The Truth About Upgrading Your Power Cables!
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Yes, you can hear a difference between power cables. From there, the discussion begins. And there's only one simple truth. Lou explains!
audiblelegance...
wireworldcable...
www.audioquest...
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#hifi #hifiaudio #audiophile #powercable #cables #powerconditioner #hifistereo #stereo #audioreview #hifirush #powercables
Show me data from a double blind listening test with at least 10 people and then show me the bench test results to show why it worked and I will buy the (name brand here)product.
And I understand your position as many hold the absolute same beliefs about all cables in general with small exceptions here and there. The purpose of the video was to introduce the elephant in the room and my take on them in general. We offer loaners to our local customers so they can judge for themselves. There is no rhyme or reason, to me, why I have heard differences but there does seem to be some consistencies within my store as to what goes with what. All of this sometimes goes right out the window when we introduce different environments much like the power factor at each location is different. That too, has proven to be interesting.
We ourselves, use a 10 KVA isolation transformer to our main listening rooms but still the replacement of the transformer out on the pole to a larger unit had greater effect. So, power can be a funny thing. Suffice it to say that the same power by all measurements to every home is not universal here in the States. I cannot speak for elsewhere and 50 hz systems as I have no experience with them.
Regardless, I do appreciate the comments like this and your taking the time to state a position. And that, sir, is what makes this a hobby.
No one cares if you buy the product or not. You need a lot more than 10 people to get valid double blind results. Small blind tests are only valid for the people taking the tests. Your ears, your system, your electricity, and your room are also big factors. Some one else's blind test is meaningless to you. You have to do your own.
I got fed up trying different power cables, decided to take them out of the system completely, now I get a completely silent background.
And that can happen too. Yes, power chords can make things worse. That is why we have loaner cables for our local market. If they are beneficial, fine, if not, fine too.
Thank you for taking the time to comment and add to the discussion. Please tell others about our site and maybe they will find some things useful to them amongst the 180 videos up with more to come.
I leave my power cables connected I just throw the breaker off 😅
I haven't gone crazy with power cords or speaker cables for that matter But I did buy my speaker cables and power cords from Pinetree Audio Very well made, very good price, and nice to look at
I've had MIT speaker cables the size of a garden hose in the past to my ears the Pinetree Audio speaker cables sound pretty darn nice
@@Jack96993 the funny thing about speaker cables is that there is a right fit like a shoe and then there are the rest that are not. Likewise, price is no guarantee of results if the shoe doesn't fit. That's where things start to get screwed up.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Please tell others about our channel and the other 180 plus videos. More are to come.
And whooooosh……
PLEASE "NOTE"
A power CHORD is made of two different notes. The number 5 is used to indicate a power chord because the chord contains the 1st (root) and 5th notes of a major scale. When written, the chord will have the number 5 next to the root note: To find a power chord, you'll need to know the notes of the scale it belongs to.
ON THE OTHER HAND:
A power CORD carries AC from the wall socket to the electrical appliance.
A music lover / audiophile might confuse the two...
🎶🎶😆🎶🎵
What a wonderful comment and I found it very amusing. Brilliant, actually. Thank you for putting much of what our industry claims to be in perspective. I really enjoyed it.
By the way, if those are Martin Logan CLS speakers, kudos. They were always one of my favorite speakers. Certainly not "perfect' but absolutely delightful to enjoy for what they did so well.
@@audibleeleganceinc
Thanks.
(British habit of correcting spelling;-)
The speakers in my thumbnail?Actually They're Magnepan LRS in custom oak frames. Rel subs.
(The box speakers are Rega Naos transmission line).
Best wishes
🎵🎶😊🎶🎵
@scottwheeler2679
I agree.
In this case:
It’s not the science of cables.
It’s the science of psychology.
Go and measure seriously and with a good scientific approach and you will find NO difference that would in any way impact the sound.
Power supplies have RF filters and in the transformer and/or capacitors more than enough energy reserve to compensate for whatever loss in AC cables.
And they are able to cut any garbage that comes into your house via the AC lines (with billions of garbage producing items on the hundreds of kilometers of power lines).
