On the brink of Brexit: The United Kingdom, Ireland, and Europe
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- Опубликовано: 23 окт 2018
- On October 23, 2018, the Center on the United States and Europe at Brookings hosted a panel discussion on the Brexit endgame.
www.brookings.edu/events/on-t... (transcript available)
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English people talking about the UK and Europe as if the UK is not in Europe...makes obvious why England never wanted the EU...
We are leaving the EU, and we are just outside of the European continent. Britain is a global melting pot. not a european one. the British do not feel European.
@@boptah7489 We're not European we're British.
The EU is not Europe. The EU is a political construct that controls just 27 regions (ex countries) in Europe.
Exactly. We don't want to be in the EU. Hence we voted to leave the EU. Whether others want to is none of our business so the EU existing is not an issue (your last point reads that England never wanted the EU to exist, is that what you meant?).
We are big enough and ugly enough to be a sovereign country. Rather than Italy having their budget vetoed by the EU.
EU started as the northern continent countries like Belgium and Holland being friends with France and Germany because every other Tuesday each street changes what country it belongs to anyway. Germany wanted the union as it was scared of Germany. France wanted the union as it was scared of Germany. So there was a group of very similar northern countries. Then the southern ones joined because they are paid to. Germany subsidises Portugal.
We aren't scared of Germany. We are net contributors.
Democracy isn't about voting for who you want. It is about voting out those you don't. Whether we can take VAT off the gas bills of OAPs or off tampons isn't our choice. Poland and Slovenia can out vote us. So if 100% of the UK citizens wanted X. Where X happens / applies just in the UK. We can't. That isn't a sovereign country.
The UK waking up to the fact that this is not the 50's and thus the UK is not the superpower it used to be...this means the UK does not have the power to get what they want because the EU is not a colony...the difficulty is for the UK to accept it...
Nice to listen to an informed discussion without promises of unicorns.
No Brexiteer promised unicorns.
@@dickmartino9933 They promised all kind of unicorns, the promise was the UK could keep all benefits for free (a lie), we can have our cake and eat it (a lie), easiest deal in human history (a lie), global Britain would mean everyone will be better of from day one. Brexit would bring money, but it costs already 500 million a week.
@@dickmartino9933
It's called speaking figuratively, Dick. We all know what it means: Brexiteers have promised plenty of undeliverable fantasy outcomes that are equivalent to the mythical unicorn.
@@TorianTammas I would wait until AFTER we have left before making false claims. You are assuming that the deal on the table is the one we will get. I can tell you. The chequers deal will be stopped by either parliament or Brexiteers.
the deal is in reality very easy. but we have a traitor remainer PM. Who is openly colluding with the EU to keep us tied to it. She is not actually negotiating anything. she is capitulating to a pre planned deal. But she will be stopped.
@@boptah7489 The promised unicorns are a fact, "easiest trade deal in human history", "having our cake and eat it", "they need us more then we need them" so we get all for free, " the prosecco producer and car maker will force the European PMs to give the UK a good deal", the promise that in global Britain everyone would be better off. The promises were so many and I said that it is nice to listen to a discussion without such overused promises.
FUKEW (Former United Kingdom England and Wales) nice!
The U.K single market and its nations are far more important to the people than any trade deal with the E.U.
John Msx Cymru am byth.
This is like an Bush; 'On Fire witha The Light Of Freedom'!!
But Only1 Person" See's The Light is and he is Decorated in Blue!
Sums it all up really, and they only have themselves to blame
The question from the man from Northern Ireland was welcome. From the start, the response to the outcome of the vote should have been a statement from the start from the UK and the EU to say that the end point of our discussions will be that the border will remain open, we will protect the peace process, and deal with the concerns of Irish-EU citizens living in Northern Ireland. Having determined the end point, we now need to work tirelessly to find the route to that end point. Instead we have had the equivalent of a tug of war played out in public that has only increased divisions in Northern Ireland, and upset the very delicate eco-system. Sadly the American woman's assessment is very accurate.
Some years back I mentioned the plantation of Ulster to a group of English humanities MA students and their lecturer, also English. I was surprised - not only did they not know about the plantation of Ulster, but they'd not heard the term. A large part of Ulster is currently within the UK, with British passports, using the pound, with the queen as head of state ... why is it people in Great Britain, but particularly in England seem to know SO little about it? Without seeking it out, I have had this experience repeatedly - intelligent, open minded ostensibly well educated English people who seem to know next to nothing about English, and later British involvement in Northern Ireland. Nothing about say Cromwell in Ulster, or the details of 1922 or gerrymandering in the six counties (I remember a northern Irish lecturer having to explain this word to the mostly English students circa 1996 (!)). Is the English and British presence and involvement in Ireland ever taught in British schools? The French and German political class seem to be much more informed about say the Good Friday agreement than the British political class for example! Is it the same with the British, French and German publics? , BBC commentators in the 80's either were, or affected to be, terribly perplexed by Northern Ireland - as if just landed in the middle of a wildly far flung country where it was all new to them - as opposed to a territory next door they'd been in for centuries. Has much changed? All of this current apparent bewilderment at the complicated delicate intractability of borders and Northern Ireland (!) shows an utter lack of awareness/disregard for historical context.
I don't know why people in Ireland seem to think everyone in England should be knowledgeable about Irish history. How much do Irish people know about English history other than what overlaps with their own? I would imagine quite a few Irish people have never heard of the magna carta or the hanovarian succession. English people are taught English history in schools rather than Irish history because they are in England in the same way that Irish schools teach Irish history rather than English history because they are not in England. Maybe that answers your question.
@jonoessex
English students need to learn about all that happened during the colonial adventures.
If they are taught the truth about the atrocities that were committed by British imperialism , they may understand why quite a few in the world don’t see them in a very favorable light .
That may answer your question of why the teaching of history in English schools is severely censored.
The truth must not come out .
@@Dannydantimpat You have responded to my point by completely ignoring it and making up things I didn't say. I will repeat the point. People know little about Irish history in England because they are taught English history in school rather than Irish history. This is not Censorship it's just normal and natural. French people learn French History in their schools, Spanish people learn Spanish history, Americans learn American history in schools and so on.
