why does the Jag destroy sappers in 3 hits?
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- Опубликовано: 15 ноя 2020
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Игры
In true Source Spaghetti fashion, it's never the two sensible causes, but a third one with much deeper spaghettification
I mean, the two "sensible" causes are based on the code straight up not doing what it's written to. This is just an unforseen interaction between two different bits of code, that makes a lot more sense than something that would be immediately tested to see if it works properly.
y'must have a real hard time finding stuff if you find a needle out in the open and where anyone would expect to find one, and you still go "wow, this is like finding a needle in a haystack!"
it's also kinda hard to imagine the "sensible" cause being that the sapper takes damage normally, since ... it doesn't. you don't damage it by whacking it, but whacking the building it's attached to, and on the player's end it doesn't so much as have "hp" as all other objects in the game, but rather "hits to destroy." absolutely nothing about this suggests that removing sappers goes through the standard damage procedures
honestly, the only weird thing that this video reveals is that a sapper takes 65 damage from a normal wrench, rather than 50
@@hi-i-am-atan a wrench damaging a sapper for 65 isn't that weird IMO, because if you've ever played a spy that saps Engineer buildings, and you pay attention to your building HUD, you'll see that a sappers HP doesn't go down by 50% when hit by a non-jag wrench, based on the (imprecise) bar-based HP display for it. It goes down by more than half of the bars (IIRC it's half of the bars plus one). Though treat this whole comment with an asterisk that says If I recall correctly - its been awhile since I myself have paid attention to my Spy building HUD.
@@UnlimitedRun less "weird" in the sense of "this doesn't follow suit with how it behaves" and more "weird" in the sense of "there is no real reason for it"
???
the fact that the engi does an angry face while hitting his own sentry is very cute
Angry boi
@@xflasz yes
Engy: *gottam*
what about the fact that spy does an angry face when his sapper is broken
stop promoting abuse
disappointment
Ok this was my favourite gaben ending so far "additon; it's hard... Its hard!"
I accedently skipped 10 seconds si the only thing i heard was its hard... its hard
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
@@redstone_orange people ask you if you're fine and you say it's fine but it's not fine
It's hard... It's just so hard
you know whats hard? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
cry of fear i don’t even have the glock yet and i haven’t progressed due to fear and scary
@@jamesbryan287 "If you hard then you hard"
"If I hit someone with the stock wrench, they take 65 damage"
Strange, it deals 195 when I play.
you got a random crit which is definitely fair and balanced
hmm... what a *strange wrench* you got...
@@noonehere6994 buying it for 2.. No 3! Scrap metal
Spy when sapper: :I
Spy when no sapper: >:(
Spy when sapping: :)
@@nukkonyan >:)
Spy when sap
Spy when has no sap
*hehe*
Man that is some detail
I love how the Spy gets mad when the sapper gets destroyed, and subsequently places another one.
"STOP REMOVING MY SAPPERS!" _as the Spy places another one._
Could you imagine if it was 4 hits for the sapper with the jag? That’d be a surefire way to ensure it never gets used again...
Yeah.. while it all sounds quite spaghetti-ish, I feel like Jag's three hit de-sapping is very much intentional
What do you guys mean its in its attribute it was 100% intentional to balance out because of its increased attack speed
It makes sense if you ask me, the Jag was design to make sentry building faster at the price of being more disposable, for that the fact that it should be harder to repair is only appropriate.
I’m sure the end result was intentional but surely they could have just tweaked the stats so it dealt 35 dmg a sapper swing. I doubt engies will be running around busting sentries.
The 3 hits to destroy a sapper is already painful enough, 4 and I'll just switch to using the southern hospitality and eureka effect
No level of build speed will convince me to go back when I have to swing 4 times to destroy a sapper
Never noticed that Spy's face looks angry when his sapper is destroyed. Pretty interesting.
Also, all I've learned from this channel is that the code for TF2 has been spaghetti from the start, not just over time.
