How Good Are Monks Actually?
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- Опубликовано: 12 июл 2022
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There are a lot of classes in Dungeons & Dragons 5e, and everyone seems to agree Monks are the worst. But is that really true? How good are monks really?! This also functions as a great beginner's guide to Monks!
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Your distinctly forgetting that the damage monks deal compared to other martial characters is equal to or lower than that of other martial characters early game, and continues to fall behind into the late game. At level 5 a monk with +4 dex using a long sword can dish out 23 DPR using flurry of blows mean while a human fighter with XBE and sharpshooter can deal 22.8 DPR without spending any resources. Monks do have the benefit of getting significantly stronger when multiclassing, but that means you have even less Ki points to spend.
I personally fix the monks abilities in a few ways. First, I give monks the ability to add half their proficiency bonus rounded down to their attack and damage rolls with unarmed, and melee monk weapons. Second, I give them the ability to make martial arts, and flurry of blows attacks with monk weapons. Third, I give them additional Ki points equal to their wisdom modifier giving them that little bump they need early level to do what they want. This brings their damage in line with the other classes without needing to spend ki points with heighted damage output when spending ki points both early and late game. Additionally, this opens them up for multiclassing much more readily due to their increased ki point pool.
The Stunned condition doesn't block bonus actions.
Why do I feel like you just wanted an excuse to eat a whole bag of M-n-M's? XD
@@raina8334 because he did
I feel like a Martial class should be able to do consistant damage without spending too many resources. Ki runs out too fast and a monk without Ki simply isnt good
But Ki comes back during a Short Rest, Monks are kind of like Warlocks in that regard.
@@schwarzerritter5724 Yeah Monks are basically the Warlocks of the martial class.
They are flexible and can do a lot of things decently, but arent especially good at any one single thing.
Warlocks have similar problems because of their low amount of resources while still technically being casters.
Only to a much lesser degree because they are casters and casters are all inherently OP compared to martial classes.
@@MegaHuntress Warlocks also have the same exact hit die with having 120 feet of range, and a *much* better damage type :P
@@MegaHuntress yes but warlocks get access to the best damage cantrip in the game and get many many options to customize it and make it even better, not to mention that unlike the warlock which gets incredibly great and interesting abilities. I think that despite the communities uproar, that they think that the monk is super powerful so they're going to give them awful subclasses, because they are, they're all terrible. And I hate it.
Monks are one of my favorite classes - maybe even _the_ favorite - but they've never struck me as a "martial class". Not more so than a rogue or a bard, at least.
To me, it's obvious that the monk is specifically geared towards kiting enemies and interacting with the battlefield, not towards combat. Their role is to pinpoint the low-constitution target (like an enemy spellcaster) and use the paths where the enemy cannot follow them. For this, they have increased mobility _(including jumping over hazardous terrain),_ reduced falling damage, and easy access to dash, disadvantage and dodge. For taking ranged damage, they can soak some or all of it with a reaction.
Sure, you could argue that monks suck when the arena is just a big open field, but to me that's like saying that spellcasters suck within an antimagic field. Duh.
Additionally, while a monk has more limited access to gear, they also have to rely on it far less. If a fight takes place in a "royal ball" type event where weapons aren't allowed, a monk is instantly ready to go.
Personally, I don't think a monk is particularly weak. But, if you want to play a Fighter, you should probably pick Fighter, instead.
There’s something you forgot… rolling up to a dragon and punching it, and having that actually WORK is totally badass
Being swallowed and then landing all of the stunning strikes... from inside.
also makes 0 sense but ok
@@filiptrajkovski2198 neither hiting a dragon with a sword
@@jaon9302 what the fuck else are you supposed to hit it then other than a really really big hammer
@@filiptrajkovski2198 i think if you really want to be realisic using siege weapons would be your best option melee weapons not a good idea
Monks should really have a built in way to naturally get back some of their Ki points during combat. Like, successfully hitting with three attacks in a row or getting a natural 20 return a Ki point. Maybe they can even meditate for a minute out of combat and roll a die (maybe d4) to return a number of Ki equal to the result. These types of bonuses reward epic moments even further and add flavor to the class.
Just saw your comment after my suggestion which is getting Ki points back if critical hitting
What if you can just use a turn per ki point in combat or maybe one per two turns? Maybe every two attack actions that way you can still move. I was thinking about it while making one a week ago 😂 the ki points thing is tough.
You uhhh, just described the pathfinder swashbuckler and gunslinger classes. They have a very limited resource pool but it comes back under certain conditions (or the rest at the end of the day).
The issue with this for monks in 5e is, as stated in the video, eventually ki stops being an issue so the ability to get it back mid-combat when it already is a non issue would be overpowered, it would make them able to spam their multiple ki cost abilities instead of just their single point abilities.
@@ShiningDarknes While I agree that you wouldn’t want to implement a system without tweaking anything, the assumption would be that they would balance the class around the ability to get back more points. Probably like how those classes you mentioned are designed. If instead of having enough Ki points being a non-problem at higher levels, players should be able to consistently go back and forth with them. At times feeling like they have an adundance and at other times having to resource manage. Instead of them giving you more points at higher levels, they could make your points have more value.
@@Bubblenuts13 The way Panache and Grit work is you never really get more other than from ability score increase, but it is relatively easy to recover them in combat. If the Monk simply regained 1 ki from a crit or killing blow in addition to restoring on short rest the problem would disappear. As long as you change it to something like 2+WIS mod and then it doesn't go up since if it still was equal to level you would have way too much at higher levels.
Admittedly it makes it a far more potent 1 or 2 level dip but I would rather that to their current state.
Since most of our games only go to level 10, we just gave the monk TWICE the normal amount of ki points each level and it made everybody happy.
Honestly I would be happy with just making the movement abilities and tossing back projectiles free. Those really shouldn't cost anything when fucking slow fall is free (as long as your reaction is available). Oh yeah I can just fall from 200ft up and be fine but moving twice, being agile, and jumping high are outside of my ability to do when out of ki yeah ok.
Stunning Strike would be broken…if it ever worked. My monk has thrown this in the double digits, and it’s never landed.
Check out the Belt of Dragonhide! All monks should have one, as high a rarity as you can get, that’ll help a lot!
I allow my players to where if they crit with a melee strike, they can use the stunning strike for free and give the target disadvantage on the save. I also never have my party facing just 1 or 2 enemies, so there is always a lot of enemies so taking one out of the fight for a turn has never been an issue, even if it is the big bad of the fight. Always just makes the player feel good for landing it. I suggest more dms allow this for monks.
@@DnDShorts thanks!
@@DnDShorts Abilities that rely on magical resources aren't well balanced: if your ability to help the team relies on the dm being gracious and giving you the ability to get an item, then it's not too great
Quite the opposite for me. When I was playing a monk, it seemed to hit all the time. Just unlucky rolls for the DM, I guess?
I managed to punch a dragon out of the sky with a Stunning Strike, so I'm a little biased for it.
Another thing that I think monks have a bad reep for is that their subclasses sometimes take away from the main class.
oh yeah some subclasses for monk are straight up garbage lol. And since they get tier changing boons from their subclasses (lv11 and lv17), that can make some subclasses really bad past those levels.
@@APerson-ws4cw Even the things that we really wanted out of a monk subclass. Dragon monks, drunken Masters, Elemental Masters etc. Those abilities take away from your Ki points That can be used for your better main abilities.
Exactly my thoughts, many subclass features are lacklustered and don't even fit in their subclass.
Every class has tradeoff resources and subclasses.
You just learn moderation and you are fine.
As someone who is playing an ascendant dragon monk, it should have been the “charisma subclass”, but it does scale at late levels so I guess it compliments the late game monk
One of the things that we did with monks at our table is changing their level 20 feature from regaining 4 ki points per encounter to never being able to drop below 1 ki point. This means that the features that use large amounts of ki you want to use first because you'll always have access to the 1 ki features no matter how low your ki gets.
Exactly. Monks need a sort of cantrip that’ll keep them viable. Playing monk is like playing mage with a spiky staff and no cantrips
This is still not good enough for level 20 when compared to other classes lol
Oooooo i like it. Name it reincarnation
@@thewrustywrench21 In a vacuum you're not wrong, but all the homebrew monk classes in our game have other things at 20 that make it much better and keep them competitive when compared to the other classes. Also having what is essentially two free attacks as a bonus action every turn always once you hit 20 is not to be scoffed at, haha.
@@thewrustywrench21 I mean... infinite stunning strikes and flurries is pretty powerful. Even at later levels with a lot of ki you still have to be a bit conservative in longer fights.
To the "monk bad" situation also comes that several of the monks subclasses take away from the basic monk abilities while also demanding the use of Ki.
monk is objectively bad people who try to dissuade criticism by saying that, are idiots.
Yeah, monk has a pretty bad base class chassis and the way of mercy is the only real decent subclass, and by that I mean it’s at least playable. It needs the revised ranger treatment.
@@recursiveslacker7730 shadow monk also decent, since it has Pass without Trace. early on the two ki points is a bit much, but by even fifth level it super nice.
When you hear some of the interviews to Jeremy Crawdford he mentions that on play testing people said they didn't like the monk being equally powerful as a fighter and martial classes, so logically they made this class weaker. So in summary if you want a great game, help with play testing and surveys.
Now im wondering how the monks were originally designed
The people who were playtesting it were seriously stupid in that case lol.
They... didn't like that monk could KEEP UP with the rest of the martial classes? Seriously? Isn't that kind of the whole damn point, to make sure all the classes can keep up with each other?
@@caiusdrakegaming8087 ikr
@@caiusdrakegaming8087 yes and no, people felt they had more abilities and so they should have a cost. There were very few sub classes back then but the idea was if all a fighter did was fight they should be the best at it. What ruined it imo was people insisting on a really down to earth fighter, if people accepted that post level 5 all characters were super human monsters and let fighters do crazy things the monk could have their abilities and be just as strong as the fighter. As is with how the launch fighter was designed, the monk shouldn't of been as good in the thick of things, but they went way too far.
Why hate? Cuz despite their tremendous flavor, they don't get the tools they need for sustainable combat. Low Ki prevents them from using their high cost abilities to actually do what they need to do on the battlefield. It doesn't matter how strong their abilities are if you can only use them a few times before having to resort to simple punches.
My friend implemented a unique system. Characters can take 1 level of exhaustion to gain benefits granted by taking a short test. It lets classes like monk recharge ki points or some spellcasters regain spellslots mid-battle at a fair downside.
Do you think it would be broken to double the ki points? So instead of 3 you have 6.
@@thesongbird1679 Sounds like a massive cost to be honest
@@thesongbird1679 Did anyone bully your friend with celestial patron warlock yet?
@@WhyYouMadBoi greater restoration tho
It's fascinating to see how many Monk abilities are really just holdovers from 3.5. Timeless body was a big deal back then, because when you went up an Age Category, you got a small boost to your Mental abilities, but big reductions to your physical ones. If you got to Venerable (about 70 years old for a human), you were facing cumulative +3 to INT/WIS/CHA but -6 to STR/DEX/CON. Monks with TB would just pocket the stat boosts and keep on punching.
And yet they’re still ranking at tier 5 along with Fighter and Paladin…
@@justnoob8141 I mean, 5e monks are a substantial improvement over their 3.x iterations.