My answer to your point is to say that this is the reason for the lack of knowledge of the aforementioned subject not political censorship of History in English schools. I don't believe there is any.
@jonoessex
So , are English school children taught about the English civil wars and are they thought about Oliver Cromwell and his massacres in Ireland .
Are they thought about the massacres committed by the Black and Tans and the
cold-blooded murders by the
para troops in Derry .
I know for a fact that they aren’t and are only thought about how great the English empire was , but nothing about the atrocities carried out during their colonial exploits .
I don't know what's in the history Curriculum in English schools and neither do you. I'm sure colonial atrocities are taught. It would be impossible to teach the history of say British India without mentioning the Amritsar massacre or the imprisonment of Gandhi etc.
As I've already said events like the Anglo-Irish war, the Cromwellian invasion are far less central to our history than yours which is the reason they may not be taught in school and may not be widely known in Britain. Fairly recently a BBC series on the history of Ireland was broadcast on British television and it included episodes about the Black and Tans and Cromwellian invasion so there is no attempt in Britain to hide this from people. You have no evidence to back up your claims.
I don't understand any of this. The EU has totally dismissed the Chequers deal.
the EU wants the chequers deal. they are just pretending not to like it so they can get further concessions . Chequers keeps us under SM rues. which is what the EU want.
@Rockabilly hick Neither of those are Brexit. so it is a moot point. chequers will be delivered by the next PM. Once all these traitors have been voted out.
@Rockabilly hick when we get a proper PM ( soon) the EU will gladly accept our offer of a Canada + without the NI backstop. TM has sealed her fate with the bare faced treason of her position. It is not done by accident It is collusion. and everyone that knows about such things can see it very clearly.
@Rockabilly hick the EU is doing QE. they cannot afford to lose 1% of trade with anyone. never mind their biggest single customer in the World. The fact that you did not know that is testament to how uninformed you are of the whole process.
Informed panelists. Refreshing.
Incredibly depressing listening. Message seems to be things are bad, could get worse and might get worser yet and the chances of finding a way through the mire without great pain is extremely unlikely. Thanks guys.
That's the view outside the Brexit bubble. Its really just a question of how bad it will be.
yes it wont be pretty, make preparations privately
Services are only traded across state lines in single markets. That means federal nations like the US or Canada or Australia or the EU single market. Brexiters seem not to understand that services won’t be included in any deal that does not include the UK being in the SM (e.g. anything less than a Norway type deal). The service sector includes businesses as diverse as accounting, advertising, IT, Telecoms, legal, architecture, education, tourism, transport (land and air), and of course insurance and banking. All their EU business shuts down 1st April 2019. The primary and secondary job losses will be massive.
the US firm APPLE is not in the SM. and yet it provides services in the EU. you do not have to be an EU member to provide services in the EU.
@@boptah7489 Its European HQ in Dublin says otherwise you moron.
@@steveaustin6591 and so if you want to trade in the EU as a non EU corporation then all you need is EU registration and a letterbox. No problem. Idiot.
Ironic how confidently it’s claimed May wants to ensure the backstop while only weeks later (now), she (ERG driven) desperately wants changes (time limit / unilateral termination), that’d change it to quite the opposite.
Can someone compile a list of goods/products that are exported out of the UK that are solely or mainly British products please? What I mean by this is a product that doesn't rely on using any type of element/item that has to be imported into the U.K. Beforehand? Serious question. Serious answer please. Thanks in advance
Yes, I can. That list is empty.
One can't even get Tetley's teabags outside of Britain.
Just imagine you would have to sell Bovril or Marmite to a french 5-star restaurant, then you know what's going on.
US has only one special relationship and thats with Israel
@Patrick OConnor - ...and Saud Arabia
I think the UK is more interested in China now.
At this point the US strategic level concerns have nothing to do with Israel or the Middle East.
You are absolutely right
Saudi Arabia insists on all oil purchases being in US dollars - this ensures that dollars are in demand (petro-dollars) in return the USA keeps the Saudi regime in place - it is a criminal enterprise. Iran now sells all of its oil to China
Who now have the worlds largest army - 200 million men - plus an expanding military.
The USA is desperate to disrupt China’s advances in military - this flexing of muscles by the USA and China is bad news for all of us.
The US loves the concept of Brexit, through Brexit, they can help privatize the NHS to a US model, and lower the food and health code standards to the US model. There are many profits to be be made, at the expense of the new open market. Cheers mates!
We will watch that desater from Brussels and laugh our asses off. Good luck in your new land of milk and honey
Yeah the US is also interested in Brexit because then it can smuggle in the lizard people because of the lower security standards. These lizard people will then overthrow the British Government and make UK the 51st state like we have been planning since 1776 lol.
@@greatwolf5372 "Lizard people"? That's your strawman? yawn...
@@learnedhand7647 To be honest, Great Wolf's sarcasm is not totally wrong. The US hasn't engineered brexit. UK politicians have. It is however clear that the ultimate goal of brexit pursued by those (UKIP, Nigel, Boris, etc...) who engineered it and lied to the UK citizen to make it pass is to transform the UK into a tax heaven with very low to no regulation.
David Cameron probably only wanted a political win, but he was a mere pawn in the whole thing.
More privatization means more exploitation or more poverty for the majority of the population. America is struggling with its own model. Pure capitalism is living in a borrowed time . It the UK want to be in charge of its own life, it should be better brexit from the obsolete" free market economy" too, because free market has been mainly benefiting only a small number about over 1 % of the population of any unregulated capitalism-based economy, while impoverishing the rest .
None of the best- known economists in the world really understand capitalism. What they have been telling the public is what they believe, but not what the have a good enough knowledge of.
In 2008:I said that capitalism could only work within a limited boundary only such as within a country . But when it was let go free without any restriction of regulation, it would produce the opposite result to what it was thought to bring about. .
