Darkness, Light, and Vision: Dungeons and Dragons 5e Rules Explained
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarter.com/projects/... We shed some light on the rules for darkness and vision in Dungeons and Dragons 5e.
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there are 3 types of Darkness: normal, magical & "DM says no PC can see"
It's funny how often I run into that third one, I think it might be every time
"This isn't regular darkness. This is.....Advanced Darkness."
Yeah, I've noticed that.
A Darkmantel's darkness is a mix of the last two
Thick Smokey-smoke
I believe the two human fighters in the pitch black room having a straight roll rather than disadvantage happens because they wouldn't be able to see each other, making it harder to hit one another, but it would also be harder to block an attack. If you can't see the sword coming you can't parry it or block it with your shield very easily
Also, a perfect example of tremorsense is Toph from Avatar: The Last Airbender
Totally agree. If we consider 2 fighters in pitch black both having Offensive Disadvantage and DEFENSIVE Disadvantage (which in DND is normally just treated like Offensive Advantage due to having only the attacker roll, like in attacking restrained or stunned targets), then these cancel out to normal attacks. Yes my normal offensive ability is muted in the darkness, but so is the target's normal defensive ability.
I see as that is the intent of the rule... but I would still give disadvantage to the attackers only.
@@ogrokun Yeah just depends how you want to play and how you want to weight the factors I mentioned. Maybe the lack of seeing your target matters that much more in the DM's opinion. Love how malleable DND rules are :)
I think both fighters should roll perception (sounds, air movement, smells, floor vibration, flying sweat, etc.) to even able to attack each other, not just swing wildly in the darkness. And if the defender loses the perception roll, the attack against it is a straight roll, otherwise it hears the attack, and can do some defense, thus giving a disadvantage to the attacker. And if one is begins to stealth, the other has to beat a bigger perception DC. And if they start a grapple, everything changes again, in my opinion to the straight attack rolls against each other.
Yes! Consider most sword fights. It's not that people keep missing. It's that they keep getting blocked. You need vision to block.
It's not that they fight "just as well" when both are blinded vs non-blinded. It's that, relative to their opponent, they have just as much of "advantage" (or lack thereof) over their opponent when both combatants can see vs when both combatants can't see. Theory of relativity and all that jazz. When everything is moving at the same pace, it might as well be standing still.
Honestly, o say this doesn't make sense is to not think beyond "but it should be harder to fight while blinded!".
As a busy DM who has to refresh on rules between sessions but usually on the go, I find myself needing something to LISTEN to instead of read. Went looking for these rules and, out loud, said
"Fuck yeah Dungeon Dudes, you're the best" in the same tone a scripted commercial character might say it. Thanks for being so awesome and helping people like me out with this content. With TIMESTAMPS usually too! Best channel.
In regards to the two fighters fighting in a pitch black room, maybe adding your perception to the attack rather than your typical attack mod to reflect how well you can determine their location based off of sound
Lucaccino17 niiiice
I like this
I usually run a perception check at the beginning of the attack and if made, the attack proceeds as it would normally go in the dark (to lower the "dumb luck" factor).
That's a good option. Otherwise I would use the RAW with straight attacks because that represents their chance to hit not the "goodness" of their attacks, if the two human fighters are fighting in broad daylight they will obviously both fight more skillfully both on attack and defence than if they are both in darkness. But if they are both in darkness their attack vs the others defence is still equal so their relative chance to hit should be the same but they will absolutely look like two people flailing around wildly and bumbling into each other's attacks.
That is an excellent idea! I'll probably implement that in my next campaign.
My take on magical darkness is drawn from Tolkien lore. In the Silmarillian, after Ungoliant devouerd the Two Trees, she issued for a darkness that not only pierced the eye, but the heart/soul as well. Only Manwe could overcome it and to only see a darker darkness.
In other words, I posit that supernatural or magical darkness is a sphere that is inpenetrable.
Elves might see in darkness, but do they see why kids love the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch™?
This is one of the best comments I’ve ever seen! - Kelly
I think this is where True Sight is required.
Mous3 how many minutes did it take to get that tm symbol? I seem to struggle, I blame my iPhone.
Tremorsense will easily explain how they crammed all that Graham into Golden Grahams
No, but devil sight does.
Can I just say, I LOVE your rules on silhouettes. It's an extremely interesting mechanic and Im excited to implement it into my campaign.
When reading the rules on magical darkness vs magical light spells, it seems to me that magical darkness is more like anti-light that radiates from a specific point because it can be blocked by the basket trick.
