I just have to point out how insane of a drummer Shawn is, he’s playing the type of complex nested rhythms that I’d normally have to out into Finale to know what they sound like.
Sometimes I struggle to hear the difference between some of the examples in his videos, like I get Drunk, that's a very noticeable janky beat, but like 5/16 or 6/16 my ears really can't notice the difference -- it's too high-res for me (I think Adam had a video about that phenomenon recently) The Black Page I can play well enough by feel, it'll sound OK, just don't ask me to count it out and play it as written 'cause my brain can't handle it. It helps that it's just a 4/4 base since I couldn't read the sheet anyways.
Yeah exatcly, it comes to a point that I second guess my decision to learn drums! I'll never be this advanced! Eh, screw it, it's fun anyway. I'm just going to rock out to some more SoaD and that's going to be great for me :P
One time he talked about shaving (for a Harry's ad) and it was not only interesting, but my whole family ended up buying Harry's stuff in subscription. So if he started selling those I would probably buy them too lol
As a drummer for the past 20 years, I can say that playing two different time signatures with the right and left side of your body is not normal, or easy. Quite the contrary, it's impossible for mortal drummers. I could probably replicate what he is doing after some practice, but being able to write a song with that in mind is very impressive.
I remember in one video of quintuplets they were talking about the J Dilla sloppy groove. Shawn went into so much depth and detail, I couldn't believe that there was an actual way of writing it down on sheet music. The knowledge, the ability and the musical understanding is beyond measure, he is really incredible.
@@skrounst most of us struggle just playing Bleed while Shawn is just grooving along with one body but with the capability and agility of two people, insanity!
Just wanted to say that it's very neat to hear that System of a Down inspired the same rhythmic curiosity in someone else-both Soil and Streamline were pretty eye-opening for me when I was younger.
That 5:(2:3) nested tuplet sounds really similar to the bolivian Huayno groove, traditionally written in 2/4 but usually played freely feeling it in this way. Oh god I love music
YEEES, pensé inmediatamente en ese mismo groove que se produce en el Huayno y en varios otros ritmos andinos. Suelo trabajar mucho con un programa de notación (Musescore) Y tratando de replicar ese groove dentro del programa no producía el mismo efecto. Y ahora que vi los ejemplos rítmicos en notación, suena tal cual!
@@javierbernal3403 sii Javi! En muchos ritmos latinos tenemos joyitas así, no te aburrís nunca jaja cuatrillos que no son simétricos, cosas en el medio que no son ni binario ni ternario, ritmos tradicionalmente escritos en 5/8 pero que a veces son más un 11/16 o algo flexible, etc etc Es tan rica y compleja que muchas veces puede no tener sentido anotar el groove exacto para no complejizar tanto la lectura de las partes y simplemente le pones "groove de huayno" y cada uno una lo que entiende. Eso sirve hasta que empezas a trabajar en producción y queres que el MIDI groovée 😅
Uff soy colombiano y sentí exactamente lo mismo con cosas que he escuchado pero realmente nunca tuve la oportunidad de encontrar esas canciones. Podrían compartir algunos ejemplos por fa?
@@diegosaenz4034 que interesante Diego! Si seguramente pueden encontrarse ritmos similares, recuerdas en qué ritmo colombiano lo escuchaste? Me interesaría revisarlo. Voy a tratar de buscar algún huayno con ese groove que digo. Latinoamérica es una sola, las fronteras son sólo líneas en los mapas
I just made a similar comment. Its seriously impressive. I said with practice I could replicated what he was doing, but the fact he wrote those beats just knowing he could do it is (as you said)... intimidating. Edit: Just to clarify I could replicate his hits, in no way could I count it, or have a grasp on the beat at all.
Your videos, in short, are the exact thing that will send budding musicians over the proverbial edge in years to come. You offer collegiate level information at the click of a finger, for free, and you put these concepts into arguably better practice and demonstration than any professor I've ever had the pleasure of taking a lecture from. Thank you for all that you do, you set the bar for RUclips Musicians.
I really appreciate being walked through this album like this. I've got a pretty untrained ear, so just being told what musical ideas are being explored really gives me a stronger base for directing my attention and lets me enjoy things that would ordinarily leave me lost.
This is a case study in how to self-promote in a humble and meaningful way. You make it clear that your intention is to promote your album, but it's also clear that your intention is to educate your audience and engage us in something that has implications well beyond your music. Love the video, and love the album!
A brain-breaking thing I LOVE: When I'm hearing a song a certain way - usually an intro of a new song I don't know well, and then the beat comes in and I realize the one-beat isn't where I thought it was or my brain heard the up-beat as the down-beat. I don't know if any songs do these beat-turnarounds on purpose or if it happens by accident depending on how the listener perceives the music, but it's as satisfying as when the twist is revealed in a suspenseful movie. Any thoughts or examples? Love your stuff!
ruclips.net/video/l-HAj-RYhVk/видео.html this song is the best example of that I can think of. Heard it a million times and totally understand it when it gets there, but to this day I have a hard time putting it in my head HOW it gets there 😂
Definitely recommend you check out this video on Radiohead's "Videotape" ruclips.net/video/p_IHotHxIl8/видео.html . It's definitely a mind fuck, especially when they're playing it live and the crowd is clapping on a different beat.
The absolute best example of this I've ever heard is Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except for Me and My Monkey because you aren't even thrown off by it at any point throughout the song, unless you're REALLLY trying to follow the beat. And when you follow the beat, you aren't thrown off until you get to the chorus, and then by the time you've realized that the beat shifts, they play a riff that switches between 3/4 and 4/4, and then FINALLY, at the start of the second verse, your brain hears where the beat actually is. Edit: if you're checking it out and can't figure out wtf is going on, the first chord of the song is on the and of 1.
Hey, Algorithm. Adam was talking about some music I like, and the video content was engaging and enjoyable. Please share this video with other people. Thanks, Blix
Got it! You have to watch this video on three different devices simultanously and set the playback speeds to 0.75 / 1.75 and 2.0 while listening to the album in reverse! That way everything you hear is 4/4 and becomes super-easy to understand.
This is how I feel about TOOL whenever I listen to them. My brain is fully aware that there is a lot of rhythmic complexity going on … but when I’m listening my body just “feels it” even if I’m not able to properly count it without actually looking at the music or a tab. I feel they’re one of the masters of doing crazy mathematical shenanigans without it feeling forced at all.
