You are spot on 💯. It’s disturbing how Christians treat each other on social media, we are becoming a stumbling block to both believers and unbelievers. If Paul can see us right now, we will be rebuked. Please keep speaking up, you mirrored what’s in my heart also. Let’s continue to pray for one another ❤
Thankful for voices like Gavin’s that challenge Christ’s church to pursue love even within disagreement. I’m reminded of the words Jesus spoke to His disciples in John 13:34-35, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Are the church(s) violating love when they defend their doctrine by blaming the other for error? E.g. Catholics blaming Luther for troubles in the RCC. And Protestants who blame or criticize doctrine on other Protestant denominations?
@@NP-vk8dedepends on how they approach it. Gavin does a great job at being loving and respectful while standing firm in his position and lovingly challenging bad thought.
Amen Gavin. Civil discourse seems to be disappearing in our society, even at the family level (never mind how bad most social media or news media is at this). There’s this desperate fear of being “wrong” or to gloat when we’re sure we’re right it seems to me and an inability to properly debate, argue or discuss an issue without slinging mud. So sad, but there are some very few bright lights in the digital universe that give me encouragement. I hope you continue to become one.
C.S. Lewis had something to say about this: “Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one's first feeling, 'Thank God, even they aren't quite so bad as that,' or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally we shall insist on seeing everything -- God and our friends and ourselves included -- as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed for ever in a universe of pure hatred.”
@ 7:55 "...we're defending the truth and we forget to be humbled under the truth. The truth becomes a club to fight the enemy over there...we should be on our faces in repentance before God over how hard this is." Thank you Gavin.
6 дней назад+10
Thank you. This is such a good reminder, especially with the temptation to sling arrows on social media. The verse that came to mind as you spoke was, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Thank you for making this video! So much. My sophomore year of college, so 2020-21, God opened my eyes to how I was like what you're talking about in this video. My presence on social media was a presence of mocking other people. I was unbelievably proud and I didn't know what I was talking about, too 😭. By God's grace he opened my eyes and began to work on my heart. It's been one of the joys of my life to know now that by Jesus' grace I'm loving! I was actually just talking with a coworker of mine, who isn't a believer, about this. He was really kind and said that I'm a really good man and I began to share with him how I was incredibly proud in highschool and early college and how Jesus worked on my heart to where I am a completely different man today. He was really surprised (thank you Jesus! 😊) All that to say, this is a burden on my heart, too, because I was there once. Jesus kept pursuing me, he wouldn't let me go and be lost in my sin, and he's completely transformed me. I want to see others walk in his love in this way as well.
I watched Mike Winger talk about this. He said that he literally didn't care at all about what Augustine had to say. I click on this video, first thing Gavin talks about is what Augustine said. The duality of man lol Edit: This comment is slightly deceptive as I can see from the replies. It's not that Mike doesn't care about Church History or the Church Fathers, but rather on his channel he mostly focuses on using Scripture to see if an idea is biblical or not. Go watch his livestream, he makes good biblically sound content.
I really liked this video, Gavin. It was really thoughtful and well articulated, but more than that, your heart behind this video really came through. I could relate to some of the internal wrestling about how we apply NT principles to geo-politics, that you described. Thanks for being open and honest and genuine, and for making this video! I appreciate you and your ministry.
Very good. “The abuse does not take away the proper use.” Thanks for sharing. It is easy to assume evil motives and intentions for those we disagree with. Maybe we are right or maybe through respectful exchanges we will find mutual sincerity to find the truth and promote peace.
“If you want to change the world, go home and love your family” ~ Mother Teresa👩🏻❤️👨🏻🤰🏻🤱🏻🌎 Mother Teresa believed that people should start with their families and those closest to them, and then extend their love and service to their neighbors, country, and the world.
The Israelites would harvest their crops in a circle, leaving the four corners for the sojourner and the needy. This is a beautiful example of a godly ordered love. The farmer did not place the sojourner ahead of his family. This is not what he was commanded. Rather, by thw means he worked to provide for his family, he also alloted and prepared for a certain amount of that to love the stranger.
I think there are many concepts we should learn about how the Bible tells the ancient Israelites to care for the foreigner. God did not command them to create a food storage filled by taxing farmers, reserved for foreigners or widows to come take. No, God told them to just keep portions of their farms unharvested for foreigners and widows to come harvest themselves. I don't know how to apply this in our modern economy, but I am inspired by the philosophy and morality behind it. It is not feeding the foreigner/poor by taxing the citizen. It requires the foreigner/poor to still work for their food, but at the same time, it is ensuring that the foreigner/poor have their needs met.
@@5BBassist4Christ agreed. I’m reminded of the Torah stating there shall be no poor among you. First and foremost, that means if you are capable of earning a living then you are obligated to do so. “Six days work is done.” Now, if a neighbor falls on hard times the corners of our fields are available to get them through the rough patch so that they don’t become permanently poor. This is mostly practical on a neighborhood or community scale but is also scalable on a national level if corruption is kept at bay and good stewardship prevails among our leaders. Thats a big IF though.
@@Ikezeek-f1c I agree with both of you. Removing the onus on the individual to actively love his neighbor by allowing him to simply pay a tax and have the government do that duty instead not only is antithetical to God's law, but deprives both the individual giving and the person receiving the benefit of fraternal love and brotherhood, among other spiritual and practical damage. I also agree that the more granular administration of these concepts looks, the more effective and beneficial it is to everyone. I think we had a window of time when this was somewhat effectively playing out in our modern world, when the church created hospitals and cared for the poor and the widow, but we have replaced that duty with the state, and have sacrificed a measure of Imago Dei in the transaction, in my humble opinion. We grow as people when we actively love our neighbor, and receive the corresponding blessings as a result.
This is why I wish we had more Biblical discussions instead of debates. Discussions foster a more brotherly atmosphere in which our disagreements can really be brought to the surface and addressed. Debates on the other hand usually end up with the two sides talking past one another and the supporters of both sides insulting one another in the live chat. God bless.
Garvin, I love the way you present-even though I usually disagree with some of your interpretations. Thank you for your thorough explanations and the nuance you bring. It shows that you are not just trying to get clicks but that you genuinely believe what you say. For example, your research on Aquinas in this video was exemplary.
Super appreciate you Gavin and this video, your explanation of the order, and especially the last bit about treating one another with kindness and how to disagree. God bless!