So the last few AC meters will make the difference? No!
Also an amp works with DC, so the AC component is gone at the amplification stages. No matter the design.
Professional power amps (live sound reinforcement / recording studios) do have 16 or even higher (20) Amp mains connectors and need a lot of current to produce, let’s say 10 kW @ 4 Ohms RMS. But this AC current is delivered at 100, 110 or 230 Volts AC (depending on where you live). So enough power.
Poorly designed power supplies have poor RF - and AC filtering and poor demping. But any normally priced (sub $ 1K) have a good PS nowadays.
IMHO it all comes down to psychology:
-Influencers say they hear it.
-No measurement facts to proof anything. -Buyers go for it.
-Because they believe in the BS.
-And most of them do not do any scientific research.
-Now they are biased.
-And pay $ 3.500 for an AC cable.
-They hook it up.
-And yes their minds hear the difference, but not their ears.
Why? Because they payed a lot of money and their deep conscious mind tells them they have been ripped off. But their subjective mind says they really hear the improvement, so the investment was well worth it and granted.
Let’s spread the word and make 5-star reviews.
It’s psychology.
Generally speaking:
The whole audiophile HiFi world is going way over the top and crazy.
It is a good, but not very polite and deceptive way to make money by letting people believe in a BS story. This is of all ages. Science versus believers.
But at the end it’s their choice to buy it.
Well, as for absurdly priced power chords, we do agree. Rather like the kings new clothes to me as well when that money spent elsewhere, even buying more music, makes better sense.
I take the position, with our loaner program for local customers that they can try them at home and judge for themselves. But, we live in a day and age that some believe they have a proper judgement and that they are entitled to enforce it upon others.
Heck, I have had people come into the store and say that all of it is nonsense and that Walmart stuff is just as good and sometimes you even get a light show with it.
@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for your honest answer.
Still you have convinced them to come to your store. And they are already biased by then.
A loner or not.
They make the effort to pick it up and install it.
So I genuinely wonder how many will return it, for other reasons than that they cannot afford it.
I hope someday you or someone else will be able to do some scientific testing. You don’t need an Audio Precision kit for that to show the data (it will help though 😁).
Even a good audio and/or RF spectrum analyzer will show you some astounding results.
So let’s agree to disagree.
Let the people judge themselves.
If they want to pay a shitload of money for an AC cable, be my guest and go ahead.
If that makes you happy, go for it.
But not my customers.
I like your remark about a light show. Hahahaha.
There’s a lot between a $ 0,50 AC power cable found in the gas station basket and a $ 3.500,00 one…
The real cheap and dodgy ones can cause havoc!
Power mistakes make lightshows!
I can confirm and saw that at poorly prepped and designed live events and festivals as a technician and technical producer.
Badaboem!
Have great day and lot’s of great listening hours.
I have a pair of Audience AU 24 SE (bought used) … blew away the stock cords! I guess u don’t believe in Synergistic Master fuses either!
Funny how some commentors have pillaged me for even bringing up the subject for which we have a loaner program to serve our local customers and then I see this. It's interesting how people perceive the same video completely opposite of each other. No offense taken, just interesting.
The point of my video is that they are out there and whether they do anything for you is a crap shoot. Synergistics, by the way, is an interesting company that has a long history of offering what many would say are fringe products many of which I have never heard and, therefore, in no place to judge. I have heard some of their demonstrations at shows.
In any event, thank you for taking the time to comment. Please tell others about the channel as there is likely something there amongst the other 180 videos they might find useful.
Ordinary, neophyte audiophiles, like the general public know nothing about the principles, or science of electron flow, and while it’s true a market has been created, sewing the seeds of anxiety and doubt of maximum system performance, folks will continue spending God-knows amounts on cables that should be vetted by The FTC, and Underwriter’s Laboratory to justify their other-worldly high price tags. Otherwise, maximum dynamic potential in Stereo Audio is simply reached by fully electronically crossovered Tri-Amplification which I have always championed for ever since I first experienced it in a metropolitan nightclub in December, 1981. It was phantasmagorically FABULOUS then, as it remains 43 years, since.🌹💎
Without question, electronic crossovers and bi or tri amplification is wonderful. We enjoyed it years ago with the Naim SBL speakers.
