Strops Part 3 | CBN, Venev, Diamond Gunny Juice on Denim | Knife Sharpening Test
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- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2024
- Installment number 3 brings us some higher quality abrasives: CBN Venev Diamond Paste and Gunny Juice, but will they perform on a Denim strop? The search is on for the perfect strop!
Also check out my tutorials on dual grit sharpening.
What's a dual grit edge, you may ask?
Think: high performance aggressive knife edge!!! This method for versatile razor sharp knives is fast, easy, and leads to edge retention increases of up to 50% in some tasks! Watch my tutorials to quickly learn innovative hand sharpening techniques with whetstone, diamond plate, & honing strop.
The dual grit method is a specific method for sharpening one side of the edge coarse and the other fine - an updated tutorial is below:
• CPM MagnaCut Dual Grit...
And the results have been observed by independent testing:
• You Won't Believe How ...
If you're curious about the science behind the edge mechanics, check out this scienceofsharp.com article in which Dr. Todd Simpson analyzes the effect:
scienceofsharp...
Please consider supporting me on Patreon if this helps you,
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Whether your passion is bushcraft knives, survival blades, hunting & fishing knives, edc knives, or kitchen knives - this method could revolutionize the way you sharpen your knives and make your edge last longer!!!
#thehomeslicesharpening #dualgritedge #dualgrittest
The secret of a really sharp knife.
Hi Gabe,
I succeeded, I now understand why and how a knife becomes really sharp during a sharpening session.
The first thing you need is patience, but of course you already knew that.
Step two: I sharpen a normal vegetable knife at an angle of 23 to 25 degrees and a normal meat knife at an angle of 25 to 27 degrees.
There are of course always exceptions.
I stuck 2-3-4-5-6-7 metal plates with paper tape and left one third of the metal ring free of tape, so that I have 2 positions per plate stack.
I put the knife on a whetstone and feel what angle the knife wants to assume.
Then I adjust which picture stack fits under it and at what position.
I measure this with a digital protractor that I first calibrate on the stone and can adjust the angle to my desired degree position with pieces of paper tape.
During the sharpening process I measure every new start.
Step three: I bought a DMT Dia-Flat Lapping Plate some time ago (230 euros) and that was the start of really sharp.
The plate has a 95 grit front and a smooth back. (Certificate of flatness less than 0.0005/po)
I placed each whetstone on the smooth side of the lapping plate and used the digital protractor calibrated on the smooth side of the lapping plate to see if the deviation of the whetstone was caused by the back or the front of the whetstone.
It took me almost two months to get all 16 whetstones flat because I didn't use them properly in the past.
During sharpening I use the same side of the whetstone each time and after use I scratch it with a pencil and flatten the whetstone on the lapping plate.
Step Three: I call it "The Flow of the Knife".
What I mean by that is, I place the blade with the Edge on the smooth side of the lapping plate, now I can see where the blade is straight and where it is curved.
I sharpen the straight part of the knife using a different method than the curved part of the knife.
I can also see if the blade has an even flow.
Sometimes this Flow is gone due to incorrectly sharpened knives or the knife has never had a Flow.
What I then do is make the knife extremely blunt with the Edge on the 120 grit stone and make a correct Flow for the knife.
Up to and including the 400 grit stone I make corrections to the Flow, after that it is as it is.
Additional tidbits:
A wide blade is easier to control than a narrow blade.
From the 320 grit stone each whetstone is the last stone and by that I mean that from there the blade gets a full De-Burring already starting on the whetstone and then I measure the blade about 3 cm from the start.
The magnifying glass is your friend, it shows you what next step the knife needs.
At the end of the sharpening session I measure the knife in three different places to see the uniformity of the sharpness.
If there is uncertainty during the measurement, for example when it is too low, I measure again with the test clip to be sure.
I already explained my measuring method to you and I also made a video of it on my youtube channel. ruclips.net/video/NlXw_yllC20/видео.html
Less than 80 BESS is quite normal these days.
Example last 4 knives:
23 degrees 58 78 72 BESS
23.5 degrees 78 68 67 BESS
26.75 degrees 104 140 132 BESS (this knife is almost used up, too often incorrectly sharpened)
22 Degrees 61 65 71 BESS
Sometimes when I measure a knife in the sharpening process and I get between 40 and 50 BESS, but then lose that sharpness while polishing the knife.
That means that even sharper is possible.
Sharpening a knife is never perfect, but it is precisely through the imperfection that I learn the most.
Too much pressure, too little pressure.
