For those who've gone through the Dutch education system, what is your experience/opinion? TYPO CORRECTION, at 02:49 that should be "VWO" and also at 02:53. Sorry about missing that! Also, shout out to my guy Tygo www.youtube.com/@Tygootten and his friend Justin for helping behind the lens! Go check out his channel :)
Yes it is a problematic system. In my case (which was a long time ago) I scored very high on the standardized test, however those tests are only one input, and I ended up on track I didn't really want to be on. Ironically, it contributed to me ending up in the USA. Unfortunately, adults such as the teachers and parents can override those results and direct the child to a different track. At the age when the standardized testing is performed the child cannot really express their desires and have to depend largely on the parent's ability to manage that the right decisions are made for the child's future, which is not always something the parents are able to. I think overall the Dutch system is a good one, but the rigidness of the tracks and how these standardized tests influence a child's future at such early age is not a good aspect of the Dutch system.
Depends on how you look at it. Looking at the result of what The Netherlands is in an international context: Highly economically, technologically, and socially advanced (and super rich, not "all important" but still...). The result of this system is that we're one of the most successful countries in the world (Sorry USA your rich people may be richer but your poor people are very, very, very poor.) That is in part because of the way we educate (read: structure/classify) people. The way this country works/is organised, structured, and designed it's all a result of this education system. I'm not saying the system doesn't have flaws. Personally I fare very well in this system but up close, in my family my sibling didn't fare well. The system couldn't proces people like like him. And it's very Dutch to than think: You 'as a person' failed!! No, the system failed him and many others like him. Whenever a system becomes the norm there are outliers who then think: There is something wrong with me. And that just isn't the case (and the Netherlands is shifting in this regard. Even if it hasn't changed physically yet.) But... wokeness is real and everywhere: in the most positive sense. Minorities are being heard! Something that we can definitely learn from, say the USA is: seeing an artistic scholar, a sport scholarship as being different BUT EQUAL to a science scholarship or an econometrics scholar. People like Beyonce or Lebron James wouldn't survive our system and they wouldn't be able to flourish in it because our national identity (not our international identity, cause we're fans) doesn't really see their gifts/talents as scientifically and economically valid or worthwhile in an of itself. There is a Dutch-template over-appreciation of one type of person the: economics, manager, bank, mathematics, science, Microsoft Excel person and an under-appreciation of people who aren't like that. "That's not a real job Karen, that's a hobby!" Sums it up nicely =)
I started at Havo, but in the first year they noticed I could do more so my secondary school offered me to go to Vwo. So the second year I started doing Vwo. At the end, did I do something with my education? No. I started doing university afterwards, wasn't for me. Dropped out and went to HBO, which better fitted me but due to Corona my mental went backwards quite quickly so I dropped out of it to. Now I am just working 40 hours a week at a job where I was studying for and part of my "work" is studying and I am getting paid for that. For the part of choosing a profile early, if you don't know what you want to do. You can pick a quite general profile that allowes you to do anything after secondary school. Also even if you don't like the direction you went, you still have experience and knowledge. Employers are still interested, if you say I learned A, but I want to do B. That paper of you being able to come in school for so many years and suceeding is most often enough to get the job and start working/learning at the job. With the exceptions like being a doctor etc. Some jobs you really need an eduction for.
It used to be better than it is now. I consider the education I got to be the dutch education at the peak of it's performance. When I got into it, it was improving, when i finished it, it was declining. I especially loved the fact that I was quite free to choose the disciplines, as only Dutch was mandatory and English unless you already picked two foreign languages. It gave met the oppertunity to choose math B (mainly about functions and their derrivitives and integrals) as well as math A (mainly statististics and logistics), something that's impossible to choose now since the change to preformatted profiles where you can only pick one of four profiles.
Being Dutch and 17, there are two important points you and the people in the videos missed, probably because they're just not that young anymore; 1 Scholengemeentschappen. These are schools that have multiple levels of educations in one school. This makes it very easy to switches levels if you were put in the wrong class. It's why first grad secondary school is called 'brugklas' because so many people switch. It's pretty normal for people to switch in that first year. Even in later years, if one level turns out to be too difficult, there a lot of options for you to switch around. The girl complained about higher eduction, which is a totally different story, but in secondary, the three level system although not perfect, shouldn't be much of a problem and is very moveable if your on a scholengemeentschap. (Gymnasium or simple schools with only one level are another story though. It was hardbreaking when I had a friend who couldn't keep up with gymnasium-level and had to move schools. But that's the risk of sending your child to a simple school/gymnasium. There are probably more scholengemeentschappen in your neighbourhood than these 'simple schools' so that's not really a valid arguement against the three level system.) 2 Recently, the weight of the CITO-test has been cast away. Now, the Cito is only used as a help for the teacher. Now, it's teacher, student and parents who decide. Back in the day is would be like 75% cito and 25% teacher, student and parents. But now it's more like 75% parents, teacher and student and 25% cito or cito is not even used at all in the advice that the teachers give to the parents about to which secondary school level their child should go. Of course, the system still isn't 100% fair and perfect and you could ask questions about when 'the division' should begin. But personally, I'm very gladfull for doing gymnasium instead of 'aceing secondary school' like I hear about from Americans.
In a way however the CITO score can be more fair sometimes then teachers, teachers can give people a lower advice then their CITO score was, when the CITO score becomes less important it means those scenario's happen more often
Mijn zoon zit op een school waar je de vaken kan volgen op wat je aan kan. Dus bijvoorbeeld Nederlands, Engels op theoretische leerweg en wiskunde op gemengde leerweg. De leerlingen maken zelf hun rooster en kunnen 6 studie uren inzetten op vakken waar ze meer uitleg voor willen In het tweede jaar kies je vakken waar je examens in wil doen maar dat zijn er meer dan je nodig hebt. In leer jaar 3 kies je definitief. Ze hebben ook 1 extra examen zo dat je later kan door stromen naar HBO. We spreken niet meer van hoger of lager maar een andere leerweg. Op deze school leer je ook veel buiten de school door al lessen te volgen op het MBO, HBO maar ook bij bedrijven zodat ze kennis maken met de keuzes. Mijn zoon ging met 11 jaar naar de brugklas nu is hij 13 jaar en gaat naar de derde. Veelste jong nog om te weten wat hij later wil gaan doen. Daarom voor een school gekozen waar meer kan. Maar ook spannen omdat het heel anders is dan het ouderwetse. Mijn zoon ging als enige naar die school maar het is de goede keuze geweest gelukkig.
@@wendyvanderfange3869 Wow Wendy, ik heb nog nooit van zo'n school in Nederland gehoord. Is dat nog steeds openbaar onderwijs? En hoe heet deze school of dit type middelbare school?
Totally agree. I wanted to go to an independent Gymnasium but because there were some doubts about my working speed, my parents put me in a scholengemeenschap, where I did Atheneum (VWO) with Latin. I think that was a very safe choice. I still could perform to my full potential but there was a safety net. Later on my brother did go to the independent Gymnasium and he was glad about that too, because he thinks that if there had been an opportunity for him to go 'down' to HAVO, he would have done that, which he would have regretted later. So yeah, it's quite easy so switch tiers when you are in a scholengemeenschap, and that is the most common form of schools nowadays. If you choose a school with just one single tier, you have to be very sure of yourself, but that type of schools is getting more and more rare. In the past there used to be much more independent MAVO (VMBO-T) schools for example. By the way, there are scholengemeenschappen with an included Gymnasium tier. Just not in the city where I went to school.
I was one of those kids who got an advice different from what my test indicated. My dad is Moroccan and my mom is Dutch. According to my test, I could do havo. Teacher's advice was mavo. They really wanted to send me to mavo. My mom fought to get me to havo. In the end, they compromised and I went to a mavo/havo class. After two years I went to havo. I finished with good grades. I went to do hbo for 1 year and after that went to university. I now have a master's degree.
Thank you for sharing your story, Saida! Nice that your parents were able to fight for what they felt was really best for you. That's something I learned in the conversation with the teacher, that that's something really important to have in this system.
Lower school level advice than aptitude happened to my daughter as well, she’s mixed race and only had 1 Cito score below A, but still no VWO advice. My daughter did the lower advice level HAVO instead of VWO bc it was a Musical Havo and she wanted time to train Dance 3/4 times a week after school. I have to add that her teacher discouraged her to audition for musical class bc she was very shy, but she got in anyway. The highschool said they didn’t need a full class of lead roles and she ended up being one of the best students. She graduated with Dance as her optional Havo course. Her Classmate with dyslexia did the VWO level despite the Havo advice at a school specialized in Dyslexia. It all depends on your priorities and how well your parents advocate for you at the schools and inform you of your options. I did explain to my daughter that if she would want to do a Science degree, it would take a bit longer. For her it was healthier to train 3/4 times a week instead of having more classes and work harder for her homework. They are both studying at HBO now, in hindsight it didn’t make a difference. Everyone can move up with the right mindset, some kids just need more time. Some (young) adults are better off with the plethora of trainings for professionals available in the Netherlands. A lot of teenagers like to be met/challenged at their intelligence level in school and would get bored in a one size fits all school system. It’s up to you, that’s what I like about this system. Never let a school advice or CITO score take your power away!
Same here. Not the university part. I did Art school. But I got into the mavo/havo group because my parents got on a warpath. I graduated havo with flying colors.
I think the test should have more weight than the advice. By a lot. I think a lot of primary school teachers are really poor judges of the capabilities of a child, and might have all kinds of biasses. I'm a Dutch guy, but grew up in a different country for the first 10 years of my life. I had the highest tests scores of my class, but got LBO/MAVO advice from my teachers. Fortunately back then parents were just allowed to ignore the advice. I did WVO with ease and a Masters in Physics.
I really miss the fact that you can quite easily go to a HAVO after completing the MAVO or VWO after completing HAVO. This path normally adds one year to the education (so going from MAVO to HAVO is 4+2 years instead of just doing HAVO in 5 years ). Some institutes (like Luzac) even allow you to do this in one year.
@@exploringtheforeign Oh it is very easy, believe me :) I "climed" from mavo to havo and then again from mbo to hbo, the other way around is also possible, it is scarily easy to put a student to a lower level if their grates aren't high enough.
@@exploringtheforeign I wouldn't say it is easy, but doable . I know a guy had a difficult time age 15 and dropped to vmbo from Havo. Age 16 finished mavo/vmbo-level4 . Went to a tec MBO , after 2 of 3 years moved up to a HBO-tec. after 3 years graduated for the Bsc engineer title . At age 20-21. And then followed a 14 month Master course of a UK tec Uni , global top 5 rank in the world in that field, which was offered as dependancy in the Netherlands. A top 5 ranked Msc engineer title at age 22. You're not gonna get that faster in NL anywhere else ! Given, after the drop to vmbo , he was very driven to the bone and ambitious to succeed. And his home situation was also an higher educated family, so it is easier to find a way than for one from a blue collar family i reckon .... (That said I know farmers sons who did the same path ..) For what I read and see : the rat race in the US to get a good scholarship at uni, or else to pay ridiculous college fees is a lot tougher in my impression .... Especially for lower class students. And contrary to the american dream myth, there is nowadays more upward mobility in Europe than the US ... which is a sign ... That said : It was really bad decision to scrap the 'Study Finance' allowance for studentsfor full loans. Especially for lower income , lower class that is a lot more difficult. (Last year it was installed again. ). And in general life for young people is a lot more difficult the past decade in NL too .. (especially without wealthy parents ..). NB : In the past there was the LTS , 'Lower Technical School' , instead of the more generalistic vmbo. A lot of employers and companies want the LTS-MTS school line back , because it developed excellent trades people . They delivered very well skilled carpenters, bricklayers , mechanics, machine controllers etc, at a better level and more in line with industry demand than nowadays with the more generalistic vmbo. It was more in line with the very professional trades school system in Germany. The level was much higher than in the current generalistic system in NL (and als better than what the USA develop in vocational trades ...). And actually these skilled trades are nowadays more in demand and with similar, or even higher, salaries as a lot of college graduates ! (My brother has never been 'in between jobs' , for example ). So the 'bad press' of following vmbo-mbo is not correcct !!
I am one of those who started at VMBO and through MBO made it to HBO. For me this has surely been an advantage, because I am one of the few that has a HBO degree backed up with a lot of practical skills and experience. So I do think, your chances are not decided at the age of 11 or 12. It's your own intelligence and motivation to reach a certain level. Next to that, I must say that I had the pleasure to work for employers who supported a good education.
Yes same for me currently doing HBO and at the end of my second year and only 20 with a MBO diploma already in the pocket adding more value to me due to internships and the things I learned at my MBO
To be honest, I think it's incredibly fair. More so than the American system which is 'one size fits all' until you finish highschool. Reality is, not all students are equally good at learning from books. Forcing students to tackle studies way above their abilities will just ruin them. Likewise, not challenging the more booksmart students isn't good either. Essentially, the Dutch system attempts to deliver 'maatwerk': education geared towards each and every individual student. That doesn't mean it's perfect, obviously. The video mentioned that switching 'level' or 'profile' can be quite hard. That should be made easier. But even as is, I think the Dutch education system is one of the best in the world.
But in the US you can take classes at higher or lower levels. If you are good at math, you could take advanced math for example. I think that is better in a way, because in the dutch system if you go to havo, for example and you are good at math, it's gonna be too easy for you, but you could be bad at languages and have to struggle through 3 years of havo level french and german that you will never use in your future tech career. You might even be so bad at language that you fail havo and have to drop down to mavo, forcing you to have to take a longer path to where you want to be. It can also make you feel really stupid, since people often talk down to the lower levels. If you could have just dropped down a level in those language courses you could have still gotten your diploma, since you don't need one of those languages to graduate. I do think it's good that there is more focus on practical education on the lower levels though.
@@ST-vt4nuSo the thing in HAVO and VWO you choose your profile in 3th grade of highschool when your around 15 and I believe you choose your profile in 2nd grade on mavo. With these profiles you don't have total freedom with which subjects you choose but you do have some options. For example when you're not good in math on vwo you can choose an easier kind of math and on havo and mavo you can choose to drop it. It's the same thing for languages. For example I was shit in languages so I didn't do a third language, Dutch and English cant be dropped.
@@ST-vt4nuthat's not entirely true. In the Dutch system for vwo for example there are 4 different courses of math. In order of difficulty (from easy to hard) Math C, A, B, D (confusing right?). This also is the case in havo and vmbo, but i don't know to which extend. For example, I doubt that there is a Math D class at havo and vmbo. Furthermore, there are also 4 profiles at vwo and havo (i don't know for vmbo), which start from the 4th year (age 15/16) and each focus on a different path. N&T main focus is physics; N&G is bioligy; E&M is economy and C&M is culture. The details differ per highschool. Lastly there are 'loose' choices. Like weather you choose German or French or weather you take 1 or 2 extra courses that arent in your profile. Again, highschool dependent.
@@PEGGY18MAFIA i disagree that there is a difficulty order with the types of math. A and B are just different, not one inherently meant to be easier or more difficult than the other. i personally think B is easier but it depends per person. D is basically meant to be "B and a bit of A but harder" (and yes you can do D at havo, though a lot of it are thing that vwo includes at B). and D can also only be done if you also do B. what C is i have no idea. i heared it exists but i have never been to a school that teaches it or have i heared about a student who studies it... also the profiles are very customisable. each has only a couple of mandatory subject, then a few that you can choose from a list based on profile and then some open space so if you really want to do history with N&T you can do that for example. i did N&T but my combination of subject coincidentally also makes a valid N&G profile so i could do a study based on N&G if wanted to (i dont, but i could)
So I moved to the Netherlands from Ghana at the age of 15 years. When I got there I had to take a test to start school. I was told I was going to do a math test. What kind of math test they didn’t tell me for me to prepare. Coming from an English speaking country I took the math test and they put me at VBO. I started school in January 1991. Learning Dutch 4 hours back to back everyday. At the age of 15 years learning Dutch was extremely difficult for. In my 3rd year I was advised to do MAVO because VBO was under my level. All things they were teaching I was already taught back in Ghana. Because of the language barrier I felt like I wasted 3 years (instead of 4 years) of my life learning the same thing I was already taught. I finished VBO in 2000 and started MBO which I completed in 3 years. Still the language was hard for me. I started HBO in 2003 and decided I was going to do an English course because honestly speaking I felts like if I used the Dutch language I wouldn’t get to where I wanted. I graduated in 2007 with my bachelor degree. In 2011 I decided I wanted to get my masters degree. I had do a pre-master and then the real masters which I graduated in 2013. I’m giving you the timeline of my education. 3 years VBO, 3 years MBO, 4 years HBO and 2 years (University education: pre-master and master) making a total of 12 years education in the Dutch education system is not easy. Only if you are really motivated or have a support system pushing you do do your best will make your finish your education. Most of my friends (who we all started in 1996 when we came from Ghana and other countries) dropped out from school at an earlier stage. I feel like the education system is too complicated and very long for most people who are considered low level students. Lucky for me I came from educated family. There was always motivation and people always wanted to know about your school progress so it pushes me to also go. Now I live in New Jersey. I have a good job with my education from the Netherlands. The Dutch education systems is good but there are flaws which should be put under the microscope especially for foreigners who come in at a young age
Well. Ik seems too me a great deal of your problemen were because you didn’t speak dutch naturally, so you had a difficult time understanding what you were teached. If i would emigratie to a country which language I do not speak, and I would learn their language, I would have a hard time as well. It would be quite strange that you would be teached in another language, say English, in the Netherlands. I think it wasn’t primarily the system you had trouble with, it was another language than you spoke naturally.
For me, coming from primary school going to secondary school (middelbaar onderwijs) it was such a relief to be among people who felt more like my kind. I was the odd one out in primary school. The different education level fitted me much better and the people in the new school also. There are simply big differences between groups of kids, their social skills, their interests, their behaviours...
Same here, I can't imagine spending another 6 years in a class where all levels are combined. My "brugklas" existed of mavo-havo and havo -vwo level kids, I got straight up VWO advice, our classes sometimes went so slowly, I was happy to get to a VWO -class in year 3.
I went from Mavo all the way to university, which I guess shows the strenghts and weaknesses of our system. At 12 I wasn't quite ready for highschool or needed more support, but I was able to work my way up anyway. Obviously this took longer, so it could only happen because my parents were willing and able to support me.
I may be an exception, but I never thought the school choice came too early in life for me. As a mediocre student school was always hard work. I did primary school (basisschool), secondary school (MAVO, now called VMBO I believe), MBO (MTS, middle vocational technical school) and HBO (HTS, higher vocational technical school). It was not an easy school course, lots of ups and downs, but every school came on the right time and was on the right pace for me. And I had a upward career, I have a great technical job, with good earnings, in construction, two days a week on building sites and the rest on the office. I wouldn’t want another career and I was very lucky participating in the Dutch school system. So school choice too early? Not for me.
My teachers told me I wasn't the brightest kid in the class, as they sent me off to Vmbo-t. What they didn't know is that I had a rough childhood which made studying virtually impossible for me at that age. My teacher told me (as a 12 year old kid) that I scored very underwhelming on my Cito and that I was probably not gonna be "anything special" in life career-wise. I spent the majority of my life thinking I was "dumb" because of this. Thankfully my therapist advised me to do an IQ test a few years ago. Only then did I realise I was not stupid at all, I was gifted even. I worked my way up ever since then (which costed me a lot of time and money). I'm now studying Psychology at a university, and I couldn't be happier. Crazy how the misjudgement of one single teacher from when you where 12 can have such a big impact on someone. This system is flawed, especially for kids who are a little different.
It's crazy how harsh they said that too, like they clearly were just being mean at this point. All they needed to say is 'it is a bit on the lower side, but you could always still work your way up' or anything along those lines. Saying you will never be anything special is so fucked to say to anyone but especially a kid. We suck up what adults say like a sponge at that age and it gets ingrained into us. I'm glad you went to therapy and discovered you are much more than the self-image you had!
But wouldn't you find out that the level was too low when you was placed in VMBO-TL from the getgo? After two years you can get to havo I think. Maybe VWO was just a bit too much because of the things you where experiencing and you would do the route backwards, which is far worse... I don't think the schoolsystem is wrong here, The fact that the teacher said that you werent the brightest and all that is just rude and mean and I do not agree with that ;). The advice though: turn it around and think that climbing up the schoolsystem is far better than falling down.
I really think calling it unfair is harsh.I do definitely agree that at 12 years old most kids don't know what their future will be like, but thanks to experiences from personal life and from daytrips with school, I definitely had an idea which direction I wanted to go and the system made it possible to focus on the right subjects and not have to worry about things that weren't relevant for where I wanted to get. Since there are still opportunities to change, I think it's great that children are given the choice early on, but preparing for the choice is an essential part of that, and I do have the feeling that isn't as good anymore as it was in the 80s
I always hear people make the things mentioned in this video into very big theoretical issues(especially the advice at primary school), but in practice I've never seen or heard any of these things be actual big issues. In most cases, the worst thing is that you have to study an additional year. And let's face it, most people won't mind that. Especially in hindsight. In practice it's also pretty easy to switch. Or just look at my sister. She hasn't finish middle school(dropped out in the second year). She does however have two university degrees. She did 2 years of middle school, 4 years MBO, 1 year HBO and 4+1 year of university. That's 12 years in total. Meanwhile the fastest normal route is: 6 years of VWO + 4+1 years of university is 11 years. Now sure, that's a rather unconventional route, but it does show the possibilities. Also, you don't need to finish HBO to get to university. So the issue with the girl in the video isn't so much the education system, but more her not knowing what she wants and/or not planning her school career. The fact that she finished something and then started thinking she can do more, simply isn't an issue any school system can fix. I do agree with the guy that says that we're too focused on 'higher' = better(at ~7:25). It's even baked into the language itself. If you want to be a carpenter you're 'lower educated'. That's just a really poor way of looking at things imo. That teacher also has some good points, though I feel most of those were minor issues at best. The problem with a lot of those points was also that I don't really see a way around those issues. If your parents don't(or can't) invest in you, you'll both be a worse student and also come across as an even worse student. I don't think that's something a school system can fix, unless of course you remove difficulty distinctions and throw everyone onto one heap -- which gets you a whole lot of new problems and throws away the entire principle our schooling system in based on. Overall I feel the education system is pretty good and that with some tweaks it could be even better. I at least don't think we have big structural issues like the education system in the US, where schools are paid by district the school is based in(poor neighborhood = bad school) and where you have to go to the school in your district.
In 5th and 6th VWO we had a number of HAVO students who wanted to go to university, and they all made it. I myself had to double one year in VWO which meant that the path we took was exactly the same number in years. In university there were students who started with VMBO, did MBO, worked for a few years, did HBO (part-time) and ended up at university. Their path was different, but their final position was the same. And they had far more practical knowledge compared to those who did VWO, like me. During my career, I saw a lot of co-workers who stepped up one or two levels, who did HBO next to their job and went to university afterwards. Also, one of my co-workers was with me in primary school, and struggled with theory. In VMBO he became a skilled carpenter, and at work he was very appreciated because he repaired anything in no-time. It is in US perception that people who work with their hands and less with their brains are considered of less value. In the Netherlands we respect each other because of who we are, a good (wo)man and nice co-worker. And we know someone can be a jerk, no matter what education they had.
