There's something heartwarming about Glenn's smile when he listens to Coleman. This might be presumptuous of me; but I think it's just a sense of proud security. I think that's the look of satisfaction that there is a young gentleman nearly 50 years younger than him will be more than up to the task of carrying the torch. Thank you both, gentlemen.
@@alexandernelson2452 Okay I'll bite, its been 4 months since I watched this, but I have seen many many videos with Glenn, and he absolutely is smug, and he 100% does use word salads( 5 minute monologs that don't actually say much, but are designed to confuse with big words and the thousand different directions they go). How is holding that view pessimistic?
@@gibbjonathan22 Within the specific context of this video he didn't seam smug to me. also, it's just a facial expression- it can be interpreted many ways. Regardless of all that- i liked the video
@@Rallzy So you have no idea what you're talking about? Not exactly what you're saying but the fact that statements like these show up on these videos in significant numbers has me skeptical.
@@Dash277 Having divergent view points does not make one irrational. There are great thinkers that hold disparate viewpoints...worthy of debate. Thus, when one says that black advancement isn't due primarily to institutional racism...but rather issues with culture...I can agree that blacks are too great and have had greater disadvantages and done better. However, when the other side says that blacks that are college graduates are just as likely to get a call back as a white with a felony that is a valid point. Additionally, if someone says that police forces are being infiltrated by white supremacists. That is a systemic goal and a valid observation.
@Captain 7 Weird, I thought the sentence "Find yourself someone that looks at you the way that X looks at Y" was only applied to romantic partners. Live and learn.
@James Gray you can call him phony (presumably a jab at the latino portion of his ethnicity), but he makes the same arguments as those who no one would regard as phony (Lowry. Sowell, etc.) If you have an issue with Hughes' talking points then debate them, instead of stroking your ego with racist name calling against a respectable and esteemed young man.
I could listen to Glen all day. He has a way with the English langiage. I wish I had that skill. His students at Brown better apreciate that they are sitting at the feet of greatness.
Knowing the kind of university Brown is, I doubt it very much. The students will definitely be running off to their 'safe spaces' after his blistering attack on identity politics at 58:16
@@hejla4524 Hej, hey. His take on identity politics is problematic, as the country and its political parties have always engaged in it. Indeed Anglo-Saxons, Germans, Swedes, Irish and Italians of American descent have had their time in the sun with it...lol. In the 2016 Presidential Election WHITE AMERICANS gave a plurality of their votes to Donald Trump regardless sex (M/F), class and education, for instance, the only racial class to do so. They INVENTED IDENTITY POLITICS...history doesn't lie. When Native Black Americans engage in it all hell breaks loose. I would hope there comes a time when we all can be considered REAL AMERICANS -- with all the rights, duties and privileges pertaining thereto. But for the country not facing up to its past, we aren't there yet. And here we are.
@@kevinboone2178 I think you're wrong, white voters who voted for Obama did not switch their vote to Trump because of race. Nut jobs aside, there is little color consciousness among whites. Not so in the black community.
I get in the back of a cab of a Nigerian or Kenyan immigrant- new citizen, and he his listening to international-national news and can wax philosophical on any topic in the current political- economic zeitgeist. Catch an African, native born American and most often it's Rap-Hip-Hop and an almost willfull effort to avoid any substantial subject of discourse. It's culture baby, and certain people are committed to not letting it change for African Americans, both white and black.
Maybe in our emphasis on equality, we have allowed standards to sink to the lowest common denominator instead of lifting everyone up. Unintended consequences do happen.
@@BhutanBluePoppy Yes sir, it really is tragic. It has been an ongoing cultural collapse that effects everyone from every background. America has become a cultural graveyard. (Father forgive us, for we know not we do)!
@@thomassimmons1950 I actually believe we in the USA have a tremendously rich & vibrant, living culture. OTOH, Hollywood, & especially Madison Avenue, have taken the place of the Bible and classic wisdom of the ages. In fact, African-American culture has enriched us lushly - in the past. Presently, we get boohoo nobody likes us, anger & resentment & gimme gimme gimme. Also, a lot of admiring the worst of Hollywood & Madison Avenue). This culture is not the same one that gave us Thomas Dorsey, Duke Wellington, etc etc etc.
@@BhutanBluePoppy I agree, but there has been a well financed, organized and aggressive attack on what is (and not without barely veiled patronization) often referred to as "OLD SCHOOL" Frankly this has grown beyond the natural attraction to the new and simple aesthetics. This is a multiple front war that has been waged on economic, political and cultural levels...sound paranoid? Perhaps, yet look around and see if something isn't "ROTTEN IN DENMARK"
It is a pure, unadulterated tragedy that this video is getting so few views. Two amazing minds are discussing one of the most important topics of our time that faces America and no one is watching it. That is disgusting. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Coleman Hughes gives me hope for the future. Someone hire a bodyguard team for that young man.
I agree whole heartedly. When I post these conversations on FB, I get maybe one or two likes. But if I post some nonsense like dancing monkeys, I get 100+ likes. This speaks volume to the ignorance prevalent in our society and why people are so easily brainwashed.
I'm with you guys. Almost a year later and we're just at 1K? I, too, share on Facebook, hoping to increase he intelligence quota. Fat lot of good it does, but this will be going on my board, regardless. I'll be listening to it twice, at minimum.
@@go2therock Both guys are brilliant. And I don't agree with everything they say. Here's my take. Regardless averages and class, race is important when discussing many life outcomes for Native Black Americans/NBAs, Ivy Leaguers included. Physical and mental health, job and housing discrimination, income and net worth, incarceration rates and interactions with law enforcement, for example, have disparate impacts when compared to White Americans. And stop comparing NBAs to "people of color/POC." THOSE PEOPLE have never experienced the sum of the historical and ongoing disregard we have, which has rendered us the country's permanent lower caste. Furthermore with the exception of Asian and LatinX families, for instance, who have been here for generations, their immigrant counterparts come here to make money and provide better futures for their families. And like their Irish, Italian and Jewish compatriots from the past, they'll morph into a "favored" status or "Whiteness." Aligning themselves somehow to NBAs is a ticket to nowhere...and they see as much. I'd hope one day Glenn and Coleman could too. The NBA LINEAGE is singularly important because the country has always enforced the distinction between "us" and "them," between the enslaved, and their descendants, and Real Americans. And here we are talking about "Black American Culture" and "class," both of which are suspect because the country's past is prologue, and you can't parse it without getting burned. The remedy has to take into consideration the illegality and immorality of 400 years of state-sanctioned racial debasement and purposeful underdevelopment, which requires a specific kind of justice, one constructed to remedy what has gone on in the country's name, one requiring REPARATIONS and policy changes to make whole NBAs. This would not be novel/unheard of, as 20 groups have received reparations over the course of American History. With due respect.
@@kevinboone2178 what do you mean by native black American? someone who is both Native American and black, or someone who is a descendant of slaves, rather than an immigrant?
Its refreshing to see black intellectuals of different generations discuss the status of Black Americans without embracing the popular "victim mentality" narrative so often touted by the others. Finally, it seems we are getting somewhere.
I think it’s important to meet somewhere in the middle I don’t like the victim mentality either but I don’t like when people discount 400 years of history and say the past has nothing to do with the present. Personal responsibility is very important and I never want to guarantee equal outcomes but we do not all start from the same place and history has a bearing on what position we grew up in. Again I’m just giving a counterpoint to your narrative because we are so polarized that everybody just looks at their own point of you and throws nuance out the window
@@arunsalwan8558 I'm very happy to have this conversation and I agree that history matters. Okay, may I have your honest opinion on what do you think the current state of the whole continent of Africa would be if Europeans had never invaded Africa. The only Africans in North America are the ones who chose to immigrate. What do you imagine the state of Black Africa would be?
Coleman & Glenn - I salute you gentlemen as Titans of Intellectual Honesty and Integrity. Double salute for Coleman for his Congressional Testimony. I know you may remove Comments due to trolling but I wanted you gentlemen to know what people that consume your ideas think of you.
Everyone should watch this video. Both of these men truly understand the situation, engage in phenomenally honest, succinct yet comprehensive analysis, and every single one of us can learn from their example - not only from their clarity of thought and eloquence, but their devotion to intellectual integrity. God bless them both.
I highly respect you Dr. Loury and thoroughly enjoy your discussions with various guests. What a delightfully smart, decent and thoughtful young man Coleman Hughes is, and what a pleasure to listen to someone who does not fit the contemporary 'woke' image of a student.
I really enjoyed this Socratic dialogue. Reminds me of philosophy classes I've taken. I also, liked that Glenn seemed charitable to his opponents' views. He seems like he's teaching Coleman Hughes, helping him to sharpen his arguments and prepare for counter arguments.
Coleman is a great speaker. Hope his clarity and nuanced analyses are with us for a long time. If he's this good at such a young age, think of the insights he'll be cranking when he's older
Predictably fantastic discussion. My one request is that the next time you have Coleman on the show, you figure out a way to get John involved as well.
I realize that the example of my family is anecdotal, but I have seen the same pattern over and over again. I and my six siblings were born into poverty, yet we somehow managed to climb out of that situation and we each now enjoy very decent standard of living. There was no secret to what we did. Working hard with a goal in mind was the start. Yes, there are some poor people in my extended family and it is easy to see how their situation was caused or amplified by poor choices or lack of native ability (not entirely, but largely).
