Scott I really appreciate your thoughtful approach to this topic. As a workshop instructor I really appreciated your perspectives on asking the client to know what they want from the workshop and to think through if they are looking more for a guide or a teacher or both. The more we all can be clear about expectations the better experience for everyone!
Thanks Scott! Wow what a surprise to be mentioned here! We thank you so much for mentioning our company in Tanzania! You know you and Tricia are welcome to come anytime!!
I first did workshops to help with technical aspects but now looking for tour about an area, various perspectives of composition, and interaction with the leaders and other participants. I just discovered you and love your approach.
Thanks, I also like to educate and talk a little about environment (fun facts). When I tour something, I like a leader that shares some stories and interesting tidbits!
HaHa, who knew I was so curious about workshops? I found this video very useful and never gave workshops a second thought before. Thanks for some great content.
Greetings from Thailand. Workshops for beginners sounds perfect. For me not so much. Although, when I travel to Southern Thailand’s National parks I hire a local guide: 2,500 baht/$72.39 for a ten hour day using his truck. Of course, I could have spent three weeks humping through the jungle and maybe locate some of the species or maybe not. I was totally blown away with my first experience using a guide here. The cool species of birds was truly incredible. Great video too.
@@lisahillier6590 Kaeng Krachan National park is my favorite for birds. The park is in a rural area with only a few places to stay in the immediate area. I got the recommendation for the guides through Baan Maka Nature Lodge, and Kum Nangpaya. I have only used guides here. Google is your friend. Have fun!
Great information on aspects to look for in one selection of a Guide/Workshop and I am looking forward to part two. I believe one is looking for the advice or skill set of a workshop leader to share with the client to allow him to get that “Special Photo” of a given species or purpose of the trip to take home with them. The leader should be a good communicator on the topic or photo skills for the client is paying for the service or knowledge. If the workshop has goals or values clearly stated on what is provided then the client should know a head of time the outline of the trip. If mixing different levels in photography then the client should know and understand the time will be divided to help the newer photographer get the shot. Some groups can get overwhelmed by some clients directing the group and the Workshop leader should do what is best for the group or pull the photographer to side and address any issues. If the client is the “Know it All “ type that is hard on a group for sure and the Leader has the right to remove the person if needed. Personally, I am open to a blind and limited calling to get the bird or wildlife into the area. Once in the area their behavior action would be natural. Great videos on photography topics that we all can appreciate or have questions on!
I've done 5 trips in the Canadian pacific NW with a photographer who has VERY strongly stated ethics on his approach to wildlife photography - ANYTHING that alters the behaviour of the animal is an absolute no, and we have left animals when there might indeed have been a photo op, but they showed signs of being aware/uncomfortable. Also in Scotland photographing otters, the guide/photographer I have used on several occasions has actually thrown someone off his workshop for not obeying the requirements of ethical behaviour, that the animal should be completely unaware of our presence. To me, this is a MUST. I use workshops in Canadian because I'm UK based and frankly don't know areas well enough to go it alone from the outset, but I always extend my stay by a week or 10 days and do more work on my own after the workshop.
I think anyone who is interested in a work shop should watch this amazing video! From my two experiences, both workshop host used owl noises to startle/ bring out the songbirds. That seems to be a common practice in central america and i Definitely was not expecting that. And of course these people charge and arm and a leg on these workshops.
I own a decent sized property in Tucson AZ. I have my yard set up for wildlife photography. I once invited a popular bird photographer to shoot here. He insisted on baiting my Owls with live mice to get them in flight. I wasn’t gonna allow it to happen on my watch. Now I know how he got so many good Owls in flight.
Scott, GREAT TOPIC, and a subject near and dear to my head and heart. For the last 20+ years, I politely joked about dance workshops. As an advanced dancer, I would always attend beginner workshops put on by people I admired. My philosophy was "Beginner Workshops are for Advanced Dancers". The reason was simple. Advanced dancers know the importance of fundamentals. Everything builds off of that. Beginners always wanted the newest coolest pattern. In a beginner workshop, the true beginners were hyper focused on every piece of footwork, the lead, and the pattern. Advanced dancers listened for the golden nuggets the pro communicated on why and how they do what they do. The actual foot work and patterns were easy to watch and repeat. I didn't get to the level I am by going to workshops. I got there by taking private lessons with World Champions. So, how does this apply to photography workshops (which I have not taken yet). It's a bit different for the reasons you mention. By no means am I down on group workshops. My point simply is, that the more experience you come with, the more you will get out of it (with the right instructor). You can question the likes of Paul Nicklen, Cristina Mittermeier, John Marriott, Brian Skerry, Rathika Ramasamy, Ami Vitale and others about the method to their madness. You'll hear the nugget of gold they might inadvertently say as an aside that you know is hugely significant. Beginners often try and copy what they see a professional do (without having the skill needed to go with it). More advanced learners don't copy, but apply the knowledge they acquire to fit their style. Like dance, I would think, the more experienced photographer, will attend a workshop with a different set of eyes and ears, and a different set of expectations. As you mentioned, to fully take advantage of this opportunity, you have to be ENGAGED. Last point: Mutual Respect - I have a long story I could tell here about a person I knew taking a lesson with a famous Broadway Choreographer (I was an observer to this and knew both people). The Pro explained why he did, what he did, and the way he did it. Rather than ask polite questions to get more understanding, the student then said "Well, this is how I do it!". The Pro said to the student, "The