Congrats on the record! I usually listen to pop/rock/R&B/soul based music, where anything that goes into 5/4 or 7/8, or drops a beat, is out of the ordinary and requires extra concentration and application from me as a listener. You can imagine how much effort it's taking to get my head around stuff like this, but I'm enjoying expanding my horizons through your music 🙂
I'd be interested to listen to you and your band mates talk about the composition of this record. Curious to hear what bits are just ideas that materialized out of thin air, versus which bits are more of an exercise in and of themselves. Furthermore, I'd be interested on how you put all of those things together into a comprehensive and listenable package. The record is great by the way, keep up the good work. Challenging music feels more difficult to come by these days, and anything that can serve as a complex thought experiment is a welcome addition to the auditory library!
Thanks, I've been watching your videos for a while but this is one of my favorite in a while. I hadn't noticed the album drop and it's amazing. Seeing these behind-the-scenes breakdowns are absolutely fantastic. Please do more of this kind of stuff
I'm gonna take this opportunity of seeing no comments here yet to thank you, Adam, from the bottom of my failed-attempt-of-a-musician heart for your amazing content. I'm always looking forward to it to learn a lot of things, even though I will not apply them at all, since I barely play now. And I also love the fact that you've built a great community, not only of fans and viewers but also of fellow musician youtubers. Thanks, man. Greetings from Bogotá, Colombia.
@@pataki2666 I think I will choose to believe that even if the paychecks are not exactly rolling in right now in my art career. Hitler is an example of a failed artist though. So maybe until we either die or become genocidal dictators (as far as visual artists are concerned.)
I'm from from South India and our 'tapanguchi' music (very folk inspired) does 4 over 3 polyrhythms in the most incredibly organic way, you can almost pick what to vibe to depending on your mood at the time. It actually becomes harder to know what to pick when you start counting it and stop moving to it.
That thing you are describing having to do with "You see all these"... It lands on me like a thing I've heard players, and maybe singers do, that's kind of like "playing outside" but with rhythm. I mean John Coltrane would spew out a slew of notes, 19 in two beats for instance, but land on the downbeat. Which shows that he hadn't lost the grid, he was just playing with it. In some sense, when you do this with rhythm you are both asserting your independence and creativity and acknowledging the supremacy of the groove. Which is a great trip for the listener as well.
If you’re going to promote your new record, then this is absolutely the coolest way to do it. It’s, like, value-added advertising. It’s so cool to listen to musicians break down their own music. Please do more, even if it’s not just about the complicated theory aspects.
In a mini review of the album, I said to a friend “I’m sure there’s all kinds of polyrhythmic and nested tuplets going on, but honestly, they’re just REALLY cool and groovy songs, Sean and Adam are so good at making super complex stuff catchy and groovy, and that’s gonna be the reason why I listen to the record again”
@@bbbbbbb51 I kinda agree, but it does help to know that they're actually triggering a lot of the synths and stuff in real-time with the instruments. It shouldn't matter, but for some reason that knowledge does make it sound "more live" to me (even though objectively it's the same sound regardless of how it's produced).
8:17 Yeah, I flat-out can’t tell the difference between quintuplet swing and triplet swing. Unless every single subdivision is played so I can actually count them, they might as well be the same thing.
Interesting. To me it's kind of obvious, but I guess it's just experience and being able to count triplets at uptempos. I have more trouble with septuplets, but I guess it's just because I am not used to it.
3/5 is 0.6 while 2/3 is 0.6666.... Therefore, the triplet swing is 10% more swingy than the quintuplet swing. I think 10% longer swing is quite difficult to perceive and that is why those two swings sound almost the same
An interesting thing about Ives's use of poly(insert musical element here), but specifically PolyTonality, is that he was introduced to the concept by standing on a city street that happened to be between two different parading marching bands in his childhood, both playing in different keys. This could've inspired the polytempo in the Putnam piece.
In The Dark, the way Adam describes the quintuplet with a nested duple as being a "wonky triplet" if you were to slow that down you would not be far off from a Viennese Waltz.
it makes me really happy that adam is a SOAD fan. been listening to them since I was a kid, its nice to see someone treat them seriously on a musical level lol
The title sounded great to put on while washing dishes and learn something wacky. It mostly (entirely) went over my head but it was such a nicely put together series of concepts that I appreciate the effort I can see in the whole music *creation* scene. Good job!
As a choreographer during the 90s - late 2010s, people would ask me questions like how I come up with my ideas etc. From the time I started, I have always answered with the same answer; I don’t create the dance, the music (incl rhythms) tell me what moves need to come next. The music itself writes the dance. When choreographers let the music choreograph the dance, you end up with a piece that feels “right” to perform and is intuitive for the audience. The better the music, the better the dance. As I was listening to the snippets from your album, I started seeing / feeling some very raw, visceral choreography. If ever you find a choreographer in the states there who choreographs the same way, I think you would find that the dance you have choreographed when you composed the music is breathtaking.
Whats funny is that listening to him play the drums it sounds like he has no rhythm and doesnt know how to play, but on the contraire his timing and rhythm is so precise it superseded my perception of “being on time/proper rhythm” good job
@@connorbutton363 I would argue that it comes back to "repetition legitimizes." If he only played a line like that once, it may sound like he's just playing kinda sloppy, Drunk by Sungazer is a great example to look at. He doesn't, he plays the underlying rhythm *exactly* the same multiple times, which makes it sound as intentional as it is rather than sounding actually sloppy.
@@ossiehalvorson7702 I think it's also a case of exposure counting as repetition. If two people hear him play two beats of a quintuplet groove but one of them has decades of prog metal listening under their belt while the other only ever listens to AC/DC then the former will probably be more likely to immediately pick up what he's doing than the latter. This is probably especially true for other musicians, since on some level they're probably at least subconsciously subdividing the beat when listening to anything and will thus have an easier time not just noticing when something "weird" happens but also realizing what that weird thing was (Like the SOAD example at the start of the video, the 7/8 was very clear to me even though I haven't heard that song before because I've played and listened to so much 7/8 already, whereas I know if I had listened to it back as a teen it would have gone completely over my head like so many other songs from that era I've revisited to realize they had some odd meter stuff going on).
It's also an art to play where accuracy, even intended complex accuracy becomes completely irrelevant and you can play kind of a mess and it still excites. Would be an interesting approach to experiment with.
