I'm a mid-pack age group racer and my bike is a Specialized Diverge (Future Shock 2). My two big events each year are Cascadia Super Gravel (~100 mi. up and down steep logging roads in the PNW) and Unbound. On the front I added a Vecnum suspension stem, which is an adjustable elastomer parallelogram stem (no bar rotation), on top of the Future shock so now I have a total of 40mm of softer travel. On the back I have an eeSilk+ seatpost with one step softer elastomer. I also max out tire volume with 47mm Pathfinder Pros. With this setup I feel more confident on chunky descents and less beat up towards the end of long events.
Nice collab. I remember James from his Angry Asian days on the mountain bike side of things. Always been a great source of information and honest input on technical matters, especially when it comes to suspension performance. Thanks for bringing this Ben to your channel.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney , I feel your ainxt. I seperated my AC joint a year ago and spent 3 months of PT to rehab. Fortunately no tears quite bad enough for surgery. Sleep habits had to change. Hope the best for your rehab and that your back riding soon.
My goal is go to fast and not feel like I’ve been hit by a truck after a long ride. Earlier this year, I bought the Specialized Diverge STR. It made a huge difference for me.
I raced the Lauf Gen. 1 fork and a Kinekt Active Suspension Seatpost for 7 years on my Jamis Renegade with 38mm tires. It was a great set up for me. I built a 2024 Giant Revolt this year with a VECNUM FREEQENCE SUSPENSION STEM (outstanding product!), Crane Creek eeSilk seat post and Berd Spoke wheelset with 2.2 Conti's. It's smooth and snappy and was a perfect ride for Big Sugar! At 63 I still love to race the long events. Glad to see you are on the mend!
Greetings from Germany. We Germans discuss always about changing little technical details (Like the new 911), so I really liked it, especially presented by the dream team ben and James. As an owner of an BMC URS, I bought a Trek Supercaliber a few weeks ago. This weekend I rode my URS again and it felt so uncomfy compared to my Fullsuspension Mtb. Tirewise URS runs on 44mm Vitoria Mezcal and the Supercaliber on 2.35" Mount Saint Anne.
Not surprised as those are pretty different bikes that are meant for pretty different usage scenarios. That said, I've been intrigued with the idea of building up a Supercaliber frame with drop bars...
Totally sold on the Future Shock on my all road bike. It a helps prevent numbness in my hands and means I can spend more time on the bike. Yes it adds weight but not excessively so. I would definitely consider a suspension stem for my next gravel bike. My old gravel bike was a Revolt and with the D shaped seat post, I used to get bounced off the seat. My Roubaix has a similar set up although it is not as soft.
It would be so cool if they came up with a gravel bike that had front and rear suspension, a dropper post, and some phat tires. Maybe even throw on some flat bars.
I have a 2019 S-Works Diverge. It's been updated to the Future Shock 3.0, but I had no problems with the previous 2.0 version. I didn't do any maintenance, and it never seemed to need it. The up-and-down works better for me than, say, a ShockStem, and doesn't bother me at all on turns. That said, many of my teammates said they don't like the bounciness in the corners. Maybe mine is just set up for my riding style better, I'm not sure. Anyway, super happy with it. Do I wish it was lighter? Absolutely.
The old Cannondale Headshok was 20 years ahead of its time. That thing would be great on a gravel bike-light, has damping, solid lockout, 80mm travel, smooth, rebuildable…
My current bike and most expensive to me is a Cannondale Topstone Carbon3. It has what they call a kingpin suspension on the rear. Coming off my flat bar Cannondale Quick CX which has a front shock and rigid rear its a totally different ride. For my type or riding I’m running 38c Gravelking Slick tires. I’m really loving this bike. After watching this video I’m definitely leaning toward ordering a Redshift Stem for it which I feel will make this a very plush ride
I keep my gravel bike fully rigid (but with 2.25 tires and a super long seatpost) for a few reasons: 1: a lot of our gravel roads a quite smooth, and I hit a lot of pavement too. 2: I ride my gravel bike when I can’t mtb. This means it’s often muddy. So less parts to clean and maintain helps. 3: my gravel bike is my extra bike, so I want to keep cost reasonable 4: I would try the flex stems, except they don’t come in the 140 mm size I need.
Great discussion. I’m surprised y’all didn’t bring up tire inserts though. I remember James talking about them a few years back, and I think they’re a game changer on both mountain and gravel bikes.
I am indeed a pretty big fan of inserts, especially for gravel. They definitely allow you to run lower pressures with less risk of pinch-flatting, but you're still trying to balance competing characteristics.
Glad y'all are on board with the suspension fork. Love my fox 32tc. Seems to have the most range into single-track territory. Waiting for fox to give me a lock out.. annoying to reach down and adjust it as I do often. Does anyone know if I can do that with a regular 32 sc lockout lever?
There was an article years ago, that I can’t find or remember who wrote it, but the ritchey superlogic setback seatpost was comparable to the cane creek thudbuster. I owned a 30.9 superlogic post before I read the article, and I can concur I bought it for weight but it was actually a noticeable improvement in comfort over the cheap stock alloy seatpost. I knew within in 30 seconds of leaving home, because I live on a bumpy brick street.
Love my eesilk lock out stem on my Ritchey Outback, perfect for the road and off road. Even locked out on the road it just smooths out the rough country roads, so do the 47mm tires.
I have triple pivot suspension for my gravel bike: ankles, knees and hips. If I'm sat in the saddle I don't want front suspension because the saddle will hit my ass hard. And I don't want rear suspension because of the squish. So I'm good with the cushioning limits of wide tubeless tyres.