But yeah, in 3.x, the only thing worse than Monk is NPC classes and the Truenamer
I miss those things
@@MultiClassGeek I am still forever saddened that the Tome of Magic classes were so INCREDIBLY cool flavorwise and yet so utterly terrible as to be only playable if you don't care about being any good in combat. Though I guess binder wasn't awful? It's been way too long. Again, they sound and feel really awesome thematically.
i think that 3.5 think fits perfectly thematically with the monk. the idea of an old ancient wise martial artist who looks feeble but then still kicks you butt in every way.
The "never run out of ki points" thing never happens because enemies at higher levels have more hit points and therefore require more flurries of blows to kill. I really feel monks need either a second extra attack at level 10 or for the monk martial arts damage die to be one level higher (start at d6, go to d12 at higher level). Magic fistwraps/footwraps that increase accuracy and damage with unarmed strikes should be more common too since you can carry a magic monk weapon that only helps on the attack that uses your weapon, not the bonus unarmed attacks.
I love the flavor of the monk but I definitely agree they need magic wraps of some sort for extra damage. Been wanting to home brew something like that. Or even fisticuffs or something of that sort. But even then I think they need a much better subclass
The Insignia of Claws from Hoard of the Dragon Queen is an official item that gives a +1 to attack and damage with unarmed strikes and natural weapons.
I know it isn't exactly the same as what you're asking for, but the first game I ran I gave one of my players, who could turn into a werewolf, a necklace/ collar that gave +3 to his unarmed/ natural weapons.
I know it kinda sucks to say, but homebrew and reflavoring are free. If you've got a monk player, just give them magical handwraps that give the same effect as a magical weapon.
Monk Extra Attack should give them a third attack at level 11 like how Fighter Extra Attack does. It still wouldn't do much for the Monk at really high levels, but they would at least be on par with other classes until level 16 as opposed to only until level 10.
Most dnd fights end in 3-5 rounds regardless of level. So consider you use two ki points every round at level 10, you would never run out because by the time you did you could short rest before the next combat and get them all back
DND Shorts: "Stunning Strike is an absolutely busted ability"
Casters with the hold person spell: *Looking away nervously*
Banishemnt is also good.
@@delta4135 I love banishment 👾 Once I played a Homebrew Ravnica campaign where instead of the regular planar system, the planes were other worlds (like Theros and Ravenloft but with fae and cowboys), with the trip in-between being pretty close to the Astral Plane, so whenever my wizard banished enemies, they'd go wreak havoc in other worlds and still have the possibility of coming back later if there were a leak in the time space continuum. My wizard banished a Hydra once and it came back during the Boss Battle at the end of the campaign, it was rad as hell
@@dentistdamsel1345
xD What a story. Sh*t I would love to see your faces when that hydra said "Hello, we met again."
Casters can't cast hold person 4 times in a round though. What makes it busted is that you can say "They passed? what about this time? this time?" if you have a lot of short rests it can be killer. Even at later levels, a decently leveled monk can demolish legendary resistance before any of the casters can move.
@@maromania7
Stuning Strike.
Ability is mostly used to 3 things (bc its best for it):
- to get rid of 1 (2 at very very best) Sepllcaster(s)
- against big hard bosses (the higher level the more big hard bosses will have legendary res. so from 3 situations we are going to 2)
- to burn legendary ressistances (On low levels, 10th or lower. There is rearly, if any, boss with it so at most situations its 2 options)
Monks can't take out Ancient Red Dragons (22 CR) Legendary Ressistances. And its supposed to be your only job.
I did math but I really don't want to post it here. Too much writting.
But its something like this. Monks on 17-20th level (no magic items) had 50% to hit this dragon, and it had 10% of failing the save throw on Stunning Strike.
Monks have 20 ki point, 3 attacks not to use FoB bc you need it for Stunning Strikes. Bc of 50% hit chances you hit 2 attacks in a row and misses 2 attack in a row for easir graphic checks.
You do I when you hit and O when you missed a hit.
You count I until 10, the 10th is stun.
Even if we consider that First hit did stun the dragon.
In the end, after 13 rounds you would lack 1 ki to stun it.
*Why* dragon? Well its called Dungeon & Dragons.
And Spellcaster can't cast Hold person more then 4 times. Yes.
They can cast X other spells which can variates from categories:
Damage, Crowd control, Utility, Heals, Buffs, Debuffs and more.
Yes, Monks can keep *trying* to Stun. And they will do it, bc this is the best they can do, no options. (class)
Spellcasters can choose from well... everything on their disposal.
You can't compare class Ki-pool to Spell casters spell slots.
Bc that means you compare all monks class features that cost ki to all the spells
spellcaster can get. I mean you can do that and monks will lose dramatically in this comparison.
"a decently leveled monk can demolish legendary resistance before any of the casters can move." - yea *CAN* . Humans can win a lottery. How many did you won?
Calcualte yourself some enemies with legendary resistances. They would probably be a bosses so they CR would be probably at least +3 to your level.
Calculate chance to hit, then their chance to fail a save throw. Look how many rounds it will take you to burn their leg.res. How much ki you spent and ask yourself a question:
"Is this enemy will still be alive before I do my *only* job I am supposed to be good at".
I love monks, but they are mechanically inferior to the other classes. I recommend treantmonk's discussion on the issue where he literally does the math. They're not "bad" because being mechanically strong isn't the same as being "good.". They're "good" because they're fun, but they're mechanically weak.
Treantmonk also does an interesting video on how to make a monk more mechanically strong, but does so by causing some monk abilities to become inactive by using heavy armor and heavy weapons. Is it still a monk at that point, tho?
I mean he at least try something. Not like wizzards, that had over years time to work on that and just copypaced and last second deside monk needs to have one attack less then previous edition, without any reason or tests.
What if they could fly for a few ki points
@@happy911 he also has a class redesign for monks. The gunk and heavy armor videos are just about creating maybe passable - but still admitedly mechanically weak - builds with Wotc chassi. But the chassi is the major problem, and he is the first to point that Those builds can’t solve that
The issues primarily stem from the base class being “slightly” overloaded at level 5 being granted on-demand Stuns.
Stunning is incredibly powerful and a monk can effectively stun any enemy as long as they have ki to burn. Because of this the Monk’s subclasses lack power and diversity. Most times a subclass simply provided a slightly different flavor of Monk where they double down on an aspect from the base class. Mercy and Open Hand abuses Flurry of Blows, Shadow plays into Movement and exploration, Kensei builds into the Monk Weapons. In the cases where a subclass tries to make a new way to play monk, Sun Soul and 4 Elements come to mind, you end up with a mess of disconnected features that don’t play nicely together. Sun Soul plays at range, disallowing the use of your strongest feature Stunning Strike and 4 Elements costs so much to use with minimal pay off that you’re more akin to an Eldritch Knight that took the “Evocation” spell restriction a little too seriously and only brought powered down variants of blaster spells with half the resources to actually cast them.
We played a 20-level oneshot and I picked a halfling monk. It was INSANE. We fought this huge, two kilometer tall monster (i genuinely cant remember the name name of it) and after about two hours of desperate whittling down, we had made it bloody, but spellcasters had ran out of good spells and our HP points were dangerously low. So i, playing the open palm monk, killed it with that one technique. It was glorious. It was also a good time to end it, because it was getting late.
The problem with the level 20 open palm ability is that it's a CON save, the easiest save for monsters to pass in the game. They are still put to shame by any spell caster at that level even if you take away the option to use the wish spell. They're probably outclassed by a level 15 wizard.
Man, 2 km is just too big. A Tarrasque is only like 15 metres tall. That thing would be 130 times the height, something like 2 million times the weight, and would take like 20 minutes of travel time to get from one end of to the other.
A house rule I've seen for monks is step of the wind and patient defense to not use ki points, which apart from removing one of the drains of a limited resource, it also (in my opinion) makes the choices for what to do in combat more interesting, because it makes dodging or running away cost as much as a single strike.
Dodge as a bonus action is still a little crazy. It is totally outclassed by the level 18 ability to go invisible and get resistance but at low levels especially it is crazy if you spec your stats well. I would say dash and disengage are free but keep the cost of dodge.
@@hyper_sword8835 Not really, they are an armorless class. I would say to make it last more than just the one turn though, 1 point to not even guarantee a miss is really shit when you think about it. Not to mention all it does is give disadvantage to attacks, so if they _gain_ advantage (like from being hidden/invisible or you are using gang-up or flanking rules) the ki point is completely wasted. Changing it to make the dodge action last something like turns equal to Wis mod would be a fair ability. At 2 that is only going to be 3 or 4 rounds which at low levels a combat may take several turns longer. You have to remember you have 2 ki at level 2, I don't think I have seen a single monk ever use the dodge action for 1 ki excepting higher levels where they have the ki to burn.
Monk is the most frustrating class for me because their ability’s would be so cool if I could actually use them. They have less uses of less strong features.
Also I want to run on walls before level 9 please. The movement utility is completely outshined by rouges, especially thieves.
Movement utility is outshined by anybody playing a tabaxi. Climbing speed and free dash action at level 1.
rogues*
I think you can probably home-brew a solution like more Ki-points/being able to earn Ki-points during combat
@@red-jackal2230 each subclass could have a special way that encourages certain play-styles.
Like dodging an attack for open hand, or being exposed to elemental damage for the four elements. In order to balance it they could make it so the regain ability can only be used once per short rest. There could also be a universal meditation ability out of combat.
@@red-jackal2230 yeah probably. i think itd be a real cool way to keep the ki point idea but make it a fun mechanic rather than a roadblock. Can also probably homebrew some more real world inspired subclasses that are actually strong.
A ranged focused monk subclass (many warrior monks relied on bows and guns as their primary weapons)
an espionage and trickery based monk subclass (to represent ninjas, who afaik were less often the shadowy invisible roof runners we depict in media, and more often spies in disguise and using gadgets like bolas, caltrops and smoke bombs to their advantage)
a monk subclass inspired by indian martial arts, would need to have that indian blade whip weapon homebrewed into the game too tho. would be centered on personal defense bolstered by unending weapon swings that add to the ac until stopped. probably some sort of concentration thing that lasts multiple turns.
hawaiian martial arts monk, a subclass that is very con and maybe strength based, functioning as tank
I think another issue with monks is that a lot of their abilities can be replicated by spellcasters.
Stunning strike - hypnotic pattern
Slow fall - featherfall
Lots of attacks to hit multiple creatures - fireball
Self healing - cure wounds
Step of the wind - misty step
Patient defense - blur
This hurts monks even more because all the cool stuff you can do can just be replicated by your caster friend making it feel less cool
Hypnotic pattern actually doesn't replicate stunning strike as it just incapacitates the creatures. Stunned is a lot nastier.
Featherfall leaves you vulnerable to attacks as you are falling. If you also implement the fall damage sharing of Tasha's, monks can land on a target and give them half and negate the remaining half.
Same argument can be said about any martial class with multiple attacks.
Short rest vs Long rest unless you're a warlock.
Spell that can be counterspelled.
Concentration spell.
Most casters have more spell slots than monks have Ki points and at most levels by quite a lot... so yeah, start weak, but never catch up
@@dandanner3111 And a higher DC to save against... and the option to target specific saves... and can do it from range... It's so unfortunate -_-'
@@nswmeeuwes89 Casters are also significantly worse if they get their toys taken away or run out of resources.
Something a good DM should play around with at least once if you have a monk in the party.
either by egregious use of anti-magic shenanigans or just a battle of attrition.
A monk without any tools and/or resources is by far stronger than a caster without the same.
But yes, at full power nothing could possibly beat a normal caster like wizards or sorcerers just like they mentioned in the video ( warlocks are a odd case on their own )
Wait. Is it really an issue that magic exists? Just because the wizard has fireball does not make other classes less valuable.