Thank you for approaching some of the more current topics of our time. There are lessons to be learned from church history as well as the present. Your videos are always a blessing Dr. Ortlund!
Thank you so much for all of this. I've loosely followed this situation with J.D. Vance, and at first glance I didn't really understand what he was saying that could be controversial. I try in my discourse to approach all conversations with grace, or at least with and open mind. Seeing the way that you have made rebuttal videos against other peoples' ideas has really helped to show me what it looks like to show grace when in discourse, and I strive to conduct public disagreements with others in the way that you do. Thank you so much for your work!
Your admonition/encouragement - both urgently needed. Harshness and contempt in our tone are a reflection of contempt for others, not a greater love for Christ and the truth. They don’t just coarsen the dialogue, they coarsen us and our individual walk, let alone our witness. This has been a very painful, ugly 6 -12 months or so as far as public discourse is concerned. Ugh! I am working with a group of students right now and part of the goal is to advocate for and model respectful conversations where listening is prioritized. We all need hefty dose of prayer and repentance if we’re going to make progress 🥵
I'm glad I made it to the end of your video for your last point. I feel the same way regarding disagreements amongst believers. I've only been following the Christian social media scene for a few years and already I see the same arguments pop up everywhere. It's almost as if the enemy knows these topics are easy pickings to prevent or blunt the body of Christ from bearing fruit for the kingdom.
Thank you for the video and the reminder that I need to help and pray for my family, church and local community more than dwelling on the wars out there in the world
And this is why I’m only on RUclips for Social Media. :P I’m grateful for your commentary Gavin. Let us hope this is heard and practiced more carefully by all Christians, despite our policy disagreements! :)
Thank you Gavin… I so appreciate that you can humbly acknowledge the complexities of applying the principle to contemporary issues while maintaining that there’s a long history of wise Christian teachers teaching the principle.
I cringe when content makers put out responses to events in the 24 hour news cycle, mostly because they usually just play the role of predictable robotic partisan, rather than express anything truly meaningful. So I was apprehensive clicking on the video, but you did a good job on this Gavin. If you continue producing content on the events of the 24 hour news cycle, the buzz topics, etc, please continue to be bipartisan and thoughtful, and continue to put the same effort into avoiding the tribalistic thinking that plagues us. In my opinion that partisan tribalism is so unthinking that it nearly harms our witness as bad as the malicious way it is often expressed.
What exactly is wrong about tribalism? I can't help but feel the opposition to it is propagandistic thinking programmed into us for only the last few generations. Nothing about tribalism contradicts everyone treating each other with respect and dignity and loving each other at all. Forcing melting pot/multiculturalism ideology on people I would argue is more immoral and causes more societal harm than tribalism itself.
"Do what you will, there is going to be some benevolence, as well as some malice, in your patient's soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbours whom he meets every day and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference, to people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence largely imaginary." Screwtape Letters
Thanks for taking us back to the primary sources of Ordo Amoris, nuancing it with further context, and then brining in the parable of the Good Samaritan to show the importance of crossing barriers to help our neighbors. That's how my Ethics Professor at RTS addressed this same topic just last year. Also, I'm preordering that book!
Really liked this one, and I'm very much looking forward to the book. I've been having issues lately discussing topics with friends who have such an emotional reaction to things where it just feels hard to discuss our differences. Like a situation, where I'm trying to have good faith discussion, but having a different opinion is seen as hostility. Im very saddened by how deeply affected people are to the sway of social media and modern propaganda.
Thanks for this video, Gavin, your RUclips channel is such a blessing to many of us and I always appreciate how you approach topics such as these. Also, Congratulations for hitting 100K 😃
Thank you. Aquinas does apply this to political fellowship/immigration, which is limited on the basis of shared kinship, among other bases, in the Summa (II.1 question 105 art. 3) and commonality of form being a cause of love in (II.1 question 27 art. 3), using Sirach 13:19 ("Every beast loveth its like") to make his point.
Excellent video! I've largely discontinued my social media use because of the issues you describe. For myself, and I suspect many others, it's all too easy to just want to be "right" when arguing about something online. I find it much easier to just talk face to face. I look forward to the book. Thanks for what you do. Keep it up!
Love is at the center of a Christian's relationship. I love the point you made on this - and it speaks to some recent experiences of mine. I fully agree with your point on the present danger in politics and on social media. Christ calls us to treat ALL people with love and a generous spirit - to turn the other cheek. I recall that in earlier videos you called for an irenic spirit - I think this is fundamentally the point. It is good to hate what is evil, but never to hate one another (especially brothers and sisters). The Church in Ephesus springs to mind as a good example of this (Rev 2:1-7). Despite the ease it takes to hate others because of their evil or apparent evil, Christ calls us to be peacemakers and to love our enemies. You really spoke to my heart. 🙏
11:15 “the way we have disagreements. We’re testing each other’s heads off” Absolutely. Non-zero sum conversations. This Little Corner of the Internet (TLC) the community downstream of Paul Vanderklay is the best at this. Imo. Seriously, Gavin, you should check this out if you really care about this issue. Truly. We are modeling how to do this in real time. Live. Live-streaming. And the relationships are primary. Not the ideas per se. It’s rooted in Incarnation and relational ontology. Good stuff. I’m very passionate about this. Much love. Appreciated how you closed out your video.
Gavin, maybe you can explore the seeking of God via prayer, asking people how they pray, what they pray for, what do they confess, etc. We need to be seeking God together, corporately, together in prayer, praise, confession and thanksgiving. I believe God will answer us as we seek His will, counsel and more on all these issues. Thank you for setting a tone that is gracious and invites people to engage in a Christian manner. Keep up the good work. God is real and is working in through and over us getting His will done to the glory of Christ. May we participate in the Lord and bless Him. Talk it through with love, it is simple. As you say. Thank you for preaching! Don't always apologize for that. Keep going, man. God is with you.
"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"
Psalm 37:18-20 18 The Lord knows the days of the upright, And their inheritance shall be forever. 19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time, And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. 20 But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away.
lol, I clicked on this video wondering what I would be be disagreeing with you about this time. Then I got to your main point about disagreements online. Two thumbs up this time 👍👍. Until next time my old foe (😜).