You still have the opportunity to switch schools afterwards. As I was an 'early' student the primary school advised my parents to redo 8th grade and than I would be able to go to the HAVO. Against their advise I went to the MAVO. After that I entered the MBO. Without my internship I went to the HBO after 3 years. Maybe that path is longer but it still brought me a bachelor's and gave me the same opportunities as someone that followed a more direct path. The biggest difference that we have not the 'sports' foundation that is so present in the US. That makes me wonder if some students deserve their degree based on their sports abilities or their study qualities. Another thing is that we need people that learned a trade. I saw it in my first job that guys went to a more 'lower' practical education were better with hands-on work. We might know how to do it but they can do it. Also as far as I remember after the first year in MAVO you could still make a switch to HAVO. At my MAVO in the third grade some people that finished the LEAO were added, they were older than us. So according to me everyone has the same opportunities but the track length can differ.
Thank you for sharing your experience, John! I'm aware of the opportunity of being able to switch schools later, I guess for me, the problem lies with already being placed in a certain track so early. And each of these individual tracks lead to completely different job opportunities down the line. So in a sense, you're already determining a kids future really early. And once again, I'm aware that you can move up later, which sounds ideal, but I would imagine in practice that it's hard for the average person to be motivated enough to move outside of their track. But maybe I'm wrong.
@@exploringtheforeign I studied at an HBO academy on a young age, following a direct path via VWO. I had a fellow classmate who was somewhat older. After primary school he first went to the LTS, then did MTS, HTS and then finally went to this HBO Academy. He was more mature, experienced, and had less problems with working/studying harder than me, because he was used to having to put in the effort and to have discipline, where I wasn't used to. He was very motivated. I think that he had a slower/longer but steadier learning path than me, but developed in a more allround manner. So, to me it's proof that if the potential and motivation is there, the system is flexible enough to find your path. Bytheway, the Brugklas isn't mentioned. It's the first year after primary school, which is a general schoolyear after which students finally decide which secondary education they want to do and can switch directions.
@@exploringtheforeign I also didn't experience it as a problem. More or less during the MAVO and MBO I was studying at the latest moment. Often the morning before the test. So it came pretty easy to me. With my hands-on Chemistry exam, after the formalities about what was expected, I was outside within 10 minutes. Maybe I could have gone to the HAVO anyway despite the advise of the CITO. My brother went to the HAVO and after the primary year was placed in the Atheneum track. But he dropped out in 5th grade (more-or-less his decan told my parents he had to leave school as he was troublesome). He started the MTS in the same year as I did while he was a year older. He too went to the HTS later. I had to drop out of the HTS in the second grade because I was unable to get passing grades for mathematics. Still had to do my practical year for the MTS and serve in the AirForce for my number. I started at the same company where my brother started a year earlier, and I guess comparing his paycheck with mine was a big stimulator. So I went to the evening-HBO. Did 3 years in Amsterdam for an associate degree and after that 2 years to Arnhem for another associate degree. With an additional year in Arnhem I could combine the two associate degrees to obtain my BS. Amsterdam was 3 evenings and Arnhem was 1 day (2pm-10pm). Although Inwas struggling with math in the day track of the HTS I did it with 2 fingers up my nose in the evening track. A lot has to do with the used materials and the explanation given. But maybe it also had to do that at the day HTS I had to put effort in that during my mavo-mts track wasn't used to give. Both my brother and me like the hands-on work, we rather put (despite our degree) the overall on ourselves and be in touch with the equipment. At my last job in the Netherlands I was Technical Consultant at a BIG telecom company, I was expected to assist sales, project managers and our engineers and technically design installations. I spent a lot of time with the engineers on site as I liked to fiddle around with the equipment in stead of just writing it down. The CITO is a big thing, and is indeed a form of classification of the intelligence level of a kid. We had two kids at the elementary school that we all knew weren't bright students, for them I guess it was a good thing they were placed at an ambachtsschool where they get a more practical form of education in stead of let them struggle at a more difficult level.
I agree that it’s possible to climb up if you want to, but I don’t think it’s as easy for everyone. Depending on your personal situation; like for instance, when you come from a family that has a lot of issues and you don’t have adults to support you at such a young age, it will be a lot harder to get where you would like to be and the chance is much bigger you won’t get there.
@@Lars_erik but the question is whether that's a flaw in this system. Such a person would have trouble in any system I think. I guess it"s the main reason why it's so hard to get out of a low education environment. If you"re not motivated, able or allowed to do homework you can't expect to reach a higher level anywhere.
Sam, you found a pretty hard topic to discuss, it was informative. I think the Dutch system is a lot like the German system and kids get directed very early. This is good and bad. The one thing that isn't mentioned is that as a young person there in the Netherlands you grow up knowing that if try and if you have some talent you can shoot for the moon and make it at very little cost. In the USA higher education is a for profit industry and being able to get into university depends a lot on having the MONEY and the talent and so, as a result, a lot of human potential is lost.
I never forget an article I read about MBO. That other countries see it as a great way to school all kind of practical workers but that it has a low reputation in the Netherlands itself. I am glad that MBO students are now allowed to go to student bars, also get an introduction week and get free public transport, just like HBO and university. My path was that I scored 549 (max score is 550) on the cito test in 8th grade, that was my first cito test ever because my school didn't want to put children through a lot of test, it's just one moment and the teacher sees the kid the whole year, so the teachers' advice was way more important. Went to gymnasium (vwo + Greek/Latin) and crashed from all the high expectations at the 5th year. Now I'm 27 and finishing adult school vwo this year so I can still go to university, I really want to go into research, medical biology. So if someone doesn't follow the perfect path, there are always options. In my class there are students with a ton of different stories, students with mental health problems that don't do well in a big school, students that were too lazy in normal high school that need a bit more personal attention so they focus more on school instead of everything around it, students who still need to learn Dutch more but have more potential and need a bit more explanation and translation, students who already have 2 kids and a home but always wanted to be ... (name it, doctor, teacher) and still can go for that. Chronic illnesses, parents going through divorce in their last year, you name it, there are so many reasons why one can not finish high school. So many. And this is also a government subsidized school so we pay around 120 euros a year per subject. So I have 4 this year, German, German havo (because I haven't had German in 11 years and now I have twice as much classes), drawing and chemistry and paid 500 euros for this year (including printing and drawing materials on that 480). That covers all classes and all exams. I always say good things take time.
Depends. MBO Verpleegkunde? Respectable. MBO Elektrotechniek? Very respectable. MBO Allround welder? Pleasepleaseplease come work for us. MBO 'Leisure studies'? Trash, whoever puts such a thing on their resume might as well write 'I am a failure, don't waste time on me' there, as the effect on prospective employers will be the same. Same applies to other 'hip and fun' studies. The financial measures were justified as MBOs are everywhere, so less travel expenses to get there. Also university costs more than twice as much a year, so far less debt if you do MBO instead.
Sam, this was such an interesting video. As an educator in the US and your mom, I thought this was so insightful and such a good topic to explore. I do like parts of their system and I also agree with you that there should be more time given to kids to know who they are before deciding who they will be careerwise. Thank you again for such a very interesting video.
Learning level is not decided by one single test but by eight years in primary school. Teachers have big influence when the test results are not typical for a pupil. Getting an education level that suits a teen isn't bad. They can be the best at their level, instead of the dummy that doesn't get math or physics. The more practical path can lead to the same position, maybe with a longer study, or even a few years of work in between. It is not a verdict. My cousin became an electrician, worked, studied, worked and finally graduated at university. Had he been send to higher education (theory, languages, history etc.) when he was young, he surely had become a disappointed drop-out. Now he knew 'I can do more.', which motivated him to continue on his path. And an electronic specialist doesn't need to know the architectural styles of old Greece, nor speak Latin...
@@cherylh.1537 That's more important than grades! Being satisfied and proud on what your kids do in life. And thinking, I did a good job raising them to what they are.
Hello Sam, I just learned about your channel from the Easy Dutch video, and have already watched several videos of yours and loved them. I'm commenting on this one even though it covers a more serious topic because it's the most recent one, but i just wanted to say that I thoroughly enjoyed seeing how you interact with people, being kind and respectful and seeing how that reflects back positively on their reaction with you. Specially now on the social media days, it's very easy to portray some culture as being closed and serious because they didn't want to interact with some vlogger shoving a camera at their faces, and you are doing a great job at proving that kindness and respect to the people and their culture can go a long way to get to know how nice they are. I'm starting to learn Dutch and your videos got me more excited about going through it. Keep it up, great stuff, you've got a new fan.
Good subject. Making those decisions at such a young age is hard. Good to see you covering diverse subjects. The fun subjects like carnaval and the serious subjects like the education system. You don’t screw around. You are a pro. Keep the great videos coming Sam. ❤❤❤
Splittting the school system in different levels makes sure that if you are on the right level, you won't fall behind because it's too hard for you or become bored or complacent because it's too easy. I think that it's a good idea but the execution could be better, for example people should be able to switch to a higher or lower level relatively quickly if it's obvious that it's too easy or hard for them, instead you got to wait an entire school year! They force us to chose a specific profile way too soon though. At that age almost no one knows what they want, having your career path be 'permanently' locked in at that age is very stressful and does more bad than good if you ask me. This caused me to have very limited education choices post middelbare school and forced me into an education course that i did not like and i dropped out within 2 years. Took me a few years of just working and earning some money at a 0 qualification job and clearing my mind before i really figured out what direction i wanted to go in. This is more than half a decade after you're forced to pick your profile. So much time wasted on preparing and learning for things you'll never end up doing, they really need to get rid of the rigidity in the Dutch educational system and make it as easy as possible for someone to switch levels or profile if it's clear that it's not working for them.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience! I agree with what you're saying. Unfortunate that the system caused some struggles for you, but I hope everything worked out in the end!
Wait a whole year? Not for me. I was placed at the MAVO, but excelled there and was going to the HAVO within three months. Which was at a different school. No problem whatsoever.
Teachers ignored my personal circumstances & recommened a school for children with special needs/ learning difficulties. When I walked away from my messy home situation as a teenager& left the Netherlands, I flourished. Now I have two Master of Science degrees (one from a top 10 world ranking University). My professors pursuaded me to go on to complete a PhD. I would never have got this far in the Netherlands.
Im only 0:30 in to the video but I already want to say that you video making skills have improved immensely! Edit: Wow this was such a great video! You have made crazy improvements on your video making skills! I say it again. From the angles, transitions, green screens, and subtitles to the interviews, the questions and the guests. Let alone the editing; it was all amazing! Im sure you put a lot of time in to this video. Keep up the great work and I am sure that you will reach at least 100K subs in no time! I myself am from The Netherlands and when I was 11 I also dit the 'CITO toets'. My advise was HAVO. But I also thought of the Dutch educational system as flawed. It just doesn't work. And when you compare it to other countries - especially the Scandinavian ones - then the educational system here (in The Netherlands) just doesn't make any sense. And I have been saying that since at least when I dropped out of school at age 14. But one more thing... And I absolutely don't say this to hate, but there are some improvements to make to the subtitles... For example: The subtitles at 2:48 and 2:53 say 'vbo' instead of 'vwo'. On 12:29 the guy says "I'm almost 23" but the subtitles say "I'm now 23" and the last thing I saw was that between 13:29 and 13:32 the subtitles said "een van de laatste dingen" twice in the suptitles while it was only said once. But again man, great video! Keep up the good work!
Aw man, this really means a lot!! Thank you! I definitely put quite a bit of effort into this video and it's really nice to see people see the improvement in quality. Thank you for corrections as well; I called out the VBO mistake in my pinned comment. I knew what they said when speaking with them, just messed up when typing it out😩 Also, thank you for sharing your experience in the system. What stands out the most to you in terms of things in the system that are flawed?
@@exploringtheforeign The thing that stands out the most and I think is the most flawed are the levels of education. The VMBO, HAVO and VWO. If you really think about it, it doesn't really make any sense. Lets say you are 10/11 years old and you do the CITO toets and it turns out that you are (really) bad at some subjects. They will send you to the VMBO where they will teach you those subjects at a lower level, which makes zero sense! If someone is bad at math lets say, the LAST thing you should do is educate such person with a lower level of math. The only thing this will accomplish is that this person will never get the chance to get good at math. And this is exactly what they do in the Netherlands. The right thing to do I would say is to give them more education on the topic so they learn to understand it better, rather then to keep them on a beginner level. I really believe that there is way more potential in people then the Dutch educational system gets out of them. I think that if the VMBO, HAVO and VWO levels were dropped and everyone - no matter their CITO score - should go to the same type of school with the same educational program and get the same learning material, the whole society would be better off because people could get better opportunities more easily. And not only the opportunities are important but ofcoruse also the general learning that you do in the process. I just don't think it is fair to give some people more information than the others, based on the CITO score they had when they were just 10/11 years old. It is a really magnificent point in life where in most cases the direction of the persons whole career is made, but in most cases the person in question doesn't even know what they want to be when they grow up. So i really think it could be better. Way better. And it has been proven it could be better
My nephews were given vmbo because their school basically were adamant they weren't intelligent enough to do havo, but their parents didn't agree and basically went to war with school to get them to level they felt their sons belong. Their parents also told me that judging from what they often experienced in their lessons, the vmbo advice they received was because of racism (we are black). Today the younger one is studying computer programming in higher education and is doing great. The older one is studying international business. He left a couple of days ago to Japan to spend a semester at a university there, also doing great and enjoying his studies. Imagine if their parents just accepted the vmbo advice. The boys have told me often how lucky and proud they are their parents did what the did them.
But you can with VMBO stil go to hbo if you do after vmbo havo or MBO, so I don't understand the issue. I and my little sister did Vmbo, but we have studying at HBO level.
It's a bit of a mixed bag, I think. I experienced a lot of pressure from peers and teachers to perform well enough to get in the highest education levels. Eventually it all worked out for me, but a part of me keeps me wondering if I shouldn't have just gone a different route. I'm in medical school now, but I would've loved to learn a trade.
@@exploringtheforeign I would've loved to learn woodworking. I've got a ton of friends who are masters of working with their hands, and some days I would love to just focus on what's in front of me, instead of having to worry about the 100s of things I have in the back of my mind related to quality patient care.
I'm 78 now and I had a very strange career at Dutch schools and at work ending up in Brussels. I went to school in an older somewhat comparable system. My parents were unhappy with the advice given by our school, when I was 12. The advice was a practical education (Ambachtsschool), but I did an exam and afterwards I was allowed to a middle level theoretical education (ULO), more in the direction for office jobs. The study was 4 years, but I needed 6 years and 2 schools, I had issues with foreign languages. After learning how to learn foreign languages, I finished with an elevated level of mathematics (ULO-B). Afterwards I did Electrical Engineering in a technical college (HTS) in the 4 years needed for that education. During my first job I did a post-university study in Software Engineering from the University Twente (3 years, 2x 4 hours/week in the evenings). At work, I have tested prototypes of main frame computers, did run a software department, that did grow from 10 to 150 persons. Detected, that I preferred engineering and finished as chief-architect of the Overall Air Traffic Management Architecture project of Eurocontrol in Brussels (European FAA) in 2010. By the way I had to learn myself, how to learn languages and that was hard repetitive work for me, completely different from mathematics, that came automatically with the wind. Currently I speak 5 languages; Dutch, English; German; Spanish and French. The levels are from good to very rusted after 25 years.
Good video! And I agree the career choice may be too early. One thing though: I do think it's easier to switch careers afterwards in the Netherlands compared to lets say the US because of all the work trajects/(online)courses/evening schools we have here that can be attended even when you are already working.
@@rhizopus683 Yes, just as easy it is to get fired in the USA, while in The Netherlands, once you are on-contract, it is near impossible to be fired ;)
Some things from my experience. At 12 years old I had no clue how important all these levels were. I was placed in the category HAVO/VWO but I told my mom I wanted to go to a school that only had MAVO because it seemed the most fun. My parents told me I needed to go to a school with at least HAVO level. In high school there sometimes are inbetween levels as well. I was placed in a HAVO/VWO class, so we got assignments from both levels and after two years we got a advice on which was better suited to us. After that I continued in HAVO classes in the third year. In high school, if youre grades show you're clearly capable of doing a higher level, you can switch. At 17 I had NO CLUE what I wanted to do after high school and it was one of the most stressful periods in my life. For every person I had reassuring me that it was going to be alright and I could just explore, I had four other people saying if I didn't choose right my career chances would be messed up. People definitely can get placed in the wrong level if the teachers don't like them. I had a friend who got placed in vmbo and watched her work all the way into university. The lady at 9:10 said she had to finish all 4 years of her MBO education before she could move to HBO. That already changed since then because at my education people were able to flow through to HBO after the second or third year. However you risk not having an MBO degree then, and if you're not able to graduate from HBO then you're left with no degrees. I agree with the final statement. I like the system in theory but there's definitely change needed.
I myself was placed in havo when I was 12 years old, I made the CITO test and it said havo and the teacher agreed that I belonged there. I eventually chose a path in the 3rd year, and that was in the direction of culture and society, that's what I did in the 4th year. I liked art but still had some subjects that didn't connect with the rest like for example I chose geography, which I didn't like when I was 13-14, but when I was 15-16 I began liking that subject. As a person, you change. I didn't make it through havo because, I didn't have the motivation to finish it. Only because I didn't knew what I wanted to do when it came to work. So I eventually ended up at MBO niveau 4, I chose a study that didn't at all connect with what I did at the havo, because I was more free to choose what I really wanted. So I chose to do animal care, which I somewhat enjoyed, I did found my path a bit more there. Most MBO studies have a path but, you can take a sidepath if you want to, I like the freedom in that. In animal care there are a lot of different options, some you will like and some you won't. I might do a HBO study after this in the direction of nature and biology or archaeology. I'm not sure yet, now I do have a bigger surspective in what I want. The Dutch education system does screw people up when they are young, the path when you don't finish the havo is quite nice though. You're a bit older then and you can choose better. I personally think when your around 16-18 years old, you are more likely to know what you want to become. So I definitely think we should change something that we can choose later in life what we want.
as a dutch person finishing VWO next month, i dont like the system cus it creates a lot of social hierarchy- whether joking or not vmbo students are looked down upon hella, which can never be a good thing. also theres a big expectation on vwo students to aim for the best grades and become a doctor or something, while most of us are only here just because we never happened to fail and go down to havo haha
wow sam, the production value is really improving, love your videos, watch literally every single one even tho I barely comment. Keep up the great work
When I was young, I used to struggle with black outs during tests. According to my test results when I was 12, I was supposed to do havo. My teacher suggested mavo, mainly because my dad is not Dutch which meant it ''would give me trouble with the Dutch language later on'' even though I was consistently having perfect scores on every subject, including Dutch (these test scores were seperate from the final test scores that gave me havo). My parents knew that I was capable of doing vwo with ease, so decided to fight for me. After many discussions with the teacher, I luckily got to go to vwo. I finished vwo with ease and now I am in university doing medicine and becoming a doctor. I am very lucky that my parents fought for me those days. I wouldn't know where I would have been otherwise. I have seen my teacher giving mavo advice to my class's best student, just because he used to be naughty and the teacher didn't like him. Sadly, most kids aren't as lucky as I was back then.
For peeoeple that are interested in a more complex explenation. I'll just explain it through the eyes as if you were a kid growing through school. First you start in the primary school consisting of 8 classes. You start school at age 3-5 depending on when you weree born and if the school year has alreeady started comperad to that. Class 1 & 2 are years to start fitting in the school and develloping socially and the kids start learning basic skills like writing, reading, music, dance, etc. Once you have done your first 2 years you'll normally continue to class 3 where you start learning and working more for the first time. Nowadays kids might actually start learning English in this grade, but mostly ths years you just have writing, reading, calculating, Physical education, drawing/crafts and also stuff like history, nature and tech and topography. When you reach class 5 your school schedule will change, until now it was always (most school) Mondays, tuesdays and thursdays 8:30-11:45, 13:15-15:30 wednesdays and fridays 8:30-11:45. Now your fridays will be like Mondays and wednesdays will last until 12:30. Also you'll start getting homework/(work you'll have to do indipentally in class) and you start getting new classes like english if you didnt have those yet. Next big event is in class 7 where you get your provisionary advice, depending on how well your prestations are as well as your work ethic and behaviour. Then the last year reaches youll make an important test that will show your intelligence (as far as it can) thene the teacher takes that and your behaviour and they will decide if you get to go to either Gymnasium, vwo, havo, mavo (vmbo-t), vmbo basis or vmbo kader although it smostly vwo/havo/mavo because the others are comparable to eachotheer but its a different approach. Gymnasium: Same as vwo, but you'll also get latin and/or greek and will take you 6 years, you could immediatly go to university this route vwo (Voorbereidend wetenschappelijk onderwijs/Atheneum): Basically the highest level you can get, but you dont have the latin or greek also takes 6 years which can lead you straight into university havo(Hoger algemeen voortgezet onderwijs): You'll get to go straight into a HBO course, takes 5 years. mavo(Middeelbaar algemeen voortgezet onderwijs, vmbo-t(l), voorbereidend middelbaar beroepsonderwijs-theoretische leerweg): Will get you straight into a MBO course and takes 4 years to complete vmbo basis(voorbereidend middelbaar beroepsonderwijs basis): You'll get more classes about preparing you for a work life and train you to DO and not to THINK as much, also takes 4 years, but you can only get up to MBO level 2 with a certificate of this education. vmbo kader(voorbereidend middelbaar beroepsonderwijs kader): The same as vmbo basis, but you'll be able to get to MBO 3/4 instead of 2. depending on if you chose a specialisation or not. Phew, ok. So you start you second school depending on what school you chose you can also add extra classes like Technasium where you'll be more busy with practical/tech parts this is for havo or vwo only, tto (twee talig onderwijs) which is where all except language classes are given in english, theres more ofcours but i cant name them all. The first years on mavo, havo and vwo start. You have Dutch, English, Mathematics, Physics, Biology, French and Physical education, Geography, History Arts and you may also have music, drama or other added classes. You can only continue to the second class if your gradelist has only 2 insufficients (1x a
Yessssss this is such a good video! Just to illustrate I'll share a bit of my life. In primary school I was doing quite well, so everyone assumed I should go to university, myself included. I did vwo, did a bit of HBO 'for fun' and went to university. I always felt very unhappy during my studies. Last year, so at 34 ! , after years of boring office jobs, I decided to take a leap and learn a craft (paid learning). This is an MBO job, which implies a low status. I love this job so much! However, I am an exception to what people expect, so I get to experience a lot of "interesting remarks". Dutch society is so segregated through its education system!
Interesting! Thank you for sharing your story, it helps me have more of an understanding of people's real experiences through the system. I'm glad you enjoyed the video :)
Smart move, enjoying something you have to do for decades to come is important. Also the emphasis on getting a degree has resulted in a real shortage of skilled craftsmen/women. There's more money to be made there than with several college degrees.