But none were able to understand what I said until recently when the consequences of being ignorant and, fanatical about pure capitalism became obvious such as I excessively increased homeless, hidden poverty or fake wealth living on credicards
The fact that the Brits believed the ez deal narrative just goes to show how disinterested in politics they are. Voting on a very important decision was done with the same level of preparation as one takes for electing a class representative.
Just to be clear.
Most UK citizen that resides in southern Europe are retired.
Most Europeans in the UK are younger .
It would be a problem for the UK NHS if they were forced to leave Europe.
They have formed small communities and nobody should tell them to go back to the UK. Since they do not work they enjoy the sunshine.
Our Europeans that go to the UK will work and can be a problem for the UK job market.
I beg the difference.
UK citizen spend money Europeans make money.
Let these older UK population live were they please.
BRUNO BRIZZI MACCAFERRI.
Bruno Brizzi
Many of the EU citizens work in low paid roles so their economic contribution to the UK is often quite low. That said, as long as they are carrying out work that we need, I welcome them being in the UK.
@@jmpark4003
I hate borders.
I'm afraid for many of my UK friends that are here in Italy ..if you crash out of the EU they risk to be forced to move back.
Be well
@@brunobrizzi933
Why do you hate borders?
Italy could decide to give them the right to settle in Italy in the same way that the UK is doing that for EU citizens regardless of whether or not the UK leaves the EU with a deal.
@@jmpark4003 They can stay in Spain but the UK will have to pay more to the Spanish health care.
@@jmpark4003
I hope so.
But my UK friends are afraid that they could have problems.
People, food , medicine are not cars.
That's all.
Be well
Bruno Brizzi Maccaferri
"Let's open it up to questions...no speeches... just a question." Then the first person to ask a "question" starts with a speech.
From the outset, it was glaringly obvious from the intro that this wasn't going to be a balanced discussion. With due respect to those on the panel, your missing one very important point. It is called democracy. You may not like the outcome, but it is what it is. Somethings are more important than than money and scoring political points.
'With due respect to those on the panel, your missing one very important point. It is called democracy.'
I disagree. Opposition and is an essential ingredient of Democracy, so the point is lost on you.
@@taintabird23 lol, it's lost on you too. The point of opposition is that the people you are opposing are meant to be present in the debate to defend themselves against the opposition lol.
@Alexanderthegreat
You think this is a debate?
it not a debate, its a panel discussion at a research institute in the United States. It is not an exercise in democracy.
The institute is not burdened with a responsibility to balance interviews with experts on the one hand, with charlatans and their lies and faith-based opinions on the other.
Its like expecting a museum to counter balance an exhibition on evolution with the alternative faith-based belief in creationism.
Well expressed. The one thing that is totally lost on E.U. supporters is the true meaning of democracy - hence, the opposing posting from 'Taint a Bird' with a profile showing a yellow skeleton wearing dark shades! The commonsense, Leave voice continues to gain support from those like 'Taint a Bird.
@@austenj4539 for goodness sake you dont believe the UK is a democracy? Look around, there is a reason your ruling class wants out of the EU. and its not for the benefit of its citizens
24mins in... .yes, yes, I know all this. Say something new or interesting....
There are only 3 possibilities:
1) Hard border btw. the RI and the NI
2) Border btw. the NI and the GB
3) No border in the Channel.
1) Breaks the good friday agreement.
2) Breaks up the UK
3) Makes brexit pointless as you would need to stay in the customs union, still can't make trade deals, still need to follow EU rules and lose your say in the EU.
So pick your poison. I'd go with option 2 to be honest.
I dont think Scotland qualify to join the EU independently, as they don't meet the fiscal responsibility criteria.
EU is know for strict flexibility.
Besides fiscal responsibility really matter only when you use Euro. Brussels budget can afford few more millions people with not so low GDP. They won't cost much while adding lots to total EU trade. Bigger party, more fun.
Scotland in the EU could also make trade with Ireland a lot easier. Which would benefit all 27 members.
The Spanish Foreign Minister has already stated Spain would *not* automatically block Scotland's application
@@mariuszfurman6531 I would assume the EU would try to get Scotland in the Eurozone. We've had our problems with Greece. Right now Italy seems to be heading for a break from Eurozone rules. Once all that is said and done, Scotland would be a minor hiccup
@@wolfetone2012
Assume nothing, trust no-one.
First: it wouldn't be smart add one more if you already have to many 'wobbling' Euro economy. Second the rules for Euro application are strict and cannot be negotiated. You can measure deficit but to see last 3 years of inflation you have to have OWN CURRENCY for a three years period. Call it Scottish pound if you like but first have it. Scotland with Euro would be long process. UK back in EU seams to be faster and easier.
@@wolfetone2012 Scotland could hire Goldman Sachs to fudge the books like the Greeks did - problem solved!
Oh wait no.....
Why no discussion about alternative EUs? EFTA? The Euro Asian Union ? BRICS?
Because its about the dysfunction in UK politics.
The government has already rejected EFTA. EFTA means customs union and some other things they don't want. They want something between Canada and EFTA .
People talk as if Britain and Ireland were not in the EU before the 1999 Good Friday agreement .my understanding is that it allowed for some future referendum to be held on reunion.If Britain left the EU and prospered economically Northern Ireland would want to stay in .But if Britain did not then the opposite would be true.
"... within a strong EU". Ok, were would one find that.
The technical solutions that Lucinda Creighton talks down, were advocated by Members of the EU Parliament, in addition to the Head of both the UK and Ireland Customs Agencies, just demonstrating the extent of bias throughout this panel, including Douglas Alexander, institutionalised to believe the EU is the begin all and end all. Both Douglas Alexander and Lucinda Creighton are discredited politicians in their respective countries.
Everyone is welcome... but this land is Ireland
We have a few million pushy Muslims you can have - where shall we send them?
@@frze5645 Oh, send them to the Dublin 4 postal district. That's where all the people on "the right side of history" live, sipping wine, nibbling cheese and congratulating themselves on how evolved they are. You know the type.
Joe Francis - you are correct - I do know the type - socially responsible do-goodies who encourage migrants in - as long as they don’t live in their neck of the woods - hypocrites.