Interesting that while both try to remain neutral, its clear that Ben leans against suspension and James leans to pro. I'll probably go with a suspension fork myself, comfort over speed for my next bike.
I actually ride a 2021 diverge with a 1.5 FS. I actually took it out. I do a mix of road and gravel roads and hate the out the seat feel. I will rely and tires and different pressures for my dampening needs
I know it's not gravel, per se, but I just made the decision to go with a gen 4 Trek Domane over a Spec Roubaix -- among other reasons fit related, the maintenance and added weight of the future shock stem did not appeal to me at all.
I wish they made a 40mm ish Sid Brain that was axle to crown corrected for gravel bikes. It'd solve the bob issue and also tire clearance for Thunderburt or Race King MTB tires that most or all gravel suspension forks can't fit. For now, I am a firm believer in big tires for gravel (2.2 race kings most of the time) and a Redshift stem. Weight is essentially nothing for the stem, doesn't really move or bob when climbing and 100% takes the edge off for most things.
For one, my personal experience with a gravel fork is quite good. I love underbiking and when I started taking the gravel bike to easy trails, I started getting rim strikes too, especially on roots and rocky patches. Enter FOX TC. Problem solved. The extra length making my geo slightly slacker felt adequate and there was room for it with the 72 deg stock head angle. The fork being designed for gravel and having shorter travel is also key. I tried using drop bars on 100mm travel XC hardtail at first, it felt too much. The bike was sinking too much while braking/cornering, so I had to set it up as if I were 15 kg heavier. The gravel fork still feels better.
Was hoping to see a mention of IsoSpeed type rear decouplers. I run an old Boone with that in the rear and a ShockStop pro upfront - good comfort combo for my flatlander trail riding in a 6.5Kg bike - takes the sharp edges off.
Sorry we didn't mention those specifically. In essence, though, they're not very different from add-on suspension seatposts, particularly the leaf-spring design from Canyon/Ergon.
I love the IsoSpeed setup. Different configuration but achieves the same end result as the Giant D post and the Ergon post James has - a bit of lightweight flex without too much complexity.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney Then again I have an old Gary Fisher Y bike hanging in my garage - haven't ridden that beast in about 10 years. It doesn't have tassels though, but did, thank gawd have a lockout. I felt for you every one of those 100 miles, but you looked good and looked like ya had fun.
In the discussion of suspension or not, Trek did some testing that showed efficiency gains from the new (longer travel) Supercal, compared to the old one, and even bigger compared to the hardtail. So yes, even for speed, suspension can save you energy, aside from the traction benefits. Of course, as `James says, this depends on the course. On a smooth gravel road the suspension provided by big tires will likely be enough.
I'm not sure I'd want those different types of motion going on at the same time. It'd also be challenging (if not impossible) to have a completely clean hand-off of suspension duties from one to the other. Plus, I've found that a good suspension (and one that's well maintained and proper tuned) handles chatter pretty well already.
Having never ridden a gravel fork, I'm curious how it behaves (on chunky gravel, not over 4 foot drops) compared to a 100mm XC fork. Is it better because it's more tuned for vibration damping? Is it worse because you have less travel (but do you even need that travel)?
The hoodie is from Ornot, and I absolutely love it. Merino wool blend, super warm and cozy. Unfortunately (and as is fairly common for Ornot), it was a limited production run and it looks like they're no longer available. They're an excellent cycling apparel brand to check out if you're not familiar with them, though.
Tires are suspension. 2018 Trek Checkpoint, Iso Speed rear running 40mm tires front and 35mm rear, front fork felt over built, fitted a Redshift Shockstop stem, much better, moved to a 40mm rear tire, was faster, moved to a 47mm front, faster, moved to a 47mm rear and a 50mm front tire, faster again.
If you mostly ride flat smooth firm gravel then no suspension is fine. For anything more than that, I think a short travel full-sus XC bike, like the Supercaliber or Epic World Cup, is the way to go. If you're going to get suspension, then go all in and get real suspension. I would love to see some bike maker produce a 80/100mm travel full-sus Gravel bike. All those pre-existing XC forks, shocks, and rear suspensions designs are just waiting to be applied to a Gravel specific bike.
The problem with emulating a full-suspension cross-country bike is that you're just not saving much weight at all even if you dramatically reduce the travel. Just like with telescoping gravel suspension forks, a rear suspension design like the Supercaliber or Epic WC reconfigured for gravel would require very similar structures. For what most riders will typically see on gravel rides, something like a suspension seatpost or Trek's IsoSpeed system will usually provide plenty of tangible benefit with less weight.
I took the CGR (cobble gobbler) off my Roubaix and put it on my Ibis Hakka and Iike it for washboard type stuff and it is pretty light compared to the complex stuff you reviewed
As somebody strongly considering purchasing a Lauf, I'd really like to hear more about where you guys think their fork fits into the modern gravel suspension range.
The Lauf is super interesting, partially because it's all spring and no damping, but also for the complete lack of stiction and the rigid carbon fiber structure. I've found that I love it for small-amplitude/high-frequency stuff like braking bumps and washboard, but not as much for medium-to-larger impacts. I've also occasionally found it to unsettle itself when hitting bumps mid-corner as the only thing keeping the two sides in unison is the front hub.
@@nminus1bikes thanks for the clarification. sounds like it's great for terrain that's rough but not technical, if that makes sense. Luckily, that definitely describes a lot of my riding.