Coleman, you really show your value and excellent mind. Glenn you are priceless. I know how old you are (my age) and I am retired. Selfishly, and hypocritically, I hope you keep going. we need you.
And friends. My husband worked with an older gentleman within our church to try to help him to live within his means. He was continually (going on his word) lending money to others, beyond his personal finances and on to those that the church had given him. This is problematic, I say, not unsympathetically - but realistically.
@@go2therock There's a good book by a Jewish Psychologist (Shapiro...I think) called the "hidden cost of being African American." They show that "reverse inheritances" are a big among Black Americans.
I am thrilled Coleman brought up the lead issue. It matters for all of us, right now, but especially people who live in certain rural and urban areas; what is in our drinking water and what is in our air? With the addition of biological environmental factors we have a third prong to be attentive to.
I agree nearly completely with all you guys say. In fact, I would take it even further. We need to abandon the whole idea of 'race'. I still hold onto Haile Selassie's vision that the world we are trying to get to is the one where "the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes." The only way to get there is to live our lives as if it's already true. The real split between people is not the left-right political split that we are fed by the mass culture, but the split between those who would divide us, and those who would unite us. The demagogues of both the left and right survive by keeping us divided. Anyway, thanks... a great discussion.
I liked this interview. Having said that let's keep investigating why group differences in outcomes exist. For racial groups I believe a lot of it is cultural. If so then let's work on the culture.
Fascinating! Saved for later reference. Coleman's argument begins at 3:50. Historically, slavery is not a driver of wealth 4:50. Wealth is created 5:45. Red lining and government favoritism did not play much of a role in the wealth gap 6:10. Coleman: culture is a main factor 28:20. Loury at 44:43 relationship between politics and narratives constructed in the academy. Whether structures are at fault or behaviors is a political question. 49:20 "black people are pawns in that game."
Enjoyed the discussion. I live in metro Detroit. When I purchased my home several years ago. The tax difference for my city and Detroit was $784 more per month to live in Detroit. In conversations about the wealth gap. What is left out are the high tax areas blacks live in. High taxes depress property values and steal wealth. Glen enjoyed your using a counter argument to sharpen Coleman. I am a Walter E Williams and Thomas Sowell student. I appreciate the main conclusion even though all the moving parts are seen different. Yes Coleman progress has been made. I fall on the side of agency. If we as blacks are sum of our historical maltreatment in this country. Then we are reduced to wards of the state. Not individuals who can make decision at any moment that will change our outcomes.
Ouch, thats a big tax difference. Usually an increased tax burden like that would indicate a higher level of services. Is that true vs your old town, or is it mainly due to the state that detroit finds itself in after the fall of its industries?
Jeff Alberda most big cities are ran by Democrats who believe in high taxes. The real estate taxes in Detroit are 2.5 times higher than my town. Plus Detroit has a 2.5 percent income tax. Around 1990 Walter Williams pointed out the cities that had displaced Detroit and Cleveland in population for example had lower tax burdens. Cook county had a failed soda tax. Democrats have taxed urban America to death. As people moved they raised taxes. Only 2 cities in the top ten in population in 1950 have more people today NY and LA. Rarely is the high tax part quantified.
I'm dialing back in time watching this in 2020, but I see that the good company that Dr. LOURY keeps now was with him a few years back, too. I'm a student here, whenever I listen, donning my robe, because Dr. Loury exercises reason the way reason is to be meted in a discussion with such complex variables and so many pitchfork carrying lefties invested. Glen, if I can be familiar, is our William F Buckley, not our as conservative, but our as national treasure.
That last statement from Coleman amused me because he is often compared to Sam Harris, and that statement was essentially "we already all lack belief in almost every god dreamt up in human history, I'm just asking that we cease believing in one more".
The real puzzle piece missing is how do we get those “out there” to listen to those in here with as much enthusiasm as a new hip-hop artist album drop.🧐 bravo gentlemen!
Same thing I’ve been thinking. The information from Our black pendants of the left is super clear and concise to someone who’s had some formal education. But what about those of Us who get lost in this sort of lexicon? I think if They spoke in laymen’s term it would connect. They should also wear adidas track suits and baseball caps for ascetic appeal.😅
49:13 "This is really a battle about politics. The narrative complements the political agendas of fundamentally opposed forces and black people, in this case, are pawns in that game." - Glenn Loury This is one of highlights for me. Homo sapiens is an animal fueled by narrative. The stories we tell ourselves about identity, justice, and morality dictate our individual decisions and how we interact in society. For me it all boils down to, what is the Truth? Do we even care?
I agree with your world views and feel strongly that as we continue to view ourselves as victims the problems in our community will continue to persist. I also believe that those who continue to push this victimization narrative are fully aware of the consequences and do so purposely with a specific agenda.
maybe some white people are aware of it. but I find progressives to be pretty genuine...but misguided. it's a shame that narrative is so destructive to the ppl it portends to want to help.
What is this victim view? Yes it’s true black people are victims of racism/white supremacy and this victimization started in slavery and continues today.
The last comments by both speakers were very inspirational. As controversial as the professor says they are, those ideas would be right at home with Enlightenment thinkers.
I don't think I've seen this before, what a find. Nice to see Coleman Cruz, as Glenn correctly refers to him, talking with Glenn very early on in their relationship, perhaps the first ever meeting between the two. Of course, shortly after this appearance, Coleman changed his last name to Hughes, which was meant to be a critique on how readily folks today change their identities.
My feeling from this interview, is we have academics putting forward ideas about reasons wealth disparity exists, then Coleman saying... “Nah, doesn’t feel right to me”... that’s cool. It is interesting to reflect on how different lower socio economic groups might use conspicuous consumption, but those observations still need an explanation as to why the group of disenfranchised in the first place. Why exactly is Coleman’s hunches being elevated to this degree?
Exactly. I agree with Hughes on many issues but it seems that the slightest push back on his article revealed he lacks a mechanism for his low confidence in the data, he just adopted a philosophy that makes his gut instinct the opposite of what's presented. The same way no one can blame everything on structural racism, you cannot blame everything on black individuals and our culture (which actually is pretty diverse). I also don't see how Hughes' take on this issue translates to policy. Essentially he is suggesting black culture have an upheaval of sorts but what would need to happen for this to occur exactly? I'm writing an article on this video right now.
He gives many well thought out reasons for the existence of wealth disparities, primary among which is the fact that disparities are the norm across all sorts of groups and even within groups, so that to even spend time on specific disparities in specific cases is counter intuitive. He makes this point several times. If all you get from Mr. Hughes is “doesn’t feel right to me”, then you aren’t listening to him objectively. His primary concern is reason, not “feelings.” I offer this as one potential reason why some value his work as much as they do. He comes off as racially unbiased, which is what the world needs right now, ie less racial bias. ✌️
47:09 - 49:26 needs to be shared far and wide and understood by as many people as possible. It's a wonderful explanation of conservative vs progressive narratives and how they impact people's interpretations of reality, especially as it pertains to the current economic status of Black people in the USA. Which is more accurate?
What I love about Coleman is that he assumes NOTHING and questions EVERYTHING. He reasons using logic and facts, not instinct and feeling. If we ALL had his thought process, we would have much less animosity towards each other.
Glenn - these are incredible conversations with high levels of detail. Can we possibly get links at least to the abstracts of some of the studies being discussed here?
It is so refreshing to see good, civil, intelligent, informative, and unbiased discussion. Stimulating! Keep up the good work and don't let the turkeys get you down.
the internet can play a big role in stopping those in a position like glenn described, the low-income, dropout, resident of westside chicago, from committing crimes and being in a small circle of people who consider criminality a ration lifestyle.
@@Ultra_Light_Beam Glenn Loury applied for a position within the Reagan administration and is a born-again Christian. I doubt he considers himself left of center.
@@BuceGar But the Reagan administration was several decades ago, and Loury's explicit descriptions of himself as "less of a Christian than (he) used to be" and, in point of fact, being left of center are very recent (in the course of discussions with John McWhorter and Mark Kleiman respectively). On top of that, he has formally endorsed Democratic candidates in (at least) the last four election cycles.
I love the willingness to consider that what helps one poor person likely helps them all without reference to their background, culture, ethnicity, or other dividing factors.
Incredible discussion!!! It is so rare now to have people study data and let the data guide their opinions rather than opinions guide the data they choose to share (usually with a biased interpretation). Hats off gentleman! Wish you had a bigger following. Pundits on the right and left can learn from your critical analysis of data.
I have huge respect for both of these men and follow the work of each closely. I know that GL has a gazillion times more experience than CH and that there is much that he can teach the younger man (as evidenced in this session), but when you invite a guest on your talk show and spend more time talking than the interviewee, something is wrong.
The young man said how the music and sports industries were something that blacks were able to excel in. But you have to remember that those two industries made America richer. Blacks spend all of their money right here in the U.S. They dont have any relatives to send money overseas to. We spend it all here. Look at Black hair care. Its made the Koreans rich. Blacks have three major industries that should have put them over the top. Sports, Music and Hair Care. We should have been able to help our people with just those three. Instead some other groups profits from that money.
Appreciate the discussion, but the continuous drawing of parallels between chattel slavery and wage labor, between slavery/Jim Crow and discrimination against Asians who voluntarily immigrated is disingenuous at best. Both groups endured discrimination. But the type, duration and level of discrimination are completely different.
