This is why the videos from an end of a era concert are so amazing. The band was performing knowing that Tarja was being fired after the concert. They could have just gone through the motions but instead gave it their all for the fans.
yes exactly! there's a few moments where you can totally feel the tension in the air (and band) though Tarja acts like she's oblivious to it all, which I thought was pretty thick of her
@@brennieb78 That's because she didn't know. If you check the wiki page for Nightwish, you'll see that Tarja responded to the letter, and how she recieved it. Tarja says that Tuomas gave her the letter after the End of an Era DVD concert.
Tuomas was truly heartbroken doing this, and it sent him into a depression. In this depression he wrote The Poet and the Pendulum. Many of the fans turned on Tuomas, and even the prime minister of Finland spoke up on the dismissal. It was huge there, and Tuomas and Tarja had grown up in the same small town of Kitee, Finland and knew each other from childhood. Tuomas' mother even taught Tarja piano as a small child.
The story starts earlier. 2000 Nightwish tours with Sinergy. The mood in the band is bad and Tuomas names Syergy's boss Kimberley Goss two culprits: One is bassist Sami Vänskä, who has become an alcoholic and is drunken on stage. Marko is Sinergy's bass player and apes him during the concert. On the other hand it is Tarja. She tells interviews that she is only a temporary member of Nightwish and her "opera diva" attitude conflicts with the band's "rock star" attitude. In 2001 Tuomas pushed Sami out of the band and poached Marko from Sinergy. Kimberley is angry and publishes the conversation. Tuomas denies everything and Tarja goes to Germany to study classical art singing. That feels good for her, but Tuomas wants more pop in the music and not more classical. After that they record two more LPs, but the relationship is getting worse and the breakup rumors are getting louder. In 2005 they traveled separately to the concerts and only met on stage. She had already prepared her solo career at this point and wanted a pause from Nightwish. The timing of the termination may have come as a surprise to Tarja, but not the termination itself. And while we're at it, the final candidates for Tarjas follow: NIGHTWISH - Lead Vocalist Candidates in 2006
You want to know how Tarja was thinking about Tuomas in relation to all that happened? She wrote the song "Enough" a few years later....: [2009 re-release bonus track] Ego selfish prima donna Dancing in your poisoned cage Thinking that your conscience's clearer If you drink your dreams away Feed your anger to the devil In yourself built wishing well Take a swim in muddy waters All the dirt will leave a trail Had enough symphonies of sorrow Be so brave and weep me away Masterpiece of treachery Built a wall and made me crumble Just because I am in love Don't you lie, that you kept all Those are toys that you have got Smash the mirror of the version Keep the dagger that you made Mirror, mirror, is there someone Who can make your day today Had enough symphonies of sorrow Be so brave and weep me away Had enough symphonies of sorrow Be so brave and weep me away Masterpiece of treachery You might also like The Seer Tarja Calling Grace Tarja Paradise (What About Us?) Within Temptation Kept my thoughts buried in a box When it's shut, I still kept it locked You draw a play written with my blood Went ahead just to feed the lot Had enough symphonies of sorrow Be so brave and weep me away Had enough symphonies of agony Be so brave and weep me away Masterpiece of treachery
Hi, thanks so much for writing about the song Enough here. WoW. Is it true that they treated her badly because she was in love, how she sings? A lot of people talk about how Tarja is bad. But I don't understand why. I have seen her interviews and her live streams and she is very nice. I'm so confused by all of this. It feels like people are talking about two different people. Has anyone ever said anything bad about Tarja? I mean, somewhere other than just the letter? That letter seems to me to have been written very impulsively. Like when I'm angry and say something that I later regret. Maybe it's familiar stuff, but I don't really care about the band, I'm just interested as part of Tarja's history.
Finn/American dual. First heard when I was 8 via bros. Saw End of Era at 16. Here is a 2002 interview. It explains a lot that people get wrong. T&T are a looong story. But she isnt a diva.He isn’t a bad guy either. It was time. She as she says isnt a rock girl. The guys partied. She didnt. She’d been studying in Germany for yrs. NP. It’s true Tuomas didn’t like her husband bc he was protective and seen as intrusive. But partly business tension and party personal:Tarja had been vic of attempted sexual assault on stage in Mexico and Marcello stopped it. In the end Tarja was Tuomas muse thru his romantic tolkein peter pan disney operatic vision. He was heading more commercial and more realistic and metal. It was time. It just was a) bad timing when and b) bad method how and c) typical Tuomas self pity reasons. Same with Sami. His oldest friend. Had someone else dump him. And later with Annette. A genius with no so good people skills. m.ruclips.net/video/gt0haAiGbHo/видео.html&pp=ygUWdHVvbWFzIHRhcmphIGludGVydmlldw%3D%3D
there was one side of the truth in the letter, the band's. Then there is Tarja's truth, which does not appear here as Tarja's message. then there are the many different people's own truths and opinions. there are two great sayings: It takes two or more people to argue, it's bad to argue alone. another saying; there are three sides to the matter, yours, mine and his/hers
Side note, but an interesting one perhaps. Here's what Floor said abt Tarja's manager/husband Marcelo Cabuli. Floor tells the interviewer abt the only project she ever regretted. It was produced by one Beto Vazquez. Then the interviewer says: I: "I asked about it, becauze Beto Vazquez himself has also written an open letter about the Nightwish issue, in which he defends Tarja. He says that for his project she earned just enough to get herself a pair of shoes" Floor: "But then Beto Vazques has to have the honesty to tell that his producer is Tarja's husband." I: "Ah I see!" Floor: "Yeah, so that guy indeed. Disgusting bloke. We always asked ourselves why Tarja hung out with him." I: "Nightwish as well.." Floor: "Haha, yes. Any more questions? Otherwise, I can tell you that we're starting our European tour at the end of January. We play in the Netherlands, Belgium [etc..]" In the same interview (Jan, 2006), Floor says that the open letter was a brave decision and: "I think that NW would've really been torn to pieces if Tarja had stayed. From that pov it's a good decision, but also unfortunate it had to be done."
@@kersa6574 Can't blame her tbh (considering the infamous Guadalajara 2000 incident that got Cabuli into the picture). After watching the End Of Innocence "documentary", I'm actually surprised she stayed that long.