Actual darkness is the absence of light. But magical darkness is the presence of a source which is radiating anti-light and repels and displaces light.
in a two person brawl in darkness, I would keep disadvantage on both sides, simply to create atmosphere: you tripped over a chair, or walked into a bookcase, or your leg snagged on a branch. Players will remember that, either as a major pain and then they will prepare tools accordingly to prevent it from happening again, or they might see it as a fun encounter.
in addition, I will also scale luminosity in the other direction. heavily obscured, lightly obscured, normal light, bright light, and blinding light. where in blinding light, you're effectively as blind as in heavily obscured, and dark vision doesn't work, I might even argue that Dark Vision will make Bright Light into Blinding Light, since it increases the light level by 1.
Also thanks for addressing Magical Darkness and Darkvision, too many new players think they work together.
If you thought the dungeon dudes would go light on pun's you thought wrong
You have some very dark humor Gabe Parada
I see what you did there.
If you thought this, you are obviously in the dark about who they are.
You'd have to be pretty dim witted to think that
My houserule? Cats have darkvision!!!!!
My house rule? Cats and other nocturnal beasts don't have darkvision but they do have nightvision. It won't work where there is no light at all such as deep underground, but it will usually work outside even at night where star/moonlight might assist. It's essentially low light vision. I recall being told earlier edition had something similar. That's just a natural ability. Darkvision is a supernatural that would allow someone to see through darkness even when in a room totally isolated from even the faintest of light sources.
@@oOPPHOo Yes, that's one thing 3.0 did so much better than 5E. Most nocturnal creatures should have low-light vision.
@@oOPPHOo another good example of Darkvision being supernatural is the fact that it has a strict radius. It's not your eyes being able to pick up more detail from available light (otherwise it wouldn't work in total darkness, or additionally it would let you see farther away in the dark if you used a spyglass). Instead, darkvision is an emission that your body let's out that you can see, kind of like a magical echolocation that you get as a visual signal. It's also very detailed for shapes but not much else (why it cant see colors)
At the very least they should have keen senses that applies to vision and hearing not just smell, as should most beasts frankly.
8:58 You can't see to hit, you can't see to block. Also, if you ascribe to the idea of HP being as much "morale" as pure wounds, minor hits received in total darkness freak you out more, as you can't see how badly you've been cut, how badly you are bleeding, so even minor hits and cuts are perceived as greater, accounting for taking hits as normal when both persons are in the dark.
How about disadvantage to attack and -2 to AC?
I'd like to see your guy's opinion on Illusions specifically how they can create cover and what is and isn't applicable to enemies.
Keep in mind there is a difference to actually being behind something and just looking like it with many illusion spells though a few may offer resistance akin to cover most come only with a sense of rationalization but no protective value.
@@Quandry1 I get that but I would like to see a video going into detail about usages of Illusions in battle.
@@Sparkle5fanboy i second this. An illusiory box wouldnt really give covers bonus to ac but it would hamper perception of the enemy. And likely impose disadvantage if the illusion was well used.
Another part of the video would be special senses relating to illusions. I do agree blindsight and illusions is a very interesting grey area. For example a sonar based creature and most illusions lack a physical presence. (Some do however. Even being tangible enough to interact with. Others creating sound and smell and light and temperature where appropriate.) I would have to very much consider each creature and what form their blindsight might take.
For me.. against silent image and minor illusion. Id say the creature might get a pass if its passive perception is high enough or at least give it advantage or a free action to try see through the illusion. But for something like major illusion i would generally think it would hold up to blindsight. Maybe even tremorsense as it generates full sensory feedback. (As long as the image was in contact with the ground as normal)
But i would love to know what experienced players and dms think having read into the rules more
@@Desdemona-XI My favorite is Using Mirage Aracne outside a dragons Layor making everything inside Lava or a pool of acid. They have truesight but can still interact with it meaning that they would be damaged by it while not being able to see it.
No mention of Skulker?
In part, "You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding. Dim light doesn't impose disadvantage on your Perception checks relying on sight."
Both game changing when considering this topic.
Don't forget gloom stalker too
On page 183 of the players handbook the last line of a heavily obscured area. "A heavily obscured area doesn't blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it."
That would mean in a pitch black room with a candle in it, the area around the candle is visible and isn't obscured by darkness. So basically your house rule is just the rule
This last phrase is in errata, so first print of the books (like mine) don't have it. It is a fair mistake.
