You frequently insist that the things you talk about are "not a metaphor" and I never quite got it. I think I am beginning to understand. I think I've made similar comments on your other videos, but this work you are doing is vital. You are completely bypassing standard, tired apologetics and cutting right to the human soul. Fantastic stuff. I hope there are more Sacred (blank) in Secular Terms videos, because these last two are probably my favorite of the talks you have given.
No. It's a documentary that documented something. Evangelical Christian children's camps in the US. The film made no claims about religion or its validity.
A classically academic mindset is in tandem with scholarly theological viewpoints. It’s rather a myth that secular and religious studies are neck and neck or vitriolic towards the other, if not somewhat combative. In reality that’s not the case. Another point is that group-identity religious sects (of which in this video can probably be likened to those Israelites who didn’t gaze upon the the statue of the snake and thus plummeted into the earth) are in closer observation sects onto themselves. The Westboro “Baptist Church” for instance is not officially regarded as a church by the wider christian and orthodox community of basic traditional consensus. But rather than how it’s plainly stated by some religiously affiliated people, namely christians, who insist the religious world totally put forward the study of the scientific or the study of philosophy, I think it’s more correct to say that religion in the sense of the earlier church in organized effort through early monks and later scientific minds set out to preserve right human culture. At least, where or when the state was minimally involved.
Thank you for your videos, Jonathan! I began listening to you on my husband's advice. We are both Christians and theologically agree with most of what the Southern Baptist Convention teaches and we go to a Southern Baptist church. What we both struggle with, however, is the culture of anti-science biblical literalism that exists within that denomination. Your discussion of symbolism has helped me feel at peace with the other members of my church because even if I disagree with them, I at least have a framework in my head for what I believe, because you so beautifully articulate so much of what I have already been thinking! I am a bit of a nonconfrontational person so I will not likely ever actually present these thoughts aloud, but at least I can nod and smile and have my thoughts organized during such interactions! Speaking of being a Southern Baptist...I am also a musician and one thing I really mourn that my denomination lacks is the musical liturgy. There are so many beautiful rituals and unifying practices that the evangelical/protestant church threw out during the Reformation. The fact that the liturgy is practically non-existent in my church is the one that bothers me the most. I would love to hear your thoughts defending the musical liturgy as it exists in the Orthodox Church. Music itself is full of symbolism, as you probably know, and sound is one dimension of space that indicates that sacredness. Thank you again for your videos!
Jonathan, I discovered you by accident. I was raised a devout Hindu. I watched this video at 2 am and suddenly everything my family did as religious rituals made sense (!!!). I’m in awe.
Beautiful video! I recently entered the catechumen of the Orthodox Church, in no small part thanks to your videos. The concept of space and the way in which the church divides it has been especially interesting to me lately as I make the transition, so this video couldn't have come at a more appropriate time for me. God bless!
Wow! this is really really good. I'm a young architect working in Montreal and I wish you had been one of my profs at architecture school. Pointing out how there is a meaningful relationship between practices and their organization in built form really hit home. That the proper orientation of these structures has profound significance on our lives is sobering. An aspect that has complicated this, I think, has been the strengthening of the objective mode of consciousness that tends towards the homogeneous grid paradigm of space. This seems to suppresses the perception of meaning. I would be curious on your throughts on the grid and isometric space. Very big thanks for this video. I suspect I'll rewatch it soon, and I'm looking forward to checking out more of your work. Cheers
I’m an atheist, and love going to churches, cathedrals, temples. They’re calming and centering but, most of all, they’re powerful testaments to the evolution, industry and genius of human productivity and civilization.
Steve Walsh, I always tell atheists to read, and attempt to understand the Bible. It's a similar argument. People think that just because they've heard of something, and been given a representation of something, that they know what that something is. If people took the time to explain Christianity to the masses the same way pop culture personalities like Tyson and Nye attempt to explain quantum mechanics/scientism to people, more folks would have an accurate representation of Christianity. Thankfully we now have proper representatives like Jonathan, his brother, and Jordan Peterson, instead of the Wesboro Baptist Strawman and shady TV evangelists.
@Electro_blob Humanism is based on the moral ideas of Christianity and to some extent Buddhism. Our worldview is so influenced by Christianity that it's impossible to think in other terms.
Fascinating symbolism and a lot to ponder about. One thing I noticed is that the church is not only the center of space in its community. It also has a clock tower or bell tower which is used to mark time. The day is parceled out into different periods of time just as the space is separated into different areas. So the church performed both these functions, also aligned with the movement of the sun through the sky.
I already heard you talk about how the wood from the cross is, according to tradition, from the tree in the middle of Eden, but the way you brought it here absolutely floored me!
lGalaxisl : it is also the same fig tree which Jesus cursed. Therefore we preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, for the leaves of the tee were for the healing of the nations. It is the same as in the book of Revelation.. But Johnathan is awesome, is not he?
I am also sent from Jordan Peterson to check out this video. As someone who is deeply fascinated by archetypal symbolism, this video is amazing! I am eager to hear more of your thoughts!
Fantastic video as always Jonathan. The idea is so obvious and intuitive when laid out this way. How can any of this be anything but a centering of being? I wish I was able to trust the other people of the tribe enough to join with them as one. I'm also super jealous of everyone who goes to the carving class. Unfortunately I have no artistic ability, but think such an experience would be fantastic. I hope it goes better than you can imagine.
After years of study in the esoterica without fruit, one single afternoon with Johnathan, without the use of metaphor or expressly disclosing that with is hidden, the seeker is vivified and hope is restored. This speaker is a profound philosopher, creator of aesthetic art and vision, a Light of Christ, True Christian. Thank you God for Thy pillar Johnathan. Cheers Johnathan. -Kevin +edited in my name because I mean what I say, and I say, bless you, thank you.
