Big colonies with no swarms update on my Demaree split
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- Опубликовано: 20 июн 2022
- A week ago I used the Demaree method on this colony. It has now gone from a decent sized colony starting to prepare to swarm to an even bigger colony which will not swarm (for a while at least!) This is step two to ensure its growth.
I did this Damaree control and the the second week I moved some brood frames up to the top again. the third week I went into the bottom box, took 2 frames of brood with queen out.That left approx 6 frames of solid brood. I put them in a box with 2 frames of honey shook a couple more frames of bees into it. I left them in the same yard but moved them away from the parent hives.
These made a split. this left the big colony with an opportunity to requeen its self, but also not haveing to feed a lot of larva after approx 10 days. all the bees could adapt into the field force and bring in alot of honey. I did this around the first week of August. The splits have grown into 2 deeps and the old hives (4 of them )were all successful at requeening. they all produced 3 supers of honey and as of today are 2 deep boxes strong, should be in good shape even for our Nebraska winters. If any of the hives had failed to requeen, I could have united them with one of the splits. Just an idea that worked well for me ----this year. We seem to have a honey flow going on yet with the sunflowers and goldenrod. The first time in a few years that it amounted to something.Good luck to everyone.
I think the way that this was also done is a new queen is created in top brood at end of the season old queen is killed and top brood plus honey brood and new queen is placed on top of bottom brood box. Honey suppers is harvest for the beekeeper. This way you can run a two queen colony. Hence perhaps the two qx.
I think the second qx is there only so you can make two queens with one excluder queens can still touch and kill each other.
wow....I love your Demaree method. I am using for chestnut honey. Thank you for two videos..
Great follow up video- thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for a great video. That colony really is looking good.
Thanks for watching!
Looks good Peter!
Thanks
Hoping that you Mind your back, you could bring a small table or stand into site to put heavy boxes on and to save your poor back. Great videos
Good tip!
Thank you so much
You're most welcome
Hopefully you're still checking this post; Method begs the question about the potential of laying workers up top, I assume when the bottom box with the queen fills with brood and you'll need to repeat this several times, risk of late season swarming. Isolation of the drones unless you have a top entrance. Thanks.
Not seen it happen, as young bees are down stairs once there is no brood upstairs....those young bees become field force.
They definitely in the cell building mode .. alot cells easy to get too on top like that . Looks like it's fixing to put on nice honey crop
YES much easier to maintain and trm queen cells.
Great info Peter. I’m going to try that next year. Should help control swarms
Absolutely, watch tomorrows video I put it to use again.
Great video but something I'm not understanding. So only issue I see is don't the 2 deeps up top become full of honey? Those are going to be a pain to deal with, am I missing something or do you just bite the bullet and deal with head height 80 pound boxes? What if you fed in the early season? Now you've got the potential of sugar honey in those 2 top boxes?
Yes they do become HEAVY honey supers!
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I like this thing you accomplished I like the other way also but you will have an even larger split your next time I would hope and a larger split could have more honey and it doesn't look like it had any problems I am glad I caught this something new to me I always helped my father and he has not been there for a good time and I am not 29 I am 76 in a few days
Happy Birthday!
I’ve never done a Demaree method and it seems very interesting! Why not put the brood box directly next/above the queen excluder … and then on the 7th day put them on the top as you did? Thus you wouldn’t have to worry about the bees creating square cells and going through the top box?
I believe it is because the aim is to draw house bees away from the brood rearing area where the queen is to reduce the urge to swarm.
i love this system
Me too I will do a lot more this year.
Thanks for the great video. Off topic question: What is the purpose of that foil bubble barrier on top with no bee space vs a vented top board? Is it because it is cold where you are at?
It’s cheap crown board , some use burlap sacks
Good vid. Subbed. Thanks.
Thanks for the sub!
Do you ever return the deeps to the lower position and keep supers on top?
No because they are full of honey, next step if the flow continued would be to do it again....but you could go back to double deep at any time
Thanks for the video. Do you not consider extracting honey from frames that have had brood to be a bit of a food safety risk?
Not if you are not using antibiotics/certain mite treatments
After all was said and done do you feel like you had a higher honey production because of the split or do you think that it was comparable to the traditional way just no swarming?
Yes more honey as I would have had to split or thin the hive to stop swarming, and much more than if they had swarmed.
What's the thinking behind leaving both of the old brood boxes at the top, why not move at least one of them back to form a double brood below the super again?
You will see in my videos about single brood chamber management....I am a fan...makes more honey, less mite treatment required etc... However now we are in the dearth I may change it back!