Something I think wizards could do to uplift the monk a bit would be to give it abilities that it can use for free, but with a ki point it could be amplified in some way.
This
that’s basically what flurry of blows is (a ki point to make two strikes instead of one) but then they dropped the ball with step of the wind and patient defense. i think the SW5e monk just gives dash and disengage as bonus actions, and you can spend a ki point to double your jump distance or dodge when you do the dash or disengage respectively.
they also include an extra martial arts die scaling by having 9th and 13th level each adding a buff instead of 11th.
you can also shove/trip/grapple with dex.
they’re pretty cool
This video single-handedly got me into DND. Thank you so much, I just saw it in my recommended, and I said why not
Welcome
For my home games, I added something to the Level 20 Perfect Self Monk ability. I make it mirror the Barbarian's, as the other class with Unarmored Defense: Your Dexterity and Wisdom Scores are each increased by 4, to max of 24. I still keep the "regain 4 ki" part, to mirror the Barbarian's infinite rages at level 20.
This, in my opinion, really helps fulfill the Monk Fantasy: 24 AC and +13 to Dex saves means you can duck and weave past any attack Matrix-style; the low health doesn't matter if nothing can touch you. With +13 to hit and a Save DC of 21, you never miss a pressure point. It doesn't fix some of the other problems with the Monk, but it feels like a Level 20 ability.
If you're level 20 and nothing can hit a 24 AC you're in the smallest pond possible lmao. Also you still do no damage and have poor utility
@@donovangunther4538 Yeah, I know, I was being poetic. My point is it's better than nothing and it boosts both defense and offense, and is thematically appropriate.
@@donovangunther4538 get some Gloves of Soul Catching and your damage will be fine.
@@insertphrasehere15 Yes after you gain that legendary item your monk will be doing good damage.
I actually like this implementation. Good idea.
"Monk is the best class in the game at saving throws"
>Laughs in Paladin who gets Aura of Protection a whole 8 levels earlier than Diamond Soul.
Both ?
Both.
Both is good
@@e4ehco21 Missing the point entirely.
The problem is that when held up against pretty much every other class, there is nothing the Monk excels at or does well enough that it cannot be done by another class with less effort and greater effect. And it's a substantial enough of a disparity that it's very easily noticeable if you pay any attention to mechanics.
We're not being critical of the class because we enjoy talking shit on it, we're being critical of the class because it needs some attention by the designers to be brought more in line with every other class.
@@Stupacalypse82 you also miss the point, that's an aura ability that can extend to nearby teammates potentially stacking with diamond soul
@@e4ehco21 I know exactly how both abilities work, so no, I'm not missing the point, and in fact, you've literally just explained why Aura of Protection is superior to Diamond Soul.
@@Stupacalypse82 It's really not though. Diamond Soul gives proficiency, that's what's important. A Hight level Paladin is likely to be more of a topper, and only for themselves and other melee PC's (10ft isn't that large). Plus as most Paladin's dump spellcasting your likely only looking at a +2 or +3 bonus as it's based on their CHA.
Meanwhile the Monk get's proficiency and at lvl 14 that's a +5 PERMANENTLY while a paladins aura can actually be blocked by a few things(AKA anything that blocks magic, also the Paladin being incapacitated).
So while upfront Aura of Protection is very strong, it also has many more weaknesses then Diamond Soul wich has none.
Me and my dm made a cool subclass that’s as kind of jujuitsu kaisen flavored, basically the premise of it was that I can steal ki on attacks as long as I don’t use any for my whole turn, and in doing so they take a temporary decrease to their con, dex, or str score. Really made the monk finally feel fun and useful in the party.
Any link to that?
Also, assuming you'll get short rests is always a problem. If you’re at a table with a DM that doesn't go in on those, or in a party that doesn't want/need them - both not exactly uncommon - then you WILL probably run out of Ki and be stuck.
The number of times I've wasted all my ki points just to try to stun a big bad is astronomical. Stunning strike is great when it works, but its a 2 fold problem. The first being its save is wis based, so you can stun easier or do more damage early game. The other is that 95% of the enemies you will face at level 5 and up have good to great con saves.
At higher levels when you can really spam it, most of the big bad monsters will have legendary resistance. This means that it doesn’t even scale well into the late game when you have more points.
@@insertphrasehere15 To be fair, getting rid of Legendary resistances is amazing. Monk is underrated as a *support* class in this regard- it has the perfect setup ability for the ENTIRE party! If the baddies fail, they either spend a legendary resist (making it easier for the casters to get off their spells that have crazier DCs and affects) OR, they get stunned!
Playing a monk CAN be frustrating, especially if you choose a subclass that isn't particularly viable, or are in a group with other players who play their martials very competently, but I don't think it's fair to say that it doesn't scale well just because monsters get stronger. I mean, that's affecting everybody who inflicts saving throws, not just monks.
Monks should use their stunning fist on enemy spell casters (notorious for having low CON saves). Save the party from getting a fireball to the face and even the bard will have to stop talking smack about the monk.
@@assfuckingshit I am kind of amazed that I've seen a handful of people make the mistake of saying that the save's a Wis one instead of Con like you pointed out. Like I get that the ki save DC used Wis bot that doesn't mean Stunning Strike needs a Wis save.
Seriously though WHY do so many people say it's a Wis save?!
Three fold even, the Monk has to land a hit to use it. Brilliant when it works but it may not most of the time.
The thing about all those unarmed strikes ("Use it for everything past level 11!") is that the Fighter, by level 11, isn't using a longsword. They're using a Flame Blade for 1d8+2d6+7 per attack. Or a Longsword +2 for a huge boost to damage by increasing both accuracy and damage. Or... Yeah. But that ALSO matters less because Polearm Mastery and Great Weapon Mastery overshadow a lot of the damage done by other sources, or Sharpshooter if you're just staying away from the enemy. The magic item issue also comes up on defense-- a Monk, by Level 16, can have AC 20, which is pretty good. But a Fighter can have an AC of 20 as soon as they can get 1510 GP together, and that's WITHOUT using magic items, of which there are tons that will benefit the Fighter but not the Monk.
On top of that with the AC issue You can only get a 20AC At level 16 as a monk if you've never pump constitution or get any feats Fighters however Can bump all of their stats with with there many ASI'S Have a fantastic AC and grab a couple of good feats
This is assuming you’re not giving monks magic items to boost their damage output and AC. As for AC, fighters and paladins with heavy armour and shields should have a better AC. They should have the best AC in the game. Monks get faster movement, deflect missiles, and evasion, so they don’t really need to have the best AC possible in the game on top of that.
@@darthcarnage12 they do not? Oh, i would like to see them going into melee with both less hp and ac. How are they going to survive creatures of 8-10 CR with 40-60 dpr just with melee hits?
And that's just a mid diff enemies without taking into the account any good bosses which are going to 1 round kill this monk with their legendary actions.
@@darthcarnage12
There are no weapons in any official book that boosts monk unarmed strikes. Only homebrew items, which in a discussion on balance is not meaningful in any regard.
@@benjaminjane93 There are non-weapon items that help?
Insignia of Claws and the Eldritch Claw tattoo.
You fail to mention the downside of stunning strike: it's great chance to do absolutely nothing. First you have to hit the creature, which scales off your Dex, then they have to fail a Con saving throw (on average to worst save to taget) which scales off your Wis. I believe during critical roles second campaign it turned out to be a 70% chance of stunning strike failing and that doesn't even take the chance of missing with the attack into account.
That's why it's such a cheap cost. Spending 1 Ki point to Stun a target will always be more economic than spending a spell slot to cast any CC spell. And the complaint largely comes from as he mentioned in the video, those who typically play low level campaigns because of the Ki point limited use. But at lvl 11+ you don't even really notice, and the point further being that it's about probability your force repeated rolls until a failure, which then comes down to being a savvy resource manager. Because while you may not have gotten the Stunning Strike, it does mean you still hit it and you're still damaging it and you still have plenty of Ki points to spare of which you get after a short rest--no spell slot system is near as economic. Which is why in a team group there'll be those who pick up things to support there buddies' classes, when I see a monk in my group lotta' times I'll go Divination Wizard, use my low rolled Portent dies to make certain those Stunning Strikes stun their targets forcing failed rolls. Critical Role is not quite an example of great team play, especially in S2, awesome roleplay and a fun DnD campaign to watch, but seeing classes shine at their best synergized with great teamplay--rarely.
@@Apillis124 Why would the divination wizard waste portent on a stun for one round and not use it on something more devestating like a paralize that even has the potential to last multiple rounds? And relying on another, borderline op, feature does not make the thus boosted feature any better as there are over 100 other subclasses the party could consist of.
I also would say casting a spell on multiple targets to disable them for potentially multiple rounds with a far greater chance of working because the DC for it scales off your primary ability score and doesn't target the worst save to target is more economical than to use something with such a low chance of doing anything to only one target at a time.
Yes, at higher levels the cost is not as high anymore, but remember, mist campaigns take place at far lower levels.
I only mentioned Critical role because that is the only somewhat long lasting campaign I have stat for this feature for. Statistical relevance and all.
@@JoschiChr Because by using that Portent, I can otherwise save that spell slot for something else and I and everyone else now has Advantage on the target, and it auto-fails any Dex/Str save and all for 1 Ki. That is insanely economic and powerful, and if any player is far too myopic to see the benefit of that, man, am I glad they stay away from Monks and I'll make certain they ain't at my table nor me theirs.
@@Apillis124 One ki AND a portent. A portent that could have given the rogue and/or paladin auto crits in addition to the advantage and so on. With the potential for doing that for multiple rounds. As we are talking fifth level or higher here with stunning strike, second level spell slots are not all too rare, remember that they come back on a short rest once per day.
@@JoschiChr Because how often do you think I can cast Paralyze? And with Advantage both the Rogue and Paladin can still crit-fish and get a critical. It's about manipulating probability. Especially at high-level when you have Greater Portent, this is why I despise players who are so focused on the spell Paralyze and think it prevents any use of Stunning Strike. Yes, congrats, you understand that Paralyze is stronger than Stun, unfortunately yah' haven't caught on repeatedly casting it even at high-level still isn't half as economic as 1 Ki point. So if I can cast Paralyze on one thing, and aid the Monk to Stun another. If you're going to sit their and try to argue with me this is a bad thing, so casters can further conserve spell slots--more so in long running dungeons with fewer rests. Then get the hell away from my table, because you ain't no teamplayer.
I think the main problem is survivability and the envy of classes that don't need to bump multiple stats. While monks at later levels get some cool abilities, they have almost nothing to help them live long enough to get them there. With low health, relatively low ac and almost no official monk specific magic items (which sucks so much) they need to rely on others to keep them alive, and while it is a cooperative game it can very quickly make you feel like the weak link when you are constantly being saved by the others in the party. And when it comes to ability score improvements it can feel boring to have to bump a stat just to stay viable while the others get to play around with cool new abilities luck telekinesis or lucky. If a campaign is slated to go past level 12 i would definately go monk, but if not i give it a hard pass
Also that they have no where near enough ki to make regular use of thier abilities and once that is gone they are objectively worse than very other class in the game.
"The most broken level 5 ability in the game" *Laughs in "Conjure Animals"*
I mean Hold person is also better and you don’t have to be next to them
@@futureseniorcitizen646 Hold Person against a single person might fail (or have a Legendary Resistance used against it) while eight cows simultaneously charging and goring the enemy/enemies is a much safer bet. Most enemies don’t have flight, so surrounding the boss would lock them down well enough (and if not, an attack on a cow to get away is an attack not on your party).