We performed Ives' 4th Symphony once. Five or six musical groups in a park, or something. Two conductors, with downbeats 1/16'th note apart, for starters. Not making any sense out of it, I decided to listen to a professional recording. Just as chaotic. I concluded that the only way to perform this piece successfully would be in the round, with the audience on the stage and the various subgroups of the orchestra strewn about the periphery. The unanswered question is whether Ives was a genius or just too clever by half.
Ives would probably approve of that presentation. One of the formative experiences frequently cited in Ives biographies was a childhood experience listening to two marching bands playing simultaneously. He also was taught to do things like singing in a different key from the accompaniment. Hard to believe he largely evaded notoriety and was much more well-known for his work as a life-insurance salesman.
Watching an Adam Neely video thoroughly for the first since my 1st year in a music program, and I can feel my tenacity and youth coursing back through my veins
A band that covers this subject perfectly and has a track released called "Perihelion," King Gizzard definitely deserves mention for metric modulation (Polygondwanaland is a must check-out for anyone into cool grooves and rhythms). Also, Crumbling Castle and maybe the other tracks have an attribution CC license, so that's cool for RUclipsrs I guess.
Shawn Crowder is certainly a talented and thought provoking drummer. I have skimmed through Perihelion but feel another in depth listen is required. Keep swingtupleting!
This was epic. And fun. And also - I love when well-educated musicians such as yourself promote the fact that theory is a tool, not the point. Its fun to make complex/complicated music, but if it has only theoretical merits chances are it just won't sound good. And when I'm listening to Sungazer, it feels like it's made to be listened to and experienced rather than understood. If that makes any sense 😅
I found your channel recently when intrigued by your 'best key change' video, and have been hooked ever since. I'm a musician but not a music theorist, so hearing this side and this depth of the art that I love is an amazing journey. As a bassist (BASS), I get a special joy from your love of the groove. Checking out Perihelion as we speak!
"If you squint… your ears you can, kind of, hear it as a triplet swing" Or, if you're old, you can ONLY hear it as a triplet swing, and think Adam and all the kids are making stuff up. It's OK, my dad could never make the switch from swing to bop. #old
I absolutely love all of Sungazer's music! This video helps to highlight the nuances of some rhythms in some songs I didn't notice and/or undervalued on the album. Great stuff!
I remember being dumbfounded in high school being introduced to Tool, trying to sort out the feel/body thing at different points and being very annoyed that mystifying the band took precedence over a more direct engagement with the musicians (generally speaking)... This approach sits really well with me- excited to dig into the record!
I find it a tad forced and quite pretentious, but it's not *obnoxious*, like Jacob Collier. Also, an artist who isn't pretentious to some degree isn't worth paying attention to.
@@FernieCanto You're last line is kinda confusing just like the concept of pretentiousness. Anyone who makes anything that isn't absolutely necessary to stay alive can be viewed as pretentious. So in a sense judging something as pretentious is itself quite pretentious since noone knows what the fuck we should really do with our time and who are you to tell if some artist who's making stuff that moves many people is pretentious or not. In short, you are just pretending to know and act as if your opinion on the matter was somehow more valuable than someone else's. You felt such a self-importance that you had to add it. Now apply this logic to my comment to pretend I'm even more pretentious and feel good about it. I'm not, I'm based and I know everything and only speak the truth without any kind of bias. If God was real she would tell me I did a good job in this thread of Pearson. Also music and the universe.
I listened through your album while vacuuming the day it came out. There's lots of fun for the nerds for sure, but less approachable than Zappa for most of my friends, so I really don't know who I could share this to.
I have a practical question. When recording these rhythms/poly tempos into a DAW how the hell do you organize that project and just curious how you are handling recording these.
section by section unless you want to create an absurdly high bpm where one measure has the same number of beats as the least common multiple of all your time signatures' denominators... and risk having the tab-to-transient type features just get super confused by everything unless you track with zero bleed? nah, section by section
If I was recording it, I'd do a scratch track live and then build a tempo map after the fact for layering on the other parts. Like Adam said, a lot of the weird rhythms work really well just playing by feel.
Actually a great question. A lot of DAWs don't support changes in time signature, and while most support changes in tempo, they're usually an absolute whore to set something up that doesn't just switch between half and double time and has multiple changes in tempo throughout the project. I'm curious how they've handled that as well.
@@ossiehalvorson7702 I don't know of any DAW that makes it difficult to change time signature, do you have some in mind ? Granted I haven't used many but it seems like it would be a total pain to have this possibility taken away
Before watching this video, Threshold was my favorite track on the album. Now I cannot stop listening to Macchina. It has such a unique yet driving "groove" and it will never get old to hear the drop with the open hi-hat. Props to Shawn Crowder and the rest of Sungazer!
Regarding the section of shifting gears, downshifting actually increases RPM, so the rhythm would be faster. Going from a faster tempo to slower would be the equivalent of upshifting.
@@khyrand downshifting and engine braking without throttle input still causes the engine to rev. The musical metaphor relates to the rhythm and sound of the engine. It's a rhythm at one tempo followed immediately by the same rhythm at a slower inferred tempo, e.g. an engine at 4000rpm followed immediately by the engine at 3000rpm. The velocity of the car does not change nor does the counting of the measure. This is an upshift.
@@Drew-nv1op you’re making a big, incorrect inference about the controlling metaphor, which is the vehicle, not its engine. 5:06 “at some point, THE CAR DOWNSHIFTS TO A SLOWER TEMPO…” The composer’s words. Thanks for a diverting argument on the internet.
When you slow down you shift the gears down to match your reduced speed and the revs drop.. Anyone who doesn't brake and shift gears down together needs another course of driving lessons 😃 of course I'm talking about manual gearboxes but the same thing happens in automatic cars.
What I loved about the album is that while I can tell that there are a lot of odd things happening, it's all tasteful and musical. It created the effect of strangeness and pleasantness at the same time. It's weird and cool and just sounds like music.
really liked the album; it'd be cool if for your next release you incorporated some John Zorn/Naked City style avant-garde/experimental jazz fusion/grind elements to add a bit of random insanity into the rhythmic insanity
This was me with the Section 5 guitar riff of Periphery's Icarus Lives. Learning it and playing it to speed for the first time was one of the best feelings, took me basically 3 straight days of practice.