I wonder if the spy makes that face because of spaghetti code, too. Like maybe it's because spy's sapper is technically a "building", and the engie makes a similar face if his buildings are destroyed, but the difference is spy doesn't have a voice line associated with his sapper being destroyed?
@@graysongdl To be fair there are lots of subtle little expressions. Demoman generally has an evil smile when he’s laying down stickies
@@laylaruan I never knew that! I knew that they generally change expression right after swinging their melee, but I guess I've never noticed anything specific to firing other weapons.
@@graysongdl Yeah, they're nice little touches. Now I think about it I don't think they're that common though - most of the facial expressions will be dependent on voice line, or if taking damage or whatever. One other one I can think of though is that Heavy often smiles while firing his gun, even if he's not speaking or yelling
@@laylaruan And pretty much all the classes have a sad expression when low on hp.
So from what I learned from all the sapper videos on this channel:
- The wrench has its own damage for sappers which is 65.
- Hitting a sapped building is still hitting the building. What happens is that secondary damage is also indirectly applied to sappers.
- The secondary damage is affected by modifiers to building damage and not by general damage modifiers.
Basically, we need a primary that takes sappers off with projectiles.
Or possibly, a secondary
Short circuit primary fire????
No. That would be too powerful.
Add it to the rescue ranger, that weapon could really use a buff :)
Imagine a secondary like that. At least it would make you use a single brain cell when choosing between it and the wrangler.
Dunno mate but i think your about to tell us
he did
No shit mate
Who are you, who is so wise in the ways of science?
@@pcarrierorange he is a bucket of chicken
@Gui mer but why
The jag more like the jank
Jag always crits
So how does the homewrecker work, it has the building damage bonus and it deals the same damage in enemy buildings and sappers
Because it does not have a damage bonus, which only applies to players and buildings but not sappers
The code probably only does it this way for wrenches, which would explain the constant 65 (stock wrench).
Normal melee weapons (without the wrench extension) are processed differently.
Pure speculation, no confirmation.
It works exactly the same as the jag. Its base damage (49) is not relevant when calculating damage done to buildings (including sappers). If it was, it would only deal 98 damage to buildings so it would take two hits to destroy sappers and minis (so it would be a slightly worse Neon Annihilator).
Edit: didn't mention this, but the Homewrecker deals 130 damage to buildings.
Homewrecker works like this, base damage of melee + 100% damage against buildings.
it does 130 dmg to sappers and buildings alike hence one hit sapper removal
@@ReviewGuy01 but that would mean that the homewrecker would do normal damage against buildings, and 100% on sappers based on what shounic said
As an engineer main, seeing the sapper break in one hit was beautiful
As a spy main (sometimes), it was awful
I'm impressed no one's mentioned how well edited this video is, i love this format
Thumbnail:
Jag destroys sappers
Girl depressed
The girl is a spy Main.
she is depressed because she's wondering why te jag takes 3 hits to destroy
Broke: "Because it was designed that way to offset the weapon's positive attributes."
Woke:
Honestly this video shows an interesting fact, but the code itself isn't problematic IMO.
I actually think it's quite clever to separate the damage bonus and the damage to sappers
I wouldn’t want to live in a pub where the jag breaks sappers in 4 hits.
Yeah it's interesting, but this time the code indeed makes sense for what it is meant to be. A simple fix would be to take in account the normal damage penalty too and increase the Jag's damage, but even then, this right now is just as intended.
It's jank either way, because both damage penalties get applied for buildings that aren't sappers.
@@PsychadelicoDuck The least jank thing to do in this case would be to add a hidden attribute about sapper damage.
Or just ignore the problem and just replace the damage penalty with a damage VS PLAYERS penalty. It would not change anything, and would reflect the current behavior a lot better but would make the jag slightly better at destroying enemy buildings (which why would you do that with a jag anyway?) i dunno, just an idea
I imagine the wrench's base damage against sappers is hard coded in in case they ever gave engineer a melee weapon that did more damage than stock.
1:22 How it feels to fight spies with the big earner
2:15 How it feels to fight spies with the kunai
Shounic, love your vids. You are amazing at editing, everything looks so clean and amazingly done, Great job man. I Love seeing new videos getting posted. Thanks for such quality in your videos.