I haven't seen a lot of comment that when though my experience. I was put into VWO when I started secondary education (middelbare) but it was wayyy too hard for me. I suffered for two years before I went to HAVO, a "level lower" aka less theoretic and more practical. I had such a culture shock when I entered HAVO. Suddenly everything was doable and I didn't die from insane amounts of stress. It's been four years now and I'm still learning to deal with the anxiety and fear of failure those first two years gave me. The pressure to be in "the highest level" is not healthy and it is absurd that we see it as levels. The 'higher levels' are just more theoretical and less practical, and Vice versa. This country has placed a lot of value on cognitive/thinking skills is out of balance. This system is full of elitism. We literally are running out od plumbers and carpenters. We stopped appreciating craft with our hands, I do not think this healthy for a society. I am gonna become a teacher to kids of age 4 to 6 and I really hope I can help them believe that it doesn't matter how cognitively smart you are. It does not determine your worth. Thank you for reading
Pretty brave of you to take this on, man! Growing up here I never felt it was unfair, but that's likely because I never ran into many issues and my ambitions were always lower than my opportunities lol. When I was younger I might have said it's fine and maybe even good this way, but now that I'm a little older I can see it can be pretty messed up for some kids and getting into the wrong track can really set you back. It takes great determination to upgrade your school career path later on in life, which might be needlessly harsh really.
So, I am currently in my last year of secondary education, and I am in the higher general secondary education (havo) at the second highest level. There are made mistakes most politically. If you want a practical job you can do the lowest level and that's perfect for you but after they went to college we call them low educated that's from my perspective not fair these people obviously didn't had the hard theoretical exams but they did had practical exams which we don't have. Even students from higher levels often act like they are better than they are. So we really need them in society, but because we put them down, everyone wants to do the highest level possible. That makes we now have a lot of people missing in the practical jobs such as construction workers. Also, you make the test when you are 12 years old, based on intelligence and motivation. Your teacher gives you level advice. Your intelligence won't change that quickly, but your motivation will be while you get older. Switching to a higher level during secondary education is hard. You can only do that in the first year or after graduating. So I think the system works, but we need to make it more fairer.
My experience with the Dutch education system is mixed. I was a very bright little mind in primary school, and felt restricted in my education because I had to follow the lead of the class. In that perspective, splitting the students in 3 levels makes a lot of sense to me. However, the test results play too much of a role to determine which education is best suited for students. That bothers me most about our education system...
Yes it is an unfair system, many studies have shown this, I actually researched this problem for my havo 5 eindproject. It was really eye opening, I spoke with professors who specifically tackle this at the Radboud University, and attended their lecture on kansenongelijkheid in het onderwijs. We are currently in a transition phase where new methods and systems are implemented to reduce the inequality. It will take time. Idk if you will see it, but I mailed you my research so you can look at my findings
It is unfair in that it might make someone take a longer path to a "higher" education, but the system is still set up in such a way that someone with the right motivation can still end up in the right spot. As evidenced by the multiple classmates I had at the University doing their masters who started with MBO. One even did her PhD. It is not easy to do this as the environment such as family and fellow kids most likely won't encourage you to follow a path like that, but I see that more as a fault in the social upbringing and marketing of the system than the system itself. I'd love to see your research though, so if you have it somewhere online please let me know how to find it :-)
It's not the educational system itself that creates 'kansenongelijkheid'. It's almost entirely due to the resources students have outside of their school. No laptop, longer traveling times, living circumstances, parents barely speaking Dutch... Some steps can be made to 'even the odds', so to speak, but it's impossible difficult to solve 'causes outside of education' by 'changing the education system'. Instead, society itself needs to be made 'more fair', since the underlying problem is the unfairness in society as a whole.
I was a student who always wanted to do better but I was also one of the quiet and insecure ones, especially at age 10 or 11. My grades in primary school were really good, yet my teacher gave me a vmbo advice which is basically the lowest you can get. My parents and I disagreed and the reasoning for the advice basically came from my quietness in class. So when the cito test came and I scored a 547 (550 is the highest), my teacher suddenly agreed that I should go to havo or vwo. I ended up going to a havo/vwo 1st year of high school and from there I went to a vwo high school and now I'm studying computijg science at university. It has not been easy, but I have managed to get here and I will give my all to finish it. My point is that sometimes teachers will assess your abilities based on who you are or what you are like or what they think about you, instead of your learning ability or your grades. I'm lucky the cito test gave a good reason for them to change my advice because at a mavo school I wouldn't have fit in at all, the focus of the lessons there is not for me. For me it was clear from a young age that I wanted to do something in IT, but a few times I have doubted my choices and wondered if maybe something biology related would've been better for me, but changing course is too difficult both because of the system and because of people's expectations. Speaking about changing course. Changing levels is usually not as difficult as some people make it seem. Changing from mavo to havo takes 1 extra year compared to a normal havo timeline. Changing from havo to vwo also takes 1 extra year compared to a normal vwo timeline. Going down a level is always possible an doesn't take any more time. After high school it's a bit different. I think you first have to finish an mbo study to go to a hbo one. And you first have to finish the 1st year of a hbo study to go to university. Going from uni to hbo or hbo to mvo is always easy I think.
Oh wow, I appreciate you sharing your story, Sam! It's good for me to learn from real experiences of people to see how the system worked for them. Sounds like you're having a good experience and that there was flexibility for you.
@EXPLORING THE FOREIGN hii! Since you asked for it in the video I figured why not haha I do think it worked out for me, but I realise it could've easily gone a different route. Anyways, thank you for making these interesting videos and all the best to you!
@@samenjaimy Hi Sam so I’m a 14 years old from aboard who is now learning the ISK ( the language school for foreigners ) I have been learning now for 1 year and I had some exams for knowing my level. The teacher told me that HAVO is good for me which I’m going( HAVO 2) to this year after the summer holiday. I have been thinking about what to pursuit as a career and I think I wanna do IT although I have no much clue about it but it’s something I want. So since your doing IT or (done). Please give some advice on the best and fastest way and thank you so much for your time .
This is a very good video explaining our education system. I personally always felt like i had to make a choice too early. This lead up to me picking paths i eventually didn't end up persuing. Eventually I started doing more 'fun' things rather than school. Once I reached the age of 19 I started learning myself to program in Java and discovered this was what i wanted to do, so i did. At age of 21 i did the so called "21+ test" to be able to apply for a HBO education. Now i graduated and work as a software developer, the same field as my education. I always was familiar with computers and technology, but never interested me in my early teens as something interesting enough to pursue. My interests and personality aren't even close to what they were back when i was a kid.
You mentioned exactly the strength of the Dutch system. In the USA, you'd be screwed. But with the Dutch system, you still had the option to enter University and not be 100k in debt ;)
honestly, i go to school from 8:45 until 15:30. I do Havo, and we get a lot of tests and assignments for grades. at some point, i forget my own mental health. not passing the year is dropping a group, adding two years to my study. I lose motivation and interest, and merely study to pass and no more. No free time. no motivation. parents don’t understand. bad grades, bad performance. Teachers ruining our day or maybe even week and family with one click on Magister :’)
Wow, I really enjoyed reading the comments. You Dutch people are soo intelligent 🧠. You all make valid arguments based on deep reasoning 👍. But here in Nigeria, the stress factor is a lil present in our education system too and sometimes we are a bit rushed because of the tight education schedule (if you attend a private school that is). And you are expected to know a little too much at a young age. Nonetheless, it makes us quite ahead of our counterparts when we study abroad. So in actual fact, there is gain in the pain.
Being Dutch and started with MAVO/HAVO advice. Finished MAVO and then switched to a MBO Hotel school to become a waiter (something I wanted back then). After Militairy Service I was struggling to get back into normal life for a while. Finally I got hired by IKEA where I got into logistics and I had the opportunity to learn how to drive on a forklift. I also got back to school MBO Logistics and made it up to lvl 2 with lvl 3 half done. Due to my own fault I got fired there and it was again some more years struggling getting a job. About 4 years ago I got the opportunity to get my truck (big-rig) driving license and since then I'm a truck-driver so I look out the window and earn my money with it. Something the basic school teacher always said that you can't earn money with that and look at me now :P
The CITO test is terrible. I scored very very low, ("He might not even make the lowest school system,") but later went to HAVO anyway. Why did I score so low? Because my interests weren't addressed, so it has little to do with level, and CITO is blind to that. It's a commercial institute, but somehow made holy. This is sick.
How did it work with you getting a different advice than what the CITO test showed? I'm curious how that worked out with you getting into HAVO. And what do you think is a better solution for people's interests not being addressed on the test?
@@exploringtheforeign I could take an hour explaining that, as I'm an educational innovator. But in short, I got an in between year (schakelklas) after which brugklas was kind of doubling a year, hence I got into HAVO. So that helped. Solution wise, and we have to be careful with that, I think that for many children (not all! differences in what works best can be big) some explorative subjects, where they choose what to focus on or play with should be more free. I personally would loved to have subjects like science history (while I suck a physics), arts, writing. Nowadays I think many need more theatre, read people skills classes or self development, especially since so many teens are depressed, or drop out. We see education too much as preparing for work, but we should prepare for life. And for the world we live in. For instance how is it possible that we train kids to seek out well paying jobs in corporations that destroy nature? How come kids that love animals and nature at 12, forgot about that at the end of high school? Lots of questions that are more out of the box need to be asked. Comparing two outdated systems on their own merits is not enough. :)
Hi Sam...I recently relocated to the Netherlands (been 8 days now) from South-Africa. A few months ago after making that big decision I stumbled upon your channel and I'm pretty sure I've not missed any of the videos you've released since. I must say the various tips you shared have helped me a great deal in settling in. I live in Almere and hope to bump into you some day. Keep up the good work and sorry due to luggage limit I was unable to bring more sun from South-Africa albeit Dutch people might not feel the need for it :)
Wow, thank you! I really appreciate the support on the videos and happy to hear that they've helped. Nice to have you here from South-Africa! Feel free to hit me up on Instagram or something and we can try linking up some day.
Last year I passed my HAVO exams and choose to do VWO (two extra years on secondary school). At primary school my teacher gave me HAVO advise, but I always fluctuated between HAVO and MAVO. Al my friends went to HBO, but many of them dropped out, because it was to easy or not what they’d expected🥱. I’m glad I’m still doing VWO, because I want to go to university. Plus, I get payed from DUO because I’m older than 18 at secondary school💶. Doing VWO also gives me more time to chose my bachelor, but I do regret not choosing business economics when I was 15. Going from HAVO to VWO, I also had to choose French again, which I hadn’t followed for 3 years🇫🇷.
As a non dutch(flemish person) I have my own toughts of this systems. The problem isn't the different levels it is the standardized test (CITO) to determine your placement and the advice your primary school gifs. The cito can be influenced by privat tuiters, practicing... And the advice could be flowed because it is only a small moment you track and if the teacher doesn't have a high regard of you
My biggest problem was the system wanted you to be overall good in all the classes you follow. While I was pretty bad in languages so had to go from havo to mavo. While on mavo I was bored out of my mind on the more math/technical classes. And it's not like I needed any german or french for the HBO education I did in the end after having todo some pretty boring 4 years of MBO.
One important thing to add, maybe not clear to non-Dutchies: the CITO toets at age 11 is not something you study for. You practice in the way questions work etc, but it is meant to establish your skills in reasoning, language, math... It is meant to assess your level not in terms of knowledge but in terms of capabilities. Any levels of stress may come more from parents than from the kids themselves...
Wow… not gonna lie… I think I need to rewatch this.. maybe even save this.. because the school system is a bit confusing and I have so much to learn. Thanks for this man!
Ik ben het volledig met je eens. De achterliggende gedachte is leuk, en het in categorieën indelen van kinderen op basis van hun leervermogen heeft ook voordelen, maar er is gewoon niet genoeg mobiliteit tussen de niveaus. En ik zeg dit als iemand die van de middelbare school is geschopt en toen op 19-jarige leeftijd middels een toelatingsexamen alsnog op de universiteit is beland.
I think they're being a bit dramatic in this video about the different levels of students, because nowadays when you're in primary school the teacher chooses which level you do and not the test anymore. And you also have a choice in that. And these days it's not looked at as smart and less smart, But as good at learning and better with your hands, so I think it's pretty good that they split it that way. You can also easily switch levels
It has always been one of my gripes that you get put in a box early. I like the premise, though, place students at a level they're comfortable with. It's just not fun if you have trouble keeping up or if you're not stimulated enough. However, there needs to be a way to switch paths easier than it is now. As you touched on, your ability to learn does not only depend on your intellect. Your environment has a _lot_ to do with it. I do have faith in our system, though. As when I went to the US after VWO, my levels were set equivalent to high school and two years of college. When our kid was born, I moved back to the The Netherlands just for the school system. Note that we went to live in a village on the outskirts of a town, so that the environment wouldn't work against my kid.
@@exploringtheforeign It worked out. She had a choice of University and HBO, and she choose the latter. She wanted to have a stake in the way we interact with technology, and she found a place where she does exactly that and where she's happy. I couldn't be happier about it. She never got in trouble as in the small village we lived, nothing really happened. The kids only helped each other out.
Dutch white guy here. The Cito test actually helped me. I was a class wallflower, and bullied at school. School was not a good lesrning environment for me. Lot of stress and fear and relating to other students. Teacher wanted me to go to Mavo/ Havo. On the test I could show that I comprehended more than teacher noticed. I scored VWO level. So my parents wanted me to go to Havo/ Vwo. Im very thankfull they did that, cause I could handle that level. After I did university now Im a psychologist/ therapist. Cito is changing and other tests are being used more. To me the 360 view on the child (parents/ teacher/ test results/ kids whishes and dreams) is the most important. Dont take only 1 component and base everything of off that. Choose a profile I think happens to early. But then again as teens our tenparement personality traits (the tendencies that we are borne with) let us gravitate more to a more technical, economic, cultural or healthcare profile. For me it meant not having to do economics anymore, which I found boring. On the other hand I could have benefitted from it, to have more knowledge of it. But at that time I really wasnt interested in learning it. Maybe make the choice in the last 1 or 2 years. Or let Mavo students choose when going to MBO, Havo on their last year and VWO on their last 2 years maybe? If profile doesnt match the job outcome you later decided, you wanted to pursue. Then switching is possible. Sometimes you have to then take a course or a test to get up to pre admittemce standard. All in all pur Dutch regulatory culture shines through. And I would love to see more loose education. But thats gonna require such a culture shift, tyat I dont think will happen in my lifetime.
In the beginning, yes it is quite unfair. But I know that a friend of mine started at the lowest level of mbo and is now a master in educational science and graduated at the top of her class. She's doing amazing now, because she just kept going and didn't give up.
its all right, but she is probably atleast 3 years older than the regular first year university students. That is what makes the difference, because someone like your friend has to study so much longer to accomplish the same thing.
@@kerimm.3712 Not really, because the lower education has a lot less years of study than the higher ones and the lower ones also finish highschool two years earlier.
Als Nederlander weet niet echt wat ik ervan moet vinden, maar je bracht wel een belangrijk punt aan het licht in het begin van de video: in de tienerjaren veranderen mensen ontzettend veel, en door ze in een hokje te duwen beperk je ontwikkeling van deze mensen... So, good point you raised there.
I'm currently studying for my HBO bachelor's degree of Social Work, and funnily enough my second semester revolved about inequality in our school system. There are clear signs that ones school achievements don't tie in to our actual intelligence. A lot of dutch children are overestimated. These kids have their own rooms at home meaning studying is easier for them. Also parents can usually afford homework guidance to improve their grades. A lot of dutch secondary school pupils were punching above their weight. On the other end, a lot of the foreign families had a lot of kids underperforming. Usually these kids tend to speak their parent's primary language, usually being Moroccan or Arabic, meaning their understanding of Dutch isnt as strong as native Dutch children's are. Also, a lot of these foreign families don't have the same type of money available to them to improve their kids' learning ability. Having to share a room, especially during Covid, meant a lot of the poorer families were quite impeded in their (school)work, simply because it was so much more difficult to concentrate with all the sound around you, or having to share a bad internet connection. This creates a motion unintended systematic discrimination, where the Dutch people stay richer because they are more well-educated, securing them well-paying jobs, whereas for Foreign people this meant a spiral of poverty. To get to the entire basis of it I can only recommend joining the study for yourself, but if you'd wanna learn more i highly suggest the program "klassen". It's on NPO start and it's free to watch! it might be region locked though, so if youre outside the NL I recommend a VPN. Its not only a good watch but also creates insights into the Dutch educational system (and the effects of it on children and adolescents).
As a current MBO student and past VMBO student I can say that there is way little recognition for us. VMBO/MBO has so many important jobs that we need to survive like baker, builder, gardener, farmer, kindergarden teachers and so many more jobs that require practical things instead of office jobs. Luckily the past few years there has been more recognition because of a school competition for VMBO/MBO schools/studies. Its called Skills Talents (VMBO) and Skills Heroes (MBO). Even the minister of education from the netherlands has worked with them and over the years they've gotten more money to be more recognizable. I have participated myself twice and it was so cool to see so many students enjoying they study that they choose and how much its needed in the real world.
lol, the dutch ruined my school carreer tbh.... My parents r divorced, one lives in Belgium the other in the Netherlands. I grew up in Belgium, but at a certain moment i moved to my mom in the NL. I was 12 and was put in "group 8" (last elementary year) somewhere in March. I was obviously the smartest of the class (I was already assessed having an IQ of 135 when i was 10yrs old), but since this was a little countryside town where nepotism rules, they just couldn't have it that i already knew multiple languages, aced every regular test and thus i was excluded from the test which is used for assessing your higher education levels. This ended with me going to MAVO like most of the guys from that class, which really sucked cuz i felt like what they got teached there was simpleton stuff that i already knew from my primary school education in Belgium. I got fed up being in the Netherlands, so moved back to Belgium, where i now was not assessed for secondary school, adn they based my education level on the study i was doing in the NL. This made me ending up in the "midpack" of education, Technical Schooling, and i got nothing but bad grades during the year (they deduct points if you don't behave well, i lost tons of points that way) and i made up my year during the exam-periods (without studying anything, it was free vacation every day for me) where i got like 90-95% overal grades for all courses. I quit school ASAP when i could, went to do partially schooling combined with work at age of 16, so at 18 I could leave the house and live by myself, without any degree... when i was 25 I found out i could still get a degree, so i went to that school for adults, and finally they did an actual assessment of my capabilities. I originally wanted to complete the 3 lost years from the technical education, but the told me i'd better do the sciences course (the highest that this "school" offered, ready for getting into uni). I completed 4 years of normal study in some 2 years, i finally was challenged and found the study material mostly very interesting. At age of 27 i could've entered University finally, but it would've cost me too much at that moment; my financial situation didn't allow for it so i never got the university degree. But at least i've got a very nice secondary degree that proves i'm no dumdum that can't complete school. If the Dutch people in that countryside school just allowed me to take my test, i'd been probably graded with a nice result, although i only attended the dutch schooling system for like 4 months or so. I would've never gone to that MAVO school, but would immediately be going to VWO, just like the other "smart" guy in that class. Just purely because of jealousy and nepotism my whole school-carreer got tanked. I hated school, really really deeply. Until i finally got into that "finish your education"-system that finally took me and my capabilities for what they are instead of putting me in "the average"-group where i never belonged. I could also talk about elementary stuff that totally went wrong, but that would make this text even longer. Let's just say that my future was sabotaged from my early years. And that part is thanks to my parents...
As someone who got screwed over in his early teens by the Dutch education system, I fully agree with your opinion. The idea sounds good, but there are a lot of cracks that students can fall into. And when that happens there is too much bureaucracy to overcome to set it right again. Because of all of this I was done with havo at 20 instead of 17, because I had to come from VMBO first. They need to set the first 3 years of high school as a continuation of elementary, all shared classes and in your 4th year you are sorted into the course of your level and interest. Also, my highschool really looked down on their VMBO students, the HAVO and VWO students got the best trips and when we graduated the HAVO and VWO graduees got a bouguet of roses and a live band, and the VMBO class got no roses and no bouquet.
I was really happy at the end of primary school I could go to VWO. School was too boring for me. Most difficult part was that I didn't learn to learn. Only from VWO 4 did I found out that you really have to learn (had to redo a year). For me the overall experience was good. In the end I did decide to do hbo, because university was too theoretically for my liking. Only thing is that I now have more interest in the technical subjects than I had back then. Luckily I can do interesting technical things in my job now, but I'm never going to be an engineer (don't want to do another full bachelor or master degree). I do have to say: the academically lower levels should not be regarded as something that is lower in life. It's not, not everything in life is about your academic level.
As a Dutchie, I’d say the system failed me. I was being bullied in primary school and since then, it caused me to not want to even attend or make an effort for it. I got labeled with ADD and they thought I could just skip a grade to prevent me from being in the same group again in middle school but since it was a small city/village, they all followed in the next year, as well as kids in the new school seeing I was an easy target. I attended VMBO but would hang out and feel a lot more at home at the school next door which was VWO. Because of the continued bullying, I again refused to be interested or perform and was at the bottom of the possible difficulty level (Basis). They medicated me to become zombie-like despite the fact I mentioned countless times I was being bullied and didn’t see the point of going to school with ‘those kids’. After middle school, I had to start nearly at the bottom of MBO which was Level 2, because this was in a different city I finally had a fresh start. I followed a tailoring and fashion course which invited all sorts of people that just wanted to be and express themselves, this helped me open up and become more confident in myself. After completing this course, I wanted to follow my true passion. My entire youth I had been gaming as an escape, the MBO offered a Level 4 course in game art which I immediately applied for, I passed that as well with flying colours (except for math as I still suck at that). Now I’m about to graduate with a bachelor in game design and have a grade average of 8 (with projects nearly always being a 10). What sucks about the system is the teachers aren’t being paid enough to deal with the shenanigans of the kids they have to teach, bullying is out of their grasp and can’t always be involved. I found my place finally after hitting 26 years of age but this can’t be said for everyone. The current system offers the right amount of challenge for those that need it, but it fails to adjust when it does not fit the student.
Dutch education system is fair , as every one can achieve any degree and education it wants , even switch carreer paths of education . If one is not yet completely ready to master HAVO. MAVO is a slighty lower path but achieves the same goal as degrees get you a shorter route in the next phase of your education . Same with the old LTS MTS schools . Mavo students could do the administrative schools then switch to Middle techinical school but had to do the full 4 years , LTS lower technical school students could do the short cut education of MTS as they already where educated in the basics of their schozen fields . and finish it in 18 months in stead of the full 4 years + internship . Doesnt matter what road you walk or what path you will end up with the degree you want to gain . slower or faster Every one has the same chances . and well rounded educations .
@@exploringtheforeign Best argument for dutch /german styles of education , Why are they so wealthy , and leaders in technology . medical equipment and research . Good jobs And now ask you why so many americans with college education are working minumum wage at fast food chains , and why the debt of america is so high they removed the commas and periods in the national debt clock as the amount doesnt fit . American education is not something i would send a child to school to .
As a Dutch person I really agree that it's unfair. I was advised that I could partake in HAVO classes, however, since I had skipped a class in primary school due to being "smart" (their words, not mine), I got instead put in VMBO-D (the highest tier in VMBO, since there are multiple... also very confusing). Unfortunately due to me being a year younger than everyone, even in primary school, I was the target of a lot of bullying. Overall I've experienced a good 15 years of full on physical and verbal bullying. This severely impacted my learning ability, and motivation for anything homework related. Add to that that later in life I learnt I have ADHD and slight autism, and unfortunately the general education system just would've likely never worked for me. Which has impacted my ability to get the jobs I would've wanted for sure, as I grew from VMBO into MBO (College level, basically Bachelors from what I understand). I think the system is too rigid. It only works for certain people and doesn't factor in anything external, such as learning disabilities, bullying, personal life situations (i moved about 10 times in my childhood so I didn't exactly have a stable school life in that sense either) It's unfortunate but idk what system would work better, unfortunately there aren't enough teachers to give every kid a personalized way of teaching I feel.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Sorry to hear about the bullying that occurred, I hope that it's something that you've been able to heal from. I wish I was able to cover all of these nuances in the video; might have to do a part 2.