I think their point was more that there can be 50' of pitch black darkness between you and the candle, and as per the rules because it is between you and the candle it blinds you to the candle and its surroundings if you went by RAW. It depends on how you read "Obscured by it".
@@lord6617 The RAW isn't clear enough to definitely require that interpretation. Thus you can easily take the more sensible interpretation that darkness is only capable of obscuring that which is in darkness even if the other listed examples would reasonably be capable of blocking line of sight into an area but past it as well.
@justBinia If that's their point, then it ignores the the line I quoted.
In the instance where darkness is caused by the absence of light, then a light source will cause the area around it to no longer be heavily obscured. The 50' of darkness is heavily obscured while the lit area is not. While you are effectively under the blind condition, that only applies to the heavily obscured area. If you have the ability to see past the 50' point, then you can see the area
@Thiago Salvador Agreed, but the errata does address their house rule.
I never noticed there were rules for this stuff. Maybe it's from being a long time 1e player/dm, where many rules were vague about things like this, but, our group always relied on real world common sense for governing natural lighting and the various ways to see in that light. We also interpretted the Darkness spell the way you do. It's not technically darkness, it is light exclusion or nullification.
I love how Talmudic these kind of discussions get.
And that is absolutely a nod of approval gents!
With the Darkness spell, I always imagined that the magic used simply creates a bubble which blocks light from passing through it. It's not really a shadow but more like a manifestation of some magical incorporeal material.
My concern for this interpretation is why have a difference between darkness and fog if it's impenetrable?
@@michaelsorensen7567 it does give different dispel conditions. Darkness requires light from a spell of 3rd level or higher to dispel, whereas fog cloud requires a breeze or atmospheric effect.
"A creature effectively suffers from the Blinded condition (see Conditions ) *when trying to see something in that area*.
"
That is to say anything that is within that area is heavily obscured, not that your entire vision itself is obscured. Your character doesn't go blind, you simply superimpose the Blinded rules on any attempt to see anything within that heavily obscured area.
I'm sad that you attributed Tremor Sense to Daredevil instead of Toph from TLA. Still a dope video tho
I would say that Daredevil has more like blindsight than tremorsense (or possibly both).
I would agree. Daredevils sense isnt limited by ground contact. But tophs is.
Yeah, Daredevil uses echolocation and heightened smell to "see" things around him. That's Blindsight.
I'm starting my first homebrew campaign on Monday morning, my first time DMing at all. Watching ALL your videos again to get as much out of them as possible! 😂 Thanks guys for giving me so much info to work with. 👊🏻
Absolutely love the channel, I've had it on in the background while working all day trying to subconsciously absorb all the amazing D&D info while trying to be a (semi) responsible adult. If you are ever looking for ideas, I'd love to see a series on the different monster types, such videos about undead, elementals, animals, etc. I'm running with alot of undead right now and trying to figure out all the special rules and immunities as well as which undead monsters are the coolest. Keep up the amazing videos.
BOOM! This was an incredibly helpful and illuminating video! Thanks so much!
Thank you for doing these guides, Dudes, they are fun, informative and well made :D
I would love to see a video on how you guys run perception rules. Perception rolls, passive perception, insight and investigation.
In addition, I would love to know what type of rolls you as a DM make for the players behind the screen and why.
I'm about to start running a Curse of Strahd campaign this tuesday, and I'm so glad you guys uploaded this today!! Very nice info, super relevant to the kind of games I like to run.
Your arguments made good sense. They will be taken under discussion at our table
There is an errata thats basically validates and cements the house rule on darkness obscurring. But the phrasing is a little awkward. So it works out together well.
As a mixed martial artist, I do say, from raw, yes, two fighters cancelling out Advantage and Disadvantage, in terms of COMBAT is actually realistic, in terms of simplicity for combat between the two. I'm near sighted, and tend to soar at disadvantage anyway. I train to get around it by relying on sound, what movement I can see, and other factors. Everything else I tend to agree with.
MMA neglects weapons and armor factors though.
Great video, guys! Very helpful.
Very helpful you two. I created a blind monk and use "Blindsense, and Tremorsense" for him to perceive his world. This video helped me understand much of my character and how to play him. Thank you!!
Great video, dudes, long waited. Hehe. Great insight in the lighting factors. I quite intuitively followed what you said about being in darkness and seeing people in light. I never noticed how fighting in the dark is as easy as fighting under light. It reminded me the rules for aging in 3.5, in which as you grew older your vision got better. Funny mechanical issues.