last time I looked, you came here to learn how I do things. When I want a lesson from you, I'll tell you". The student then stormed out of the room and left the building. Mutual respect is important. It's fine to ask questions (and I peppered the same Pro with lots of them). He realized that I was attempting to understand what advantages "doing it his way" provided over other people. So he politely explained and I learned a lot and gained a very important friend. Give people the respect they deserve, that's all most people ask. OMG: You brought up another huge point at the end (REALLY GOOD VIDEO BY YOU, SCOTT). WORKSHOPS: From the standpoint of the image you capture: Just like in dance, everyone who goes home from a workshop with a new set of choreography does it (ad nauseum) - and it is no longer "unique". I image that photography workshops, like some of the ones you describe, provide the opportunity to capture images of species and birds isolated in the environment with great backgrounds, to all that attend. While this may be a fun experience in itself, everyone there captures nearly the same image (as you alluded to). There is nothing portfolio worthy, because your image isn't unique. I shouldn't, but will, put in my editorial two cents. If this is all you wanted out of the trip (i.e. clean shots of a species you didn't have), mission accomplished. For the rest of us, however, not much was learned from this - because we didn't put in the work. This is a broad generalization, I know, but my point is that when you travel to a unique location, get up in the morning, sit out on a cold blustery day, and see an opportunity to capture something unique, a lot goes into that - and a lot of learning had to happen for the shoot to be a success. Thank you for the great video and subject matter, Scott. TWO THUMBS WAY UP!
I did a few workshops in the 90s and they were with one provider. He is still doing them adn one day i will take another. I also attend several conferences and conventions. I talk to others and get references from other attendees.
Great subject matter. And your discussions are spot on. I would say also appropriate for other workshop and travel adventures such as birding trips. I done a few photo workshops but more birding trips. Best to keep an open mind while on a trip or workshop otherwise you may not have feel the effort was worth the cost. I've been in a situation where 'groupies' will take over too. In one case it worked out in that the trip got overbooked and a 3rd driver became available and a couple of us had that older more experienced drive got us more value than the other local guide and tour leaders provided us. On an other session the leader got commandeered by a couple of groupies. One question I would ask about is policy on unruly behavior of paying clients just so everyone understands what to expect. Looking forward to the next video.
Groupies are the #1 reason why I book workshops carefully. I have yet to go on a group workshop that has not been attended by at least one groupie, who ultimately dominated our exposure to the subject matter and guide/instructor. In some cases, these individuals may be booking up to six workshops a year with the guide or agency and are primarily there for the wildlife experience and less for learning photography. This will be easy for them to do, as they will receive information about the workshop in advance of the booking going public. Additionally, it is not uncommon for the the guides to offer spaces that may go vacant at a discount to groupies, thus making it more difficult for the new customer to get value for money.
Great topic. One of the problems I am seeing on the increase is some people new to photography starting their own workshops. They get some positive feedback on social media, probably have sold a few images, and get the idea they can teach so they host a workshop. I have met a couple like this and got to know a bit about them, looked at some of their photos and wonder what they teach and who attends. They seem to be nice people but not ready for leading workshops. People definitely need to do some checking before they lay down the cash.
It depends. I like using guides in areas where I am unfamiliar, but they are usually focussed on species and not on photography. So that is where interests may differ and might be tricky.
Scott, I really enjoyed this video and the content provided some great value to me. My daughter is getting married this Fall in Mendoza, Argentina. I will be there for about 10 days to meet our in-laws but I hope to do some birding during that time too.
This topic came up when a friend and I were discussing if it's alright to take an absolute beginner's course to one of the central London parks that's full of particularly friendly parakeet's who will land on you and eat out your hand happily. My stance was that it's probably for the best as an absolute beginner probably doesn't have the skill to deal with more wild subjects yet and, when you're starting out, missing every shot is frustrating. If you take 'em to a park that's bursting with friendly creatures you get to ask whoever is leading how to set up, and practice the fundamental bits in an environment where you're guaranteed to walk away with one good shot. Yeah, they're not really wild but a bird is a bird, they still move quick and will help you get to grips with it. In the end we came to the conclusion that the most important thing about these photography experiences is finding something that falls within your wants and needs. Going back to our little chat, it'd be just as terrible to take a bunch of experienced photographers searching for locations to the park as it would be to take a bunch of absolute beginners on a 2 day trek and say "here's a deer, good luck mate"
In my recent workshop experiences I have met several photographers who show up and do not know how to use their equipment. In both cases last year, the guide was not helping much with teaching them how to use their equipment. Was distracting because I kept having to stop what I was doing to help those less experienced students.
An interesting topic!These are some thoughts on what I like and would prefer in workshops/tours. For me, a combination of both experiences would be preferred. I have participated in several photography workshops and several birding tours over the years. The controlled blind/feeder station opportunities along with the "hunting" for species and capturing images in wild habitat settings also. The accommodations and food need to be good, not necessarily 5 star, but good. I like to have details taken care of for me, tipping, park fees, transportation, etc. For foreign travels, the language problem, starting and ending at the airport is something that is very important to me, as I do not speak any other language other than English. These things really make the experience worth the cost!