What a great discussion guys. I really enjoyed the point about spending patterns, especially the explanatory factors behind such patterns, that Professor Loury made. Why do black people value such things that have no long term wealth and prevent them from accumulating wealth? The point about comparing whites from the north and south (which could be separate cultures though the participants here didn't mention that) and their spending patterns was also equally interesting. Trying to unify all of that with some common feature of being human is even more interesting. I'm looking forward to digging in!
This young man is very interesting to me. It's refreshing to see young people major in things which do not necessarily have a "high income" connected to them. My children are in college now. At first I encouraged them to pursue STEM fields. Only one is doing this. The others are doing political science and fine arts. If they are able to find creative ways to pay for their education, I think college students should pursue their passions in higher academia.
Good conversation. My problem with Colman's view that slavery has too much influence on the discussion of reparations/wealth gap is justified. He doesn't emphasize just how active racial supremacists and allied/sympathetic groups have been in the U.S since slavery. Their ideology has manifested primarily since the slave era in a variety of malicious or deleterious ways. It's an active legacy, one which has heirs on both sides of the argument and has a heavy influence on the racial wealth gap. There's obviously room for nuance but that's the gist of my concerns.
Unfortunately, these gentlemen have little solutions to the problem. One has to admit the solution may be very difficult. Particularly in light of the fact that what has plagued the black community has spilled into the white community and its deadly impact is shown in the present opioid crises that are decimating lower-middle-class white communities. The solution may be some kind of moral or spiritual revival outside of sectarian religion. We must understand that this issue transcends racial disparities and other social maladies, and intersects into the philosophical realm dealing with a worldwide overindulgence in materialism and is connected to universal moral inequalities in the human mind and spirit. We always leave that out of these conversations and surround them only around materialistic aspirations, and we barely approach the moral, spiritual and psychological condition of the human being.
The solution for the opioid crisis is rather obvious imo, considering there's countries with a far better model than yours. I've never had this specific discussion but if you wanna have a go, I'm game.
Part of their premise is, if I interpret them correctly, that the wage gap need not in and of itself be seen as a problem that needs a solution (viz-a-vis Coleman's final claim that it is simply one more gap that he wishes you to not lose sleep over). Likewise they both claim, if I interpret them correctly, that one solution to the problem (if the phenomenon is accepted as one) would be to seek some sort of color-blind universal uplift of the poorest or least well-off in society (whoever they may be).
zak: It happens at the level of individual and family.. Both Mr Lowry & Mr Hughes are living examples. I agree that every group & country benefits from not letting their spiritual components wither away.
Everyone always talks about the economic impact of redlining. But no one ever mentions the social impact of housing covenants. If difference in culture is the root cause of racial disparities, then look no further than housing covenants. People who grow up in the same neighborhood, tend to share the same culture. Black families weren’t allowed to move into White neighborhoods back when “America was great”. That made way for the rise of Black culture.
Relative poverty is the operative variable in all the most violent cities and neighborhoods all over the world. When the dude down the block has a lot, and others have little, a crazy competitive hierarchy is established and it results in violence. Status and power based on displays of material wealth in poor areas inevitably equals a decrease in the value of human life, and an increase in illegal activity. Folks arent flashing their degrees or report cards in the hood.
That is true in highly unequal societies (like ours) as well.The United States of America is in serious trouble. The industrial working class whose livelihood was decimated after the manufacturing industry was relocated to SE Asia never recovered and is languishing in the ruins of the industrial heartland, the American middle class that was once the envy of the world is shrinking and competition for the remaining jobs is fierce. Wages for the majority are stagnant and not keeping up with inflation. The opportunities that baby boomers had are utopian by today's standards and many of the things that generation took for granted simply do not exist any more. But one demographic has been doing very well. The wealth captured by the top 0.10% of the population has skyrocketed. Three guys (Bezos, Gates and Buffet) are wealthier than the bottom 30-50% of the population and on top of that they and their super rich cohorts pay next to no taxes. Income inequality, by any measure, is off the chart. The fact is, you can't have a healthy and prosperous society ruled by a class of obscenely rich billionaires. Capitalism is a zero sum game and the more money that is transferred to, and hoarded by, the top income earners, the less is available for everyone else. This is a fact. A society with super rich, has super poor. It is extremely ironic that when it comes to actually existing capitalism (as opposed to economics 101 _theory_) the "evidence based" crowd is just as irrational and in denial as SJWs are about gender and race. A society that rewards ruthless ambition, sociopathic greed and imbues the market with divine qualities that mere mortal humans must not interfere with (unless, of course, it involves gifting proud "capitalist wealth creators" with billions of tax payer dollars when their scams backfire and tank the economy, and regular corporate welfare payments to "save jobs" that usually get cut anyway) can't be anything but dysfunctional. It entrenches a poverty stricken underclass and breeds fear and desperation that gets expressed as anger and violence and self-destructive behavior. The opioid crisis is a classic example that shows how fucked up America really is. Purdue Pharma handed out Oxycontin pills like they were M&Ms, deliberately misleading doctors and patients alike. The number of pills they gave out is insane. Look it up. What happened? Thousands of people became addicted to a potent opiate and countless lives were, and still are being, destroyed. Purdue paid an $800 million fine and its victims were left to pound sand. The company's owners, the esteemed Sackler family, is doing just fine, thank you. This is just one example of institutionalized exploitation, there are many many more. Here is the thing with humans in groups. We form dominance hierarchies in which status is unequally distributed. That in itself is not necessarily a problem - there has never been, and there will never be, a society in which everybody is equal in status and power. However, for a society to remain civil and reasonably free of repression it needs to maintain a balanced dominance hierarchy. A bus driver, say, is obviously not as socially powerful or materially wealthy as, say, the CEO of a successful software company. But there has to be a respected place in that society for bus drivers and CEOs alike. Humans have a built in status radar and are keenly aware of their place in the social hierarchy. Someone living in Appalachia who is repeatedly told by the media and prominent leaders that he belongs to a "basket of deplorables" whose members oppress other groups in society just by breathing knows exactly where he stands. So does an Oxycontin addict who is left to suffer alone while Purdue gets a slap on the wrist or someone who works hard and does all the right things but remains poor and and an illness or lay off away from destitution. Sure, no society can please all the people all of the time, but when blatant exploitation and discrimination creates large numbers of pissed off people who know the system that in theory is supposed to work for everyone is rigged against them and their only choice is submitting to the "bully", and losing their self-respect and the feeling that they are in control of their lives, or mounting a resistance against the powers that are keeping them down...you've got a society with a big problem that will only get worse until the system is changed at a fundamental level or the untouchables/deplorables are forcibly kept in their place by repressive legislation or a police state that further limits their ability to express their grievances and function as full member of society. The crowd for whom "quit whining and pull yourself up by the bootstraps, son, this is a meritocracy for crying out loud" is the only solution to serious societal dysfunction are as out of touch with reality as the SJWs. They don't understand that a capitalism of all winners is impossible without a state that keeps elite power in check, they don't understand how dominance hierarchies function (SJWs also have trouble with this one) and many of them really do seem to believe in propaganda like "American exceptionalism" which is really embarrassing for a group that is supposed to be learned and wise. They are people for whom the status quo works quite well and their project is basically a defense of said status quo that conveniently deletes inconvenient facts that challenge their smug world view and some of their basic assumptions about economic reality.
Precisely. No war but class was. But at the same time, one can’t deny there is an entrenched culture of anti-intellectualism and nihilism in poor Blacks. Plus considering the fact they lack any means of cultural and social capital, they often relish in this delusion that material wealth precedes intellectual wealth arguably because they lack any cultural insight outside of the monolith the hood creates. And I think I should stress this is central to blacks in the hood. A black kid growing up in the suburbs will not value “‘makin money” more than a college degree; a black kid in the suburbs will have an awareness of cultures outside of his own ; his parents will take him to museums, put him programs- fulfill his potential. What I find epidemic to the hood is a singular notion of success driven by absurd notions of extreme wealth and a pathetic dog eat god mentality which reduces all social dynamics to that of predator vs. prey. This dynamic plus the omnipresent anti intellectual culture lends itself to generational poverty and socioeconomic immobility as they cannot adapt to life or perspective outside of their ignorant bubbles. Woke blacks who are often upper middle class will always fail to acknowledge this as they themselves have no actual experience growing up in lumpenized/ working class black neighborhoods.
55:50 "Outcome is a function of peoples effort..." effort cannot be assumed equal because of culture. Look at Asian culture and the emphasis on effort.
It's a few things and people that's missing from this conversation...... 1)the law of cause and effect 2) nature and the function of power 3) Dr. Claude Anderson, Dr. Joy de' gru and Dr. Michelle Alexander. I don't have letters behind my name and I will gladly debate him.
I do appreciate rational discussions but I think we lose nuance. Why can’t both things be true. That personal responsibility and family culture have a lot to do with how successful you are today in 2022 but at the same time the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow laws against black citizens of our country has greatly affected and created this culture that we all disparage. Period I tend to agree that in spite of these barriers you could still be successful but the social cost and horror of the past does affect the present.
The point about sexual selection pressures and social status on young black men is a strong one. It seems it would also apply to young black women who are competing for the most desirable males. I've also been contemplating this angle since I heard the statistic about African American spending on luxury goods.