I didn't have to finish this to know that these guys deserve props for making a good discussion on this topic. I didn't finished it yet but i already shared it to several groups who ran rpg. Great Job guys and thanks for this video
Excellent and informative video; and you guys use a very sensible set of house rules when it comes to this particular subject.
Daredevil senses are more akin to echolocation as he can pick up 'sight' of things in the air. Tremorsense only deals with things making actual tremors on the ground. In the example given, heartbeats would not be perceptible with tremorsense because there is no way a heartbeat generates a tremor on the ground.
New clueless GM here, and videos like this really helps!
I'm a veteran DM but with the new rules so much has been changed that this really helps to clear the air!
ruclips.net/video/icyNGxr1iSI/видео.html
So many puns! Thanks, this is really going to improve my game. You guys rock
A bit more feedback. Clarification for light darkness and darkvision has officially made a huge difference inn tactics role play and dramatic tension in my game. Thanks again!
Appreciated a lot of your logic behind these mechanics however, I feel the biggest confusion for players involves darkvision because they think it allows them to see perfectly in darkness. Even if the whole party is elves they'll still have disadvantage in darkness against their enemies. Darkvision only allows you to see in "Darkness as if it were dim light." Dim light = disadvantage.
And there is the hard cap of 60 ft.. beyond that radius everyone is equal.
@@alandcapelari except for drows who have 120ft, fortunately they can't see in sunlight
@@paternusowen2106 That's correct, there are other exceptions, such as a human warlock with Devil's Sight.
Dim light imposes disadvantage on perception checks, not attack rolls.
@@StilltheAp0llyon That is good to point out. If an enemy can see you in dim light but you can't see them they would have Adv on their first attack. So, I guess it would be the PC's Perception with Dis vs. the enemy's stealth/hide to determine whether the target is initially unseen.
The way I judge the darkness spell working (from a physics standpoint) is that the photons cannot enter the area, but the a spell doesn’t have an exact radius: it has a very vague outline, and it appears how light can penetrate a short distance through water. This way, you can’t judge the exact center of the sphere at any given time.
Edit: also, unrelated note, using invisibility would make you blind by normal physics, so I judge it to be more like perfect camouflage or a magic hunting blind than bending photons around you, so those photons still reach your eyes and allow you to see.
Invisibility by physics only makes you blind when light is forced to bend around you, which is closest to practical application. But physics allows for light to pass through you which makes perception possible while maintaining invisibility.
@@Quandry1 Actually, that light passing through you would still make you blind. Light needs to be absorbed in the retinas in order for the person to be able to see. If light passes through the retinas, then they do absolutely nothing. I honestly just ignore this, because invisibility is a magical spell or ability.
One could also say that invisibility caused the user to become completely see-through, except for the eyes which are simply given perfect camouflage. That way you are as hard to see as possible without making you blind(though being able to constantly see through your eyelids might still get annoying).
In theoretical physics its possible for the eye to interact with the light as it passes through. The harder part is getting it to pass through in the first place. This is why bending the light is considered more achievable.
There are many useful applications of the darkness spell, depending on how you rule magical darkness. Here is how I do it: Any area of magical darkness appears as an area of negative light. If a creature has no way to see through magical darkness, it will appear as a solid, dark, spherical area with loosely defined edges. While inside the area, you only see pure blackness. It is visually darker than standard darkness if you are capable of differentiating, such as with normal darkvision (since you are seeing as if in dim light). Darkness is good for stopping line of sight against enemy spells or other ranged attacks, it can allow a character to give several creatures disadvantage with no penalty to itself, or even dozens of applications outside of combat.
Oh yes! Another video from the dungeon dudes. I hope you guys are staying safe!
Also, I guess you could say your video is... a beacon of *light* in these trying times?
I'll see myself out now.
Yooo I was googling about dark vision yesterday because I was confused this has perfect timing!
Darkness matters to me too! It drives me crazy how 5e handles Darkness. Thank you very much.
Nice overview on the topic, dudes.. Another contribution!
Great conversation. When I read the rules I thought to myself that I needed one of those Hand held wheel charts where I could dial in in light, cover and vision but in the end it’s about common sense. Also Kelly what is on your t-shirt!
Perfect analysis... thank you so much.
Thank you for all every contents of D&D 5e. I really enjoy it. I could agree the earlier part, with an example of street lights. But advantage-disadvantage cancelling parts, when two human fighters in the dark example, I think it is better to let it be. Because blocking or evading attacks are also quite depending on vision. I mean darkness should give disadvantage on deffending as well as attacking.