I loved how your dug into all aspects of this ... are you familiar with the lotto system for if you want to go to medical school? It can be quite sad if you lose out on the third draw and can't be a doctor .. doesn't seem fair. But, I would be the type who would want free education for everyone who wanted to learn .. no matter what their age. 🌹
@@exploringtheforeign To be honest with you Sam, I totally don't understand the Dutch school system simply because I didn't grow up in it so I don't really know how fair it is. The only real choices I had in 7th grade according to my school counselor (I'm 74 now) was between becoming a nurse, a teacher or a farmer's wife. Pfff
@@LindaCasey Dear Linda, For your generation it was the same in the Netherlands 🙏🏼 My mom walked an hour to her school, through the woods. She was the only child of 7 children that had the opportunity to study at the nuns Catholic boardingschool / convent to be a teacher. Some of her sisters did become farmer’s wives. Later my mom had to quit her job bc she was pregnant, it was not until years later that it became ‘normal’ to work as a mom instead of being a housewife. A lot has changed since then. Now there are so many choices on each available level, some kids take a year off after graduating high school to research their options! 😅🫶🏼
@@exploringtheforeign Most HBO’s and Universities with far more applications than available spots have a lottery system, not just medical school. Some schools do not only have auditions but motivation& aptitude intakes as well as medical tests before admission. It’s the same in the US for military school, Dance Academies etc. Professions with shortages like nurses and elementary school teachers have a 1 time college tuition deduction and a second tuition deduction for a Master’s degree. 🙏🏼🌺
I personally went to vwo and I fully support the Dutch system. If you stick everyone into the same class, the people who do learn faster can learn faster and the people who learn slower can learn slower. Everyone can learn at roughly their own pace at no one is held back significantly. There are a lot of ways to move through up or down through the system, so you are definitely not stuck. For me personally the system has definitely benefited me, if everyone was in the same class, the pace would just be too slow for me. That is not just to blow my own trumpet, but that is the case for a lot of people I know. The profile system also does eliminate a lot of the useless stuff we have to learn.
What is determined by the class to which you are counted is hidden in education in the Netherlands. It largely determines the relationship between the teacher and the future student. Who is the education system geared toward? The choices you make early on are pre-prepared and tailored to who is likely to give the best answer.
I personally was pressured a bit to go into VWO when I was younger, with the "VWO is good, VMBO is bad" mentality very much present when I grew up. Ended up in 5 years of being told I wanted to do academic jobs, while I really did not. Switched secondary school 2 times before dropping out of the whole thing all together when I was 16, with both bad motivation and mental health problems at the root of it. I only since about the age of 17 know that I really prefer working with my hands and actually doing stuff and spent some years trying to find my way, until I joined the military at the age of 20. I'm nearly 22 now, but really have found my place in life, but not thanks to the education system. I agree completely with you Sam, young folk should get more time to actually learn what they even want in life.
As a Dutch person I would say that I agree that kids have to choose too early, for me personally, I choose my profile not based on what I liked about it at all, but just the people I would end up in a class with, so I wouldn't be in different classes from my friends. As a kid you just don't care about school no matter much your parents tell you it's a really important choice. With my CITO test I was assinged to MAVO, but after one year of that, I was moved up to HAVO, so it is possible to improve in the system, but it depends a lot on your teachers and your own willingless to put in some efford.
It also depends on the attitude. If one of my students would ask to be put in a havo class, I would pay more attention to that student and offer extra work to be up-to-date. I'm a mathematics teacher and last year I did have some students of which I thought: Wouldn't (s)he be a havo type? If they never ask, then teachers won't pay attention unless the kid scores a straight 9/10 on every subject. And really, I had two kids in 1 mavo last year of whom I thought: Maybe (s)he has havo potential.
I did the same thing as the girl you interviewed. I come from a working class family so they presumptuously gave me MAVO advice. I did 4 years of MAVO, then 3 years of MBO, then 4 years of HBO and, eventually, 2 years at a university to get my Master's degree. I was way too young to be judged like that. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and I was super stressed out about the test. On the one hand; it's good that the system allows you to keep stacking levels on top of each other (like I did). On the other hand; the simple fact that this possibility needs to exist is a clear indication that we're doing something wrong at the start. But I don't claim to have any solutions. Like the professor said: more research is needed.
I was what in the US you'd call 'a straight A student'. I did an almost faultless CITO-toets (the test that determines what level of secondary school you will attend) when I was 11, was advised to attend VWO and did so as well, and because I liked almost all subjects and had no idea what I wanted to do in life, I chose a wide variety of subjects - as varied as the school limitations allowed. I studied something I liked and at age 55 am still working in the same field. For me the system worked fine, and I used to think that there wasn't much wrong with it. Until I became a parent, and one of my children turned out to have an 'imbalanced intellence profile'. Already in primary school he excelled in language-related subjects and failed miserably in maths. His CITO-toets was far from straightforward: he would be able to take languages at VWO level, but wouldn't succeed in maths even at the lowest level. Because a choice had to be made, he was forced at age 12 to attend the lowest level of secondary school. He was bored to death there, became depressed and after a lot of struggles he finally dropped out without a diploma. The system didn't work from him, and ever since I am a strong supporter of a different type of secondary education - where all students follow the same subjects for at least 3 years, with the possibility of following each subject on the level that fits them.
4:53 there are a lot of commercial schools that will allow you to enter state exams so you can still become a doctor. Also if you do not know what your future holds for you, chose sciences. You can go to most economical, historical or humanity studies without having any of the subjects in your profile. For engineering or biology, the subject needs to be present in your profile.
This was really interesting, I've been here for nearly 12 years but I have never studied here (I'm old, lol). I have some younger colleagues who are also students, from what I understand from them, attending university here is insanely intense. One of them takes exams once per month 😢 I'm tired just imagining that...and don't forget, working is mandatory alongside study. It just seems ridiculous and not a great mental environment for learning. Would love to see more videos like this! Great stuff!
"Working is mandatory"??? Must have chosen a dual pathway then. For working is NOT mandatory at all, unless you choose the dual pathway of getting study points for your work in the right environment. Or if the costs of your living style don't compare well with your income. And if the exams are spread out well throughout the year, you don't have just a few months of true insanity at the end. But usually those go in a few clusters (not every month). Guess you've been truly partially informed. Perhaps this one colleague is not the most truthful source :)
I personally do like the fact that there are levels, however I am a student who went straight to vwo so there wasn’t much struggle. In primary (especially in the last 1.5 year) I was quite bored cuz everything was easy to me. However when I did go to vwo this was a huge jump and I did have to get used to it. I’m happy that I have some sort of a challenge instead of having to do the same thing over and over when I already got it the first time. The only thing I don’t rlly like is how early you have to choose your subjects. I recently chose mine and I have absolutely no idea what I want to do in the future, therefore I’m not very confident in my choice. Luckily I don’t find sciences and maths all that hard so I can probably do any job I’d like if I’m able to pass. But I can imagine that for some who also don’t know what they want to do but wouldn’t be able to take on ALL sciences this would be a pretty tough choice.
I'm a 19 year old dutch mbo 4 student. Near the start of the video it's said that around 11 - 12 years old you get an advice level and it would determine the rest of your school career, but that's not exactly true. If you start secondary school but you consistantly perform high you can advance to a higher level without having to finish the entire lower level first, same goes the other way, if you underperform you can either re-do a year or be dropped to a lower level (which happened to me), After my 3rd year of havo I dropped to the 4th year of mavo.
I myself am from the Netherlands and still in the school system. And I say it is nog unfair, but just weird and hard if one step is made wrong. For example the CITO test you make on primary school. But also the fact that book study and labour work is so separated that you can't do both. It is a nice system if you know what you want, but if you're unsure like me at the moment. It is hard to get around and make the better choices.
The main thing he got right was the complexity of the system, which makes certain rules seem more harsh than they actually are if you don't know the system in detail so you know what in the system compensates for it. For instance the advice is given at age 12-13, but the actual choice mostly happens at age 13-14 or 14-15, as often the first year or the first two years at middle school are the same for all students and only after that they need to decide which path (vmbo, havo or vwo) they want to follow. Hence it's possible to go with vmbo advice to a vmbo/havo/vwo school (especially with prolongued 'brugklas') and if getting good enough grades they will allow you to go to havor or vwo even though the original advice was vmbo.
I might speak on this as a bit of an exception. But I dropped out of school in HAVO 4 and went to MBO 4 retail (which you can switch to when you finish HAVO 3). I then went on to do HBO fysiotherapie and am currently doing my masters in manual therapy. The Dutch system actually leaves a lot of room to move up the ladder. But as the woman pointed out it just takes time which might be demotivating. And as the teacher pointed out many people may not realise the opportunities/options they actually have. I have noticed this when I was able to help my friends find new opportunities in their education with my experience with it. I dropped out of school for the same problem you meantioned with the US system. Where I was having to learn all this stuff I wasn't interested in. I agree with the guy about it not being a bad thing that people are grouped based on their abilities. But the CITO toets is one of the worst tests to examine someone's abilities. I feel like most people don't have a problem with being grouped, but with the test that keeps grouping people wrong. And i'm saying this as a gifted kid who got placed in VWO, so it's not out of spite. The test is just shit. All with all a great video. Where I honestly saw all arguments and points come by that I have experienced myself while going through a big part of this system. This is a really well rounded and complete video to portray the Dutch system in an understandable way. Keep up the good work!
Ok, I’ll weigh in a little too. I am Dutch (educated there) and now live in North America (I am 71). In my day we were tested grade 5 for ability. My parents sent me to the HBS which at that time was the highest level. The first 3 years were a very general education. After the third year you either went to A stream (commercial, languages (4!) art, etc) or B stream (technical, i.e. engineering etc). Most of us at that age knew which direction we wanted to go. In the sixties and seventies the Dutch education system was top notch. I can’t truly comment on how it is now - from what I gather from my siblings etc it has changed quite a bit.
I am currently in secondary school in the Netherlands and i also font really the weird system. Because all through out primary school my advice was mavo and suddenly in year eight they said i could do gymnasium (thats rven higher than vwo). Because apperently allthough out primary school i wasnt dumb i just had undiagnosed adhd, because of that i didnt get the help i needed in school amd my intelengence was not seen. But i enden up getting a gymnasium advice during lockdown because we didn't do the citi test. Fast forward year two secondary school i have to choose between havo amd vwo i choose havo because i had just moved two times and i was going thru some things. And that decided like the rest of my life. But i wanna go to university because i changed my mind (thats what teenagers do) so now i have to work my ass of so i can maybe switch to vwo next year.
I stumbled upon this video, and it was fascinating, particularly because I'm from Suriname, and we have a somewhat similar system (as a former Dutch colony), currently undergoing transformation for modernization. Before COVID, Suriname had a streaming/transition system determined by proficiency in Dutch and mathematics. Scoring less than 5 meant a high chance of repeating the grade. In grade 8 (then called the sixth grade), there was an exam significantly shaping your future career. If you passed, the school you attended was decided based on your performance. You could pass for the highest direction, Mulo, or a technical or industrial LBO. Another option was ETO, considered the lowest form, supposedly for children with disabilities. However, all of this was determined by your proficiency in Dutch and mathematics. Most parents wanted their children to pass for Mulo, as it offered the most opportunities. LBO sometimes carried the societal notion that you weren't smart enough for Mulo, placing significant psychological pressure on the child to excel in the exam. Once at Mulo, you had an "A" profile, economically oriented, and a "B" profile, scientifically oriented. In the second class of Mulo, you needed 12 points for the B profile, meaning a 6 in mathematics and a 6 in physics. It had to be above 6 but not 7 to 5. There was also a stigma attached; if you didn't choose the "B" profile, you were considered not smart enough. Additionally, with the A direction, you couldn't study medicine, for example. However, with the B direction, you could choose any job at the university after passing the Mulo exam and having the S profile in VWO. Lower profiles consisted of a language package and an economic package, with the language package offering fewer opportunities. Havo in Suriname is considered the "dump" school from VWO. Failing twice means you can't handle VWO, and you have to go to Havo. Often, children from a lower socio-economic class attend Havo. Many parents prefer their child to attend VWO, preferably with an "S" package. The MBO schools in Suriname include NATIN-MBO, the highest MBO school, and the largest. It is a natural technical MBO school and highly regarded in Suriname. SPI is a pedagogical school, and IMEAO is an economic, socio-economic MBO school. Although it is a good school, it is sometimes viewed as inferior because of the children who attend. As you can see, the system in Suriname determines a lot for you, more so than in the Netherlands. It's crucial to consider that the education level in Suriname is higher than in the Netherlands. Sometimes, HBO books are used in MBO schools. Surinamese children often have to take more subjects than Dutch children. Another issue is that only 60% speak Dutch as their mother tongue. Hence, from elementary school, where Dutch is a primary subject, many drop out of the system because it's based on children who speak Dutch well. Now the system is changing and becoming more like the Dutch system. Exams taken at age 11 are now at age 14. The books are gradually becoming more Surinamese because, in Suriname, books from the Netherlands are used for many subjects. Teachers now have to focus more on the talents of the child instead of emphasizing Dutch. Children no longer repeat grades but progress to the next one automatically. And on Mulo you now have extra profiles like arts and IT. However, the system now faces significant problems because the old system was based on dropouts from elementary school. Since every child now stays in school due to progression, there aren't enough schools in Suriname. There's a shortage of VWO schools. Teachers now have to work more for less pay, and there's also a scarcity of teaching resources due to financial difficulties, as Suriname is in a deep recession. This video has shown me that the Dutch system doesn't differ much from the Surinamese one but offers more opportunities.
American woman lived here for 24 years bc I love it here for many things. I worked years in the Jeugdzorg system. You are right the schooling is unfair and could even say racists, classist. In America we do not have to have a degree or certificate study for years to be a cook, house cleaner, waitress and so on. As we grow through school we are given classes that are above our age if we test higher in one category or another. I was a math person, wanted nothing to do with languages. I grew up when states was booming..a boomer. I was an accountant, an office manager, with no schooling. I was tested and given 3 months with a living salary to Prove I could do it. After that had the job with a raise. When computer came my work sent me to California to learn programming, again bc of testing and my drive to learn it. Here you have to do years of schooling to change course. That is also not fair. it is like they want to delay everyone from working. Keep ppl in boxes. I understand the problem with too many ppl wanting same kind of job and not available but this goes too far. Also it traps ppl into schools that do not stimulate them. Being in a school with all kinds of ppl is how the society is organised but not the schools. I find that strange.
Another interesting video Sam, thanks! What made you do this subject? I was surprised to hear how badly the cito toets experience was for many people. At my primary school they impressed upon us that it wasn't a test, you didn't have to study for it, it was just to figure out what type of learning your brain works best with. In Mavo you get lots of support and guidance, and in VWO you get a lot of freedom but also responsibility. And yes, clever kids tend to handle responsibility better. They wanted to send me to do Havo, but since I was terrible with numbers (they didn't know about dyscalculia back then), wanted to go where I would be able to keep up with math lessons. So I did Mavo. After school I had some jobs, eventually turned working experience into a partial diploma. Got a better job, etc. Just finished doing a HBO homestudy. In my experience, it's not hard to work your way up, but yes, as that lady said, it takes time. Honestly, the biggest issue I have with our educational system, is the starting times. Bloody hell, teenagers need to sleep 10h, how are they supposed to get that if they need to be in school at 8:15?!
Thanks, Judith! I was inspired by all of the stories I'd hear from friends and my gf about their experience with the system here. It just all sounded a bit.. strange to me haha. And thank you for sharing your experience!
I got a wrong advice and was miserable in middle school. When I was an adult I worked myself into university at age 26. It made me waste alot of my time and happiness. But I got to where I wanted to be by myself. 💪🏼
I was given MAVO advice, because back then I still had undiagnosed social anxiety and ptsd. My parents still pushed for me to do HAVO and I was actually one of the top students of my group, if not year. If Dutch schools aren't willing to proper look into any diagnosis for what a kid might have, there's no fair way of getting assessed for everyone. Same happened with my brother who got told to do MAVO because if dyslexia. He passed HAVO just fine.
*Seems* very practical and organized, planned. Which *seems* very Dutch. I'd be interested to see an examination of philosophical identity in the NL. For example: how un/popular or universal are concepts like pragmatism and utilitarianism. I find these sorts of collective efficiencies often come at the cost of concepts like individualism or even humanism, while somewhat paradoxically attempting to improve those things. Cool video!
I did HAVO and HBO, but deep in my heart I always wanted to work with my hands.. I’m a programmer now, but luckily I like what I do. Working with my hands became my hobby now
There are a lot of people saying they 'had to choose subjects way to early' as they 'ended up following a different path'. The thing is: you can still follow different path. Literally the only effect of choosing your profile is the following: - If you drop maths or choose easier maths, this rules out beta studies. (Obv, you could later on always follow the subject seperately, outside of high school.) - If you drop physics, chemics, and biology, this rules out specific studies related to these subjects, including medical school. Any other subjects aren't necessary for studies. You will follow subjects that you won't need in your career, and that would've happened if you'd had to choose later to.
As a Dutch teen who is currently in vwo I find it kind of strange that when you’re in vwo people kind of expect or assume that you’re going very well payed and theoretical job like work as an attorney or doctor maybe in an office or a lab but (if I take myself as an example) my biggest dream is to be an actress and 90% of my class want to work with their hands. I do find it good that they have different levels like more of a challenge for vwo and that they explain a little more on vmbo but just because I might be a little more intelligent doesn’t mean I’m good at learning from a book (which I’m not) and the other way around
Moet even zeggen dat je super goed doet!!! Veel journalisten kunnen van jouw leren. Je komt heel erg open over en je gaat op onderzoek uit. Je maakt op het einde een goede samenvatting. Ga zo door🥰
As a Dutch 17-year-old I'm actually glad we got split into the three groups when we were 11/12. I had my group of friends in primary, but aside from that primary school was kinda boring for me and there were people in my class there who I didn't really like. Part of that comes from lack of shared interests and also being intelligent (as in book smart) can be regarded as weird and could result in getting picked on. So I was happy to be put in an environment where being book smart wasn't weird or looked down upon, and where people generally had a bit more of shared interests. An environment where knowledge and intelligence are valued and eventually even respected. This place for me was the Gymnasium, one version of what you could call VWO+, Just VWO with something extra. In the case of Gymnasium that extra thing is Latin or Greek or both. Although I've had a positive experience I recognize that this is certainly not the case for everyone. Being book smart means that the education system has treated me well, so my opinion on the system may be biased. Therefore I can only speak for myself in saying that I'm glad the system is how it is for the most part. Not to say that it's perfect, I've had my moments where I loathed it, but it's pretty good.
Btw je spreekt echt goed nederlands, een tip(is moeilijk trouwens, dit doen nederlanders vaak op gevoel) verwijswoorden zoals die, dit, dat, iedereen snapt het wel maar het viel me gewoon op :)
For some reason you always upload exactly as I open RUclips lmao. Anyway, politics in this day and age is a very sensitive topic so I was a little wary going in but you put out a very fair and good video (the disclaimer really helps). You laid out the facts about the education system in the beginning and listened to other people's opinion before coming to your own conclusions. Interesting and relevant topic too! Keep it up man.
I just have perfect timing! haha And thank you for this feedback! I know it could be playing with fire discussing these kind of topics, but I tried my best to do it in a respectful way.
As a 37 y.o., being part of the introduction year MAVO changed to VMBO, I would say the Dutch system is too focused to pigeonhole kids into a track. My parents were against this mandatory testing when I was 11/12, and with a couple other kids, I never did that test. The test only gives data of that one moment, where a kid is experiencing high stress because 'their future depends on it'. Meanwhile, my parents just told the teacher to use their judgement as they been teaching me for two years. I was a 'kid' at that age, I had other interest than studying. So my parents opted for me to do VMBO instead of the advice of HAVO. My journey starts as a car mechanic and ends with a bachelor degree in communication and multimedia design. The only reason I went for my bachelor is because I had a coach while doing my MBO4 vocational training (facility management) that told me about the possibilities. That informed me I could break free of the track I was put on. I'm still thankful to this day I met that woman. There is even a part of me that wants to get a master degree, but the time required is off-putting - as mentioned by the lady in the video. I've already been in secondary/tertiary education for 9 years. At a certain point you want to just live your life and move on to the next stage with your partner. It takes so much time (and money) to get out of that box people placed you in when you were a kid - especially if you don't know what you want to be when you're all grown-up. So, I would say we're not informing kids/parents enough about the kind of vocations/jobs available - they only focused on lawyer, football player or construction in my years - and we're testing people way too early.
For those who've gone through the Dutch education system, what is your experience/opinion? TYPO CORRECTION, at 02:49 that should be "VWO" and also at 02:53. Sorry about missing that!
Also, shout out to my guy Tygo www.youtube.com/@Tygootten and his friend Justin for helping behind the lens! Go check out his channel :)
Yes it is a problematic system. In my case (which was a long time ago) I scored very high on the standardized test, however those tests are only one input, and I ended up on track I didn't really want to be on. Ironically, it contributed to me ending up in the USA. Unfortunately, adults such as the teachers and parents can override those results and direct the child to a different track. At the age when the standardized testing is performed the child cannot really express their desires and have to depend largely on the parent's ability to manage that the right decisions are made for the child's future, which is not always something the parents are able to. I think overall the Dutch system is a good one, but the rigidness of the tracks and how these standardized tests influence a child's future at such early age is not a good aspect of the Dutch system.
Ayyyeeeee great job tygo!!!
Depends on how you look at it. Looking at the result of what The Netherlands is in an international context: Highly economically, technologically, and socially advanced (and super rich, not "all important" but still...). The result of this system is that we're one of the most successful countries in the world (Sorry USA your rich people may be richer but your poor people are very, very, very poor.) That is in part because of the way we educate (read: structure/classify) people. The way this country works/is organised, structured, and designed it's all a result of this education system.
I'm not saying the system doesn't have flaws. Personally I fare very well in this system but up close, in my family my sibling didn't fare well. The system couldn't proces people like like him. And it's very Dutch to than think: You 'as a person' failed!! No, the system failed him and many others like him. Whenever a system becomes the norm there are outliers who then think: There is something wrong with me. And that just isn't the case (and the Netherlands is shifting in this regard. Even if it hasn't changed physically yet.) But... wokeness is real and everywhere: in the most positive sense. Minorities are being heard!
Something that we can definitely learn from, say the USA is: seeing an artistic scholar, a sport scholarship as being different BUT EQUAL to a science scholarship or an econometrics scholar.
People like Beyonce or Lebron James wouldn't survive our system and they wouldn't be able to flourish in it because our national identity (not our international identity, cause we're fans) doesn't really see their gifts/talents as scientifically and economically valid or worthwhile in an of itself.
There is a Dutch-template over-appreciation of one type of person the: economics, manager, bank, mathematics, science, Microsoft Excel person and an under-appreciation of people who aren't like that.