I guess the natural follow-up question is why females are selecting for financial incompetence? Gucci logos in particular are probably one of the most prominent signals of low status.
@@lesliemcclinton7844 I don't think it's exclusively a "black" thing. I certainly don't see the same trend in immigrant African or Carribean communities or in middle-class African American communities where I live in NY/NJ. On the other hand, it is a visible trend in communities where culture is less centered on family, community, and education - and more on survival, immediate gratification, avoidance thru substance abuse & sexual status signaling. Status symbols (fashion & lifestyle brands) are established through strong signals from marketing & pop culture. These are aspirational status symbols for most people and are counterbalanced by foundational family/community signals. But for people who don't have strong local family/community signals and who can't envision their own future - they are going to (incorrectly) feel that spending on these symbols is useful. All of this is driven by evolutionary survival & social reproductive pressures. It would make perfect sense for someone in this situation to spend recklessly - especially if that person doesn't spend enough time thinking about and planning their own future. It's tragic - and not exclusive to black or white. It's a problem best solved thru personal responsibility, strong engaged family, education & supportive community.
One think we need to be more careful to distinguish between "cause" and "blame." In a sense, "blame" is like "cause" with the addition of a moral judgement and even an evaluation of worth. That clouds the issue. Events typically have long chains of causation with many earlier influences joining together to create later influences. There is no initial cause where one must begin. And even if one could identify an original cause, often by this late date there is nothing that can be done about it. Culture evolves by communities to adapt to their long-term circumstances. What is stereotyped as "black culture" (thoughts and behaviors which are more common among African Americans than among other groups) is an adaptation to African Americans' historical circumstances. For many generations of black people, improving one's mind was worse than wasted effort. Not only was one forbidden to benefit from it -- bettering oneself (getting "uppity") attracted violent hostility. Saving money and investing in durable property attracted crime that the Justice system seemed indifferent to protecting. The only sure way to benefit from good fortune was by rapidly consuming its goods before strangers had time to take notice, get jealous, and plan their crime. Optimizing for the long term is a luxury only for those who feel they will it is even possible to benefit from that. OK, so given their history, African Americans cannot be _blamed_ for being like that. But we cannot change the history that is the cause of this culture, nor will handing over reparations change it. Given that the culture developed over two centuries, I suppose that two centuries from now with the racist discrimination removed, things might become quite different. But if we don't wish to wait that long then artificial means must be used to accelerate modification of the culture to make it better adapted to today's circumstances. In some ways the argument over culture is analogous to the argument over "good English" and "bad English." Grammatical English is not inherently better, but having been made the standard, "good English" is more _effective_ -- because with standard English you can communicate well with a wider variety and number of other English speakers. Changing the culture to be better adapted to today's circumstances is not something white people can do for black people without the enthusiastic cooperation of black cultural leaders. It's a difficult and painful task, but it is largely up to African Americans whether to undertake the project.
56 minutes in... Why assume there are no genetic differences between the races when it comes to various measures of performance? There are certainly easily measurable differences in genetics that predispose performance in other areas such as predisposition to various diseases, testosterone level, blood oxygen level, fast versus slow twitch muscle fiber, skull shape, etc.
As a white man that went through the system for 3 years, 1 total year being incarcerated, for petty crimes and has a friend who was shot many times by a police officer when I was a teen, I appreciate this kind of deracializing things so much. It's human problems more then anything, like you guys discussed there is similar but different issues that are in either base cultures. I am a HUGE advocate to police reform because I have personal problems with some of it(of course I wasn't 100% innocent but the criminal justice system is blind in its unfairness) but I have time and again been told my voice is irrelevant in social issues pertaining to injustice of the system because I'm white, even by my own family. Through the 3 years, though I definitely live in a less black populace(northwest), I saw the injustice unfold on people... and it is clear as day that the poor suffer this more then anyone(and who else is most likely to act out through stress alone). Anyways mostly just saying all this because the discussion is greatly appreciated and it's very nice to see people trying to actively look at the hard to look at problems as objectively/honestly as possible.
I enjoyed reading your 3+years old comment...& I just noticed your pretend name is "crackcrock", which is interesting. I hope you're doing well & in a place in life where you're making good decisions.
I wonder if Roland Fryer's article "An Empirical Analysis of Acting White" is relevant to Coleman's point about intangible cultural factors (e.g., attitudes towards education)....
Glad to hear the nod to Thomas Sowell. Great discourse, at times I think correlation vs causation were conflated. I understand the focus was on racial disparity in America... but the limited scope of this perspective is akin to assessing the climate of the earth by simply studying the past million years on a planet that is 4.5 billion years old. The false assertion that forced labor and the benefits it yields are unique to Black Americans asserts that we can learn nothing from 12,000 years of slavery, with an estimate 40 million people in bondage in 2019.
You left out an important issue. The presence of the soul and is there a creator. This is the difference now between the Jews, past slaves and African Americans, past slaves. I believe that the black race is one of the most incredible races. In the past their faith oozed out from their souls. The music that lifted all people. This I believe was god given. They were examples of grace, dignity, fortitude, integrity, faith, and backbone. I could go on and on. The government and woke and cancel cultures are evidence of this, “no soul”.
Yeah, 'cause throwing money at a problem always fixes it. Best reparations would be to give 3 generations free education. Then it's on them from that point on. I guarantee that would have a longer lasting impact than a payout.
@@Aiphiae Obviously, structural racism in the USA is a multi-faceted problem that has existed and has been spreading since the very beginning of this nation, but the reality that Black Americans have been systematically denied the same opportunities as their white peers has clearly led to a vast imbalance of wealth. So yes, monetary reparations MUST be a part of any serious set of solutions meant to address systemic racial bias. This isn't complicated.
@@dlg5485 "This isn't complicated." Riiiiiight, which is why nobody can seem to agree on whether or not reparations are a good idea, and if they are, how much should be given and who should get it. Gotcha.
@@Aiphiae It isn't complicated for me or anyone I know. The fact that some white people (and a few self-hating Black folks) are against reparations doesn't matter a whit to me. You should take a look back through history and review how often thru time everyone in society has gotten behind doing the RIGHT thing without a fight. I couldn't care less how many people disagree, I'll keep fighting for complete and total racial equality and justice for as long as I'm alive.
@@dlg5485 Ah yes. There it is. "A few self-hating Black folks." There's the backwards racism I knew was lurking under the surface. Why must they hate themselves if they don't see things YOUR way? Maybe they think handing money to people isn't a good long term solution. I can think of a number of concrete examples illustrating why that's a completely reasonable (and accurate) position to take. Do you not think a group of people could generate more long term wealth and power in society through the education of multiple generations rather than giving a lump sum to one generation? You're talking to me like I must be a bad person because I'm not getting behind "doing the right thing" when the truth is, I want the same equality you do, I just think reparations are a terrible way to go about achieving it.
![A Critical Look at the 1619 Project | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8hWQmzgiKXQ/mqdefault.jpg)
There's something heartwarming about Glenn's smile when he listens to Coleman. This might be presumptuous of me; but I think it's just a sense of proud security. I think that's the look of satisfaction that there is a young gentleman nearly 50 years younger than him will be more than up to the task of carrying the torch. Thank you both, gentlemen.
I think he is smug, and thinking about the word salad he is about to throw at him.
@@gibbjonathan22 lol that's such a pessimistic way to view it, it actually made me laugh
@@alexandernelson2452 👌
@@alexandernelson2452 Okay I'll bite, its been 4 months since I watched this, but I have seen many many videos with Glenn, and he absolutely is smug, and he 100% does use word salads( 5 minute monologs that don't actually say much, but are designed to confuse with big words and the thousand different directions they go). How is holding that view pessimistic?
@@gibbjonathan22 Within the specific context of this video he didn't seam smug to me. also, it's just a facial expression- it can be interpreted many ways. Regardless of all that- i liked the video
It is so beautiful to watch two human beings have a truly intellectual discussion.
You both are among a very small handful of people I look to for a rational discussion on these kinds of topics.
@@Rallzy So you have no idea what you're talking about? Not exactly what you're saying but the fact that statements like these show up on these videos in significant numbers has me skeptical.
@@Dash277 Having divergent view points does not make one irrational. There are great thinkers that hold disparate viewpoints...worthy of debate. Thus, when one says that black advancement isn't due primarily to institutional racism...but rather issues with culture...I can agree that blacks are too great and have had greater disadvantages and done better. However, when the other side says that blacks that are college graduates are just as likely to get a call back as a white with a felony that is a valid point. Additionally, if someone says that police forces are being infiltrated by white supremacists. That is a systemic goal and a valid observation.
Find yourself someone that looks at you the way that Glenn Loury looks at Coleman Hughes.
...if you're looking for a grandfather. Otherwise, that's nasty.
@Captain 7 Weird, I thought the sentence "Find yourself someone that looks at you the way that X looks at Y" was only applied to romantic partners. Live and learn.
@James Gray Wooo, somebody got triggered. Poor guy. Suggest you go outside, listen to the birds.
@James Gray Who is Cruz and what does that have to do with this conversation?
@James Gray you can call him phony (presumably a jab at the latino portion of his ethnicity), but he makes the same arguments as those who no one would regard as phony (Lowry. Sowell, etc.) If you have an issue with Hughes' talking points then debate them, instead of stroking your ego with racist name calling against a respectable and esteemed young man.