Monty, when you mention the description of magical darkness, it reminds me of the 'Myrk' from the Dresden Files (book 10, Small Favor, chapter 23). Excerpt...
“Listen, hobs can’t stand light. Any kind of light. It burns them and it can kill them. That’s why they called up this myrk before they came in.”
“Myrk?”
“It’s matter from the Nevernever. Think of it as a cellophane filter, only instead of being around a light, it is spread all through the air. That’s why we couldn’t see the light from my amulet, and why the muzzle flash of my gun was so muted. And that’s how we’re going to take them out.”
Awesome discussion.
your example of seeing through the natural darkness between the streetlights is spot on and exactly how I would handle that situation but if the darkness between the lights is a darkness spell that magic creates a an obscuring darkness interposed between you and the other light. In that case I would adhere to the RAW as that interpretation is closer to the way that spell has worked in previous editions and official novels. Every DM is of course welcome to do things however they feel is appropriate in their game.
My mood darkened with those puns at the end. That's how you know it's a good dad joke. When it physically hurts your opponent. 😜
Makes a lot of sense. Thanks.
I interpret the darkness spell as a spherical schwarzshild. That means that in this sphere light cannot exist. As if there were a gap in the medium that allows electromagnetic waves
I can see how you would still have disadvantage attacking with a ranged weapon from darkness into light because you wouldn't be able to see your weapon to aim. You just wouldn't be guessing where your opponent is so you wouldn't automatically miss on an incorrect guess.
For a visual of the Darkness Spell, you might use the Volume Absorption node in Blender's 'Cycles Renderer' & run the density up above about ten. The light just gets absorbed and you can't see into, out of or through it. You might be able to see people on the edge of it with disadvantage to hit/perceive, but light just gets swallowed up soon after hitting the surface. It also looks cool.
When I read this rule, my first thought went back to one of my favorite games. Splinter Cell Conviction. "When it's light, you can't see into a place that's dark. But when it's dark, you can see what's around you much better."
At 9:10, discussing fighting in a room in darkness. The nullification is there because while the attacker cannot identify weak spots, the defender cannot dodge. If the attacker can guess the correct direction, they are as likely to get through the defences of the defender because the defender cannot react. Disadvantage for not being able to perceive the others body, advantage for not being perceived. And you still have to pick the right direction and distance.
As a Dm since 82.. thank you.. as a photographer thank you for the Verisimilitudic View.
This was really interesting. In my games blindsight works like echolocation so somebody with it can usually see through illusions unless they have a sound component and see those under an invisibility spell unless they or the invisible creature has also been magically silenced. Greater invisibility and the innate invisibility of some creatures like Firbolgs only requires a stealth check to fool someone with blindsight but if their stealth check is failed or they stop being stealthy then they can be "seen" by the individual with blindight and attacked by them without penalty. Tremorsense is the same as blindsight except it only applies to things touching the ground or another solid object that touches the grournd within its range plus it can ignore barriers like walls, floors, ceilings, etc.
I came here mostly for the 'light' puns...you did not disappoint.
Great video, although this makes me miss infra/ultravision from 2nd edition.
18:30 I'd say blind sight sees through illusions that make no sound since it's essentially echolocation but at the same time a hovering creature making no noise would not be detected with blind sight or perhaps not detect someone standing very still (very high stealth check) in the corner of a room.
Good one guys! Lot of rule oddities in D&D and there always has been that require some DM rulings and tailoring rules to a particular group. It seems like many D&D rules, which have to be technically written, have at least sometimes been written by folks who lack the same kind of technical writing skills you'd find in other kinds of manuals. Leads to things like having to make the kinds of rule mods you're talking about. All the best to you!
There are some things misunderstood in the rule sets causing this. for a clearer understanding, watch this video ruclips.net/video/icyNGxr1iSI/видео.html
Ok, help me out understading something here regarding the spell "Fog cloud"(You create a 20-foot-radius Sphere of fog centered on a point within range. The Sphere spreads around corners, and its area is heavily obscured. It lasts for the Duration or until a wind of moderate or greater speed (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses it.). At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the radius of the fog increases by 20 feet for each slot level above 1st.
If a party is standing near a campfire in the middle of the forest at night, and walking away from the campfire's light is considered Heavily obscured, lets say a group of human bandits manage to surround the party and the spell caster notices them and casts fog cloud on a high enough lvl to cover everyone party and bandits.
