BETTER BASS in a small room w/ Lyngdorf TDAI-3400
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- Опубликовано: 7 окт 2024
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I want a “renters fog” t-shirt
Take my money!
i totally fell for it😅
Neighbours and bass?????
And I already Be in the Fog when 🔈🔈 Jamming anyway 😊🚬🚬🍻, Cheers 😊
Plus a portable fog machine 💨
Thank you for your content. Just a nod to Lyngdorf: As any nervous audiophile who consider a purchase, I’ve corresponded with Lyngdorf. I’m considering the TDAI 1120 as a streaming preamp with the option of using an external power amp. The help and advice they’ve given me is second to none. Very helpful. Very friendly. And with no reservations that I might not want to use their class D power section. So now I’m decided on an 1120 which, initially, I’ll use simply as a super integrated and if I feel the need I can get a tonally richer power amp to suit my very sensitive/efficient loudspeakers. And that is thanks to a very friendly customer support. A big thumps up from here. Thank you again - and good luck with the eye of Sauron😎
If you get the 1120, don't discount the value of those preset tunings. They are preset but you can change all 10 of them with parametric equalizer and high and low shelf adjustments, to really fine tune the sound to taste. And with the app open you can change the bass and treble with adjustable frequency and gain controls for on-the-fly tuning.
Helpful vid. I know there are REW tutorials on line but I think it would be helpful to see you go through the process of generating a basic frequency response curve. You have a knack for making complex stuff seem simple. Cheers.
Been using room perfect for years...end game system for me. Only upgrade I'd consider is the latest tdai3400 lyngdorf which has better tweaking ability.
Their integration of duel subs is fantastic.
One huge benefit is you can play louder without annoying neighbours as you're not exciting the room anywhere near as much.
I would love to see a review of that TDAI 3400. Its in my shortlist. (It’s a very short list, only the Lyngdorf is on it!)
This is my 2ch setup!!!! Klipsch Forte IV's and the Lyngdof 3400 - and it is amazing! I experimented with single and dual subs along with Lyngdorf's Roomperfect and my final outcome was that no subs were needed for me. Yes I am missing a bit of the lowest frequencies, but as this is a music only set up I found it to be perfect with no subs in my 5m x 5m room. I can adjust bass voicing on the fly with the Lyngdorf or adjust distance of the speaker to the wall to also affect dynamics in the room. Important to note that even with DSP, you have limitations and may find good improvements at you listening position by moving the speakers further apart or closer together.
Thanks for the room dims in your post. Other posts here were inquiring about away from the back wall position of the Fortes. Your observations would be welcomed.
Great video, John! Think that 3400 deserves a review after that! 😊
Dunno if you tried it, but the TDAI-3400 sounds best as a one box solution. I ended up selling all of my sources, preamps, tube mono blocks, interconnects and extra power cables from over the years. It might sound blasphemous to some, but I stream music from my Apple TV 4K > HDMI of the TDAI-3400 > Tekton Design Ulfbehrt speakers.
Best audio I’ve experienced in my 20 years of being in this hobby. It cured me from jumping around to different pieces of equipment and different speakers. Over the last few years, I literally geek out over the sound of this set up every single time I hear it both for music and movies
I love my little Lyngdorf integrated - I considered the purchase for about a year, based in part on your prior review, and others. I have no hangup about digital, and I love the convenience of it. We use it both for music and through HDMI for the TV, and it's been amazing. It even works reliably with the TV CEC to control power and volume, which is rare in my experience. No regrets!
Incidentally, your talk of base traps reminds me I have a natural one: there's a small bathroom ("powder room") accessible from the corner of my listening room, just next to the right speaker. All I have to do is open the door and it provides a 5 x 6 foot bass trap :-D
Hallo, vielen Dank für diesen Beitrag. Sehr informativ in Sachen Raumakustik. Lyngdorf hatte ich 2022 auf der High- End in München schon bewundert. Ganz toller Verstärker.