Hi Scott Have been on workshops with 3 world respected photographers. 2 were disappointing. They got you to the species but no real learnings. With the 2 trips they did not review images, spent their time photographing and provided little interest in personal needs. Personally didn’t need too much guidance on shooting/gear but would have been good to have guidance on fieldcraft and advice on getting the best shot with a particular subject. Difficult to know what you will get unless to go on a workshop. On one workshop Yellowstone in winter I extended the trip after the workshop with a solo trip to the Tetons. This proved to be more satisfying and I achieved interesting images, getting closer to several species. It was also cheaper! Just need to plan ahead of the visit (reading and contact with local photographers)
Thanks Scott for the video. I like your channel because of these topics and discussions. It's different from other channels where they just do lens reviews or teach camera settings. I have been running a birdwatching meetup group for the last couple months. I get anxious sometimes because I have never hosted any events before and I don't know what to do, haha. But I've met some good people through the meetup so far. Have you ever joined any casual birding groups like that, I mean not the expensive workshops.. I would like to hear about your experience. Thanks.
Im much more likely to do that with my obsession with native plants. I think because I earn some side money with photography, it becomes a little harder to just meet up. With plants that different. I think its largely a mental thing. With birds I really like to explore!
Really cool subject to discuss here Scott. It may be totally different here in the UK but I would reiterate that clients should get references, there are many photographers out there who use "artistic licence" to embellish and exaggerate their own experience! In my opinion the welfare of the subject always comes first, some guides practice this ethos, doesn't mean they all do, especially when they think no one may be watching! I would say everyone should try and understand their camera and equipment before paying to take part in a guided trip. Learning how the camera works etc is easily done via the internet and RUclips etc, why pay good money to learn things you can teach yourself!
I know some that have no patience for teaching themselves and there are those that pay good money just to learn settings. But like you I enjoy teaching myself.
The ethics discussion is both interesting and amusing. I have heard of a VERY well known tour leader throwing pebbles at an Eider in Barrow, Alaska, to get it to swim to a more favorable spot. It sounds bad, but in reality he wasn't actually hitting the Eider with the tossed pebbles, and making something swim for 10 yards isn't going to "use up valuable energy" or any nonsense like that. Birds and mammals are a lot tougher and more adaptable than many people seem to think. It's not like their life is walking a tightrope between life and death every moment of every day. They have lots of reserves built up, even right after a 4,000 mile migration flight. And they have a LOT of disposable leisure time every day. This is true of 99% of all the critters out there.
I so want to dig into this a little. So many thoughts. I agree on some points regarding the resiliency of animals in general, and there is this idea to me that birds somehow attain a different status of sensitivity. People flip rocks and handle snakes all the time with little said, but pish a bird in season, at people with put out a call to arms. Ethics in general is sticky, I continue to live by my creedo, dont be an asshole.
@@WildlifeInspired I have found that the use of playback calls for birds is ultra-polarizing. Many of the people who are against it have this mindset like "it's never okay to play a bird call, never ever ever okay ..... no matter what the situation is or what time of year or what species, the use of playbacks is always deplorable shameful behavior ". I just can't understand how people can be so absolute and unyielding in their view on anything. Hence, I just go to places that other people don't go to, and that way I am free to go about bird photography the way I want to do it and not worry about the ill-informed haters.
Great stuff brother! I have found that the "birders" (not meant to be offensive) can be real sticklers for the "ethics" they think are absolute. I shoot mostly birds (they are most abundant), but I am not a "birder" (I'ma wildlife photog) and tho I run across so many who think I am and while some of those (more so than not that I've encountered) "birders" are very harsh with their idea of what is considered ethically correct they are also the same ones who will walk up on or yell across the field/woods @ me while I am off the beaten path and scare off anything I may be shootin with no concern how long I've been sittin there just so they can try and get a shot or put it in their lil book lol. I was raised a hunter/fisher all my life (raised in the woods and taught many valuable lessons about wildlife/nature from some great men in my family and while I respect and honor all God's creations and always do my best to leave no trace and or disturb any nesting/breeding I get criticized by quite a few for the way I conduct my shoots. It's just the world we live in now days. I have also found that so many who critic usin a call will also be the first ones to jump on a plane and go do those safaris you talk about where they chase animals around in a jeep lol. Anyway just my thoughts on it which I'm sure may ruffle some britches, but again it is the world we live in. Hey also I pulled the trigger on the Benro Monopod MSD46C. Haven't shot with it yet as I just got it yesterday but wanted to let you know that the top sliding piece is definitely a fix by tightenin the 2 screws. Unfortunately my budget limited me on the head I purchased so I went with a leofoto VH-10S for now (doesn't feel like I'm gonna like it, but we'll see) Of course I shoot mostly handheld anyway as an action shooter. I'm also one of those shooters that is handicapped/limited (for now) as I got ran over on my motorcycle 2015 (twice in 8 months) and almost lost my leg/life and then heart surgery 2020 after several episodes where I died for a cpl minutes. I used to hump 10-22 miles a day when I shot up until 2015. Bein a gimp now for the past 8 years has been a tough adjustment, but I get out and do it the best I can tho I fall about once a week (tuck camera in and protect it with my life lol) I just hope if someone is watchin they get a pic or at least a good laugh out of it (unless of course I hurt myself then just come help and we'll laugh later). :) Thanks a bunch brother for the info I have been hesitant to do any workshops tho I have been asked for years to do one this just may convince me to try one out. Let me know if you ever get around Fort Worth/ Dallas I'll show you around. #BeBlessed #NoBadDays
Get of the motorcycles for God's sake! My sons ride and it makes me crazy. I have a new leofoto review coming up. not sure it will meet your needs. The discount would put it around $300. Give me about 10 days and it will be out!