The definition of fog cloud states that it converts the area into heavily obscured but the are was already heavily obscured cause nightime and the spell does not nullify the effects of the campfire, so does the spell come to no effect then? if so what would happen if the cast of fog cloud only covers the party? or what if it's cast on top of some of the bandits only ?
Sorry for the lenght of this but I have been thinking about this problem for a while and none of the solutions i came up with completely sadisfy me.
Just because there is light from the campfire doesn't mean it nullifies the fog cloud. It might be a now glowing fog but it is heavily obscured by all in the area of the fog cloud. But it effects sight only not sound or smell. But you would be at disadvantage to attack
Four years later this video is still saving the butts of new DMs 😎
I think what would feel right if the target can be seen as a silhouette, that you wouldn't get an advantage, even if it doesn't see you, but you also wouldn't get disadvantage from the target being in darkness. Maybe you can see where it is, but you can't necessarily see it perfectly, and you don't see which parts of it's body is covered by armor and so on. Also, you could add a way to get an advantage on such a target, E.G. adding this property to the sharp shooter feat.
Pettersony Strawman these rules sound like they translate directly into storytelling
Old Dungeon Dudes intros are almost 90s level nostalgic now 🤣
I would like to add this obscure rule on passive checks from Chapter 7 of the Player's Handbook.
"Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:
10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check
If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5."
This means if you have disadvantage on Perception checks, your passive Perception has a minus 5 penalty to the score. This is a major reason why drow using 'dancing lights' is so useful, because they don't take a minus 5 to their passive Perception.
This also allows characters and creatures with advantage from special senses like a cat's smell and a wolf's hearing to give them a plus 5 to their passive Perception.
1) Awesome windwaker shirt! 2) For the two creatures fighting each other in the dark cancelling the adv/dis discussion, I agree it doesn't make much sense RAW wise. However, I'd make a slight modification to your recommendation. Instead of " When you attack a target you can see that can't see you, you have advantage." I'd change it to "When you attack a target -you can see- **and know where they are**, you have advantage." This will free up that little bit of wiggle room for those with abilities/multi-actions to use one of their actions to make a Perception check and try to find them, then attack as normal (as they'd be back to the advantage/disadvantage cancellation condition again). Also will then allow for blindsight, tremorsense, etc. abilities to function as well. It's also easy for a DM to tell their player "you don't know exactly where the target is, roll with disadvantage."
Thanks a bunch for bringing light to these shady situations.
Love the videos. Do u all do any live streaming for dungeons and dragons
We have a live stream every Tuesday night at 6pm EST called Dungeons of Drakkenheim, you can find the episodes on this RUclips channel.
Oh my goodness -do I love situational point stacking!
The Gm is always the master but, yeah baby. A good point stack turns a “fight” into a “hunt”
First things first, good video. This is an area of the rules I haven't really looked into aside from forgetting what dim light does because I tend to play humans a lot, so this discussion helped.
I'm going to have disagree on the two human fighters bit at around 8 minutes in. The point made in the video was that two human fighters going at it in the dark (not that) would normally have advantage from being unseen but disadvantage from not seeing their target, but you think disadvantage would make more sense. I think both having advantage and disadvantage that cancel out makes more sense. I've done some longsword sparring so I'll be using that as a basis for my argument. When taking a hit, you will naturally move to avoid or minimise the blow, which is not the reaction that D&D has in a combat turn. This happens from being aware of what's coming and nothing more. If someone couldn't see their attacker and couldn't be seen, it would be unlikely to hit but a hit coming in a weak spot would hit at full force. Even in armour, rather than the opponent avoiding being hit in weak spots, if you attack is going for that point it will probably land. Another option could be disadvantage but hits roll damage as crits, but that seems too complex.
Very good topic!
I've done a lot of night fighting with swords, at some point you can just anticipate movements even if you can't see much. Might cost you a hit or two, but you can adapt.
I've also done some shooting at night without additional lights or night vision. Same thing here.
Silhouettes are very important in combat, even in very low light situations. Dark Vision on the other hand can be overcome by no light at all. Compared to technology Dark Vision is just Night Vision, which works like the eyes of nocturnal hunters. They still need stray photons to hit the retina, bounce around in teh eyes and thus giving a clearer picture without colors, as many Dark Vision descriptions state, it's all grey or green for some. Having a dungeon without any light source would make Dark Vision useless. Having light sources is always good to see fine details like... written words or colors.