Great information! So many fun options these days. I’m running a AXS dropper on my Stigmata with a eesilk stem. I’ve got one bad hand and thumb, stem takes some of sting out of the rough stuff. Although stem has recently started to chirp a bit under climbing pressure. Have to reach out to Cane Creek about a fix?
Sometimes the elastomer insert can squeak. Try removing and cleaning it as well as the mating surfaces in the stem, and then reinstall. You could also perhaps apply a bit of silicone lubricant (like what plumbers use) prior to reinstallation, but I'd check with Cane Creek first to make sure the materials are compatible.
@@nminus1bikes Thank you. I do love the discussion regarding active versus passive suspension. I "fondly" remember similar discussions on MTB when we went from rigid to front suspension. The baseline tends to reset every time we get the bike weight down to a certain level.
1. You can't generalize, as gravel roads vary from 4" babyhead roads to calcite that's smoother than a velodrome. So the "appropriateness" of suspension vary from 100% dumb to 0% dumb. 2. Current suspension is not aero, once that's fixed with aero linkage forks it'll be an obvious advantage. 3. Once you learn to pedal suspension it's totally fine to pedal, just different muscle memory.
Curious to know your thoughts on Cannondales kingpin solution - I’ve read that it gives a useful amount of damping without sapping out of the saddle effort. Don’t like the Lefty forks though….
I've found Kingpin to work pretty well, but mostly for medium-to-larger impacts. I feel it's a bit stiff to be super effective on smaller stuff like chatter and braking bumps.
Yeah, it depends... gravel tech is the wild west and is fun to think about. For my riding, mostly fast and relatively smooth, I prefer a rigid gravel bike, but one with a little compliance built in. And, I am finding bigger tires to be very helpful, and often faster, even on "champagne" style gravel roads (which still often have washboard sections, and/or a bit of looser gravel). I think frame makers could still make big advances in tuning in compliance through the frame design and layup, without adding specific, articulating suspension elements-carbon construction offers a lot of design and layup variations and possibilities for tuning in vertical compliance while retaining torsional rigidity. My feeling is, if I am going to be riding really rough stuff, or technical single track, I'll be on the MTB, and for fast gravel riding, I like to keep it simple. I do think some really good tuned compliance through the frame/seatpost can help, as getting bucked sometimes while trying to put down power is a real thing. I have not ever ridden a BMC URS-I wonder if the rear end of that is a good, relatively simple, solution without a large weight/complexity penalty. Good discussion, thanks for that.
MRP has a half off sale right now on their baxter fork. I jumped on one with 60mm; was kind of thinking along the lines of what James described, I like the future shock on my previous roubaix road bike for road chatter, but I want something closer to a hardtail with this gravel setup when I venture onto trails. Does James switch between the Fox and rigid fork setups on his stigmata? I was thinking about trying out Zeno hydraulic line couplers so I could quickly switch between two forks.
I don't switch forks, partially because the rigid Stigmata fork is internally routed and that's just too much hassle. I bought and built the Stigmata specifically for use with a gravel suspension fork, so it's unlikely I'll use the rigid one unless I get particularly curious one day.
i used to ride the ergon seatpost. IMHO- it sucks! it might work well, but you get this odd creaking sound like the carbon has a crack. Its' the 2 pieces of the post slightly moving against each other. Had to grip lube every week. Forget that. Love this channel but didn't really learn anything in this video.
Creaking can definitely be a problem with that seatpost design in general. Bummer this video wasn't for you, but hopefully it was useful (or at least somewhat informative) for someone else.
My two-cents: I skipped the Fox A32 fork option on a gravel bike I ride almost always on paved roads. On another one where it's more unpaved roads I'm using a RedShift stem. Both bikes have 38 mm slicks at 40 psi. If I want to bounce over rocks offroad I have a drop-bar MTB with ancient Rockshox INDY (and 50 mm slicks, knobs are overrated) that still goes up and down like it did 20+ years ago..though I certainly don't go like I did 20+ years ago! Good luck to the Angry Asian with his new gig!
Like everything in life, it all depends on what you want and like. Most of all, be happy, make fun of one another, and enjoy the ride while being grateful for the gift of bikes...
In racing, the amount of time saved on not so great surface descents can be massive with a front suspension especially if you aren't a fantastic bike handler. If you have an 18 lbs gravel bike with a rigid fork and a 19 lbs one with front suspension, you might be 20 seconds faster up a 8% mile long climb, but you'd probably save 30-60 sec (or more) on the descent if the surface isn't that good. Suspension systems in the stem or steerer tube seem to be the wrong direction because they don't help with dealing with the actual road surface. I just wish there was something more a long the lines of 60-80mm, rather than 30-50mm with a super stiff lockout. Really with the 32TC had a lockout.
I’ve been racing gravel in the SE US for two seasons now - going from 40mm to 47mm made me faster. If I really needed suspension on a very technical course - I’d be on my XC race bike.
Suspension stems have a great value. Trying to tune the air pressure in your tires to deal with all surfaces is a losing strategy. Susp stems are one more point of control that is low cost when not in active use. Further, most of us actually have to go to our day jobs when we aren't on the bike. And we can't afford to be dealing with perpetual effects of ulnar nerve compression. Susp stems are like sunscreen. You'll wish you hadn't constantly called them worthless when you're dealing with a chronic disease that could have been avoided.
@@petersouthernboy6327 I'm in the NE, where everything is steep (7-12%+) punchy climbs with loads of washboards, ruts, rain washes on steep descents. Gravel bikes are way faster on the way up than an XC bike, but an XC bike is way faster on the way down. With a bit of suspension in the front to give you more control, you can descend more like an XC bike. Pros will put 30 seconds on me in a descent over a 2-3 minute descent if I'm on a rigid fork gravel bike, but Ill be able to keep pace on an XC.