@@WildlifeInspired Rode 30 years and never had a problem. These phones and the entitled blankety blanks that think they are the only ones on the road are the reason I'm ready to go to the woods and stay lol. Yep hung up the scooter after that. Never want to see that look my son had on his face again when he walked into the hospital not knowin the extent of my injuries. Worlds goin to hell in a hand basket and thankfully I got to know Jesus before it the bottom drops out of it. :) I'm gonna try this leofoto 2 way out for a cpl weeks, but will most likely end up goin to the manfrotto (I'm just a lil leary with that "side mount" thing. 12 lbs hangin scares me hahahaha.
I’ve wanted to do some wildlife workshops but trying to find a good one seems quite difficult. I’m advanced enough that I don’t want to spend a lot of time talking about camera settings and reviewing the instructor’s pics. But I would like ideas and being responsive to questions. I have no problem with blinds and limited baiting (very limited) but can understand those who do. But a lot of the baiting going on seems like a poor choice to me. And things that interfere with the wildlife’s life or situation.
The biggest reason for me not to do a workshop is having multiple people next to you taking the same photo. I understand not every workshop will result in this but for sure workshops in hides or at nest sites will result in this. My photography isn't very unique or creative but I still want all my photos to be 1 off and unique to me.
I frequently go out with 1-3 friends to shoot. We might get the same shot if the animal is incredibly stationary, but it's usually crazy how vastly different our photos are. When we choose to shoot, which lens we brought, our settings, our position never match up. Many of those friends are people I originally met on workships. And I learn so much from them, especially when I see their photos from the same shoot later.
@@lisahillier6590 I agree, I know a group of 3 that regularly shoot together and their images are surprisingly different despite the bird being on the same perch, even post processing can make a huge difference depending on the crop, brightness and color grading. Another example I was shooting side by size with someone and I got a range of shots and I was shocked to find he didn't get any, the bird was visible my point but he couldn't see it 3 feet next to me. Like I said it does depend on the type of tour guide but in general the images can look similar and you just have less control.
Respected sir This is Imran 37 years old also working in pharmaceutical company.I m using nikon d3200 with nikon 70-300mm vr . I love birds photography but its not perfect for wildlife photography and birds also.plz suggest me budget friendly camera nd lens.also i want know my age 37 its right time or i m too late .plz suggest also I m intrestd full time wildlife photography nd dedicated to wildlife conservation programme. Also suggest me any courses. Thanks sir
in general workshops are well worth the time/expense because of the knowledge and experience the organizers provide. four and five star hotels for starting points to photograph bears and other wildlife are wasted on me. ethical photography is subjective. i was appreciative of baiting Steller's Sea Eagles in Japan but irritated by our driver closely following a hunting cheetah in Africa.
I always try to say ethics is not just subjective but also very gray. Even "baiting" can be relatively harmless and also very disruptive and harmful to the subjects. It's one labelling often doesn't work.
@5:00 I can understand the idea that any water facilities, feeders and artifical perch renders this experience 'not wildlife', although I cannot relate to that. But no blind itself? No namo? That goes a bit too far...
Bring a tent? Oh no, we can't have that. That is manipulating the environment. Sleeping under the stars with no comfort gear is much better. Larry from Texas
sounds like some folks are just too up their own asses and far too egotistical for their own good if what you say is true lol taking a photo is purely a man made thing and is NOT natural at all, so already all of those picky folks you are talking about have no grounds to stand on if they do photography. You dont get further from reality than taking a snapshot in time and keeping a piece of the past digitally or on print.
Scott I really appreciate your thoughtful approach to this topic. As a workshop instructor I really appreciated your perspectives on asking the client to know what they want from the workshop and to think through if they are looking more for a guide or a teacher or both. The more we all can be clear about expectations the better experience for everyone!
Heading to Alaska soon for a workshop with Lisa Langell! She is a fantastic workshop leader and excellent teacher as well
Agree!
Thanks Scott! Wow what a surprise to be mentioned here! We thank you so much for mentioning our company in Tanzania! You know you and Tricia are welcome to come anytime!!
Only because your reveiws are so stellar!
I first did workshops to help with technical aspects but now looking for tour about an area, various perspectives of composition, and interaction with the leaders and other participants. I just discovered you and love your approach.
Thanks, I also like to educate and talk a little about environment (fun facts). When I tour something, I like a leader that shares some stories and interesting tidbits!