Magical Darkness is a sphere of darkness that completely blocks the light, at least to me.
when we did an eberon campain, we had a kinda made up common item glow stones, tiny little stones cheap that just glow brightly about the size of a small marble, keep them in our pockets and we used to carry plenty of them, and we use to toss hand fulls of them at enemys so to light up the area, solved all the dark nitty gritty stuff, even enemy uses them as lanterns and lights etc
Thank you for clarifying this! One question: If you get Aspect of the Eagle, is that the same as Darkvision? It only says "dim light doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks."
I think attacking with straight rolls in the dark reflect the fact that yes, you have disadvantage, but your target also can't dodge effectively since they don't see you. They actually might wave their hand with a weapon and run into your blade. So it makes sense to me.
The rules on darkness and with how commonly players choose races with darkvision... I've taken to pretty much ignoring darkness when adequate potential light sources exist in the party.
Only magical darkness, which can block darkvision is worth the trouble to look at the effects.
Traditionally the darkness spell creates an inky blob no light can penetrate (except a light spell of higher leve)l. Even at high noon in a meadow,nothing can see into or out of the spell. I have used this spell many times over the years to create tension as the PC'S fight enemies blinded while their enemies are much better at fighting in the dark.
I like to think of blind sight a lot like how you said tremor sense is, like they are blind, but they have heightened senses, if you aren’t stealthy they can hear or smell you, they just have much higher pinpoint direction like our favorite red spandex hero
Something people also forget is that you cannot discern color in dim light or darkness. That could be a good way to force the party into using light sources during puzzles or in jungle environments where colors could be key to survival
The way I do two fighters that can't see each other is that I make them roll perception checks to see if they can determine where their enemy is. If they succeed, they make the attack as normal. This is because while you can't really see them, they can't see you to defend against your attack.
With blind-sight, I treat if differently based on where their sense comes from. If they have 30 ft blind-sight based on smell and there's a nice breeze, I offset the center of their sense based on wind direction. If it's based on sound, I take into account what the character sneaking is wearing.
I've had an idea for a campaign where the sun produces no visible light (but still sheds an energy that fuels plants and produces heat) and any that are not blind can see in the dark and visualizes depth as shading and textures as colors.
Light can still be produced by fires, spells, and other means, and is needed to read none glowing text from a page or see colors that don't glow. Light disrupts the ability to see in the dark concealing things beyond it unless there is a silhouette. Darkvision allows creatures to see that much farther from a source of light and can see colors in lowlight conditions. Lighting types are darkness, glow, lowlight, and bright light. The daylight spell produces the equivalent of sunlight for light sensitivity and can be up cast to level five with effects identical to natural sunlight for the purposes of weaknesses. Glow lighting can be seen but doesn't brighten an area or hinder someone's vision but produce silhouettes and can be caused by the fairy fire spell.
World building ideas: Glowing inks, dyes, and paints cost between two and five times as much. Signs meant to last tend to be carved. Paintings can have different images between their depth, texture, and coloring. Anything that needs light to read can have players give their position away trying read it. Creatures with intimidate or fear abilities may also have glowing patterns. The darkness spell is renamed as "obscuring cloud". Thunderstorms, wet and dry cause the most light and are the most common eldritch omens among the world and can be seen deep into the underdark.
Toph from avatar the last airbender is probably one of the best examples of tremor-sense
You guys forgot about Devil's Sight!
It's quite easy to figure it out from the other kinds of visions but still would be interesting to have it on the video
I think the rolling normally for attacks in pitch dark might be a mechanics over realism thing; if both people have disadvantage, the fight will take a long time. Granted, your method makes more sense for if the time the fight takes matters, but if the whole fight is pitch darkness and timing doesnt matter, ashew the disadvantage
Enlightening vid, guys. I was curious if anyone knows of or uses light rules from other systems (Dungeon World, Numenera, Warhammer, etc)? Maybe even older edition rules? I haven't looked myself, will now though! ;)
I've always assumed the various sense just make so you aren't penalised by light level, obstruction, etc for perception checks if the sight applies, unless otherwise indicated on the ability or thing yiu're trying to see through
Would really love to see a video on mounted combat from you guys - I have a player with a mount in my game at the moment and I'm struggling a bit with certain rulings. Can you help?
This is a great idea. We'll get it on the list!