Speech is such an interesting pandora's box for music, since everyone regularly engages in microtonality and complex tuplets on a daily basis without giving it any thought. Obviously not having to reproduce the things you say helps a lot, similar to how it's easier to make random noise with an instrument than perform a composed piece even if the former is more "complex" than the latter in a theory analysis, but even if you were asked to nail the exact same cadence and pitches of a thing you've said (maybe you're an actor or just practicing for a big speech) it probably wouldn't be that difficult for most people to get very close. Spend enough time doing anything and you become a virtuoso, people obviously spend a lot of time talking. Anyway, this is already too rambly for something that's barely on topic but I guess the point to keep in mind that all of music theory is an arbitrary construct and everyone is effortlessly making sounds that are considered "extreme, complex and alienating" within that construct. There's no reason we can't expand our idea of typical music to include these things though and in reality it's a lot easier to do some of these things (not 90% of what Crowder does because he's absurd, but y'know, playing with simpler tuplet grooves) than many people seem to think when they first see all the big scary numbers. It would actually be really interesting to see the work of some self-taught musicians after they grow up with this all this great meme music, the coming generations might be wild in the best way.
dude its the exact same with physics. people think objects fall at a rate of 9.81 m/s^2, which is true, but not because we said it was, but because it already fell at that rate and we just found a way to like observe it but, like, with math. point is, just like music theory, physics is just our observations of the world and us trying to classify it in concrete terms. same with music, except at least our natural phenomenon is explainable with math, yall gotta deal with shit like psychology and vibes. math is to physics as vibes are to music
I grabbed the whole pot of coffee... I'm taking a break from learning a solo so... I've used 7/8 to 4/4 for a lot of transitions. It's so subtle and keeps the punch exactly where you want it to be. I love it.
I had his feeling of "knowing what to do with the body but can't explain with the brain" with the solo part of Cygnus....Vismund Cygnus by The Mars Volta. Now I can easily write down the rythm but at the time, I just "felt" how to play it
I just have to point out how insane of a drummer Shawn is, he’s playing the type of complex nested rhythms that I’d normally have to out into Finale to know what they sound like.
Yeah man, the dude's next-level
Sometimes I struggle to hear the difference between some of the examples in his videos, like I get Drunk, that's a very noticeable janky beat, but like 5/16 or 6/16 my ears really can't notice the difference -- it's too high-res for me (I think Adam had a video about that phenomenon recently)
The Black Page I can play well enough by feel, it'll sound OK, just don't ask me to count it out and play it as written 'cause my brain can't handle it. It helps that it's just a 4/4 base since I couldn't read the sheet anyways.
@@computer_toucher you can. You need to count
Yeah exatcly, it comes to a point that I second guess my decision to learn drums! I'll never be this advanced! Eh, screw it, it's fun anyway. I'm just going to rock out to some more SoaD and that's going to be great for me :P
Nice name
Adam could talk about ballpoint pens for 20 minutes straight and I'd listen to it.
He could probably play the lick on it too.
Ballpoint pens are already pretty interesting just by themselves though
One time he talked about shaving (for a Harry's ad) and it was not only interesting, but my whole family ended up buying Harry's stuff in subscription. So if he started selling those I would probably buy them too lol
Otto Frank wants to know your location
I hope he does this one day
As a drummer for the past 20 years, I can say that playing two different time signatures with the right and left side of your body is not normal, or easy. Quite the contrary, it's impossible for mortal drummers. I could probably replicate what he is doing after some practice, but being able to write a song with that in mind is very impressive.
Thanks for your insight.
@@GRAYgauss Just wanted to let people know that that guy is an actual TITAN of drumming.
I remember in one video of quintuplets they were talking about the J Dilla sloppy groove. Shawn went into so much depth and detail, I couldn't believe that there was an actual way of writing it down on sheet music. The knowledge, the ability and the musical understanding is beyond measure, he is really incredible.
Yeah he says it so casually but like I'd probably have to spend decades trying to play like that, dude's an insane drummer
@@skrounst most of us struggle just playing Bleed while Shawn is just grooving along with one body but with the capability and agility of two people, insanity!
Just wanted to say that it's very neat to hear that System of a Down inspired the same rhythmic curiosity in someone else-both Soil and Streamline were pretty eye-opening for me when I was younger.
Oh hi Hamish
Man Streamline is not talked about enough.
I thought I was the only one who could not for the life of me understand the rhythm for Streamline. I just kind of "feel it" as people like to say
Damn Streamline DID break my brain back in the days, younger me didn't understand why they weren't headbanging right on the chorus !
Fancy seeing you here
Shawn Croder's skill is beyond my understading, honestly.
Seriously. Dude pretty much plays two sets at once.
Woooah, opening with System of a Down!
Boring brain: *yeah, it's kinda cool that Peephole is in 12/8*
Adam galaxy brain: *SOIL IS 7/8+4/4*
Lol I was watching last night a video of yours that helped me unlock something that I was working til now. Thanks!!
I guess 12/8 implies compound time, which doesn't really line up with how it's played.
fun mathematically, but comes across as soulless noise
My fav is question!
I thought peephole was just 6/8 O_o
Shawn crowder is honestly a rhythmic god, beyond comprehension. Honestly just feel blessed to hear his ideas
That 5:(2:3) nested tuplet sounds really similar to the bolivian Huayno groove, traditionally written in 2/4 but usually played freely feeling it in this way. Oh god I love music
YEEES, pensé inmediatamente en ese mismo groove que se produce en el Huayno y en varios otros ritmos andinos. Suelo trabajar mucho con un programa de notación (Musescore) Y tratando de replicar ese groove dentro del programa no producía el mismo efecto. Y ahora que vi los ejemplos rítmicos en notación, suena tal cual!
@@javierbernal3403 sii Javi! En muchos ritmos latinos tenemos joyitas así, no te aburrís nunca jaja cuatrillos que no son simétricos, cosas en el medio que no son ni binario ni ternario, ritmos tradicionalmente escritos en 5/8 pero que a veces son más un 11/16 o algo flexible, etc etc
Es tan rica y compleja que muchas veces puede no tener sentido anotar el groove exacto para no complejizar tanto la lectura de las partes y simplemente le pones "groove de huayno" y cada uno una lo que entiende. Eso sirve hasta que empezas a trabajar en producción y queres que el MIDI groovée 😅
Uff soy colombiano y sentí exactamente lo mismo con cosas que he escuchado pero realmente nunca tuve la oportunidad de encontrar esas canciones. Podrían compartir algunos ejemplos por fa?