Why involve Ireland in a discussion about Brexit???
AsAnUlsterman
Because Ireland has a lot of clout in Mainland Europe and also because Brexit will affect the Northern/ North of Ireland .
There will always be a deal when there is a Necessity
UK should walk away
No need for UK to create a border on the island of Ireland - only goods from Eire need to be restricted from entering the UK. Ireland needs to figure it’s own solution with it’s EU bosses.
The UK’s abusers in the EU (France, Spain and Eire) should see their access to UK reduced to minimal levels.
Eire should also have it’s access to the UK land bridge to the EU removed as well
Rather than talk about the problems with Brexit, why aren't they talking about why the EU isn't so awesome that why would anyone want to leave?
Same as the referendum campaign. Why did the remain camp message say "Brexit will cost you £ and is a risk" not "The EU does a,b, c all of which are awesome". Caroline Lucas said we should stay because she likes the fact her daughter can get a train across Europe. I'm sure that argument would have won 17m normal human beings' vote. NOT
Because the UK has always demonized the EU to the point that their own remain campaigners don't know the benefits of the EU they would lose. Here are a couple of arguments against leaving.
1) You will either lose frictionless trade or have to accept EU rules without much say in them.
2) You will not get a better deal outside the EU than inside it so will be reliant on deals with other countries to make up for the deficit which is a gamble.
3) As the UK has a veto they can stop the EU's ever closer union crap which they can't outside of the EU.
Also what are the realistic reasons to leave? I truly don't see any benefits of leaving the EU.
who the hell are these guys? who cares what happens with brexit. we have bigger problems in europe to think about.
Not in the English speaking world.
"The late, great John Hume". 1:10:09
Eh, he's not dead.
I know, I cringed there too.
if you want I'll give you one too (Facebook Nitu Teodor)
It's really funny when you go Spain, France, Germany, they all talk about having a "special relationship" with the US, when in reality no country has. Special for the countries involved. Special for the US? Not so much.
why does he cough when the irish girl speeks an if you you look he caughs in her direction
Its a secret messaging system pro-EU people have. Don't tell the Daily Mail.
A microcosm of Anglo-Irish relations.
One issue re the Scottish independence stats quoted frequently is that they say opinion poles now are similar to the results in 2014. this is very misleading. the figures in the poles before the 2014 referendum was announced was only in the low 30% hence the reason the UK Gov agreed to it.so essentially there was a 15% swing from the poles to the results! so the poles now vary from 47-53% in favour depending on which one you use. so not much of a swing after a campaign would be required. other factors now in play are.
1. The breaking of the vow re powers that were promised to be transferred to Scotland - Didn't happen in full.
2. Removal of the carrot "that if you want to stay in the EU you must stay in the UK!"
3. The power grab in a number of devolved areas
4. The probability that Scottish fishing waters (or UK if you want to call it that) will be traded off as they were in the common fisheries policy for other benefits to England.
5. The statement from the government that it will not be giving the farmers the subsidies that they enjoyed in the EU as it wont effect England so much.
e.g. English farming areas receiving subsidies 17%
Welsh farming areas receiving subsidies 71%
Irish farming areas receiving subsidies 77%
Scottish farming areas receiving subsidies 80%
Essentially England, in parliament and in recent public poles, have made it abundantly clear proceeding with brexit to the detriment of the other supposedly 'partners' of the union is a price worth paying for Brexit.
The smaller members of the union are essentially being treated as colonies of England (Little Britain)
we all know what has happened to all the other colonies once conquered by Great Britain they are all now Independent.
Unless the UK government accept a new union based on each country having 100% devolution and tax raising and spending powers we are on the road to a break up of the current Union where England decide what the other parts of the union can live their lives with no possibility of political influence.
13:37 15:38
Tosh. It is not diverse panel. It political clique.
The fact that Germany is insistent on the "4 powers " 0f free movement etc., reveals that within the space of 100 years Germany is once again a threat to peace in Europe.....the Kaiser built up a German Naval fleet for which he had no need and which Britain saw as a threat to it's standing in Europe.....Merkal's insistence on the supremacy Of the EU is mirrored by the Kaiser's insistence on building a naval fleet …..
Careful now, laddie.
What's wrong with building a naval fleet?!
Doesn't Britain have one too?
A second referendum would be disastrous. People were told their vote counted, and holding a second referendum would confirm that their vote did not count. I wonder how many of the 700,000 marching in London were (non-UK) EU citizens?
J M Park Been proved that French and Spanish were bussed in for that march. Also, been proved that at most 100k to 150k attended.
There's a bigger picture at play than what's mostly being talked about. Brexit wouldn't be happening unless the people up the very top of the British ladder didn't want it.
@@johnlacey7126
I expect that quite a few people marching were EU27 citizens as so many live in London in any case (and I know one that marched). I disagree with you on the numbers though as it was a big march. I live in London and there are marches for one thing or the other most weekends (especially during the summer), and as I drive though London I can judge how big the events are by the number of bridges they shut, and if they shut major roads. This time they shut Westminster and Waterloo Bridges which is unusual, and they shut Park Lane which is almost unheard of because it practically brings central London to a standstill. So, it was big by any measure, but just not with only British citizens would be my guess. As for the 'bigger picture' - I would not rule anything out.
Don't you want a say on the final deal, if there is one?
Taint ABird No. It's all a con by the left to get a remain vote.
@@taintabird23
If you are asking me, it would depend on what exactly is being asked. I can't see how they would do it though. The only thing to vote on would be the Withdrawal Agreement which is not the deal that people are talking about as it is not about trading arrangements. I would like to see how they help us understand hundreds of technical paragraphs about issues none of us would be well placed to understand, other than the broad headings; the framework for the future relationship is non-binding, so no point voting on something that might never happen. The discussions on that won't start until after the UK leaves in any case, so there is not much point voting after we leave, although I guess we could. Everyone knows that any second vote would really be an attempt to overturn the first one, and I would not support that.
I'm a leave voter but not an Irish expert.
We voted leave because we want to take back control / sovereignty. But the deal is hostage to the Northern Ireland border. This effectively is having a veto.