Got here by a random recommended video, and it turns out it's not the first time! I loved your tf2 source code comments montage and explanation. Your editing skills are amazing, I hope your channel grows, because you deserve it.
Honestly while it’s kind of odd now, I think this setup makes sense considering the weapon’s history.
When first added, The Jag just had a 30% faster construction rate and 25% damage penalty, which would have led to it having taken 3 hits to destroy sappers if damage penalties affected them. Since that’d make it pretty awful (IIRC the early versions of the Jag are generally regarded as pretty weak even with 2 hit unsapping) it’d make sense for the generic damage modifiers not to affect sappers, as then it’d be easier to have a wrench with modified damage without risking completely ruining it. Eventually after various changes the Jag became too good, so it was nerfed by making it take 3 hits to unsap. I presume the damage to buildings modifier was first made to affect sappers when the Homewrecker gained the ability to destroy sappers (a few months before the Jag was added I think), at which point they had decided that the Homewrecker should take off sappers in one hit and, rather than adding a whole extra attribute just for that, just added that functionality to the existing building damage stat that was already on it. So when the Jag was nerfed, they simply reused the same property of the building damage attribute, while leaving the rest of the stats as is.
This is probably kind of rambly and it’s mostly conjecture anyway, but that’s just my thoughts on the topic.
Your videos are always a pleasure to watch & very relaxing. Thank you
really great video, good work man
Now... Imagine... If the Jag... takes 4 Goddamned hits to take off a. single. sapper. As Valve intended it to be
This is what I was going to mention. When it was reworked I thought to myself "Oh, so you need 3 hits to kill a sapper. Well, it swings much faster so the time difference isn't *that* significant."
Boy would it be a way worse wrench if it worked as intended...
Jag no-
this is how its intended to work tho, thats why it only considers the building damage penalty and not the normal damage penalty
except they never intended it that way lmao
@@guy_th18 from the video, at least for me, it's hard to tell if they intended all the spaghetti code for when the jag first was added, and knowing how bad they are at balancing the 4 hits to take off a sapper seems something possible
so i think the reason it uses a baked in 65 dmg in calculations is from maybe a time when dmg spread effected buildings and was larger, so that sappers would always get broken in two hits.
it also makes sense that the jag has a hidden building dmg nerf so that it effects sappers the way you would expect it to with its dmg nerf
Shounic should recieve the Finder's Fee (bug report hat)
Change my mind
Well, he’s just pointing things out/answering questions usually with some sort of client assist.
Not showing game breaking bugs.
The things he shows are already known, he just explains them
"That's its a new mechanic for Heavy update?"
enginner gaming time
I absolutely love your videos, like wow, I barely play tf2 now but these are mesmerising lol
Now I want a wrench that deals 250% dmg to buildings ‘to destroy sappers’ but actually use it for uberded pushes against enemy sentries.
spooOOooky!
I think this is the first shounic video I've seen where the way the thing works is pretty much exactly how I expected it to.
Does this also apply to pyro weapons that can remove sappers?
Luv ur vids dude
0:22
So equipping the big earner makes your health as much as a tiny radio?
Your videos are pretty cool because they come out when I have lunch
I love your thumbnails
Your videos are incredibly interesting!!!!
Wow good video sonic thanks
engineer gaming
Engineer Gaming
Engy outsmart bullets
@@jveerf8573 Yes.
@@jveerf8573 Yes.
Very interesting
Wow that is interesting
test livestream - this Saturday, the 21st, 8 pm EST. read: ruclips.net/user/postUgxq4bO4gepDpk9haBt4AaABCQ
Okay
Bro it says the post isn't available
@@guscox9651 hmm, i have no clue why that would happen. other people seem to be able to see it fine, but i made a pastebin mirror pastebin.com/aDZdmyeS
A reminder to reloading cancelation. Will this get a video or will be in one of videos?