As for power chords, I do loan them out for local people to try and I make no prediction as to what they will or might here. They are on the market and they need to know something.
@@audibleeleganceinc
How importantly systems perform also has a lot to do with providing an environmental measure of optimum comfort conditions for which components can do their best. Fans, and powerfully, dehumidified AIR CONDITIONING can deliver y e a r s of spectacular performance satisfaction. And again, from personal experience, I heard a classical music terrestrial FM broadcast signal on a Linn Audio Kremlin Tuner in an audio dealer’s fully-grounded professionally installed, dedicated roof mounted antenna array that had me picking my face up off the floor! That full modulation quieting was so CD black, it was jarring, and arresting! This was late April 1994. He said many well made tuners respond to such investment, not just Linn. I know my eyes welled the day Linn stopped manufacturing them.🌹
The same can be said of Brinkmann, or TechDas phono performance, Klipschorn, Allison IC-20, Larsen Model 9, Richard Vandersteen’s Model 3A signature, and John Strohbeen’s OHM Walsh 5000’s
s p e a k e r Placement. Investments in optimization, I’ve found, pay off the most.🌹
@@DrNoahBoddy004 I think you are, in general, correct. There are many things that can be done and should be done before wandering down this sort of trail. I feel the same way about subwoofers. They are not the sundae but the cherry on top. Get the sundae right first.
Lou, I can't find the blog post on power cables. Can you provide a link. The most recent one from Juli 31 about 39 years with Naim Audio.
As my wife just received her 2nd heart transplant, I am really preoccupied with many other things right now and, unfortunately, really don't have the time to look around.
I have also moved numerous times since that era and you know, moving creates all sorts of havoc as to where something once was. Not sure where to even begin to look.
Please see the Audible Elegance Website, December 2022 blog. The Dark Art of Power Chords. I will also look for other items to look at as well.
@@audibleeleganceinc I've read through it and I can agree. One thing in it I don't understand is that a power cable should be shielded to prevent RF from emitting. 60 Hz (or 50 as here in Europe) is far from anything called RF (radio frequency).
@@Bipen2 yes, it is true. In many cases, hum is created by non shielded power chords near interconnects that lack sufficient shielding themselves. For years, Naim audio was very very careful about that keeping even the power supplies away from the rest of the system.
Glad you are clear that it is a crapshoot with cables. Also, as far as I know, many aftermarket cables are not UL/CE listed, so home/fire insurance-wise, I am SOL if things go wrong. -- Given the crapshoot nature, some guidance would be appreciated: Any components more likely to benefit from power cables? Any architecture better than others? Any that have never shown any subjective (mind you) improvements?. Maybe there is more on the blog, but I cannot find it either. I applaud you for the loner program, but just throwing things against the wall to see what sticks seems like an unprofitable approach. Certainly not encouraging.
Please see the Audible Elegance Website, December 2022 blog. The Dark Art of Power Chords. I will also look for other items to look at as well.
Thank you for your comment particularly about UL/CE listing. Interesting point. Then again, Home Depot and Lowes sell all sorts of supplies for the DIYer that would require a license to perform the work in most communities so that they meet code. So, I'll bet most homes are out of code anyway.
As for specifics, I am not here to provide a free University degree. I am trying to bring up a subject to get people to think about what they are doing. There are other channels where they go much deeper into such subjects like Paul Gowan over at this PS Audio site. Paul does a nice job.
Proof with formulas, it’s electricity in the end. Good luck for the ones hearing differences and good for the gigantic margin they take on these cables 😂😂
And that is why we have a loaner program for our local customers. If they feel it does improve performance, fine. If not, fine too. There are, of course, naysayers for nearly every aspect of audio equipment, CD vs LP, direct drive vs. belt, and the list goes on and no. There are even some that believe there are no difference between speakers, I have had those too. Or that only one brand of this or that can be the only product to buy. Heck, there are even those who believe that what you can purchase from Walmart is just as good.