If you've come this far and have any questions I can make a video of it, but filming the whole session is too much for me and especially having to get up and turn the camera off and on every 10 minutes. to make.
Greetings and sharp knives
bonus track: ruclips.net/video/c5MiyNTZKHY/видео.html
Awesome - thanks heaps for the explanation - love your method and dedication!
@@homeslicesharpening The last step is de-burring and stropping and that's where the true sharpness comes in and where I have the most to learn abou
What are those numbers, either the initial sharpening wasnt good enough, but generally those are way to few passes on way to short strops.
I literally use random kitchen field cleaner by poliboy, unknown abrasive, maybe AlOx, propably not that fine.
But 15 (alternating) passes per side on a 30cm strop does wonders in deburring compared to 5 or even 10 passes per side.
It gets free standing hair popping (around 50g).
Thats 450cm stropped per side, 900cm for both.
A super interesting video on a topic always wondered me would be: How much stropping stops improving the edge noticably/ whats the sweetspot of improvement vs time. :D
Great video series!
Thanks for the input again bro - I appreciate the specifics. What is your strop made of? Wood? Leather?
These are not my normal strops - I just made some off-cuts for testing. I normally use a 30 cm strop. You're gonna laugh at the kangaroo leather strops in the next few videos - they are like 2 inches long, but I didn't want to waste any more roo leather than I had to haha!
I'd imagine your abrasive is fairly similar to Mother's Mag, probably.
Yeah, I would be super interested to find the break-even point beyond which more stropping doesn't produce any better results. I struggle though because dual grit seems to often benefit from minimal deburring, so I can only incorporate this research into my fine edges which is less of my overall sharpening load.
Also interested in different abrasive sizes. I'm kinda working with limited resources at the moment, and as I said in your other comment, I am several weeks/maybe months at this point between filming and publishing - so don't be offended if the videos take a while to reflect me receiving your input.
But I have! And I value your experience and ideas. I have never got a knife to 50 BESS. I make the mid 80's regularly on better steel as of now, but I have generally had to figure out everything myself (where have you been? Haha, just kidding dude).
Take care.
By the way. Gunny juice is manufactured by Venev. Using an extremely low percentage of poly diamond in its formula because of it's oil based binder ability to work with the deagglomeration process. Where any quantity of over 3 percent will void the process. If you find that you're getting a grinding effect from another diamond product , which is also incorrect. That quantity ratio is extremely too aggressive and is most probably mono diamond,which is not as effective as poly diamond, but is much more durable.
Cool - I am ok with being incorrect. I am incorrect a lot, as all honest, humble, realistic human beings are willing to admit.
What do you think is better than Gunny Juice? What do you use? How do you observe the results being different?
Take care.
I have lapped airsoft barrels with 40 to .50 micron diamond as well as various polishes including Brasso and Mother's Mag and aluminum, and MM seems to leave the shiniest finish afterwards. I wonder what the actual particle size of the MM is compared to everything else, as I don't really see a reason why else it would be smoother. I don't think it would work on any of the cooler steels with harder carbides, but for more average stuff I think it's definitely the move, and is maybe the reason diamond seems to not do as well as it could just be a much larger grit.
Looks like you may need to get a few identical blades made of a CPM steel now that the limits of that cheap stuff have been reached on the BESS machine.
Also, have you seen the 15V Mule that's coming out?
Looks like the factory edge Cedric got really kicked ass. That steel sorta flew under my radar, but KSN graphs place it really highly over like S90 and S110 for wear I think.
Yeah bro - Sal Glesser sent me a 15V Paramilitary 2 - it's in the works... SO stoked!
Todd Simpson of ScienceOfSharp checked out Mother's Mag I believe, and found it to have particles between 1-10 microns if I remember correctly. I think it creates a higher gloss due to the fact that as a softer abrasive it does not bite in as deep (similar to what Vadim Kraichuk observed about traditional water-stones polishing better than diamond due to different/more gentle abrasive characteristics).
Take care!
Sent me one too, of course I sent him $200+ first…..😊😊
@@stevenlachance8576 🤣 ah too true. I have sent him $200 more times than I'd like to admit at this point haHA - this comment made my night!
Thanks again for the insights. Do you or anyone else willing to share . . . ever test these BESS rated cutting edges knives in your food preparation ?
If so . . . what range of BESS numbers yield a perceptibly sharp &/or a perceptibly dull ( in need of sharpening) culinary prep knife ?
I have tried fine and dual grit in the kitchen. A dual grit edge is fairly satisfying in kitchen prep up to just below 200 g in my experience due to added aggression. A fine edge can lose its aggression below that, it's hard for me to put a number to it accurately but probably stops being satisfying to me around 170 or so.
