Did Abraham Actually Kill Isaac? - Bible & Archaeology
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- This week, Dr. Bob Cargill and Jordan Jones discuss Genesis 22! We cover it all, the promise to Abraham, child sacrifice in the Bible, God's command to sacrifice Isaac, and the possibility that the story could have originally ended with Abraham actually killing Isaac.
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The theory I've seen is that were two separate traditions, one with Abraham as the first patriarch, the second with Isaac. At some point the two traditions were merged, and Isaac was retconned into being Abraham's son, perhaps replacing the original, separate character also named Isaac, or maybe replacing Ishmael (thus explaining why Ishmael gets put on a bus), or maybe some nameless son, and the story was amended to not only get rid of the child sacrifice angle but also explain how Isaac could have survived to father Jacob.
Yoreh Tzemah (sp?) has it different. Abraham was a forefather story. Jacob was a different forefather story. Abraham shooed away his first son, Ishmael, and sacrifices 'his' son with Sarah (probably the progeny of Abimelech, who may have slept with Sarah, since he basically accused Abraham of making him (Abimelech) sin. So Sarah and Abraham die childless.
Jacob is placed at a later time once the stories collided, and an Isaac life story was bult out of pieces of Abraham's story and pieces of Jacob's story.
Supposedly the places named in the stories of Abraham and Jacob show one is northern and one is southern forefather, before they were combined.
@@StorytimeJesus
@@TheRisable any questions? :D
Powerful episode!! Explains much of what I've seen Tobias Singer comment on.
Excellent video. I remember King Agamemnon sacrificed his daughter, Iphigenia, on the way to Troy to appease the goddess Artemis. However, there is more than one ending to this sacrifice event. One version, Iphigenia is saved by Artemis, who provides a deer to be sacrificed instead. Or the God Pan, in the shape of a goat.
I think that the Mycenaeans were Canaanites. Hence the sacrifice of the virgins to the Minotaur.
Zeus often turned up as a bull.
@@josephturner7569 For the Canaanites and the ancient Levantine region, El was the supreme god. El was repeatedly referred to as "Bull El" or "the bull god". There is some evidence that it was El who led the Israelites out of Egypt during the Exodus (Isra'El'?). Is there a clue that when Moses was up getting the 10 commandments, the idol made was a gold calf? At some time El was replaced by Yahweh as the god of Israel.
@@igorscot4971 Absolutely. Much is lost in translation. I try to see a running theme. Kind of like a detective looking for links however tenuous. You know, like Dirk Gently, writes propositions on his wall and then tries to connect them. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. I never dismiss anything out of hand.
But, I think that there is a strong Bull motif going on. Could this be connected to the age of Taurus? Or, the Tauried meteor shower that maybe caused the Younger Dryas cataclysm?
The adversary loves putting souls in "Kobyashi Maru" no-win scenarios by giving them a choice of either killing their own or killing their creators. You'd think they'd get that the winning choice is not to kill at all, unless you'd starve otherwise, and then only kill with kindness and appreciation, asking for forgiveness of the victim, knowing you have sinned
Well, Sarah seems to have disappeared from the story at this point as well and doesn't reappear until her death. She's not with Abraham at the time so there are scholars that speculate that she left Abraham because of this. Or the child that was sacrificed was actually Ishmael (as the Muslims claim). But there is one part of the story that everyone overlooks. After Sarah's death, Abraham remarries and has a whole slew of sons who go on to found nations of their own. This wife was called Keturah. The text is not clear if she was his only wife or that there were other wives/concubines, but he did have sons. Even Paul, writing to the Galatians, says nothing at all about Keturah and her sons because that would ruin the narrative he is painting to the Galatians about the son of the slave woman and the son of the free woman.
It does not matter what Muslims think, or if Abraham remarries and have more children. The point is Isaac is there and having children. Ishmael been sacrificed will change the islamic narrative then there is no tracing back to Mohammed if they think he was sacrificied.
@@JeannieSokoThe Islamic version of the story replaces Isaac with Ishmael, including the replacement of Ishmael with a ram. The point is that Abraham’s covenant is fulfilled through Ishmael, not Isaac.
Now I wonder why they stop sacrificing the first born. What changed.
The story of Jephthah is also a theme in fairy tales. Although in those cases the first that comes out is promised to a witch, or something like that. Don’t know an example so quickly, but if I have time I will try to find it. There must be one in the Grimm tales
I'd love to see this story tackled through source criticism. Richard Elliot Friedman, in The Bible with Sources Revealed, makes an argument that the story begins as an E text, then switches to RJE for vv. 11-14. I understand that the documentary hypothesis has lost some ground, but I have no idea how variants like the neo-documemtary hypothesis or the supplementary hypothesis treat this story. Any good scholarship on that?
That exodus verse about giving the first born on the 8th day, wasnt that what circumcision was for?
Possibly a cross over. The Egyptians circumcised when they were adults.
The Hyksos that occupied Lower Egypt were Canaanites.