Would be interesting to also run Dirac on the NAD and compare the result against Roomperfect!
I have a similar small sized room like your's with 4 windows,1.5m wide aquarium, tv, bare wall behind my sofa. For over a year I find my Powernode a bit lean on the vocals and I am been waging the smallest Lyngdorf for a while now to compliment the monitors I have (so sub needed, may upgrade to beryllium tweeter later). but every time I see a comment about that brand it feels like it will not dissapoint me. Thank you for these small room tutorials!
Great video John. Off the back of your 1120 video a way back, I tried and then bought the 3400 for a smallish quirky room and have to say its excellent. Don't pretend to understand how Roomperfect works but love the results.
I'm using the EQ in the RME ADI-2 to take care of the peaks in my living room. Measured with REW which also calculated the filter parameters for manual application in the RME. Sounds punchy and weighty but also tight and fast with 2 kef kc62's to all the way down to 20Hz
glad to see you in good health
THANKS JOHN…FOR CLEARING UP ⬆️ THE FOG ABOUT YESTERDAY’s VIDEO 🤗😁…and continuing education with YOUR personal experience both here and in PORTUGAL🧐😎💚💚💚
Wait what, surely the bass absorbing plants are still doing their job ;-)
Important note; if the bass problems are nulls/dips, the DSP can’t help you.
Only if they are room modes/peaks.
This is a very good point.
Just bought an Anthem str preamp with arc correction makes a massive difference when you run the room correction software
I had a cornea transplant also man feel for you on the stitches, I’ve heard cost no object Amos and speakers and so many from all price ranges, the Lyngdorf 3400 TDAI to me sounded like a 20k intergrated I was surprised to learn it’s a good amount less!
Hi John, I use the Lyngdorf 3400 with my Dali Epicon 2 speakers and with a SVS 2000 Pro Subwoofer. It works great. McIntosh uses the Room Perfect System too 😉👍
Bass traps, while having all the drawbacks you mention, have the advantage of solving for bass nulls as well as bass peaks. Most DSP-based solutions can only solve for peaks, and in applying DSP you often change the impulse response which can lead issues in the time domain between the bass and the rest of the frequency range. DIRAC and Eikon's solutions are able to solve for phase issues but even they can't do much about nulls. Multiple subs are another way to address bass nulls, but to be effective requires putting them in spots that may be inconvenient. Getting good bass is hard.
A magnificent piece of journalism.
Great to see you back in Berlin!
Any plans to review the new Yamaha rn2000a, would be really interesting to see how the basic YPAO room correction helps in your room. Seems to be reviewing well but not much information on sound and frequency response changes after the simple calibration process. 🤞
Nice video...!!! Great, useful information provided... greatly appreciated...!!! 'Rock On' John...!!!
I stopped using RP on my TDAI-1120, because I found there seemed to be some element of compression in the upper-mids, or that's what I heard. When I switched it off, it sounded more natural in that range, so I just used the parametric-EQs to level off the boosted frequencies. It works really well.
I had to tick the left and right Polarity Inversion to get a wider sound stage and more bass. I also did 9 microphone readings until it reached 100%.
while watching this video, I suddenly started smiling to the point of laughing out loud, of course we learn a lot of things from John, but damn it, this is a never-ending game, sometime you need to stop))
I like this video but the last one was more entertaining. Thanks again!
The bass pluck at the start of the video sound abit like the walkers brothers the electrician 😊 great video as always 👍
Interesting observations. Thank you
The RoomPerfect response rolls off the deeper bass, fairly significantly, however. It is sometimes possible to reduce/re-balance those type of bass peaks, by positioning the speakers at different distances to the walls. If the passive radiator is the same distance to two (or three) walls then changing one of those to a different distance can distribute the reinforcement/room lift to spread out the "extra" energy.