I could listen to Glen all day. He has a way with the English langiage. I wish I had that skill. His students at Brown better apreciate that they are sitting at the feet of greatness.
I was just thinking the same thing.
Knowing the kind of university Brown is, I doubt it very much. The students will definitely be running off to their 'safe spaces' after his blistering attack on identity politics at 58:16
@@hejla4524 Hej, hey. His take on identity politics is problematic, as the country and its political parties have always engaged in it. Indeed Anglo-Saxons, Germans, Swedes, Irish and Italians of American descent have had their time in the sun with it...lol. In the 2016 Presidential Election WHITE AMERICANS gave a plurality of their votes to Donald Trump regardless sex (M/F), class and education, for instance, the only racial class to do so. They INVENTED IDENTITY POLITICS...history doesn't lie. When Native Black Americans engage in it all hell breaks loose. I would hope there comes a time when we all can be considered REAL AMERICANS -- with all the rights, duties and privileges pertaining thereto. But for the country not facing up to its past, we aren't there yet. And here we are.
@@kevinboone2178 I think you're wrong, white voters who voted for Obama did not switch their vote to Trump because of race. Nut jobs aside, there is little color consciousness among whites. Not so in the black community.
I get in the back of a cab of a Nigerian or Kenyan immigrant- new citizen, and he his listening to international-national news and can wax philosophical on any topic in the current political- economic zeitgeist. Catch an African, native born American and most often it's Rap-Hip-Hop and an almost willfull effort to avoid any substantial subject of discourse. It's culture baby, and certain people are committed to not letting it change for African Americans, both white and black.
Maybe in our emphasis on equality, we have allowed standards to sink to the lowest common denominator instead of lifting everyone up. Unintended consequences do happen.
@@BhutanBluePoppy Yes sir, it really is tragic. It has been an ongoing cultural collapse that effects everyone from every background. America has become a cultural graveyard.
(Father forgive us, for we know not we do)!
@@thomassimmons1950 I actually believe we in the USA have a tremendously rich & vibrant, living culture. OTOH, Hollywood, & especially Madison Avenue, have taken the place of the Bible and classic wisdom of the ages. In fact, African-American culture has enriched us lushly - in the past.
Presently, we get boohoo nobody likes us, anger & resentment & gimme gimme gimme. Also, a lot of admiring the worst of Hollywood & Madison Avenue). This culture is not the same one that gave us Thomas Dorsey, Duke Wellington, etc etc etc.
@@BhutanBluePoppy I agree, but there has been a well financed, organized and aggressive attack on what is (and not without barely veiled patronization) often referred to as "OLD SCHOOL" Frankly this has grown beyond the natural attraction to the new and simple aesthetics. This is a multiple front war that has been waged on economic, political and cultural levels...sound paranoid? Perhaps, yet look around and see if something isn't "ROTTEN IN DENMARK"
Self selected real migrants who do all the paperwork are always going to be smarter than a “boat migrant”.
It is a pure, unadulterated tragedy that this video is getting so few views. Two amazing minds are discussing one of the most important topics of our time that faces America and no one is watching it. That is disgusting.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Coleman Hughes gives me hope for the future. Someone hire a bodyguard team for that young man.
I agree whole heartedly. When I post these conversations on FB, I get maybe one or two likes. But if I post some nonsense like dancing monkeys, I get 100+ likes. This speaks volume to the ignorance prevalent in our society and why people are so easily brainwashed.
I'm with you guys. Almost a year later and we're just at 1K? I, too, share on Facebook, hoping to increase he intelligence quota. Fat lot of good it does, but this will be going on my board, regardless. I'll be listening to it twice, at minimum.
@@go2therock Both guys are brilliant. And I don't agree with everything they say. Here's my take. Regardless averages and class, race is important when discussing many life outcomes for Native Black Americans/NBAs, Ivy Leaguers included. Physical and mental health, job and housing discrimination, income and net worth, incarceration rates and interactions with law enforcement, for example, have disparate impacts when compared to White Americans. And stop comparing NBAs to "people of color/POC." THOSE PEOPLE have never experienced the sum of the historical and ongoing disregard we have, which has rendered us the country's permanent lower caste. Furthermore with the exception of Asian and LatinX families, for instance, who have been here for generations, their immigrant counterparts come here to make money and provide better futures for their families. And like their Irish, Italian and Jewish compatriots from the past, they'll morph into a "favored" status or "Whiteness." Aligning themselves somehow to NBAs is a ticket to nowhere...and they see as much. I'd hope one day Glenn and Coleman could too. The NBA LINEAGE is singularly important because the country has always enforced the distinction between "us" and "them," between the enslaved, and their descendants, and Real Americans. And here we are talking about "Black American Culture" and "class," both of which are suspect because the country's past is prologue, and you can't parse it without getting burned. The remedy has to take into consideration the illegality and immorality of 400 years of state-sanctioned racial debasement and purposeful underdevelopment, which requires a specific kind of justice, one constructed to remedy what has gone on in the country's name, one requiring REPARATIONS and policy changes to make whole NBAs. This would not be novel/unheard of, as 20 groups have received reparations over the course of American History. With due respect.
@@kevinboone2178 what do you mean by native black American? someone who is both Native American and black, or someone who is a descendant of slaves, rather than an immigrant?
Its refreshing to see black intellectuals of different generations discuss the status of Black Americans without embracing the popular "victim mentality" narrative so often touted by the others. Finally, it seems we are getting somewhere.
Shut up
I think it’s important to meet somewhere in the middle I don’t like the victim mentality either but I don’t like when people discount 400 years of history and say the past has nothing to do with the present. Personal responsibility is very important and I never want to guarantee equal outcomes but we do not all start from the same place and history has a bearing on what position we grew up in. Again I’m just giving a counterpoint to your narrative because we are so polarized that everybody just looks at their own point of you and throws nuance out the window
@@arunsalwan8558 I'm very happy to have this conversation and I agree that history matters. Okay, may I have your honest opinion on what do you think the current state of the whole continent of Africa would be if Europeans had never invaded Africa. The only Africans in North America are the ones who chose to immigrate. What do you imagine the state of Black Africa would be?
Coleman & Glenn - I salute you gentlemen as Titans of Intellectual Honesty and Integrity. Double salute for Coleman for his Congressional Testimony. I know you may remove Comments due to trolling but I wanted you gentlemen to know what people that consume your ideas think of you.
Everyone should watch this video. Both of these men truly understand the situation, engage in phenomenally honest, succinct yet comprehensive analysis, and every single one of us can learn from their example - not only from their clarity of thought and eloquence, but their devotion to intellectual integrity. God bless them both.
No push back here gentlemen :) All I saw was too highly intelligent and thoughtful men having a very needed conversation. Keep it up!
I highly respect you Dr. Loury and thoroughly enjoy your discussions with various guests. What a delightfully smart, decent and thoughtful young man Coleman Hughes is, and what a pleasure to listen to someone who does not fit the contemporary 'woke' image of a student.
Awesomely awesome awesomeness. So happy to see Coleman make an appearance. Glenn, John and Coleman should do a regular show together.
Here, here!
I have great respect for such people. And I admire their dedication to truth, harmony, wisdom and justice.
I really enjoyed this Socratic dialogue. Reminds me of philosophy classes I've taken. I also, liked that Glenn seemed charitable to his opponents' views. He seems like he's teaching Coleman Hughes, helping him to sharpen his arguments and prepare for counter arguments.
Coleman is a great speaker. Hope his clarity and nuanced analyses are with us for a long time. If he's this good at such a young age, think of the insights he'll be cranking when he's older
This is so satisfying on so many levels Mr.Glenn looks at Coleman like a proud father or Uncle of some sorts. This is what the black community needs.
I love the way these two men listen to each other. Wow. We can learn.
Glenn - good critique of Coleman’s argument at the beginning - comparing poor countries to rich countries and how slavery affects wealth.
Predictably fantastic discussion. My one request is that the next time you have Coleman on the show, you figure out a way to get John involved as well.
From a white boy from Canada. Hats off to these fellas. Definitely opening my mind. Much respect and thank you for the dialog.
Where in Canada?
it is always refreshing to listen to a civil, honest, and rational discussion on the internet.
I realize that the example of my family is anecdotal, but I have seen the same pattern over and over again. I and my six siblings were born into poverty, yet we somehow managed to climb out of that situation and we each now enjoy very decent standard of living. There was no secret to what we did. Working hard with a goal in mind was the start. Yes, there are some poor people in my extended family and it is easy to see how their situation was caused or amplified by poor choices or lack of native ability (not entirely, but largely).
Coleman, you really show your value and excellent mind. Glenn you are priceless. I know how old you are (my age) and I am retired. Selfishly, and hypocritically, I hope you keep going. we need you.
This was such a brilliant discussion. Really makes you think. Thank you so much
Wow this rich intellectual discussion is so beautiful.
One aspect of Black culture and wealth that has been documented is that successful Black people are expected to and do support other relatives.
And friends. My husband worked with an older gentleman within our church to try to help him to live within his means. He was continually (going on his word) lending money to others, beyond his personal finances and on to those that the church had given him. This is problematic, I say, not unsympathetically - but realistically.