*God “told” Jephtha to vow*
Judges 11:29-30
_Then *the spirit of Yahweh came on Jephthah* …. And Jephthah made a vow to Yahweh…
Judges 11:29 seems to be the most overlooked verse in the Hebrew Bible among the Bible-educated.
Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Abe says, “Man, you must be puttin’ me on”
God say, “No.” Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin’ you better run”
Well Abe says, “Where do you want this killin’ done?”
God says, “Out on Highway 61”
Bob C and Bob D bringing the receipts.
I've heard this theory before, but without the details. My take on it is that if a name change was required, it would be the deceased son renamed Isaac. The real Isaac would be the second son.
I’m sorry, Bob, but I didn’t think it would be such a big deal.
About 8 years from now, after I will have had perfected my Nth dimensional personal tesseract device, I will have taken it for a test run to see how the time warping technology will have been working. I did stop some grizzled shepherd from knifing his kid, and I told him to stop doing that. I did will have not known that it would be an issue down the line.
PS: sorry for the weird verb tenses; that sort of thing gets all wibbly-wobbly when you muck around with spacetime.
Anyway, right now I’m watching some kid taking on this Shaquille O’Neill sized Mycenaean pirate with a sling. The Mycenaean pirate dude is a bit of a jerk; I figure that if I time it right, I can nail him in the forehead with my WW II Lee Enfield from where I’m hiding.
There’s no way that this is going to impact the time stream, I’m fairly confident of that.
Only begotten son, first born son who you love? It was Ishmael. Hagar was sent away after the fact. Remember how many alterations were made in these scrolls.
Aren't you glad all this was made up?
he didnt sacrafice his daughter
God...hey Abe
Abe....yes my ever loving God
God....show me how much you love me and sacrifice your son
Abe...SAY WHAAAT!!!!!
God...just do it Abe
Abe...okay my ever loving God, for you anything
God....kidding, just playing with you ....
Abe ..I'm done with you God, you're a weirdo sociopath
Does it matter? The expectation is that he was willing to.
Which is why I could never abide by such beliefs.
I would never sacrifice my own child. My moral standards are too high.
How many babies died during Noah’s flood?
And Abraham never once questioned God, though he had no problem negotiating with God over the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.
If ismael is firstborn why isaac was put on alter ? Just wondering
Muslims believe that it was Ishmael who was put on the altar, not Isaac, according to the Qu'ran.
Ishmael is an illegimitate son, not asked by God. It was the initiatitive of Sarah, not God. And Ishmael was a son of a slave, not of a wife. The narratives had to shift or change according to later practices
The Canaanites sacrificed their first born to God.
Abraham represents the rebuttal of this tradition.
Human sacrifice was a thing up to the NT. Hence the Jesus story.
I'm wondering if Genesis 22 (minus the "God stopped Abraham" portion) would fit parameters used by people who have scanned the Bible for hidden messages. The Bible code comes to mind as one (now derided) example, but that code itself arose from the prevalence of things like gematria, or every 33rd letter of a book leading to some sort of sentence like "God is Great" (memory fails me). I admit, it's a hell of a reach, but it looks as though the Bible was written by and for these types of reachers, and if significance can be found in the chapter by removing that slight portion from it I'd argue that is itself significance towards the line being added later.
As to why the line may have been added later (or even why it wouldn't have been included in the original), child sacrifice used to be a thing amongst certain civilizations in the past as burial urns have been found with child remains numerous times. It could be the case that when originally written, it was traditional to the times, but as time went on such practices fell out of favor as being barbaric, hence the inclusion.
Nonsense
@@Texasmade74 Well, yeah, that IS the biggest criticism of the Bible code. Things like Jewish gematria still seem to garner a lot of respect though, so it's a viable line of inquiry.
@@-lloygic-3565 I think you should actually read into biblical scholarship and archeology not gematria
@@Texasmade74 Good for you! I hope that's working out for you.
@-lloygic-3565 it's obviously working out just fine
Save yourself 45 minutes, the answer is no
You saved me 45 minutes. Thank you! The talkbacks are interesting though.
Hi
‘FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD HE GAVE ( SACRIFICED) HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON SO THAT WHO SOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM WILL NOT PERISH BIT HAVE LIFE EVERLASTING’ JOHN 3: 16
GOD ALONE TOOK ON THE BURDEN BY THE SMOKING FURNACE MOVING THROUGH THE SEVERED PARTS OF THE ANIMALS OF THE COVENANT BETWEEN HIM AND ABRAHAM IN GENESIS!
HE FORESHADOWED JESUS’S SACRIFICIAL DEATH BY HIS FAITHFUL WILLINGNESS TO ‘TAKE NOW YOUR SON YOUR ONLY ( UNIQUE AS TO MIRACULOUS BIRTH) SON WHOM THOU LOVEST AND SACRIFICE HIM AS A BURNT OFFERING IN THE LAND OF MORIAH ( BITTERNESS IN HEBREW) ON A MOUNTAIN I WILL SHOW YOU’
Nonsense
where is your evidence