"That's not a real job Karen, that's a hobby!"
Sums it up nicely =)
I started at Havo, but in the first year they noticed I could do more so my secondary school offered me to go to Vwo. So the second year I started doing Vwo.
At the end, did I do something with my education? No. I started doing university afterwards, wasn't for me. Dropped out and went to HBO, which better fitted me but due to Corona my mental went backwards quite quickly so I dropped out of it to. Now I am just working 40 hours a week at a job where I was studying for and part of my "work" is studying and I am getting paid for that.
For the part of choosing a profile early, if you don't know what you want to do. You can pick a quite general profile that allowes you to do anything after secondary school.
Also even if you don't like the direction you went, you still have experience and knowledge. Employers are still interested, if you say I learned A, but I want to do B. That paper of you being able to come in school for so many years and suceeding is most often enough to get the job and start working/learning at the job. With the exceptions like being a doctor etc. Some jobs you really need an eduction for.
It used to be better than it is now. I consider the education I got to be the dutch education at the peak of it's performance. When I got into it, it was improving, when i finished it, it was declining. I especially loved the fact that I was quite free to choose the disciplines, as only Dutch was mandatory and English unless you already picked two foreign languages. It gave met the oppertunity to choose math B (mainly about functions and their derrivitives and integrals) as well as math A (mainly statististics and logistics), something that's impossible to choose now since the change to preformatted profiles where you can only pick one of four profiles.
Being Dutch and 17, there are two important points you and the people in the videos missed, probably because they're just not that young anymore;
1 Scholengemeentschappen. These are schools that have multiple levels of educations in one school. This makes it very easy to switches levels if you were put in the wrong class. It's why first grad secondary school is called 'brugklas' because so many people switch. It's pretty normal for people to switch in that first year. Even in later years, if one level turns out to be too difficult, there a lot of options for you to switch around. The girl complained about higher eduction, which is a totally different story, but in secondary, the three level system although not perfect, shouldn't be much of a problem and is very moveable if your on a scholengemeentschap. (Gymnasium or simple schools with only one level are another story though. It was hardbreaking when I had a friend who couldn't keep up with gymnasium-level and had to move schools. But that's the risk of sending your child to a simple school/gymnasium. There are probably more scholengemeentschappen in your neighbourhood than these 'simple schools' so that's not really a valid arguement against the three level system.)
2 Recently, the weight of the CITO-test has been cast away. Now, the Cito is only used as a help for the teacher. Now, it's teacher, student and parents who decide. Back in the day is would be like 75% cito and 25% teacher, student and parents. But now it's more like 75% parents, teacher and student and 25% cito or cito is not even used at all in the advice that the teachers give to the parents about to which secondary school level their child should go.
Of course, the system still isn't 100% fair and perfect and you could ask questions about when 'the division' should begin. But personally, I'm very gladfull for doing gymnasium instead of 'aceing secondary school' like I hear about from Americans.
In a way however the CITO score can be more fair sometimes then teachers, teachers can give people a lower advice then their CITO score was, when the CITO score becomes less important it means those scenario's happen more often
I'm in the second grade of secondary school and the primary school years were pretty long, my expiences with it have bern okay so far
Mijn zoon zit op een school waar je de vaken kan volgen op wat je aan kan. Dus bijvoorbeeld Nederlands, Engels op theoretische leerweg en wiskunde op gemengde leerweg. De leerlingen maken zelf hun rooster en kunnen 6 studie uren inzetten op vakken waar ze meer uitleg voor willen In het tweede jaar kies je vakken waar je examens in wil doen maar dat zijn er meer dan je nodig hebt. In leer jaar 3 kies je definitief. Ze hebben ook 1 extra examen zo dat je later kan door stromen naar HBO. We spreken niet meer van hoger of lager maar een andere leerweg. Op deze school leer je ook veel buiten de school door al lessen te volgen op het MBO, HBO maar ook bij bedrijven zodat ze kennis maken met de keuzes. Mijn zoon ging met 11 jaar naar de brugklas nu is hij 13 jaar en gaat naar de derde. Veelste jong nog om te weten wat hij later wil gaan doen. Daarom voor een school gekozen waar meer kan. Maar ook spannen omdat het heel anders is dan het ouderwetse. Mijn zoon ging als enige naar die school maar het is de goede keuze geweest gelukkig.
@@wendyvanderfange3869 Wow Wendy, ik heb nog nooit van zo'n school in Nederland gehoord. Is dat nog steeds openbaar onderwijs? En hoe heet deze school of dit type middelbare school?
Totally agree. I wanted to go to an independent Gymnasium but because there were some doubts about my working speed, my parents put me in a scholengemeenschap, where I did Atheneum (VWO) with Latin. I think that was a very safe choice. I still could perform to my full potential but there was a safety net. Later on my brother did go to the independent Gymnasium and he was glad about that too, because he thinks that if there had been an opportunity for him to go 'down' to HAVO, he would have done that, which he would have regretted later.
So yeah, it's quite easy so switch tiers when you are in a scholengemeenschap, and that is the most common form of schools nowadays. If you choose a school with just one single tier, you have to be very sure of yourself, but that type of schools is getting more and more rare. In the past there used to be much more independent MAVO (VMBO-T) schools for example.
By the way, there are scholengemeenschappen with an included Gymnasium tier. Just not in the city where I went to school.
I was one of those kids who got an advice different from what my test indicated. My dad is Moroccan and my mom is Dutch. According to my test, I could do havo. Teacher's advice was mavo. They really wanted to send me to mavo. My mom fought to get me to havo. In the end, they compromised and I went to a mavo/havo class. After two years I went to havo. I finished with good grades. I went to do hbo for 1 year and after that went to university. I now have a master's degree.
Thank you for sharing your story, Saida! Nice that your parents were able to fight for what they felt was really best for you. That's something I learned in the conversation with the teacher, that that's something really important to have in this system.
Lower school level advice than aptitude happened to my daughter as well, she’s mixed race and only had 1 Cito score below A, but still no VWO advice. My daughter did the lower advice level HAVO instead of VWO bc it was a Musical Havo and she wanted time to train Dance 3/4 times a week after school. I have to add that her teacher discouraged her to audition for musical class bc she was very shy, but she got in anyway. The highschool said they didn’t need a full class of lead roles and she ended up being one of the best students. She graduated with Dance as her optional Havo course.
Her Classmate with dyslexia did the VWO level despite the Havo advice at a school specialized in Dyslexia. It all depends on your priorities and how well your parents advocate for you at the schools and inform you of your options.
I did explain to my daughter that if she would want to do a Science degree, it would take a bit longer. For her it was healthier to train 3/4 times a week instead of having more classes and work harder for her homework.
They are both studying at HBO now, in hindsight it didn’t make a difference.
Everyone can move up with the right mindset, some kids just need more time. Some (young) adults are better off with the plethora of trainings for professionals available in the Netherlands. A lot of teenagers like to be met/challenged at their intelligence level in school and would get bored in a one size fits all school system.
It’s up to you, that’s what I like about this system. Never let a school advice or CITO score take your power away!
Same here. Not the university part. I did Art school. But I got into the mavo/havo group because my parents got on a warpath. I graduated havo with flying colors.
I think the test should have more weight than the advice.
By a lot. I think a lot of primary school teachers are really poor judges of the capabilities of a child, and might have all kinds of biasses.
I'm a Dutch guy, but grew up in a different country for the first 10 years of my life.
I had the highest tests scores of my class, but got LBO/MAVO advice from my teachers. Fortunately back then parents were just allowed to ignore the advice.
I did WVO with ease and a Masters in Physics.
Same here i got havo on my test but got send to vmbo-kader at the time i was 11 so i didnt know how much of an influence it could have.
I really miss the fact that you can quite easily go to a HAVO after completing the MAVO or VWO after completing HAVO. This path normally adds one year to the education (so going from MAVO to HAVO is 4+2 years instead of just doing HAVO in 5 years ). Some institutes (like Luzac) even allow you to do this in one year.
It is mentioned that it's possible to switch to different levels, but no one mentioned it as "easy", so I guess that's the part you missed haha.
@@exploringtheforeign Oh it is very easy, believe me :) I "climed" from mavo to havo and then again from mbo to hbo, the other way around is also possible, it is scarily easy to put a student to a lower level if their grates aren't high enough.
@@yula3723 upward movement got less easy than it used to be though.
@@exploringtheforeign it the easiest thing ever, you just tell your mentor at school you wanna do havo after mavo and they sign you up 😂
@@exploringtheforeign I wouldn't say it is easy, but doable . I know a guy had a difficult time age 15 and dropped to vmbo from Havo. Age 16 finished mavo/vmbo-level4 . Went to a tec MBO , after 2 of 3 years moved up to a HBO-tec. after 3 years graduated for the Bsc engineer title . At age 20-21. And then followed a 14 month Master course of a UK tec Uni , global top 5 rank in the world in that field, which was offered as dependancy in the Netherlands.
A top 5 ranked Msc engineer title at age 22. You're not gonna get that faster in NL anywhere else !
Given, after the drop to vmbo , he was very driven to the bone and ambitious to succeed.
And his home situation was also an higher educated family, so it is easier to find a way than for one from a blue collar family i reckon ....
(That said I know farmers sons who did the same path ..)
For what I read and see : the rat race in the US to get a good scholarship at uni, or else to pay ridiculous college fees is a lot tougher in my impression .... Especially for lower class students.
And contrary to the american dream myth, there is nowadays more upward mobility in Europe than the US ... which is a sign ...
That said : It was really bad decision to scrap the 'Study Finance' allowance for studentsfor full loans. Especially for lower income , lower class that is a lot more difficult. (Last year it was installed again. ). And in general life for young people is a lot more difficult the past decade in NL too .. (especially without wealthy parents ..).
NB : In the past there was the LTS , 'Lower Technical School' , instead of the more generalistic vmbo. A lot of employers and companies want the LTS-MTS school line back , because it developed excellent trades people . They delivered very well skilled carpenters, bricklayers , mechanics, machine controllers etc, at a better level and more in line with industry demand than nowadays with the more generalistic vmbo. It was more in line with the very professional trades school system in Germany. The level was much higher than in the current generalistic system in NL (and als better than what the USA develop in vocational trades ...).
And actually these skilled trades are nowadays more in demand and with similar, or even higher, salaries as a lot of college graduates ! (My brother has never been 'in between jobs' , for example ).
So the 'bad press' of following vmbo-mbo is not correcct !!
I am one of those who started at VMBO and through MBO made it to HBO. For me this has surely been an advantage, because I am one of the few that has a HBO degree backed up with a lot of practical skills and experience. So I do think, your chances are not decided at the age of 11 or 12. It's your own intelligence and motivation to reach a certain level. Next to that, I must say that I had the pleasure to work for employers who supported a good education.
Yes same for me currently doing HBO and at the end of my second year and only 20 with a MBO diploma already in the pocket adding more value to me due to internships and the things I learned at my MBO
Welke mbo?
To be honest, I think it's incredibly fair. More so than the American system which is 'one size fits all' until you finish highschool. Reality is, not all students are equally good at learning from books. Forcing students to tackle studies way above their abilities will just ruin them. Likewise, not challenging the more booksmart students isn't good either. Essentially, the Dutch system attempts to deliver 'maatwerk': education geared towards each and every individual student. That doesn't mean it's perfect, obviously. The video mentioned that switching 'level' or 'profile' can be quite hard. That should be made easier. But even as is, I think the Dutch education system is one of the best in the world.
But in the US you can take classes at higher or lower levels. If you are good at math, you could take advanced math for example. I think that is better in a way, because in the dutch system if you go to havo, for example and you are good at math, it's gonna be too easy for you, but you could be bad at languages and have to struggle through 3 years of havo level french and german that you will never use in your future tech career. You might even be so bad at language that you fail havo and have to drop down to mavo, forcing you to have to take a longer path to where you want to be. It can also make you feel really stupid, since people often talk down to the lower levels. If you could have just dropped down a level in those language courses you could have still gotten your diploma, since you don't need one of those languages to graduate. I do think it's good that there is more focus on practical education on the lower levels though.
@@ST-vt4nuSo the thing in HAVO and VWO you choose your profile in 3th grade of highschool when your around 15 and I believe you choose your profile in 2nd grade on mavo. With these profiles you don't have total freedom with which subjects you choose but you do have some options. For example when you're not good in math on vwo you can choose an easier kind of math and on havo and mavo you can choose to drop it. It's the same thing for languages. For example I was shit in languages so I didn't do a third language, Dutch and English cant be dropped.
@@lucasmit7786 ik denk niet dat je goed gelezen hebt pik 😅
@@ST-vt4nuthat's not entirely true. In the Dutch system for vwo for example there are 4 different courses of math. In order of difficulty (from easy to hard) Math C, A, B, D (confusing right?). This also is the case in havo and vmbo, but i don't know to which extend. For example, I doubt that there is a Math D class at havo and vmbo.
Furthermore, there are also 4 profiles at vwo and havo (i don't know for vmbo), which start from the 4th year (age 15/16) and each focus on a different path. N&T main focus is physics; N&G is bioligy; E&M is economy and C&M is culture. The details differ per highschool.
Lastly there are 'loose' choices. Like weather you choose German or French or weather you take 1 or 2 extra courses that arent in your profile. Again, highschool dependent.
@@PEGGY18MAFIA i disagree that there is a difficulty order with the types of math. A and B are just different, not one inherently meant to be easier or more difficult than the other. i personally think B is easier but it depends per person. D is basically meant to be "B and a bit of A but harder" (and yes you can do D at havo, though a lot of it are thing that vwo includes at B). and D can also only be done if you also do B. what C is i have no idea. i heared it exists but i have never been to a school that teaches it or have i heared about a student who studies it...
also the profiles are very customisable. each has only a couple of mandatory subject, then a few that you can choose from a list based on profile and then some open space so if you really want to do history with N&T you can do that for example. i did N&T but my combination of subject coincidentally also makes a valid N&G profile so i could do a study based on N&G if wanted to (i dont, but i could)
So I moved to the Netherlands from Ghana at the age of 15 years. When I got there I had to take a test to start school. I was told I was going to do a math test. What kind of math test they didn’t tell me for me to prepare. Coming from an English speaking country I took the math test and they put me at VBO. I started school in January 1991. Learning Dutch 4 hours back to back everyday. At the age of 15 years learning Dutch was extremely difficult for. In my 3rd year I was advised to do MAVO because VBO was under my level. All things they were teaching I was already taught back in Ghana. Because of the language barrier I felt like I wasted 3 years (instead of 4 years) of my life learning the same thing I was already taught. I finished VBO in 2000 and started MBO which I completed in 3 years. Still the language was hard for me. I started HBO in 2003 and decided I was going to do an English course because honestly speaking I felts like if I used the Dutch language I wouldn’t get to where I wanted. I graduated in 2007 with my bachelor degree. In 2011 I decided I wanted to get my masters degree. I had do a pre-master and then the real masters which I graduated in 2013. I’m giving you the timeline of my education. 3 years VBO, 3 years MBO, 4 years HBO and 2 years (University education: pre-master and master) making a total of 12 years education in the Dutch education system is not easy. Only if you are really motivated or have a support system pushing you do do your best will make your finish your education. Most of my friends (who we all started in 1996 when we came from Ghana and other countries) dropped out from school at an earlier stage. I feel like the education system is too complicated and very long for most people who are considered low level students. Lucky for me I came from educated family. There was always motivation and people always wanted to know about your school progress so it pushes me to also go. Now I live in New Jersey. I have a good job with my education from the Netherlands. The Dutch education systems is good but there are flaws which should be put under the microscope especially for foreigners who come in at a young age
Thank you for telling your story! This was very insightful and I think many who read it will feel the same. How do you like it in New Jersey?
Well. Ik seems too me a great deal of your problemen were because you didn’t speak dutch naturally, so you had a difficult time understanding what you were teached. If i would emigratie to a country which language I do not speak, and I would learn their language, I would have a hard time as well. It would be quite strange that you would be teached in another language, say English, in the Netherlands. I think it wasn’t primarily the system you had trouble with, it was another language than you spoke naturally.
For me, coming from primary school going to secondary school (middelbaar onderwijs) it was such a relief to be among people who felt more like my kind. I was the odd one out in primary school. The different education level fitted me much better and the people in the new school also. There are simply big differences between groups of kids, their social skills, their interests, their behaviours...
Yes this!
Same, it helps to be with other students who work at your speed.
Same here, I can't imagine spending another 6 years in a class where all levels are combined. My "brugklas" existed of mavo-havo and havo -vwo level kids, I got straight up VWO advice, our classes sometimes went so slowly, I was happy to get to a VWO -class in year 3.
I went from Mavo all the way to university, which I guess shows the strenghts and weaknesses of our system. At 12 I wasn't quite ready for highschool or needed more support, but I was able to work my way up anyway. Obviously this took longer, so it could only happen because my parents were willing and able to support me.
Same here. MAVO -> HAVO -> VWO -> University
Same! Havo/TL -> TL -> Almost KL cuz my school sucked.
School swap -> TL -> Havo -> HBO -> WO
I think that the path you has followed, shows that you have a lot of perserverence, which only can be admired!
I may be an exception, but I never thought the school choice came too early in life for me. As a mediocre student school was always hard work. I did primary school (basisschool), secondary school (MAVO, now called VMBO I believe), MBO (MTS, middle vocational technical school) and HBO (HTS, higher vocational technical school). It was not an easy school course, lots of ups and downs, but every school came on the right time and was on the right pace for me. And I had a upward career, I have a great technical job, with good earnings, in construction, two days a week on building sites and the rest on the office. I wouldn’t want another career and I was very lucky participating in the Dutch school system. So school choice too early? Not for me.
Really nice to hear your story! It definitely sounds like the system worked well for you.
My teachers told me I wasn't the brightest kid in the class, as they sent me off to Vmbo-t.
What they didn't know is that I had a rough childhood which made studying virtually impossible for me at that age. My teacher told me (as a 12 year old kid) that I scored very underwhelming on my Cito and that I was probably not gonna be "anything special" in life career-wise. I spent the majority of my life thinking I was "dumb" because of this.
Thankfully my therapist advised me to do an IQ test a few years ago. Only then did I realise I was not stupid at all, I was gifted even. I worked my way up ever since then (which costed me a lot of time and money). I'm now studying Psychology at a university, and I couldn't be happier.
Crazy how the misjudgement of one single teacher from when you where 12 can have such a big impact on someone. This system is flawed, especially for kids who are a little different.
It's crazy how harsh they said that too, like they clearly were just being mean at this point. All they needed to say is 'it is a bit on the lower side, but you could always still work your way up' or anything along those lines. Saying you will never be anything special is so fucked to say to anyone but especially a kid. We suck up what adults say like a sponge at that age and it gets ingrained into us. I'm glad you went to therapy and discovered you are much more than the self-image you had!
But wouldn't you find out that the level was too low when you was placed in VMBO-TL from the getgo? After two years you can get to havo I think. Maybe VWO was just a bit too much because of the things you where experiencing and you would do the route backwards, which is far worse... I don't think the schoolsystem is wrong here, The fact that the teacher said that you werent the brightest and all that is just rude and mean and I do not agree with that ;). The advice though: turn it around and think that climbing up the schoolsystem is far better than falling down.
I really think calling it unfair is harsh.I do definitely agree that at 12 years old most kids don't know what their future will be like, but thanks to experiences from personal life and from daytrips with school, I definitely had an idea which direction I wanted to go and the system made it possible to focus on the right subjects and not have to worry about things that weren't relevant for where I wanted to get.
Since there are still opportunities to change, I think it's great that children are given the choice early on, but preparing for the choice is an essential part of that, and I do have the feeling that isn't as good anymore as it was in the 80s
I always hear people make the things mentioned in this video into very big theoretical issues(especially the advice at primary school), but in practice I've never seen or heard any of these things be actual big issues. In most cases, the worst thing is that you have to study an additional year. And let's face it, most people won't mind that. Especially in hindsight. In practice it's also pretty easy to switch.
Or just look at my sister. She hasn't finish middle school(dropped out in the second year). She does however have two university degrees. She did 2 years of middle school, 4 years MBO, 1 year HBO and 4+1 year of university. That's 12 years in total.
Meanwhile the fastest normal route is: 6 years of VWO + 4+1 years of university is 11 years.
Now sure, that's a rather unconventional route, but it does show the possibilities.
Also, you don't need to finish HBO to get to university. So the issue with the girl in the video isn't so much the education system, but more her not knowing what she wants and/or not planning her school career. The fact that she finished something and then started thinking she can do more, simply isn't an issue any school system can fix.
I do agree with the guy that says that we're too focused on 'higher' = better(at ~7:25). It's even baked into the language itself. If you want to be a carpenter you're 'lower educated'. That's just a really poor way of looking at things imo.
That teacher also has some good points, though I feel most of those were minor issues at best. The problem with a lot of those points was also that I don't really see a way around those issues. If your parents don't(or can't) invest in you, you'll both be a worse student and also come across as an even worse student. I don't think that's something a school system can fix, unless of course you remove difficulty distinctions and throw everyone onto one heap -- which gets you a whole lot of new problems and throws away the entire principle our schooling system in based on.
Overall I feel the education system is pretty good and that with some tweaks it could be even better. I at least don't think we have big structural issues like the education system in the US, where schools are paid by district the school is based in(poor neighborhood = bad school) and where you have to go to the school in your district.
In 5th and 6th VWO we had a number of HAVO students who wanted to go to university, and they all made it.
I myself had to double one year in VWO which meant that the path we took was exactly the same number in years.
In university there were students who started with VMBO, did MBO, worked for a few years, did HBO (part-time) and ended up at university. Their path was different, but their final position was the same. And they had far more practical knowledge compared to those who did VWO, like me.
During my career, I saw a lot of co-workers who stepped up one or two levels, who did HBO next to their job and went to university afterwards.
Also, one of my co-workers was with me in primary school, and struggled with theory. In VMBO he became a skilled carpenter, and at work he was very appreciated because he repaired anything in no-time.
It is in US perception that people who work with their hands and less with their brains are considered of less value.
In the Netherlands we respect each other because of who we are, a good (wo)man and nice co-worker.
And we know someone can be a jerk, no matter what education they had.
You still have the opportunity to switch schools afterwards. As I was an 'early' student the primary school advised my parents to redo 8th grade and than I would be able to go to the HAVO. Against their advise I went to the MAVO. After that I entered the MBO. Without my internship I went to the HBO after 3 years.
Maybe that path is longer but it still brought me a bachelor's and gave me the same opportunities as someone that followed a more direct path.
The biggest difference that we have not the 'sports' foundation that is so present in the US. That makes me wonder if some students deserve their degree based on their sports abilities or their study qualities.
Another thing is that we need people that learned a trade. I saw it in my first job that guys went to a more 'lower' practical education were better with hands-on work. We might know how to do it but they can do it.
Also as far as I remember after the first year in MAVO you could still make a switch to HAVO.
At my MAVO in the third grade some people that finished the LEAO were added, they were older than us.
So according to me everyone has the same opportunities but the track length can differ.
Thank you for sharing your experience, John! I'm aware of the opportunity of being able to switch schools later, I guess for me, the problem lies with already being placed in a certain track so early. And each of these individual tracks lead to completely different job opportunities down the line. So in a sense, you're already determining a kids future really early. And once again, I'm aware that you can move up later, which sounds ideal, but I would imagine in practice that it's hard for the average person to be motivated enough to move outside of their track. But maybe I'm wrong.