HaHa, who knew I was so curious about workshops? I found this video very useful and never gave workshops a second thought before. Thanks for some great content.
Glad it was helpful!
Greetings from Thailand. Workshops for beginners sounds perfect. For me not so much. Although, when I travel to Southern Thailand’s National parks I hire a local guide: 2,500 baht/$72.39 for a ten hour day using his truck. Of course, I could have spent three weeks humping through the jungle and maybe locate some of the species or maybe not. I was totally blown away with my first experience using a guide here. The cool species of birds was truly incredible. Great video too.
a knowledgable guide can see in a day what might take you a couple weeks!
How do you find the best guides in Thailand? I would love to know for the future.
@@lisahillier6590 Kaeng Krachan National park is my favorite for birds. The park is in a rural area with only a few places to stay in the immediate area. I got the recommendation for the guides through Baan Maka Nature Lodge, and Kum Nangpaya. I have only used guides here. Google is your friend. Have fun!
Great information on aspects to look for in one selection of a Guide/Workshop and I am looking forward to part two. I believe one is looking for the advice or skill set of a workshop leader to share with the client to allow him to get that “Special Photo” of a given species or purpose of the trip to take home with them. The leader should be a good communicator on the topic or photo skills for the client is paying for the service or knowledge. If the workshop has goals or values clearly stated on what is provided then the client should know a head of time the outline of the trip. If mixing different levels in photography then the client should know and understand the time will be divided to help the newer photographer get the shot. Some groups can get overwhelmed by some clients directing the group and the Workshop leader should do what is best for the group or pull the photographer to side and address any issues. If the client is the “Know it All “ type that is hard on a group for sure and the Leader has the right to remove the person if needed. Personally, I am open to a blind and limited calling to get the bird or wildlife into the area. Once in the area their behavior action would be natural. Great videos on photography topics that we all can appreciate or have questions on!
Thanks!
Such a great topic! You answered lots of my questions regarding workshops. I’ve never done one but have been curious. Love your transparency. Cheers
If you do...... Don't forget one of your original faves !
I've done 5 trips in the Canadian pacific NW with a photographer who has VERY strongly stated ethics on his approach to wildlife photography - ANYTHING that alters the behaviour of the animal is an absolute no, and we have left animals when there might indeed have been a photo op, but they showed signs of being aware/uncomfortable. Also in Scotland photographing otters, the guide/photographer I have used on several occasions has actually thrown someone off his workshop for not obeying the requirements of ethical behaviour, that the animal should be completely unaware of our presence. To me, this is a MUST.
I use workshops in Canadian because I'm UK based and frankly don't know areas well enough to go it alone from the outset, but I always extend my stay by a week or 10 days and do more work on my own after the workshop.
These workshops sound like a dream to me!
I wonder if it's someone I know and feel free to mention a name as a recommendation. I almost referenced Jess Findlay from that area.
I think anyone who is interested in a work shop should watch this amazing video!
From my two experiences, both workshop host used owl noises to startle/ bring out the songbirds. That seems to be a common practice in central america and i Definitely was not expecting that.
And of course these people charge and arm and a leg on these workshops.
interesting!
I own a decent sized property in Tucson AZ. I have my yard set up for wildlife photography. I once invited a popular bird photographer to shoot here. He insisted on baiting my Owls with live mice to get them in flight. I wasn’t gonna allow it to happen on my watch. Now I know how he got so many good Owls in flight.
Good for you!
Scott, GREAT TOPIC, and a subject near and dear to my head and heart. For the last 20+ years, I politely joked about dance workshops. As an advanced dancer, I would always attend beginner workshops put on by people I admired. My philosophy was "Beginner Workshops are for Advanced Dancers". The reason was simple. Advanced dancers know the importance of fundamentals. Everything builds off of that. Beginners always wanted the newest coolest pattern. In a beginner workshop, the true beginners were hyper focused on every piece of footwork, the lead, and the pattern. Advanced dancers listened for the golden nuggets the pro communicated on why and how they do what they do. The actual foot work and patterns were easy to watch and repeat. I didn't get to the level I am by going to workshops. I got there by taking private lessons with World Champions. So, how does this apply to photography workshops (which I have not taken yet). It's a bit different for the reasons you mention. By no means am I down on group workshops. My point simply is, that the more experience you come with, the more you will get out of it (with the right instructor). You can question the likes of Paul Nicklen, Cristina Mittermeier, John Marriott, Brian Skerry, Rathika Ramasamy, Ami Vitale and others about the method to their madness. You'll hear the nugget of gold they might inadvertently say as an aside that you know is hugely significant. Beginners often try and copy what they see a professional do (without having the skill needed to go with it). More advanced learners don't copy, but apply the knowledge they acquire to fit their style. Like dance, I would think, the more experienced photographer, will attend a workshop with a different set of eyes and ears, and a different set of expectations. As you mentioned, to fully take advantage of this opportunity, you have to be ENGAGED. Last point: Mutual Respect - I have a long story I could tell here about a person I knew taking a lesson with a famous Broadway Choreographer (I was an observer to this and knew both people). The Pro explained why he did, what he did, and the way he did it. Rather than ask polite questions to get more understanding, the student then said "Well, this is how I do it!". The Pro said to the student, "The last time I looked, you came here to learn how I do things. When I want a lesson from you, I'll tell you". The student then stormed out of the room and left the building. Mutual respect is important. It's fine to ask questions (and I peppered the same Pro with lots of them). He realized that I was attempting to understand what advantages "doing it his way" provided over other people. So he politely explained and I learned a lot and gained a very important friend. Give people the respect they deserve, that's all most people ask. OMG: You brought up another huge point at the end (REALLY GOOD VIDEO BY YOU, SCOTT). WORKSHOPS: From the standpoint of the image you capture: Just like in dance, everyone who goes home from a workshop with a new set of choreography does it (ad nauseum) - and it is no longer "unique". I image that photography workshops, like some of the ones you describe, provide the opportunity to capture images of species and birds isolated in the environment with great backgrounds, to all that attend. While this may be a fun experience in itself, everyone there captures nearly the same image (as you alluded to). There is nothing portfolio worthy, because your image isn't unique. I shouldn't, but will, put in my editorial two cents. If this is all you wanted out of the trip (i.e. clean shots of a species you didn't have), mission accomplished. For the rest of us, however, not much was learned from this - because we didn't put in the work. This is a broad generalization, I know, but my point is that when you travel to a unique location, get up in the morning, sit out on a cold blustery day, and see an opportunity to capture something unique, a lot goes into that - and a lot of learning had to happen for the shoot to be a success. Thank you for the great video and subject matter, Scott. TWO THUMBS WAY UP!