As a foreigner I think it’s a positive thing that Vance quoted the Bible or references biblical scholars. A state has obviously a bit different obligations towards the citizens and to me it’s common sense. The judgment and punishment for illegal and criminal migrants is unavoidable. Forgiveness is up to God, or not? As a Christian we have a hierarchy. God first, then our parents and family in our household etc. Whenever we meet and are able to help a person we don’t know or we can be compassionate to the homeless, to addicted people or the sick etc we must do it. With this I guess I agree that there is a hierarchy. Not having or knowing about this hierarchy leads to situations like Selena Gonez beung completely off and anxious because we can’t save or help everyone.
Fantastic, thank you for this one. I do agree that your third point is the one that we ought pay the most heed to in this moment. As we dialogue with people who we disagree with on certain political/religious points, is our main goal to win the day in argument? Or is it to love our brother or sister, even as we honestly discuss these points? I think engaging on social media in topics like this is foolish (for the most part), partially because we tend to lose the grasp of the other's personhood even as we thrill to the battle. Also social media brings a delight for the "mic drop" moments - how easy it is to drop a video or article and then give your one-liner and wait for the applause for your devastating take down? We are oh so arrogant and vain at times. So when we engage in matters like this that many Christians disagree on, can we do so in a spirit of loving our brother? Can we honestly discuss these hard topics with the goal in our heart of loving our brother and what is good for them, without abandoning what is true and right? I think we can, but we need to be careful and self-aware. Firstly, what is in our heart? Is there an adrenaline and anger in our hearts that the other person is WRONG and needs to be corrected and that I have the right answer? (Speaking from experience). Let us pray for the peace and wisdom of God to fill us as we have hard conversations with others. Secondly, in general, I feel it is best to have these conversations both in person and in private, particularly so that the other person feels safe and does not feel you are trying to shame them. Thirdly, when it is necessary to have these conversations in public spaces or online, are we being forthright and humble as we speak, seeking to honour God first and foremost in all things? We can speak truth and live not by lies in our actions and words, but let us seek to do so in the spirit of loving our God and loving our fellow image-bearers.
Michael Knowles offered a useful analogy. Imagine two children are drowning. You want to save both of them. But if you can only save one, you’re naturally going to be inclined to save your own child. Or to save them first. And there is nothing wrong with that. There would be something somewhat disturbing about a person opting to save someone else’s child over their own. This county is bankrupt, and in a bad place. Vance’s position is simple. We have to focus on our own people and our own problems first.
That isn't what Vance said. The question isn't who to help first. He said it's who we LOVE first. That idea is completely unbiblical. The quicker you realize your politicians don't know the Bible, the quicker you can be free of Satan's favorite tool to lull American Christians into lukewarmness.
My only problem is that non Christians aren’t our people. Yes we have moral and financial obligations to my family is one thing… trying to then blanket that under “I have to help my neighbor before actual Christians” is another. These so called Christian nationalist want to ride the fence and live in two worlds. One of blind nationalism and another talking about a theocratic rule.
The question is whether that is an apt analogy for our present reality, or if a more apt one would be that your child fell off his bike and skinned his knee at the same time that you see another person's child drowning. In that second scenario, we would be morally obligated to tend to the drowning child over our own. I honestly don't know which analogy is more applicable to our current political reality.
Good and helpful work, Gavin. Also wanted to shout out Dan McClellan (with whom I often don’t agree) who in his own no-candy-coating way addressed this issue very well.
It is very difficult to type out your objections in a comment and at the same time convey in those texts the love you have for the reader. This is where verbal commentary really helps. You are an excellent example. But I think readers need to recognize this and be more charitable in their hearing. This would help greatly. But it is difficult
Thank you for such an insightful video. I think we should always remember that we are fallible and may be wrong or partially wrong when we debate. The process of argument should be to engage with someone else that you respect to help discern the truth or best course of action together. And even then you both might be wrong.
We sometimes focus too much on the praiseworthiness of the Good Samaritan that we forget the criticism of the priest and the Levite who were expected to take care of their own.
Thank you, Gavin. No you are not off base at all with anything you said in this video. You are one of the most Christ-like voices I have heard on the internet. I pray others (including myself) may follow your example.
People misuse it in both directions, it's true. I definitely find people who use the ordo amoris as a justification to not deport illegal immigrants who break the laws of the country they live in, or to treat America as a purely economic zone as opposed to a nation, but I've also seen people use the ordo amoris to argue for racialist policies and discrimination. As someone in a mixed race relationship it hurts to see people on my own political aisle use the love of family to argue that loving someone of another race is somehow a disorder.
Gavin, you nailed it. The correct understanding of this is so simple, it shocks me that people act so flummoxed by it. The _ordo amoris_ is a corrective to the oversimplification of our responsibility to love our neighbor, wherein unwise persons claim that our obligation to provide assistance to our neighbor is _directly proportional to his need,_ and _no other factors are considered._ This is much like the claim that we should practice Solidarity without any concern for Subsidiarity. It _is_ complicated and nuanced, and _that's fine._ But the general rule is one of concentric circles of moral responsibility, wherein as our connection to the other person becomes progressively more distant, our responsibility for providing their every need becomes progressively less. This responsibility _overlaps_ with their need, such that _if such things could be measured,_ our measured obligation to provide for the other is determined by multiplying the measure of their need by the measure of our distance-determined responsibility for their well-being. That seems straightforward: If points A, B, and C are in a line with gaps of one thousand miles between them, then my responsibility for a person in C is half what it would be for a person in B, even if they have the same level of need, because B is closer to me than C. The nuance and complex comes in when you realize that we don't really measure "closeness" by _miles,_ when we have such things as _culture_ and _family connection_ and _prior association_ to consider. And of course there's no such thing as an objective measurement of responsibility "points" or need "points!" And, as Gavin notes, special care is required to ensure that the sojourner among us is treated as well as the family-member among us, even though he is _not_ actually a family-member, precisely because the temptation is always so strong to abuse the stranger among us and make them feel like an outcast. And with that additional layer of complexity, we lose the ability to claim that the answer is _obvious_ for any particular conundrum, excluding extreme cases. We can answer the question, "Is it okay to murder our children when they get too needy?" of course. And we can answer the question on the opposite extreme: "Are we obligated to give away all our possessions to provide assistance for a person we've never met on the opposite side of the world, whose needs and circumstances we don't even understand?" But in between those extremes, it quickly gets gray.