@@exploringtheforeign
I studied at an HBO academy on a young age, following a direct path via VWO. I had a fellow classmate who was somewhat older. After primary school he first went to the LTS, then did MTS, HTS and then finally went to this HBO Academy. He was more mature, experienced, and had less problems with working/studying harder than me, because he was used to having to put in the effort and to have discipline, where I wasn't used to. He was very motivated. I think that he had a slower/longer but steadier learning path than me, but developed in a more allround manner. So, to me it's proof that if the potential and motivation is there, the system is flexible enough to find your path.
Bytheway, the Brugklas isn't mentioned. It's the first year after primary school, which is a general schoolyear after which students finally decide which secondary education they want to do and can switch directions.
@@exploringtheforeign I also didn't experience it as a problem. More or less during the MAVO and MBO I was studying at the latest moment. Often the morning before the test. So it came pretty easy to me. With my hands-on Chemistry exam, after the formalities about what was expected, I was outside within 10 minutes.
Maybe I could have gone to the HAVO anyway despite the advise of the CITO.
My brother went to the HAVO and after the primary year was placed in the Atheneum track. But he dropped out in 5th grade (more-or-less his decan told my parents he had to leave school as he was troublesome). He started the MTS in the same year as I did while he was a year older. He too went to the HTS later. I had to drop out of the HTS in the second grade because I was unable to get passing grades for mathematics. Still had to do my practical year for the MTS and serve in the AirForce for my number. I started at the same company where my brother started a year earlier, and I guess comparing his paycheck with mine was a big stimulator. So I went to the evening-HBO. Did 3 years in Amsterdam for an associate degree and after that 2 years to Arnhem for another associate degree. With an additional year in Arnhem I could combine the two associate degrees to obtain my BS.
Amsterdam was 3 evenings and Arnhem was 1 day (2pm-10pm).
Although Inwas struggling with math in the day track of the HTS I did it with 2 fingers up my nose in the evening track. A lot has to do with the used materials and the explanation given. But maybe it also had to do that at the day HTS I had to put effort in that during my mavo-mts track wasn't used to give.
Both my brother and me like the hands-on work, we rather put (despite our degree) the overall on ourselves and be in touch with the equipment. At my last job in the Netherlands I was Technical Consultant at a BIG telecom company, I was expected to assist sales, project managers and our engineers and technically design installations. I spent a lot of time with the engineers on site as I liked to fiddle around with the equipment in stead of just writing it down.
The CITO is a big thing, and is indeed a form of classification of the intelligence level of a kid. We had two kids at the elementary school that we all knew weren't bright students, for them I guess it was a good thing they were placed at an ambachtsschool where they get a more practical form of education in stead of let them struggle at a more difficult level.
I agree that it’s possible to climb up if you want to, but I don’t think it’s as easy for everyone. Depending on your personal situation; like for instance, when you come from a family that has a lot of issues and you don’t have adults to support you at such a young age, it will be a lot harder to get where you would like to be and the chance is much bigger you won’t get there.
@@Lars_erik but the question is whether that's a flaw in this system. Such a person would have trouble in any system I think. I guess it"s the main reason why it's so hard to get out of a low education environment. If you"re not motivated, able or allowed to do homework you can't expect to reach a higher level anywhere.
Sam, you found a pretty hard topic to discuss, it was informative. I think the Dutch system is a lot like the German system and kids get directed very early. This is good and bad. The one thing that isn't mentioned is that as a young person there in the Netherlands you grow up knowing that if try and if you have some talent you can shoot for the moon and make it at very little cost. In the USA higher education is a for profit industry and being able to get into university depends a lot on having the MONEY and the talent and so, as a result, a lot of human potential is lost.
Thank you, George! And thank you for sharing your perspective. Yes, in the US, higher education cost is INSANE.
I never forget an article I read about MBO. That other countries see it as a great way to school all kind of practical workers but that it has a low reputation in the Netherlands itself. I am glad that MBO students are now allowed to go to student bars, also get an introduction week and get free public transport, just like HBO and university.
My path was that I scored 549 (max score is 550) on the cito test in 8th grade, that was my first cito test ever because my school didn't want to put children through a lot of test, it's just one moment and the teacher sees the kid the whole year, so the teachers' advice was way more important. Went to gymnasium (vwo + Greek/Latin) and crashed from all the high expectations at the 5th year. Now I'm 27 and finishing adult school vwo this year so I can still go to university, I really want to go into research, medical biology. So if someone doesn't follow the perfect path, there are always options. In my class there are students with a ton of different stories, students with mental health problems that don't do well in a big school, students that were too lazy in normal high school that need a bit more personal attention so they focus more on school instead of everything around it, students who still need to learn Dutch more but have more potential and need a bit more explanation and translation, students who already have 2 kids and a home but always wanted to be ... (name it, doctor, teacher) and still can go for that. Chronic illnesses, parents going through divorce in their last year, you name it, there are so many reasons why one can not finish high school. So many. And this is also a government subsidized school so we pay around 120 euros a year per subject. So I have 4 this year, German, German havo (because I haven't had German in 11 years and now I have twice as much classes), drawing and chemistry and paid 500 euros for this year (including printing and drawing materials on that 480). That covers all classes and all exams.
I always say good things take time.
Depends. MBO Verpleegkunde? Respectable. MBO Elektrotechniek? Very respectable. MBO Allround welder? Pleasepleaseplease come work for us.
MBO 'Leisure studies'? Trash, whoever puts such a thing on their resume might as well write 'I am a failure, don't waste time on me' there, as the effect on prospective employers will be the same.
Same applies to other 'hip and fun' studies.
The financial measures were justified as MBOs are everywhere, so less travel expenses to get there. Also university costs more than twice as much a year, so far less debt if you do MBO instead.
Sam, this was such an interesting video. As an educator in the US and your mom, I thought this was so insightful and such a good topic to explore. I do like parts of their system and I also agree with you that there should be more time given to kids to know who they are before deciding who they will be careerwise. Thank you again for such a very interesting video.
Hi Sams mom, hope you had a good trip back home. Yes, Sam is doing a good job putting the spot on subjects that matter. You must be very proud of him.
Learning level is not decided by one single test but by eight years in primary school. Teachers have big influence when the test results are not typical for a pupil. Getting an education level that suits a teen isn't bad. They can be the best at their level, instead of the dummy that doesn't get math or physics.
The more practical path can lead to the same position, maybe with a longer study, or even a few years of work in between. It is not a verdict. My cousin became an electrician, worked, studied, worked and finally graduated at university. Had he been send to higher education (theory, languages, history etc.) when he was young, he surely had become a disappointed drop-out. Now he knew 'I can do more.', which motivated him to continue on his path. And an electronic specialist doesn't need to know the architectural styles of old Greece, nor speak Latin...
Thank you, mom
@@ingridwatsup9671 thank you so much! I’m in awe of what he’s doing.❤️
@@cherylh.1537 That's more important than grades! Being satisfied and proud on what your kids do in life. And thinking, I did a good job raising them to what they are.
Hello Sam, I just learned about your channel from the Easy Dutch video, and have already watched several videos of yours and loved them. I'm commenting on this one even though it covers a more serious topic because it's the most recent one, but i just wanted to say that I thoroughly enjoyed seeing how you interact with people, being kind and respectful and seeing how that reflects back positively on their reaction with you. Specially now on the social media days, it's very easy to portray some culture as being closed and serious because they didn't want to interact with some vlogger shoving a camera at their faces, and you are doing a great job at proving that kindness and respect to the people and their culture can go a long way to get to know how nice they are. I'm starting to learn Dutch and your videos got me more excited about going through it. Keep it up, great stuff, you've got a new fan.
Wow! Thank you for this comment/feedback. It really means a lot. I hope you continue to enjoy the videos going forward🙌🏾
If you need any tips on learning Dutch, feel free to contact me!
Good subject. Making those decisions at such a young age is hard. Good to see you covering diverse subjects. The fun subjects like carnaval and the serious subjects like the education system. You don’t screw around. You are a pro. Keep the great videos coming Sam. ❤❤❤
Thanks, Michel! Gotta keep you on your toes! haha
I'm glad you enjoyed the video! :)
Splittting the school system in different levels makes sure that if you are on the right level, you won't fall behind because it's too hard for you or become bored or complacent because it's too easy. I think that it's a good idea but the execution could be better, for example people should be able to switch to a higher or lower level relatively quickly if it's obvious that it's too easy or hard for them, instead you got to wait an entire school year!
They force us to chose a specific profile way too soon though. At that age almost no one knows what they want, having your career path be 'permanently' locked in at that age is very stressful and does more bad than good if you ask me. This caused me to have very limited education choices post middelbare school and forced me into an education course that i did not like and i dropped out within 2 years. Took me a few years of just working and earning some money at a 0 qualification job and clearing my mind before i really figured out what direction i wanted to go in. This is more than half a decade after you're forced to pick your profile.
So much time wasted on preparing and learning for things you'll never end up doing, they really need to get rid of the rigidity in the Dutch educational system and make it as easy as possible for someone to switch levels or profile if it's clear that it's not working for them.
Thank you for sharing your perspective and experience! I agree with what you're saying. Unfortunate that the system caused some struggles for you, but I hope everything worked out in the end!
Wait a whole year? Not for me. I was placed at the MAVO, but excelled there and was going to the HAVO within three months. Which was at a different school. No problem whatsoever.
Teachers ignored my personal circumstances & recommened a school for children with special needs/ learning difficulties. When I walked away from my messy home situation as a teenager& left the Netherlands, I flourished. Now I have two Master of Science degrees (one from a top 10 world ranking University). My professors pursuaded me to go on to complete a PhD. I would never have got this far in the Netherlands.
Im only 0:30 in to the video but I already want to say that you video making skills have improved immensely!
Edit: Wow this was such a great video! You have made crazy improvements on your video making skills! I say it again. From the angles, transitions, green screens, and subtitles to the interviews, the questions and the guests. Let alone the editing; it was all amazing! Im sure you put a lot of time in to this video. Keep up the great work and I am sure that you will reach at least 100K subs in no time!
I myself am from The Netherlands and when I was 11 I also dit the 'CITO toets'. My advise was HAVO. But I also thought of the Dutch educational system as flawed. It just doesn't work. And when you compare it to other countries - especially the Scandinavian ones - then the educational system here (in The Netherlands) just doesn't make any sense. And I have been saying that since at least when I dropped out of school at age 14. But one more thing...
And I absolutely don't say this to hate, but there are some improvements to make to the subtitles... For example:
The subtitles at 2:48 and 2:53 say 'vbo' instead of 'vwo'. On 12:29 the guy says "I'm almost 23" but the subtitles say "I'm now 23" and the last thing I saw was that between 13:29 and 13:32 the subtitles said "een van de laatste dingen" twice in the suptitles while it was only said once.
But again man, great video! Keep up the good work!
Great feedback!
Aw man, this really means a lot!! Thank you! I definitely put quite a bit of effort into this video and it's really nice to see people see the improvement in quality.
Thank you for corrections as well; I called out the VBO mistake in my pinned comment. I knew what they said when speaking with them, just messed up when typing it out😩
Also, thank you for sharing your experience in the system. What stands out the most to you in terms of things in the system that are flawed?
@@exploringtheforeign The thing that stands out the most and I think is the most flawed are the levels of education. The VMBO, HAVO and VWO. If you really think about it, it doesn't really make any sense.
Lets say you are 10/11 years old and you do the CITO toets and it turns out that you are (really) bad at some subjects. They will send you to the VMBO where they will teach you those subjects at a lower level, which makes zero sense! If someone is bad at math lets say, the LAST thing you should do is educate such person with a lower level of math. The only thing this will accomplish is that this person will never get the chance to get good at math. And this is exactly what they do in the Netherlands. The right thing to do I would say is to give them more education on the topic so they learn to understand it better, rather then to keep them on a beginner level.
I really believe that there is way more potential in people then the Dutch educational system gets out of them. I think that if the VMBO, HAVO and VWO levels were dropped and everyone - no matter their CITO score - should go to the same type of school with the same educational program and get the same learning material, the whole society would be better off because people could get better opportunities more easily. And not only the opportunities are important but ofcoruse also the general learning that you do in the process. I just don't think it is fair to give some people more information than the others, based on the CITO score they had when they were just 10/11 years old. It is a really magnificent point in life where in most cases the direction of the persons whole career is made, but in most cases the person in question doesn't even know what they want to be when they grow up. So i really think it could be better. Way better. And it has been proven it could be better
My nephews were given vmbo because their school basically were adamant they weren't intelligent enough to do havo, but their parents didn't agree and basically went to war with school to get them to level they felt their sons belong. Their parents also told me that judging from what they often experienced in their lessons, the vmbo advice they received was because of racism (we are black). Today the younger one is studying computer programming in higher education and is doing great. The older one is studying international business. He left a couple of days ago to Japan to spend a semester at a university there, also doing great and enjoying his studies. Imagine if their parents just accepted the vmbo advice. The boys have told me often how lucky and proud they are their parents did what the did them.
But you can with VMBO stil go to hbo if you do after vmbo havo or MBO, so I don't understand the issue. I and my little sister did Vmbo, but we have studying at HBO level.
It's a bit of a mixed bag, I think. I experienced a lot of pressure from peers and teachers to perform well enough to get in the highest education levels. Eventually it all worked out for me, but a part of me keeps me wondering if I shouldn't have just gone a different route. I'm in medical school now, but I would've loved to learn a trade.
Wow! You must be really intelligent to be in medical school, in a country like The Netherlands.
Interesting, Max! What trade would you have learned? And what makes you doubt your current path of medical school?
@@exploringtheforeign I would've loved to learn woodworking. I've got a ton of friends who are masters of working with their hands, and some days I would love to just focus on what's in front of me, instead of having to worry about the 100s of things I have in the back of my mind related to quality patient care.
I'm 78 now and I had a very strange career at Dutch schools and at work ending up in Brussels. I went to school in an older somewhat comparable system. My parents were unhappy with the advice given by our school, when I was 12. The advice was a practical education (Ambachtsschool), but I did an exam and afterwards I was allowed to a middle level theoretical education (ULO), more in the direction for office jobs. The study was 4 years, but I needed 6 years and 2 schools, I had issues with foreign languages. After learning how to learn foreign languages, I finished with an elevated level of mathematics (ULO-B).
Afterwards I did Electrical Engineering in a technical college (HTS) in the 4 years needed for that education. During my first job I did a post-university study in Software Engineering from the University Twente (3 years, 2x 4 hours/week in the evenings). At work, I have tested prototypes of main frame computers, did run a software department, that did grow from 10 to 150 persons. Detected, that I preferred engineering and finished as chief-architect of the Overall Air Traffic Management Architecture project of Eurocontrol in Brussels (European FAA) in 2010.
By the way I had to learn myself, how to learn languages and that was hard repetitive work for me, completely different from mathematics, that came automatically with the wind. Currently I speak 5 languages; Dutch, English; German; Spanish and French. The levels are from good to very rusted after 25 years.
Good video! And I agree the career choice may be too early. One thing though: I do think it's easier to switch careers afterwards in the Netherlands compared to lets say the US because of all the work trajects/(online)courses/evening schools we have here that can be attended even when you are already working.
Thank you! And I have noticed that there are many unique/different kind of educations for whichever career path you're interested in. That's nice.
No it's way easier to switch jobs in the usa more than you realize.
@@rhizopus683 Yes, just as easy it is to get fired in the USA, while in The Netherlands, once you are on-contract, it is near impossible to be fired ;)
Some things from my experience.
At 12 years old I had no clue how important all these levels were. I was placed in the category HAVO/VWO but I told my mom I wanted to go to a school that only had MAVO because it seemed the most fun. My parents told me I needed to go to a school with at least HAVO level.
In high school there sometimes are inbetween levels as well. I was placed in a HAVO/VWO class, so we got assignments from both levels and after two years we got a advice on which was better suited to us. After that I continued in HAVO classes in the third year. In high school, if youre grades show you're clearly capable of doing a higher level, you can switch.
At 17 I had NO CLUE what I wanted to do after high school and it was one of the most stressful periods in my life. For every person I had reassuring me that it was going to be alright and I could just explore, I had four other people saying if I didn't choose right my career chances would be messed up.
People definitely can get placed in the wrong level if the teachers don't like them. I had a friend who got placed in vmbo and watched her work all the way into university.
The lady at 9:10 said she had to finish all 4 years of her MBO education before she could move to HBO. That already changed since then because at my education people were able to flow through to HBO after the second or third year. However you risk not having an MBO degree then, and if you're not able to graduate from HBO then you're left with no degrees.
I agree with the final statement. I like the system in theory but there's definitely change needed.
I myself was placed in havo when I was 12 years old, I made the CITO test and it said havo and the teacher agreed that I belonged there. I eventually chose a path in the 3rd year, and that was in the direction of culture and society, that's what I did in the 4th year. I liked art but still had some subjects that didn't connect with the rest like for example I chose geography, which I didn't like when I was 13-14, but when I was 15-16 I began liking that subject. As a person, you change. I didn't make it through havo because, I didn't have the motivation to finish it. Only because I didn't knew what I wanted to do when it came to work. So I eventually ended up at MBO niveau 4, I chose a study that didn't at all connect with what I did at the havo, because I was more free to choose what I really wanted. So I chose to do animal care, which I somewhat enjoyed, I did found my path a bit more there. Most MBO studies have a path but, you can take a sidepath if you want to, I like the freedom in that. In animal care there are a lot of different options, some you will like and some you won't. I might do a HBO study after this in the direction of nature and biology or archaeology. I'm not sure yet, now I do have a bigger surspective in what I want.
The Dutch education system does screw people up when they are young, the path when you don't finish the havo is quite nice though. You're a bit older then and you can choose better. I personally think when your around 16-18 years old, you are more likely to know what you want to become. So I definitely think we should change something that we can choose later in life what we want.
Thank you for sharing your story, Lonneke! You make some good pints. And good luck on your education journey!
as a dutch person finishing VWO next month, i dont like the system cus it creates a lot of social hierarchy- whether joking or not vmbo students are looked down upon hella, which can never be a good thing. also theres a big expectation on vwo students to aim for the best grades and become a doctor or something, while most of us are only here just because we never happened to fail and go down to havo haha
Interesting! Thank you for sharing. I had some of these assumptions already, but based on a few comments like these, I'm seeing it's really a thing.
wow sam, the production value is really improving, love your videos, watch literally every single one even tho I barely comment. Keep up the great work
Wow, thank you, for real!
When I was young, I used to struggle with black outs during tests. According to my test results when I was 12, I was supposed to do havo. My teacher suggested mavo, mainly because my dad is not Dutch which meant it ''would give me trouble with the Dutch language later on'' even though I was consistently having perfect scores on every subject, including Dutch (these test scores were seperate from the final test scores that gave me havo). My parents knew that I was capable of doing vwo with ease, so decided to fight for me. After many discussions with the teacher, I luckily got to go to vwo. I finished vwo with ease and now I am in university doing medicine and becoming a doctor. I am very lucky that my parents fought for me those days. I wouldn't know where I would have been otherwise. I have seen my teacher giving mavo advice to my class's best student, just because he used to be naughty and the teacher didn't like him. Sadly, most kids aren't as lucky as I was back then.
I love the way you enter this topic with an open mindset and really do the research. Love your video's and your vibe. Keep up the good work!
Dankjewel Jeroen!
For peeoeple that are interested in a more complex explenation. I'll just explain it through the eyes as if you were a kid growing through school.
First you start in the primary school consisting of 8 classes. You start school at age 3-5 depending on when you weree born and if the school year has alreeady started comperad to that. Class 1 & 2 are years to start fitting in the school and develloping socially and the kids start learning basic skills like writing, reading, music, dance, etc.
Once you have done your first 2 years you'll normally continue to class 3 where you start learning and working more for the first time. Nowadays kids might actually start learning English in this grade, but mostly ths years you just have writing, reading, calculating, Physical education, drawing/crafts and also stuff like history, nature and tech and topography.
When you reach class 5 your school schedule will change, until now it was always (most school) Mondays, tuesdays and thursdays 8:30-11:45, 13:15-15:30 wednesdays and fridays 8:30-11:45. Now your fridays will be like Mondays and wednesdays will last until 12:30. Also you'll start getting homework/(work you'll have to do indipentally in class) and you start getting new classes like english if you didnt have those yet.
Next big event is in class 7 where you get your provisionary advice, depending on how well your prestations are as well as your work ethic and behaviour.
Then the last year reaches youll make an important test that will show your intelligence (as far as it can) thene the teacher takes that and your behaviour and they will decide if you get to go to either Gymnasium, vwo, havo, mavo (vmbo-t), vmbo basis or vmbo kader although it smostly vwo/havo/mavo because the others are comparable to eachotheer but its a different approach.
Gymnasium: Same as vwo, but you'll also get latin and/or greek and will take you 6 years, you could immediatly go to university this route
vwo (Voorbereidend wetenschappelijk onderwijs/Atheneum): Basically the highest level you can get, but you dont have the latin or greek also takes 6 years which can lead you straight into university
havo(Hoger algemeen voortgezet onderwijs): You'll get to go straight into a HBO course, takes 5 years.
mavo(Middeelbaar algemeen voortgezet onderwijs, vmbo-t(l), voorbereidend middelbaar beroepsonderwijs-theoretische leerweg): Will get you straight into a MBO course and takes 4 years to complete
vmbo basis(voorbereidend middelbaar beroepsonderwijs basis): You'll get more classes about preparing you for a work life and train you to DO and not to THINK as much, also takes 4 years, but you can only get up to MBO level 2 with a certificate of this education.
vmbo kader(voorbereidend middelbaar beroepsonderwijs kader): The same as vmbo basis, but you'll be able to get to MBO 3/4 instead of 2. depending on if you chose a specialisation or not.
Phew, ok. So you start you second school depending on what school you chose you can also add extra classes like Technasium where you'll be more busy with practical/tech parts this is for havo or vwo only, tto (twee talig onderwijs) which is where all except language classes are given in english, theres more ofcours but i cant name them all.
The first years on mavo, havo and vwo start. You have Dutch, English, Mathematics, Physics, Biology, French and Physical education, Geography, History Arts and you may also have music, drama or other added classes.
You can only continue to the second class if your gradelist has only 2 insufficients (1x a
Yessssss this is such a good video! Just to illustrate I'll share a bit of my life. In primary school I was doing quite well, so everyone assumed I should go to university, myself included. I did vwo, did a bit of HBO 'for fun' and went to university. I always felt very unhappy during my studies. Last year, so at 34 ! , after years of boring office jobs, I decided to take a leap and learn a craft (paid learning). This is an MBO job, which implies a low status. I love this job so much! However, I am an exception to what people expect, so I get to experience a lot of "interesting remarks". Dutch society is so segregated through its education system!
Interesting! Thank you for sharing your story, it helps me have more of an understanding of people's real experiences through the system. I'm glad you enjoyed the video :)
Smart move, enjoying something you have to do for decades to come is important.
Also the emphasis on getting a degree has resulted in a real shortage of skilled craftsmen/women. There's more money to be made there than with several college degrees.
I haven't seen a lot of comment that when though my experience.