@@diegosaenz4034 que interesante Diego! Si seguramente pueden encontrarse ritmos similares, recuerdas en qué ritmo colombiano lo escuchaste? Me interesaría revisarlo. Voy a tratar de buscar algún huayno con ese groove que digo. Latinoamérica es una sola, las fronteras son sólo líneas en los mapas
As a drummer myself, watching Shawn play Machina is… _intimidating_
I just made a similar comment. Its seriously impressive. I said with practice I could replicated what he was doing, but the fact he wrote those beats just knowing he could do it is (as you said)... intimidating.
Edit: Just to clarify I could replicate his hits, in no way could I count it, or have a grasp on the beat at all.
“Something that breaks your brain, but your body feels inevitable” is an amazing and profound line. I’m going to repeat it
I think it could refer to rape
@@bedgegog lmaooo
Repetition legitimises
My favorite thing about music
@@bedgegog r/cursedcomments
Your videos, in short, are the exact thing that will send budding musicians over the proverbial edge in years to come. You offer collegiate level information at the click of a finger, for free, and you put these concepts into arguably better practice and demonstration than any professor I've ever had the pleasure of taking a lecture from. Thank you for all that you do, you set the bar for RUclips Musicians.
I really appreciate being walked through this album like this. I've got a pretty untrained ear, so just being told what musical ideas are being explored really gives me a stronger base for directing my attention and lets me enjoy things that would ordinarily leave me lost.
This is a case study in how to self-promote in a humble and meaningful way. You make it clear that your intention is to promote your album, but it's also clear that your intention is to educate your audience and engage us in something that has implications well beyond your music. Love the video, and love the album!
I think you worded this very well, and I agree his approach to the video is skillful and thoughtful
^^
Wanted to say this, but you already wrote it. Well, thank you 🙂
I thought the exact same thing. Adam’s a good dude.
This.
I LOVE that you said "squint your ears"
I use this all the time in rehearsals and listening sessions and always get weird looks from people
Bill Bruford was the master of doing this - taking a rhythm and then taking a polyrhythm of that as the new tempo... great video Adam & Shawn!
A brain-breaking thing I LOVE: When I'm hearing a song a certain way - usually an intro of a new song I don't know well, and then the beat comes in and I realize the one-beat isn't where I thought it was or my brain heard the up-beat as the down-beat. I don't know if any songs do these beat-turnarounds on purpose or if it happens by accident depending on how the listener perceives the music, but it's as satisfying as when the twist is revealed in a suspenseful movie. Any thoughts or examples? Love your stuff!
Maybe this song? ruclips.net/video/-cBPY0heKns/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/l-HAj-RYhVk/видео.html this song is the best example of that I can think of. Heard it a million times and totally understand it when it gets there, but to this day I have a hard time putting it in my head HOW it gets there 😂
Definitely recommend you check out this video on Radiohead's "Videotape" ruclips.net/video/p_IHotHxIl8/видео.html . It's definitely a mind fuck, especially when they're playing it live and the crowd is clapping on a different beat.
Happens repeatedly in System by Brotherly
The absolute best example of this I've ever heard is Everybody's Got Something to Hide Except for Me and My Monkey because you aren't even thrown off by it at any point throughout the song, unless you're REALLLY trying to follow the beat.
And when you follow the beat, you aren't thrown off until you get to the chorus, and then by the time you've realized that the beat shifts, they play a riff that switches between 3/4 and 4/4, and then FINALLY, at the start of the second verse, your brain hears where the beat actually is.
Edit: if you're checking it out and can't figure out wtf is going on, the first chord of the song is on the and of 1.
Shawn's ability to hit crazy drum beats transcends what my simple 4/4 mind can handle. How tf does the man do it.
"Rubato"
Experiment with Subdivisions, brother)
"Practice"
Feel~
Yeah, I’m gonna have to get out my Elektron Model Samples and do some “least common denominator” math with the pattern length.
Hey, Algorithm.
Adam was talking about some music I like, and the video content was engaging and enjoyable. Please share this video with other people.
Thanks, Blix
Every time I think I’m a decent drummer, Shawn makes sure to put me in my place lol. Insane talent.
I love this "behind the scenes" feel for Perihelion. I sincerely hope you make more stuff on your album!
Got it! You have to watch this video on three different devices simultanously and set the playback speeds to 0.75 / 1.75 and 2.0 while listening to the album in reverse! That way everything you hear is 4/4 and becomes super-easy to understand.
Best comment ever.
Starting the video on SOAD? You treat us too well Adam
The same. before that I have watching Dreaming vid.
This is how I feel about TOOL whenever I listen to them. My brain is fully aware that there is a lot of rhythmic complexity going on … but when I’m listening my body just “feels it” even if I’m not able to properly count it without actually looking at the music or a tab. I feel they’re one of the masters of doing crazy mathematical shenanigans without it feeling forced at all.
Congrats on the record! I usually listen to pop/rock/R&B/soul based music, where anything that goes into 5/4 or 7/8, or drops a beat, is out of the ordinary and requires extra concentration and application from me as a listener. You can imagine how much effort it's taking to get my head around stuff like this, but I'm enjoying expanding my horizons through your music 🙂
Sloppy Offbeats was my nickname in high school band
sweet mother of Jesus, the rhythms that Shawn is play is blowing my mind.
I crave for more Gnarly Grooves Adam, please make this a series.
Please don't stop talking about this! I've recently gotten very much into math rock and this helps with understanding a lot of songs!
I'd be interested to listen to you and your band mates talk about the composition of this record. Curious to hear what bits are just ideas that materialized out of thin air, versus which bits are more of an exercise in and of themselves. Furthermore, I'd be interested on how you put all of those things together into a comprehensive and listenable package. The record is great by the way, keep up the good work. Challenging music feels more difficult to come by these days, and anything that can serve as a complex thought experiment is a welcome addition to the auditory library!
agreed
How is what you’re asking for distinct from what is in the video?
edit: Asking sincerely & in good faith
absolutely this
+1
YASS!!! THIS!!! Upvote this... this needs to happen!