@@go2therock There's a good book by a Jewish Psychologist (Shapiro...I think) called the "hidden cost of being African American." They show that "reverse inheritances" are a big among Black Americans.
Glenn Loury is a philosopher. One of the most exquisit thinkers i've heard. SO glad i found his work.
I am thrilled Coleman brought up the lead issue. It matters for all of us, right now, but especially people who live in certain rural and urban areas; what is in our drinking water and what is in our air? With the addition of biological environmental factors we have a third prong to be attentive to.
I agree nearly completely with all you guys say. In fact, I would take it even further. We need to abandon the whole idea of 'race'. I still hold onto Haile Selassie's vision that the world we are trying to get to is the one where "the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes." The only way to get there is to live our lives as if it's already true. The real split between people is not the left-right political split that we are fed by the mass culture, but the split between those who would divide us, and those who would unite us. The demagogues of both the left and right survive by keeping us divided.
Anyway, thanks... a great discussion.
The best interview of Coleman Hughes I have seen.
I love the respectful pushing the professor gives the brilliant student. It makes me miss the (occasional) moments I had like that in college.
I liked this interview. Having said that let's keep investigating why group differences in outcomes exist. For racial groups I believe a lot of it is cultural. If so then let's work on the culture.
I’m not so quick to go there as this would ignore how various populations influence each other and how culture is reactive to underlying conditions.
Fascinating! Saved for later reference.
Coleman's argument begins at 3:50. Historically, slavery is not a driver of wealth 4:50. Wealth is created 5:45. Red lining and government favoritism did not play much of a role in the wealth gap 6:10. Coleman: culture is a main factor 28:20.
Loury at 44:43 relationship between politics and narratives constructed in the academy. Whether structures are at fault or behaviors is a political question. 49:20 "black people are pawns in that game."
Enjoyed the discussion. I live in metro Detroit. When I purchased my home several years ago. The tax difference for my city and Detroit was $784 more per month to live in Detroit. In conversations about the wealth gap. What is left out are the high tax areas blacks live in. High taxes depress property values and steal wealth. Glen enjoyed your using a counter argument to sharpen Coleman.
I am a Walter E Williams and Thomas Sowell student. I appreciate the main conclusion even though all the moving parts are seen different. Yes Coleman progress has been made. I fall on the side of agency. If we as blacks are sum of our historical maltreatment in this country. Then we are reduced to wards of the state. Not individuals who can make decision at any moment that will change our outcomes.
Ouch, thats a big tax difference. Usually an increased tax burden like that would indicate a higher level of services. Is that true vs your old town, or is it mainly due to the state that detroit finds itself in after the fall of its industries?
Jeff Alberda most big cities are ran by Democrats who believe in high taxes. The real estate taxes in Detroit are 2.5 times higher than my town. Plus Detroit has a 2.5 percent income tax. Around 1990 Walter Williams pointed out the cities that had displaced Detroit and Cleveland in population for example had lower tax burdens. Cook county had a failed soda tax. Democrats have taxed urban America to death. As people moved they raised taxes. Only 2 cities in the top ten in population in 1950 have more people today NY and LA. Rarely is the high tax part quantified.
Not pushback from me Coleman. I try to not push back on clear articulation of rational thoughts. Glenn - you are the man.
Pushback, especially as carefully crafted as Loury's, is to help clarify a position. It's like hormetic stress - consistent fine tuning.
Very insightful conversation! Learned a lot. Much respects to you both
Very thought provoking and refreshing. Keep this dialogue going forward.
Both of you are great men and are leading the charge out of the mess we are in - I cheer you on.
I'm dialing back in time watching this in 2020, but I see that the good company that Dr. LOURY keeps now was with him a few years back, too. I'm a student here, whenever I listen, donning my robe, because Dr. Loury exercises reason the way reason is to be meted in a discussion with such complex variables and so many pitchfork carrying lefties invested. Glen, if I can be familiar, is our William F Buckley, not our as conservative, but our as national treasure.
That last statement from Coleman amused me because he is often compared to Sam Harris, and that statement was essentially "we already all lack belief in almost every god dreamt up in human history, I'm just asking that we cease believing in one more".
Glenn Loury is a remarkable thinker. These conversations are priceless.
@spot light Typical. Back to Coates I guess, it's hopeless.
The real puzzle piece missing is how do we get those “out there” to listen to those in here with as much enthusiasm as a new hip-hop artist album drop.🧐 bravo gentlemen!
Same thing I’ve been thinking. The information from Our black pendants of the left is super clear and concise to someone who’s had some formal education. But what about those of Us who get lost in this sort of lexicon? I think if They spoke in laymen’s term it would connect. They should also wear adidas track suits and baseball caps for ascetic appeal.😅
Correction “Black pundits on the right”
49:13 "This is really a battle about politics. The narrative complements the political agendas of fundamentally opposed forces and black people, in this case, are pawns in that game." - Glenn Loury
This is one of highlights for me. Homo sapiens is an animal fueled by narrative. The stories we tell ourselves about identity, justice, and morality dictate our individual decisions and how we interact in society. For me it all boils down to, what is the Truth? Do we even care?
I agree with your world views and feel strongly that as we continue to view ourselves as victims the problems in our community will continue to persist. I also believe that those who continue to push this victimization narrative are fully aware of the consequences and do so purposely with a specific agenda.
maybe some white people are aware of it. but I find progressives to be pretty genuine...but misguided. it's a shame that narrative is so destructive to the ppl it portends to want to help.
What is this victim view? Yes it’s true black people are victims of racism/white supremacy and this victimization started in slavery and continues today.
The last comments by both speakers were very inspirational. As controversial as the professor says they are, those ideas would be right at home with Enlightenment thinkers.
I don't think I've seen this before, what a find. Nice to see Coleman Cruz, as Glenn correctly refers to him, talking with Glenn very early on in their relationship, perhaps the first ever meeting between the two. Of course, shortly after this appearance, Coleman changed his last name to Hughes, which was meant to be a critique on how readily folks today change their identities.
When your smart but find out.... Damn, my dad really does have a good point. 🤔
These discussions are great, but I definitely need a cup of coffee and a couple of hours to take in everything covered.
This conversation blew my mind. Multiple times.
My feeling from this interview, is we have academics putting forward ideas about reasons wealth disparity exists, then Coleman saying... “Nah, doesn’t feel right to me”... that’s cool. It is interesting to reflect on how different lower socio economic groups might use conspicuous consumption, but those observations still need an explanation as to why the group of disenfranchised in the first place. Why exactly is Coleman’s hunches being elevated to this degree?
Exactly. I agree with Hughes on many issues but it seems that the slightest push back on his article revealed he lacks a mechanism for his low confidence in the data, he just adopted a philosophy that makes his gut instinct the opposite of what's presented. The same way no one can blame everything on structural racism, you cannot blame everything on black individuals and our culture (which actually is pretty diverse). I also don't see how Hughes' take on this issue translates to policy. Essentially he is suggesting black culture have an upheaval of sorts but what would need to happen for this to occur exactly? I'm writing an article on this video right now.
He gives many well thought out reasons for the existence of wealth disparities, primary among which is the fact that disparities are the norm across all sorts of groups and even within groups, so that to even spend time on specific disparities in specific cases is counter intuitive. He makes this point several times. If all you get from Mr. Hughes is “doesn’t feel right to me”, then you aren’t listening to him objectively. His primary concern is reason, not “feelings.” I offer this as one potential reason why some value his work as much as they do. He comes off as racially unbiased, which is what the world needs right now, ie less racial bias. ✌️
Alien Agenda - yea.. so either you were not listening or you didn’t understand.. either way your criticisms miss their mark entirely
Philosophy major, I knew I loved him for a reason. 😍
47:09 - 49:26 needs to be shared far and wide and understood by as many people as possible. It's a wonderful explanation of conservative vs progressive narratives and how they impact people's interpretations of reality, especially as it pertains to the current economic status of Black people in the USA. Which is more accurate?
What I love about Coleman is that he assumes NOTHING and questions EVERYTHING. He reasons using logic and facts, not instinct and feeling. If we ALL had his thought process, we would have much less animosity towards each other.
Brilliant discussion. I wish these two gentlemen were more widely known.
Glenn - these are incredible conversations with high levels of detail. Can we possibly get links at least to the abstracts of some of the studies being discussed here?
Fantastic thought provoking conversation
It is so refreshing to see good, civil, intelligent, informative, and unbiased discussion. Stimulating! Keep up the good work and don't let the turkeys get you down.
the internet can play a big role in stopping those in a position like glenn described, the low-income, dropout, resident of westside chicago, from committing crimes and being in a small circle of people who consider criminality a ration lifestyle.
This was a great conversation! Really enjoyed it 👍
I think Coleman nailed it. It's very hard for those on the left to accept that culture is a HUGE contributor to race issues.
Very happy to watch this. It was an honor.
YES! Two of my favorite conservatives in an intelligent discussion.
Haha, I don’t think ether of them thinks of themselves as Conservatives.
@@Ultra_Light_Beam Glenn Loury applied for a position within the Reagan administration and is a born-again Christian. I doubt he considers himself left of center.
@@BuceGar But the Reagan administration was several decades ago, and Loury's explicit descriptions of himself as "less of a Christian than (he) used to be" and, in point of fact, being left of center are very recent (in the course of discussions with John McWhorter and Mark Kleiman respectively). On top of that, he has formally endorsed Democratic candidates in (at least) the last four election cycles.