@@johnnycab8986 US gravel races are endurance affairs that usually combine tarmac, gravel, and in some cases technical single track. If a particular course is set up more technical - I would bring my quite capable XC full suspension MTB race bike. But the vast majority of courses are going to make the best use of a gravel frame and the *tire choice* will be the most critical issue.
Feedback Velo Hinge 2.0, and yeah, they do swing 90 degrees. You can set which direction. And then the hooks fold into the swinging cover for a cleaner look when not in use. One of my many to-do videos is a garage overhaul, and those have been a neat part.
Haven't been a massive fan, to be honest. I love the steering precision and general structural stiffness it provides, but not the lack of suppleness and tuning as compared to the better dual-telescoping forks out there.
Redshift concept - great. Execution,poor because of the side to side flex. The newest version of the (very expensive) futureshock has dampening control now, but 100% not for the average joe. I know the STR gets slagged, but with some customization it really has become the weapon of choice for the babyboomer weekend racewarior. Topstone lefty also really fun but rear brake caliper placement is an engineering failure - seat stay mnounted calipers = kaboom. Thanks for what you do Ben
"Redshift concept - great. Execution,poor because of the side to side flex." Not on mine...yet. Hard to believe there's enough movement in these things to get sloppy due to wear, but time will tell.
Gravel Bike for me means adventure bike. Long Trips, fast enough on the road don‘t have to think to much about the road. Can go everyware but do not have to win prices. For the feel of free and independence i like my gravel bike alloy and with mechanical shifting. No suspension 45mm tires. Stem, seatpost, handelbar, spokes all standard parts. A bit like a old truck… It is not rational, it is purly for the feel.
Let's see. A gravel fork with 40 to 50 mm or so of suspension and weighs about 1200 grams and costs over a thousand bucks .. or an xc suspension that has 100mm travel and only weighs 100 grams more for the same price or a slight bit less. Ride the two and see how HUGELY superior the xc fork is. A lightweight hardtail with a superlight xc fork is the way to go. But then that's just me. I'll ride and race an xc bike for more race events than a gravel bike simply because I like a gravel course that's more than a road course with gravel bike paths thrown in. that's not gravel to me.
Nope, "it depends" is absolutely the correct answer, because it genuinely does depend on the individual's wants and needs. Would it have been better for me to apply a blanket statement to everyone regardless of their personal and/or regional differences?
Two of the most reliable and honest editors/youtubers/reviewers you can find in regards to bicycles.
Highly recommend Mapdec Cycles and Hambini as well, albeit neither are editors/reviewers :P
Agree! Ben and James are the best.
I sure miss James on Geek Warning.
Glad to see two of my favorite folks in the biz in one video! Hope you both are well.
Thanks. It was great to have James on the show.
2 guys who are titans in the bike industry. Informative and loaded with good tips.
I'm a mid-pack age group racer and my bike is a Specialized Diverge (Future Shock 2). My two big events each year are Cascadia Super Gravel (~100 mi. up and down steep logging roads in the PNW) and Unbound. On the front I added a Vecnum suspension stem, which is an adjustable elastomer parallelogram stem (no bar rotation), on top of the Future shock so now I have a total of 40mm of softer travel. On the back I have an eeSilk+ seatpost with one step softer elastomer. I also max out tire volume with 47mm Pathfinder Pros. With this setup I feel more confident on chunky descents and less beat up towards the end of long events.
Two people I love listening to together! Yes!! Missed hearing you James!
It was fun making a guest appearance!
Nice collab. I remember James from his Angry Asian days on the mountain bike side of things. Always been a great source of information and honest input on technical matters, especially when it comes to suspension performance. Thanks for bringing this Ben to your channel.
What a treat! Hope the two of you do more collabs in the future.
Ben, nice to see you have use of both hands again. Hope the shoulder is progressing fine.
Thank you. The shoulder is a work in progress. Never going to be what it was, but hopefully I can get back to some basic strength and mobility.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney , I feel your ainxt. I seperated my AC joint a year ago and spent 3 months of PT to rehab. Fortunately no tears quite bad enough for surgery. Sleep habits had to change.
Hope the best for your rehab and that your back riding soon.
Looking good Ben! Talking with both hands. 🙌
Riding a Lauf fork and eeSilk seatpost on 55mm tires and a longer wheelbase steel frame. Love it.
So cool seeing you both chat. Covers about everything in gravel suspension out there. Wild west? That's what makes it exciting.
Agreed! It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
It depends on how old you are. In our senior years a little suspension is pretty nice.
My goal is go to fast and not feel like I’ve been hit by a truck after a long ride. Earlier this year, I bought the Specialized Diverge STR. It made a huge difference for me.
I raced the Lauf Gen. 1 fork and a Kinekt Active Suspension Seatpost for 7 years on my Jamis Renegade with 38mm tires. It was a great set up for me. I built a 2024 Giant Revolt this year with a VECNUM FREEQENCE SUSPENSION STEM (outstanding product!), Crane Creek eeSilk seat post and Berd Spoke wheelset with 2.2 Conti's. It's smooth and snappy and was a perfect ride for Big Sugar! At 63 I still love to race the long events. Glad to see you are on the mend!
Smooth is fast.
Nice1… you keep at bro!
Great to see James on the channel. Great to hear all of the wisdom from the two of you.
So fun to see you two collaborate. Great conversation
Great to see James!