Lots to read! But I read it all and some interesting perspective and stories, thanks for watching!
@@WildlifeInspired Yeah, sort of a hot button topic in the past ;-) Thanks again for the video. Really nice job covering the angles.
I always appreciate your thoughts and opinions. You provide such great information and advice and I hope you know it is greatly appreciated.
I appreciate that!
I did a few workshops in the 90s and they were with one provider. He is still doing them adn one day i will take another. I also attend several conferences and conventions. I talk to others and get references from other attendees.
This is a great episode. Loved it, thank you so much ❤
Glad you enjoyed it!
It would be good for targeting species that are harder to find.
Great subject matter. And your discussions are spot on. I would say also appropriate for other workshop and travel adventures such as birding trips. I done a few photo workshops but more birding trips. Best to keep an open mind while on a trip or workshop otherwise you may not have feel the effort was worth the cost. I've been in a situation where 'groupies' will take over too. In one case it worked out in that the trip got overbooked and a 3rd driver became available and a couple of us had that older more experienced drive got us more value than the other local guide and tour leaders provided us. On an other session the leader got commandeered by a couple of groupies. One question I would ask about is policy on unruly behavior of paying clients just so everyone understands what to expect. Looking forward to the next video.
Interesting. Group dynamics will always be subject to many more variable. One on One is great but can get very expensive!
Groupies are the #1 reason why I book workshops carefully. I have yet to go on a group workshop that has not been attended by at least one groupie, who ultimately dominated our exposure to the subject matter and guide/instructor. In some cases, these individuals may be booking up to six workshops a year with the guide or agency and are primarily there for the wildlife experience and less for learning photography. This will be easy for them to do, as they will receive information about the workshop in advance of the booking going public. Additionally, it is not uncommon for the the guides to offer spaces that may go vacant at a discount to groupies, thus making it more difficult for the new customer to get value for money.
Great topic. One of the problems I am seeing on the increase is some people new to photography starting their own workshops. They get some positive feedback on social media, probably have sold a few images, and get the idea they can teach so they host a workshop. I have met a couple like this and got to know a bit about them, looked at some of their photos and wonder what they teach and who attends. They seem to be nice people but not ready for leading workshops. People definitely need to do some checking before they lay down the cash.
I address this in part 2!
It depends. I like using guides in areas where I am unfamiliar, but they are usually focussed on species and not on photography. So that is where interests may differ and might be tricky.
Thanks for sharing!
Scott, I really enjoyed this video and the content provided some great value to me. My daughter is getting married this Fall in Mendoza, Argentina. I will be there for about 10 days to meet our in-laws but I hope to do some birding during that time too.
Fantastic!
This topic came up when a friend and I were discussing if it's alright to take an absolute beginner's course to one of the central London parks that's full of particularly friendly parakeet's who will land on you and eat out your hand happily. My stance was that it's probably for the best as an absolute beginner probably doesn't have the skill to deal with more wild subjects yet and, when you're starting out, missing every shot is frustrating. If you take 'em to a park that's bursting with friendly creatures you get to ask whoever is leading how to set up, and practice the fundamental bits in an environment where you're guaranteed to walk away with one good shot. Yeah, they're not really wild but a bird is a bird, they still move quick and will help you get to grips with it.
In the end we came to the conclusion that the most important thing about these photography experiences is finding something that falls within your wants and needs. Going back to our little chat, it'd be just as terrible to take a bunch of experienced photographers searching for locations to the park as it would be to take a bunch of absolute beginners on a 2 day trek and say "here's a deer, good luck mate"
good point regarding skill level and need.