@@BrendonChase_2015 "I'm actually surprised she stayed that long." I think we can all learn from this that when others do the hard work and the ticket says "80k per night", you suddenly feel so motivated. At least for a while.
Honestly kinda shocked at Floor's statements. It's one thing to think it but another to say these things about another band's business and a colleagues' personal relationships to the PRESS. I thought she was kinder, not one for gossip
There are usually always the same myths in the comments, so let's shoot them down: Tuomas: “After the [Tarja] split, the next few months were really, really dark. The things that really saved me from doing anything silly were my family, my close friends and the film The Village by M. Night Shyamalan. I watched it twice a day for weeks. That film made all the difference. Just the idea of this community living in peace in the middle of the wood, secluded from the world. Plus it has the best soundtrack ever written. It just filled me with comfort and hope. I was never suicidal, it wasn’t even close, but I was in a really dark place. It was the worst period of my life. Call it depression, but not suicidal. I want to make that clear.” Tuomas: “I've had the feeling twice that we are ending the band. First in 2001, when we fired our first bass player (Sami Vänskä), the second time when Marko (Hietala) left. But when Tarja (Turunen) left or when Anette (Olzon) left, I never got the feeling that this is the end. Vice versa. Perseverance reared its head: 'We have to get over this and show the world'."
Marcelo did not want her to perform in the USA, it was not profitable enough because of the small venues in the USA. NW wants to reach all fans, they are not money driven. Their tickets are per example way cheaper than Metallica etc. Marcelo did not want her to have contact and pushed her to start a solo cariere. But it was as a sword of damacolus hanging above NW and Tuomas could not write music anymore. He demanded a private tour bus for Tarja and her not to rehearse anymore with NW. For a sensitive person as Tuomas and NW who live for the music it was a slap in the face. They lost a lot of so called friends and fans and the media went bazurk. The letter is written by the whole band. Marko was TOTALLY done with Marcelo and Tarja too. He set Tarja up against NW and lied to her and to NW. An evil MF I can say.
@@yerviniansamvel still doesn't paint the whole picture. Marko was in his own battle with depression and booze and let's face it Tuomas was drinking pretty heavily as well. Tarja's Husband was also pushing buttons. No one knows exactly what went down because we were not there. You can not put blame on 1 person
Well, it is a fact that Marcelo did not want her to perform with NW in the USA, too few fans so not enough money. Sad he had a great influence on Tarja.
@@monicacarolina6480No, they wanted to perform at bigger venues. Nothing wrong with that. That was when they actually had their music played on MTV and the radio in the US. Now look at them. Still barely making it in America. The majority of people that even go to their shows know them from reaction videos. Without RUclips, they would still be doing the same venues. I mean, they’re still not doing that big of venues these days still.
I heard about this letter when I was researching the band (I am a new member of the Nightwish army 🙂). Now I know the exact content...... It's not up to me to have an opinion about it, as I don't know the circumstances back then. We all know in emotion you feel and see things in a different way. What is right or wrong only the people involved will know. As some say in the comments, it's been so long ago, why bring this up again. An old Dutch saying comes in mind: "oude koeien niet uit de sloot halen". I guess in English it's something like "don't dig up old bones".
I was in the last show, and next day this happened... Still one of the saddest moments of my life... But I still don't like how the band did this... Put all the blame on Tarja in public without giving her a chance to defend herself and tell her side of the story... Band boys were always drinking and partying all the time, and believe me, i've seen those guys many times doing that, and Tarja couldnt, because of singing voice, so i think this was one of the reasons why they drift a part... They didn't really do anything together except shows and albums... Boys were doing they stuff and Tarja doing hers...
I dont know why this needs to be a reaction, it was painful enough for everybody when it happened. That being said, they all screwed up here, Tarja and the guys. Didn't need to be made this public though, that was in bad Taste. I'm just glad they've all made their peace with it. Tarja sending Tuomas her condolences when his father died and Marko and Tarja singing together again.
You can;t say they all screwed up. I truly think NW and Tarja gor screwed big time by Marcelo and HEY if he wants to react on it, let him. You can ignore it and move on right? To understand the dynamics within NW and a lot of songs IT IS important. And Marko admitted in an interview 6 moths ago he needed to think about sharing the stage. Happy he did it.
@@monicacarolina6480 Marko was fed up because of the music industry setting this up, not because he didn't feel comfortable performing with Tarja, because Tarja and he already performed together years ago, 2017 I believe. This summer wasnt the first time they met after the split and sang together again. And yes, they all screwed up during those years, they all should and could have communicated their needs and wishes better, and handled the situation more maturely. But they were young and I believe they grew and learned as people and would do a lot better now. It's obvious they are all nice people at their core. Tarja is still very loved among her peers.
Surely Marcello changed Tarja, and made her go more for the money in everything, but Tarja was kind of diva before this, by not rehearse, and only come to studio to record, and lot of other stuff, now im not sure i think this open letter should have been open, as its very personal stuff written in it, but in the other hand it really gave the fans insight in this matter, and i think the band really wanted that, so yes im a bit split on the fact that it is open. Tarja also was planning to go solo at some point anyway, she didnt hide that fact, maybe some words are a bit harsh idk, but the decision to kick Tarja, was right im sure, as she would go solo soon anyway, and because of the situation in general.. Nightwish is Tuomas soul, and he as well as the other band members could not see this lack of dedication for the band, as well as Marcello pulling the strings of Tarja.. with that said i still think the Tarja era of NW is great, and Tarja did great music.. she is also still the NW front singer with most albums.. Also im a fan of Tarja´s solo music today, she did a good solo carrer afterwards, and make brilliant music..
Okay. So again, only the view of one side and things in the letter taken out of context.. A twenty-year-old letter that Tuomas also regrets and Marko apologized to Tarja a few years ago. Tarja went through hell too, not just Tuomas. And this is still so painful for many fans.
@@zbygniewprlwytzkofsky6614 Back then for Nightwish fans. They were mutual fans. Today I'm mainly a fan of Tarja and her music, but I also listen to the new NW albums, but I don't follow them much as a band anymore, even though I have a personal connection to a few songs. And lots of NW fans love all eras.