I love the willingness to consider that what helps one poor person likely helps them all without reference to their background, culture, ethnicity, or other dividing factors.
Incredible discussion!!! It is so rare now to have people study data and let the data guide their opinions rather than opinions guide the data they choose to share (usually with a biased interpretation). Hats off gentleman! Wish you had a bigger following. Pundits on the right and left can learn from your critical analysis of data.
I have huge respect for both of these men and follow the work of each closely. I know that GL has a gazillion times more experience than CH and that there is much that he can teach the younger man (as evidenced in this session), but when you invite a guest on your talk show and spend more time talking than the interviewee, something is wrong.
They both spoke equally. It's an intelligent conversation, not strictly an interview.
Coleman had some real spunk here but now seems to have mellowed
This is probably the most interesting debate/discussion I have seen on RUclips (and other media) so far.
I can't believe this is free.
The young man said how the music and sports industries were something that blacks were able to excel in. But you have to remember that those two industries made America richer. Blacks spend all of their money right here in the U.S. They dont have any relatives to send money overseas to. We spend it all here. Look at Black hair care. Its made the Koreans rich. Blacks have three major industries that should have put them over the top. Sports, Music and Hair Care. We should have been able to help our people with just those three. Instead some other groups profits from that money.
Appreciate the discussion, but the continuous drawing of parallels between chattel slavery and wage labor, between slavery/Jim Crow and discrimination against Asians who voluntarily immigrated is disingenuous at best.
Both groups endured discrimination. But the type, duration and level of discrimination are completely different.
What a great discussion guys. I really enjoyed the point about spending patterns, especially the explanatory factors behind such patterns, that Professor Loury made. Why do black people value such things that have no long term wealth and prevent them from accumulating wealth? The point about comparing whites from the north and south (which could be separate cultures though the participants here didn't mention that) and their spending patterns was also equally interesting. Trying to unify all of that with some common feature of being human is even more interesting. I'm looking forward to digging in!
This young man is very interesting to me. It's refreshing to see young people major in things which do not necessarily have a "high income" connected to them. My children are in college now. At first I encouraged them to pursue STEM fields. Only one is doing this. The others are doing political science and fine arts. If they are able to find creative ways to pay for their education, I think college students should pursue their passions in higher academia.
Good conversation. My problem with Colman's view that slavery has too much influence on the discussion of reparations/wealth gap is justified. He doesn't emphasize just how active racial supremacists and allied/sympathetic groups have been in the U.S since slavery. Their ideology has manifested primarily since the slave era in a variety of malicious or deleterious ways. It's an active legacy, one which has heirs on both sides of the argument and has a heavy influence on the racial wealth gap. There's obviously room for nuance but that's the gist of my concerns.
Unfortunately, these gentlemen have little solutions to the problem. One has to admit the solution may be very difficult. Particularly in light of the fact that what has plagued the black community has spilled into the white community and its deadly impact is shown in the present opioid crises that are decimating lower-middle-class white communities. The solution may be some kind of moral or spiritual revival outside of sectarian religion. We must understand that this issue transcends racial disparities and other social maladies, and intersects into the philosophical realm dealing with a worldwide overindulgence in materialism and is connected to universal moral inequalities in the human mind and spirit. We always leave that out of these conversations and surround them only around materialistic aspirations, and we barely approach the moral, spiritual and psychological condition of the human being.
The solution for the opioid crisis is rather obvious imo, considering there's countries with a far better model than yours.
I've never had this specific discussion but if you wanna have a go, I'm game.
Spill out? There have always been poor people in the US in all groups. Drug addicts are in every American group.
Part of their premise is, if I interpret them correctly, that the wage gap need not in and of itself be seen as a problem that needs a solution (viz-a-vis Coleman's final claim that it is simply one more gap that he wishes you to not lose sleep over). Likewise they both claim, if I interpret them correctly, that one solution to the problem (if the phenomenon is accepted as one) would be to seek some sort of color-blind universal uplift of the poorest or least well-off in society (whoever they may be).
zak: It happens at the level of individual and family.. Both Mr Lowry & Mr Hughes are living examples. I agree that every group & country benefits from not letting their spiritual components wither away.
Everyone always talks about the economic impact of redlining. But no one ever mentions the social impact of housing covenants.
If difference in culture is the root cause of racial disparities, then look no further than housing covenants. People who grow up in the same neighborhood, tend to share the same culture.
Black families weren’t allowed to move into White neighborhoods back when “America was great”. That made way for the rise of Black culture.
Way beyond "interesting." Will watch again. Thank you, gentlemen.
Relative poverty is the operative variable in all the most violent cities and neighborhoods all over the world. When the dude down the block has a lot, and others have little, a crazy competitive hierarchy is established and it results in violence. Status and power based on displays of material wealth in poor areas inevitably equals a decrease in the value of human life, and an increase in illegal activity. Folks arent flashing their degrees or report cards in the hood.
That is true in highly unequal societies (like ours) as well.The United States of America is in serious trouble. The industrial working class whose livelihood was decimated after the manufacturing industry was relocated to SE Asia never recovered and is languishing in the ruins of the industrial heartland, the American middle class that was once the envy of the world is shrinking and competition for the remaining jobs is fierce. Wages for the majority are stagnant and not keeping up with inflation. The opportunities that baby boomers had are utopian by today's standards and many of the things that generation took for granted simply do not exist any more. But one demographic has been doing very well. The wealth captured by the top 0.10% of the population has skyrocketed. Three guys (Bezos, Gates and Buffet) are wealthier than the bottom 30-50% of the population and on top of that they and their super rich cohorts pay next to no taxes. Income inequality, by any measure, is off the chart.
The fact is, you can't have a healthy and prosperous society ruled by a class of obscenely rich billionaires. Capitalism is a zero sum game and the more money that is transferred to, and hoarded by, the top income earners, the less is available for everyone else. This is a fact. A society with super rich, has super poor. It is extremely ironic that when it comes to actually existing capitalism (as opposed to economics 101 _theory_) the "evidence based" crowd is just as irrational and in denial as SJWs are about gender and race. A society that rewards ruthless ambition, sociopathic greed and imbues the market with divine qualities that mere mortal humans must not interfere with (unless, of course, it involves gifting proud "capitalist wealth creators" with billions of tax payer dollars when their scams backfire and tank the economy, and regular corporate welfare payments to "save jobs" that usually get cut anyway) can't be anything but dysfunctional. It entrenches a poverty stricken underclass and breeds fear and desperation that gets expressed as anger and violence and self-destructive behavior.
The opioid crisis is a classic example that shows how fucked up America really is. Purdue Pharma handed out Oxycontin pills like they were M&Ms, deliberately misleading doctors and patients alike. The number of pills they gave out is insane. Look it up. What happened? Thousands of people became addicted to a potent opiate and countless lives were, and still are being, destroyed. Purdue paid an $800 million fine and its victims were left to pound sand. The company's owners, the esteemed Sackler family, is doing just fine, thank you. This is just one example of institutionalized exploitation, there are many many more.
Here is the thing with humans in groups. We form dominance hierarchies in which status is unequally distributed. That in itself is not necessarily a problem - there has never been, and there will never be, a society in which everybody is equal in status and power. However, for a society to remain civil and reasonably free of repression it needs to maintain a balanced dominance hierarchy. A bus driver, say, is obviously not as socially powerful or materially wealthy as, say, the CEO of a successful software company. But there has to be a respected place in that society for bus drivers and CEOs alike. Humans have a built in status radar and are keenly aware of their place in the social hierarchy. Someone living in Appalachia who is repeatedly told by the media and prominent leaders that he belongs to a "basket of deplorables" whose members oppress other groups in society just by breathing knows exactly where he stands. So does an Oxycontin addict who is left to suffer alone while Purdue gets a slap on the wrist or someone who works hard and does all the right things but remains poor and and an illness or lay off away from destitution.
Sure, no society can please all the people all of the time, but when blatant exploitation and discrimination creates large numbers of pissed off people who know the system that in theory is supposed to work for everyone is rigged against them and their only choice is submitting to the "bully", and losing their self-respect and the feeling that they are in control of their lives, or mounting a resistance against the powers that are keeping them down...you've got a society with a big problem that will only get worse until the system is changed at a fundamental level or the untouchables/deplorables are forcibly kept in their place by repressive legislation or a police state that further limits their ability to express their grievances and function as full member of society.
The crowd for whom "quit whining and pull yourself up by the bootstraps, son, this is a meritocracy for crying out loud" is the only solution to serious societal dysfunction are as out of touch with reality as the SJWs. They don't understand that a capitalism of all winners is impossible without a state that keeps elite power in check, they don't understand how dominance hierarchies function (SJWs also have trouble with this one) and many of them really do seem to believe in propaganda like "American exceptionalism" which is really embarrassing for a group that is supposed to be learned and wise. They are people for whom the status quo works quite well and their project is basically a defense of said status quo that conveniently deletes inconvenient facts that challenge their smug world view and some of their basic assumptions about economic reality.