Thank you for taking the time to comment and add to the discussion. Please tell others about our site and maybe they will find some things useful to them amongst the 180 videos up with more to come.
@@audibleeleganceinc hearing and testing in the own system is always a good idea…👍
Bunk, power chords are bunk - at least for me. I live in a suburban neighborhood, all of the electrical lines in my community are underground. In 29 years there's never been a power outage. All of this is to say that my house has "clean power". I consulted with the manufacturer of my integrated amplifier and they suggested I'd be better off spending my money on new music to listen to. Maybe it's a concern for some people. But I'm busy building the little Lego bridges to elevate my speaker cables. LOL
I had to smile at your comment because I delivered speakers to a customer who built speaker cable bridges out of wadded up sheets of paper. Now, what is interesting is that he was a person who tuned pianos, a subject I am intimately familiar with as an attorney for Baldwin Piano & Organ company. These are guys who make their living having everything in proper pitch, particularly key to key.
So, I never say impossible to ideas which is why we have a loaner program for local customers to try power chords. It is not my opinion that matters but their experience.
@@audibleeleganceinc Yes, with my father being an organist and piano major I am familiar with the tuning process. Are you suggesting this individual who was wadding paper bridges has more skilled, talented, or competent ears? LOL
@@zizendorf No, but that for whatever reason in his home he found it to be beneficial. For what reason I do not know but he obviously found it of sonic benefit. That or he didn't like to take out the trash.
@@audibleeleganceinc Well it’s not as if you didn’t already know this but, that’s just an example of confirmation bias. That’s where psychoacoustics comes into play.
@@zizendorf you can null test it and literally hear a difference though 🤔
When AES engineers and forum sites like ASR show factual videos and tests proving its all in the head and a waste of money, any store milking this crap loses credability. If your hearing differenmces great, but it simply shows how crap much of what you have is for the money.
If your system is not converting AC to DC properly and your hearing a difference and you have standard mains cable inside your walls, with the plugs and sockets all these cables use with all the fuses and their internal wire, well I suggest getting your mental health evaluated.
It isnt rocket science, its grounded solid factual engineering with regards to how electricity works, and anyone telling you a super fat cable going into a small plug contact from a standard wall outlet to an IEC on an equipment panel is simply lying, deluded, or wanting to milk morons for money.
No patience for this now. It is absurd. And lets remember, all that information and detail you imagine, it has to have been capured and recorded, if it is not on the recording it is placebo and psycho acoustical, IE imagined and made to believe.
And all that detail and information got on that recording with standard studio equipment with $4 mains cables with normal fuses plugged into normal outlets connected with $30 interconnects.
If your hearing massive differences, something is seriously wrong somewhere.
And, indeed, there are folks, such as yourself, that don't believe their is any difference between much at all. It can be turntables, cables, CD vs LP, and the list goes on. Each just as passionate as your own.
That is why I clearly stated that it is a try it and see approach and why we have loaner cables for our local market. I get a little annoyed when folks think I am pushing anything when I am not. I am, however, not pushing my opinion on them that it is not worth trying.
Thank you for taking the time to comment and add to the discussion. Please tell others about our site and maybe they will find some things useful to them amongst the 180 videos up with more to come.
@@audibleeleganceinc plus the fact that people quote confirmation bias, but conveniently ignore falsification bias. If your brain can convince you that you CAN hear a difference, then conversely it can also convince you that you CAN'T hear a difference.
@@audibleeleganceinc No. The fact is what your claiming is placebo, and what I stated was correct.
You have no idea what I use and have experience with. I believe plenty of items in the audio world can make a difference, but I also believe much of the cable and mains conditioning is foo and over decades much of what I stated in old forums has been proven correct.
You only have to look at many of the cable tests done by qualified engineers, such as ASR forums to see how much nonsense is in mains conditioners and cables.
Nothing wrong with shielded mains cables either, but again, cheap to make and buy. But rarely will a domestic set up need them.