I can see two issues.
Trade / economic - Most other countries in the world have borders. That is the definition of a country! Or is the EU saying it can't cope with borders? In which case it needs to advance East and absorb more countries until has all of Eurasia & Africa.
Peace process - So we are saying we can't have real Brexit because of the risk of some (some) republicans bombing shopping centres? So the IRA has a veto on our sovereignty?
The EU isn't being difficult with borders here. Both the EU and the UK don't want to break the good friday agreement. Or do you want the possibility of violence breaking out again in NI. People like you demonizing the other side because you don't understand the problem is not helpful.
Trade / Economic: The GFA is predicated in having an open border. The EU has rules that make having no borders possible. The UK is leaving the EU and doesn't want to follow those rules. Since the UK won't be part of the Customs Union, it won't pay standard tariff on external goods, therefore a border is necessary to prevent those goods crossing into the Republic of Ireland and the EU.
Peace Process: The border as it is today is a huge facilitator of the normalisation of relations on the island of Ireland. In 1998 in Northern Ireland, 676,966 people voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement deal and for an open border, while 274,879 voted against. The 'yes' vote was 71.12%. Turnout was a record 81.10%. In the Republic the recorded 'yes' vote was 94.39%, with 1,442,583 people voting in favour and 85,748 voting against. With public support guaranteed the Governments signed the Agreement, which became an international treaty and this was lodged with the United Nations.
Incidentally, the head of the Police Service of Northern Ireland also agrees that any changes on the border will be a recipe for serious problems in NI.
None of this was mentioned during the referendum in 2016, and this lack of awareness is why the UK is in the situation it is in now.
Hope that helps.
"Rien n'est acquis avant que tout soit acquis" 95% agreed simply doesn't fly!
Watch the UK ambassador. Totally withdrawn! Disrespectful! Typical.
Diplomatic.
No deal is the best way to leave, any other way gives EU too much of a strangle hold on our future. From here in Northern Ireland it is infuriating to hear a misinformed american lady opining that the Backstop gives NI the best of both worlds when it clearly does the opposite, it cuts off NI from its biggest market in the UK in order to facilitate trade with our 4 times smaller irish market, stop regurgitating EU/Irish/Sinn Fein black propaganda. Grow some & get behind a no deal Brexit on 29th.
With a no deal there will be a hard border between the EU and NI.
If you want to talk about a British Imperial fantasy it would be that English should never consider the break-up of the UK when the other nations constantly rattle on about referenda on separation. It is OK for both Irelands and the Scots to say they should separate, and for the EU to pick up on it, but it is a deep insult if the people in England aren't deeply attached to their neighbours. We went through that crap in Canada, and the only solution is to set the separation vote at a sensible level like 60% and call their bluff. Regular people pay a price for all this nation building. Trivially, I locked into a high cost long term mortgage I had to take out just before the last Canadian ref. and it didn't pass by just a hair. A one sided friendship is no friendship at all.
@Hondo Trailside
There is only one Ireland , part of it
Northern /North of Ireland/ 6 of the 32 counties of Ireland / were annexed by Westminster .
Ok I send you my documents in public my name is Nițu Teodor Romică I am a citizen of Europe in Romania more than that You must understand that I am from the city of Alba Iulia Blaj County
Only 1.6% of Irish trade is done with the North, so why do they need commercial access to that border. They can build their own route to the EU.
Irish achievements since joining the EU are the result of bucket loads of money being dumped into Ireland; special concessions on corporate tax which are under attack; And of course their bankruptcy.
Once the UK leaves the EU (well, if), the whole calculation changes and Ireland will need to chin up and take on the task of contributing to the EU budget.
If the north leaves the UK for Ireland, Eire will have a huge hole in their budget to fill that gap, and even worse if there isn't a peaceful transition.
It is fine to talk about Imperial British fantasies, but the same fantasies of grandeur seem to exist in Ireland.
@ Hondo Trailside
One of your posts is interesting but somewhat misleading.
Ireland is expanding its ports and developing direct sea-routes to the EU - so are the French on the other side. Nonetheless, a certain amount of trade will still have to transit the UK. The border with NI is not all about commerce - the current status of the Irish border is a huge facilitator in the normalisation of relations on the island of Ireland. This is understood by the vast majority, confirmed in two binding referenda on either side of the border in 1998.
If we are to believe the Brexiter propaganda, the UK made a failure of membership of the EU; its evident to any one who knows Ireland that the country has prospered since joining the EEC in 1973, living standards have risen, GDP per capita have steadily risen; national confidence is much higher and Irish identity is no longer binary. Irish culture and soft power has been amplified and the EU has facilitated the broadening of Irish minds. This is quite the opposite of the English experience, or is at least perceived as such.
Once the UK leaves the EU it will either be a vassal of the bloc or it will have cast itself out with no trade deals, and possibly no agreed WTO schedule. Assuming it does trade under WTO rules it will be listed alongside the following Great Trading Nations: Holy See, Mauritania, Monaco, Montenegro, Palau, Timor-Leste, Sao Tome and Principe, Serbia, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan and Western Sahara. A motley crew indeed.
Ireland already contributes to the EU budget, -its an obligation - and indeed Ireland is now a Nett contributor.
If Ireland is ever unified politically, more likely now than before Brexit, NI will automatically return to the EU. This unification will occur only after negotiation and consent and with the economic support of the EU and Irish Industrial Development Authority etc and declining economic support from the UK. In this context, the economic impact of Irish unity is assessed favourably here: www.paulgosling.net/2018/02/the-economic-impact-of-an-all-island-economy-a-draft-report-for-consultation/
You have failed to provide any evidence of Irish granduer - instead you have confused 'grandeur' with Irish defence of its national interests, possibly due to a lack of knowledge of the subject matter or indeed some assumption that Ireland is in fact an appendage of the United Kingdom.
@Hondo Trailside
1:Ireland is all ready a net contributor to the EU ( it’s now quite a rich country )
2: When Ireland was under Westminster rule , it was a very poor country whose development was at the whim of the foreign Westminster government ..