Adam, the SOAD fans aren't counting in alternating measures of 7/8 and 4/4 because they're lit as heck
Adam and Shawn being all articulate with stuff, and I'm over here with my drumline brain thinking "That sounded like a sloppy bockado"
Thanks, I've been watching your videos for a while but this is one of my favorite in a while. I hadn't noticed the album drop and it's amazing. Seeing these behind-the-scenes breakdowns are absolutely fantastic. Please do more of this kind of stuff
I'm gonna take this opportunity of seeing no comments here yet to thank you, Adam, from the bottom of my failed-attempt-of-a-musician heart for your amazing content. I'm always looking forward to it to learn a lot of things, even though I will not apply them at all, since I barely play now. And I also love the fact that you've built a great community, not only of fans and viewers but also of fellow musician youtubers. Thanks, man. Greetings from Bogotá, Colombia.
There were comments lmao
@@radicallybean you must be really fun at parties
never too late to learn to become a musician!!
We are not failed musicians until we die 💪
@@pataki2666 I think I will choose to believe that even if the paychecks are not exactly rolling in right now in my art career. Hitler is an example of a failed artist though. So maybe until we either die or become genocidal dictators (as far as visual artists are concerned.)
System of a down's first record is a masterpiece.
I have a CD of it. Can confirm it is a masterpiece
ARISE AS DID THE GODS NINTI
@@fruitylittlecritter nah I'd argue Hypnotis is
@@fruitylittlecritter fair point they did change a lot. Then in that case what about STA
True
Please make more records like that, Perihelion is so good and I am having so much of a blast listening to it !
I wish every band offered analysis videos with each new release. Goes as deep as you want with it, I'm here for it!
I'm from from South India and our 'tapanguchi' music (very folk inspired) does 4 over 3 polyrhythms in the most incredibly organic way, you can almost pick what to vibe to depending on your mood at the time. It actually becomes harder to know what to pick when you start counting it and stop moving to it.
That thing you are describing having to do with "You see all these"... It lands on me like a thing I've heard players, and maybe singers do, that's kind of like "playing outside" but with rhythm. I mean John Coltrane would spew out a slew of notes, 19 in two beats for instance, but land on the downbeat. Which shows that he hadn't lost the grid, he was just playing with it. In some sense, when you do this with rhythm you are both asserting your independence and creativity and acknowledging the supremacy of the groove. Which is a great trip for the listener as well.
Thank you for unpacking this dope music you've made! We can all appreciate it all the more!!
If you’re going to promote your new record, then this is absolutely the coolest way to do it. It’s, like, value-added advertising. It’s so cool to listen to musicians break down their own music. Please do more, even if it’s not just about the complicated theory aspects.
In a mini review of the album, I said to a friend “I’m sure there’s all kinds of polyrhythmic and nested tuplets going on, but honestly, they’re just REALLY cool and groovy songs, Sean and Adam are so good at making super complex stuff catchy and groovy, and that’s gonna be the reason why I listen to the record again”
I really love how Sungazer music feels, but it always ends up *sounding* too overproduced for my own taste.
@@bbbbbbb51 that’s fair! They seem to have a more maximalist than minimalist approach, but I like the maximalism!
@@bbbbbbb51 I kinda agree, but it does help to know that they're actually triggering a lot of the synths and stuff in real-time with the instruments. It shouldn't matter, but for some reason that knowledge does make it sound "more live" to me (even though objectively it's the same sound regardless of how it's produced).
@@TheSquareOnes Cool thought, I agreexD
8:17 Yeah, I flat-out can’t tell the difference between quintuplet swing and triplet swing. Unless every single subdivision is played so I can actually count them, they might as well be the same thing.
The beauty of context and musical interpretation
Interesting. To me it's kind of obvious, but I guess it's just experience and being able to count triplets at uptempos. I have more trouble with septuplets, but I guess it's just because I am not used to it.
Yeah me neither :'(
Weevil Bride by Rishloo is a song that really helped me distinguish the difference between triplets and quintuplets.
3/5 is 0.6 while 2/3 is 0.6666.... Therefore, the triplet swing is 10% more swingy than the quintuplet swing. I think 10% longer swing is quite difficult to perceive and that is why those two swings sound almost the same
I though I knew how to play the drums... but Shawn is incredibly good. That mastery of polyrythm is quite something.
An interesting thing about Ives's use of poly(insert musical element here), but specifically PolyTonality, is that he was introduced to the concept by standing on a city street that happened to be between two different parading marching bands in his childhood, both playing in different keys.
This could've inspired the polytempo in the Putnam piece.
Hey man, I was just about sleep and you're keeping me up
In The Dark, the way Adam describes the quintuplet with a nested duple as being a "wonky triplet" if you were to slow that down you would not be far off from a Viennese Waltz.
Perihelion is one of my favorite all time albums, and you guys are great live. Thanks!
it makes me really happy that adam is a SOAD fan. been listening to them since I was a kid, its nice to see someone treat them seriously on a musical level lol
Adam Neely X Thank You Scientist: the crossover of the century, big hype
It blows my mind how great of a drummer Shawn is. I am always impressed with musicians who can multi-task but he takes it to another level.
The title sounded great to put on while washing dishes and learn something wacky. It mostly (entirely) went over my head but it was such a nicely put together series of concepts that I appreciate the effort I can see in the whole music *creation* scene. Good job!
As a choreographer during the 90s - late 2010s, people would ask me questions like how I come up with my ideas etc. From the time I started, I have always answered with the same answer; I don’t create the dance, the music (incl rhythms) tell me what moves need to come next. The music itself writes the dance. When choreographers let the music choreograph the dance, you end up with a piece that feels “right” to perform and is intuitive for the audience. The better the music, the better the dance.
As I was listening to the snippets from your album, I started seeing / feeling some very raw, visceral choreography. If ever you find a choreographer in the states there who choreographs the same way, I think you would find that the dance you have choreographed when you composed the music is breathtaking.
Whats funny is that listening to him play the drums it sounds like he has no rhythm and doesnt know how to play, but on the contraire his timing and rhythm is so precise it superseded my perception of “being on time/proper rhythm” good job
even without the analysis view, he doesn't sound like he "has no rhythm"
@@connorbutton363 I would argue that it comes back to "repetition legitimizes." If he only played a line like that once, it may sound like he's just playing kinda sloppy, Drunk by Sungazer is a great example to look at. He doesn't, he plays the underlying rhythm *exactly* the same multiple times, which makes it sound as intentional as it is rather than sounding actually sloppy.