Okee. you read the open letter and so came Annette and then came the karma ,Floor Janssen came to the band and see what happened the years after that and now they still stare and grow and grow ,Floor they sit like family like brothers go before the fire for each other, so much feeling there is now after more than 10 years of Floor and Nigthwisch., more successful than ever, bigger than ever, sold-out venues all over the world whether they do 3 or 5 shows, always sold-out venues, and by now you know how sensitive and the love towards the band is mutual respect, the balance is perfect now, okay Marco left the band but not for THE BAND, other things played there mme they are good friends together and the drummer Jukka is still with the band. Karma my friend Karma❤❤❤
The backlash was awful for airing the dirty laundry, but it was crucial to get their side out there because they knew how Marcello worked and as her manager he would have tried to crucify them with B.S. & capitalize off of her being dismissed. He got to anyway as everyone got involved- even the leader of their country. It was bad. Tuomas was so depressed that he did not know even after 6 months if they were done. He was suicidal. Thankfully, he wrote Poet & the Pendulum; committing musical suicide and getting out his stages of grief in song.
"Tuomas was so depressed that he did not know even after 6 months if they were done. He was suicidal. " Tuomas: “After the [Tarja] split, the next few months were really, really dark. The things that really saved me from doing anything silly were my family, my close friends and the film The Village by M. Night Shyamalan. I watched it twice a day for weeks. That film made all the difference. Just the idea of this community living in peace in the middle of the wood, secluded from the world. Plus it has the best soundtrack ever written. It just filled me with comfort and hope. I was never suicidal, it wasn’t even close, but I was in a really dark place. It was the worst period of my life. Call it depression, but not suicidal. I want to make that clear.” Tuomas: “I've had the feeling twice that we are ending the band. First in 2001, when we fired our first bass player (Sami Vänskä), the second time when Marko (Hietala) left. But when Tarja (Turunen) left or when Anette (Olzon) left, I never got the feeling that this is the end. Vice versa. Perseverance reared its head: 'We have to get over this and show the world'."
@ValtteL regarding my statements, they were based on interviews. I either watched or read (cannot remember which) an interview by Tuomas a few years after the split where he said that whether or not Nightwish was going to continue was still not decided six months after, and he was in a deep depression. Then he said that he was in the wilderness with all the beauty around him when he finally thought they would carry on. In another interview regarding The Poet & The Pendulum, he said he was having suicidal thoughts when he was deeply depressed but would not do that, so he wrote a musical suicide in song. Your interview is recent as he is talking about Marko leaving as well, so I think it is retrospective, and his own perceptions & analysis of how he was feeling has changed in his mind over time.
@@majbrat "Your interview is recent as he is talking about Marko leaving as well, so I think it is retrospective, and his own perceptions & analysis of how he was feeling has changed in his mind over time." Ending the band interview clip is from 2021 obviously but the Tarja split part is from 2007. There are their book (2006), Maan Mainiot document, countless interviews where Tuomas is very consistent, like he always is. Ending the band part doesn't make any sense at all - they fired Tarja because they wanted to continue. "he did not know even after 6 months if they were done" Like example inside in that timeline they were looking for a new drum technician, helping hand for Jukka and they contacted Kai.
If all that was said in the letter was correct it was fair enough to part company with her but if it was not true hmmmm it may have been an act to part ways and stain her reputation with fans Also the second singer was fired under strange circumstances after becoming pregnant
I discovered Tarja last year thanks to her beautifully dark Christmas song. I learned about the letter only recently. I'm only now learning about her history and former band and I feel so sorry for her. I think they treated her cruelly. I don't believe everything that is written in the letter. It was written by one angry person and I think there is a lot of pain and there is a real reason written between the lines that is completely different. This is not a letter to get someone fired, but rather a letter from someone who has a broken heart and wanted to break it to her. I'm still learning a lot about the band, but it just feels that way. I love her voice and songs. And I'm glad that she has people around her and a lot of fans who support her. The more I learn about her, the more I admire her. She is so strong and talented and also very funny and beautiful. It's good that Nightwish fans still have their band and we have Tarja. I've never listened to much rock, but she's so different. Her music and voice works like magic on me. I also recently discovered her classic performance of the song Pie Jesu. And WOW, I can't get enough of it. It's like hearing an angel sing.
Your comment made me shed a manly tear. I'm even a little jealous of you. How much magic you have discovered in last year and how much new magic you have yet to discover. I've been listening to this band and Tarja since late 90's and only music I never get tired of listening to to this day is Nightwish and Tarja. You are right, between lines in letter is broken heart of man who wrote a lot of love songs for Tarja.
@@alexr8817 Thanks a lot, but I don't know if I'll start listening to Nightwish. I heard one song with different singer and it's not my cup of tea. And I'm afraid to start their songs with Tarja, knowing how it will end between them. I'm pretty confused overall. I saw a new interviews with Tarja and she is one of the sweetest and most grateful artists. I deliberately watched an interview from the time when she was with the band and I don't see any bad behavior from her there. It seems to me as if the letter was written about someone completely different. I even heard that someone from the band apologized to her. So I don't understand why the situation around her is still going on. Maybe I just missed something. But more and more I think it's not a healthy fan base around the band. I love her stuff. ...And love songs for Tarja?...so, I guess I'm not mistaken, the letter really doesn't seem professional to me, but full of passion and not money.
@kotikunnas1291 Yeah, it's a big mistake that she walked away from a egomaniac who couldn't take care of her and started doing her music freely. It's a big mistake that she's happier now than she's ever been, while one member after another leaves the band and they stop touring. Their last two albums are the worst they've put out, while she far surpassed them with her last album. And that Finns don't lie? LOL. There is nothing left of Nightwish today. It's a huge difference when I see her performance and enthusiasm compared to their opulent but tired concerts. They are burnt out while she lives for her shows, fans and music. Obviously, crowded arenas do not necessarily lead to happiness. The letter is real, but everyone can write hundreds of such real letters full of half-truths.
@kotikunnas1291 I know Finns don't lie. Tarja, after being fired from the band, said at her press conference that Tuomas was in love with her and pursued her even though she was married. It's true - because Finns don't lie.
@@ArianaHana Don't be afraid to listen to Nightwish. It was a great time, most productive time in band's history. They recorded the most number of songs in those 9 years. No matter how it all ended up, they always gave 300% at concerts and in studio. Both official live shows are excellent, and band often sounds better live than in studio work. In first era Tuomas wrote largest number of love songs.