Precisely. No war but class was. But at the same time, one can’t deny there is an entrenched culture of anti-intellectualism and nihilism in poor Blacks. Plus considering the fact they lack any means of cultural and social capital, they often relish in this delusion that material wealth precedes intellectual wealth arguably because they lack any cultural insight outside of the monolith the hood creates. And I think I should stress this is central to blacks in the hood. A black kid growing up in the suburbs will not value “‘makin money” more than a college degree; a black kid in the suburbs will have an awareness of cultures outside of his own ; his parents will take him to museums, put him programs- fulfill his potential. What I find epidemic to the hood is a singular notion of success driven by absurd notions of extreme wealth and a pathetic dog eat god mentality which reduces all social dynamics to that of predator vs. prey. This dynamic plus the omnipresent anti intellectual culture lends itself to generational poverty and socioeconomic immobility as they cannot adapt to life or perspective outside of their ignorant bubbles.
Woke blacks who are often upper middle class will always fail to acknowledge this as they themselves have no actual experience growing up in lumpenized/ working class black neighborhoods.
55:50 "Outcome is a function of peoples effort..." effort cannot be assumed equal because of culture. Look at Asian culture and the emphasis on effort.
Coleman Cruise, very cool.
It's a few things and people that's missing from this conversation...... 1)the law of cause and effect
2) nature and the function of power
3) Dr. Claude Anderson, Dr. Joy de' gru and Dr. Michelle Alexander.
I don't have letters behind my name and I will gladly debate him.
Can we get a go fund me to buy these men some AV equipment?
* boomer audio detected! * ;p
I appreciate your show, thanks for the content
49:00 yes.
I do appreciate rational discussions but I think we lose nuance. Why can’t both things be true. That personal responsibility and family culture have a lot to do with how successful you are today in 2022 but at the same time the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow laws against black citizens of our country has greatly affected and created this culture that we all disparage. Period I tend to agree that in spite of these barriers you could still be successful but the social cost and horror of the past does affect the present.
The point about sexual selection pressures and social status on young black men is a strong one. It seems it would also apply to young black women who are competing for the most desirable males. I've also been contemplating this angle since I heard the statistic about African American spending on luxury goods.
I guess the natural follow-up question is why females are selecting for financial incompetence? Gucci logos in particular are probably one of the most prominent signals of low status.
SevenRiderAirForce status symbols are relative to local status hierarchies.
@@lesliemcclinton7844 I don't think it's exclusively a "black" thing. I certainly don't see the same trend in immigrant African or Carribean communities or in middle-class African American communities where I live in NY/NJ.
On the other hand, it is a visible trend in communities where culture is less centered on family, community, and education - and more on survival, immediate gratification, avoidance thru substance abuse & sexual status signaling. Status symbols (fashion & lifestyle brands) are established through strong signals from marketing & pop culture. These are aspirational status symbols for most people and are counterbalanced by foundational family/community signals. But for people who don't have strong local family/community signals and who can't envision their own future - they are going to (incorrectly) feel that spending on these symbols is useful. All of this is driven by evolutionary survival & social reproductive pressures. It would make perfect sense for someone in this situation to spend recklessly - especially if that person doesn't spend enough time thinking about and planning their own future. It's tragic - and not exclusive to black or white. It's a problem best solved thru personal responsibility, strong engaged family, education & supportive community.
One think we need to be more careful to distinguish between "cause" and "blame." In a sense, "blame" is like "cause" with the addition of a moral judgement and even an evaluation of worth. That clouds the issue.
Events typically have long chains of causation with many earlier influences joining together to create later influences. There is no initial cause where one must begin. And even if one could identify an original cause, often by this late date there is nothing that can be done about it.
Culture evolves by communities to adapt to their long-term circumstances. What is stereotyped as "black culture" (thoughts and behaviors which are more common among African Americans than among other groups) is an adaptation to African Americans' historical circumstances.
For many generations of black people, improving one's mind was worse than wasted effort. Not only was one forbidden to benefit from it -- bettering oneself (getting "uppity") attracted violent hostility. Saving money and investing in durable property attracted crime that the Justice system seemed indifferent to protecting. The only sure way to benefit from good fortune was by rapidly consuming its goods before strangers had time to take notice, get jealous, and plan their crime. Optimizing for the long term is a luxury only for those who feel they will it is even possible to benefit from that.
OK, so given their history, African Americans cannot be _blamed_ for being like that. But we cannot change the history that is the cause of this culture, nor will handing over reparations change it.
Given that the culture developed over two centuries, I suppose that two centuries from now with the racist discrimination removed, things might become quite different. But if we don't wish to wait that long then artificial means must be used to accelerate modification of the culture to make it better adapted to today's circumstances.
In some ways the argument over culture is analogous to the argument over "good English" and "bad English." Grammatical English is not inherently better, but having been made the standard, "good English" is more _effective_ -- because with standard English you can communicate well with a wider variety and number of other English speakers.
Changing the culture to be better adapted to today's circumstances is not something white people can do for black people without the enthusiastic cooperation of black cultural leaders. It's a difficult and painful task, but it is largely up to African Americans whether to undertake the project.
56 minutes in... Why assume there are no genetic differences between the races when it comes to various measures of performance? There are certainly easily measurable differences in genetics that predispose performance in other areas such as predisposition to various diseases, testosterone level, blood oxygen level, fast versus slow twitch muscle fiber, skull shape, etc.
If you racialize the problem, you racialize the solution. If you don’t like race-based solutions, don’t base your reading of the problem on race.
Thank you both - Marlo Bernier
I don't think anyone could accuse Glen of soft-balling this conversation.
As a white man that went through the system for 3 years, 1 total year being incarcerated, for petty crimes and has a friend who was shot many times by a police officer when I was a teen, I appreciate this kind of deracializing things so much. It's human problems more then anything, like you guys discussed there is similar but different issues that are in either base cultures. I am a HUGE advocate to police reform because I have personal problems with some of it(of course I wasn't 100% innocent but the criminal justice system is blind in its unfairness) but I have time and again been told my voice is irrelevant in social issues pertaining to injustice of the system because I'm white, even by my own family. Through the 3 years, though I definitely live in a less black populace(northwest), I saw the injustice unfold on people... and it is clear as day that the poor suffer this more then anyone(and who else is most likely to act out through stress alone). Anyways mostly just saying all this because the discussion is greatly appreciated and it's very nice to see people trying to actively look at the hard to look at problems as objectively/honestly as possible.
I enjoyed reading your 3+years old comment...& I just noticed your pretend name is "crackcrock", which is interesting. I hope you're doing well & in a place in life where you're making good decisions.
I wonder if Roland Fryer's article "An Empirical Analysis of Acting White" is relevant to Coleman's point about intangible cultural factors (e.g., attitudes towards education)....
Glad to hear the nod to Thomas Sowell. Great discourse, at times I think correlation vs causation were conflated.
I understand the focus was on racial disparity in America... but the limited scope of this perspective is akin to assessing the climate of the earth by simply studying the past million years on a planet that is 4.5 billion years old.
The false assertion that forced labor and the benefits it yields are unique to Black Americans asserts that we can learn nothing from 12,000 years of slavery, with an estimate 40 million people in bondage in 2019.
You left out an important issue. The presence of the soul and is there a creator. This is the difference now between the Jews, past slaves and African Americans, past slaves. I believe that the black race is one of the most incredible races. In the past their faith oozed out from their souls. The music that lifted all people. This I believe was god given. They were examples of grace, dignity, fortitude, integrity, faith, and backbone. I could go on and on. The government and woke and cancel cultures are evidence of this, “no soul”.
You know what would help with the Black wealth gap, Coleman? Reparations!
Yeah, 'cause throwing money at a problem always fixes it. Best reparations would be to give 3 generations free education. Then it's on them from that point on. I guarantee that would have a longer lasting impact than a payout.
@@Aiphiae Obviously, structural racism in the USA is a multi-faceted problem that has existed and has been spreading since the very beginning of this nation, but the reality that Black Americans have been systematically denied the same opportunities as their white peers has clearly led to a vast imbalance of wealth. So yes, monetary reparations MUST be a part of any serious set of solutions meant to address systemic racial bias. This isn't complicated.
@@dlg5485 "This isn't complicated." Riiiiiight, which is why nobody can seem to agree on whether or not reparations are a good idea, and if they are, how much should be given and who should get it. Gotcha.
@@Aiphiae It isn't complicated for me or anyone I know. The fact that some white people (and a few self-hating Black folks) are against reparations doesn't matter a whit to me. You should take a look back through history and review how often thru time everyone in society has gotten behind doing the RIGHT thing without a fight. I couldn't care less how many people disagree, I'll keep fighting for complete and total racial equality and justice for as long as I'm alive.
@@dlg5485 Ah yes. There it is. "A few self-hating Black folks." There's the backwards racism I knew was lurking under the surface. Why must they hate themselves if they don't see things YOUR way? Maybe they think handing money to people isn't a good long term solution. I can think of a number of concrete examples illustrating why that's a completely reasonable (and accurate) position to take. Do you not think a group of people could generate more long term wealth and power in society through the education of multiple generations rather than giving a lump sum to one generation? You're talking to me like I must be a bad person because I'm not getting behind "doing the right thing" when the truth is, I want the same equality you do, I just think reparations are a terrible way to go about achieving it.
Loury/Hughes 2020!
More and more attentive listening to your guest would be welcome.
Watching this I don't feel like some helpless victim
Great chat. Thanks for the upliad.
Great conversation.