Bullshit Christianity here. The concentric circles idea is not even a Christian concept. Read Cicero my friend. That’s where this incorrect “order of people I should love more than the next circle” idea comes from.
I posted this video along with a quote where you talk about why you posted this and how we should change the way we speak to each other. And a firestorm of arguing broke out among my right wing friends. I fear we are too far gone now and can only pray that God would have mercy.
Brilliant to highlight our finitude. Too often in discussion of theological, political, philosophical ideals, we focus on the ideas/concepts without reference to temporal realities. There is an error the other way, in which we dismiss spiritual/metaphysical truth to be "practical" as if the temporary is more important than the eternal. Your guidance and example on how to deal with disagreement is equally helpful. If you can't love people you disagree with then your love isn't very Christlike (Luke 5:43-48, I John 4:20, Titus 3:1-11 (which reminds us to be gentle with the wrong because we used to be that way too. In fact, none of us are completely right and entirely holy!)
This concept is consistent with an old axiom: CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME. While this notion is often maligned, and criticised as a justification of selfishness, setting priorities with regards to the obligations placed on Christians is Biblical, as we read in 1 Timothy 5:8 - "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
So helpful, Gavin. And on the point of disagreeing well in the church, YES!. That is such an important idea. So many of today’s interactions grieve me. I look forward to reading the book.
Hello Gavin! First post of the year. Thank you again for your heartfelt insights. Just to complicate things a little further, I would like to mention Pauls words in first Corinthians, chapter 16 verses 1 through 4... Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable that I should go also, they will accompany me. God give us humility and wisdom! I think the conundrum that our feeble hearts face is how to balance justice and mercy... Men become either callous or overly permissive.... But God's judgment is perfect. God help us.
I struggle with this, and I listen to my betters, such as John Lennox and Sean McDowell, and try to emulate their behaviour. Gavin, you're not a bad example either, and I should probably also include Wes Huff.
I think it's also worth noting that the scriptures are telling us as Christians how to treat others. Not necessarily how the government should function. There are certain differences between the obligations and expectations of the individual Christian, or even the church at large and the government. I think we should certainly do our best to love our neighbors as best we can, but it's not wrong to expect the government to have different priorities. God is in control, and raises whom He will into power. Nations rise and fall at His command and plan, and the same is true of its leaders.
Still, governments can and should act in a Christian manner, because they are supposed to be the caretakers of the people they govern. And if you are acting in a Christian manner, you will help those in need, in spite of their distance from your country. Remember what Jesus said, "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." (Matthew 20: 25-27)
One suggestion re illegal immigrants: While they are here, the church should make the effort to reach out to them with love, the Gospel, and help with material needs. This is especially so for families. But this does not mean we approve of them breaking the law, nor shielding them from the law. Just my two cents...
How to have mature discussion and disagreements on social media: have good faith, preferably in-person, unedited conversations with people you have love and respect for. 1 hour+ conversations are very popular online even during this unique attention span era
I am a catholic and I just want you to know how much I appreciate the hard work you do. Thank you gavin this was incredibly well said and so helpful. God bless brother.
I can trace my own aggressive attitude toward others, and there are lots of manifestations of that aggression, back to a lack of one thing. And it is something that I believe is seriously lacking in the church today, and it is called humility. Humility doesn't mean being a whipping boy for bullies, it is responding to aggression by others with a soft and reasonable attitude (Pro 15:1). One more thing I would say relates to love. If we are going to love others then what does that actually mean? We all know that if you ask ten people the meaning of love you will get ten different answers. But it seems to me that Biblical love, which says 'love your neighbour', means to put the other person first, in other words think about their welfare, or at least consider it, before you respond or think about yourself. It may seem impossible, and perhaps it is, but it seems to me that is what the Bible is suggesting.
Yes! It's not Christlike all this contentious attitude that demonizes differences and loses the sense of proportion. I'd love to read your new book 😊 It's been a personal burden learning how to deal with discrepancies in the Church. Blessings from 🇻🇪
You are spot on 💯. It’s disturbing how Christians treat each other on social media, we are becoming a stumbling block to both believers and unbelievers. If Paul can see us right now, we will be rebuked. Please keep speaking up, you mirrored what’s in my heart also. Let’s continue to pray for one another ❤
@@nelidascott6917 true Christians may stumble but the Holy Spirit convicts and we come back to make amends
Especially Catholics and Protestants.
Thankful for voices like Gavin’s that challenge Christ’s church to pursue love even within disagreement. I’m reminded of the words Jesus spoke to His disciples in John 13:34-35, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Are the church(s) violating love when they defend their doctrine by blaming the other for error? E.g. Catholics blaming Luther for troubles in the RCC. And Protestants who blame or criticize doctrine on other Protestant denominations?
@@NP-vk8dedepends on how they approach it. Gavin does a great job at being loving and respectful while standing firm in his position and lovingly challenging bad thought.
@@artax7664 Agreed, he sets an example for all of us!
Amen Gavin. Civil discourse seems to be disappearing in our society, even at the family level (never mind how bad most social media or news media is at this). There’s this desperate fear of being “wrong” or to gloat when we’re sure we’re right it seems to me and an inability to properly debate, argue or discuss an issue without slinging mud. So sad, but there are some very few bright lights in the digital universe that give me encouragement. I hope you continue to become one.
C.S. Lewis had something to say about this:
“Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one's first feeling, 'Thank God, even they aren't quite so bad as that,' or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally we shall insist on seeing everything -- God and our friends and ourselves included -- as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed for ever in a universe of pure hatred.”
@ 7:55 "...we're defending the truth and we forget to be humbled under the truth. The truth becomes a club to fight the enemy over there...we should be on our faces in repentance before God over how hard this is."
Thank you Gavin.
Thank you. This is such a good reminder, especially with the temptation to sling arrows on social media. The verse that came to mind as you spoke was, “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
Thank you for making this video! So much. My sophomore year of college, so 2020-21, God opened my eyes to how I was like what you're talking about in this video. My presence on social media was a presence of mocking other people. I was unbelievably proud and I didn't know what I was talking about, too 😭. By God's grace he opened my eyes and began to work on my heart. It's been one of the joys of my life to know now that by Jesus' grace I'm loving!