3: 2008 :England borrowed money and then loaned that money to Ireland so that English banks ( having contributed to the housing bubble in Ireland ) would be paid for the bad loans that they made in Ireland .
4: : when reunification talks begin , part of the discussion will be Westminster contribution to the budget for a number of years .
They will be happy to do that so long as they don’t have to deal with the political parties in the North anymore .
Why did the Tory ambassador to the US took his time to join the debate if he had nothing meaningful to say? Waste of space.
He was being diplomatic.
Reptile Spit
He did exactly what any ambassdor would: walk a difficult path that offends no one and does not contradict the government of the day. An acquired skill, and he seems fairly adept at it. If you want to see a rogue ex-ambassador in action look up some of the writings by Craig Murray.
@@jmpark4003
His boss is an expert at making empty soundbites too, they got to be good at it given they've no plan no competence. It's a difficult job to bluff and try not look silly. I'm with you.
@@reptilespit4433
Well, I have to do it myself quite often although I am not anywhere near as good as the Ambassador, and I may just be incompetent. I have to deal with trade union reps who are convinced there is a management plan to 'oppress the workforce', and deny them all their employment rights. Sometimes it takes all I have not to say, "get a grip" but as I know that will damage employment relations I say something suitably anodyne to calm the situation, and we move on.
To much negativity about Britain on this discussion .
None of your business.
Why is it none of my business ?
What’s there to be positive about? Unless you believe the farts that come out of farage and jrm mouths.
It objective opinion rather than negativity, not something you would be used to in the UK.
@@taintabird23
Spoken like a true democrat
How cute. Americans think they have a say in the EUropean political debate? Ridiculous.
There appears to be no real threat to the UK whilst the E.U. requires any new Member State to adopt the Euro as its currency. That currency stipulation means no Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish independence from the U.K. is likely. Anyone disagree?
What exactly is a backstop ?? I have not heard anyone who speaks this word explain what exactly it means.
Basically it is an extension of the transition period if there is no solution for the border issue. In this backstop there will be a customs border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. The problem for the UK hower is that the EU has a veto if they don't agree with the solution the UK comes up with. And the EU doesn't want to give up this veto because that gives the UK the possibility to make up a half assed solution that could weaken the European single market. The UK wants to be able to unilaterally end the backstop so they can't be stuck under EU regulations indefinitely.
You can’t get a true perspective on the BREXIT issue by talking to a bunch of remoaners.
As an expert?
On the brink of not really leaving the EU like we all voted for
Shits going to hit the fan
Note that not a single time during more than two years of Brexit debate has any UK politican argued that the EU is actually a good idea - other than being an economic advantage. In the UK the EU is simply regarded as a evil neccessity, or simply as plain evil.
I totally agree.
Just not true! You should get out more and broaden the spectrum of politicians you listen to.
In the UK you don't see a EU-flag next to the national flag either.
@@marklloyd3536Fair enough. Please provide a reference/link to support your statement...
Remember people.. no deal no problem.
1) It needs to be understood that there was no reason for the violence in Northern Ireland. As bad as some of the civil rights treatment was it did not rise to the level of decades of terrorism/murder. Consider the Civil Rights movement in the US and what was behind that, issues unresolved since the days of actual slavery. Did descendants of slaves blow up Wall Street? There was a very small amount of militant activity, but on the whole there were activities from calm protest, through to riots. Not terrorism.
2) Like any military activity, the IRA campaign should not have been undertaken without any realistic hope of meeting their strategic goals. They never had any such reasonable hope. And that has always been the case. That was the Nazi analysis when they hoped to partner with the IRA to open a second front. That is where it has always been. And as great as the GFA is, the major points were all there anyway. The withdrawal of the Irish claim, who cares, so a northerner could get an Irish passport; the vote was always there; The putting aside of the arms was the result of post 9/11 intervention by the US.
3) So much progress would have occurred economically and socially in the North if it hadn't been frozen in time by the troubles. If you add that in, the whole thing was a waste.
So yes, if people are incredibly stupid and don't learn from history we could just be on the verge of a return to violence.
How nauseating watching Americans discuss Brexit.
They're even more fucked.
In 1998, where was the E.U. during the Belfast Agreement negotiations, which were agreed purely as Multi Party Agreement in N.I. and an International agreement between the British and Irish governments at the time? Shame on the E.U. for failing to ensure that the Belfast Agreement incorporated legal provision in the event that either the Republic of Ireland or the UK opted to exit/leave the E.U. If the E.U. had done so, then the current impasse would not be holding up the U.K.'s exit from the E.U. Anyone disagree?
Yes, I do.
According to George Mitchel, the broker between the two sides during the Belfast Agreement negotiations, there could have been no agreement without the EU.
He is right, because membership of the EU provided the context for the thawing of relations between London and Dublin. London would never have treated Dublin as an equal outside the context of the EU.
Shame on the UK, with its history of Eurosceptism, not to provide an incorporated legal provision in the event of the UK leaving the EU because of a civil war in the Tory party.
Thankfully, the EU incorporated a means for a country to leave the bloc in the Lisbon Treaty, a treaty opposed by British Eurosceptics.
@@taintabird23 A poor answer to my reasoning. You state that George Mitchel [broker] confirmed integral E.U. agreement to the Belfast negotiations, which clearly did not consider how to deal with a non frictional exit by the UK from the E.U. via the Lisbon Treaty Art 50 process for a M.S. to leave the bloc.
What 'reasoning'?
You are trying to blame the EU because Brexiters never considered the Irish dimension to their escapade. Their miscalculation assumed that either:
a) Ireland would just leave with the UK because the UK is an important trading partner and because England knows what is best for everybody.
b) the EU would throw Ireland under a bus because the UK was so important.
So, my 'poor answer' to your 'reasoning' still stands: 'Shame on the UK, with its history of Eurosceptism, not to provide an incorporated legal provision in the event of the UK leaving the EU because of a civil war in the Tory party.'
Shame on you for trying to spin it as the EUs fault.