Maybe next year, a comparison video of all the April 1 "products". We all know how much you would love that. lol
Love your vids! Just been bit by the bug cause of your show..! The content is great and the humor is ammazing :D
John - have you tried creating convolution filters in REW to be used in Roon? These type of videos are great! Thanks
Damn John ...i was shaking all my cables like crazy and two spiders came out of one speaker cable...wearing headphones🤣🤣🤣
I think you'd really enjoy Wave Collector. Little known electronic music producer here in the US. Very well done stuff. There are two albums; "Catalog of Stolen Worlds" and "Wave Games". Just trying to give back a little. Hope you enjoy ❤
I was really looking forward to hear your opinion about tdai 3400 as amp. (Especially soundwise comparison to tdai 1120 and this Nad) It would be really great to hear. Let’s hope… :) Tdai 1120 user
Love the cable rest on the left speaker behind you. Youneed to add a 'Continuity' credit to your notes!
Hi John. Really like these sorts of videos. Would love if you could do a similar one with REW and using Roon as the DSP engine. And then if possible a follow up to compare it to Dirac and other native solutions
@Darko Audio When I began to watch the video and you mentioned that the NAd was in Portugal I have thought... now is when John decides to use a parametric equalizer.
But I already saw that the solution was to use Room Perfect.
Have you ever considered using a parametric equalizer?
It would have the advantage of being able to correct regardless of the amplifier you use.
I have a small room, but I have not used DIRAC yet. Instead, my thinking is, that if for example I use headset, then the room does not influence that much, however the sound is not quite room-filling. If instead, I use my loudspeakers but reduce the isosceles listening triangle by more or less sitting directly in front of the speakers (imagine, I have placed them like a couple of computer speakers just behind my table with computer monitor). Then, my theory is, that I can turn the volume down, because of the short distance to my ears, and the room sound reflections are reduced because of the less volume and also the increased distance from the speakers to the surfaces of walls, ceiling and floor. You could try this out, making measurements for comparison, when you reduce the size of the distance from your ears to the loudspeakers by reducing the listening triangle. Anyway, I guess the sound is jammed by my computer monitor and other phenomena like I have wall behind one speaker and window behind the other, but still, in principle a purely "egoist listening position" should improve bass compared to at solution with a speaker in two corners of the room?
Would you ever consider to fix some of these room issues with subs? The subs themselves should correct most of the issues, but if you want to you can also play with the phase and that should also neutralize the problem. Remember that all these room corrections are filters, like an equalizer, and it does add a layer between the source and your ears which can be detrimental. Using more subs naturally cancel out a lot of room issues, but the second option mentioned above also works.
i got a small room and i got better bass thru dsp. it sure works wonders, you can not go back after trying it out. it is that huge of a difference.
i tried dirac but did not like the results, i did the eq myself by ear.
@Darko Audio Have you explored more of miniDSP's products? For example, the DDRC-24 or SHD? They have many DSP products with Dirac built in, and have many different products for different needs. I see you already use their microphone, and I'm curious if you have thoughts on these products. Thanks as always for the videos!
Hi John thank you for your entertaining and informative reviews I always enjoy them.
This video is very interesting, one of the reasons I bought the TDAI3400 was my smallish 5.5m x 3.5m room with large windows at each end and although my PMC Twentyfive 22i speakers have forward firing transmission line ports their backs have to be close to the front wall as they are set on stone plinths. I have followed the R.P procedure 3 times with a factory reset between each and despite it achieving 98% room knowledge I loose allthe base. To compensate I have had to increase the base in the web portal to +7db to 500hZ. Very strange and although I still prefer the sound of R.P on than off I am left wondering if I am experiencing the full effect of its software. As with a few of the earlier comments I too would love to hear what you think of the 3400 as a stand alone “future-fi” solution given the higher power and price tag compared with the 1120. I was touch and go when choosing the 3400 over the Naim Unity Nova or Nad 33.
Question if you changed your speaker cables would you feel the need to redo R.Perfect?