Greetings from Germany. We Germans discuss always about changing little technical details (Like the new 911), so I really liked it, especially presented by the dream team ben and James. As an owner of an BMC URS, I bought a Trek Supercaliber a few weeks ago. This weekend I rode my URS again and it felt so uncomfy compared to my Fullsuspension Mtb. Tirewise URS runs on 44mm Vitoria Mezcal and the Supercaliber on 2.35" Mount Saint Anne.
Not surprised as those are pretty different bikes that are meant for pretty different usage scenarios. That said, I've been intrigued with the idea of building up a Supercaliber frame with drop bars...
Totally sold on the Future Shock on my all road bike. It a helps prevent numbness in my hands and means I can spend more time on the bike. Yes it adds weight but not excessively so.
I would definitely consider a suspension stem for my next gravel bike.
My old gravel bike was a Revolt and with the D shaped seat post, I used to get bounced off the seat. My Roubaix has a similar set up although it is not as soft.
Thanks! Great discussion!
Thank you very much.
It would be so cool if they came up with a gravel bike that had front and rear suspension, a dropper post, and some phat tires. Maybe even throw on some flat bars.
I think those are called MTBs?
@@larryt.atcycleitalia5786 bingo!
Love the low grade sarcasm.
Thanks great Video, i really love the Vecnum freeqence which is a Suspension stem ,but with a parallelowgramm Design. Sadly only available in the EU.
JH reviews are elite, the best in the biz.
I have a 2019 S-Works Diverge. It's been updated to the Future Shock 3.0, but I had no problems with the previous 2.0 version. I didn't do any maintenance, and it never seemed to need it. The up-and-down works better for me than, say, a ShockStem, and doesn't bother me at all on turns. That said, many of my teammates said they don't like the bounciness in the corners. Maybe mine is just set up for my riding style better, I'm not sure. Anyway, super happy with it. Do I wish it was lighter? Absolutely.
James frickin Huang is THE man
The old Cannondale Headshok was 20 years ahead of its time. That thing would be great on a gravel bike-light, has damping, solid lockout, 80mm travel, smooth, rebuildable…
Hard agree.
My current bike and most expensive to me is a Cannondale Topstone Carbon3. It has what they call a kingpin suspension on the rear. Coming off my flat bar Cannondale Quick CX which has a front shock and rigid rear its a totally different ride. For my type or riding I’m running 38c Gravelking Slick tires. I’m really loving this bike. After watching this video I’m definitely leaning toward ordering a Redshift Stem for it which I feel will make this a very plush ride
Great episode! I hope you can get together again soon. And +1 for N-1.
I keep my gravel bike fully rigid (but with 2.25 tires and a super long seatpost) for a few reasons:
1: a lot of our gravel roads a quite smooth, and I hit a lot of pavement too.
2: I ride my gravel bike when I can’t mtb. This means it’s often muddy. So less parts to clean and maintain helps.
3: my gravel bike is my extra bike, so I want to keep cost reasonable
4: I would try the flex stems, except they don’t come in the 140 mm size I need.
Great video, lots of good information in here. Evergreen video.
I'd like to see a comparison of a Lauf Seigla rigid with 2.25/2.3 fast xc tire compared to a bike with 45mm tires and suspension fork.
J.H. ... the man, the legend. Great podcast!
Great discussion. I’m surprised y’all didn’t bring up tire inserts though. I remember James talking about them a few years back, and I think they’re a game changer on both mountain and gravel bikes.
I am indeed a pretty big fan of inserts, especially for gravel. They definitely allow you to run lower pressures with less risk of pinch-flatting, but you're still trying to balance competing characteristics.
Can we get a Ben + James tech podcast??
I have that eeSilk stem with the locking lever. I like the look. Functional aesthetic.
My experience: I have had Future Shock equipped bikes since 2017 and have not needed any maintenance.
Good quality journalism
I have newer generation Diverge, and it’s leaps and bounds more comfortable than the Ventum GS1 I was on. So I say yes.
Glad y'all are on board with the suspension fork. Love my fox 32tc. Seems to have the most range into single-track territory. Waiting for fox to give me a lock out.. annoying to reach down and adjust it as I do often. Does anyone know if I can do that with a regular 32 sc lockout lever?
One advantage of a classic fork over the stems is it actually gives you more traction on the ground.
There was an article years ago, that I can’t find or remember who wrote it, but the ritchey superlogic setback seatpost was comparable to the cane creek thudbuster. I owned a 30.9 superlogic post before I read the article, and I can concur I bought it for weight but it was actually a noticeable improvement in comfort over the cheap stock alloy seatpost. I knew within in 30 seconds of leaving home, because I live on a bumpy brick street.
Love my eesilk lock out stem on my Ritchey Outback, perfect for the road and off road. Even locked out on the road it just smooths out the rough country roads, so do the 47mm tires.
Truly challenging gravel bike racing courses... are fun.. on a mountain bike.. with suspension.
Great talk! Really enjoyed this.
I have triple pivot suspension for my gravel bike: ankles, knees and hips. If I'm sat in the saddle I don't want front suspension because the saddle will hit my ass hard. And I don't want rear suspension because of the squish. So I'm good with the cushioning limits of wide tubeless tyres.
Interesting that while both try to remain neutral, its clear that Ben leans against suspension and James leans to pro. I'll probably go with a suspension fork myself, comfort over speed for my next bike.
Comfort can result in confidence which can result in faster times.