Sound engineering works, but running super thick mains cables with double layers of nylon weave into massive plugs rated no different to an MKS out of Homebase is rather futile when its no different on a £40'000 lab test equipments measurements.
I think it's rather odd that 1.5m of power cable should make any difference if the kilometers of wiring, circuit breakers and whatnot before that are totally bog standard cheap home depot quality...
If you use a power conditioner, then all there is, is that power cable in the path to your equipment. You don't want it picking up any noise after you already conditioned the power. A good cable can also filter out noise.
@@Pete.across.the.street You are absolutely correct. That is why for years Bryston used power chords that were shielded. The notation on the chord itself is SJT. This reduces AC line interference (60 cycle hum) to the interconnects coming into the amplifier. Others have followed suit.
See my response to Pete. Your answer is incorrect at a basic level. SJT noted power chords are shielded against emitting a hum field common with AC. Bryston uses them
That is exactly why it makes a difference you answer your own question you need that quality wire design to make the difference in delivery to the equipments power supply,some cables do different things for the current delivery,there are many different designs and geometry configurations that affect the delivery of current which will effect playback,in my system I have gone through so many power cords for different pieces of equipment and I can tell you they have made such differences in sound,good luck with your system 😊
. We should be using power cords to length. So if I'm choosing new ones anyway, I might as well buy Copper. I like lots & lots of copper in my chain 👍.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Interesting as Nordost, for example, is very specific about the length. Never really understood that.
Absolute snakeoil like this is an absolute blight on the industry which should be engineering led with science and not complete crap. There isn't a single scientific basis for these claims.
"Absolute snakeoil like this is an absolute blight on the industry which should be engineering led with science and not complete crap. There isn't a single scientific basis for these claims."
Which quality power cords have you demoed, to make the conclusion that your wrote?
@@NoEgg4u I'm a qualified engineer. A demonstration isn't needed. No one has ever proven any objective difference due to any suitable power cable.
@@adprom "I'm a qualified engineer. A demonstration isn't needed. No one has ever proven any objective difference due to any suitable power cable."
Small world. I am a qualified engineer.
I would never drive a car that you engineered, and never took for a test drive.
I never used the adjective "qualified" to describe my engineering status. If I was not qualified, then I would not be an engineer.
Just like I never asked my doctor if he was a qualified doctor.
I suggest that you do a listening test, and then use your qualified engineering skills to figure out why a Shunyata Research Python power cord, connected to your CD player, results in better sonics from your stereo. Not imagined. Not a placebo effect. A clear enough difference that a person that is deaf in one ear can hear the difference.
Do the listening test. It will stop you from making silly comments, which is all-the-worse coming from a qualified engineer. Then figure out why such quality power cords are the real deal.
Do not make excuses to not do a free listening test.
@@NoEgg4u not with views like that you aren't.
@@adprom "not with views like that you aren't."
-- You are not a qualified engineer.
-- You are not an engineer.
-- You are not trustworthy.
-- You are an envy troll, making excuses why you refuse to do a free listening test.
Your opening comment was an indication that you are an "Everything I can't afford is snake oil" envy troll.
Your reply, where you gave yourself away with your "qualified engineer" lie, was telling.
Your final reply, where you blame someone else for refusing a free listening test, is conclusive.
You got exposed for spewing BS.
You have probably gotten away with it before. But in a public forum, for how long did you think no one would expose you?
Lou here is my technical 2 cents why sometimes the power cord works?
Short answer the small signal for audio operates in the millivolts and microamps so a 100 millivolt swing can change the sound on most circuits
Some of the Streamer, DAC circuits are sensitive to 10 millivolts.
That means noise floor can cover audio micro detail as my final augment if all is operating in tolerance a chord won't change one thing.
Well, it's certainly another explanation I have heard and just as valid. Many audio companies do not build their products with well regulated "stiff" power supplies opening up the opportunities for variations. Kudos for the thoughts
I just use thicker copper mains cables with better shielding than the typically supplied ones and call it good. I can see that higher conductance and resistance from RF could be a problem, so I attend to those with more reasonably priced cable. Beyond that,I don't know and aren't particularly concerned. The results have always been good going that route though and it feels sensible givennthe quality of power supplies in the best equipment ,with it doing most of the heavy lifting not to go crazy.
i use Cardas Cables. i _Love_ them.