I was actually just talking with a coworker of mine, who isn't a believer, about this. He was really kind and said that I'm a really good man and I began to share with him how I was incredibly proud in highschool and early college and how Jesus worked on my heart to where I am a completely different man today. He was really surprised (thank you Jesus! 😊) All that to say, this is a burden on my heart, too, because I was there once. Jesus kept pursuing me, he wouldn't let me go and be lost in my sin, and he's completely transformed me. I want to see others walk in his love in this way as well.
@@buckeyelevi I just commented that we all stumble but true followers of Yeshua come back to make amends, acknowledge their shortcomings.
I watched Mike Winger talk about this. He said that he literally didn't care at all about what Augustine had to say. I click on this video, first thing Gavin talks about is what Augustine said. The duality of man lol
Edit: This comment is slightly deceptive as I can see from the replies. It's not that Mike doesn't care about Church History or the Church Fathers, but rather on his channel he mostly focuses on using Scripture to see if an idea is biblical or not. Go watch his livestream, he makes good biblically sound content.
I appreciate Mike's ministry.
@@TruthUnites As a Wingaling, I appreciate him too!
It is nice to get both perspectives though
@@grandlordkaching9560 This is why I watch both.
Give me Ortlund over winger any day
beautiful message: let us have love in our hearts for those in which we disagree. thank you for that ever-important reminder, Dr. Ortlund.
I really liked this video, Gavin. It was really thoughtful and well articulated, but more than that, your heart behind this video really came through. I could relate to some of the internal wrestling about how we apply NT principles to geo-politics, that you described. Thanks for being open and honest and genuine, and for making this video! I appreciate you and your ministry.
Very good. “The abuse does not take away the proper use.” Thanks for sharing. It is easy to assume evil motives and intentions for those we disagree with. Maybe we are right or maybe through respectful exchanges we will find mutual sincerity to find the truth and promote peace.
Totally agree the way we are disagreeing is damaging our witnesss.
Lying about God is massively serious. Which is what the "no distinction" guys are doing.
Yep. Jesus only promised to build one Church, and it still exists. But many people know little of and want less to do with Catholicism.
You’re absolutely correct, Gavin! Thanks again for being a model of discourse in a difficult world.
“If you want to change the world, go home and love your family” ~ Mother Teresa👩🏻❤️👨🏻🤰🏻🤱🏻🌎
Mother Teresa believed that people should start with their families and those closest to them, and then extend their love and service to their neighbors, country, and the world.
The Israelites would harvest their crops in a circle, leaving the four corners for the sojourner and the needy. This is a beautiful example of a godly ordered love. The farmer did not place the sojourner ahead of his family. This is not what he was commanded. Rather, by thw means he worked to provide for his family, he also alloted and prepared for a certain amount of that to love the stranger.
Very good example of what ancient Torah observances look like, and how they remain relevant in today’s disciple of Christ.
I think there are many concepts we should learn about how the Bible tells the ancient Israelites to care for the foreigner. God did not command them to create a food storage filled by taxing farmers, reserved for foreigners or widows to come take. No, God told them to just keep portions of their farms unharvested for foreigners and widows to come harvest themselves.
I don't know how to apply this in our modern economy, but I am inspired by the philosophy and morality behind it. It is not feeding the foreigner/poor by taxing the citizen. It requires the foreigner/poor to still work for their food, but at the same time, it is ensuring that the foreigner/poor have their needs met.
@@5BBassist4Christ agreed. I’m reminded of the Torah stating there shall be no poor among you. First and foremost, that means if you are capable of earning a living then you are obligated to do so. “Six days work is done.” Now, if a neighbor falls on hard times the corners of our fields are available to get them through the rough patch so that they don’t become permanently poor. This is mostly practical on a neighborhood or community scale but is also scalable on a national level if corruption is kept at bay and good stewardship prevails among our leaders. Thats a big IF though.
@@Ikezeek-f1c I agree with both of you. Removing the onus on the individual to actively love his neighbor by allowing him to simply pay a tax and have the government do that duty instead not only is antithetical to God's law, but deprives both the individual giving and the person receiving the benefit of fraternal love and brotherhood, among other spiritual and practical damage. I also agree that the more granular administration of these concepts looks, the more effective and beneficial it is to everyone. I think we had a window of time when this was somewhat effectively playing out in our modern world, when the church created hospitals and cared for the poor and the widow, but we have replaced that duty with the state, and have sacrificed a measure of Imago Dei in the transaction, in my humble opinion. We grow as people when we actively love our neighbor, and receive the corresponding blessings as a result.
@@MikeOzmun indeed!
I absolutely agree with you Gavin! Appreciate your voice in this. Excited to read your new book!
This is why I wish we had more Biblical discussions instead of debates. Discussions foster a more brotherly atmosphere in which our disagreements can really be brought to the surface and addressed. Debates on the other hand usually end up with the two sides talking past one another and the supporters of both sides insulting one another in the live chat. God bless.
Garvin, I love the way you present-even though I usually disagree with some of your interpretations. Thank you for your thorough explanations and the nuance you bring. It shows that you are not just trying to get clicks but that you genuinely believe what you say. For example, your research on Aquinas in this video was exemplary.
Super appreciate you Gavin and this video, your explanation of the order, and especially the last bit about treating one another with kindness and how to disagree. God bless!
Good stuff sir. Thank you for letting God use you in such a peaceful and thoughtful way.
Excellent video! I appreciate and share your concerns about current discourse on social media.
Thank you for approaching some of the more current topics of our time. There are lessons to be learned from church history as well as the present. Your videos are always a blessing Dr. Ortlund!
This is the best take I’ve heard on this issue today.
I love this take and explanation. Well done, Gavin.
Thank you so much for all of this. I've loosely followed this situation with J.D. Vance, and at first glance I didn't really understand what he was saying that could be controversial.
I try in my discourse to approach all conversations with grace, or at least with and open mind. Seeing the way that you have made rebuttal videos against other peoples' ideas has really helped to show me what it looks like to show grace when in discourse, and I strive to conduct public disagreements with others in the way that you do. Thank you so much for your work!
Your admonition/encouragement - both urgently needed. Harshness and contempt in our tone are a reflection of contempt for others, not a greater love for Christ and the truth. They don’t just coarsen the dialogue, they coarsen us and our individual walk, let alone our witness. This has been a very painful, ugly 6 -12 months or so as far as public discourse is concerned. Ugh!