I was put into VWO when I started secondary education (middelbare) but it was wayyy too hard for me. I suffered for two years before I went to HAVO, a "level lower" aka less theoretic and more practical.
I had such a culture shock when I entered HAVO. Suddenly everything was doable and I didn't die from insane amounts of stress.
It's been four years now and I'm still learning to deal with the anxiety and fear of failure those first two years gave me.
The pressure to be in "the highest level" is not healthy and it is absurd that we see it as levels. The 'higher levels' are just more theoretical and less practical, and Vice versa.
This country has placed a lot of value on cognitive/thinking skills is out of balance.
This system is full of elitism. We literally are running out od plumbers and carpenters. We stopped appreciating craft with our hands, I do not think this healthy for a society.
I am gonna become a teacher to kids of age 4 to 6 and I really hope I can help them believe that it doesn't matter how cognitively smart you are. It does not determine your worth.
Thank you for reading
Pretty brave of you to take this on, man! Growing up here I never felt it was unfair, but that's likely because I never ran into many issues and my ambitions were always lower than my opportunities lol. When I was younger I might have said it's fine and maybe even good this way, but now that I'm a little older I can see it can be pretty messed up for some kids and getting into the wrong track can really set you back. It takes great determination to upgrade your school career path later on in life, which might be needlessly harsh really.
Dankjewel, Martijn! I gotta push the boundaries a little here and there ;) Nice to hear your perspective.
So, I am currently in my last year of secondary education, and I am in the higher general secondary education (havo) at the second highest level. There are made mistakes most politically. If you want a practical job you can do the lowest level and that's perfect for you but after they went to college we call them low educated that's from my perspective not fair these people obviously didn't had the hard theoretical exams but they did had practical exams which we don't have. Even students from higher levels often act like they are better than they are. So we really need them in society, but because we put them down, everyone wants to do the highest level possible. That makes we now have a lot of people missing in the practical jobs such as construction workers. Also, you make the test when you are 12 years old, based on intelligence and motivation. Your teacher gives you level advice. Your intelligence won't change that quickly, but your motivation will be while you get older. Switching to a higher level during secondary education is hard. You can only do that in the first year or after graduating. So I think the system works, but we need to make it more fairer.
My experience with the Dutch education system is mixed. I was a very bright little mind in primary school, and felt restricted in my education because I had to follow the lead of the class. In that perspective, splitting the students in 3 levels makes a lot of sense to me. However, the test results play too much of a role to determine which education is best suited for students. That bothers me most about our education system...
Whoo just been binge watching your vids and here you are with a new one! Goed bezig!
Ayyye! Awesome! Thanks :)
Yes it is an unfair system, many studies have shown this, I actually researched this problem for my havo 5 eindproject. It was really eye opening, I spoke with professors who specifically tackle this at the Radboud University, and attended their lecture on kansenongelijkheid in het onderwijs. We are currently in a transition phase where new methods and systems are implemented to reduce the inequality. It will take time. Idk if you will see it, but I mailed you my research so you can look at my findings
It is unfair in that it might make someone take a longer path to a "higher" education, but the system is still set up in such a way that someone with the right motivation can still end up in the right spot. As evidenced by the multiple classmates I had at the University doing their masters who started with MBO. One even did her PhD.
It is not easy to do this as the environment such as family and fellow kids most likely won't encourage you to follow a path like that, but I see that more as a fault in the social upbringing and marketing of the system than the system itself.
I'd love to see your research though, so if you have it somewhere online please let me know how to find it :-)
Wow, interesting to read you're studying on this! I've gotten your email, I'll get back to you soon :)
It's not the educational system itself that creates 'kansenongelijkheid'. It's almost entirely due to the resources students have outside of their school. No laptop, longer traveling times, living circumstances, parents barely speaking Dutch... Some steps can be made to 'even the odds', so to speak, but it's impossible difficult to solve 'causes outside of education' by 'changing the education system'. Instead, society itself needs to be made 'more fair', since the underlying problem is the unfairness in society as a whole.
I was a student who always wanted to do better but I was also one of the quiet and insecure ones, especially at age 10 or 11. My grades in primary school were really good, yet my teacher gave me a vmbo advice which is basically the lowest you can get. My parents and I disagreed and the reasoning for the advice basically came from my quietness in class. So when the cito test came and I scored a 547 (550 is the highest), my teacher suddenly agreed that I should go to havo or vwo. I ended up going to a havo/vwo 1st year of high school and from there I went to a vwo high school and now I'm studying computijg science at university. It has not been easy, but I have managed to get here and I will give my all to finish it. My point is that sometimes teachers will assess your abilities based on who you are or what you are like or what they think about you, instead of your learning ability or your grades. I'm lucky the cito test gave a good reason for them to change my advice because at a mavo school I wouldn't have fit in at all, the focus of the lessons there is not for me.
For me it was clear from a young age that I wanted to do something in IT, but a few times I have doubted my choices and wondered if maybe something biology related would've been better for me, but changing course is too difficult both because of the system and because of people's expectations.
Speaking about changing course. Changing levels is usually not as difficult as some people make it seem. Changing from mavo to havo takes 1 extra year compared to a normal havo timeline. Changing from havo to vwo also takes 1 extra year compared to a normal vwo timeline. Going down a level is always possible an doesn't take any more time.
After high school it's a bit different. I think you first have to finish an mbo study to go to a hbo one. And you first have to finish the 1st year of a hbo study to go to university. Going from uni to hbo or hbo to mvo is always easy I think.
Oh wow, I appreciate you sharing your story, Sam! It's good for me to learn from real experiences of people to see how the system worked for them. Sounds like you're having a good experience and that there was flexibility for you.
Im glad you were able to do havo/vwo after the cito. That ur shy shouldnt have anything to do with the advice the teacher gives.
@EXPLORING THE FOREIGN hii! Since you asked for it in the video I figured why not haha
I do think it worked out for me, but I realise it could've easily gone a different route.
Anyways, thank you for making these interesting videos and all the best to you!
Thank you for watching!! :)
@@samenjaimy Hi Sam so I’m a 14 years old from aboard who is now learning the ISK ( the language school for foreigners ) I have been learning now for 1 year and I had some exams for knowing my level. The teacher told me that HAVO is good for me which I’m going( HAVO 2) to this year after the summer holiday. I have been thinking about what to pursuit as a career and I think I wanna do IT although I have no much clue about it but it’s something I want. So since your doing IT or (done). Please give some advice on the best and fastest way and thank you so much for your time .
This is a very good video explaining our education system. I personally always felt like i had to make a choice too early. This lead up to me picking paths i eventually didn't end up persuing. Eventually I started doing more 'fun' things rather than school.
Once I reached the age of 19 I started learning myself to program in Java and discovered this was what i wanted to do, so i did.
At age of 21 i did the so called "21+ test" to be able to apply for a HBO education. Now i graduated and work as a software developer, the same field as my education.
I always was familiar with computers and technology, but never interested me in my early teens as something interesting enough to pursue. My interests and personality aren't even close to what they were back when i was a kid.
Thank you for the feedback on the video and for sharing your story! Glad you found a career that ended up lining up with your interest as an adult!
You mentioned exactly the strength of the Dutch system. In the USA, you'd be screwed. But with the Dutch system, you still had the option to enter University and not be 100k in debt ;)
honestly, i go to school from 8:45 until 15:30. I do Havo, and we get a lot of tests and assignments for grades. at some point, i forget my own mental health. not passing the year is dropping a group, adding two years to my study. I lose motivation and interest, and merely study to pass and no more. No free time. no motivation. parents don’t understand. bad grades, bad performance. Teachers ruining our day or maybe even week and family with one click on Magister :’)
Wow, I really enjoyed reading the comments. You Dutch people are soo intelligent 🧠. You all make valid arguments based on deep reasoning 👍. But here in Nigeria, the stress factor is a lil present in our education system too and sometimes we are a bit rushed because of the tight education schedule (if you attend a private school that is). And you are expected to know a little too much at a young age. Nonetheless, it makes us quite ahead of our counterparts when we study abroad. So in actual fact, there is gain in the pain.
Nice, Eva! :)
Nice to hear something from Nigeria, interresting
@@lillekenatnek195 😁. Are you a Nigerian?
@@evaalao1613 no I'm not but always interresting to hear from a whole diffrent country :)
Being Dutch and started with MAVO/HAVO advice. Finished MAVO and then switched to a MBO Hotel school to become a waiter (something I wanted back then). After Militairy Service I was struggling to get back into normal life for a while. Finally I got hired by IKEA where I got into logistics and I had the opportunity to learn how to drive on a forklift. I also got back to school MBO Logistics and made it up to lvl 2 with lvl 3 half done. Due to my own fault I got fired there and it was again some more years struggling getting a job. About 4 years ago I got the opportunity to get my truck (big-rig) driving license and since then I'm a truck-driver so I look out the window and earn my money with it. Something the basic school teacher always said that you can't earn money with that and look at me now :P
The CITO test is terrible. I scored very very low, ("He might not even make the lowest school system,") but later went to HAVO anyway. Why did I score so low? Because my interests weren't addressed, so it has little to do with level, and CITO is blind to that. It's a commercial institute, but somehow made holy. This is sick.
How did it work with you getting a different advice than what the CITO test showed? I'm curious how that worked out with you getting into HAVO. And what do you think is a better solution for people's interests not being addressed on the test?
@@exploringtheforeign I could take an hour explaining that, as I'm an educational innovator. But in short, I got an in between year (schakelklas) after which brugklas was kind of doubling a year, hence I got into HAVO. So that helped. Solution wise, and we have to be careful with that, I think that for many children (not all! differences in what works best can be big) some explorative subjects, where they choose what to focus on or play with should be more free. I personally would loved to have subjects like science history (while I suck a physics), arts, writing. Nowadays I think many need more theatre, read people skills classes or self development, especially since so many teens are depressed, or drop out. We see education too much as preparing for work, but we should prepare for life. And for the world we live in. For instance how is it possible that we train kids to seek out well paying jobs in corporations that destroy nature? How come kids that love animals and nature at 12, forgot about that at the end of high school? Lots of questions that are more out of the box need to be asked. Comparing two outdated systems on their own merits is not enough. :)
Hi Sam...I recently relocated to the Netherlands (been 8 days now) from South-Africa. A few months ago after making that big decision I stumbled upon your channel and I'm pretty sure I've not missed any of the videos you've released since. I must say the various tips you shared have helped me a great deal in settling in. I live in Almere and hope to bump into you some day. Keep up the good work and sorry due to luggage limit I was unable to bring more sun from South-Africa albeit Dutch people might not feel the need for it :)
Wow, thank you! I really appreciate the support on the videos and happy to hear that they've helped. Nice to have you here from South-Africa! Feel free to hit me up on Instagram or something and we can try linking up some day.
Last year I passed my HAVO exams and choose to do VWO (two extra years on secondary school). At primary school my teacher gave me HAVO advise, but I always fluctuated between HAVO and MAVO. Al my friends went to HBO, but many of them dropped out, because it was to easy or not what they’d expected🥱. I’m glad I’m still doing VWO, because I want to go to university. Plus, I get payed from DUO because I’m older than 18 at secondary school💶. Doing VWO also gives me more time to chose my bachelor, but I do regret not choosing business economics when I was 15. Going from HAVO to VWO, I also had to choose French again, which I hadn’t followed for 3 years🇫🇷.
Good for you! How's the French going?
As a non dutch(flemish person) I have my own toughts of this systems. The problem isn't the different levels it is the standardized test (CITO) to determine your placement and the advice your primary school gifs.
The cito can be influenced by privat tuiters, practicing... And the advice could be flowed because it is only a small moment you track and if the teacher doesn't have a high regard of you
My biggest problem was the system wanted you to be overall good in all the classes you follow. While I was pretty bad in languages so had to go from havo to mavo.
While on mavo I was bored out of my mind on the more math/technical classes.
And it's not like I needed any german or french for the HBO education I did in the end after having todo some pretty boring 4 years of MBO.
One important thing to add, maybe not clear to non-Dutchies: the CITO toets at age 11 is not something you study for. You practice in the way questions work etc, but it is meant to establish your skills in reasoning, language, math... It is meant to assess your level not in terms of knowledge but in terms of capabilities. Any levels of stress may come more from parents than from the kids themselves...
Wow… not gonna lie… I think I need to rewatch this.. maybe even save this.. because the school system is a bit confusing and I have so much to learn. Thanks for this man!
Thank you for watching, Sky! You definitely gotta learn for your kids haha.
It's actually even more complex than shown in this video.
Great video! I love that you are so involved in everything in the Netherlands. Keep going!
Ik ben het volledig met je eens. De achterliggende gedachte is leuk, en het in categorieën indelen van kinderen op basis van hun leervermogen heeft ook voordelen, maar er is gewoon niet genoeg mobiliteit tussen de niveaus. En ik zeg dit als iemand die van de middelbare school is geschopt en toen op 19-jarige leeftijd middels een toelatingsexamen alsnog op de universiteit is beland.
Interessant om jouw perspectief te horen, dankjewel voor dit delen.
I think they're being a bit dramatic in this video about the different levels of students, because nowadays when you're in primary school the teacher chooses which level you do and not the test anymore. And you also have a choice in that. And these days it's not looked at as smart and less smart, But as good at learning and better with your hands, so I think it's pretty good that they split it that way. You can also easily switch levels
It has always been one of my gripes that you get put in a box early. I like the premise, though, place students at a level they're comfortable with. It's just not fun if you have trouble keeping up or if you're not stimulated enough. However, there needs to be a way to switch paths easier than it is now. As you touched on, your ability to learn does not only depend on your intellect. Your environment has a _lot_ to do with it. I do have faith in our system, though. As when I went to the US after VWO, my levels were set equivalent to high school and two years of college. When our kid was born, I moved back to the The Netherlands just for the school system. Note that we went to live in a village on the outskirts of a town, so that the environment wouldn't work against my kid.
Interesting to hear! Thank you for sharing :) How did it work out for your kid if I may ask?
@@exploringtheforeign It worked out. She had a choice of University and HBO, and she choose the latter. She wanted to have a stake in the way we interact with technology, and she found a place where she does exactly that and where she's happy. I couldn't be happier about it. She never got in trouble as in the small village we lived, nothing really happened. The kids only helped each other out.
Dutch white guy here. The Cito test actually helped me. I was a class wallflower, and bullied at school. School was not a good lesrning environment for me. Lot of stress and fear and relating to other students. Teacher wanted me to go to Mavo/ Havo. On the test I could show that I comprehended more than teacher noticed. I scored VWO level. So my parents wanted me to go to Havo/ Vwo. Im very thankfull they did that, cause I could handle that level. After I did university now Im a psychologist/ therapist.
Cito is changing and other tests are being used more. To me the 360 view on the child (parents/ teacher/ test results/ kids whishes and dreams) is the most important. Dont take only 1 component and base everything of off that.
Choose a profile I think happens to early. But then again as teens our tenparement personality traits (the tendencies that we are borne with) let us gravitate more to a more technical, economic, cultural or healthcare profile. For me it meant not having to do economics anymore, which I found boring. On the other hand I could have benefitted from it, to have more knowledge of it. But at that time I really wasnt interested in learning it. Maybe make the choice in the last 1 or 2 years. Or let Mavo students choose when going to MBO, Havo on their last year and VWO on their last 2 years maybe?
If profile doesnt match the job outcome you later decided, you wanted to pursue. Then switching is possible. Sometimes you have to then take a course or a test to get up to pre admittemce standard.
All in all pur Dutch regulatory culture shines through. And I would love to see more loose education. But thats gonna require such a culture shift, tyat I dont think will happen in my lifetime.
In the beginning, yes it is quite unfair. But I know that a friend of mine started at the lowest level of mbo and is now a master in educational science and graduated at the top of her class. She's doing amazing now, because she just kept going and didn't give up.
its all right, but she is probably atleast 3 years older than the regular first year university students. That is what makes the difference, because someone like your friend has to study so much longer to accomplish the same thing.
@@kerimm.3712 Not really, because the lower education has a lot less years of study than the higher ones and the lower ones also finish highschool two years earlier.
Als Nederlander weet niet echt wat ik ervan moet vinden, maar je bracht wel een belangrijk punt aan het licht in het begin van de video: in de tienerjaren veranderen mensen ontzettend veel, en door ze in een hokje te duwen beperk je ontwikkeling van deze mensen... So, good point you raised there.
Dankjewel, James!
I'm currently studying for my HBO bachelor's degree of Social Work, and funnily enough my second semester revolved about inequality in our school system. There are clear signs that ones school achievements don't tie in to our actual intelligence. A lot of dutch children are overestimated. These kids have their own rooms at home meaning studying is easier for them. Also parents can usually afford homework guidance to improve their grades. A lot of dutch secondary school pupils were punching above their weight. On the other end, a lot of the foreign families had a lot of kids underperforming. Usually these kids tend to speak their parent's primary language, usually being Moroccan or Arabic, meaning their understanding of Dutch isnt as strong as native Dutch children's are. Also, a lot of these foreign families don't have the same type of money available to them to improve their kids' learning ability. Having to share a room, especially during Covid, meant a lot of the poorer families were quite impeded in their (school)work, simply because it was so much more difficult to concentrate with all the sound around you, or having to share a bad internet connection. This creates a motion unintended systematic discrimination, where the Dutch people stay richer because they are more well-educated, securing them well-paying jobs, whereas for Foreign people this meant a spiral of poverty. To get to the entire basis of it I can only recommend joining the study for yourself, but if you'd wanna learn more i highly suggest the program "klassen". It's on NPO start and it's free to watch! it might be region locked though, so if youre outside the NL I recommend a VPN. Its not only a good watch but also creates insights into the Dutch educational system (and the effects of it on children and adolescents).
As a current MBO student and past VMBO student I can say that there is way little recognition for us. VMBO/MBO has so many important jobs that we need to survive like baker, builder, gardener, farmer, kindergarden teachers and so many more jobs that require practical things instead of office jobs. Luckily the past few years there has been more recognition because of a school competition for VMBO/MBO schools/studies. Its called Skills Talents (VMBO) and Skills Heroes (MBO). Even the minister of education from the netherlands has worked with them and over the years they've gotten more money to be more recognizable. I have participated myself twice and it was so cool to see so many students enjoying they study that they choose and how much its needed in the real world.
lol, the dutch ruined my school carreer tbh.... My parents r divorced, one lives in Belgium the other in the Netherlands. I grew up in Belgium, but at a certain moment i moved to my mom in the NL. I was 12 and was put in "group 8" (last elementary year) somewhere in March. I was obviously the smartest of the class (I was already assessed having an IQ of 135 when i was 10yrs old), but since this was a little countryside town where nepotism rules, they just couldn't have it that i already knew multiple languages, aced every regular test and thus i was excluded from the test which is used for assessing your higher education levels. This ended with me going to MAVO like most of the guys from that class, which really sucked cuz i felt like what they got teached there was simpleton stuff that i already knew from my primary school education in Belgium. I got fed up being in the Netherlands, so moved back to Belgium, where i now was not assessed for secondary school, adn they based my education level on the study i was doing in the NL. This made me ending up in the "midpack" of education, Technical Schooling, and i got nothing but bad grades during the year (they deduct points if you don't behave well, i lost tons of points that way) and i made up my year during the exam-periods (without studying anything, it was free vacation every day for me) where i got like 90-95% overal grades for all courses. I quit school ASAP when i could, went to do partially schooling combined with work at age of 16, so at 18 I could leave the house and live by myself, without any degree... when i was 25 I found out i could still get a degree, so i went to that school for adults, and finally they did an actual assessment of my capabilities. I originally wanted to complete the 3 lost years from the technical education, but the told me i'd better do the sciences course (the highest that this "school" offered, ready for getting into uni). I completed 4 years of normal study in some 2 years, i finally was challenged and found the study material mostly very interesting. At age of 27 i could've entered University finally, but it would've cost me too much at that moment; my financial situation didn't allow for it so i never got the university degree. But at least i've got a very nice secondary degree that proves i'm no dumdum that can't complete school.
If the Dutch people in that countryside school just allowed me to take my test, i'd been probably graded with a nice result, although i only attended the dutch schooling system for like 4 months or so. I would've never gone to that MAVO school, but would immediately be going to VWO, just like the other "smart" guy in that class. Just purely because of jealousy and nepotism my whole school-carreer got tanked. I hated school, really really deeply. Until i finally got into that "finish your education"-system that finally took me and my capabilities for what they are instead of putting me in "the average"-group where i never belonged. I could also talk about elementary stuff that totally went wrong, but that would make this text even longer. Let's just say that my future was sabotaged from my early years. And that part is thanks to my parents...
As someone who got screwed over in his early teens by the Dutch education system, I fully agree with your opinion.
The idea sounds good, but there are a lot of cracks that students can fall into. And when that happens there is too much bureaucracy to overcome to set it right again.
Because of all of this I was done with havo at 20 instead of 17, because I had to come from VMBO first.
They need to set the first 3 years of high school as a continuation of elementary, all shared classes and in your 4th year you are sorted into the course of your level and interest.
Also, my highschool really looked down on their VMBO students, the HAVO and VWO students got the best trips and when we graduated the HAVO and VWO graduees got a bouguet of roses and a live band, and the VMBO class got no roses and no bouquet.
I was really happy at the end of primary school I could go to VWO. School was too boring for me. Most difficult part was that I didn't learn to learn. Only from VWO 4 did I found out that you really have to learn (had to redo a year). For me the overall experience was good. In the end I did decide to do hbo, because university was too theoretically for my liking. Only thing is that I now have more interest in the technical subjects than I had back then. Luckily I can do interesting technical things in my job now, but I'm never going to be an engineer (don't want to do another full bachelor or master degree).
I do have to say: the academically lower levels should not be regarded as something that is lower in life. It's not, not everything in life is about your academic level.
As a Dutchie, I’d say the system failed me. I was being bullied in primary school and since then, it caused me to not want to even attend or make an effort for it. I got labeled with ADD and they thought I could just skip a grade to prevent me from being in the same group again in middle school but since it was a small city/village, they all followed in the next year, as well as kids in the new school seeing I was an easy target. I attended VMBO but would hang out and feel a lot more at home at the school next door which was VWO. Because of the continued bullying, I again refused to be interested or perform and was at the bottom of the possible difficulty level (Basis). They medicated me to become zombie-like despite the fact I mentioned countless times I was being bullied and didn’t see the point of going to school with ‘those kids’. After middle school, I had to start nearly at the bottom of MBO which was Level 2, because this was in a different city I finally had a fresh start. I followed a tailoring and fashion course which invited all sorts of people that just wanted to be and express themselves, this helped me open up and become more confident in myself. After completing this course, I wanted to follow my true passion. My entire youth I had been gaming as an escape, the MBO offered a Level 4 course in game art which I immediately applied for, I passed that as well with flying colours (except for math as I still suck at that). Now I’m about to graduate with a bachelor in game design and have a grade average of 8 (with projects nearly always being a 10). What sucks about the system is the teachers aren’t being paid enough to deal with the shenanigans of the kids they have to teach, bullying is out of their grasp and can’t always be involved. I found my place finally after hitting 26 years of age but this can’t be said for everyone. The current system offers the right amount of challenge for those that need it, but it fails to adjust when it does not fit the student.