"Thus, also in Christ, by coming out of himself, man finds himself in God, in the Son of God. It is not necessary to amputate man to explain the Incarnation; all that is required is to understand the dynamism of the human being who is fulfilled only by coming out of himself; it is in God alone that we find ourselves, our totality and our completeness. Hence, we see that the person who withdraws into himself is not a complete person but the person who is open, who comes out of himself, becomes complete and finds himself, finds his true humanity, precisely in the Son of God." BENEDICT XVI, General Audience, Wednesday, 25 June 2008 - St Maximus the Confessor
Thoroughly enjoy your talks. Like Jordan, you give understanding to the things we naturally do, without knowing how or why we do them. I especially liked your comments about the hierarchy of intimacy. It is very obvious but highly unconscious behaviour. Would you agree that Jesus turned that hierarchy upside down by bringing the most intimate space to the outer spaces? I'm not scientifically savvy, but I do think a lot about scientific things. I think you not only described 'space' well, but I think you also described 'time' equally well.Maybe I'm totally off the mark, but if you substitute 'time' in for every time you were talking about 'space', I think your interpretation would still be consistent.
Az Man I agree with you. Jesus offered this sacred intimacy to all people in all times and places. That is what the gospels talk about. His enemies did not want a man who ate with sinners and prostitutes to be the "Son of Man".
great talk. reminded me of wallace steven's great poem "Anecdote of the Jar," which begins: I placed a jar in Tennessee, And round it was, upon a hill. It made the slovenly wilderness Surround that hill.
Hey Jonathan! You've probably received many of these suggestions already but I would love to see you make a video on the movie "children of men" or even "annihilation." Thanks and keep up the awesome work!
I think this talk serves as a good introduction to the way you treat stories in your videos, but clearly also the way you view "being" in general, which you so compellingly argue is what these stories are exactly about in such and such ways. I find myself trying to imagine what you have to say about the Sacraments, which form this beautiful (or more appropriately, *mysterious* ) intersection between "story" and "being" in a sense, if you get what I mean.
Very new as recently introduced to you, very impressed. Thank you for dissecting and presenting in a way thats easy to comprehend. I do have to say this is the first i have heard of St Maximus the Confessor, but then again, i had not grown up in the Catholic church. Very interesting. I look forward to seeing your future content, thank you!
SuperNavatar Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"
SuperNavatar Leaving aside the inaccuracy of your statements, what is the reliable source for the idea that Christ wanted to us to "awaken to the psychological potential he demonstrated" rather than worship him, and where is this psychological potential demonstrated if not the Bible?
It would be all about attitude. If you tell people about your atheism that is fine, and some people will be happy to engage with you in discussion, but if you act like a jerk about it and speak with a mocking attitude, then it might be a problem.
If I did it, it would be to think more about the principles and symbols in the picture images in the liturgy. But I remember church. It's about group-think and literal understandings of deep things. I think it might be more disappointing than interesting.
Hi Jonathan Pageau, thank you for all of your content I thoroughly enjoy it! That being said what is the song that you use for your intro, I'd love to listen to the whole thing. The selection you chose is just so somber and sweet it's almost haunting.
What does it say about cities in 21st century? Rivalry for height - dominance (pride) without spiritual meaning. Instead of awe, a city landscape from a distance makes me, personally, very sad and alienated. I understand now why! Thank you Jonathan!
Lucky Coin (or just plain money) = Because I give meaning to this material object, therefor it will provide benefit. Artwork = Because I give life through my imagination and attention this will inspire my mind and awaken me to insight. Bike = Because I give life to this object with my interaction it will take me places quickly and at ease.
Jonathan, this is another talk that absolutely blew my mind. Could you do a video on Jesus and water? I have been reading the stories of Jesus my entire life, but watching your videos made me realize that there is soooooooo much more depth to the biblical stories than I had realized. It seems throughout the Euangelion that Christ is very intimately connected with Water (Calming the Storm, Walking on Water, Water into Wine, the Woman at the Well ect), and I would love in the future an exegesis on the symbolism of it.
The water symbolism can be separated into two, the water below, which is usually the image of chaos, transition, but also potential and feminine, all that. Then there is the water from heaven or living water which is akin to life, to blessing, to masculine and all that. The best example where it all comes together is in the story of the Samaritan woman.
Re: fiery serpents at 32:00 Set was the Egyptian god of chaos represented by a snake. It would support your interpretation. Then again many historians say the Exodus story has no connection with Egypt. We already know that the snake-chaos connection is widespread throughout many cultures.
Dan Rose : the historians you listen to, should broaden their research, before assumption, for the LORD sent to Moses and his people 9 plagues only. The book of Exotus are 10.
I hope Jordan Peterson embraces church-going again. I heard him say he doesn't go because the minister doesn't sound sincere, which is missing the point of worship. It sounds like he has a particular one in mind. There are in any case so many wonderful homilists to choose from.
I think Jordan Peterson is seeing the thing form a very protestant perspective. In Catholicism and, form what I understand also in the Orthodox Church, the human element is of almost irrelevant importance in liturgy. Saint Francis of Assisi used to walk several miles to make confession with the priest that had the worst reputation of the whole area, this to emphasise his refusal to mix in any way, the human element with the much more important and central, sacramental one.
veilofreality Yes, I agree. His is a Protestant perspective. As a Catholic I may enjoy a particular homilist, but I don't get too attached to him, and I don't imagine I can see into his soul. I believe the same goes for the Orthodox. Still, it seems JP is in close contact with many Catholic and Orthodox thinkers these days.
His critique was that the preachers don't know what they're talking about. They're very surface level, one dimensional speakers who fail to capture the truth in any kind of resonating/inspired fashion. No one wants to sit and be bored for an hour. Church, i.e. sitting in a building, in my mind, is mostly a waste of time and not really biblical. Where is it? Catholics have community which is more relevant but they're also very exclusive and prone to looking down their nose at other Christian groups... which is common in all churches and there's always exceptions. But ya know. It gets petty. Why bother? There's a lot more God in the world than there is in that church for an hour. Churches are not utilised properly and so should be abandoned.