Great review 😎👍
No John it's quite simple to control the bass by using a subwoofer! Place Behind the listener pointing up on a table about 2 feet from the ground..play around with the crossover frequency as your indicated maybe around 35 Hz and you have to set the delay! By moving the subwoofer from the wall behind to your sitting position this could be less than half an inch at a time, use your calibrated mic with rew till you flatten out the response, the subwoofer has to be out of phase to your main speakers. No heavy room treatment needed in rare circumstances if a room is very angela not with a flat wall behind then maybe two subs. If you got higher frequencies what might be a room condition the subwoofer sort it out if not use a mini DSP into the sub adjusting the higher frequencies 140hz
I don't agree with correction software can completely wipe out certain frequencies by using the sub approach is like listening without any walls you're not affecting the Frequency from your min speakers but just reflections this is a common thing used in top end Studios surprised you don't know about it.
Mhm I guess I would have to start with Room EQ wizard measurements. My subwoofer is a REL T-zero III, so seperate controls for stereo and LFE input as it directly feeds from the front speaker outputs. So anything coming out the AVR would effect the combination of my speakers and sub together. Also I have no seperate source devices, all is handled by the AVR. My personal first measures were blocking the rear reflex ports with foam and moving the subwoofer around until it sounded better by ear.
I saw the title and knew it was an April Fool so I didn't watch... This however was super interesting thanks John! 👍
Geez. Your neighbors must love you 😂
Great video series. You're definitely highlighting some of the power of DSP. So far all of these have been baked into either active speakers or integrated amplifiers. Are you aware of any separate digital in, digital out solutions that could be inserted say between a streamer and a DAC?
For your listening room in Germany and Portugal, what are their dimensions (room depth, width and height)? Then we can gauge the space's relative sizes to one another as you relate your acoustical experiences within each space. Thanks for the consideration. I always appreciate the work you do!
Silly question: got the 1120 and it was my impression that in the focus position reading the mic had to point towards the speakers, not up?
Correct. User manual shows microphone pointing towards speakers.
Hi Darko, i got a 3,80x4,57mt (17 square meters) room. Is it too small for klipsch forte III? Thanks a lot
Why didn’t you use the TDAI3400 own amp? Had the M33 (basicaly the same amp section as M23), liked the Lyngdorf more personally.
Damn, fooled me!
That Lyngdorf sounds like a useful tool, but I only have two kidneys. I should probably keep one. ($8k)
In that hifi rack did you just got a new power conditioner Audioquest Niagara 1200? Will you be doing a review on it?
Hello John, enjoyed the video, however I have a question that has nothing to do with the subject.
Noticed the PS Audio unit on your rack. Is that their phono stage and will you be doing a review on it?
Great video as always. Great topic for all us small roomers out there. My situation is sadly the reverse in which I have a 20db drop at 30hz - 40hz so hopefully with your introduction to a two subwoofer set and Dirac I can tackle the issue.
Have you had much experience with attenuators?
This is a subject thats caught my attention, as I'm using an old Audiolab 8000a with 100mv inputs so the 2v from my DAC and cd player may benefit. Just wondering if any audio drawbacks? Would welcome any thoughts
Sorry if I’m off topic but will you have a look at the Mission 778x? I read your article about it but it would be nice with a proper review. Great work!
The room I listen in has a massive almost 20db boost at 50hz and it drives me insane, haven't measured it with a mesurement mic, just REW and my MacBook's microphone, but in the future I might have to consider something like this.
Could you possibly move the listening position? I have a very small room and found moving the listening position solved most of my issues, result was having my listening position near enough dead centre of the room.
Hi John, I do like your series about room acoustics, however, in this one I am missing something: low frequency standing waves can be generally only dealt with high-volume bass traps. DSP-based room correction only works at the given listening position. Well, unless you are sat, like I am in my room, in the very centre, where there is no bass at all, because it is the spot, where the acoustic pressure equals zero according to the physics of the standing wave 😅
Very interesting and by the way, I totally believed “fog” joke though rolled my eyes “oh, another inaudible audiophile issue”… 😂
DSP and room correction make me wanna move to active systems like new Sonos era and similar by SVS and so on.