Overall I buy into the bands side of things. I really do think Tarja had become a diva , encouraged, or even driven, by her husband. Once was an epic point for her to leave the band. And,without Tarja’s departure there would have been no imaginaerum ( in my view the best NW album) and NO FLOOR. Even with other line up changes , it is the ‘phase three Nightwish’ with Floor that has made a real ‘band of brothers’.
well, the guys knew that Tarja wanted to leave the band and start a solo career but they agreed to make one more album with her but they treacherously published that letter and Tarja was hurt by the way they fired her. the boys said one thing but did another. Here is the interview that Tarja gave after the letter: ruclips.net/video/OYko9mxUJeY/видео.htmlsi=t8oNaEeCqjlF0bLK
I'm mostly on Tuomas's side here but I think to be complete you need to also check out Tarja's press conference about the letter: ruclips.net/video/ATDFinGZ8D8/видео.html Also, Tarja is still close friends with a lot of great performers (like Floor and Sharon from Within Temptation) so she can't be all bad. And obviously an event that dramatic will have caused her to do some self reflection ...
Toumas said it. “It’s a scenery of his soul”. That’s good for him, but not for someone who also has creative ambitions. You might want to really research how NW was started. It was supposed to be a one time project. Tarja was in the middle of her classical training when Toumas asked her to sing on a demo. She made it very clear she wanted to continue her studies, and even put them Off for years for the band. No, NW wasn’t everything to everyone in the band either. Emppu himself has said he felt just like a hired hand for many years. This letter is Toumas trying to ruin Tarja’s reputation before she has a chance to start her solo career. And, this was written by Toumas, not the band. Tarja is extremely close with her fans. That’s why they’ve followed her since her departure from NW. Toumas would have more credibility if he didn’t lie about Annette’s firing. But, Annette called him out and stopped them from doing a hit job documentary on her like they did Tarja. It’s so weird how they always have a documentary crew around when a band member gets fired. I think both parties are at fault and I find Toumas to be extremely manipulative. This is a revelation? They lost a lot of fans because the fans saw right through this.
@kotikunnas1291 It was signed by all of them but written by Toumas. Yea, because Marko was tired of the drama between Marcelo and Toumas. Emppu actually liked some of the stuff Marcelo did for the band. What do you think would have happened if one of them refused to sign the letter? I don’t think they had much of a choice.
It was not for nothing that Tuomas regretted publishing letter. It is silly to accuse someone of greed when you yourself are the same and just as interested in long tours that bring in more money. She didn't rehearse with guys for a simple reason, she didn't need to. She grasped new material very quickly. She recorded vocals for some of the songs not with the band in Finland, but while studying in Germany. She understood very well how to sing Tuomas' songs and as a result they recorded great albums. Of the five band members, only Tarja had balls. She did a very decent thing and didn't d jndtn pour shit on the band.
Tuomas is a coward who publicly humiliated the woman who helped him get to the top. Tarja also had her dreams, which she could not realize with Nightwish. Tuomas couldn't understand and almost ruined her future. The princess stopped being a toy in the hands of an egomaniac and became a queen, taking many fans' hearts with her.
There's a documentary called A Day Before Tomorrow that shows the few weeks before the final concert and when they gave this letter to Tarja. It shows how disconnected she was from the rest of the band. During the video they keep referencing "x" number of days until the show. That is the final concert. That concert was filmed and is the End of an Era concert people will tell you to checkout songs from. When you watch videos from that concert keep in mind everyone in the band except Tarja knew what was going to happen afterward. I think it was the following day they published the letter for everyone to read. Following this the fans attacked Tuomas and came after him for all of this with even the Prime Minister of Finland chiming in. Bye Bye Beautiful was directed at Tarja. Master Passion Greed was directed at Marcelo. Poet and Pendulum was how Tuomas felt about the fans response. Tuomas commits figurative suicide in the song's lyrics.
She was disconnected, but the same band. You can see how they keep pushing her to the background and not talking to her and she has no idea what is going on. And the fact that she had her own dressing room as a woman, I don't think is anything special. Things were already very bad between them then.
I do think its shady to publish the letter on Nightwish's public website for all to see (tuomas' wrongdoing) and that's how she finds out she's fired... but being a diva, thinking you are better than the band and her husband doing weird things is also not great (tarjas+husband's wrongdoing). But i can forgive both parties... Tarja and Tuomas for their behavior. I cant even imagine the crazy pressure and sudden fame of being in such a great band at such a young age. We are just human (nature, lol).
Tuomas was a coward who publicly humiliated the woman who helped bring Nightwish to the top. Tarja started as a classical singer, it was her dream since childhood and she wanted to continue it, because of Nightwish she couldn't. Tuomas and she had their dreams, but Tuomas couldn't understand why she wanted to leave them, that's why he almost destroyed her future. And the behavior of the diva? Any other evidence than Tuomas said and wrote? No one has ever claimed this about Tarja, except in the letter, which is full of half-lies just to suit Tuomas. And monkeys keep quoting this letter. Tarja as the lead singer needed more rest and not traveling in a smoky bus with guys partying 24/7. Just look at the documentary, how it looked there. And canceled concerts? The band booked a concert in Oslo behind her back on her day off. She canceled her plans and flew to the concert to sing. Only Marko apologized to her and now they are performing together again. In her departure, Tarja showed more character and courage than the rest of the band put together, who could only manage intrique against her. Why don't you ask Tuomas how he took care of her as a "friend" when she was almost raped during the concert? Basically, he drove Tarja into the arms of her future husband, whom she had only known for 9 days. At that time, he was very happy that Tarja accepted him as her manager, because he himself admitted that they forgot her needs, as the only woman in the band.
This is why the videos from an end of a era concert are so amazing. The band was performing knowing that Tarja was being fired after the concert. They could have just gone through the motions but instead gave it their all for the fans.
yes exactly! there's a few moments where you can totally feel the tension in the air (and band) though Tarja acts like she's oblivious to it all, which I thought was pretty thick of her
@@brennieb78 That's because she didn't know. If you check the wiki page for Nightwish, you'll see that Tarja responded to the letter, and how she recieved it. Tarja says that Tuomas gave her the letter after the End of an Era DVD concert.