Fine sharpened knives feel "normal-ish good-ish" below 150 g (especially when fresh), and the 95 BESS knife felt REALLY good.
I used it and a dual grit back to back and found they did nearly everything with similar ease while the edges were fresh. The surprising outliers were meat (where I thought the dual grit aggression would shine, but actually the 95 BESS fine edge was significantly better), and tomatoes (where you would think 95 BESS would be low enough to last, but the dual grit's tomato-skin-splitting ability endured much better over time).
@@homeslicesharpening Your results are logical to me . . .
Thinner profile blades/cutting edges (including dual grit cutting edges) performed well on delicate foods foods with high fluid content.
Meat … a delicate tissues with firmer substrates ( low moisture content food ) cuts better with low diameter cutting edges (95 Gram BESS)
??? On the 95 Gram BESS do you recall blade thickness behind the cutting edge ?
??? Have you tested: Low or High Grit Cutting Edges on extremely thin (0.005” to 0.006”) behind the cutting edge blades ?
@@danielbottner7700 The Victorinox I used at 95 BESS was around .007 - so pretty good. I have a custom that's thinner which I will be testing on soon!
@@homeslicesharpening Working with similar steels . . . 0.005 behind the cutting edge seems to be the limit . . . but they don't stay there long. Probably too much carbon cracking & HRC reduction in the cutting edge from the thinning process on belt grinders. The cutting edges seem to hold out better when I sharpen them back on DMT Diamond plates to about 0.006 behind the cutting edge. I cut up a lot of sweet potatoes & other vegetables so thiner blades = better performance. At 0.010" behind the cutting edge the knife seems to require 2x the force to cut. I need too set-up a test to get real numbers for that comparison.
@@danielbottner7700 Very interesting! That's a cool insight - I wouldn't have sufficient experience necessary with such thin blades to make that observation, so it's cool to hear from you!
So funny you mention Mothers Mag polish . . I've been thinking about using Mother Mag and Aluminum (wheel) Polish for stropping . . it's a mild abrasive which works wonders with headlights. Just don't have that nice flat piece of leather to use for testing . . nor a digital sharp edge testing device . . I'm low budget.
I use Mother's Mag all the time - and no flat leather for me dude, I am all about the homemade denim strop [for initial deburring] at the moment (just cut up a pair of jeans!)
For my full current method check out this video:
ruclips.net/video/1wSgNNs2ISU/видео.html
I don't discuss what i use. You have enough infornation to head into different directions. Hopefully that you get what you need to benefit your final work.
I appreciate the well-wishes. And I genuinely wish you the best also in your sharpening pursuits.
I understand that most people on RUclips are trying to turn a profit. I make roughly $10 per month on RUclips and have neither sought nor attained any sponsorships.
I am here to test the claims of those who sensationalize things and hopefully help novice sharpeners to grow.
I would challenge and encourage you with this:
- Perhaps Vadim and others have acted for their own self-gain. Maybe you are right. However...
- Who is there to help people exit that misleading and inflammatory world if those who believe they have better founded knowledge (such as yourself) remain silent and refuse to help others?
That seems like another form of self-gain or self-preservation to me. I don't judge your motives, I am sure there are understandable causes for the choices you make. But to point out the flaws in others while refusing to share about a better way is not as helpful a response as could be.
Honestly, all the best Abraham. I appreciate your input. Please consider my words.
Have a good day.
If you are aware of agendas, then Vadim should have been your first and most obvious individual with multiple agendas. Example : tormek, Rock hard felt, tormek sharpening compound, paper wheel sharpening and his high speed buffers used as precision equipment. Now there is an ,"AGENDA"!
I'm sorry, I didn't make the connection. Are you saying he was sponsored by Tormek and had conflict of interest?
As far as I'm concerned anyone who can get S35VN to register 27 g BESS off of a commercial grinder definitely knows some good things about deburring. Unless I'm missing something it seems that an edge reading like that would suggest a good amount of precision.
Now I am wondering - what is your goal in telling me all this information? Do you have some suggestion or helpful path forward?
I am most happy to consider all perspectives, but I do not know what you are proposing instead of all the things you have pointed out as bad.
Please let me know.
No,absolutely not sponsored by Tormek.
Tormek has much capitol to lose with Vadim in the picture.
Both luv to capitalize on ignorance.
That accent on Vadim went a long way in financial gains. Who cares if Vadim is actually clueless as to correct abrasives in functionality.