Hi Peter, My apiary is here in SE Ohio. I'm thinking about following your teaching/guidance regarding the Demaree Method. However, temperatures are still dropping into the 40's and high 30's at night. Are these cooler temps at night an issue? (My concern is the Queen getting too cold at night, not having enough house bees and foragers to cluster around he in cooler temps).
Secondly, I'm calling this a "pre-emptive" demaree split as my hive's are strong and robust, but have NOT, produced capped queen cells yet (I am starting to see the small queen cups with nothing in them)... your thoughts?
I am a novice beginning my 3rd year of beekeeping this April.
Many thx,
Dave from SE Ohio
The most important factor is that the colony's population is big already. If they are big and a honeyflow has started I think it can be done.
Thank you@@BeekeepingwithTheBeeWhisperer
Great follow up Peter! Thanks. So when you say you might put another super on I assume you are going to put another medium between the top 2 deeps?? So what are you going to do with the top 2 deeps that are filling with honey?? Do you extract the deep frames also, or leave them for Winter??
I will certainly extract them as for the super it depends when it goes on and how full the other supers are....anywhere will work.
I let the bees fill up deep boxes one time doing demaree . picking them up to harvest tore my shoulder out , i lost all my honey harvest and my other hives swarmed . Now i only make splits using this method. I’m to old to hump deep honey super.
So if you wanted to split hive and grow your own queen instead of buying one would you leave 1 queen cell and move it into a smaller nuclear with brood and bees yes I'm new bee to bee keeping hopefully they will make it through our cold winter in Northern canada
There are many approaches but if you want to increase you colony numbers make several nucs from the queen cells. Where you are I would have onframe with at least on queen cell plus at least one more frame of brood plus at least two more frames full of bees in EACH nuc. (they need time to grow so do not leave it to too late in the summer...late Spring would be best.
@Beekeeping with The Bee Whisperer thank you you have been the only person to reply to my question and I'm going to increase hive the way you said to do.thank you
Would the bees in the top box start laying eggs?
I thought in a Demaree you only put capped brood up and made certain there were no uncapped larvae or eggs up top specifically to prevent them from making new queen cells.
As I said in the video there are MANY permutations of how this can work. This is the way I am doing it and will do more often.
My mentor was a pollinator. He explained to draw as many bees up to the top box and get rid of the nurse bees to slow the swarming urge.
In the bottom box went only one frame with capped brood and the rest foundation. Some drawn if you have it. The idea is to keep the field force busy trying to re-build from a fake swarm. They are in overdrive to build comb and get the population back up to survive.
Nice method. Why not leave the old brood boxes just above the new bottom brood box and excluder so the bees realize they still have a queen and do not make so many queen cells. If a virgin does hatch the bees can maybe figure out whos the best mother. not sure why the old established brood boxes have to go all the way up top. Is there a specific reason for this. thx
I believe it is to separate the young bees from the queen (and her pheromones) sufficiently so that they feel she has gone and do not swarm in the short term. If they were close together this would not be the case and swarming might occure.
Why do the bees in the bottom brood chamber continue to move nectar into the supers, when obviously there is plenty of room in the new frames in the brood box, notwithstanding that the queen needs space to lay?
I assume because they realize that she has limited area to lay and honey gets moved out of the way as she demands more space.
I have a nuc. How long before I can try this method?
I would try when you have 2 deeps built and have your first honey super going on.
is there any benefit to using the crown boards sheets you are using over the regular wooden crown boards thanks
Pluses and minuses, it does not provide extra ventilation which may be an issue when temps and humidity rise but theydo the job of protecting the telescopic cover, and an extra barier from heat of the sun. Also makes a better seel to prevent robbing later.
Cheap too!
@@BeekeepingwithTheBeeWhisperer ok thank you what are they actually alled thanks
It’s called reflextech or double bubble. It’s a radiant barrier. You can pop a hole in top to allow for feeding and vent
Peter, why you did not put those two brood boxes right above the bottom one on excluder?
There are many variations to this method however its main purpose was to reduce the swarming urge....this is done by drawing young house bees up and AWAY from the area in which the queen is laying. Depopulating the brood nest....if the supers were just above the lowest chamber they would still be very close....I believe that is the theory.
@@BeekeepingwithTheBeeWhisperer in my experience bees do not sworm and do not make a qc if i move brood just above the excluder. I think when queen starts to make lots of larva it prevents swarming mood.
Also we jast shake the bees down with queen to the prepared box. It's fast and easy. Then after week we give a comb box above the excluder.
So, just so I understand, those queen cells were all made within the first few days of when you did the Demarre? Now that you’ve destroyed all queen cells what will stop the creation of laying workers?
Because the colony now has 1 brood chamber with a queennot two, one with and one without.
Could u use only one brood box on top instead of two?
There are many options...the principal is to depopulate the brood chamber and have the queen in an area with seemingly limitless brood laying space.