@@taintabird23 The current Irish border issues are entirely caused by the E.U.'s failure to ensure an exit strategy procedure in the Belfast Agreement 1998. And, it is pathetic for the E.U.'s chief negotiator, M. Barnier, to attempt to make the border a matter for the U.K. to propose a unilateral decision on which all other M.S.'s should agree on in order to cover up the E.U. omission to deal with the issue in 1998.
@@austenj4539 You know the art. 50 was written by the British? :D What do you expect the EU to do? Cancel the GFA or what?
Two years in still going nowhere even though everyone knew out was no single market . No customs union. This debate is well out of date to where this joke called Brexit is
Reality at its best
Dilan Hunt - if stupidity is reality then you are correct ‘stupidity at its best’
Awww poor globalists,whining about a democratic refrendum.
There appears to be no real threat to the UK whilst the E.U. requires any new Member State to adopt the Euro as its currency. That currency stipulation means no Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish independence from the U.K. is likely. Anyone disagree on this fact and on my view that this panel is pretty low brow?
Why do you think the panel is low brow? In the context of Brexit, these people are rocket scientists.
@@taintabird23 OMG - Thanks for your input, Skeletor!
The new countries have to adapt euro, only don't have to. :D The Czech Rep. is obliged to adopt euro, we have been fulfilling the Maastricht criteria for some years now, but we haven't adopted the euro, because one of the requirements is that the government decides to enter the ERM which they just wouldn't do. :D So the obligation is only theoretical.
@ Loostyc
This is true, the Swedes have also promised to join the euro and never did. The EU can do nothing about it.
Well constructed arguments and facts. Nice change
ROMINIA EROPA
Goodbye Mr Junker. RULE BRITANNIA.. EU ləˈmɛnt.
MEP Hans-Olaf Henkel speaks the truth , he says just how important the uk is, the uk is the biggest single market for eu goods
( ruclips.net/video/inP67WgzAMw/видео.html )
when the uk leaves the eu, the only fishing grounds that will be viable for them to fish, are around ireland's coast
Henkel is a nobody in German politics. He used to be an AfD party member and is now trying (without success) to get his own Anti-EU party off the ground. I wouldn't even know who he is if not of the British media wheeling him out every time they need some specific soundbites. Do you know why they pick him? Because none of the actually relevant German politicians is sharing his point of view.
This is so ridicolous. The UK fishing quota has for years been allocated by Westiminster almost exclusively to a small number of fishers that run big trawlers and who land the fish mainly in non-UK ports. The small volume fishers have been left with no or very small quota. The fisheries issue is a problem that was created by the UK and only the UK can solve it. Yet the EU is made the scapegoat every time. If this policy is kept leaving the EU will not solve the issue. Wake up FFS!
Yourvibes the EU is with 48% the biggest market for the UK export. The UK needs for most cars assembled 60% parts from the EU27.
So good for Ireland. Bonus.
Well, we'll have a steak.
So long and thanks for all the fish :)
WTO.
WTF
If you know the Eurozone is heading for collapse, which has dire consequences for the Euro and the EU itself, then you'd be pretty daft wanting to remain in that union, financially speaking. As I read from somewhere else, whose publication's name evades me: 'The English have always been ahead of the temporal curve.'
You would but it's not! Lol
How convenient you remember the message but forgot where it came from.
Could it have come from the unicorns?
Eurosceptics have been confidently predicting the end of the European project since before they joined.
There is no evidence that the UK is ahead of the curve on this occasion - it has been consumed by irrationality, emotion and insecurity, all poor ingredients when making important decisions.
Most rational thinkers - if not all of them - think you're screwed.
The longer you keep predicting the collapse of something the closer you come to predicting the truth.
Which is another way of saying nothing lasts for ever.
It's pretty much a call for suicide because you're gonna die anyway.
Let's hope not. The writing, unfortunately, is on the wall. Just a matter of time.
The Irish nationalist woman is just there to tell us how much she despises the English. Oh, and Douglas Alexander too. And for your interest I am a proud English unionist and very much support the wishes of the Northern Irish to remain in the United Kingdom.
The faaaaakkkking Irish...lol
She's not an Irish nationalist, not even close.
And their wishes to remain in the EU? www.openeuropeberlin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Ireland-3.jpg
The Good Friday agreement says that "ANY change to the status of Northern Ireland can ONLY be done by the consent of the majority of its people". I emphasised ANY and ONLY. Pulling out of the EU is a change of status, they need another referendum.
Frinch n Joomuns n all mate
No discussion about the vote, democracy, legislative initiative, the EU commission over ruling our elected MPs via the ECJ. ?????
EU commission has legislative initiative. If the EU (pretend) Parliament had Legislative Initiative I might have voted Remain. That said. The Single European ACT states "Monetary and Economic Union" as a goal - on P2- which we do not want. Eurozone is a debt trap.
Remember the FT pushed for the Eurozone and giving up the pound - and our sovereignty. That's because the Ft, Reuters and mainstream media is funded by bankers ultimately. Same for Guardian. Bankers like to lend beyond repayable limits to gain control and guarantee income. The Eurozone is the perfect TRAP for member states who cannot adjust their currency in relation to productivity. A state that is a member of the Eurozone is no longer a sovereign state with control of it's bonds and currency but a Debtor state... and thus loses control of it's laws, governments (eg Greece and Italy who both have had their governments "changed" by the EU Commission and ECB withdrawing the ELA to their banking system... that's why Greece went to capital controls... ECB pulled short term lending... with your own currency you can control your bond rates by printing and buying them like the USA and UK can and do).. voting remain would have meant joining the Euro. Can the panel talk about that awful reality??!!?
Who do you think commissions the EU commission?
@@Dear_Mr._Isaiah_Deringer Corporate and banking lobbyists have a large say... although from each country the problem is the power is with the most dominant... in this case an unelected president Juncker who you see talking on TV in the same level as a US president or UK PM. Juncker does not talk for us, esp here in the UK.. (at all!).. only his agenda.
While on that note... how do you think Macron got into power from nowhere.. except a Rothschild bank.?