I am working with a group of students right now and part of the goal is to advocate for and model respectful conversations where listening is prioritized. We all need hefty dose of prayer and repentance if we’re going to make progress 🥵
I'm glad I made it to the end of your video for your last point. I feel the same way regarding disagreements amongst believers. I've only been following the Christian social media scene for a few years and already I see the same arguments pop up everywhere. It's almost as if the enemy knows these topics are easy pickings to prevent or blunt the body of Christ from bearing fruit for the kingdom.
Thank you for the video and the reminder that I need to help and pray for my family, church and local community more than dwelling on the wars out there in the world
And this is why I’m only on RUclips for Social Media. :P
I’m grateful for your commentary Gavin. Let us hope this is heard and practiced more carefully by all Christians, despite our policy disagreements! :)
Thank you Gavin… I so appreciate that you can humbly acknowledge the complexities of applying the principle to contemporary issues while maintaining that there’s a long history of wise Christian teachers teaching the principle.
Nicely spoken! I appreciate everything you said here, friend! Also, that book sounds very interesting. I would like to get a copy as soon as I can.
I cringe when content makers put out responses to events in the 24 hour news cycle, mostly because they usually just play the role of predictable robotic partisan, rather than express anything truly meaningful. So I was apprehensive clicking on the video, but you did a good job on this Gavin. If you continue producing content on the events of the 24 hour news cycle, the buzz topics, etc, please continue to be bipartisan and thoughtful, and continue to put the same effort into avoiding the tribalistic thinking that plagues us. In my opinion that partisan tribalism is so unthinking that it nearly harms our witness as bad as the malicious way it is often expressed.
Hear hear
I would argue that he shouldn't be bipartisan, but rather apartisan. What truly matters is what God has revealed to us through the scriptures.
@@aaronadamson7463 I’m pretty sure that’s what the commenter meant. But it’s still a good clarification.
What exactly is wrong about tribalism? I can't help but feel the opposition to it is propagandistic thinking programmed into us for only the last few generations. Nothing about tribalism contradicts everyone treating each other with respect and dignity and loving each other at all. Forcing melting pot/multiculturalism ideology on people I would argue is more immoral and causes more societal harm than tribalism itself.
Not bipartisan. Objective. Sometimes objectivity will be bipartisan, partisan or partisan.
Thank you for sharing this message, sir!
Very nuanced and accurate take. Thank you .
Who else notices in the background that the second volume of Kemnitz on the Council of Trent is missing? Dr. Ortlund is currently cooking…
haha, I wondered if anyone would notice! Currently working on my penance video...
Eagle eyed, sir, eagle eyed
@@TruthUnites Jesus paid it all so you wouldn't have to make a video as penance 😉
👍Great stuff, ! Thanks for all you do.👍 ✝
Good video. Thank you for approaching the topic with thought.
Brilliant gavin. Love your work. Blessings from Yorkshire. UK
"Do what you will, there is going to be some benevolence, as well as some malice, in your
patient's soul. The great thing is to direct the malice to his immediate neighbours whom
he meets every day and to thrust his benevolence out to the remote circumference, to
people he does not know. The malice thus becomes wholly real and the benevolence
largely imaginary." Screwtape Letters
We must first help our own to be able to help others 🙏🏼
Thanks for taking us back to the primary sources of Ordo Amoris, nuancing it with further context, and then brining in the parable of the Good Samaritan to show the importance of crossing barriers to help our neighbors. That's how my Ethics Professor at RTS addressed this same topic just last year. Also, I'm preordering that book!
Really liked this one, and I'm very much looking forward to the book. I've been having issues lately discussing topics with friends who have such an emotional reaction to things where it just feels hard to discuss our differences.
Like a situation, where I'm trying to have good faith discussion, but having a different opinion is seen as hostility. Im very saddened by how deeply affected people are to the sway of social media and modern propaganda.
Thanks for the measured and balance response. I appreciate it.
Great stuff, Gavin. Thank you.
I loved the complimentary sources brought together to make the point.
Love is the answer. We must love those with whom we disagree.
Congrats on 100k! Thanks also for the informative video.
Thank you for a beautifully stated, godly video! Humbling for either "side" as we seek to obey God.
Thanks for this video, Gavin, your RUclips channel is such a blessing to many of us and I always appreciate how you approach topics such as these. Also, Congratulations for hitting 100K 😃
I love you, pastor!
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund.
Thank you. Aquinas does apply this to political fellowship/immigration, which is limited on the basis of shared kinship, among other bases, in the Summa (II.1 question 105 art. 3) and commonality of form being a cause of love in (II.1 question 27 art. 3), using Sirach 13:19 ("Every beast loveth its like") to make his point.
Glad to see you here dude 😎🔝
Your content is fire 🔥
@@samuelramalheira7237 Thank you!
Excellent video!
I've largely discontinued my social media use because of the issues you describe. For myself, and I suspect many others, it's all too easy to just want to be "right" when arguing about something online. I find it much easier to just talk face to face.
I look forward to the book. Thanks for what you do. Keep it up!
Thank you for this. Well said.
Love is at the center of a Christian's relationship. I love the point you made on this - and it speaks to some recent experiences of mine.
I fully agree with your point on the present danger in politics and on social media. Christ calls us to treat ALL people with love and a generous spirit - to turn the other cheek. I recall that in earlier videos you called for an irenic spirit - I think this is fundamentally the point. It is good to hate what is evil, but never to hate one another (especially brothers and sisters). The Church in Ephesus springs to mind as a good example of this (Rev 2:1-7). Despite the ease it takes to hate others because of their evil or apparent evil, Christ calls us to be peacemakers and to love our enemies.
You really spoke to my heart. 🙏
11:15 “the way we have disagreements. We’re testing each other’s heads off”
Absolutely. Non-zero sum conversations.
This Little Corner of the Internet (TLC) the community downstream of Paul Vanderklay is the best at this. Imo.
Seriously, Gavin, you should check this out if you really care about this issue. Truly. We are modeling how to do this in real time. Live. Live-streaming. And the relationships are primary. Not the ideas per se.
It’s rooted in Incarnation and relational ontology.
Good stuff. I’m very passionate about this.
Much love.
Appreciated how you closed out your video.
Gavin, maybe you can explore the seeking of God via prayer, asking people how they pray, what they pray for, what do they confess, etc. We need to be seeking God together, corporately, together in prayer, praise, confession and thanksgiving. I believe God will answer us as we seek His will, counsel and more on all these issues.