Best duo ever! ❤
James is the real deal. No BS, and no PR person can sway him
I disagree. European Haribo goes a long way 🤣
I actually ride a 2021 diverge with a 1.5 FS. I actually took it out. I do a mix of road and gravel roads and hate the out the seat feel. I will rely and tires and different pressures for my dampening needs
I know it's not gravel, per se, but I just made the decision to go with a gen 4 Trek Domane over a Spec Roubaix -- among other reasons fit related, the maintenance and added weight of the future shock stem did not appeal to me at all.
Didn’t PNW recently come out with a 27.2 gravel bike dropper post that also had some spring??
I wish they made a 40mm ish Sid Brain that was axle to crown corrected for gravel bikes. It'd solve the bob issue and also tire clearance for Thunderburt or Race King MTB tires that most or all gravel suspension forks can't fit.
For now, I am a firm believer in big tires for gravel (2.2 race kings most of the time) and a Redshift stem. Weight is essentially nothing for the stem, doesn't really move or bob when climbing and 100% takes the edge off for most things.
For one, my personal experience with a gravel fork is quite good. I love underbiking and when I started taking the gravel bike to easy trails, I started getting rim strikes too, especially on roots and rocky patches. Enter FOX TC. Problem solved. The extra length making my geo slightly slacker felt adequate and there was room for it with the 72 deg stock head angle. The fork being designed for gravel and having shorter travel is also key. I tried using drop bars on 100mm travel XC hardtail at first, it felt too much. The bike was sinking too much while braking/cornering, so I had to set it up as if I were 15 kg heavier. The gravel fork still feels better.
Run a Redshift stem on my road bike…a revelation. I’d recommend one to all barring the elite performance focused.
Thanks guys 🤜🏼🇺🇸
Whilst your recuperating...Tour of James' garage!
Was hoping to see a mention of IsoSpeed type rear decouplers. I run an old Boone with that in the rear and a ShockStop pro upfront - good comfort combo for my flatlander trail riding in a 6.5Kg bike - takes the sharp edges off.
Sorry we didn't mention those specifically. In essence, though, they're not very different from add-on suspension seatposts, particularly the leaf-spring design from Canyon/Ergon.
I love the IsoSpeed setup. Different configuration but achieves the same end result as the Giant D post and the Ergon post James has - a bit of lightweight flex without too much complexity.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney Then again I have an old Gary Fisher Y bike hanging in my garage - haven't ridden that beast in about 10 years. It doesn't have tassels though, but did, thank gawd have a lockout. I felt for you every one of those 100 miles, but you looked good and looked like ya had fun.
@30:38…I love that Canyon marketing felt the need to call it “basalt fiber” rather than just calling it glass fiber.
Basalt fibers and glass fibers aren't the same thing from what I understand.
In the discussion of suspension or not, Trek did some testing that showed efficiency gains from the new (longer travel) Supercal, compared to the old one, and even bigger compared to the hardtail. So yes, even for speed, suspension can save you energy, aside from the traction benefits.
Of course, as `James says, this depends on the course. On a smooth gravel road the suspension provided by big tires will likely be enough.
could you have stem to reduce chatter and fork set stiffer for big bumps, at thesame time?
I'm not sure I'd want those different types of motion going on at the same time. It'd also be challenging (if not impossible) to have a completely clean hand-off of suspension duties from one to the other. Plus, I've found that a good suspension (and one that's well maintained and proper tuned) handles chatter pretty well already.
Having never ridden a gravel fork, I'm curious how it behaves (on chunky gravel, not over 4 foot drops) compared to a 100mm XC fork. Is it better because it's more tuned for vibration damping? Is it worse because you have less travel (but do you even need that travel)?
I want that hoodie! Maybe N-1 merch in the future
The hoodie is from Ornot, and I absolutely love it. Merino wool blend, super warm and cozy. Unfortunately (and as is fairly common for Ornot), it was a limited production run and it looks like they're no longer available. They're an excellent cycling apparel brand to check out if you're not familiar with them, though.
Tires are suspension. 2018 Trek Checkpoint, Iso Speed rear running 40mm tires front and 35mm rear, front fork felt over built, fitted a Redshift Shockstop stem, much better, moved to a 40mm rear tire, was faster, moved to a 47mm front, faster, moved to a 47mm rear and a 50mm front tire, faster again.
If you mostly ride flat smooth firm gravel then no suspension is fine. For anything more than that, I think a short travel full-sus XC bike, like the Supercaliber or Epic World Cup, is the way to go. If you're going to get suspension, then go all in and get real suspension. I would love to see some bike maker produce a 80/100mm travel full-sus Gravel bike. All those pre-existing XC forks, shocks, and rear suspensions designs are just waiting to be applied to a Gravel specific bike.
The problem with emulating a full-suspension cross-country bike is that you're just not saving much weight at all even if you dramatically reduce the travel. Just like with telescoping gravel suspension forks, a rear suspension design like the Supercaliber or Epic WC reconfigured for gravel would require very similar structures. For what most riders will typically see on gravel rides, something like a suspension seatpost or Trek's IsoSpeed system will usually provide plenty of tangible benefit with less weight.
I took the CGR (cobble gobbler) off my Roubaix and put it on my Ibis Hakka and Iike it for washboard type stuff and it is pretty light compared to the complex stuff you reviewed
That seatpost is definitely pretty light, but it also isn't nearly as effective as the other ones we mentioned in the video.
I love the Redshift stem, but I couldn’t get along with the seatpost, because of the setback.
Yep, same. I'd really like to see Redshift come out with a zero-offset version.
As somebody strongly considering purchasing a Lauf, I'd really like to hear more about where you guys think their fork fits into the modern gravel suspension range.