@@lucasm.3864 to be honest... hold person when works is BULLSHIT. Its a dm spell since enemies are rarely humanoid but players allmost allways humanoid(laughs in centaur). If a player fail the saving throw they are done, especially when caught in a bad location.
Another thing about the Stunned condition is that it breaks concentration, as it makes a creature incapacitated which means they lose concentration. Sooooooooooo yeah. Plus that’s a spell not necessarily an ability
@@makaramuss Yup. Had a DM cast hold person on my entire party before, only the cleric passed. Issue is, they were a pure healbot cleric. Barely didn't tpk that fight.
Stunning Strike isn’t really broken. It all hinges on if you hit the enemy in the first place and then use a point to gamble on the possibility that they fail a save (which a lot of late game monsters have a good modifier in) and also doesn’t use a Legendary Resistance.
Meanwhile something like the Paladin’s Smite feature can be chosen after you hit the opponent and automatically works (so you don’t have to bet a resource on it). Stunning Strike is awesome when it happens, but it can easily drain your Ki Points with nothing to show for it.
You also contradicted yourself later when you said AC didn’t matter before being happy about getting a 20 AC. With such a low hit die, being in melee combat is extremely dangerous when there’s such a high chance of getting hit. Rogues can stay safely from a distance to pick enemies off, but putting yourself in their range is risky if you can’t take more than a few hits. I’d rather take either someone who has HP to spare or a guy not in danger of getting hit over someone with relatively low HP who always has a chance of getting hit.
You choose to inflict stunning strike after you have hit them. So if you miss, you haven't wasted your ki point
You need to announce the Stunning Strike before attacking?
I agree about hoping thy fail a save though. I played in a game where every single enemy made their save against Stunning Strike. And the Barbarians blinding attack and grapple attack and they always succeeded on their stealth rolls. And almost every attack hit with every 5th one critting.
That’s bad wording on my part, first you have to hit and *then* gamble on using the ki point. I messed up on that communication.
You are absolutely right but it becomes even worse when compared to spells like Web hypnotic pattern or Tasha's mindwidth which are cheaper forecasters and rely on better saves and hypnotic pattern lasts far longer than then stunning strike also many of them are AOE shut down instead of just a single target
@@dallindespain5082 How the fuck is it cheaper? Stunning strike is 1/level ki points which you get every short rest?
So ABSOLUTE MINIMUM, at level 5 if you only stunning strike once a round and every round you also step of the wind or flurry of blows, you have around 3-4 rounds of EVERY ATTACK doing a stunning strike.
Thank you for this. I can't begin to express how much I appreciate you highlighting the monk's strengths. I've gotten hate at the table for playing the monk class and I get anxious bringing one to games with people I'm not close to. I've been berated for successfully landing stunning strikes on multiple spellcaster enemies because I "made the encounter boring" and that "DM's should have fun too", I've been messaged by the DM to not use Stunning Strikes coz it makes them salty, and I doubt that will be the last time. I love this class and how it acts as a good martial support. Damage dealing isn't my top priority, but rather turning the action economy tide in my party's favor by disabling enemy spellcasters and forcing the BBEG to burn legendary resistances so my caster friends can debilitate it with their spells. I'm aware of its flaws, but I'm sick and tired of being told that they're useless. Thank you again for sharing some love for the Monk.
you sound like the kind of monk i WANT to have in my party.
@@CyColt Thank you for the compliment. If you find yourself trying Adventurers League DND 5e (if you haven't yet), maybe we'll be party mates one day.
Honestly if a DM complains about stunning strike when hold person exists they need another TTRPG
@@cheveuxnoir7765 FACTUAL
You need better DMs.
I used 6 levels of Monk (Shadow) as a multiclass for my Rogue (Assassin). Pass without trace makes my character virtually undetectable (I regularly roll in the high 30's or low 40's), and moving through shadows makes infiltration child's play.
I was playing around with a similar idea, Shadar-Kai Monk6 (Shadow) Rogue 3 (Soulknife), Elven Accuracy feat, Racial gives me teleport 30ft and gains resistance to all until next turn, Advantage for days, roll 3 times basically for advantage, and can work group attack formations with telepathy
One feat I wish I could use more with Monks is the Crusher feat. It almost feels like it was made for monks. With 1 feat you can:
1) Buff your Con a bit, which is nice for monks who need the bulk
2) Shove enemies back which helps with disengaging, especially useful for monks who have to be able to move around.
3) Gives a chance to allow all other attacks on a target to be at advantage until your next turn when you crit, which is most likely for monks since they attack the most often
In the UA crusher was +1 STR/DEX and it was the good shit for monks
Open Hand monks already shove, knock prone, and take away reactions *for free* when you hit FoB attacks.
This is part of the reason I always start my level 1 characters with one feat. It allow players to start with something that feels like a meaningful build decision from the very start, adds a lot of flavor to their character that would otherwise be lacking, and allows classes that underperform at low levels (which is, like, half of them, to be honest) to take something that either adds to existing skill set or gives them something new to play with.
It also solves the issue of a player wanting to play someone that is born with some form of psychic power that they want to discover the source of... but then being unable to do anything with that until level 4.
@@defeatstatistics7413 Not every mon, is open hand tho, and with this option, you won't spend a ki point. For a variant human monk, starting with Crusher is a very good option.
And another feat that seems made for monks is mobile. You get even more speed, difficult terrain doesn't affect you when you run, which you can do as a bonus, and you don't leave opportunity attack if you attack. What are you surrounded by 4 enemies? It's okay, I make an attack to each enemy and get out of there without problems and doing damage on the way, you can even add some flavor to those 4 attacks (Things like leaf hurricane of Rock Lee). That's definitely cool and fun and gives the monk the ability to be ultra mobile, like the name of the feat
At my table, I usually use a monk mechanic called:"Ki hoarding". From Level 2-7 you can triple the amount of ki you have, but can't recover it during short rest. At Level 8-15 it's times 4 and above 15 you get actual Infinite ki points
Oh, so it's like a Super Saiyan where, when activated you temporarily triple the max ki. The condition that you can't recover this from a short rest means you should only really use it if you're desperate or sure you'll be able to long rest afterwards. Nice.
Summary: monks are comparatively worse than other martial classes at early levels and games rarely make it to the level monks become good, other classes are still most likely better
Monks peak when the get proficiency in all saves, frankly if monks got more hp they would be really Good
I played a high level monk and sure never failing a saving throw was cool but stunning strike never worked and I was out dammaged by everyone in my party, I still feels underpowered
monks are a martial support class, moaning about monks' low damage is like moaning about clerics not getting fireball. That isn't their role.
@@defeatstatistics7413 I don't mean to burst your bubble but clerics do technically get fireball. Cleric can fit any role for the party
@@defeatstatistics7413 every support class outdamages the monk so either monk is the best support class or they are underpowered
I like the Level + Wisdom idea. You could also do Level + Proficiency, which is consistent with the direction D&D has been going lately. A less generous DM could even make those extra Ki Points refresh on a long rest, while the Level-based ki points would still refresh on a short rest. Even that would be a big help in early-mid game.
Level+Prof is pseudo nlog(n) where n=level since prof is directly based on level. I like the +wis bonus (min zero) because that gives a choice; better AC and combat vs more cool tricks (or throw it all away on int and cha just for kicks)
I think the Monk has two big problems.
1) Stunning Strike is super good but uses your limited Ki Points.
2) They don't get additional ASI like Rogues or Fighters even though they need to be good at 3 abilities.
I agree I think treemonks change to monk making it a long rest class is better check it out I be you will like it an stunning strike is kinda a trap in big groups and Legendary resistances kinda screw it up a bit
The flipside to 2) is that when being MAD isn't a downside because of limited ASI, monks become pretty scary.
Extra stats is great but it only takes you so far if there is nothing to use them on.
Monks do become significantly stronger than many other martial classes if you are allowed to roll stats and manage to roll 3+ high stats.
But that's very luck and/or DM-dependent.
They also do very well in a game without all the feat and multiclassing shenanigans other classes like to pull.
But restricting customisation and choice just for one person isn't really a good thing unless everyone is on board with it.
Another problem that I think is the biggest, that everything single subclass is not good at all, especially their 11th level features. So you have to go from level 6 to 17 before you get another substantial feature.
Yep. Giving them extra ASIs would help a ton. Also it would be nice if some of the subclasses built on Monk's strengths, but instead they make their weaknesses even more debilitating.
@@gregorysoldatman yeah sadly
You kinda glossed over the issues with stunning strike tbh. Yeah, it's a great condition, but it's pretty unreliable. Consider that you need to first hit your opponent and then they need to fail a CON save (possibly the worst save to target). If you pump dex to hit more reliably, your wis will likely suffer and the DC will be fairly low. If you pump wis, your odds of hitting in the first place are lower. If you pump both, you miss out on constitution and the odds of it failing are pretty high still.
This is pretty miserable when you compare it to what basically any caster can do with a whole arsenal of spells at each spell level. It is still possibly the best thing a monk can do, but it just feels utterly lackluster.
^This. Even in a very long campaign that goes all the way to higher levels, in Critical Role Season 1 there was only a 55% success rate for Stunning Strike, and it got worse over time thanks to the general ramp up of the CON stat for enemies outpacing the bumps to Wisdom. Is it useful? Sure (especially if your DM doesn't include enemies with access to Lesser Restoration). Is it something you can count on using? Not always, and possibly not even half of the time. That's...a lot of Ki used for nothing, even at higher levels.
And that was said: "your ki are effectivly infinite". What? I mean, at lvl 15 you are going to use like 4 ki every turn just to hit a bit and have any reasonable chance to stun. And then, youre probably going to reroll at least 1 saving throw per round. And that comes to 3 rounds of being somewhere equal to barbarian or fighter (actually they are going to deal much more dmg and tank more, but lets ignore that). And then what? At 4th round youre a 25 dpr MACHINE with 0 survivability, utility or battlifield control. How strong, monk, you truly ARE so impressive
@@Melix0ff and it gets worse - a Samurai Fighter or an Echo Knight Fighter are rocking basically the same number of attacks for far longer, and it only gets worse once they get multiple Action Surges. Oh, and with magical weapons. Oh, and they have more hit points. Oh, and they can take more feats.
I grew up watching Kung Fu movies, Donnie Yen is one of my favorite actors, and I was born in Hawaii where the Asian influence and culture makes me want to love the monk. I just don't think it has the same punch (hehe) as other martials, and it has unnecessary taxes compared to them.
Untill you hit the boss with it and hes just screwed
Honestly I kind of just wish Ki was monk level + wisdom or level + proficiency modifier. Neither is perfect, but both give you a bit of more breathing room at earlier levels, and just a hint more punch at higher levels. Also maybe one or two bonus feat/ASI like the fighter gets.
I would say half level + wisdom + PB. But yeah, I agree
Love the video! I’m glad the algorithm brought me here, you make some great stuff!