In my recent workshop experiences I have met several photographers who show up and do not know how to use their equipment. In both cases last year, the guide was not helping much with teaching them how to use their equipment. Was distracting because I kept having to stop what I was doing to help those less experienced students.
happens!
An interesting topic!These are some thoughts on what I like and would prefer in workshops/tours. For me, a combination of both experiences would be preferred. I have participated in several photography workshops and several birding tours over the years. The controlled blind/feeder station opportunities along with the "hunting" for species and capturing images in wild habitat settings also. The accommodations and food need to be good, not necessarily 5 star, but good. I like to have details taken care of for me, tipping, park fees, transportation, etc. For foreign travels, the language problem, starting and ending at the airport is something that is very important to me, as I do not speak any other language other than English. These things really make the experience worth the cost!
Hi Scott
Have been on workshops with 3 world respected photographers. 2 were disappointing. They got you to the species but no real learnings. With the 2 trips they did not review images, spent their time photographing and provided little interest in personal needs. Personally didn’t need too much guidance on shooting/gear but would have been good to have guidance on fieldcraft and advice on getting the best shot with a particular subject. Difficult to know what you will get unless to go on a workshop. On one workshop Yellowstone in winter I extended the trip after the workshop with a solo trip to the Tetons. This proved to be more satisfying and I achieved interesting images, getting closer to several species. It was also cheaper! Just need to plan ahead of the visit (reading and contact with local photographers)
Glad you got some good experience. I am sure you have spread the word and hopefully can support those that helped you out.
Thanks Scott for the video. I like your channel because of these topics and discussions. It's different from other channels where they just do lens reviews or teach camera settings.
I have been running a birdwatching meetup group for the last couple months. I get anxious sometimes because I have never hosted any events before and I don't know what to do, haha. But I've met some good people through the meetup so far.
Have you ever joined any casual birding groups like that, I mean not the expensive workshops.. I would like to hear about your experience. Thanks.
Im much more likely to do that with my obsession with native plants. I think because I earn some side money with photography, it becomes a little harder to just meet up. With plants that different. I think its largely a mental thing. With birds I really like to explore!
Really cool subject to discuss here Scott. It may be totally different here in the UK but I would reiterate that clients should get references, there are many photographers out there who use "artistic licence" to embellish and exaggerate their own experience! In my opinion the welfare of the subject always comes first, some guides practice this ethos, doesn't mean they all do, especially when they think no one may be watching! I would say everyone should try and understand their camera and equipment before paying to take part in a guided trip. Learning how the camera works etc is easily done via the internet and RUclips etc, why pay good money to learn things you can teach yourself!
I know some that have no patience for teaching themselves and there are those that pay good money just to learn settings. But like you I enjoy teaching myself.
The ethics discussion is both interesting and amusing. I have heard of a VERY well known tour leader throwing pebbles at an Eider in Barrow, Alaska, to get it to swim to a more favorable spot. It sounds bad, but in reality he wasn't actually hitting the Eider with the tossed pebbles, and making something swim for 10 yards isn't going to "use up valuable energy" or any nonsense like that. Birds and mammals are a lot tougher and more adaptable than many people seem to think. It's not like their life is walking a tightrope between life and death every moment of every day. They have lots of reserves built up, even right after a 4,000 mile migration flight. And they have a LOT of disposable leisure time every day. This is true of 99% of all the critters out there.
I so want to dig into this a little. So many thoughts. I agree on some points regarding the resiliency of animals in general, and there is this idea to me that birds somehow attain a different status of sensitivity. People flip rocks and handle snakes all the time with little said, but pish a bird in season, at people with put out a call to arms. Ethics in general is sticky, I continue to live by my creedo, dont be an asshole.
@@WildlifeInspired I have found that the use of playback calls for birds is ultra-polarizing. Many of the people who are against it have this mindset like "it's never okay to play a bird call, never ever ever okay ..... no matter what the situation is or what time of year or what species, the use of playbacks is always deplorable shameful behavior ". I just can't understand how people can be so absolute and unyielding in their view on anything. Hence, I just go to places that other people don't go to, and that way I am free to go about bird photography the way I want to do it and not worry about the ill-informed haters.