Every other candidate had their offices raided in the election process... the same happened in the previous election too. French presidents are "placed" too.
@@K48Chris 🙄 the _EU Commission_ is nominated by the _European Council_ *that are the heads of state or government of the member states* (e.g. HM Government). Nominees for Commissioner require hearing in and approval of the _EU Parliament_ (elected by the people).
Short; Junkers (i.e. _EU Commission_ ) is *executive representative* "commissioned" by the Heads of government of the EU member States (i.e _European Council_ ) to initiate legislation on their behalf and in coordination with their cabinets also known as the _Council of the EU_ (which are the resort specific ministers of HM Government and their 27 counterparts).
The EU Parliament as directly elected by the EU citizens is the ultimate chamber of approval👍 or dismissal👎 for legislation and EU Commission nominees.
Short; the *two legislative Chambers* of the EU are the _EU Parliament_ (representing the European People) and the _Council of the EU_ (representing the national governments through their Ministers).
Also not correct. You can call directly on Junkers _(European Commission)_ to propose a legal act ( _ec.europa.eu/citizens-initiative_ ) or issue
a complaint or request to the _EU parliament_ ( _petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/registration/register_ ). Both instruments to interact with EU institutions and indirectly the shortest way to interact with the UK House and HM Government as such options do not exist on a national level in the UK.
Head of State *the sovereign* Her Majesty The Queen Elizabeth Ⅱ by royal prerogative *vests her executive power* in the UK Government *(HM Government)* representative of *the supreme the UK Parliament* (of which Her Majesty is a member i.e. Queen-in-Parliament). Once elected the *supremacy of Parliament* and by extend the government are independent of the British people until another election is decided upon (otherwise you would be looking at a republic).
Jeahjeah they also raided the home of Macrons bodyguard and so on. That's called an independent judiciary.
And what are you babbling out of nothing? He was first _Deputy Secretary General_ and then _Minister of the Economy, Industry and Digital Affairs_ under President Hollande. Before he left that government and founded his own party (that parties dissolve, split, merge and regroup isn't particular uncommon in France).
By the way the French arm of Rothschild eventually was part of Paribas (todays BNP Paribas) which was nationalized in the first term under François Mitterrande in the early 80s and then privatized again in the second term in 1987 by Chirac (conservative PM). That influence is very limited in France if at all existent.
You should read less conspiracy theories, though if you want to have a little fun with Brexit conspiracy theories search _Robert_ Leroy _Mercer_ and consider that _Renaissance Technologies_ only makes big money with proper market volatility 😁
@@Dear_Mr._Isaiah_Deringerthanks for your serious response. Lets talk this through. An MEP cannot present a bill can he?
Ill answer that. An MP in the UK can present a bill. This is the root of a functioning democracy. The Peoples mps have power. An MEP can only, discuss, approve or reject a bill. Ultimately the commission creates laws. So In theory everything you wrote is correct. In practice it is not democratic. 750 multi languaged MEps have about 20seconds to press red or green buttons on bills they dont get time to read, within hidden conditionalities, compromises and agendas deep within. My MEP has no power at all. Divided in extremis. Now consider: Why is EU structured thus? It is a descendant of the European Coal and Steel council. It needs to be abolished and the UK parliamentary structure created.
www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/bills/
An echo chamber discussion between liberal elites who all hold the same view. Of what value is this debate?
Yes,the ones with a working class background like Jacob Rees Smog,Boris and Davis are the people who are right.
What an IDIOT!
Should of learned of the facts before the vote. Too late now. So dont whine and complain and throw a hissy fit just because you happen to change your mind does not mean that 17 and half million voters have changed their minds.!
And if you let something like Brexit dictate to you how well your business does then you must be a very unimaginative and weak willed person indeed is all I can say!
@@LeMerch your joking?
I think if only half a million changed their minds that will do.
How biased and anti brexit is this panel? Clearly the Brookings Institute talks to its own echo chamber.
St den - Do you have any study that shows us the effects of Brexit? So what negative and what positive do they mention?
St den how educated you mean?
Spot on. What a waste of time. Everybody agrees with everybody else on the panel. The only trouble is 17.4million voters don't agree with this bunch.
Facts hurt.
Nobody has to ignore facts to make you feel better, sorry.
@@sirkeg1 With your special relationship to St. Paddy's I would say that Ireland is your only logical choice 😉
eirexit coming,, soon there will be a vote . we need out.
BOT....We have made the choice, and it is to stand with the EU. There is strength in unity and numbers.
not in a million years pal. we're staying with the EU.
There appears to be no real threat to the UK whilst the E.U. requires any new Member State to adopt the Euro as its currency. That currency stipulation means no Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish independence from the U.K. is likely. Anyone disagree?
It depends on the nature of reform in the EU that is inevitable now because of Brexit, Italy, Poland/Hungry/Czech Republic, the migration crisis, the dilution of the Franco-German axis due to expansion to 27 countries, youth unemployment etc. There is likely to be a multi-speed Europe which will have wider appeal.
Anther factor is the continued evolution of English nationalism in the years ahead. Will the English decide to be independent of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? After all, 'they us more than we need them' works better in a UK context rather an EU one, and it will act to restore some self-esteem follow a Brexit that is likely to turn the UK into a vassal of the EU.
Perhaps all this will depend on the nature of constitutional reform that is surely inevitable in the UK post-Brexit. Will the English regions have their own regional assemblies? Most Brexiters seem to dislike Westminster as much as they dislike Brussels. I suspect the Scots will leave with a view to joining the EU, but unlike Brexit, will do so following an agreed coherent plan. Northern Ireland will eventually unite with the Republic and automatically rejoin the EU - though I think that is some time off yet as the Dublin will not want a mere 51% majority in favour of unity. Welsh nationalism will also evolve over time too.
Remember English shibboleths about the EU are just that - English. The Scots, Welsh, Northern Irish will all have their own world view and sense of identity, in part as a response to English pretensions.
I agree - because none of them have their own currency reserves nor do they have their own independent currency plus if the national debt were to be calculated - including unfunded liabilities such as pensions the value of their debt share would scare them shitless.