A couple changes I implemented in my games to even up our favorite kick-punchers:
- starting Martial Arts die is a d6; doing 1 average extra damage every turn doesn’t wildly skew the underlying fundamental math, and helps narrow the gap with other martials
- changed Deflect Missiles to last until the start of the Monk’s next turn, like the Shield spell. Still is a pretty situational use case, and even if the party were to somehow go up against an all-ranged-attacks enemy group, that just makes for an awesome story later
- Starting at 2nd level, once per long rest, Monks can take an action to recover a number of Ki points equal to their PB when they’re at half or less (not exceeding their maximum limit). Makes a big impact early game and less so later
- Replaced “Tongue of the Sun and Moon” with a new feature called “Debilitating Strike,” which allows Monks to choose to spend an additional Ki point on a Stunning Strike (2 instead of 1) to impose disadvantage on the target’s CON save; most CR-appropriate creatures have decent to high CON saves in Tier 3 and 4 play, and with WIS likely being ~18 since most players prioritize DEX, that helps negate that 1 point difference between the Monk’s save DC and the Casters (who, being almost totally SAD, have likely had their primary stat maxed out since level 8)
Here’s hoping they get some TLC whenever 5.5 (or w/e it ends up being) gets revealed!
They also have far far less optimisation options than any other class. A fighter can easily outperform a monk damage-wise with numerous feats like GWM or CBE, literally all casters can be optimized just through the spell selection.
There are some interesting builds for monks, like using armor/rifles but then you're giving up certain class features and you'd probably be better off just taking another class.
Not just that, every martial is a better monk than a monk. Want to play an unarmed badass? Pick actually anything but the monk trap.
@@donovangunther4538 ehh? playing a non-monk, unarmed badass really is relegated to either playing a fighter, or picking up the fighting style feat to grab the Unarmed fighting style. Sure, one feat dip is easier than an entire multiclass to the later levels for their martial arts die to get that strong, but it's not as though *anybody* can outperform the monk, especially by just grabbing the unarmed fighting style.
It works a lot better for Fighter- especially considering RAW and RAI, paladins can't *actually* smite with their fists (though personally I find jeremy crawford's ruling there to be BS), and rangers just suck. BUT, nothing can quite hit the martial arts, kung fu movie style that Monk gives you without a lot of creative flavoring for spells, or a DM that's pretty cool with a bunch of homebrew.
@@auroralraconteur3312 "A fighter can easily outperform a monk damage-wise with numerous feats" If you need a Feat for your comparison, then that shows just how illogical the premise of your comment is. And you... do realise that Monks have access to Feats as well, right?
@@xboxcrusher I mean, feats are almost universally allowed at most tables so there's no reason not to bring them up to the discussion. The ability for monks to use them, however, is extremely limited. The tried and true GWM/PAM combo just doesn't work well on Monk due to their restriction of using martial arts with heavy weapons so you're better off playing a different martial class. Sharpshooter has the same issue where there's nearly no synergy with your monk abilities apart from Kensei which is really only a *marginal* boost.
@@xboxcrusher yeah let's take a feat for the Monk that... gives bonus action attack
Yeah that doesn't sound good so I guess Fighters are just ba-oh, they took GWM and can add +10 to their damage? Uhh... I can't use heavy weapons on my monk... Well at least I can run in before the-oh nevermind, the Ranger with Archery+Sharpshooter+Crossbow Expert already sniped far away enemies.
Monks have always been useful in my games as a player/or DM. Monks have a special place in my heart having done some insane shit with them.
Amen! Most people who hate monks just don't know how to play to their strengths. They are a great support class (kinda like a bard with muscle really). High mobility, stealth capable, never truly unarmed or unarmored...what's weak about that?
You must have OP teammates that covered for you or you designed the game around the monk's ability to get shit done.
and thats perfectly fine. the main argument that the internet and or community around dnd has, is that monk is terrible game designed wise. its got sub par ability's its milti stat dependency hinders it in so many ways. and the class needs magic items to keep up with the rest of a given party, that does not have magic items. monk as a class feels like your playing chess while all the other class's are playing checkers.
@@assfuckingshit support? Monks are martial, which raises the problem a martial where its best feature is suppousedly support.
@@assfuckingshit Yeah, maybe monks deal less damage, true, but if the damage output is the only way you judge a class in D&D, well, maybe you're playing D&D wrong (although yes, there is no wrong way to play).
I read these comments and whenever people start mentioning ''dps'' or ''but if you look at the math'', I think those people have lost at D&D already. It's not a computer game. It is also not a competition who deals more damage. If the only thing that ever matters in your combat encounters is damage, well, your fights could be a bit boring.
I contend that if the next version of the monk got rid of stunning strike the devs would suddenly be willing to make the monk twice as powerful as it is now. New players think the class feature is an "I-win" for combat and the devs are forced to shrug and keep the monk down because of it.
in 3.5 Monks still had stunning strike with double the unarmed damage bonus they get in 5e with an added base movement bonus and gave you a Wisdom bonus to saving throws and AC.
Stunning Fist was something that never got used because Monks used to do and avoid enough damage to be the best upfront fighter in the party.
The devs heard people saying Monks were OP and nerfed them, hence the current state of Monks as a class.
It's their own damn fault for not having the dazed condition in 5e. It's a perfect middle ground between no effect and stunned. For those who don't know, it was a 4e condition that let creatures either move OR take an action, with no reaction and no bonus action on their turn. You would also have advantage when attacking a dazed creature, but they wouldn't have disadvantage if they attacked. It's annoying that they took it out of RAW.
See also: Metamagic on Sorcerers.
As an alternative to giving Monks additional Ki points equal to their proficiency bonus, I'm tempted to homebrew that Monks can expend hit dice in place of Ki. At least on a narrative level, I find the idea of a Monk pushing themselves past their limits to be appealing. I've always like the idea of using hit dice as a resource for something other than healing, and this would be thematically appropriate.
I love that you use so much magic art in your videos. I'm a huge fan of both and seeing them over lap always makes my heart happy.
For a serious comment though idk if I share the opinion that they're great at high levels. Yes, some of those features are nice, but it also bears notice that most subclasses also sap their ki points pretty heavily (and mileage varies here from Mercy being great, and four elements being meme). But still, for the rare high-level campaign, I still just don't see how or where monks ever pull ahead of the competition. The big problem is feats. You've already conceded that monks are too MAD to virtually ever be able to afford feats - which is true. Well, fighters don't have that problem. They'll have 3 attacks standard, and they get EXTRA asi's to make sure to snag sharpshooter / crossbow expert, or great weapon master / polearm master (or others, all build dependent). And for zero resources (forgoing their nova action surge round) are just blowing the monk out of the water in their damage output.
It really is a problem of comparison. It's not that high level monks are *bad* it's just that they're worse than their peers. In broad strokes this largely comes down to feats by my estimation.
being worse than you're peers = bad when the game is balanced around your peers and not you.
@@dumbwaki5877 I mean fair enough. I routinely tell people monks are the worst class in the game. But dungeons and dragons generally isn't hard unless your DM is VERY hardcore. Game's generally designed for the players to win, and a monk will do just fine in a normal campaign. But yes, they will be outperformed by their peers.
Lol. You are one of the only youtubers that I watch their sponsor ads. The geology ad is hilarious and I'm considering an order! Amazing!
I really liked this video, and I think it would make a good series if you covered the other classes too. Would work as great reference material for my players looking to try something new in later campaigns
Even by higher levels I wouldn't say the ki points cease to become a problem. If you wanna have the max utility effect in a combat and go nova in the first rounds, wouldn't be unusual to be out of ki points by the 3rd round. And even after 14 attempts of stunning strike, there's a very good chance that none hit and now you're out of ki and are limited to causing subpar damage.
If there is a very good chance that none of your stunning strikes hit or take affect after 14 tries...it might be a you problem or you might just have horribly abysmal luck and need to through out your dice.
@@Steelgrey666 it's throw, as in saving throw lol. Also, it wouldn't be his dice failing anyway, but the DM succeeding. Not to mention stunning strike is con based save and based on wisdom modifier...most high car monsters have good con and many have con save proficiency...you see the problem here right?
@@Steelgrey666adult red dragón is like +13 in CON. You can certainly try to stun him.
@@lucasleiva8215 even assuming you are fighting the dragon at 17th level and that the monk has used all their ASIs in DEX and WIS taking no feat and started with both at 16 (so 14 con) the dragon has an 75% chance to pass the save. Being more realistic and having the encounter happen at lower levels would make the chance raise to 85% 90% if the monk decided to take a feat or to not start with 16 WIS. Basically you can try, chances are you are gonna waste all your ki in burning through one or 2 legendary resistances
So, for the sake of argument, lets say you're a level 13 monk with a +5 wisdom modifier. If the target has a +8 to con saves, the probability of failing 14 consecutive stunning strikes is 0.006%
I think what would solve a lot of the monk problems would be to just make the mobile feat a basic class feature for them
It improves their defense and also actually allows them to be the quick hit and runnner that they are built for
Monks being able to move freely and pepper enemies with attacks just makes sense for monks and it’s honestly surprising that they relegated mobile to just a feat
I love the fact that you are willing to give people access to the patron videos if they can’t afford to pay for it, that shows that you do it not all for the money and instead to help make better videos.
Top class act
While I'm not requesting access to that content or anything, I think it's a real 'stand up' move looking out for those who can't afford it. Respect
After playing a monk for 8+ months, I have to say that they feel weak. Sure, stunning strike is really good... if you have a high wis and didn't crank dex, which you need to land the hit. You are also banking on the enemy rolling low bc Con is the highest avg stat for every monster.
By lvl 15, you become strong enough to hang with fighters, whom are still out dps-ing you. Fighter isn't built well either, but they have more options. But that isn't even a factor when most dnd games that end naturally do so at or around 11th lvl.
Step of the wind is not worth a ki point, as not only do rogues get it for free, but you cut into your already meh damage per round.
Unarmed strikes synergize with the least amount of stuff in the game, and have very little magical support to make them comparable to box standard fighters. You cant smite with your fists, and the only spell that works to help is hex, which you have to burn a feat, or have decent cha to get.
There are some good monk multiclass that work to do what they're intended for, but base class monk doesnt become good until after most games end.
I would say that fighters in their natural state are bad ONLY because they're built as a blank canvas.
If you look at it, fighter is a Flav Class like Rangers.
You get a metric fuck ton of feats. And anyone can be a fighter. You can be a tavern keeper in a harsh neighborhood - Duelist/Unarmed fighter.
You can be a town's guard - Two handed fighter.
You can even make other classes out of fighters xD.
A wizard who was thrown out of the academy - Eldritch Knight.
A brutal assassin who chops rather than stabs - Two weapon fighter with cleavers.
Monks don't really get that.
Absolutely not. Monks die hard at the end of games. They're strongest early game.
@@Aodhan_Raith I would say their peak is at mid-late stages of the campaign, while most spellcasters have a peak in early-mid and then at the very end with their caps.
Martials are good throughout the campaign, only thing they need is some magic items to cover their weaknesses.
@@quill9648 Monks are best at lvl 5, which even then, you're above average for 3 rounds max, and 11, which you wont reach unless you have a lucky and consistent group. Persoanlly, I think they should just make Monk the Martial CC class, and make Open hand intrisic to the class. I dont care about doing damage if half the enemies also cant do damage because of me. Instead of having to burn through everything to be viable, just make Flurry of blows cost nothing but the bonus action, and allow the monk to put a status on each strike.
@@Cosmic_K13 i am lucky enough to have a persistent group. We're level 13 now, and our DM wants to reach Epic Destiny levels (25).
The LEAST useful in combat is our Lore Bard, then my Beastmaster currently because my best fell and i don't have components for the ritual.