Thank you for setting a tone that is gracious and invites people to engage in a Christian manner. Keep up the good work. God is real and is working in through and over us getting His will done to the glory of Christ. May we participate in the Lord and bless Him.
Talk it through with love, it is simple. As you say.
Thank you for preaching! Don't always apologize for that. Keep going, man. God is with you.
"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"
Thank you for this. I feel too many in the comment section are missing that we are called to do BOTH of these things.
So who is more important your parents as per the commandments or a random tax collector.
Who is nr 1 or nr 2
100 % true, however difficult it is. God bless.
Psalm 37:18-20
18 The Lord knows the days of the upright,
And their inheritance shall be forever.
19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,
And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
Excellent video Gavin
You really are a bright spot in a dark internet.
lol, I clicked on this video wondering what I would be be disagreeing with you about this time. Then I got to your main point about disagreements online. Two thumbs up this time 👍👍. Until next time my old foe (😜).
As a foreigner I think it’s a positive thing that Vance quoted the Bible or references biblical scholars.
A state has obviously a bit different obligations towards the citizens and to me it’s common sense. The judgment and punishment for illegal and criminal migrants is unavoidable. Forgiveness is up to God, or not?
As a Christian we have a hierarchy. God first, then our parents and family in our household etc. Whenever we meet and are able to help a person we don’t know or we can be compassionate to the homeless, to addicted people or the sick etc we must do it.
With this I guess I agree that there is a hierarchy. Not having or knowing about this hierarchy leads to situations like Selena Gonez beung completely off and anxious because we can’t save or help everyone.
Fantastic, thank you for this one. I do agree that your third point is the one that we ought pay the most heed to in this moment. As we dialogue with people who we disagree with on certain political/religious points, is our main goal to win the day in argument? Or is it to love our brother or sister, even as we honestly discuss these points?
I think engaging on social media in topics like this is foolish (for the most part), partially because we tend to lose the grasp of the other's personhood even as we thrill to the battle. Also social media brings a delight for the "mic drop" moments - how easy it is to drop a video or article and then give your one-liner and wait for the applause for your devastating take down? We are oh so arrogant and vain at times.
So when we engage in matters like this that many Christians disagree on, can we do so in a spirit of loving our brother? Can we honestly discuss these hard topics with the goal in our heart of loving our brother and what is good for them, without abandoning what is true and right? I think we can, but we need to be careful and self-aware. Firstly, what is in our heart? Is there an adrenaline and anger in our hearts that the other person is WRONG and needs to be corrected and that I have the right answer? (Speaking from experience). Let us pray for the peace and wisdom of God to fill us as we have hard conversations with others. Secondly, in general, I feel it is best to have these conversations both in person and in private, particularly so that the other person feels safe and does not feel you are trying to shame them. Thirdly, when it is necessary to have these conversations in public spaces or online, are we being forthright and humble as we speak, seeking to honour God first and foremost in all things? We can speak truth and live not by lies in our actions and words, but let us seek to do so in the spirit of loving our God and loving our fellow image-bearers.
Thanks for this.
Michael Knowles offered a useful analogy. Imagine two children are drowning. You want to save both of them. But if you can only save one, you’re naturally going to be inclined to save your own child. Or to save them first. And there is nothing wrong with that. There would be something somewhat disturbing about a person opting to save someone else’s child over their own. This county is bankrupt, and in a bad place. Vance’s position is simple. We have to focus on our own people and our own problems first.
💯
That isn't what Vance said. The question isn't who to help first. He said it's who we LOVE first. That idea is completely unbiblical.
The quicker you realize your politicians don't know the Bible, the quicker you can be free of Satan's favorite tool to lull American Christians into lukewarmness.
My only problem is that non Christians aren’t our people. Yes we have moral and financial obligations to my family is one thing… trying to then blanket that under “I have to help my neighbor before actual Christians” is another. These so called Christian nationalist want to ride the fence and live in two worlds. One of blind nationalism and another talking about a theocratic rule.
The question is whether that is an apt analogy for our present reality, or if a more apt one would be that your child fell off his bike and skinned his knee at the same time that you see another person's child drowning. In that second scenario, we would be morally obligated to tend to the drowning child over our own. I honestly don't know which analogy is more applicable to our current political reality.
A false equivalentcy. Using human reason to invent scripture. Scripture is clear on who is my neighbor
I’m surprised Gavin hasn’t mentioned “What it means to be protestant” won CT’s book of the year award.
Interesting and helpful video. Love to hear a discussion of the Bishop Budde controversy speaking of downsides on how we talk to each other.
Good and helpful work, Gavin. Also wanted to shout out Dan McClellan (with whom I often don’t agree) who in his own no-candy-coating way addressed this issue very well.
This came at the perfect time, I was just talking about this issue with a friend of mine
Excellent video
Thank you. Christianity accepts both Equality and Hierarchy as real and right.
I need this book
Good stuff Gavin.
It is very difficult to type out your objections in a comment and at the same time convey in those texts the love you have for the reader. This is where verbal commentary really helps. You are an excellent example. But I think readers need to recognize this and be more charitable in their hearing. This would help greatly. But it is difficult
Thank you for such an insightful video. I think we should always remember that we are fallible and may be wrong or partially wrong when we debate. The process of argument should be to engage with someone else that you respect to help discern the truth or best course of action together. And even then you both might be wrong.
We sometimes focus too much on the praiseworthiness of the Good Samaritan that we forget the criticism of the priest and the Levite who were expected to take care of their own.
Thank you, Gavin. No you are not off base at all with anything you said in this video. You are one of the most Christ-like voices I have heard on the internet. I pray others (including myself) may follow your example.
People misuse it in both directions, it's true. I definitely find people who use the ordo amoris as a justification to not deport illegal immigrants who break the laws of the country they live in, or to treat America as a purely economic zone as opposed to a nation, but I've also seen people use the ordo amoris to argue for racialist policies and discrimination. As someone in a mixed race relationship it hurts to see people on my own political aisle use the love of family to argue that loving someone of another race is somehow a disorder.