Absolute nonsense!
That's why we let people try them with our loaner program for the local market. Over 40 years, I have heard the exact same comment applied to everything we sell and that Walmart is just as good.
So, I just tried to be honest about what I see and know or would you prefer that I deny people a choice for their consideration?
@@audibleeleganceinc I will lay odds that @studio6newquay never demoed any quality power cords, and yet he assertively proclaims "Absolute nonsense!".
@@NoEgg4u There are those who have told me that all of it is nonsense and that you get just a good of products from Walmart and you are a fool to spend any more than there. So, there is a group who has this type of view for any form of cable and you might as well know they exist.
These are the 2 main reasons power cords make a difference
1) They are lower impedance, when you lower the impedance you increase musicality, why as the lower impedance has a better formed AC sign wave meaning capacitors can recharge faster. Also the better formed sign wave helps reduce the noise floor. To benefit from the low-impedance the power cord must be connected to a low impedance mains block or the wall.
2) They are shielded, so less RFI gets into your components. The RFI comes from the AC mains, but also from other HiFi components. One way of thinking on this, is extending the RFI filtering of a components PSU into the actual cable. This RFI not only reduces sound quality on the analogue side, but it can also effect digital clocks causing jitter.
There is a 3rd reason also, they use better quality plugs that reduce distortion of the sound. Also the plating on the plugs can adjust the presentation, copper and gold give a warm presentation, silver and rhodium give a tighter more focused presentation. Finally the audiophile fuse used in power cords can improve the sound, as a fuse is a big bottle neck to the current. Also one power cord that suits say a DAC, will not suit a power-amp, so you have to try different combinations.
The problem is some audiophile mains cables are not that good, if someone tries one of these as their first cable they will be put off. The ones I use are Kimber Kable / Russ Andrews, the best being 12TC power versions, so 12 live and 12 neutral wires in a braid plus single earth, just like Kimber's speaker cable these are the real deal and make quite an improvement. I own in excess of 15 of these cables of various versions, and they are used across 2 audio systems. When you realise the benefit these make you can never go back to running the $5 stock power cords.
I have enjoyed your comment although I don't particularly subscribe to all of your theories but since most do not understand why they work, or even work at all, your observations are just as valid as all the others.
I too have found that if one power chord appears to improve the performance on one type of equipment that it does not mean it works on all and that's the bugger. That is why we have a loaner program for our local customers to try in their system at home without us hawking over them telling them what they are hearing. The power of suggestion is very powerful for anything. Try wine tasting for that experience.
I do, however, fully agree that shielding to a power chord, however achieved, is fairly consistent in results in a good way and for those who have to measure everything, it can be measured.
The one funny thing that no one has yet to comment on, to my surprise, is what happens to the power lead once it crosses over to the inside of the unit. As many now use an IEC female socket, that leaves the manufacturer free to choose whatever power lead inside of the product. Thus, some folks have gone to the length of direct wiring to an inside point. While I understand exactly what they are trying to achieve, and properly so, I personally do not recommend it for safety reasons as there is rarely a strain relief used to prevent a disaster.
Thank you for taking the time to comment and add to the discussion. Please tell others about our site and maybe they will find some things useful to them amongst the 180 videos up with more to come.
There is not any apparent reason why a power cord shoud change anything at all let alone improve a sound of a system. Seems like any cord with sufficient wire size would deliver needed power from an outlet. And low frequency 50/60 Hz high voltage supply currents can't be affected enough by any inductance, capacitance, dielectric absorption, RF interference or any other cable issues in order for that to be noticable.
Well, one upon everyone agrees is that it is better to have a shielded power chord. On some, those are marked with the letters SJT. Not all power chords are shielded. Beyond that, well, that's the point of the video.
Thank you for taking the time to comment and please let others know about this channel. I am sure there is something for everyone in the 183 other videos to enjoy.