Tuomas was truly heartbroken doing this, and it sent him into a depression. In this depression he wrote The Poet and the Pendulum. Many of the fans turned on Tuomas, and even the prime minister of Finland spoke up on the dismissal. It was huge there, and Tuomas and Tarja had grown up in the same small town of Kitee, Finland and knew each other from childhood. Tuomas' mother even taught Tarja piano as a small child.
makes me wonder, if they were such childhood friends why they couldn't just be direct and honest with each other... :/
The story starts earlier. 2000 Nightwish tours with Sinergy. The mood in the band is bad and Tuomas names Syergy's boss Kimberley Goss two culprits: One is bassist Sami Vänskä, who has become an alcoholic and is drunken on stage. Marko is Sinergy's bass player and apes him during the concert. On the other hand it is Tarja. She tells interviews that she is only a temporary member of Nightwish and her "opera diva" attitude conflicts with the band's "rock star" attitude.
In 2001 Tuomas pushed Sami out of the band and poached Marko from Sinergy. Kimberley is angry and publishes the conversation. Tuomas denies everything and Tarja goes to Germany to study classical art singing. That feels good for her, but Tuomas wants more pop in the music and not more classical. After that they record two more LPs, but the relationship is getting worse and the breakup rumors are getting louder. In 2005 they traveled separately to the concerts and only met on stage. She had already prepared her solo career at this point and wanted a pause from Nightwish. The timing of the termination may have come as a surprise to Tarja, but not the termination itself.
And while we're at it, the final candidates for Tarjas follow:
NIGHTWISH - Lead Vocalist Candidates in 2006
You want to know how Tarja was thinking about Tuomas in relation to all that happened? She wrote the song "Enough" a few years later....:
[2009 re-release bonus track]
Ego selfish prima donna
Dancing in your poisoned cage
Thinking that your conscience's clearer
If you drink your dreams away
Feed your anger to the devil
In yourself built wishing well
Take a swim in muddy waters
All the dirt will leave a trail
Had enough symphonies of sorrow
Be so brave and weep me away
Masterpiece of treachery
Built a wall and made me crumble
Just because I am in love
Don't you lie, that you kept all
Those are toys that you have got
Smash the mirror of the version
Keep the dagger that you made
Mirror, mirror, is there someone
Who can make your day today
Had enough symphonies of sorrow
Be so brave and weep me away
Had enough symphonies of sorrow
Be so brave and weep me away
Masterpiece of treachery
You might also like
The Seer
Tarja
Calling Grace
Tarja
Paradise (What About Us?)
Within Temptation
Kept my thoughts buried in a box
When it's shut, I still kept it locked
You draw a play written with my blood
Went ahead just to feed the lot
Had enough symphonies of sorrow
Be so brave and weep me away
Had enough symphonies of agony
Be so brave and weep me away
Masterpiece of treachery
Hi, thanks so much for writing about the song Enough here. WoW. Is it true that they treated her badly because she was in love, how she sings? A lot of people talk about how Tarja is bad. But I don't understand why. I have seen her interviews and her live streams and she is very nice. I'm so confused by all of this. It feels like people are talking about two different people. Has anyone ever said anything bad about Tarja? I mean, somewhere other than just the letter? That letter seems to me to have been written very impulsively. Like when I'm angry and say something that I later regret. Maybe it's familiar stuff, but I don't really care about the band, I'm just interested as part of Tarja's history.
Finn/American dual. First heard when I was 8 via bros. Saw End of Era at 16. Here is a 2002 interview. It explains a lot that people get wrong. T&T are a looong story. But she isnt a diva.He isn’t a bad guy either. It was time. She as she says isnt a rock girl. The guys partied. She didnt. She’d been studying in Germany for yrs. NP. It’s true Tuomas didn’t like her husband bc he was protective and seen as intrusive. But partly business tension and party personal:Tarja had been vic of attempted sexual assault on stage in Mexico and Marcello stopped it.
In the end Tarja was Tuomas muse thru his romantic tolkein peter pan disney operatic vision. He was heading more commercial and more realistic and metal. It was time. It just was a) bad timing when and b) bad method how and c) typical Tuomas self pity reasons. Same with Sami. His oldest friend. Had someone else dump him. And later with Annette. A genius with no so good people skills.
m.ruclips.net/video/gt0haAiGbHo/видео.html&pp=ygUWdHVvbWFzIHRhcmphIGludGVydmlldw%3D%3D
there was one side of the truth in the letter, the band's. Then there is Tarja's truth, which does not appear here as Tarja's message. then there are the many different people's own truths and opinions. there are two great sayings: It takes two or more people to argue, it's bad to argue alone. another saying; there are three sides to the matter, yours, mine and his/hers
By the way, "dirty laundry should always be washed only at home and never elsewhere"
Side note, but an interesting one perhaps. Here's what Floor said abt Tarja's manager/husband Marcelo Cabuli. Floor tells the interviewer abt the only project she ever regretted. It was produced by one Beto Vazquez. Then the interviewer says:
I: "I asked about it, becauze Beto Vazquez himself has also written an open letter about the Nightwish issue, in which he defends Tarja. He says that for his project she earned just enough to get herself a pair of shoes"
Floor: "But then Beto Vazques has to have the honesty to tell that his producer is Tarja's husband."
I: "Ah I see!"
Floor: "Yeah, so that guy indeed. Disgusting bloke. We always asked ourselves why Tarja hung out with him."
I: "Nightwish as well.."
Floor: "Haha, yes. Any more questions? Otherwise, I can tell you that we're starting our European tour at the end of January. We play in the Netherlands, Belgium [etc..]"
In the same interview (Jan, 2006), Floor says that the open letter was a brave decision and: "I think that NW would've really been torn to pieces if Tarja had stayed. From that pov it's a good decision, but also unfortunate it had to be done."
Tarja ultimately didn't want to stay with the band either, so it wouldn't have been torn to pieces either way
@@kersa6574 Can't blame her tbh (considering the infamous Guadalajara 2000 incident that got Cabuli into the picture). After watching the End Of Innocence "documentary", I'm actually surprised she stayed that long.
@@BrendonChase_2015 "I'm actually surprised she stayed that long."
I think we can all learn from this that when others do the hard work and the ticket says "80k per night", you suddenly feel so motivated. At least for a while.