Justine Brown's Bookshelf Personally, I can't hardly bring myself to church anymore because after watching both JPs, I can tell most pastors don't know what the Hell they're even talking about. However, I understand that's not all there is to church, and tbt I'm not even Christian, but I do enjoy going sometimes. After all, you can't find a cohesive, spiritual community many other places anymore in this intentionally mundane, secular world.
At 37:39 ish, man, that simple analogy with the bag proved to be kind of prescient; I was having a discussion with a (teacher) friend of mine about the proposal to make kids wear transparent bookbags to school ostensibly to prevent school shootings and she was quite adamant against it though neither of us was really able to articulate why. I think a bag being a miniature, personal logos might actually have something to do with it, and maybe we just don't want other people nosing in!
jacob ellson Check out Catholic Answers. They have whole hours where they invite atheists on for friendly debate and Catholics are only about a shade different from Orthodox. Really good stuff :)
The word of God was sent out to the world, and like God said it would not come back to him void, it moved on the Earth, the same as if he spoke it. It returned to him and now sits at his right side.
It is hard to talk about this stuff as it is so layered and woven together like a mesh, and so you have to come at it in all kind of directions, hoping that the connections will happen in people. Happy this helped.
Does the phrase in the image of God mean we look like him, or what his thoughts were, an elequent way of saying, we were created exactly what God imagined, that came alive.
God is the word as if he knows 100 trillion words) Example), we with our limited words know exactly what to say to create situations and enviornments. Have you ever felt the tension after a heated argument? Your words created that enviornment, how much more so can a supreme being speak the exact words to create an enviornment? And create the Earth as a result.
46:10 Think of how the soundscape of the countryside changed when church bells were confiscated by governments to make weapons of war. (1917 in Russia, for example). The ringing of thte bells were a daily reminder of the people's connection to something larger than themselves. That was lost.
I suppose the opposite of evil in this case would be good(..right?..), but the opposite of an atomic bomb? Hmm... **Im guessing here Atomic bomb = created by very few, with the intent to destroy many The opposite = Virtually everyone participated in _its_ manifestation, with the intention of creating and encouraging the very few.. Maybe the opposite of an atomic bomb, if there is one, can be having a child that you, your partner, family and friends will happily love and take care of. Your family and community also take part in this process as well. Others around you will instill ideals and values into your child that will not only deter him/her from destroying mankind, but maybe even other conflicted souls as well. ..just spittballing here..
The opposite of an atomic bomb is Discipleship. "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others." -2 Timothy 2:2 Teaching others is literally a chain reaction, and as long as you are leading them into Truth you are advancing the Kingdom of God.
I noticed it's more women than men that get this kind of stuff women do not have a problem being a follower of someone else's ideas whereas some men prefer to lead perhaps
if we understad EVERYTHING from the firs time that meant that we are in the heavens!:)),untill then we learn with humility that we dont know many things and need to lear and live it out what we learn so far. thats the orthodox christian perspective.+
@@opinionday0079 if it's of any consolation, I didn't get or particularly like Pageau at first. And I had been an Orthodox Christian by then. Now I understand that Peterson was just a gateway drug that led me to Pageau. Took me about 2 years. So, give it some time. Maybe come back to him later.
That was a great speech in its delivery. Its contents, however, are very debatable. There is no reason for why all these philosophical lessons you brought up should be attributed to christianity or to any other theistic system. People can and have already figured all of that out without the involvement of any higher power. Spinning these theistic metaphysical around that is just arbitrary.
That is only because you do not understand what a "higher power" means. In order for something to be a marker of identity, it has to transcend the particulars of those who participate in the identity. This hierarchy of markers, from person, to community, to nation, to human, to being itself leads one towards the Infinite as the source of all being. That is what a "higher power" means, not some arbitrary being which is more physically powerful like Superman is stronger than I am. God is the infinite to which the hierarchy of markers of identity point to.
Jonathan Pageau Well, ok. I can't say that I would describe it quite like that but it sounds more reasonable than this stereotypical nonsensical christianity you encounter normaly. Wich means, however, that some "normal" christians wich simply have their naive beliefs (e.g. that heaven and hell are real places you go to after you die or that god really created the earth and humanity in 7 days or that christ really died for our sins) would maybe disaggree with you because they regard your philosophy as beeing too vague and too spongy. And it kinda is, isn't it? You deal in a lot of interpretations and uncertainties, you see the stories in the bible more as metaphores wich convey some higher meaning rather than taking the straightforward approach where you'd just read these stories and accept them as they're written. The question would be then: Are you still a christian really? Do you really believe in god when you don't even think of him as a scentient entity but more as the "infinite" or, (what I assume) kinda the "fabric" our universe consists of?
Dude, you obviously know nothing about Christianity. If I ask the common person on the street to explain to me how my television screen works, does that prevent it from working because they have some naive understanding of the television? Christianity is not a mental game but a path to be walked upon.
Nusm4, It seems unfortunate that a lot of modern religious views are wrapped up in materialistic interpretations (i.e. the talking snake). I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suspect a lot of this has to do with how science has shaped the manner of thinking of modern people towards focusing on physical ‘specimens’. There’s a really good video on this channel that sorts out how ancient people used to use certain words compared to how they are used today. ruclips.net/video/Q1-vG-bLDwE/видео.html&t=1013 Such factors would have to be absolutely critical for interpreting intended meaning of old stories. It’s the same reason why most people would not be confused today when hearing two black people call each other the N-word as friends. In other words, context matters. And one cannot understand a story’s context if one is to, as you said, “…just read these stories and accept them as they’re written.” People did not speak the same way back then the way we do today. Also, at least in the way i’m understanding these views, to ask if one really believes in God if they don’t think of him as a sentient entity is akin to asking, “Do you really believe in a Center of Gravity if you don’t even think of it as a touchable & textured thing with a particular color, a particular shape, maybe even a particular smell.” Center of Gravity is a powerful concept that when leveraged in certain domains, like engineering, produces powerful results. Once could argue Christianity does the same for the quality of people’s lives. I would counter your question with this one, “Does the fact that we humans do not have a physical specimen to relegate to being THE ‘Center of Gravity’ of any one particular object make it any less real?” What is the ‘physical specimen’ for the center of gravity of a 2004 Toyota Corolla? Is it the drive-shaft? Let’s pull out the drive-shaft. Is it still the drive shaft or does the car now have a different ‘CoG’ that is seperate from the ‘CoG’ the drive-shaft has? You’ll never manage to pin it down to one material subset. What’s the weight, in lbs, of our archived fossil of E=mc^2? I wonder what type of wood Pi is made out of. The point, from what I can make of it, is that under this definition of God the question of sentience is irrelevant or at least inapplicable as it's rooted in a biological phenomenon (not a cosmological one).