Yeah. That's just witchery, right there. Lol.
@@ossiehalvorson7702 I think it's also a case of exposure counting as repetition. If two people hear him play two beats of a quintuplet groove but one of them has decades of prog metal listening under their belt while the other only ever listens to AC/DC then the former will probably be more likely to immediately pick up what he's doing than the latter.
This is probably especially true for other musicians, since on some level they're probably at least subconsciously subdividing the beat when listening to anything and will thus have an easier time not just noticing when something "weird" happens but also realizing what that weird thing was (Like the SOAD example at the start of the video, the 7/8 was very clear to me even though I haven't heard that song before because I've played and listened to so much 7/8 already, whereas I know if I had listened to it back as a teen it would have gone completely over my head like so many other songs from that era I've revisited to realize they had some odd meter stuff going on).
It's also an art to play where accuracy, even intended complex accuracy becomes completely irrelevant and you can play kind of a mess and it still excites.
Would be an interesting approach to experiment with.
We performed Ives' 4th Symphony once. Five or six musical groups in a park, or something. Two conductors, with downbeats 1/16'th note apart, for starters. Not making any sense out of it, I decided to listen to a professional recording. Just as chaotic. I concluded that the only way to perform this piece successfully would be in the round, with the audience on the stage and the various subgroups of the orchestra strewn about the periphery. The unanswered question is whether Ives was a genius or just too clever by half.
Ives would probably approve of that presentation.
One of the formative experiences frequently cited in Ives biographies was a childhood experience listening to two marching bands playing simultaneously.
He also was taught to do things like singing in a different key from the accompaniment.
Hard to believe he largely evaded notoriety and was much more well-known for his work as a life-insurance salesman.
@@ItsMrBozToYou "stand up and use your ears like a man!"
"The unanswered question." I see what you did there.
the inverted lick really got me :D
great video all around, loving the new album!
Watching an Adam Neely video thoroughly for the first since my 1st year in a music program, and I can feel my tenacity and youth coursing back through my veins
The craziest thing is that I was listening to this song over and over these days, and out of nowhere Adam neely puts up an analysis of it kkkkkkkkk
Adam should collaborate with sungazer
*Laughs in brazilian*
A band that covers this subject perfectly and has a track released called "Perihelion," King Gizzard definitely deserves mention for metric modulation (Polygondwanaland is a must check-out for anyone into cool grooves and rhythms). Also, Crumbling Castle and maybe the other tracks have an attribution CC license, so that's cool for RUclipsrs I guess.
Could you explain more about how Perihelion experiments with metric modulation? I never realized
@@lonelittlejerry917 it's just a vague bridge, I didn't mention it as an example per se
Adam, can you tackle the groove in Zeppelin’s Black Dog? How they played it in unison still eludes me.
Awesome video, excited to listen to the album!
"Different Trains" by Steve Reich is a must for anyone interested in speech-based melodies and rhythms. Listen to it and you'll understand.
Reich is a must for mind-melting rhythms period!
And also his earliest phasing pieces for tape! Peace.
I heard that piece 10 years ago, and I still haven't made peace with it yet. It continues to challenge my conception of music, and just what music is.
I agree, as I was listening to this, I thought, "This is Piano Phase (or any of Reich's phasing music) mixed with Different Trains."
This is so above and beyond my comprehension and I’m fixated. I absolutely love this.
Shawn Crowder is certainly a talented and thought provoking drummer. I have skimmed through Perihelion but feel another in depth listen is required. Keep swingtupleting!
adam just bringing out my fav soad song?
watching it on my birthday?
it's a whole new feeling
This was epic. And fun. And also - I love when well-educated musicians such as yourself promote the fact that theory is a tool, not the point. Its fun to make complex/complicated music, but if it has only theoretical merits chances are it just won't sound good. And when I'm listening to Sungazer, it feels like it's made to be listened to and experienced rather than understood. If that makes any sense 😅
I found your channel recently when intrigued by your 'best key change' video, and have been hooked ever since. I'm a musician but not a music theorist, so hearing this side and this depth of the art that I love is an amazing journey. As a bassist (BASS), I get a special joy from your love of the groove. Checking out Perihelion as we speak!
Amazing album Adam! Congratulations!
yes!! please make more of these deconstructions. to me it really adds to the music, when i understand what's going on. Love the record
Perihelion is a freakin amazing album!
I’ve literally had it on repeat for the past few days
it’s so wonderful.
"If you squint… your ears you can, kind of, hear it as a triplet swing"
Or, if you're old, you can ONLY hear it as a triplet swing, and think Adam and all the kids are making stuff up. It's OK, my dad could never make the switch from swing to bop. #old
I loooove your new album and i love these grooves. You are destined for greatness and i honestly think you are a jazz revolutionary
I absolutely love all of Sungazer's music! This video helps to highlight the nuances of some rhythms in some songs I didn't notice and/or undervalued on the album. Great stuff!
I remember being dumbfounded in high school being introduced to Tool, trying to sort out the feel/body thing at different points and being very annoyed that mystifying the band took precedence over a more direct engagement with the musicians (generally speaking)... This approach sits really well with me- excited to dig into the record!
Sungazer is one of the only bands I have found that make music centered around hyper-complexity that doesn’t feel forced or pretentious
It does feel a bit forced and pretentious, but I still love it.
I find it a tad forced and quite pretentious, but it's not *obnoxious*, like Jacob Collier.
Also, an artist who isn't pretentious to some degree isn't worth paying attention to.
@@FernieCanto You're last line is kinda confusing just like the concept of pretentiousness. Anyone who makes anything that isn't absolutely necessary to stay alive can be viewed as pretentious. So in a sense judging something as pretentious is itself quite pretentious since noone knows what the fuck we should really do with our time and who are you to tell if some artist who's making stuff that moves many people is pretentious or not. In short, you are just pretending to know and act as if your opinion on the matter was somehow more valuable than someone else's. You felt such a self-importance that you had to add it.
Now apply this logic to my comment to pretend I'm even more pretentious and feel good about it. I'm not, I'm based and I know everything and only speak the truth without any kind of bias. If God was real she would tell me I did a good job in this thread of Pearson. Also music and the universe.
It’s not exactly the same but check out varra ep by varra
@@terryriley6410 I love this comment! XD
Man, insane video, thanks for introducing me this album and these concepts.