Honestly kinda shocked at Floor's statements. It's one thing to think it but another to say these things about another band's business and a colleagues' personal relationships to the PRESS. I thought she was kinder, not one for gossip
@@ValtteL Haha yep, that's truly the end of innocence innit?
There are usually always the same myths in the comments, so let's shoot them down:
Tuomas: “After the [Tarja] split, the next few months were really, really dark. The things that really saved me from doing anything silly were my family, my close friends and the film The Village by M. Night Shyamalan. I watched it twice a day for weeks. That film made all the difference. Just the idea of this community living in peace in the middle of the wood, secluded from the world. Plus it has the best soundtrack ever written. It just filled me with comfort and hope. I was never suicidal, it wasn’t even close, but I was in a really dark place. It was the worst period of my life. Call it depression, but not suicidal. I want to make that clear.”
Tuomas: “I've had the feeling twice that we are ending the band. First in 2001, when we fired our first bass player (Sami Vänskä), the second time when Marko (Hietala) left. But when Tarja (Turunen) left or when Anette (Olzon) left, I never got the feeling that this is the end. Vice versa. Perseverance reared its head: 'We have to get over this and show the world'."
Marcelo did not want her to perform in the USA, it was not profitable enough because of the small venues in the USA. NW wants to reach all fans, they are not money driven. Their tickets are per example way cheaper than Metallica etc. Marcelo did not want her to have contact and pushed her to start a solo cariere. But it was as a sword of damacolus hanging above NW and Tuomas could not write music anymore. He demanded a private tour bus for Tarja and her not to rehearse anymore with NW. For a sensitive person as Tuomas and NW who live for the music it was a slap in the face. They lost a lot of so called friends and fans and the media went bazurk.
The letter is written by the whole band. Marko was TOTALLY done with Marcelo and Tarja too. He set Tarja up against NW and lied to her and to NW. An evil MF I can say.
So this is 1 side of the story, but always remember there are 2 sides to every story and somewhere in the middle is the truth
Very true. You must listen to both sides
Yea but that was decision take by 4 of them,not only by Tuomas
@@yerviniansamvel still doesn't paint the whole picture. Marko was in his own battle with depression and booze and let's face it Tuomas was drinking pretty heavily as well. Tarja's Husband was also pushing buttons. No one knows exactly what went down because we were not there. You can not put blame on 1 person
Well, it is a fact that Marcelo did not want her to perform with NW in the USA, too few fans so not enough money. Sad he had a great influence on Tarja.
@@monicacarolina6480No, they wanted to perform at bigger venues. Nothing wrong with that. That was when they actually had their music played on MTV and the radio in the US. Now look at them. Still barely making it in America. The majority of people that even go to their shows know them from reaction videos. Without RUclips, they would still be doing the same venues. I mean, they’re still not doing that big of venues these days still.
I heard about this letter when I was researching the band (I am a new member of the Nightwish army 🙂). Now I know the exact content...... It's not up to me to have an opinion about it, as I don't know the circumstances back then. We all know in emotion you feel and see things in a different way. What is right or wrong only the people involved will know. As some say in the comments, it's been so long ago, why bring this up again. An old Dutch saying comes in mind: "oude koeien niet uit de sloot halen". I guess in English it's something like "don't dig up old bones".
I was in the last show, and next day this happened...
Still one of the saddest moments of my life...
But I still don't like how the band did this...
Put all the blame on Tarja in public without giving her a chance to defend herself and tell her side of the story...
Band boys were always drinking and partying all the time, and believe me, i've seen those guys many times doing that, and Tarja couldnt, because of singing voice, so i think this was one of the reasons why they drift a part...
They didn't really do anything together except shows and albums...
Boys were doing they stuff and Tarja doing hers...
I dont know why this needs to be a reaction, it was painful enough for everybody when it happened. That being said, they all screwed up here, Tarja and the guys. Didn't need to be made this public though, that was in bad Taste. I'm just glad they've all made their peace with it. Tarja sending Tuomas her condolences when his father died and Marko and Tarja singing together again.
You can;t say they all screwed up. I truly think NW and Tarja gor screwed big time by Marcelo and HEY if he wants to react on it, let him. You can ignore it and move on right?
To understand the dynamics within NW and a lot of songs IT IS important. And Marko admitted in an interview 6 moths ago he needed to think about sharing the stage. Happy he did it.
@@monicacarolina6480 Marko was fed up because of the music industry setting this up, not because he didn't feel comfortable performing with Tarja, because Tarja and he already performed together years ago, 2017 I believe. This summer wasnt the first time they met after the split and sang together again.
And yes, they all screwed up during those years, they all should and could have communicated their needs and wishes better, and handled the situation more maturely. But they were young and I believe they grew and learned as people and would do a lot better now. It's obvious they are all nice people at their core. Tarja is still very loved among her peers.
Surely Marcello changed Tarja, and made her go more for the money in everything, but Tarja was kind of diva before this, by not rehearse, and only come to studio to record, and lot of other stuff, now im not sure i think this open letter should have been open, as its very personal stuff written in it, but in the other hand it really gave the fans insight in this matter, and i think the band really wanted that, so yes im a bit split on the fact that it is open.
Tarja also was planning to go solo at some point anyway, she didnt hide that fact, maybe some words are a bit harsh idk, but the decision to kick Tarja, was right im sure, as she would go solo soon anyway, and because of the situation in general..
Nightwish is Tuomas soul, and he as well as the other band members could not see this lack of dedication for the band, as well as Marcello pulling the strings of Tarja..
with that said i still think the Tarja era of NW is great, and Tarja did great music.. she is also still the NW front singer with most albums..
Also im a fan of Tarja´s solo music today, she did a good solo carrer afterwards, and make brilliant music..
Okay. So again, only the view of one side and things in the letter taken out of context.. A twenty-year-old letter that Tuomas also regrets and Marko apologized to Tarja a few years ago. Tarja went through hell too, not just Tuomas. And this is still so painful for many fans.
only Tarja fans...
@@zbygniewprlwytzkofsky6614 Back then for Nightwish fans. They were mutual fans. Today I'm mainly a fan of Tarja and her music, but I also listen to the new NW albums, but I don't follow them much as a band anymore, even though I have a personal connection to a few songs.
And lots of NW fans love all eras.