Tormek, is much worse!
You may have missed what was being said by myself. A 27 bess score could be archived by edge thickness reduction.
Besides , what is the point to a 27 bess score to a working knife. It is worthless. That is why razor blades with those scores are disposable. Are you comprehending?
Do your own work to find how things operate correctly. I'm not here to educate sharpeners. You become good or excellent at your craft by self education. Not by RUclips grifters.
Why would you feel that Venev pastes,of any abrasive, is actually an excellent product.
Do you know and can verify the paste composition. Percentage of abrasive
You are putting too much credibility in the Venev brand. I suggest a change in your brand of abrasives.
Greetings Abraham - this is an old video. In a more recent series I just filmed on stropping (not released yet) I was given some StroppyStuff Diamond Compound by Max (the maker) and it is all I use now.
It is SO much higher cncentration (it sounds like a sharpening stone when you put the knife to the leather - so awesome!!!).
The reason why I thought Venev was good was because I have a very low channel budget, and the stuff I had before was crap from Amazon made in China. The Venev was what I could afford at the time, and much more uniform and concentrated than the terrible Amazon nonsense I had been using.
I developed a sharpening technique where you use 2 different stones for edge finishing (coarse and fine) - one on each side of the edge. I initially had believed that you cannot use harsh/hard abrasives like diamond on it, and that you needed to be careful not to strop too much.
For this reason, I avoided stropping in the past. Due to this, I am not as skilled as others are, and my knowledge and experience are limited. I also distrust some of what is promoted on social media as people seem to have their own agenda at times.
This is why I started this series to find out what works from quantitative testing, and this is why you often will find that my knowledge about stropping is sadly lacking at the time I filmed these videos.
I am most open to suggestions, and appreciate your comments.
Thanks.
Max the maker , may have a Russian last name! Why, you ask? Well it is sold by gritomatic , which happens to sell and I believe the retail outlet for Venev abrasives.
If this product is a diamond abrasives that is dispersed from a spray bottle, then it cannot have a normal percentage of paste abrasive. Reason is clogging of the orifice!
@@abrahamkalichman6845 Have you ever used it?
Max's last name is Sangster - of English and Scottish origin. He originates in, and resides in England. He has a RUclips channel that is open to all where he demonstrates the efficacy of his product and resistance to agglomeration:
ruclips.net/video/y8d4WcU-Dvc/видео.html
Gritomatic is a retail outlet in Cartersville Georgia. They stock and sell products of many quality levels from many different nations and origins including Japan, USA, Ukraine, and Russia.
Max sells directly through his own website - I do not know what his relationship is with Gritomatic and neither do you.
I would recommend that we keep assumption and speculation to a minimum in this conversation.
@@abrahamkalichman6845 Pastes are not thick because they're high concentration, they're thick because the carrier is designed to be "sticky" because they're for geometric polishing. Eg you apply the paste to an object and then use a buffing wheel on the object.
Jay stroppy. I believe you are a distributor for Venev the manufacturer of the pastes that you sell under the name of , "stroppy stuff,". If that is correct all of your supposed information is second hand from a Russian affiliated maker.
No. Vadim was not sponsered by Tormek. Vadim became a abrasives leach, to sell his amateur products to The tormek community .
Under the guise of s tormek guru. He was a hanger on to the tormek system for financial gains.
As far as the 27 bess score. That has never been repeated by anyone, as far as i have known. Either it was false or it was a total mistake. I believe vadim had a retail section on his videos to purchase his products. I have an electronics expert that can change any number that one needs, to serve their purpose.
A 27 bess has never been recorded anywhere at any time by a multitude si called sharoening experts. that id saying volumes. But here is Vadim and his tormek system with some adjustments, having a score that has never been duplicated. Vadim must have been a genius!,😅
Roman at Kase Knives Switzerland has achieved a BESS score of 4 g on Wicked Edge fixed system:
ruclips.net/user/shortsebfGawqdSdM
What was that knife geometry on that score? Was that machine certified to be correct,? Otherwise. Bullshit walks!
Oh! By the way, there is a major distinction between a razor blade and a culinary knife or EDC knife. I believe cutting anything harder than water will dull the( #4 bess score, as you have previously described), as soon as that blade is uncovered will dull by itself as the wind will break the edge .
On the other hand, a working knife has to maintain its edge for at least 4 minutes😮. So the bess score of 4, on a knife edge is stupid as stupid gets.
It's doesn't matter which contraption was used to get that score.
By the way, how toothy was the edge? I guess no one found out because it will dull as soon as the wind hits it!