Dutch education system is fair , as every one can achieve any degree and education it wants , even switch carreer paths of education . If one is not yet completely ready to master HAVO. MAVO is a slighty lower path but achieves the same goal as degrees get you a shorter route in the next phase of your education . Same with the old LTS MTS schools . Mavo students could do the administrative schools then switch to Middle techinical school but had to do the full 4 years , LTS lower technical school students could do the short cut education of MTS as they already where educated in the basics of their schozen fields . and finish it in 18 months in stead of the full 4 years + internship . Doesnt matter what road you walk or what path you will end up with the degree you want to gain . slower or faster
Every one has the same chances . and well rounded educations .
Thank you for sharing, Marcus! I understand not everyone will agree with my view, so it's nice seeing the other perspective.
@@exploringtheforeign Best argument for dutch /german styles of education , Why are they so wealthy , and leaders in technology . medical equipment and research .
Good jobs
And now ask you why so many americans with college education are working minumum wage at fast food chains , and why the debt of america is so high they removed the commas and periods in the national debt clock as the amount doesnt fit .
American education is not something i would send a child to school to .
As a Dutch person I really agree that it's unfair. I was advised that I could partake in HAVO classes, however, since I had skipped a class in primary school due to being "smart" (their words, not mine), I got instead put in VMBO-D (the highest tier in VMBO, since there are multiple... also very confusing). Unfortunately due to me being a year younger than everyone, even in primary school, I was the target of a lot of bullying. Overall I've experienced a good 15 years of full on physical and verbal bullying.
This severely impacted my learning ability, and motivation for anything homework related.
Add to that that later in life I learnt I have ADHD and slight autism, and unfortunately the general education system just would've likely never worked for me. Which has impacted my ability to get the jobs I would've wanted for sure, as I grew from VMBO into MBO (College level, basically Bachelors from what I understand).
I think the system is too rigid. It only works for certain people and doesn't factor in anything external, such as learning disabilities, bullying, personal life situations (i moved about 10 times in my childhood so I didn't exactly have a stable school life in that sense either)
It's unfortunate but idk what system would work better, unfortunately there aren't enough teachers to give every kid a personalized way of teaching I feel.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Sorry to hear about the bullying that occurred, I hope that it's something that you've been able to heal from. I wish I was able to cover all of these nuances in the video; might have to do a part 2.
I loved how your dug into all aspects of this ... are you familiar with the lotto system for if you want to go to medical school? It can be quite sad if you lose out on the third draw and can't be a doctor .. doesn't seem fair. But, I would be the type who would want free education for everyone who wanted to learn .. no matter what their age. 🌹
Thank you, Linda! And nope, I did not hear about that. So I'll have to look into that.
@@exploringtheforeign To be honest with you Sam, I totally don't understand the Dutch school system simply because I didn't grow up in it so I don't really know how fair it is. The only real choices I had in 7th grade according to my school counselor (I'm 74 now) was between becoming a nurse, a teacher or a farmer's wife. Pfff
@@LindaCasey Dear Linda, For your generation it was the same in the Netherlands 🙏🏼 My mom walked an hour to her school, through the woods. She was the only child of 7 children that had the opportunity to study at the nuns Catholic boardingschool / convent to be a teacher. Some of her sisters did become farmer’s wives. Later my mom had to quit her job bc she was pregnant, it was not until years later that it became ‘normal’ to work as a mom instead of being a housewife.
A lot has changed since then. Now there are so many choices on each available level, some kids take a year off after graduating high school to research their options! 😅🫶🏼
@@exploringtheforeign Most HBO’s and Universities with far more applications than available spots have a lottery system, not just medical school. Some schools do not only have auditions but motivation& aptitude intakes as well as medical tests before admission. It’s the same in the US for military school, Dance Academies etc.
Professions with shortages like nurses and elementary school teachers have a 1 time college tuition deduction and a second tuition deduction for a Master’s degree. 🙏🏼🌺
I personally went to vwo and I fully support the Dutch system. If you stick everyone into the same class, the people who do learn faster can learn faster and the people who learn slower can learn slower. Everyone can learn at roughly their own pace at no one is held back significantly. There are a lot of ways to move through up or down through the system, so you are definitely not stuck.
For me personally the system has definitely benefited me, if everyone was in the same class, the pace would just be too slow for me. That is not just to blow my own trumpet, but that is the case for a lot of people I know. The profile system also does eliminate a lot of the useless stuff we have to learn.
What is determined by the class to which you are counted is hidden in education in the Netherlands. It largely determines the relationship between the teacher and the future student. Who is the education system geared toward? The choices you make early on are pre-prepared and tailored to who is likely to give the best answer.
I personally was pressured a bit to go into VWO when I was younger, with the "VWO is good, VMBO is bad" mentality very much present when I grew up. Ended up in 5 years of being told I wanted to do academic jobs, while I really did not. Switched secondary school 2 times before dropping out of the whole thing all together when I was 16, with both bad motivation and mental health problems at the root of it.
I only since about the age of 17 know that I really prefer working with my hands and actually doing stuff and spent some years trying to find my way, until I joined the military at the age of 20. I'm nearly 22 now, but really have found my place in life, but not thanks to the education system.
I agree completely with you Sam, young folk should get more time to actually learn what they even want in life.
As a Dutch person I would say that I agree that kids have to choose too early, for me personally, I choose my profile not based on what I liked about it at all, but just the people I would end up in a class with, so I wouldn't be in different classes from my friends. As a kid you just don't care about school no matter much your parents tell you it's a really important choice. With my CITO test I was assinged to MAVO, but after one year of that, I was moved up to HAVO, so it is possible to improve in the system, but it depends a lot on your teachers and your own willingless to put in some efford.
It also depends on the attitude. If one of my students would ask to be put in a havo class, I would pay more attention to that student and offer extra work to be up-to-date.
I'm a mathematics teacher and last year I did have some students of which I thought: Wouldn't (s)he be a havo type? If they never ask, then teachers won't pay attention unless the kid scores a straight 9/10 on every subject.
And really, I had two kids in 1 mavo last year of whom I thought: Maybe (s)he has havo potential.
I did the same thing as the girl you interviewed. I come from a working class family so they presumptuously gave me MAVO advice. I did 4 years of MAVO, then 3 years of MBO, then 4 years of HBO and, eventually, 2 years at a university to get my Master's degree.
I was way too young to be judged like that. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and I was super stressed out about the test.
On the one hand; it's good that the system allows you to keep stacking levels on top of each other (like I did). On the other hand; the simple fact that this possibility needs to exist is a clear indication that we're doing something wrong at the start.
But I don't claim to have any solutions. Like the professor said: more research is needed.
I was what in the US you'd call 'a straight A student'. I did an almost faultless CITO-toets (the test that determines what level of secondary school you will attend) when I was 11, was advised to attend VWO and did so as well, and because I liked almost all subjects and had no idea what I wanted to do in life, I chose a wide variety of subjects - as varied as the school limitations allowed. I studied something I liked and at age 55 am still working in the same field. For me the system worked fine, and I used to think that there wasn't much wrong with it.
Until I became a parent, and one of my children turned out to have an 'imbalanced intellence profile'. Already in primary school he excelled in language-related subjects and failed miserably in maths. His CITO-toets was far from straightforward: he would be able to take languages at VWO level, but wouldn't succeed in maths even at the lowest level. Because a choice had to be made, he was forced at age 12 to attend the lowest level of secondary school. He was bored to death there, became depressed and after a lot of struggles he finally dropped out without a diploma. The system didn't work from him, and ever since I am a strong supporter of a different type of secondary education - where all students follow the same subjects for at least 3 years, with the possibility of following each subject on the level that fits them.
4:53 there are a lot of commercial schools that will allow you to enter state exams so you can still become a doctor. Also if you do not know what your future holds for you, chose sciences. You can go to most economical, historical or humanity studies without having any of the subjects in your profile. For engineering or biology, the subject needs to be present in your profile.
This was really interesting, I've been here for nearly 12 years but I have never studied here (I'm old, lol). I have some younger colleagues who are also students, from what I understand from them, attending university here is insanely intense. One of them takes exams once per month 😢 I'm tired just imagining that...and don't forget, working is mandatory alongside study. It just seems ridiculous and not a great mental environment for learning. Would love to see more videos like this! Great stuff!
"Working is mandatory"??? Must have chosen a dual pathway then. For working is NOT mandatory at all, unless you choose the dual pathway of getting study points for your work in the right environment. Or if the costs of your living style don't compare well with your income. And if the exams are spread out well throughout the year, you don't have just a few months of true insanity at the end. But usually those go in a few clusters (not every month).
Guess you've been truly partially informed. Perhaps this one colleague is not the most truthful source :)
I personally do like the fact that there are levels, however I am a student who went straight to vwo so there wasn’t much struggle. In primary (especially in the last 1.5 year) I was quite bored cuz everything was easy to me. However when I did go to vwo this was a huge jump and I did have to get used to it. I’m happy that I have some sort of a challenge instead of having to do the same thing over and over when I already got it the first time. The only thing I don’t rlly like is how early you have to choose your subjects. I recently chose mine and I have absolutely no idea what I want to do in the future, therefore I’m not very confident in my choice. Luckily I don’t find sciences and maths all that hard so I can probably do any job I’d like if I’m able to pass. But I can imagine that for some who also don’t know what they want to do but wouldn’t be able to take on ALL sciences this would be a pretty tough choice.
Great video! You added a lot of nuance the discussion and included a variety of opinions. More like this pls!
Thank you, Paul! I'll try my best to bring more :)
I'm a 19 year old dutch mbo 4 student. Near the start of the video it's said that around 11 - 12 years old you get an advice level and it would determine the rest of your school career, but that's not exactly true. If you start secondary school but you consistantly perform high you can advance to a higher level without having to finish the entire lower level first, same goes the other way, if you underperform you can either re-do a year or be dropped to a lower level (which happened to me), After my 3rd year of havo I dropped to the 4th year of mavo.
I myself am from the Netherlands and still in the school system. And I say it is nog unfair, but just weird and hard if one step is made wrong. For example the CITO test you make on primary school. But also the fact that book study and labour work is so separated that you can't do both. It is a nice system if you know what you want, but if you're unsure like me at the moment. It is hard to get around and make the better choices.
Very informative and well done, Sam. Thank you for these insights into Dutch educational system and programs.
The main thing he got right was the complexity of the system, which makes certain rules seem more harsh than they actually are if you don't know the system in detail so you know what in the system compensates for it. For instance the advice is given at age 12-13, but the actual choice mostly happens at age 13-14 or 14-15, as often the first year or the first two years at middle school are the same for all students and only after that they need to decide which path (vmbo, havo or vwo) they want to follow. Hence it's possible to go with vmbo advice to a vmbo/havo/vwo school (especially with prolongued 'brugklas') and if getting good enough grades they will allow you to go to havor or vwo even though the original advice was vmbo.
Thank you, Arthur!
I might speak on this as a bit of an exception. But I dropped out of school in HAVO 4 and went to MBO 4 retail (which you can switch to when you finish HAVO 3). I then went on to do HBO fysiotherapie and am currently doing my masters in manual therapy.
The Dutch system actually leaves a lot of room to move up the ladder. But as the woman pointed out it just takes time which might be demotivating. And as the teacher pointed out many people may not realise the opportunities/options they actually have. I have noticed this when I was able to help my friends find new opportunities in their education with my experience with it.
I dropped out of school for the same problem you meantioned with the US system. Where I was having to learn all this stuff I wasn't interested in.
I agree with the guy about it not being a bad thing that people are grouped based on their abilities. But the CITO toets is one of the worst tests to examine someone's abilities. I feel like most people don't have a problem with being grouped, but with the test that keeps grouping people wrong. And i'm saying this as a gifted kid who got placed in VWO, so it's not out of spite. The test is just shit.
All with all a great video. Where I honestly saw all arguments and points come by that I have experienced myself while going through a big part of this system. This is a really well rounded and complete video to portray the Dutch system in an understandable way. Keep up the good work!
Ok, I’ll weigh in a little too. I am Dutch (educated there) and now live in North America (I am 71). In my day we were tested grade 5 for ability. My parents sent me to the HBS which at that time was the highest level. The first 3 years were a very general education. After the third year you either went to A stream (commercial, languages (4!) art, etc) or B stream (technical, i.e. engineering etc).
Most of us at that age knew which direction we wanted to go. In the sixties and seventies the Dutch education system was top notch. I can’t truly comment on how it is now - from what I gather from my siblings etc it has changed quite a bit.
I am currently in secondary school in the Netherlands and i also font really the weird system. Because all through out primary school my advice was mavo and suddenly in year eight they said i could do gymnasium (thats rven higher than vwo). Because apperently allthough out primary school i wasnt dumb i just had undiagnosed adhd, because of that i didnt get the help i needed in school amd my intelengence was not seen. But i enden up getting a gymnasium advice during lockdown because we didn't do the citi test. Fast forward year two secondary school i have to choose between havo amd vwo i choose havo because i had just moved two times and i was going thru some things. And that decided like the rest of my life. But i wanna go to university because i changed my mind (thats what teenagers do) so now i have to work my ass of so i can maybe switch to vwo next year.
I stumbled upon this video, and it was fascinating, particularly because I'm from Suriname, and we have a somewhat similar system (as a former Dutch colony), currently undergoing transformation for modernization.
Before COVID, Suriname had a streaming/transition system determined by proficiency in Dutch and mathematics. Scoring less than 5 meant a high chance of repeating the grade. In grade 8 (then called the sixth grade), there was an exam significantly shaping your future career. If you passed, the school you attended was decided based on your performance. You could pass for the highest direction, Mulo, or a technical or industrial LBO. Another option was ETO, considered the lowest form, supposedly for children with disabilities. However, all of this was determined by your proficiency in Dutch and mathematics. Most parents wanted their children to pass for Mulo, as it offered the most opportunities. LBO sometimes carried the societal notion that you weren't smart enough for Mulo, placing significant psychological pressure on the child to excel in the exam.
Once at Mulo, you had an "A" profile, economically oriented, and a "B" profile, scientifically oriented. In the second class of Mulo, you needed 12 points for the B profile, meaning a 6 in mathematics and a 6 in physics. It had to be above 6 but not 7 to 5. There was also a stigma attached; if you didn't choose the "B" profile, you were considered not smart enough. Additionally, with the A direction, you couldn't study medicine, for example. However, with the B direction, you could choose any job at the university after passing the Mulo exam and having the S profile in VWO. Lower profiles consisted of a language package and an economic package, with the language package offering fewer opportunities.
Havo in Suriname is considered the "dump" school from VWO. Failing twice means you can't handle VWO, and you have to go to Havo. Often, children from a lower socio-economic class attend Havo. Many parents prefer their child to attend VWO, preferably with an "S" package.
The MBO schools in Suriname include NATIN-MBO, the highest MBO school, and the largest. It is a natural technical MBO school and highly regarded in Suriname. SPI is a pedagogical school, and IMEAO is an economic, socio-economic MBO school. Although it is a good school, it is sometimes viewed as inferior because of the children who attend.
As you can see, the system in Suriname determines a lot for you, more so than in the Netherlands. It's crucial to consider that the education level in Suriname is higher than in the Netherlands. Sometimes, HBO books are used in MBO schools. Surinamese children often have to take more subjects than Dutch children. Another issue is that only 60% speak Dutch as their mother tongue. Hence, from elementary school, where Dutch is a primary subject, many drop out of the system because it's based on children who speak Dutch well.
Now the system is changing and becoming more like the Dutch system. Exams taken at age 11 are now at age 14. The books are gradually becoming more Surinamese because, in Suriname, books from the Netherlands are used for many subjects. Teachers now have to focus more on the talents of the child instead of emphasizing Dutch. Children no longer repeat grades but progress to the next one automatically. And on Mulo you now have extra profiles like arts and IT. However, the system now faces significant problems because the old system was based on dropouts from elementary school. Since every child now stays in school due to progression, there aren't enough schools in Suriname. There's a shortage of VWO schools. Teachers now have to work more for less pay, and there's also a scarcity of teaching resources due to financial difficulties, as Suriname is in a deep recession.
This video has shown me that the Dutch system doesn't differ much from the Surinamese one but offers more opportunities.
American woman lived here for 24 years bc I love it here for many things. I worked years in the Jeugdzorg system.
You are right the schooling is unfair and could even say racists, classist.
In America we do not have to have a degree or certificate study for years to be a cook, house cleaner, waitress and so on.
As we grow through school we are given classes that are above our age if we test higher in one category or another.
I was a math person, wanted nothing to do with languages.
I grew up when states was booming..a boomer. I was an accountant, an office manager, with no schooling.
I was tested and given 3 months with a living salary to Prove I could do it. After that had the job with a raise.
When computer came my work sent me to California to learn programming, again bc of testing and my drive to learn it.
Here you have to do years of schooling to change course. That is also not fair. it is like they want to delay everyone from working. Keep ppl in boxes.
I understand the problem with too many ppl wanting same kind of job and not available but this goes too far.
Also it traps ppl into schools that do not stimulate them.
Being in a school with all kinds of ppl is how the society is organised but not the schools. I find that strange.
I think its not unfair just depends on how hard you work. For me school is not everything
Another interesting video Sam, thanks! What made you do this subject?
I was surprised to hear how badly the cito toets experience was for many people. At my primary school they impressed upon us that it wasn't a test, you didn't have to study for it, it was just to figure out what type of learning your brain works best with. In Mavo you get lots of support and guidance, and in VWO you get a lot of freedom but also responsibility. And yes, clever kids tend to handle responsibility better.
They wanted to send me to do Havo, but since I was terrible with numbers (they didn't know about dyscalculia back then), wanted to go where I would be able to keep up with math lessons. So I did Mavo. After school I had some jobs, eventually turned working experience into a partial diploma. Got a better job, etc. Just finished doing a HBO homestudy. In my experience, it's not hard to work your way up, but yes, as that lady said, it takes time.
Honestly, the biggest issue I have with our educational system, is the starting times. Bloody hell, teenagers need to sleep 10h, how are they supposed to get that if they need to be in school at 8:15?!
Thanks, Judith! I was inspired by all of the stories I'd hear from friends and my gf about their experience with the system here. It just all sounded a bit.. strange to me haha. And thank you for sharing your experience!
I got a wrong advice and was miserable in middle school. When I was an adult I worked myself into university at age 26. It made me waste alot of my time and happiness. But I got to where I wanted to be by myself. 💪🏼
I was given MAVO advice, because back then I still had undiagnosed social anxiety and ptsd. My parents still pushed for me to do HAVO and I was actually one of the top students of my group, if not year. If Dutch schools aren't willing to proper look into any diagnosis for what a kid might have, there's no fair way of getting assessed for everyone. Same happened with my brother who got told to do MAVO because if dyslexia. He passed HAVO just fine.
*Seems* very practical and organized, planned. Which *seems* very Dutch. I'd be interested to see an examination of philosophical identity in the NL. For example: how un/popular or universal are concepts like pragmatism and utilitarianism. I find these sorts of collective efficiencies often come at the cost of concepts like individualism or even humanism, while somewhat paradoxically attempting to improve those things. Cool video!
I did HAVO and HBO, but deep in my heart I always wanted to work with my hands.. I’m a programmer now, but luckily I like what I do. Working with my hands became my hobby now
Awesome to hear! Thank you for sharing :)
There are a lot of people saying they 'had to choose subjects way to early' as they 'ended up following a different path'. The thing is: you can still follow different path. Literally the only effect of choosing your profile is the following:
- If you drop maths or choose easier maths, this rules out beta studies. (Obv, you could later on always follow the subject seperately, outside of high school.)
- If you drop physics, chemics, and biology, this rules out specific studies related to these subjects, including medical school.
Any other subjects aren't necessary for studies. You will follow subjects that you won't need in your career, and that would've happened if you'd had to choose later to.
As a Dutch teen who is currently in vwo I find it kind of strange that when you’re in vwo people kind of expect or assume that you’re going very well payed and theoretical job like work as an attorney or doctor maybe in an office or a lab but (if I take myself as an example) my biggest dream is to be an actress and 90% of my class want to work with their hands. I do find it good that they have different levels like more of a challenge for vwo and that they explain a little more on vmbo but just because I might be a little more intelligent doesn’t mean I’m good at learning from a book (which I’m not) and the other way around
Moet even zeggen dat je super goed doet!!! Veel journalisten kunnen van jouw leren. Je komt heel erg open over en je gaat op onderzoek uit. Je maakt op het einde een goede samenvatting. Ga zo door🥰
Heel erg bedankt voor deze reactie! Super leuk om te horen!
As a Dutch 17-year-old I'm actually glad we got split into the three groups when we were 11/12. I had my group of friends in primary, but aside from that primary school was kinda boring for me and there were people in my class there who I didn't really like. Part of that comes from lack of shared interests and also being intelligent (as in book smart) can be regarded as weird and could result in getting picked on.
So I was happy to be put in an environment where being book smart wasn't weird or looked down upon, and where people generally had a bit more of shared interests. An environment where knowledge and intelligence are valued and eventually even respected.
This place for me was the Gymnasium, one version of what you could call VWO+, Just VWO with something extra. In the case of Gymnasium that extra thing is Latin or Greek or both.
Although I've had a positive experience I recognize that this is certainly not the case for everyone. Being book smart means that the education system has treated me well, so my opinion on the system may be biased. Therefore I can only speak for myself in saying that I'm glad the system is how it is for the most part. Not to say that it's perfect, I've had my moments where I loathed it, but it's pretty good.
Btw je spreekt echt goed nederlands, een tip(is moeilijk trouwens, dit doen nederlanders vaak op gevoel) verwijswoorden zoals die, dit, dat, iedereen snapt het wel maar het viel me gewoon op :)
For some reason you always upload exactly as I open RUclips lmao. Anyway, politics in this day and age is a very sensitive topic so I was a little wary going in but you put out a very fair and good video (the disclaimer really helps). You laid out the facts about the education system in the beginning and listened to other people's opinion before coming to your own conclusions. Interesting and relevant topic too! Keep it up man.
I just have perfect timing! haha
And thank you for this feedback! I know it could be playing with fire discussing these kind of topics, but I tried my best to do it in a respectful way.
As a 37 y.o., being part of the introduction year MAVO changed to VMBO, I would say the Dutch system is too focused to pigeonhole kids into a track. My parents were against this mandatory testing when I was 11/12, and with a couple other kids, I never did that test. The test only gives data of that one moment, where a kid is experiencing high stress because 'their future depends on it'. Meanwhile, my parents just told the teacher to use their judgement as they been teaching me for two years. I was a 'kid' at that age, I had other interest than studying. So my parents opted for me to do VMBO instead of the advice of HAVO. My journey starts as a car mechanic and ends with a bachelor degree in communication and multimedia design. The only reason I went for my bachelor is because I had a coach while doing my MBO4 vocational training (facility management) that told me about the possibilities. That informed me I could break free of the track I was put on. I'm still thankful to this day I met that woman. There is even a part of me that wants to get a master degree, but the time required is off-putting - as mentioned by the lady in the video. I've already been in secondary/tertiary education for 9 years. At a certain point you want to just live your life and move on to the next stage with your partner. It takes so much time (and money) to get out of that box people placed you in when you were a kid - especially if you don't know what you want to be when you're all grown-up. So, I would say we're not informing kids/parents enough about the kind of vocations/jobs available - they only focused on lawyer, football player or construction in my years - and we're testing people way too early.