@kotikunnas1291 Yes, I'm a Tarja fan, but I used to be a Nightwish fan too. Does that exclude being Tarja's and a NW fan at the same time?
Okee. you read the open letter and so came Annette and then came the karma ,Floor Janssen came to the band and see what happened the years after that and now they still stare and grow and grow ,Floor they sit like family like brothers go before the fire for each other, so much feeling there is now after more than 10 years of Floor and Nigthwisch., more successful than ever, bigger than ever, sold-out venues all over the world whether they do 3 or 5 shows, always sold-out venues, and by now you know how sensitive and the love towards the band is mutual respect, the balance is perfect now, okay Marco left the band but not for THE BAND, other things played there mme they are good friends together and the drummer Jukka is still with the band. Karma my friend Karma❤❤❤
The backlash was awful for airing the dirty laundry, but it was crucial to get their side out there because they knew how Marcello worked and as her manager he would have tried to crucify them with B.S. & capitalize off of her being dismissed.
He got to anyway as everyone got involved- even the leader of their country.
It was bad.
Tuomas was so depressed that he did not know even after 6 months if they were done.
He was suicidal.
Thankfully, he wrote Poet & the Pendulum; committing musical suicide and getting out his stages of grief in song.
"Tuomas was so depressed that he did not know even after 6 months if they were done.
He was suicidal. "
Tuomas: “After the [Tarja] split, the next few months were really, really dark. The things that really saved me from doing anything silly were my family, my close friends and the film The Village by M. Night Shyamalan. I watched it twice a day for weeks. That film made all the difference. Just the idea of this community living in peace in the middle of the wood, secluded from the world. Plus it has the best soundtrack ever written. It just filled me with comfort and hope. I was never suicidal, it wasn’t even close, but I was in a really dark place. It was the worst period of my life. Call it depression, but not suicidal. I want to make that clear.”
Tuomas: “I've had the feeling twice that we are ending the band. First in 2001, when we fired our first bass player (Sami Vänskä), the second time when Marko (Hietala) left. But when Tarja (Turunen) left or when Anette (Olzon) left, I never got the feeling that this is the end. Vice versa. Perseverance reared its head: 'We have to get over this and show the world'."
@ValtteL regarding my statements, they were based on interviews.
I either watched or read (cannot remember which) an interview by Tuomas a few years after the split where he said that whether or not Nightwish was going to continue was still not decided six months after, and he was in a deep depression.
Then he said that he was in the wilderness with all the beauty around him when he finally thought they would carry on.
In another interview regarding The Poet & The Pendulum, he said he was having suicidal thoughts when he was deeply depressed but would not do that, so he wrote a musical suicide in song.
Your interview is recent as he is talking about Marko leaving as well, so I think it is retrospective, and his own perceptions & analysis of how he was feeling has changed in his mind over time.
@@majbrat "Your interview is recent as he is talking about Marko leaving as well, so I think it is retrospective, and his own perceptions & analysis of how he was feeling has changed in his mind over time."
Ending the band interview clip is from 2021 obviously but the Tarja split part is from 2007. There are their book (2006), Maan Mainiot document, countless interviews where Tuomas is very consistent, like he always is.
Ending the band part doesn't make any sense at all - they fired Tarja because they wanted to continue.
"he did not know even after 6 months if they were done"
Like example inside in that timeline they were looking for a new drum technician, helping hand for Jukka and they contacted Kai.
If all that was said in the letter was correct it was fair enough to part company with her but if it was not true hmmmm it may have been an act to part ways and stain her reputation with fans
Also the second singer was fired under strange circumstances after becoming pregnant
I discovered Tarja last year thanks to her beautifully dark Christmas song.
I learned about the letter only recently. I'm only now learning about her history and former band and I feel so sorry for her. I think they treated her cruelly. I don't believe everything that is written in the letter. It was written by one angry person and I think there is a lot of pain and there is a real reason written between the lines that is completely different. This is not a letter to get someone fired, but rather a letter from someone who has a broken heart and wanted to break it to her. I'm still learning a lot about the band, but it just feels that way.
I love her voice and songs. And I'm glad that she has people around her and a lot of fans who support her. The more I learn about her, the more I admire her. She is so strong and talented and also very funny and beautiful. It's good that Nightwish fans still have their band and we have Tarja. I've never listened to much rock, but she's so different. Her music and voice works like magic on me. I also recently discovered her classic performance of the song Pie Jesu. And WOW, I can't get enough of it. It's like hearing an angel sing.
Your comment made me shed a manly tear. I'm even a little jealous of you. How much magic you have discovered in last year and how much new magic you have yet to discover. I've been listening to this band and Tarja since late 90's and only music I never get tired of listening to to this day is Nightwish and Tarja. You are right, between lines in letter is broken heart of man who wrote a lot of love songs for Tarja.
@@alexr8817 Thanks a lot, but I don't know if I'll start listening to Nightwish. I heard one song with different singer and it's not my cup of tea. And I'm afraid to start their songs with Tarja, knowing how it will end between them. I'm pretty confused overall. I saw a new interviews with Tarja and she is one of the sweetest and most grateful artists. I deliberately watched an interview from the time when she was with the band and I don't see any bad behavior from her there. It seems to me as if the letter was written about someone completely different. I even heard that someone from the band apologized to her. So I don't understand why the situation around her is still going on. Maybe I just missed something. But more and more I think it's not a healthy fan base around the band. I love her stuff.
...And love songs for Tarja?...so, I guess I'm not mistaken, the letter really doesn't seem professional to me, but full of passion and not money.
@kotikunnas1291 Yeah, it's a big mistake that she walked away from a egomaniac who couldn't take care of her and started doing her music freely. It's a big mistake that she's happier now than she's ever been, while one member after another leaves the band and they stop touring. Their last two albums are the worst they've put out, while she far surpassed them with her last album. And that Finns don't lie? LOL.
There is nothing left of Nightwish today. It's a huge difference when I see her performance and enthusiasm compared to their opulent but tired concerts. They are burnt out while she lives for her shows, fans and music. Obviously, crowded arenas do not necessarily lead to happiness.
The letter is real, but everyone can write hundreds of such real letters full of half-truths.
@kotikunnas1291 I know Finns don't lie. Tarja, after being fired from the band, said at her press conference that Tuomas was in love with her and pursued her even though she was married. It's true - because Finns don't lie.