It is dismaying to find that men must suffer so frequently from spiritual and psychological weakness. He is disposed, it seems, to stumble backwards towards the easy decrees of religion, and away from hard earned wisdom of rationality. I say to an Atheist that our moral landscape is an ever expanding vista, moving us forwards into new environments that will take us by surprise and challenge us to our marrow. The weakness of religious dogma is in its intransigence. Immutable doctrines cannot aid us as we sweep at full pace into a future full of new moral paradigms; those of artificial intelligence and man's place in this new technological domain. Religion has nothing to say about what humanity is yet to face -- we must be the architects of our own morality. Judeo-Christian ethics was a foundation on which to build our Western civilization, it must not be erased, forgotten or ignored. But we have made great leaps forward since the times of heresy and blasphemy -- it is a fool who forgets what the world looked like when Christianity held the keys to the gates of power. Religion is to be studied, appreciated, to be taken forward as a thread, linking us to our past. But it cannot come with us wholesale. A thing that cannot change is totalitarian in nature. No matter how alluring it may seem, especially to one who feels alone and without roots under his feet, it must be rejected as a source of complete truth or morality. To the lost soul I offer this little advice: It is not religion that will root you into reality, but family. As a new father, I can profess the power of this spiritual crystallization. The power of love for an infant will ground you more deeply than any ideology can. It will be your cross to carry up those ever steepening hills. And it will be the light that guides you when darkness looms.
You've proven that it is crucial to know what you're organizing yourself around. I wouldn't go to a church and centre myself around a torture device. I'd also be careful of organizing myself around a white image of Jesus - since Jesus wasn't white, that inherently talks towards racial supremacy (if he actually were white this would be fine, but it makes as much sense as making Jesus a woman - it's clearly a superiority statement if someone did that). When I look at the masses, I generally find that people have organized themselves around ridiculous things like malls as you mentioned in another talk. I am skeptical to submit myself to anyone else's symbols and focal points. That said, I find small communities I trust and I am willing to organize myself with - with the common symbols and focal points being 'the Path' & 'Self-inquiry'. If I were Christian, I'd rather choose the dove, fish, rolled-away stone, etc... rather than the cross.
Didn't like this. I have no idea what he means by God and logos. Does he mean them the way jordan Does? No idea. Then him saying he had beef with science..... Yeah no. Not interested in this guy or his thoughts.
I am currently reconsidering religion, that I thought, from my teenager years, was nonsense.
It's no nonsense at all.
Me too.
Try going to an Orthodox Church and understand the theology, it’s mind blowing stuff.
I was an atheist for about 3 years, and thanks to jbp and Jonathan I am no longer. Still a little lost but in a good way
dil not all who wander are lost ;-)
Same boat
You frequently insist that the things you talk about are "not a metaphor" and I never quite got it. I think I am beginning to understand.
I think I've made similar comments on your other videos, but this work you are doing is vital. You are completely bypassing standard, tired apologetics and cutting right to the human soul. Fantastic stuff. I hope there are more Sacred (blank) in Secular Terms videos, because these last two are probably my favorite of the talks you have given.
I am focused on the same thing right now, with how these symbols are actually not metaphors. I also think this video is starting to clarify it for me
I'm finding it harder and harder to not call myself a Christian. Crazy
Hah, same here. But then I look at the documentary "Jesus Camp" and then it becomes difficult again...
Yeaown haha yeah I wanted to join the army when I was twenty but then I watched Hanna Barbera's "Laverne and Shirley Join the Army". What a fool I was
LogosofHeaven it is a strawman in video form.
No. It's a documentary that documented something. Evangelical Christian children's camps in the US. The film made no claims about religion or its validity.
A classically academic mindset is in tandem with scholarly theological viewpoints. It’s rather a myth that secular and religious studies are neck and neck or vitriolic towards the other, if not somewhat combative. In reality that’s not the case.
Another point is that group-identity religious sects (of which in this video can probably be likened to those Israelites who didn’t gaze upon the the statue of the snake and thus plummeted into the earth) are in closer observation sects onto themselves. The Westboro “Baptist Church” for instance is not officially regarded as a church by the wider christian and orthodox community of basic traditional consensus.
But rather than how it’s plainly stated by some religiously affiliated people, namely christians, who insist the religious world totally put forward the study of the scientific or the study of philosophy, I think it’s more correct to say that religion in the sense of the earlier church in organized effort through early monks and later scientific minds set out to preserve right human culture. At least, where or when the state was minimally involved.
Thank you for your videos, Jonathan!
I began listening to you on my husband's advice. We are both Christians and theologically agree with most of what the Southern Baptist Convention teaches and we go to a Southern Baptist church. What we both struggle with, however, is the culture of anti-science biblical literalism that exists within that denomination. Your discussion of symbolism has helped me feel at peace with the other members of my church because even if I disagree with them, I at least have a framework in my head for what I believe, because you so beautifully articulate so much of what I have already been thinking! I am a bit of a nonconfrontational person so I will not likely ever actually present these thoughts aloud, but at least I can nod and smile and have my thoughts organized during such interactions!