I have an "advantage" in my house rules, because I use 3 levels of advantage and disadvantage that add or subtract 1d4, 1d6 or 1d8 to 1d20 rolls. The default is 1d6. Then adjustments are made from there. (Adding or subtracting 1d8 is the same odds as rolling 2d20s.) So in different levels of light, there are different levels of advantage to a Perception check for example. In bright light, no disadvantage. In dim light, disadvantage 1 (-1d4). In darkness, disadvantage 2 (-16). In darkness with other obstacles distracting or blocking vision/hearing, disadvantage 3 (-1d8).
Is there a way you guys can make a video explaining CR. I am having trouble finding that middle ground between making an encounter too easy or too hard for my players. We are running on of the modules and I have 6 players. Currently as written they are too strong for the encounters the book offers.
I would rule that magic darkness between you and another area of light WOULD obscure your vision of the area of light opposite you and the magic darkness also.
In no form of darkness can you see through it, as per the rules for heavily obscured. Your vision is blocked. Only from inside can you see out, with the exception of darkness spells, because they specifically say that "light can not penetrate inside the area of the spell" making see out of it impossible. for more info on lighting watch ruclips.net/video/icyNGxr1iSI/видео.html
Question.
I am a teifling arcane trickster
I have dark vision and I can cast darkness.
If i cast darkness on myself I cant see out of the darkness because its magical darkness and id need devil vision to see out of it? Seems abit redundant for the teifling casting it. I can make myself a black hole that can't do anything but sit there? I'm new to 5th edition.
The problem with the encampment example is that you can't see what 'is not illuminated, there could be branches in front of you that you can't see, also even in that example RAW you're not blinded.
*"A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area."*
Meaning the heavily obscured area, not the lit area.
I think the reason the advantage and disadvantage cancels out can be explained as: soldier A is trying to guess where soldier B is to hit him with a sword, while soldier B is trying to guess where soldier A is coming from to dodge the attack. Soldier A isn’t gonna be able to attack very well, and soldier B isn’t gonna be able to dodge very well. But randomly swinging a sword side to side as you walk across the room is still gonna hit just as much in darkness as it would in daylight. AC isn’t just about whether the attacker’s aim is on, it’s also about how thick your armor is and how well you’re able to dodge. Hard to dodge when you can’t see the attack coming. Also also, the rule is that advantage and disadvantage always cancel out even if you have 15 advantages and only 1 disadvantage. It’s just a simplification.
If you really want to understand this scenario it’s even more important to keep in mind that both characters should be blinded. So how exactly did they even determine that there is a target within range anyway? Have them make perception checks based on hearing using bonus actions. That itself gives a huge disadvantage to the attacking party because they have to struggle to find the target. Then if they find the target there’s no reason to impose the permanent disadvantage. Just have it cancel out at that point.
I was thinking about this earlier.
What would you say about melee attacks having disadvantage against heavily obscured characters, but ranged attacks having disadvantage against lightly obscured characters? It's fairly easy to hit someone from 5 feet even in low light, since they are still an easily identifiable blob even if you can't tell the details, however from range that blob becomes more indistinct and harder to hit. Does this make it a bit unbalanced though?
MORE VIDEOS ABOUT RULE DISAGREEMENTS PLEASE!!
When it comes to darkness how do you handle players moving. For instance if a character in a darkness spell wants to move to an enemy to attack, how do you handle the character accurately finding the target.
You guys have forgotten about the Kuo Toa ability of "otherworldly perception", that give them pin point accuracy even if the creature is on other planes. But, as always, that video enlightenmented me a lot.
Easiest way to deal with blindsight is to treat it like sonar or echolocation. This would mean that a sneaky player hiding behind another solid object WOULD NOT be detected. This makes it very difficult, but not impossible, to sneak past a creature with blindsight, as it should be.
I know this video is over 5 years old but I just have to say the advantage and disadvantage of attacking in darkness canceling each other out makes 100% sense if I'm attacking at disadvantage because I don't know where you are but I have advantage because you don't see the attack comming
One thought to consider in the shot from the dark scenario would be how well the shooter can see their weapon…. Kinda hard to be precise when you can’t see the sights on a gun (or crossbow I’d imagine). Some modern weapons compensate for this with luminescent paint but would that work in dnd?
Advantage/Disadvantage in the dark cancelling each other out makes sense to me, as it will be tough for to defend something you can’t see.
About the question of a creature with blindsight being tricked by an illusion- I'd say that, because blindsight is not truesight, they would still see and be fooled by a visual illusion- just not invisibilty.