Then there are our Mercy Monk and Spellslinger. Our strongest is our Vengeance Paladin. If i have my beast with me, i overtake the monk and Spellslinger by a tiny bit, and i am arguably stronger than the Paladin if we're fighting dragons, yuan ti or lizadrmen. But in terms of combat utility and mobility, Bard and Monk take the cake. Even if i use all my movement, bonus action dash, ashardalon tread, and feline agility, it's only a 1 turn headstart. And I'm melee, do i lack a lot of my combat utility spells.
My point is, the monk is not even MEANT to be taking hits. You're a skirmisher, not a frontline combatant. You're supposed to go after spellcasters and support enemies, not the big mf's who bonk for 30 dmg on average.
THAT'S RIGHT! I WAS A MONK SIMP ALL ALONG! *BWAHAHAHAHAHA* (cries)
Ultimate monk build guide on patreon as a bonus video, spoiler alert, it's not way of the open palm.
My favorite is shadow monk
I think an interesting way to fix the Ki Point issue is to make the Level 20 ability available at level 6 or 8 and have it upgrade at level 12/14. That way even if you don't take a short rest, you still are able to use your features is need be.
Monks just need a proper rework. Mining something like Legend of the Condor Heroes for ideas or the modern Wushu Fantasy light novels would be a great start.
My favorite monk is the Gunk where the monk doesn’t use martial arts and just stays out of range with their high movement using Ki-Fueled Strikes with Sharpshooter with a gun.
Is it the way of mercy?
Something that helps monks are of course, items.Take the amulet of health making a 19 (+4) to your con boosting your health. that item can really help keep monks survive without having to put any effort into con as most classes would rather put it in two other types of stats instead of con. Yes there really isn't much help item wise for key points, however depending on how you build your monk there will always be items that can help your monk survive longer or whatever your worried about.
My first ever D&D character was a monk, and during the first game, we'd just reached level 6 before we were confronted by a werewolf. I was pretty much the only one able to challenge it, as my strikes counted as magical now and wouldn't be resisted/nullified, unlike everyone else (we had one or two casters, but they were low on slots at the time).
To be honest by level 6 your fighter and rogue (i don’t know your party composition) should have had magical weapons.
@@reptiliangeek8414 My DM was very much into hardcore gameplay. I don't think we ever had magic weapons that campaign, even at level 10. Just regular weapons and spells, though by that point I'd retired my monk to switch to cleric.
@@drunkenrobot7061 To be honest that shows a DM that utilizes a system in a wrong way that just turns out to make the monk stronger.
It's a bit frustrating because you make excellent points, but there's a real underlying problem with how WOTC built monks. Having them be at once, too fragile and too limited in their Chassis to be flexible to compensate means most monk players are either relying almost entirely on subclass features or ... dropping to the ground because they have few ways to reliably fight from range. I love their concept, and bend over backwards to make my monk player feel just as viable, but Wotc just really dropped the ball here. AT LEAST make their hit die a d10 or d12 and make them a genuine threat. Still, this was a good video, and you definitely highlight the parts of monks that I enjoy! I just hope WIzards can do something to make them more consistent and fun to play!
>fragile, unflexible, limited
Yeah, no you couldnt pick worse words to describe monk. If you wanted to go with no access to nova outside of capstones, sure. Average/baseline level dpr for melee with low feat options for changing that? Again fair. But you could drop a monk to a D6 and they would still be more survivable than rangers and rogues. Not to mention that they have the most reliable cc due to out of the 60~ish enemies that have stun immunity, only 9 arent swarms or named final adventure bosses (or shit like avatars and demon lords). Thats 9 out of over 2600+ published enemies.
@@ANDELE3025 Bruh the Monk is literally put in a position with a hit die less than is appropriate and can't even diversify their attack styles to make up for it. Monk weapons are pointlessly limited and Stunning strike is only reliable against spellcasters. High level DnD is fun, monk included, but a class shouldn't have to wait till level 9 to give proper room for player expression
@@fenrirlives2226 Stunning strike effectively works half the time on average, thats better than the probability of hold spells.
And no. A D8 works for the cleric, warlock and rogue in melee, it works for the monk as well. If you want to know what hit die isnt appropriate for melee kiter, its a D4.
Monk weapons exist solely so that monks can pick up weapons at all as your unarmed strikes are more efficient 90% of the time while holding 2 other magic items or even options such as caltrops, alch fire, hunting trap, restrains, etc (remember unarmed strikes dont require a free hand).
And sure, then give spellcasters 4 1st level slots and 3 2nd level slots at 3 as well if you feel like "diversity of attack styles" is in any way related to resources a day.
@@ANDELE3025 That's the crux of my problem, Rogues Clerics and Warlocks in melee have more reliable tools to get them out of or through the adversity of that combat position, monks have to hope their subclass gives them the tools to not die or they have to play overly cautious. This wouldn't be a problem if monk weapons had a more diverse array of attack style (player expression) that drew upon any number of exotic or monastic weapons used by real life martial artists. As it stands, skirmishing all they can do reliably, and that role is frankly underdeveloped in anything but larger scale parties. You can make a decent dodge tank with specific builds, but my point is that monk COULD be so much better, and there'd seriously be no downside to giving them those improvements other than pulling WOTC's teeth for a reprint
@@fenrirlives2226 Ah yes, attacking with a d8 weapon with the same modifier is so vastly different from attacking with a d8 weapon with the exact same modifier.
They are mathematically balanced. Them having 1 more base dud of a subclass across 3 splatbooks than others doesnt make the class nor the rest of the subclasses weaker.
Also IRL martial arts mostly used just a fucking stick because it started as and still is just a sport and you can still use darts, shortswords, etc as some irl trained, thats the same "array of attacks" as any other melee.
I would love to see a series like this for all the other classes analysing why they specifically are considered good/bad
Okay. I love the way you made this. Though not a perfect guide. It's a very good summary of the things monks are capable of. Even when I have never played one I might consider doing it on the near future. Can you make more of these kind of video's? I would really help me think of possible characters to make and I'm sure more people would like this too. 😎
I think it's less about giving Monks more Ki Points in the early game, and giving them more resources (or replacing ki-costing ones) that don't use Ki Points. At first it sucks being Level 3 and having so few, Level 8 you're using them often but still have to be careful, and Level 14 you have more than plenty. It's that change over time in *how* you spend your Ki Points that really feels amazing.
But also, think about what's consuming Ki Points before reaching Level 14(Ignoring Optional Stuff)
Flurry of Blows(1), Patient Defense(1), Step of the Wind(1), Deflect Missiles Throwing Back(1), Stunning Strike(1).
In my opinion Step of the Wind should be free, thus not letting Monks Hide as a bonus action like Rogues do. However, you have the option to make an Unarmed Strike if you expend a ki point.
But otherwise... no, it's all fine. FoB and PD both require a bonus action and thus can only be used once per turn. If you're using DM that only costs a Reaction, and only costs anything if you throw it back. Stunning Strike is openly overpowered, and you're using ONE OF YOUR FIVE+ KI POINTS TO POTENTIALLY TAKE AWAY AN ENEMY'S TURN.
If we're talking worst case scenario with ki points, let's look at Level 2 with only 2 measly ki points. That's two turns of combat to do "Something Cool". Wanna deal an extra 1d4 + 2 damage this turn? Go ahead. At low levels, an extra 4-5 damage is A LOT. Heck, a monk weapon hitting + 2 unarmed strikes all hitting can take out two goblins in a turn.
It's a trap! What do you do?!? You hit the goblin nearest to you with your quarterstaff and luckily take it out in one hit. Then what as 3 crossbows train on you?.... Patient Defense. All of them miss and you're left feeling badass as hell.
These "Something Cool" moments change with time. Because now at higher levels, you're not dealing 1d4+2 extra damage and admittedly making a dent. You're spending 5 ki points to attack all 4 cultists around you and stun them all... and planning to do the same next turn.
Honestly I feel like four changes could make the Monk more optimization viable:
1: d10 hit die, because why the fuck wouldn’t they?
2: Make Ki double proficiency (more at early levels, less at later levels)
3: Upgrade basic abilities (gives Monks a power upgrade to counter the Ki point downgrade at lower levels)
4: Give Monk’s proficiency with all weapons that lack the heavy or special properties. You shouldn’t need to pick a race for your weapons to be viable early game.
give this video a look its a great revision of monk that I feel solves a lot of the problems monk gets ruclips.net/video/E59Cp_cK8v8/видео.html
Or 1. Keep it d8 as its just 1 hp a level.
2. Reduce the number of things that need a ki point, like having stunning strike be free but just once a turn, and maybe remove flurry of blows just give them a 3rd attack at level 11.
3. Change it so they can use wisdom in place of dex for attack, damage and AC give them a Ac bonus that scales with proficiency bonus growth but is separate so its not a multiclass dip thing.
4. Start hand to hand damage off at d8 and scale at the same rate finishing at 2d8, allow the character to add either the finesse or heavy property to their damage each round by changing styles when it scales to d10 damage, have their attacks be considered weapons so feats/spells etc that require it to be a weapon work with them.
Also more ASIs. Monks are the most reliant class on their ability scores (paladins need str con and cha too but cha is more of a bonus on a good build wereas monks basically need wis, dex, and con to be decent). Honestly just give them the same ASIs fighters get.
the double proficiency only reallly helps for the very early levels 1 and 2. the rest it either barely helps, is the same or actually hurts, lvls 2 and 5 are only one better off lvls 4 and 6 are the same 7+ is worse. I would honestly say that barely helps the early game slightly over punishes the late game and worst of all absolutel cripples the mid 8-12 game
2. Add wisdom modifier to ki point or, as an action, spend hit die to instead regain ki point.
3.
Increases flurry of blows to three strikes at 10, and four at 20.
Patient defense gives temporary hit point equal to martial art die at 10, martial art die + monk level at 20 (both last only until the start of your turn).
Step of the wind. Both benefit of dash and disengage at 10 (and triple the jump distance), doesn’t require bonus action at 20 similar to tabaxi race feature (quadruple the jump distance)
4. Probably only gives that option to kensei.
Really looking forward to breaking out a Plasmoid Monk one of these days - probably Drunken Master. Squeeze through anything an inch wide (since no need to carry weapons or armor), advantage to initiate or escape grapples, and the flavor of pseudopods of fury.
Great video, especially as I've just made a Monk character. It's a strength based half orc monk which started with 2 levels of barbarian before multi classing in to monk. This gives me the weapon proficiency and a earlier boost in hit points. Plus rage to half the early damage.
The flavor is that she was an angy outcast to goes to a monastery to lean control through martial arts.
It might not be the technical best build but it a character I really connect with.
"This is where the reputation of monks being underpowered really starts to come through... by virtue of comparison."
Yep, monks are good, until you compare them to every single class in the game.
I will always love my monks and my rogues in every game there is on the planet, including D&D5e.
Monks get to do cool stuff, even if they're also the worst class in the game. I wish all monks awesome moments in their games, and may all DMs always shoot you with projectiles once per turn so you get to deflect them. And may you waste all of a BBEG's legendary resistance with Stunning Strike.
Go do that slowfall from cliffs and airships too, and land like Chairman Netero.
Amazed to see a Hunter x Hunter reference here!
wow, you get to have all your abilities fail to do anything to the enemy? incredible!
this is what dnd brainrot does to you.
@@mrosskne what are you going on about?
I wouldn't call Monk the worst class in a game that has 5e Ranger in it.
@@firewolfandrewb Gloomstalker would like a word.
6:18 Deflect Missile only consumes ki if you decide to do the attack. The damage reduction does not cost ki.
That's what he said.
"We are already giving up a reaction to catch the thing, and we must spend a ki point just to throw it back".