Speaking of being a Southern Baptist...I am also a musician and one thing I really mourn that my denomination lacks is the musical liturgy. There are so many beautiful rituals and unifying practices that the evangelical/protestant church threw out during the Reformation. The fact that the liturgy is practically non-existent in my church is the one that bothers me the most. I would love to hear your thoughts defending the musical liturgy as it exists in the Orthodox Church. Music itself is full of symbolism, as you probably know, and sound is one dimension of space that indicates that sacredness.
Thank you again for your videos!
Jonathan, I discovered you by accident. I was raised a devout Hindu. I watched this video at 2 am and suddenly everything my family did as religious rituals made sense (!!!). I’m in awe.
I always look forward to your videos. You’ve made my night... and it’s totally worth losing a bit of sleep. Keep up the good work.
Yeah, I should probably be sleeping as well. Hope you enjoy it.
Beautiful video! I recently entered the catechumen of the Orthodox Church, in no small part thanks to your videos. The concept of space and the way in which the church divides it has been especially interesting to me lately as I make the transition, so this video couldn't have come at a more appropriate time for me. God bless!
All the best on your journey. Have a blessed holy week.
Wow! this is really really good. I'm a young architect working in Montreal and I wish you had been one of my profs at architecture school. Pointing out how there is a meaningful relationship between practices and their organization in built form really hit home. That the proper orientation of these structures has profound significance on our lives is sobering. An aspect that has complicated this, I think, has been the strengthening of the objective mode of consciousness that tends towards the homogeneous grid paradigm of space. This seems to suppresses the perception of meaning. I would be curious on your throughts on the grid and isometric space. Very big thanks for this video. I suspect I'll rewatch it soon, and I'm looking forward to checking out more of your work. Cheers
Also architect, totally agree.
I’m an atheist, and love going to churches, cathedrals, temples.
They’re calming and centering but, most of all, they’re powerful testaments to the evolution, industry and genius of human productivity and civilization.
I always tell atheists to read, and attempt to understand quantum mechanics. It's hard to be anything other than agnostic once you have.
Steve Walsh, I always tell atheists to read, and attempt to understand the Bible. It's a similar argument. People think that just because they've heard of something, and been given a representation of something, that they know what that something is.
If people took the time to explain Christianity to the masses the same way pop culture personalities like Tyson and Nye attempt to explain quantum mechanics/scientism to people, more folks would have an accurate representation of Christianity. Thankfully we now have proper representatives like Jonathan, his brother, and Jordan Peterson, instead of the Wesboro Baptist Strawman and shady TV evangelists.
So you go to church to worship and praise man for the genius given to them by the Creator. Interesting.
I think you found your religion. Humanism.
I Stan Everett.
@Electro_blob Humanism is based on the moral ideas of Christianity and to some extent Buddhism. Our worldview is so influenced by Christianity that it's impossible to think in other terms.
Fascinating symbolism and a lot to ponder about. One thing I noticed is that the church is not only the center of space in its community. It also has a clock tower or bell tower which is used to mark time. The day is parceled out into different periods of time just as the space is separated into different areas. So the church performed both these functions, also aligned with the movement of the sun through the sky.
Will you go on tour with Dr Peterson? The world needs you!!
I already heard you talk about how the wood from the cross is, according to tradition, from the tree in the middle of Eden, but the way you brought it here absolutely floored me!
lGalaxisl : it is also the same fig tree which Jesus cursed. Therefore we preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, for the leaves of the tee were for the healing of the nations. It is the same as in the book of Revelation.. But Johnathan is awesome, is not he?
Thanks for the great content Jonathan. God bless and have mercy!
I am also sent from Jordan Peterson to check out this video. As someone who is deeply fascinated by archetypal symbolism, this video is amazing! I am eager to hear more of your thoughts!
Fantastic video as always Jonathan. The idea is so obvious and intuitive when laid out this way. How can any of this be anything but a centering of being? I wish I was able to trust the other people of the tribe enough to join with them as one.
I'm also super jealous of everyone who goes to the carving class. Unfortunately I have no artistic ability, but think such an experience would be fantastic. I hope it goes better than you can imagine.
After years of study in the esoterica without fruit, one single afternoon with Johnathan, without the use of metaphor or expressly disclosing that with is hidden, the seeker is vivified and hope is restored.
This speaker is a profound philosopher, creator of aesthetic art and vision, a Light of Christ, True Christian.
Thank you God for Thy pillar Johnathan.
Cheers Johnathan.
-Kevin +edited in my name because I mean what I say, and I say, bless you, thank you.
This reminded me so much of Christopher Alexander and his "intimacy gradient" in A Pattern Language. Thanks for sharing!.
"Thus, also in Christ, by coming out of himself, man finds himself in God, in the Son of God. It is not necessary to amputate man to explain the Incarnation; all that is required is to understand the dynamism of the human being who is fulfilled only by coming out of himself; it is in God alone that we find ourselves, our totality and our completeness. Hence, we see that the person who withdraws into himself is not a complete person but the person who is open, who comes out of himself, becomes complete and finds himself, finds his true humanity, precisely in the Son of God."
BENEDICT XVI, General Audience, Wednesday, 25 June 2008 - St Maximus the Confessor
Thoroughly enjoy your talks. Like Jordan, you give understanding to the things we naturally do, without knowing how or why we do them.
I especially liked your comments about the hierarchy of intimacy. It is very obvious but highly unconscious behaviour. Would you agree that Jesus turned that hierarchy upside down by bringing the most intimate space to the outer spaces?
I'm not scientifically savvy, but I do think a lot about scientific things. I think you not only described 'space' well, but I think you also described 'time' equally well.Maybe I'm totally off the mark, but if you substitute 'time' in for every time you were talking about 'space', I think your interpretation would still be consistent.
Az Man I agree with you. Jesus offered this sacred intimacy to all people in all times and places. That is what the gospels talk about. His enemies did not want a man who ate with sinners and prostitutes to be the "Son of Man".
great talk. reminded me of wallace steven's great poem "Anecdote of the Jar," which begins:
I placed a jar in Tennessee,
And round it was, upon a hill.