Great stuff brother! I have found that the "birders" (not meant to be offensive) can be real sticklers for the "ethics" they think are absolute. I shoot mostly birds (they are most abundant), but I am not a "birder" (I'ma wildlife photog) and tho I run across so many who think I am and while some of those (more so than not that I've encountered) "birders" are very harsh with their idea of what is considered ethically correct they are also the same ones who will walk up on or yell across the field/woods @ me while I am off the beaten path and scare off anything I may be shootin with no concern how long I've been sittin there just so they can try and get a shot or put it in their lil book lol. I was raised a hunter/fisher all my life (raised in the woods and taught many valuable lessons about wildlife/nature from some great men in my family and while I respect and honor all God's creations and always do my best to leave no trace and or disturb any nesting/breeding I get criticized by quite a few for the way I conduct my shoots. It's just the world we live in now days. I have also found that so many who critic usin a call will also be the first ones to jump on a plane and go do those safaris you talk about where they chase animals around in a jeep lol. Anyway just my thoughts on it which I'm sure may ruffle some britches, but again it is the world we live in. Hey also I pulled the trigger on the Benro Monopod MSD46C. Haven't shot with it yet as I just got it yesterday but wanted to let you know that the top sliding piece is definitely a fix by tightenin the 2 screws. Unfortunately my budget limited me on the head I purchased so I went with a leofoto VH-10S for now (doesn't feel like I'm gonna like it, but we'll see) Of course I shoot mostly handheld anyway as an action shooter. I'm also one of those shooters that is handicapped/limited (for now) as I got ran over on my motorcycle 2015 (twice in 8 months) and almost lost my leg/life and then heart surgery 2020 after several episodes where I died for a cpl minutes. I used to hump 10-22 miles a day when I shot up until 2015. Bein a gimp now for the past 8 years has been a tough adjustment, but I get out and do it the best I can tho I fall about once a week (tuck camera in and protect it with my life lol) I just hope if someone is watchin they get a pic or at least a good laugh out of it (unless of course I hurt myself then just come help and we'll laugh later). :) Thanks a bunch brother for the info I have been hesitant to do any workshops tho I have been asked for years to do one this just may convince me to try one out. Let me know if you ever get around Fort Worth/ Dallas I'll show you around. #BeBlessed #NoBadDays
Get of the motorcycles for God's sake! My sons ride and it makes me crazy. I have a new leofoto review coming up. not sure it will meet your needs. The discount would put it around $300. Give me about 10 days and it will be out!
@@WildlifeInspired Rode 30 years and never had a problem. These phones and the entitled blankety blanks that think they are the only ones on the road are the reason I'm ready to go to the woods and stay lol. Yep hung up the scooter after that. Never want to see that look my son had on his face again when he walked into the hospital not knowin the extent of my injuries. Worlds goin to hell in a hand basket and thankfully I got to know Jesus before it the bottom drops out of it. :) I'm gonna try this leofoto 2 way out for a cpl weeks, but will most likely end up goin to the manfrotto (I'm just a lil leary with that "side mount" thing. 12 lbs hangin scares me hahahaha.
I’ve wanted to do some wildlife workshops but trying to find a good one seems quite difficult. I’m advanced enough that I don’t want to spend a lot of time talking about camera settings and reviewing the instructor’s pics. But I would like ideas and being responsive to questions. I have no problem with blinds and limited baiting (very limited) but can understand those who do. But a lot of the baiting going on seems like a poor choice to me. And things that interfere with the wildlife’s life or situation.
Good luck, could be an interesting experience to just try
The biggest reason for me not to do a workshop is having multiple people next to you taking the same photo. I understand not every workshop will result in this but for sure workshops in hides or at nest sites will result in this.
My photography isn't very unique or creative but I still want all my photos to be 1 off and unique to me.
Agree.. Even when shooting with someone, I often move to a different area to at least get a different perspective.
I frequently go out with 1-3 friends to shoot. We might get the same shot if the animal is incredibly stationary, but it's usually crazy how vastly different our photos are. When we choose to shoot, which lens we brought, our settings, our position never match up.
Many of those friends are people I originally met on workships. And I learn so much from them, especially when I see their photos from the same shoot later.
@@lisahillier6590 I agree, I know a group of 3 that regularly shoot together and their images are surprisingly different despite the bird being on the same perch, even post processing can make a huge difference depending on the crop, brightness and color grading.
Another example I was shooting side by size with someone and I got a range of shots and I was shocked to find he didn't get any, the bird was visible my point but he couldn't see it 3 feet next to me.
Like I said it does depend on the type of tour guide but in general the images can look similar and you just have less control.
Respected sir
This is Imran 37 years old also working in pharmaceutical company.I m using nikon d3200 with nikon 70-300mm vr . I love birds photography but its not perfect for wildlife photography and birds also.plz suggest me budget friendly camera nd lens.also i want know my age 37 its right time or i m too late .plz suggest also I m intrestd full time wildlife photography nd dedicated to wildlife conservation programme. Also suggest me any courses.
Thanks sir
I started at age 42.... never too old to enjoy nature at any level.
in general workshops are well worth the time/expense because of the knowledge and experience the organizers provide. four and five star hotels for starting points to photograph bears and other wildlife are wasted on me. ethical photography is subjective. i was appreciative of baiting Steller's Sea Eagles in Japan but irritated by our driver closely following a hunting cheetah in Africa.
I always try to say ethics is not just subjective but also very gray. Even "baiting" can be relatively harmless and also very disruptive and harmful to the subjects. It's one labelling often doesn't work.
@5:00 I can understand the idea that any water facilities, feeders and artifical perch renders this experience 'not wildlife', although I cannot relate to that. But no blind itself? No namo? That goes a bit too far...
lets be honest its a hobby
personally? I'm not understanding this comment in context of the video.
Bring a tent? Oh no, we can't have that. That is manipulating the environment. Sleeping under the stars with no comfort gear is much better.
Larry from Texas
sounds like some folks are just too up their own asses and far too egotistical for their own good if what you say is true lol taking a photo is purely a man made thing and is NOT natural at all, so already all of those picky folks you are talking about have no grounds to stand on if they do photography. You dont get further from reality than taking a snapshot in time and keeping a piece of the past digitally or on print.