I listened through your album while vacuuming the day it came out. There's lots of fun for the nerds for sure, but less approachable than Zappa for most of my friends, so I really don't know who I could share this to.
can I just say Shawn Crowder is a ridiculously good drummer for being able to mesh multiple tempos and rhythms and not mess up
I have a practical question. When recording these rhythms/poly tempos into a DAW how the hell do you organize that project and just curious how you are handling recording these.
section by section unless you want to create an absurdly high bpm where one measure has the same number of beats as the least common multiple of all your time signatures' denominators... and risk having the tab-to-transient type features just get super confused by everything unless you track with zero bleed? nah, section by section
If I was recording it, I'd do a scratch track live and then build a tempo map after the fact for layering on the other parts. Like Adam said, a lot of the weird rhythms work really well just playing by feel.
Actually a great question. A lot of DAWs don't support changes in time signature, and while most support changes in tempo, they're usually an absolute whore to set something up that doesn't just switch between half and double time and has multiple changes in tempo throughout the project. I'm curious how they've handled that as well.
Just record like they used to back in the day!
@@ossiehalvorson7702 I don't know of any DAW that makes it difficult to change time signature, do you have some in mind ? Granted I haven't used many but it seems like it would be a total pain to have this possibility taken away
I love that I've watched this as a jazz noob and am able to watch these a little later and am getting more from it now because I get more of it.
Before watching this video, Threshold was my favorite track on the album. Now I cannot stop listening to Macchina. It has such a unique yet driving "groove" and it will never get old to hear the drop with the open hi-hat. Props to Shawn Crowder and the rest of Sungazer!
Regarding the section of shifting gears, downshifting actually increases RPM, so the rhythm would be faster. Going from a faster tempo to slower would be the equivalent of upshifting.
Downshifting increases engine braking, so the vehicle’s velocity decreases (in the absence of throttle input) even though engine speed increases.
@@khyrand downshifting and engine braking without throttle input still causes the engine to rev. The musical metaphor relates to the rhythm and sound of the engine. It's a rhythm at one tempo followed immediately by the same rhythm at a slower inferred tempo, e.g. an engine at 4000rpm followed immediately by the engine at 3000rpm. The velocity of the car does not change nor does the counting of the measure. This is an upshift.
@@Drew-nv1op you’re making a big, incorrect inference about the controlling metaphor, which is the vehicle, not its engine. 5:06 “at some point, THE CAR DOWNSHIFTS TO A SLOWER TEMPO…” The composer’s words. Thanks for a diverting argument on the internet.
@@khyrand no worries, just a bit of fun.
When you slow down you shift the gears down to match your reduced speed and the revs drop.. Anyone who doesn't brake and shift gears down together needs another course of driving lessons 😃 of course I'm talking about manual gearboxes but the same thing happens in automatic cars.
What I loved about the album is that while I can tell that there are a lot of odd things happening, it's all tasteful and musical. It created the effect of strangeness and pleasantness at the same time. It's weird and cool and just sounds like music.
really liked the album; it'd be cool if for your next release you incorporated some John Zorn/Naked City style avant-garde/experimental jazz fusion/grind elements to add a bit of random insanity into the rhythmic insanity
Love Tom Monda and Thank You Scientist! Super awesome that you invited him to work on your album!
I’m just glad to see Dr. Evil getting an Ives orchestral conducting gig.
hahaha
Everything locks into the grid eventually, if your grid has enough subdivisions/resolution
This is amazing and mind blowing!
Love the video and definitely will listen your album
Perihelion has to be my favourite album of the last year, it is excellent. Bravo Adam and Shawn, Bravo!
This was me with the Section 5 guitar riff of Periphery's Icarus Lives. Learning it and playing it to speed for the first time was one of the best feelings, took me basically 3 straight days of practice.
Speech is such an interesting pandora's box for music, since everyone regularly engages in microtonality and complex tuplets on a daily basis without giving it any thought. Obviously not having to reproduce the things you say helps a lot, similar to how it's easier to make random noise with an instrument than perform a composed piece even if the former is more "complex" than the latter in a theory analysis, but even if you were asked to nail the exact same cadence and pitches of a thing you've said (maybe you're an actor or just practicing for a big speech) it probably wouldn't be that difficult for most people to get very close. Spend enough time doing anything and you become a virtuoso, people obviously spend a lot of time talking.
Anyway, this is already too rambly for something that's barely on topic but I guess the point to keep in mind that all of music theory is an arbitrary construct and everyone is effortlessly making sounds that are considered "extreme, complex and alienating" within that construct. There's no reason we can't expand our idea of typical music to include these things though and in reality it's a lot easier to do some of these things (not 90% of what Crowder does because he's absurd, but y'know, playing with simpler tuplet grooves) than many people seem to think when they first see all the big scary numbers. It would actually be really interesting to see the work of some self-taught musicians after they grow up with this all this great meme music, the coming generations might be wild in the best way.
David Bruce made a video about out-Zappa’ing Zappa, and he talks about that
dude its the exact same with physics. people think objects fall at a rate of 9.81 m/s^2, which is true, but not because we said it was, but because it already fell at that rate and we just found a way to like observe it but, like, with math. point is, just like music theory, physics is just our observations of the world and us trying to classify it in concrete terms. same with music, except at least our natural phenomenon is explainable with math, yall gotta deal with shit like psychology and vibes.
math is to physics as vibes are to music
congrats on the release!
I grabbed the whole pot of coffee... I'm taking a break from learning a solo so... I've used 7/8 to 4/4 for a lot of transitions. It's so subtle and keeps the punch exactly where you want it to be. I love it.
My cerebellum just cracked! Cheers Adam!!
I had his feeling of "knowing what to do with the body but can't explain with the brain" with the solo part of Cygnus....Vismund Cygnus by The Mars Volta.
Now I can easily write down the rythm but at the time, I just "felt" how to play it
Just an exceptional video with exceptional concepts and thoughtfulness!
So good Adam ! Thank you .
Now I want to create a route I can drive to mimic the tempo changes in Maccina
I literally started learning soil yesterday. Coincidence? Maybe, but I’m more likely to think Adam is watching me.
Grabbed the album from Bandcamp, great stuff Adam!
In the intro, and I’m so excited for this video because I love perihelion and I’ve been binging it on loop since it came out