It made the slovenly wilderness
Surround that hill.
Great connection.
Hey Jonathan! You've probably received many of these suggestions already but I would love to see you make a video on the movie "children of men" or even "annihilation." Thanks and keep up the awesome work!
Wonderful talk, and interesting how you released it during Holy Week
This stuff is eye opening. I hope you can upload more discussions with your brother soon as well.
That event was great, thanks for being there and contributing
I think this talk serves as a good introduction to the way you treat stories in your videos, but clearly also the way you view "being" in general, which you so compellingly argue is what these stories are exactly about in such and such ways.
I find myself trying to imagine what you have to say about the Sacraments, which form this beautiful (or more appropriately, *mysterious* ) intersection between "story" and "being" in a sense, if you get what I mean.
Very new as recently introduced to you, very impressed. Thank you for dissecting and presenting in a way thats easy to comprehend.
I do have to say this is the first i have heard of St Maximus the Confessor, but then again, i had not grown up in the Catholic church.
Very interesting. I look forward to seeing your future content, thank you!
You are a magnetic speaker, Jonathan Pageau. I would go to your church..
I love your talks! Glory to Jesus Christ!
SuperNavatar Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"
SuperNavatar Leaving aside the inaccuracy of your statements, what is the reliable source for the idea that Christ wanted to us to "awaken to the psychological potential he demonstrated" rather than worship him, and where is this psychological potential demonstrated if not the Bible?
THANK YOU JONATHAN
Me being an atheist + me going to church + me telling the truth = an interesting situation
It would be all about attitude. If you tell people about your atheism that is fine, and some people will be happy to engage with you in discussion, but if you act like a jerk about it and speak with a mocking attitude, then it might be a problem.
If I did it, it would be to think more about the principles and symbols in the picture images in the liturgy. But I remember church. It's about group-think and literal understandings of deep things. I think it might be more disappointing than interesting.
Brendan Tannam yeah my guess is that it’ll be disappointing.
Joshua Emrich thanks for putting me in my place lol here I am thinking it’s gonna cause any sort of drama, pretty narcissistic of me
Joshua Emrich how about tribalistic, shallow, uninspiring, inauthentic and unintelligent.
Awesome Easter present for this lapsed Catholic 😎
Very powerful Jonathan. Gave me quite a bit to chew on. "Not a metaphor".
Does anybody know what/where the church is that he has in the thumbnail of the video?
Holy crap! This was incredible.
You should put these on iTunes in podcast form
Hopefully that will be happening soon.
This truth is so appealing, clears my perspective after going thru social media lol.
Can anyone link to where Jordan is taking about going to church?
Hi Jonathan Pageau, thank you for all of your content I thoroughly enjoy it! That being said what is the song that you use for your intro, I'd love to listen to the whole thing. The selection you chose is just so somber and sweet it's almost haunting.
Great content as always!
What does it say about cities in 21st century? Rivalry for height - dominance (pride) without spiritual meaning.
Instead of awe, a city landscape from a distance makes me, personally, very sad and alienated. I understand now why! Thank you Jonathan!
Lucky Coin (or just plain money) = Because I give meaning to this material object, therefor it will provide benefit.
Artwork = Because I give life through my imagination and attention this will inspire my mind and awaken me to insight.
Bike = Because I give life to this object with my interaction it will take me places quickly and at ease.
Sent from professor Jordan Peterson
Jonathan, this is another talk that absolutely blew my mind. Could you do a video on Jesus and water? I have been reading the stories of Jesus my entire life, but watching your videos made me realize that there is soooooooo much more depth to the biblical stories than I had realized.
It seems throughout the Euangelion that Christ is very intimately connected with Water (Calming the Storm, Walking on Water, Water into Wine, the Woman at the Well ect), and I would love in the future an exegesis on the symbolism of it.
The water symbolism can be separated into two, the water below, which is usually the image of chaos, transition, but also potential and feminine, all that. Then there is the water from heaven or living water which is akin to life, to blessing, to masculine and all that. The best example where it all comes together is in the story of the Samaritan woman.
So what you're saying is that when Christ walks on water, he is establishing the Patriarchy and normalizing the masculine trampling on the feminine.
Eric LeFevre :)
@@ericlefevre7741 Pffft..you've got it completely wrong. Erase your politically prejudiced mindset and try again
Amazing, as always.
Re: fiery serpents at 32:00
Set was the Egyptian god of chaos represented by a snake. It would support your interpretation.
Then again many historians say the Exodus story has no connection with Egypt. We already know that the snake-chaos connection is widespread throughout many cultures.
Dan Rose : the historians you listen to, should broaden their research, before assumption, for the LORD sent to Moses and his people 9 plagues only. The book of Exotus are 10.
Where can we find out about these talks ahead of time? I'd have gone to South Carolina to see you.
For now if you follow me on facebook or twitter, I announce all of these. Soon I will have a website that will have updated schedules.
Recommended reading would be The Sacred and the Profane and Myth of the Eternal Return by Mircea Eliade about the axis mundi.
Got it
You look tired. Hope you get enough rest. God bless you.
Consciousness is finely tuned to the universe. Intuitively.
Beautiful
Excellent!
I hope Jordan Peterson embraces church-going again. I heard him say he doesn't go because the minister doesn't sound sincere, which is missing the point of worship. It sounds like he has a particular one in mind. There are in any case so many wonderful homilists to choose from.
I think Jordan Peterson is seeing the thing form a very protestant perspective. In Catholicism and, form what I understand also in the Orthodox Church, the human element is of almost irrelevant importance in liturgy. Saint Francis of Assisi used to walk several miles to make confession with the priest that had the worst reputation of the whole area, this to emphasise his refusal to mix in any way, the human element with the much more important and central, sacramental one.
veilofreality Yes, I agree. His is a Protestant perspective. As a Catholic I may enjoy a particular homilist, but I don't get too attached to him, and I
don't imagine I can see into his soul. I believe the same goes for the Orthodox. Still, it seems JP is in close contact with many Catholic and Orthodox thinkers these days.