The Lauf is super interesting, partially because it's all spring and no damping, but also for the complete lack of stiction and the rigid carbon fiber structure. I've found that I love it for small-amplitude/high-frequency stuff like braking bumps and washboard, but not as much for medium-to-larger impacts. I've also occasionally found it to unsettle itself when hitting bumps mid-corner as the only thing keeping the two sides in unison is the front hub.
@@nminus1bikes thanks for the clarification. sounds like it's great for terrain that's rough but not technical, if that makes sense. Luckily, that definitely describes a lot of my riding.
Great information! So many fun options these days. I’m running a AXS dropper on my Stigmata with a eesilk stem. I’ve got one bad hand and thumb, stem takes some of sting out of the rough stuff. Although stem has recently started to chirp a bit under climbing pressure. Have to reach out to Cane Creek about a fix?
Sometimes the elastomer insert can squeak. Try removing and cleaning it as well as the mating surfaces in the stem, and then reinstall. You could also perhaps apply a bit of silicone lubricant (like what plumbers use) prior to reinstallation, but I'd check with Cane Creek first to make sure the materials are compatible.
You kinda underserved the Cannondale contribution to gravel suspension. Alison Tetrick won Unbound riding a Cannondale with a Lefty way back in 2017.
Fair point. The Slate in general was worthy of more attention.
@@nminus1bikes Thank you. I do love the discussion regarding active versus passive suspension. I "fondly" remember similar discussions on MTB when we went from rigid to front suspension. The baseline tends to reset every time we get the bike weight down to a certain level.
1. You can't generalize, as gravel roads vary from 4" babyhead roads to calcite that's smoother than a velodrome. So the "appropriateness" of suspension vary from 100% dumb to 0% dumb.
2. Current suspension is not aero, once that's fixed with aero linkage forks it'll be an obvious advantage.
3. Once you learn to pedal suspension it's totally fine to pedal, just different muscle memory.
Curious to know your thoughts on Cannondales kingpin solution - I’ve read that it gives a useful amount of damping without sapping out of the saddle effort.
Don’t like the Lefty forks though….
I've found Kingpin to work pretty well, but mostly for medium-to-larger impacts. I feel it's a bit stiff to be super effective on smaller stuff like chatter and braking bumps.
Do you know what rides really well and fast and smooth on these surfices? A CX bike with drop bars...
Great vid Ben. Lots of good info…Any chance you could do a review of the new Cube Nuroad C:62 Race do you have a hook up with Cube?? 😎👍🏻
Thank you. Unfortunately we don’t get Cube in the US.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney no worries Ben. 👍🏻
Yeah, it depends... gravel tech is the wild west and is fun to think about. For my riding, mostly fast and relatively smooth, I prefer a rigid gravel bike, but one with a little compliance built in. And, I am finding bigger tires to be very helpful, and often faster, even on "champagne" style gravel roads (which still often have washboard sections, and/or a bit of looser gravel). I think frame makers could still make big advances in tuning in compliance through the frame design and layup, without adding specific, articulating suspension elements-carbon construction offers a lot of design and layup variations and possibilities for tuning in vertical compliance while retaining torsional rigidity. My feeling is, if I am going to be riding really rough stuff, or technical single track, I'll be on the MTB, and for fast gravel riding, I like to keep it simple. I do think some really good tuned compliance through the frame/seatpost can help, as getting bucked sometimes while trying to put down power is a real thing. I have not ever ridden a BMC URS-I wonder if the rear end of that is a good, relatively simple, solution without a large weight/complexity penalty.
Good discussion, thanks for that.
Did I miss the part where you discuss the BMC URS?
And Basso and BH and Cannondale… I can on. Pity.
@@lazlo2511 If we'd hit every single option out there with some sort of physical suspension mechanism, we'd still be sitting in Ben's garage ;)
MRP has a half off sale right now on their baxter fork. I jumped on one with 60mm; was kind of thinking along the lines of what James described, I like the future shock on my previous roubaix road bike for road chatter, but I want something closer to a hardtail with this gravel setup when I venture onto trails. Does James switch between the Fox and rigid fork setups on his stigmata? I was thinking about trying out Zeno hydraulic line couplers so I could quickly switch between two forks.
Like me, James has way too many test bikes in his garage, so he's switching bikes - not forks - to ride tamer gravel.
I don't switch forks, partially because the rigid Stigmata fork is internally routed and that's just too much hassle. I bought and built the Stigmata specifically for use with a gravel suspension fork, so it's unlikely I'll use the rigid one unless I get particularly curious one day.
I've liked the video before evening watching. Something tells me it's unlikely I'll change that after the fact.
Sure but what about a suspension stem plus a suspension fork? 60mm travel and lots of tuning options with fork pressure and elastomers!
i used to ride the ergon seatpost. IMHO- it sucks! it might work well, but you get this odd creaking sound like the carbon has a crack. Its' the 2 pieces of the post slightly moving against each other. Had to grip lube every week. Forget that. Love this channel but didn't really learn anything in this video.
Creaking can definitely be a problem with that seatpost design in general. Bummer this video wasn't for you, but hopefully it was useful (or at least somewhat informative) for someone else.
My two-cents: I skipped the Fox A32 fork option on a gravel bike I ride almost always on paved roads. On another one where it's more unpaved roads I'm using a RedShift stem. Both bikes have 38 mm slicks at 40 psi. If I want to bounce over rocks offroad I have a drop-bar MTB with ancient Rockshox INDY (and 50 mm slicks, knobs are overrated) that still goes up and down like it did 20+ years ago..though I certainly don't go like I did 20+ years ago!