@@shounic thank you, and the yt thing still doesn't work but prolly a me problem
this guy is basically the tf2 version of 3kliksphillip
huh, i thought it could've been due to a rounding error but this makes more sense
Epic nae nae moment
Those Gaben edits at the end are the best part of the videos 😄
Pybro: Wait you guys have to hit it more than once?
Wow that was... exactly what I thought it was. (Using jag a lot I noticed the building damage being applied separately)
You’re content is very similar to 3kphllips, which is why I love it.
one of the things i love about shounic is how their thumbnails look like grandiose shitposts featuring tf2
jag gaming
I love these vids do you still have more planned?
the pastafarians could have never predicted the tf2 source engine
I would've expected the jag to do more damage because you know it's got a massive spike on the end
I used to be friends with the guy that made the Jag model. It was so hype that update we found it in the game files, but not yet implemented.
This is one of the few channels that still constantly uploads interesting TF2 videos.
Epic
I never knew that these penalties were supposed to be in addition to one another. Truth be told, I never tried to hit an enemy building with a Jag. Yeah I know. Crazy.
I always thought it's because of the '-20% slower repair speed' thing.
How affects the damage of the sapper on the time it takes to destroy a building?
Love that the spy is called sphee
3:15 look at the spy face Lmao
engineer
I love how spy gets angry when engie destry le sapper
I don’t play TF2 but the incredibly high quality of your vids I just have to subscribe
Does this mechanic also applies for the homewrecker damage bonus against building?
I'm glad it works this way. If I had to take 4 swings to break a sapper instead of 3, I would never use the Jag again.
I love how the spy is called Sphee.
Jerma is great
Only just realised that Spy frowns every time his sapper gets broken
"The basic fundamental functions of a melee weapon; such as unlimited swings, and a limited range".
Demoknights? Limited range!? Are we playing the same game here; I've been hit from across the room by more swords than I can count
It seems the only people who play Demoknight are the ones with 70 - 200 ping.
Don't forget the edgy spy mains that abused cl_interp and facestabbed people from across the map
conclusion: the sword is not a melee weapon
What you see on a server is NEVER what actually happened as everything already happened due to travel time, you live 1 second in the past but move as if your in the future. When you're dead you always live on your end for a short time longer then then everyone else sees. During this time nothing you do matters.
You've never been hit across the room by swords.
You just didn't realize you're dead till they made it across the room.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 damn that last sentence is fucking COOL.
It really enjoy your editing style and all your graphics and animations. I would not mind if you diverted from tf2 and started talking about other subjects, like the video you did about copyright. Keep up the good work!
yay
Guess I have a new talent now, I can hear spy screams when he gets hit even if no sounds are applied.
I think it’s funny how you try to hit the spy far away.
in that case, the pyro's homewrecker have a similar funtion to?
How did you just modify the item attributes?
Jag with 4 hit to sap, Engie main be like : "Nope"
Explain the quick switch glitch with hats like the blast shield
Could you do a similar format to explain the homewrecker in a little more depth?
sapper 10th character confirmed
Aye a rare equal view to sub ratio. Awesome, I'ma sub.
they say playing engineer is emotional just look at the spys face when you destroy his sapper it's like he is filled with rage because you kill his little child and the only thing in he wants in his life is revenge
#sapper_lifes_matter
I dont play tf2 at all but your videos are so well made I cant resist watching
You are easily the best TF2 youtuber and I've been watching TF2 stuff for over 5 years
1:25
Spy: A N G E R
I love how big tf2 is and how small this problem is
Dear Shounic may you talk about how much damage you can tank with the DeadRinger
Homewrecker explanation is required now
kaboom
"If I hit an enemy player or building, no damage is dealt"
Spy: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
Gaben: it's hard
Me: that's what she said
"unlimited swings and unlimited range" I see what your getting at there.
So how do the Homewrecker and Neon Annihilator work? They can remove sappers, but not repair or upgrade buildings?
I realized that I wasn’t subbed to shounic just now and I fixed that
3:25 when your step sis ask what youre doing in the bathroom for 30 minutes
Poo pow bam bap pow