His critique was that the preachers don't know what they're talking about. They're very surface level, one dimensional speakers who fail to capture the truth in any kind of resonating/inspired fashion. No one wants to sit and be bored for an hour. Church, i.e. sitting in a building, in my mind, is mostly a waste of time and not really biblical. Where is it? Catholics have community which is more relevant but they're also very exclusive and prone to looking down their nose at other Christian groups... which is common in all churches and there's always exceptions. But ya know. It gets petty. Why bother? There's a lot more God in the world than there is in that church for an hour. Churches are not utilised properly and so should be abandoned.
Justine Brown's Bookshelf Personally, I can't hardly bring myself to church anymore because after watching both JPs, I can tell most pastors don't know what the Hell they're even talking about. However, I understand that's not all there is to church, and tbt I'm not even Christian, but I do enjoy going sometimes. After all, you can't find a cohesive, spiritual community many other places anymore in this intentionally mundane, secular world.
Just a suggestion, try a church that calls its pastors priests.
Gets really good at about 29:20 (ish) mark.
Thank you.
Nice crescendo at the end.
At 37:39 ish, man, that simple analogy with the bag proved to be kind of prescient; I was having a discussion with a (teacher) friend of mine about the proposal to make kids wear transparent bookbags to school ostensibly to prevent school shootings and she was quite adamant against it though neither of us was really able to articulate why. I think a bag being a miniature, personal logos might actually have something to do with it, and maybe we just don't want other people nosing in!
Please keep creating videos. I need you to help make my arguments to the secular perspective. Lol
jacob ellson Check out Catholic Answers. They have whole hours where they invite atheists on for friendly debate and Catholics are only about a shade different from Orthodox. Really good stuff :)
Thankyou. :) god bless you on your journey.
This opened my eyes to how Christ is implicit throughout the old testament.
Mind-blowing 👍
Amazing!
The word of God was sent out to the world, and like God said it would not come back to him void, it moved on the Earth, the same as if he spoke it. It returned to him and now sits at his right side.
after quiting church for two years, I think I need to go back
Wow great job thank you
This video made your tree video make 100x more sense
It is hard to talk about this stuff as it is so layered and woven together like a mesh, and so you have to come at it in all kind of directions, hoping that the connections will happen in people. Happy this helped.
Jonathan Pageau My experience at orthodox church helps lots too! Recently converted.
Great to hear that. All the best on your journey.
Does the phrase in the image of God mean we look like him, or what his thoughts were, an elequent way of saying, we were created exactly what God imagined, that came alive.
Christian DeBerry . That we are created in the image and likeness of God.
Christian DeBerry : we all have wishes, don't we ?
God is the word as if he knows 100 trillion words) Example), we with our limited words know exactly what to say to create situations and enviornments. Have you ever felt the tension after a heated argument? Your words created that enviornment, how much more so can a supreme being speak the exact words to create an enviornment? And create the Earth as a result.
Awesomeness :)
46:10 Think of how the soundscape of the countryside changed when church bells were confiscated by governments to make weapons of war. (1917 in Russia, for example). The ringing of thte bells were a daily reminder of the people's connection to something larger than themselves. That was lost.
If ever I lose Faith, it's for this question: I know what the opposite of evil is, but what is the opposite of an atomic bomb?
I suppose the opposite of evil in this case would be good(..right?..), but the opposite of an atomic bomb?
Hmm... **Im guessing here
Atomic bomb = created by very few, with the intent to destroy many
The opposite = Virtually everyone participated in _its_ manifestation, with the intention of creating and encouraging the very few..
Maybe the opposite of an atomic bomb, if there is one, can be having a child that you, your partner, family and friends will happily love and take care of. Your family and community also take part in this process as well. Others around you will instill ideals and values into your child that will not only deter him/her from destroying mankind, but maybe even other conflicted souls as well.
..just spittballing here..
The opposite of an atomic bomb is Discipleship.
"And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others." -2 Timothy 2:2
Teaching others is literally a chain reaction, and as long as you are leading them into Truth you are advancing the Kingdom of God.
kingdom of heaven
Jonathan, Jonathan .... if there is ever a time to be wearing your wedding ring -- it's in public when everyone's attention is directed at you. :-)
He never wears it, to this day. It's a bit confusing, considering the symbolism/what it communicates
......so you’re saying?
...that we should all use stones for pillows?
Jonathan Pageau ............so what you’re saying is?
the four directions lead back to Jacob's head
"markers of place", i.e. references
🙏🏽🌿🍂
❤
Honestly I don't care about the behind the scenes stuff, you should cut out the first 1:40 of this video
there's no right or wrong, only understanding
♥️✝️♥️
The church is secondary to the Truth.
+
I noticed it's more women than men that get this kind of stuff women do not have a problem being a follower of someone else's ideas whereas some men prefer to lead perhaps
nonsense... will the real JP please manifest himself?
sadly although I get Peterson and like his book ,I don't get this guy at all.Nothing here to inspire or motivate me in the day to day life.
not all of us operate on the same level(nothing wrong with that) just remeber that peterson describe johanatan as touch by the Genius...so..:)))
Sure, It upset me that I couldn't understand.
if we understad EVERYTHING from the firs time that meant that we are in the heavens!:)),untill then we learn with humility that we dont know many things and need to lear and live it out what we learn so far. thats the orthodox christian perspective.+
@@opinionday0079 if it's of any consolation, I didn't get or particularly like Pageau at first. And I had been an Orthodox Christian by then. Now I understand that Peterson was just a gateway drug that led me to Pageau. Took me about 2 years. So, give it some time. Maybe come back to him later.
That was a great speech in its delivery. Its contents, however, are very debatable. There is no reason for why all these philosophical lessons you brought up should be attributed to christianity or to any other theistic system. People can and have already figured all of that out without the involvement of any higher power. Spinning these theistic metaphysical around that is just arbitrary.