Would be interesting to hear your opinion on this.
I do listen to music in a small room and it’s not acoustically treated at all. And at home, it’s even worse as it’s mostly glass walls.
Any tips? (other then move and rent another place, it’s already on the list. )
So John, would it be fair to say you now priortise feature-set with an amp above all other factors, assuming amp is of decent baseline quality?
Me sitting here, thinking: Why did John not EQ that massive 1.4kHz peak in the freq response?
I tested that on other horn speakers in the 2-3kHz region, and only 2dB more or less in that region made such a massive diference in how coloured (or natural) it sounded.
John, how is electronic music with the Forte’s please!? Every review I see is for vocal driven music…thanks!
Add a sub and perfection is made!
I have a SVS subwoofer + Heresy III integrated quite nicely. Only peaks is around 20Hz (subwoofer in the corner) and from Heresy III i get 110Hz peak. Luckily no suck outs at listening position.
With this combination, i DPS'd the 20hz with my MiniDSP for subwoofer and the 110Hz peak with Audyssey room correction for the main speakers. My sub crossover is at 40Hz. I only applied the Audyssey correction up to 150Hz ..that way it only tamed the 110Hz peak and left higher freqs intact.
I only have 2-5dB variation overall from 20-20kHz with a downwards slope aka "house curve" with REW when smoothing is 1/12 or less. No room acoustic panels yet, i have a "slap echo" behind the speakers around the corners that are bare concrete corners, that would be the next step. I use UMIK-1 + REW+MiniDSP+Denon Audyssey XT32
I am wondering if we can use Roon DSP settings to achieve a better bass response… will experiment cheers!
I hope your vision returns to normal. GIK may not RYC in the future.
Speaking of dynamic speakers. MoFi Sourcepoint 10!!
I just let most of your content flow over me because no two rooms - and very few rigs - are identical. If anything does freak me out, it's the thought of maintaining two spaces thousands of kilometres apart - I've lived out of a suitcase for anywhere from 3 to 18 months but that's not really the same thing. Good luck with the channel.
Hi John! Great reminder of DSP and it’s benefits. I have a small room where my listening position is sitting in a dead node of 60Hz and it’s driving me crazy. Would the dsp also help in this situation?
Yes. This amplifier has RoomPerfect which will correct all the issues at the listening position.
Lol i thought u lost your mind in that renters fog video however condensation can be hard on some electronics
You made me wonder. Would not the smaller lyngdorf offer the same performance though?
I have TDAI-1120 and I can assure you roomPerfect does the job. It has to, after all it is a newer device than TDAI-3400.
What is better?
Physical roomtreatment or dsp.
I would say it is possible to get better results with roomtreatment, but WAF goes to H*** though🙊
DSP, has become very good, and makes a huge difference when big basstraps is not an option.
(I really like dsp, to have diferent profiles for music, movies, poor recordings, low/ high volum etc)
I’ve got a nasty peak at 51Hz and then a dip at 71Hz. Bass traps did almost nothing. I’m using roon eq to fix it but I’d like to fix it also on my vinyl. I wonder If there is any good 31 band physical equalizer that wouldn’t degradate sound quality. From what I found Klark Teknik dn370 might be Ok
Those Klipsch speakers need a review ! they look like serious performers !
Hé John, how is the room correction from a amplifier compaired to that of an active speaker like the Dutch & Dutch you tested some time ago? Gr.Ruud
Hi John, DSP can't solve bass issues, it only can lower issues with it, as it can't lower reverberation but only the volume of specific frequencies. Thats a HUGE difference in sound. But nevertheless, as I've used Dirac and Room Perfect in the past but ended up with Antimode X2. I can strongly recommend to give it a try, the new algorithm of X4 and X2 is really really good.
Doesn’t klipsch explicitly state that the forte have to be up against the wall, not pulled out into the room like most speakers?
There's a $60 bass dsp that parts express sells. U put itn inline with the lpe and it pairs with an iPhone and auto corrects the bass.