@@ArianaHana Don't be afraid to listen to Nightwish. It was a great time, most productive time in band's history. They recorded the most number of songs in those 9 years. No matter how it all ended up, they always gave 300% at concerts and in studio. Both official live shows are excellent, and band often sounds better live than in studio work. In first era Tuomas wrote largest number of love songs.
Overall I buy into the bands side of things. I really do think Tarja had become a diva , encouraged, or even driven, by her husband. Once was an epic point for her to leave the band. And,without Tarja’s departure there would have been no imaginaerum ( in my view the best NW album) and NO FLOOR. Even with other line up changes , it is the ‘phase three Nightwish’ with Floor that has made a real ‘band of brothers’.
well, the guys knew that Tarja wanted to leave the band and start a solo career but they agreed to make one more album with her but they treacherously published that letter and Tarja was hurt by the way they fired her. the boys said one thing but did another. Here is the interview that Tarja gave after the letter: ruclips.net/video/OYko9mxUJeY/видео.htmlsi=t8oNaEeCqjlF0bLK
I'm mostly on Tuomas's side here but I think to be complete you need to also check out Tarja's press conference about the letter: ruclips.net/video/ATDFinGZ8D8/видео.html
Also, Tarja is still close friends with a lot of great performers (like Floor and Sharon from Within Temptation) so she can't be all bad. And obviously an event that dramatic will have caused her to do some self reflection ...
Toumas said it. “It’s a scenery of his soul”. That’s good for him, but not for someone who also has creative ambitions. You might want to really research how NW was started. It was supposed to be a one time project. Tarja was in the middle of her classical training when Toumas asked her to sing on a demo. She made it very clear she wanted to continue her studies, and even put them
Off for years for the band. No, NW wasn’t everything to everyone in the band either. Emppu himself has said he felt just like a hired hand for many years. This letter is Toumas trying to ruin Tarja’s reputation before she has a chance to start her solo career. And, this was written by Toumas, not the band. Tarja is extremely close with her fans. That’s why they’ve followed her since her departure from NW. Toumas would have more credibility if he didn’t lie about Annette’s firing. But, Annette called him out and stopped them from doing a hit job documentary on her like they did Tarja. It’s so weird how they always have a documentary crew around when a band member gets fired. I think both parties are at fault and I find Toumas to be extremely manipulative. This is a revelation? They lost a lot of fans because the fans saw right through this.
@kotikunnas1291 It was signed by all of them but written by Toumas. Yea, because Marko was tired of the drama between Marcelo and Toumas. Emppu actually liked some of the stuff Marcelo did for the band. What do you think would have happened if one of them refused to sign the letter? I don’t think they had much of a choice.
It was not for nothing that Tuomas regretted publishing letter. It is silly to accuse someone of greed when you yourself are the same and just as interested in long tours that bring in more money. She didn't rehearse with guys for a simple reason, she didn't need to. She grasped new material very quickly. She recorded vocals for some of the songs not with the band in Finland, but while studying in Germany. She understood very well how to sing Tuomas' songs and as a result they recorded great albums. Of the five band members, only Tarja had balls. She did a very decent thing and didn't d jndtn pour shit on the band.
Tuomas is a coward who publicly humiliated the woman who helped him get to the top. Tarja also had her dreams, which she could not realize with Nightwish. Tuomas couldn't understand and almost ruined her future. The princess stopped being a toy in the hands of an egomaniac and became a queen, taking many fans' hearts with her.
There's a documentary called A Day Before Tomorrow that shows the few weeks before the final concert and when they gave this letter to Tarja. It shows how disconnected she was from the rest of the band.
During the video they keep referencing "x" number of days until the show. That is the final concert. That concert was filmed and is the End of an Era concert people will tell you to checkout songs from. When you watch videos from that concert keep in mind everyone in the band except Tarja knew what was going to happen afterward. I think it was the following day they published the letter for everyone to read. Following this the fans attacked Tuomas and came after him for all of this with even the Prime Minister of Finland chiming in. Bye Bye Beautiful was directed at Tarja. Master Passion Greed was directed at Marcelo. Poet and Pendulum was how Tuomas felt about the fans response. Tuomas commits figurative suicide in the song's lyrics.
She was disconnected, but the same band. You can see how they keep pushing her to the background and not talking to her and she has no idea what is going on. And the fact that she had her own dressing room as a woman, I don't think is anything special. Things were already very bad between them then.
I do think its shady to publish the letter on Nightwish's public website for all to see (tuomas' wrongdoing) and that's how she finds out she's fired... but being a diva, thinking you are better than the band and her husband doing weird things is also not great (tarjas+husband's wrongdoing). But i can forgive both parties... Tarja and Tuomas for their behavior. I cant even imagine the crazy pressure and sudden fame of being in such a great band at such a young age. We are just human (nature, lol).
Indeed !!!!! Lies about TARJA get me heated too !!!!!!!!!!!!
Tuomas was a coward who publicly humiliated the woman who helped bring Nightwish to the top. Tarja started as a classical singer, it was her dream since childhood and she wanted to continue it, because of Nightwish she couldn't. Tuomas and she had their dreams, but Tuomas couldn't understand why she wanted to leave them, that's why he almost destroyed her future. And the behavior of the diva? Any other evidence than Tuomas said and wrote? No one has ever claimed this about Tarja, except in the letter, which is full of half-lies just to suit Tuomas. And monkeys keep quoting this letter. Tarja as the lead singer needed more rest and not traveling in a smoky bus with guys partying 24/7. Just look at the documentary, how it looked there. And canceled concerts? The band booked a concert in Oslo behind her back on her day off. She canceled her plans and flew to the concert to sing. Only Marko apologized to her and now they are performing together again.
In her departure, Tarja showed more character and courage than the rest of the band put together, who could only manage intrique against her. Why don't you ask Tuomas how he took care of her as a "friend" when she was almost raped during the concert? Basically, he drove Tarja into the arms of her future husband, whom she had only known for 9 days. At that time, he was very happy that Tarja accepted him as her manager, because he himself admitted that they forgot her needs, as the only woman in the band.
All hale the REAL TRUE QUEEN 👑 of NIGHTWISH!!!, the very beautiful looking and very unique voice of the enchanting TARJA!!!😀👍👍🤘