Gavin, you nailed it. The correct understanding of this is so simple, it shocks me that people act so flummoxed by it. The _ordo amoris_ is a corrective to the oversimplification of our responsibility to love our neighbor, wherein unwise persons claim that our obligation to provide assistance to our neighbor is _directly proportional to his need,_ and _no other factors are considered._ This is much like the claim that we should practice Solidarity without any concern for Subsidiarity.
It _is_ complicated and nuanced, and _that's fine._
But the general rule is one of concentric circles of moral responsibility, wherein as our connection to the other person becomes progressively more distant, our responsibility for providing their every need becomes progressively less. This responsibility _overlaps_ with their need, such that _if such things could be measured,_ our measured obligation to provide for the other is determined by multiplying the measure of their need by the measure of our distance-determined responsibility for their well-being.
That seems straightforward: If points A, B, and C are in a line with gaps of one thousand miles between them, then my responsibility for a person in C is half what it would be for a person in B, even if they have the same level of need, because B is closer to me than C.
The nuance and complex comes in when you realize that we don't really measure "closeness" by _miles,_ when we have such things as _culture_ and _family connection_ and _prior association_ to consider. And of course there's no such thing as an objective measurement of responsibility "points" or need "points!"
And, as Gavin notes, special care is required to ensure that the sojourner among us is treated as well as the family-member among us, even though he is _not_ actually a family-member, precisely because the temptation is always so strong to abuse the stranger among us and make them feel like an outcast.
And with that additional layer of complexity, we lose the ability to claim that the answer is _obvious_ for any particular conundrum, excluding extreme cases. We can answer the question, "Is it okay to murder our children when they get too needy?" of course. And we can answer the question on the opposite extreme: "Are we obligated to give away all our possessions to provide assistance for a person we've never met on the opposite side of the world, whose needs and circumstances we don't even understand?"
But in between those extremes, it quickly gets gray.
Bullshit Christianity here. The concentric circles idea is not even a Christian concept. Read Cicero my friend. That’s where this incorrect “order of people I should love more than the next circle” idea comes from.
Great video!
I posted this video along with a quote where you talk about why you posted this and how we should change the way we speak to each other. And a firestorm of arguing broke out among my right wing friends. I fear we are too far gone now and can only pray that God would have mercy.
Brilliant to highlight our finitude. Too often in discussion of theological, political, philosophical ideals, we focus on the ideas/concepts without reference to temporal realities. There is an error the other way, in which we dismiss spiritual/metaphysical truth to be "practical" as if the temporary is more important than the eternal.
Your guidance and example on how to deal with disagreement is equally helpful. If you can't love people you disagree with then your love isn't very Christlike (Luke 5:43-48, I John 4:20, Titus 3:1-11 (which reminds us to be gentle with the wrong because we used to be that way too. In fact, none of us are completely right and entirely holy!)
This concept is consistent with an old axiom: CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME. While this notion is often maligned, and criticised as a justification of selfishness, setting priorities with regards to the obligations placed on Christians is Biblical, as we read in 1 Timothy 5:8 - "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
So helpful, Gavin. And on the point of disagreeing well in the church, YES!. That is such an important idea. So many of today’s interactions grieve me. I look forward to reading the book.
Hello Gavin! First post of the year. Thank you again for your heartfelt insights.
Just to complicate things a little further, I would like to mention Pauls words in first Corinthians, chapter 16 verses 1 through 4...
Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it seems advisable that I should go also, they will accompany me.
God give us humility and wisdom!
I think the conundrum that our feeble hearts face is how to balance justice and mercy... Men become either callous or overly permissive.... But God's judgment is perfect.
God help us.
I struggle with this, and I listen to my betters, such as John Lennox and Sean McDowell, and try to emulate their behaviour. Gavin, you're not a bad example either, and I should probably also include Wes Huff.
Here is what Elon is missing from the Bible. It states to "honor your parents." Honoring is actually respect, which doesn't necessarily involve love.
6:51 Indonesia mentioned!! 🟥⬜🔴⚪🟥⬜🔴⚪
😂😂😂
😅😅
I think it's also worth noting that the scriptures are telling us as Christians how to treat others. Not necessarily how the government should function. There are certain differences between the obligations and expectations of the individual Christian, or even the church at large and the government. I think we should certainly do our best to love our neighbors as best we can, but it's not wrong to expect the government to have different priorities. God is in control, and raises whom He will into power. Nations rise and fall at His command and plan, and the same is true of its leaders.
Still, governments can and should act in a Christian manner, because they are supposed to be the caretakers of the people they govern. And if you are acting in a Christian manner, you will help those in need, in spite of their distance from your country. Remember what Jesus said,
"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant." (Matthew 20: 25-27)
Agreed. Vance should not have brought up a Christian doctrine to defend the actions of the government.
One suggestion re illegal immigrants: While they are here, the church should make the effort to reach out to them with love, the Gospel, and help with material needs. This is especially so for families. But this does not mean we approve of them breaking the law, nor shielding them from the law. Just my two cents...
How to have mature discussion and disagreements on social media: have good faith, preferably in-person, unedited conversations with people you have love and respect for. 1 hour+ conversations are very popular online even during this unique attention span era
I am a catholic and I just want you to know how much I appreciate the hard work you do. Thank you gavin this was incredibly well said and so helpful. God bless brother.
I totally agree with you about the way Christians treat non-christians and each other desperately needs to change!
Good discussion.
Well done, Dr. Ortlund. This should be obvious to a Bible reading Christian.
There are different commandments
Love God
Love your neighbor
Love the Stranger
Love your enemies
Disciples Love one another.
I can trace my own aggressive attitude toward others, and there are lots of manifestations of that aggression, back to a lack of one thing. And it is something that I believe is seriously lacking in the church today, and it is called humility. Humility doesn't mean being a whipping boy for bullies, it is responding to aggression by others with a soft and reasonable attitude (Pro 15:1). One more thing I would say relates to love. If we are going to love others then what does that actually mean? We all know that if you ask ten people the meaning of love you will get ten different answers. But it seems to me that Biblical love, which says 'love your neighbour', means to put the other person first, in other words think about their welfare, or at least consider it, before you respond or think about yourself. It may seem impossible, and perhaps it is, but it seems to me that is what the Bible is suggesting.
Yes! It's not Christlike all this contentious attitude that demonizes differences and loses the sense of proportion. I'd love to read your new book 😊 It's been a personal burden learning how to deal with discrepancies in the Church. Blessings from 🇻🇪