Good luck to the Angry Asian with his new gig!
Like everything in life, it all depends on what you want and like. Most of all, be happy, make fun of one another, and enjoy the ride while being grateful for the gift of bikes...
Yep, exactly.
In racing, the amount of time saved on not so great surface descents can be massive with a front suspension especially if you aren't a fantastic bike handler. If you have an 18 lbs gravel bike with a rigid fork and a 19 lbs one with front suspension, you might be 20 seconds faster up a 8% mile long climb, but you'd probably save 30-60 sec (or more) on the descent if the surface isn't that good. Suspension systems in the stem or steerer tube seem to be the wrong direction because they don't help with dealing with the actual road surface.
I just wish there was something more a long the lines of 60-80mm, rather than 30-50mm with a super stiff lockout. Really with the 32TC had a lockout.
I’ve been racing gravel in the SE US for two seasons now - going from 40mm to 47mm made me faster. If I really needed suspension on a very technical course - I’d be on my XC race bike.
Suspension stems have a great value. Trying to tune the air pressure in your tires to deal with all surfaces is a losing strategy. Susp stems are one more point of control that is low cost when not in active use. Further, most of us actually have to go to our day jobs when we aren't on the bike. And we can't afford to be dealing with perpetual effects of ulnar nerve compression. Susp stems are like sunscreen. You'll wish you hadn't constantly called them worthless when you're dealing with a chronic disease that could have been avoided.
@@petersouthernboy6327 I'm in the NE, where everything is steep (7-12%+) punchy climbs with loads of washboards, ruts, rain washes on steep descents. Gravel bikes are way faster on the way up than an XC bike, but an XC bike is way faster on the way down. With a bit of suspension in the front to give you more control, you can descend more like an XC bike. Pros will put 30 seconds on me in a descent over a 2-3 minute descent if I'm on a rigid fork gravel bike, but Ill be able to keep pace on an XC.
@@cjohnson3836 I run a Redshift Pro. It does take the sting out of washboard gravel.
@@johnnycab8986 US gravel races are endurance affairs that usually combine tarmac, gravel, and in some cases technical single track. If a particular course is set up more technical - I would bring my quite capable XC full suspension MTB race bike. But the vast majority of courses are going to make the best use of a gravel frame and the *tire choice* will be the most critical issue.
What hooks are you using Ben? Do they pivot?
Feedback Velo Hinge 2.0, and yeah, they do swing 90 degrees. You can set which direction. And then the hooks fold into the swinging cover for a cleaner look when not in use. One of my many to-do videos is a garage overhaul, and those have been a neat part.
Dynamic Duo!
We need the headshok back!
Patents prolly not a issue anymore?!!?
I'm honestly surprised it hasn't come back already.
@@nminus1bikes: takes a large diameter head tube to work properly-they’d have to make special frames for it.
What about Hi-Ride? I think James needs to come back for a Part 2. There are many suspension variables and you guys have only scratched the surface.
Haven't been a massive fan, to be honest. I love the steering precision and general structural stiffness it provides, but not the lack of suppleness and tuning as compared to the better dual-telescoping forks out there.
Redshift concept - great. Execution,poor because of the side to side flex.
The newest version of the (very expensive) futureshock has dampening control now, but 100% not for the average joe.
I know the STR gets slagged, but with some customization it really has become the weapon of choice for the babyboomer weekend racewarior.
Topstone lefty also really fun but rear brake caliper placement is an engineering failure - seat stay mnounted calipers = kaboom.
Thanks for what you do Ben
"Redshift concept - great. Execution,poor because of the side to side flex." Not on mine...yet. Hard to believe there's enough movement in these things to get sloppy due to wear, but time will tell.
couldn't click on this fast enough
what is a bendy seatpost exactly?
Upgraded Giant Protege when?!!! Slap some suntour fork and microshift drivetrain
I'd be happy to assist with that project 🤣
Im new here but this guy is literally ron burgandy?
Gravel Bike for me means adventure bike. Long Trips, fast enough on the road don‘t have to think to much about the road. Can go everyware but do not have to win prices.
For the feel of free and independence i like my gravel bike alloy and with mechanical shifting. No suspension 45mm tires. Stem, seatpost, handelbar, spokes all standard parts. A bit like a old truck…
It is not rational, it is purly for the feel.
Vibration is fatiguing and slows you down, tires and rider.
Because gravel is bumpy.
Let's see. A gravel fork with 40 to 50 mm or so of suspension and weighs about 1200 grams and costs over a thousand bucks .. or an xc suspension that has 100mm travel and only weighs 100 grams more for the same price or a slight bit less. Ride the two and see how HUGELY superior the xc fork is. A lightweight hardtail with a superlight xc fork is the way to go. But then that's just me. I'll ride and race an xc bike for more race events than a gravel bike simply because I like a gravel course that's more than a road course with gravel bike paths thrown in. that's not gravel to me.
That bald guy looks a lot like Charles Manantan.
I can only dream of being that handsome.
If God had created man's body without suspension, then bicycles with suspension would not be necessary.
Cushy helps us be pushy-on. 🚴🏼
Like, kind of, super lol.
Gravel rides are not smooth as you imagine.
Now that bro runs a brand called “N-1”, bro can’t answer it depends 😂
“It depends” applies to N+1, not N-1
Nope, "it depends" is absolutely the correct answer, because it genuinely does depend on the individual's wants and needs. Would it have been better for me to apply a blanket statement to everyone regardless of their personal and/or regional differences?