That is only because you do not understand what a "higher power" means. In order for something to be a marker of identity, it has to transcend the particulars of those who participate in the identity. This hierarchy of markers, from person, to community, to nation, to human, to being itself leads one towards the Infinite as the source of all being. That is what a "higher power" means, not some arbitrary being which is more physically powerful like Superman is stronger than I am. God is the infinite to which the hierarchy of markers of identity point to.
Jonathan Pageau Well, ok. I can't say that I would describe it quite like that but it sounds more reasonable than this stereotypical nonsensical christianity you encounter normaly.
Wich means, however, that some "normal" christians wich simply have their naive beliefs (e.g. that heaven and hell are real places you go to after you die or that god really created the earth and humanity in 7 days or that christ really died for our sins) would maybe disaggree with you because they regard your philosophy as beeing too vague and too spongy. And it kinda is, isn't it? You deal in a lot of interpretations and uncertainties, you see the stories in the bible more as metaphores wich convey some higher meaning rather than taking the straightforward approach where you'd just read these stories and accept them as they're written. The question would be then: Are you still a christian really? Do you really believe in god when you don't even think of him as a scentient entity but more as the "infinite" or, (what I assume) kinda the "fabric" our universe consists of?
This nusm guy simply didn't understand anything.
Dude, you obviously know nothing about Christianity. If I ask the common person on the street to explain to me how my television screen works, does that prevent it from working because they have some naive understanding of the television? Christianity is not a mental game but a path to be walked upon.
Nusm4, It seems unfortunate that a lot of modern religious views are wrapped up in materialistic interpretations (i.e. the talking snake). I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suspect a lot of this has to do with how science has shaped the manner of thinking of modern people towards focusing on physical ‘specimens’. There’s a really good video on this channel that sorts out how ancient people used to use certain words compared to how they are used today. ruclips.net/video/Q1-vG-bLDwE/видео.html&t=1013
Such factors would have to be absolutely critical for interpreting intended meaning of old stories. It’s the same reason why most people would not be confused today when hearing two black people call each other the N-word as friends. In other words, context matters. And one cannot understand a story’s context if one is to, as you said, “…just read these stories and accept them as they’re written.” People did not speak the same way back then the way we do today.
Also, at least in the way i’m understanding these views, to ask if one really believes in God if they don’t think of him as a sentient entity is akin to asking, “Do you really believe in a Center of Gravity if you don’t even think of it as a touchable & textured thing with a particular color, a particular shape, maybe even a particular smell.” Center of Gravity is a powerful concept that when leveraged in certain domains, like engineering, produces powerful results. Once could argue Christianity does the same for the quality of people’s lives. I would counter your question with this one, “Does the fact that we humans do not have a physical specimen to relegate to being THE ‘Center of Gravity’ of any one particular object make it any less real?”
What is the ‘physical specimen’ for the center of gravity of a 2004 Toyota Corolla? Is it the drive-shaft? Let’s pull out the drive-shaft. Is it still the drive shaft or does the car now have a different ‘CoG’ that is seperate from the ‘CoG’ the drive-shaft has? You’ll never manage to pin it down to one material subset. What’s the weight, in lbs, of our archived fossil of E=mc^2? I wonder what type of wood Pi is made out of. The point, from what I can make of it, is that under this definition of God the question of sentience is irrelevant or at least inapplicable as it's rooted in a biological phenomenon (not a cosmological one).
It is dismaying to find that men must suffer so frequently from spiritual and psychological weakness. He is disposed, it seems, to stumble backwards towards the easy decrees of religion, and away from hard earned wisdom of rationality.
I say to an Atheist that our moral landscape is an ever expanding vista, moving us forwards into new environments that will take us by surprise and challenge us to our marrow. The weakness of religious dogma is in its intransigence. Immutable doctrines cannot aid us as we sweep at full pace into a future full of new moral paradigms; those of artificial intelligence and man's place in this new technological domain. Religion has nothing to say about what humanity is yet to face -- we must be the architects of our own morality.
Judeo-Christian ethics was a foundation on which to build our Western civilization, it must not be erased, forgotten or ignored. But we have made great leaps forward since the times of heresy and blasphemy -- it is a fool who forgets what the world looked like when Christianity held the keys to the gates of power.
Religion is to be studied, appreciated, to be taken forward as a thread, linking us to our past. But it cannot come with us wholesale. A thing that cannot change is totalitarian in nature. No matter how alluring it may seem, especially to one who feels alone and without roots under his feet, it must be rejected as a source of complete truth or morality.
To the lost soul I offer this little advice: It is not religion that will root you into reality, but family. As a new father, I can profess the power of this spiritual crystallization. The power of love for an infant will ground you more deeply than any ideology can. It will be your cross to carry up those ever steepening hills. And it will be the light that guides you when darkness looms.
So you're saying hail Satan?
You've proven that it is crucial to know what you're organizing yourself around. I wouldn't go to a church and centre myself around a torture device. I'd also be careful of organizing myself around a white image of Jesus - since Jesus wasn't white, that inherently talks towards racial supremacy (if he actually were white this would be fine, but it makes as much sense as making Jesus a woman - it's clearly a superiority statement if someone did that).
When I look at the masses, I generally find that people have organized themselves around ridiculous things like malls as you mentioned in another talk. I am skeptical to submit myself to anyone else's symbols and focal points. That said, I find small communities I trust and I am willing to organize myself with - with the common symbols and focal points being 'the Path' & 'Self-inquiry'.
If I were Christian, I'd rather choose the dove, fish, rolled-away stone, etc... rather than the cross.
I'm afraid you don't understand what was fulfilled on that Cross if you think it's a shameful symbol.
Didn't like this. I have no idea what he means by God and logos. Does he mean them the way jordan Does? No idea. Then him saying he had beef with science..... Yeah no. Not interested in this guy or his thoughts.
..which is due to your own small-mindedness