@@hellfrozenphoenix13 you don't though you can catch it and just leave it be it doesn't require the need to throw it back
imagine you grab an arrow out of the air, look at the creature that just shot it and break it, I would ask for a Dex(Intimidation) Check just for the badassery
@@c00KieDuderoo I'd allow it. :)
@@silverazrael9562 you really didn’t bother reading his comment did you?
Yep, setting Ki Points to level + WIS MOD (or CON MOD) would fix the monk alright. Such a simple elegant solution.
It'd take a lot more than that for them to be a good class, but it's a nice start.
I was thinking Prof bonus x wisdom mod
Another thing holding monks back is bonus action competition. A few simple changes could really help here. For example, making Step of the Wind not use a BA, but can only be used once per turn, or having Flurry of Blows add the extra unarmed strike to your Attack action instead of the bonus action (functionally identical if you use your BA to make your Martial Arts BA attack, but you can choose to use it on something else instead). Patient Defense is actually pretty strong, though, and doesn't need any change.
One way I buffed Perfect Self is that it makes you regain 1 ki at the start of each turn if you have less than 4. This way, you're never truly out of ki.
The worst kick in the pants about monk is needing Step of the Wind to double their jump distance… which puts them on par with a fighter in full plate that's just doing a normal jump, because you have 8 Strength and the fighter has 16, and you do not get a feature that lets you use Dexterity in place of Strength to calculate jump distance (even though you should).
I don't find that monk damage drops off _that_ much when you rely primarily on Martial Arts instead of Flurry of Blows… but it _does_ hurt needing your ki points for _everything_ when you get so few of them. There's also the part where any time you use Patient Defence or Step of the Wind, you not only aren't using Flurry of Blows that round, you're not even using the bonus attack from Martial Arts.
I feel like something needs to be said that many folks in these discussions need to hear
Being a "bad" DnD class does not make you a hindrance to a group unless the campaign is designed specifically around meta game bullshit. All the classes are rad as hell and can do a lot of cool things
Imo, monks are cool because they can fill a couple different party gaps decently well.
What gaps do they fill well in your games? I tend to find one of their weaknesses is they don't excel more than other classes at anything in particular.
I can see scouting/infiltration being a strength due to their high speed and relatively good stealth and perception. But even that they are far from the best (rogue, druid, ranger and bard probably all beat them). I'm not sure if they even get close on any other roles. What am I missing?
NB. I do agree that they are very thematically cool and in many games they are fine, just not very special most of the time. Which given their awesome theme is all the more disappointing.
Rangers can fill more gaps than Monk though, even during PHB era:
Skill checks, Exploration, DPR (cbe + ss, which monk can't utilize well pre Xanathar's Kensei), Battlefield Control + Summoning (they get some of the best 2nd and 3rd level druid spells and those are the best non-Polymorph druid spells, imo), Healer, and Stealth (+10 to the entire party).
Yeah if Rangers got trashed for only being decent pre-Tasha's, is it really surprising that an even more subpar class would be treated worse?
Monks should have multiple reactions to dodge attacks and counter attack
Multiple reactions would make the class Stand out and help the monk/neo fantasy.
Maybe based on half of Proficiency bonus and you get it at lvl 4/5 or a table like Wild shape.
Would also make deflect missiles SOOOO much better!
That'd be fucking sick.
Hoping to get into a D&D game & starting as a Homebrew Monk as I fancy a challenge...
...I'd like to class the Monk class as "Difficult but Awesome" very hard to use but once you've worked out the limitations, knowing when & how to use abilities then you become virtually unstoppable!
My favorite monk build is a dex based Lizardfolk paladin taking the mobile feat.
I feel like the problem is that, speaking in the void, they are cool and competent with some things, but once you compare them to any other martial class you are utterly useless.
The other problem with monks is that their damage output plateaus around lvl 8. Its all well and good being invisible and resisting all damage but force at lvl 18 but at that point even with flurry of blows you are still not contributing much damage or even control as (as others have pointed out) stunning strike targets con and eventually all monsters just rock those.
But yeah a d10 hit dice and just a small increase in ki points should be enough to help out. You should not have fewer ki points than the battlemaster has superiority dice at the same level.
Yeah just let us add wis mod to ki, and d10 hd
I find it ridiculous that the Unarmed Fighting Style gives fighters the same damage dice at lv2 that monks get at lv11, even if they use it slightly fewer times per turn.
@@swift0sword679 that does remind me, as a capstone monks should get to add wis and dex to dmg or roll 2d10+ either for damage
needs major buff
@@o98z they still wouldnt do good damage, monks need to be less MAD and reliant on heavy investment in the class alongside added feat and multiclass options that increase their damage in order to start to be good.
love ur vids my man. great knowledge and energy
Worth mentioning that MotM made modifications to a handful of races that turned them into helpful choices for monks in the early game. All the races that used to have a "natural weapon" attack have been updated to turn those natural weapons into something that "you can use to make unarmed strikes." Additionally, the ones that were all 1d4 have been bumped up to 1d6. That means if you play a monk as an Aarakocra, Centaur, Lizardfolk, Minotaur, Satyr, Tabaxi, or Tortle you can do be doing 1d6+DEX damage with your unarmed strikes from level 1. That's a buff that you normally don't get as a monk until level 5 and it won't become irrelevant until monk level 11 when that unarmed damage bumps up to 1d8
My monk got his hands on a set of gloves of soul catching. DM said shortly after he'd never allow them in his games again. I've had to push to get items that'll up damage like upgrading the eldritch claw tattoos to do the 1d6 force damage all the time on unarmed strikes and even that made the group feel he was a little busted even though it was less egregious than a level 11 fighter with a flame tongue. People want monks to feel powerful but then when they feel powerful they earn complaints about being too powerful for a class that doesn't use weapons or armor. It's kinda a no win situation at some points.
Why didn't he just GIVE you a flame-tongue? They can be short swords, scimitars or daggers, and thus monk weapons. The entire reason behind some abilities being Unarmed Strikes only is balance so the monk DOESN'T outshine everything around him completely.
Hell you get Evasion and to dodge for a bonus action and ki-point that is really good.
You also gotta remember until fighters get their 3rd attack or go halberd/polearm you do more attacks for free. That doesn't feel great for the fighter. So straight unarmed attack upgrades are fairly powerful.
But yeah people are sometimes very dumb about: He doesn't wear armor how is his AC that high? Because he fucking dodges you idjit. Now how is the damn barbarian you may ask? Because he doesn't give a shit, he will take those hits and maybe redirect them to less important places.
*I honestly think people just haven't met anyone who actually plays monk well. They are GOOD, and they SHOULD be.*
Let's take your arguments and work through them one by one because there are rather important misconceptions you've made. Plus the random all caps and bolding does not give a very good impression on your seriousness.
First, I never said he was outshining the others, he's very much in line with the rest of the party in terms of damage and a bit better on the fight survivability. You've seemed to ignore a key point in your comment on the monk getting more attacks "for free". That is misleading as my comment specifically addressed level 11 onwards. So we'll address the monk from that point onwards.
Let's start with the class's damage potential. Monks don't get a class wide damage buff at level 11 outside of their martial arts dies stepping up from a d6 to a d8, or the rare improvement like the way of mercy monk. At that level fellow martials that are either getting another attack or getting a buff to their attack. Fighters are getting a third attack and paladins are getting improved divine smite. Rangers get a conclave feature and a 3rd level spell slot. Rogues get another 1d6 to their sneak attacks on top of reliable talent which for many rogue features makes them a guaranteed success to use in combat. The monk is a class that's starting on the back foot in terms of damage post 10.
Now lets look at items. A fighter with a greatsword gets 12d6 from the flametongue enchantment at that level before action surge. Compare that to the monk's 4d8+4d6 when they spend a ki to use a bonus action with their flametongue, which by the way takes a bonus action to activate. On paper it's just a difference of 57 average for the fighter vs 52 for the monk. However, activating the flametongue is a turn where you give up your bonus action to activate flurry of blows which is a net loss of 19 damage as compared to turns where flametongue is already active. At the end of turn 2 you're up 9 damage than where you'd be without the flametongue, if you can hit your attacks with the flametongue shortsword. Miss one of those and your damage drops dramatically. So that's a net +4.5 for the first two turns, and an additional 14 for every turn after, if there is still combat. The fighter has 24 damage on the monk turn 1 and keeps the lead going forward at 5 damage a turn. My improved Eldritch Claw Tattoos has the same net +14 a round, but doesn't front load the damage onto two attacks. With the plus +1 to unarmed strikes, that's roughly the same as the fighter using a greatsword flametongue.
Prior to level 11, a monk can have an eldritch claw tattoo and insignia of claws to get a net +2 to their unarmed strikes to emulate a rare weapon before you upgrade the tattoo.
The Gloves of Soulcatching are a legendary item, they are meant to be power. Imagine a fighter with a Flail of Tiamat or Matalotok and the gloves are less concerning as they're comparable in devastation. The gloves are a bit powerful, but at that stage of the game you're in the power fantasy stage of the adventure. It's very possible someone's got a vorpal weapon and is beheading foes left and right. I have tested a slight reduction in damage and dropping the d10s to d8s leaves the gloves feeling satisfying without being as egregious damage wise. However, the fact there is a legendary item in play should have indicated to you that this is a high level group at play and there might be other legendary items the group has.
Evasion and the occasional bonus action dodge are good defensive options. Not attack options, and they are very situational. More often than not, I'm forced to deal with con saving throws and rarely get to see dex saves. More often than not, I'm having to try and lock down the backline caster and trying to get as many stunning strikes in to keep them tied up takes priority. More often than not, I'm dealing with spells being flung my way that I can't deflect. They do not help end a battle faster, and they do not make up for the lack of damage a monk has mid to late game.
Maybe last night’s homebrew session was just a bunch of REALLY high rolls, but my 3rd level Ancestral Dragon monk (Gedrith) fought a group of giant hornets our party was losing to. One companion was paralyzed and the other was low on HP, so Gedrith decided enough was enough and charged in there with staff in hand after using his breath weapon on the previous turn. He splatted three out of five bees all by himself, the wounded fire genasi doing in the rest.
A satisfying session, to say the least.
Another big potential weakness of monks is their very limited ranged options. It's basically slings and darts, with maybe the occasional dagger/javelin/hand axe. Of course, how much of an issue this is highly depends on the specifics of your game and there are subclasses that give some more options. I know I've found myself in situations at lower levels like 4/5-ish where we were fighting something flying and...I basically couldn't do shit except toss a few darts at it and hope for the best, lol. The character is a 4 elements monk, btw, with only Shape the Flowing River at this point. It was great for lighting the room of sleeping orcs on fire, then holding the door shut with a huge block of ice, though.
Hello! Even though it is eleven months late, I have some suggestions for beefing up baseline Monks that I've either thought up or found on other threads. This is just my opinion and entirely optional. Enjoy!
Since everyone is listing their workarounds for the Monk, I thought I'd give a few suggestions ( some of which is based off of what I have read so far) . Again, this is just my opinion.
1. Allow adding wisdom modifier to Ki points. The modifier doesn't stack as one levels up, but I feel an extra 3 or 4 Ki points would help at earlier levels.