Dear John. What about large rooms? I have my lisining room about 100 square meters and in certain places there are lack of bass. How to deal with "Room Modes"? Great video as always. Cheers.
Multi-sub is the only answer I'm afraid. 4 subs, one in every corner (or wall midpoint) should do it. You can google Todd Welti's research on the topic: "Low-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers" and "Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations".
@@eetu2532 Thanks for recommendation. :)
I use my tdai 1120 as a preamp and room perfect.
But if i had the 3400 i wouldn't. What is the reason for you to still use it as a preamp?
To be able to use Room Perfect while still using his preferable NAD amp?
In either case, i.e. using the 1120 or 3400 as a pre-amp, does that automatically mean that one uses the DAC of the Lyngdorf amp? or can this be bypassed? as I would like to use my own DAC and power amp and thus the Lyngdorf unit only for input selection and Room Perfect.
Erin at Erin's Audio Corner RUclips channel does frequency response measurements at different power outputs, in addition to the standard 1w, 2.8v, 1m. If the curves retain their shape at different volume levels, it means the speaker is "dynamic", iow, it has a high dynamic range and will sound "lively".
I don't know why no one else does these measurements.
lol...the Joke was on us... I can, See, you have great potential for "practical jokery" lol... keep it up.
Aesthetics and room practicalities aside, I suspect that the optimal way to manage bass optimization is to FIRST do the 'subwoofer crawl' to locate the best positioning of the sub(s) THEN run the room correction software. As I suspect that the less corrective action needed, the more effective room correction will be. After 50+ years in this hobby, the below applies;
Known by various names, the "project management triangle" posits "that there are three main factors in all decisions. You can have or control only two of them."
They are;
"FAST & CHEAP but it won’t be good quality
CHEAP & GOOD QUALITY, but it won’t be quick or on time
ON TIME and GOOD QUALITY but it cannot be CHEAP"
The subwoofer crawl is old school and time consuming + best with two people.
Room Correction is 'new school'
As nothing is perfect, I favor combining the best elements of both.
I was thinking of buying a minidsp with dirac, but seems quite complicated to setup, roomperfect looks much simpler to operate, hopefully Dirac will simplify there approach in the not to distant future. Another option would be to simply purchase a Schiit equalizer, all I need is to attenuate the bass on certain recordings, not all.
I guess I was ummm because the denneys of the world with the oil is very real.
To my Knowledge the mic should not point to the ceiling in the focus position with Lyngdorf amps.
So which direction? And why?
@@aayotechnologymicrophone should point towards the speakers. Why? Because diagram in Lyngdorf user manual says so.
Are you still planning a review of the Primaluna? I have two and I love them. I would like to see how you incorporate DSP into a system with an analog pre and power amp in your room (because that’s what I want to do next after watching all these videos!)
With tower speakers now available at
So room perfect needs a special microphone or any high quality one will do?
Their prodcuts all ship with a high quality MIC and stand to do the job.
9 grand for a digital amp?
I disagree on how you are representing the issue.
Acoustic treatment is the un-replaceable foundation for critical listening and room correction should be just the refinement of a pretty good baseline not the replacement.
I have been using for 20 years and with each audio room I had thru the years the very effective GIK products (not the most pleasing to the eye but you chose the ugliest combination) and most recently the much more pleasing Vicoustic for ceiling. The reality is that Room correction alone can’t come even close albeit it’s cheap and “invisible”.
Would like to hear that m23 compared to tdai3400 that i have. Is it really that better ? 🤔
No. I had the M33(basicaly the same amp) and TDAI3400, in terms of power delivery I didn’t notice a diference, even at very loud volumes. The Nad was a little bit more “dry” sounding, a little more control in the bass section, all listening without any room correction.
Anyway Lyngdorf for me personaly is a better all in one device if I had to choose
This is so neat,but my stereo is the worse
Love your interior design in the Berlin apartment! Do you have any design inspirations?
Its pronounced Sue nyo.