With two deep supers on top why not take the one and move it to another hive stand for increase. I understand your taking away population, but a nice way to stabilize back to two deeps
The principal is to have a very large field force relative to brood and nurse bees to make a lot of honey. Two smaller hives does not make what the one big one will do.
I just started my bees, what kind of suit do you use?
I now have tripple layered suits made for me and my store.
If you put the boxes directly on top of where the queen was, would they have smelled her pheromone and not made swarm cells?
Probably.
How much honey did you get from this Demaree split?
I average 100-125lbs on these Demaree split hives.
Hello Again Peter,
Regarding doing the demaree method do u think temp is an issue? We are still having Lo temps in the hi 30's to mid 40's however, the high temps will be in the high 50's to mid 60's
When the bottom brood box gets filled with larvae and capped brood with this cause a swarming urge?
It can so best not assume they are done and check brood area in 3-4 weeks.
could you make a split with the upper brood chamber/chambers?
Certainly, but that would defeat the purpose of trying to build up a strong honey making colony.
I don't understand what's wrong with keeping a queen in those frames since the older queen is far from those frames?
What if someone wants to keep those queens put each in new hive with a bunch of worker bees?
what if you missed a queen cup? a virgin queen would emerge and be above the queen excluder. then what happens?
It there was an upper entrance working properly then one of two things. 1 she may leave with a swarm or more likely 2 I would have a two queen hive but lots of brood in my honey!
@@BeekeepingwithTheBeeWhisperer interesting. so if the second scenario happens, would you have to kill one of the queens or would you keep a 2-queen colony?
hi! will you take a split off of them at any point in the season?
I did that early Spring. But they are a good resource to boost small hives!
Hola quiero hacer este metodo como lo inicio hablo español me ayudas
Is there ever problems with laying workers?
No there is still queen and brood pheramones sufficient to stop that
Can u just place those unwanted queen cells into a nuc for a split??
I would tend not to use emergency queen cells for new hives if I had the choice. They tend not to be the best fed young queens and are sometimes made from older larvae.
Wouldn’t it be ok to let the queen cells hatch and kill the old queen and have a young queen in the hive?
Not in my view. Emergency queen cells which is what they make upstairs can be very inferior queens. I would rather replace with a new mated queen or one of my own cells.
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Why not just delete the two small honey supers so they don't decide to make queen cells for the first week and than add them in when the egg stage is past?
I'm sure multiple ways will work....only scratching the surface.
You would still have to check it, still a good chance they would make emergency queen cells. Plus, I think the idea is that the queen is separated quite far from most of the brood so those young bees are separated from her too, suppressing the swarming instinct for a while.
Why are you destroying the queen cells?
I do not wish to breed from these bees, and they are emergency queen cells which are not the best.
@@BeekeepingwithTheBeeWhisperer Thank you, I am just getting started with bees so I have a long way to go.
When this video opened you were in front of 2 big colonies. one had 5 boxes (3+2). The other had 4 (2 big +2 supers).
I'm wondering... would it kill the colonies for them to have that many boxes on when you overwinter if the they are all full of honey, and have tight entrances?
I was asking this to try to figure out if pulling honey in spring instead of fall could work to improve overwintering numbers? But this depends on if you leave boxes on, and I'm not sure if that extra space would cause more harm by leaving them more food?
Thanks.
Colonies in this cold climate are better off with space sufficient to feed them through the whole Winter but little additional space which makes it very hard to heat (and therefore gets lots of condensation) I find that a double deep is perfectly sufficient for my Maine winter.
@@BeekeepingwithTheBeeWhisperer Thanks. looking forward to more of your videos also.
Did you notice the queen at 15:24 ?
Nice catch!!! far right:)
I did this Damaree control and the the second week I moved some brood frames up to the top again. the third week I went into the bottom box, took 2 frames of brood with queen out.That left approx 6 frames of solid brood. I put them in a box with 2 frames of honey shook a couple more frames of bees into it. I left them in the same yard but moved them away from the parent hives.
These made a split. this left the big colony with an opportunity to requeen its self, but also not haveing to feed a lot of larva after approx 10 days. all the bees could adapt into the field force and bring in alot of honey. I did this around the first week of August. The splits have grown into 2 deeps and the old hives (4 of them )were all successful at requeening. they all produced 3 supers of honey and as of today are 2 deep boxes strong, should be in good shape even for our Nebraska winters. If any of the hives had failed to requeen, I could have united them with one of the splits. Just an idea that worked well for me ----this year. We seem to have a honey flow going on yet with the sunflowers and goldenrod. The first time in a few years that it amounted to something.Good luck to everyone.
A wonderful example of how we can take advantage of this method as part of a management strategy! I may try that myself on a few hives!