2. For Starting AC 12 + wisdom mod + dexterity mod OR Starting AC 10 + wisdom mod + dexterity mod + proficiency bonus instead so that monks can at least get closer to other martial classes. Also, a +1AC boost every two levels so long as they are not wearing armor
3. Changing the Mobile feat to a Class feature that all monks have at level 3
4. Use Dex mod for shoving, pushing, and grappling
5. If grappling, can inflict damage using wisdom mod, and proficiency bonus
6. Flurry of blows should also have wisdom mod to increase damage
7. Agree with other commenters that there should be increases to amount of Flurry of blows at higher levels (3 attacks at level 10, 4 attacks at level 15)
8. *Restore martial weapons to monks!* Full stop
9. Give a damage ability at level 11, something like furious fist that increases the number of damage dice for a number of Ki
10. Perfect Discipline moved to level 12
11. Base monk should also have healing something like spend one Ki point roll 3d6+wisdom mod hp
12. A better level 20 capstone something that really fits in with the monk theme of spiritual enlightenment like being permanently hastened, or have a +2 to the saving roll against disintegration attacks or being immune to all death spells. Something like that.
13. If they are going to keep short rest for monks, drop the time requirement to 10 minutes.
14. (Alternate option to Ki point generation) Getting Ki points back if the Monk lands a critical hit or makes three successful attacks in a row during their turn (They do not stack ). A possible reward for epic moments in game, and contributes flavor to Monks.
15. Martial arts have some form of scaling. Like 2d4+wisdom + dexterity mod at level 5, 4d4 + wisdom + dexterity at level 10, something like that.
This is just a few of the things off the top of my head plus, what I read in the comments. Perhaps I might come back a update if I have any more ideas or I see something good down below. Take care.
As a DM, I once made a Paladin Monk boss, that was effectively striking my players with supersonic fists from god. Was entertaining, and I added very little to it that didnt directly come from Paladin or Monk classes
Though, I imagine that it had stats that a player character couldn’t hope to achieve. You’d need 13 strength and ideally want high charisma, dex and wisdom.
I suppose you could go for a strength based monk and give up martial arts and unarmored movement (wear heavy armour) and dump dex, but you’ll still need a 13 for multiclassing. As A DM though, we can just give them 4 18s and have fun.
Just stacking some some good stats and make strange multi classes that otherwise would be hopelessly MAD for entertaining and unique enemies. I like it.
@@insertphrasehere15 funny enough, I actually used point buy +4 ASIs because it was a lv 17 creature
Rangers got something in Tasha’s. Monks are fun and flavorful. They just aren’t that good at anything besides being very mobile. Also there are very few feats for monks.
This is why I like Monk+Rouge multiclass. You get the cunning action, expertise, weapon proficiencies, flurry of blows, and I like the shadow monk that complements the rouge perfectly. The mobile feat also goes well with this because you basically get a free disengage along with a buff to an already great movement speed.
A good buff for monks would-be making the hit die a 1d10 and giving them extra ki points equal to you wis/proficiency modifier. I've not played it my self but I did have a friend who used these "custom rules" for a character and it was a lot of fun.
i would prefer if instead of ki points you had the same number of yin+yan points, yin for aggressive stuff like flurry or stunning strike / yan for utility and mobility stuff so you never have the feeling you are sacrificing one for the other
@@InvocareIgnis1 that's a interesting idea
The class dictates that a monk needs to be a front line combatant in order to take advantage of their abilities. Problem is that they have the lowest AC, the lowest HP, and do the least amount of damage of any martial class. If Monks were given proficiency with heavy and two handed weapons and/or a shield they would still be weaker than everything else.
I agree that as you get to level 15+ the monk gets much better because the Ki point issue recedes, but so what?
1) Most campaigns are done by then, and
2) Every class has awesome stuff at Tier 4 as well.
Level 8 tabaxi monk AC:18 average damage per round without Ki: 25 with Ki: 32 very rarely will get hit with an attack because they do not stay in front line damage, they run in smack the target around and run (with movement of 55) out without provoking because you take the mobile feat.
@@flamepulse42 AC 18 isnt very good comparatively and you cant get to 20 dex/16 wis with point buy it if you take the mobile feat (which isn't very good either). you aren't calculating to hit chance either so the dpr would be lower. for comparison a level 8 variant human fighter with crossbow expert, sharpshooter, and archery will deal 52.5 dpr without resource expenditure before adjusting for accuracy. anyone with scale/chainmail and a shield has had 18 AC since level one and can boost it to 23 with the shield spell. any ranged character or caster can avoid front line damage without needing to invest in a feat and movement increases.
I had a game where the enemies saved against every single Stunning Strike throughout the entire campaign.
But then again, they also saved against everything else and hit with nearly every attack.
For Monk Weapons, there is actually an interesting 1 handed d8 damage die simple weapon called the Yklwa. It is the same damage die as the Quarter Staff except it deals Piercing instead of Bludgeoning damage while only taking up one hand and having a short throw distance if you really need it. It is a very nice weapon to be able to take on characters who only get simple weapons because it functions like a Spear if the Spear was a good weapon.
Thank you for doing this, the monk is my favourite class in dnd (for abilities) sorcerer is my favorite class for not only magic but perfect for roleplay
So basically it all boils down to some optional rules to give to the monk to make it cool. I thought about a potential feature that the basic monk class may have that could be rather cool (probably taken at level 2-3). It is not tested (i just came up with it lol) but i think its a really good direction to go towards:
Harness Ki (Optional Level 2 Feature) = Everytime you hit a creature with an unarmed strike you can choose to harness the ki from said creature. Declare an attribute of said creature before striking (Con, Dex etc..), you gain ki points equal to the modifier of that enemy's attribute (negative attributes simply count as a +0 but the DM has to tell you their exact modifier). Once you've used this feature on a creature, you cannot use it again on that same creature for the next minute. Ki points gained in this way cannot exceed the max amount of ki points that you can normally get.
Ki Senses (Optional Level 2 Feature): You can spend 1 ki point and your bonus action to sense ki in 30 feets around you. Lasts until the start of your next turn. All creatures within range have their highest modifier declared to you. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus.
Ki Strike (Optional Level 20 Feature, overrides): You can now store ki points even if they go over the maximum amount of ki points available at your level. You lose all ki points gained in this way after a long rest. Everytime you hit an unarmed strike you can decide to spend all your ki points to add to the damage of said unarmed strike. (Potentially dealing a +1000 if you harvested ki for that much amount).
The idea behind these is that ki senses let you know what to declare when you use harness ki to get ki (works until the start of your next turn cause of opportunity attacks you may inflict on enemies). Harness ki is the main way of keeping up your ki points so that you can use all your cool class or subclass features.
And Ki strike is literally just for flavour. A monk with timeless body can actually start to harness ki from all the creatures around him and just store a fuck ton of ki, doing this they may potentially have up to a huge amount (unless they of course decide to long rest). the idea that with enough time and meditation you could literally destroy the earth with one punch is very monk like. The only issue with this last one is that, because you can harness ki every minute you may actually manage to get a lot of energy to oneshot a boss in less than a day which requires to rebalance some numbers around (imagine a party of 5 people at level 20. Each of them must have at least a +5 stat. This means that a monk can harness their ki and get 25 ki every minute. in 10 minutes thats basically 250 ki and in an hour thats 1500 ki. Completely busted of course. The Harness ki feature could be limited to be used a number of time equal to proficiency bonus but meh i dont like that idea too much.)
Also ki strike feels like goku trying to gather the energy of the creatures around him to create the Genki Dama. Very cool.
Personally the monk is an amazing class to start dnd with and and still an amazing class if your a veteran player.
The house rule with KI points that I allow when DMing and also with in our group is: monk level + wis or cha modifier. It balances out the KI point issue in early game.
I love the adjustment for the ki points and would love if they do that based on. Wis mod or even prof. Mod for more ki
I personally love playing as a monk. I once played in a one shot where the party consisted of 2 monks, a fighter and a bard. The final boss was an adolescent red dragon and the only ones who did any damage to it were the monks because the fighter and bard both failed their saves and became frightened of it.
Halfling Monk Way of the Kensai. At level 10 now, she is pretty amazing and when she was recently separated from the party, the battlefield travel and her darts, YES, darts, were sorely missed.
My last character was a Halfling Monk too! Saved the world, slew some demons, yada yada yada! 🤣
That’s awesome. Kensei is great for adding damage to attacks. As a half king, you take a tiny speed penalty, but get to move through bloody hostile spaces!
May your monks bring peace to the realm by bringing peace to your enemies. Eternal peace MUAHAHAHAHA!
Yeah but a fighter with darts who then takes a couple levels in ranger is going to do sooo much more damage.
@@jameshernandez4112 Some of us play with flavor and more about story and intrigue than the raw game mechanics. I know I can squeeze extra damage out by changing things, but I like flavor and it usually pays off in one way or another.
ooooooomg i'm so glad you said halfling monk. I did the same thing my first playthrough. It's a fucking wild ride. and yes...the darts. at first i thought they were stupid....but i learned. Dick Darts....saved liiiiives.
Played a Shadow Monk last game and got to level 13 before we wrapped. After a small argument the DM allowed me bonus KI based on Wisdom bonus as you mentioned, helped a lot in the lower levels. I also used the Quarterstaff two handed and then punched offhand as needed (how hard is it to take one hand off and smack someone). After a bit of in game research, I was able to make a bunch of tremorsense potions and then combined with the darkness globe I made as a shadow monk, I was able to control the battlefield very well.
Little thing you missed about ki-feuled attack: You can hit someone with a monk weapon, which can mean a longsword because of dedicated weapon
"Dedicated Weapon" is an optional rule so can't be counted on.
"Most broken level 5 ability in the game." Are we playing the same game? Conjure Animals, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians, the Paladin's Aura of protection in one more level- A Ki-eating ability based on the often-strong Con save of monsters, with a DC based on the Wisdom you probably didn't increase over Dexterity. Really, Stunning Strike is the only reason anyone still defends Monk, and it isn't even that good. Not a TERRIBLE ability, but not nearly enough to make up for Monk's other flaws. The class really needs a buff (maybe the same number of ASIs as Fighter, for starters).
For real man whenever I see people praising stunning strike I assume they never saw a controller build before. Not only can spells can target multiple creatures more reliability and barely wasting any resource, but if you just want to have a class to just burn legendary resistance, because let’s be real that’s the only good thing with stunning strike lol, then you’re also in the wrong class.
Being another caster helps burning LR than being a monk, specially with the recent power creep with the new book and spells! A particular spell being Psychic Lance, that targets intelligence(worst save for all monsters) no concentration, and incapacites if fails! No monster in the game is inmune to incap and doesn’t matter if the enemy isn’t stunned, you just want to make sure they don’t attack at all.
The ASIs would absolutely help, but won’t really solve the monk’s over reliance on Stunning Strike
@@erikwilliams1562 Definitely not. Tinkering with Monk is something I've thought/read a lot about, and really they need some fairly considerable reworks. Small tweaks can help, but getting it in a good place would take more than just tuning some numbers.
You mentioned 3 spells and an ability that doesn’t even come at level 5. Are we playing the same game? Cause iirc a spell is not an ability, and level 6 is not level 5. You could have said something like rogue’s uncanny dodge
@@unstable7505 Yes, I mentioned spells. Don't see how they don't count- The only thing most full spellcasters get for level 5 IS third level spells. You're really arguing semantics if you don't count third spells as a "Wizard/Cleric/Bard/etc 5th level ability."
1:35 To be fair, a lot of classes take until level 2 to get going. Indeed, this is actually one of the main problems with the Ranger class (its level 1 features are useless). A lot of classes take until level 2 to really get to what they're all about.
Tashas has flipped that rangers are now amazing level one
Is this a series on every class?? Because I’d like that :)