Watch to the end to see the most nail-biting arrival I have ever experienced! For a beginner's guide to train travel in Britain see www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-britain.htm
@@golledgestravels326 After about Milton Keynes I would have pulled the communication cord and threw Geoff off. Talk about a non-stop performance. He's hardly geared up for the quiet coach! What's the difference between Geoff Marshall and the M25? You can turn off the M25.
@@seat61 It never entered service due to the money supply being cut, ironic that the patents for that train were snapped up very quickly though. Never mind it is just a problematic train right?
Modern British Railways are cutting age, we still have the Class 150\0 units in frontline service dating from 1984. Also some Class 317 units that are even older still in regular use despite increased subsidiary from the poor taxpayer. If you like old trains with new livery application then Britain is the place to be.
Considering the huge investment and increased public funding since the BR days incredible that the railway still runs at the BR standard of 125mph. Quite embarrassing a cash strapped BR with very limited resources managed to build a train from scratch (not buy from abroad) still holds the record.
To be fair... they built it and it went really fast, but it was NOT reliable in any way. It was tested for like a 10th of the amount of miles that the original TGV was.
@@Jobother the APT-P project was not finished when the funding plug was pulled. Serious work for the APT-S the production version still was some distance away. It was interesting though that the ATP project patents were snapped up and purchased very quickly and shipped abroad. Apart from Eurostar the APT as far as I am aware is the most powerful train to run in the country
125mph is the fastest you can run and still use lineside signals. Faster than that, you need in-cab signaling - which means a big investment in trains and track alike. The West Coast Main Line runs *much* quicker than BR days, thanks to the upgrades.
This is a British legend. Italy's first tilting train preceded the APT, entering commercial service in 1976. When the APT program was stopped, its technology was offered for sale. Neither Sweden's ABB (X2000) nor Fiat Ferroviaria were interested in licensing it. You may want to read David Clough's excellent book: "APT, the untold story".
I am so happy that we can travel again. I live in Belfast and can’t wait to catch a ferry to Liverpool and then take a train to elsewhere in England/Scotland
if the Pendolino can get within 21 seconds of beating a speeding APT, and the Pendolino is following the speed limit, just imagine what could be done with a speeding Pendolino.
Then imagine what the APT-P (prototype) could achieve with all of the line upgrades that have been done since the 80s. All of the time the Pendolino made up was due to the line upgrades rather than the performance of the train.
Great attempt. And when you think if you fly to Glasgow it really is still around 3hr by the time you get to the airport get through security get bag in the hold. Then the short flight then wait for your bag to come of the plane then make your way in to Glasgow by bus/taxi they is not a lot. And the biggest bonus with train is no stress.
GIven the APT was able to break speed limits and the Pendolino nearly matched the old timing, there must be an improvement somewhere in the infrastructure. So how fast could the APT do it today if it was allowed to break speed limits! The APT is a monument to modern rail engineering.
Well yes there are numerou curves that have been eased and junctions that have been modernised and improved since the 1980s that allow the average speed over the line to be increased, along with much quadrupling of track that was previously double track, to increase capacity.
For all the derision it got, a lot of people don't realise the APT is STILL the overall speed record holder for this route, and also the fastest British built train overall (162.2mph). Perhaps if, in 1984, people had realised we still wouldn't be able to better that performance nearly 4 decades later, it might have gotten a little more respect and the press might not have stuck the knife in quite so much, effectively killing it off. Though addmittedly, bashing BR was something of a national sport at that time!
Realistically, the reason it has yet to be bested is absolutely nothing to do with the train itself, and everything to do with the abysmal attitude the government has had when it comes to modernizing any rail networks North of London. That Pendolino could easily have trashed the APT if it was allowed to run at it's top speed of 140mph - something it has never done in service due to the fact that the lines it runs on don't support the signalling technology required to manage trains at higher speeds.
@@adhillA97 Oh, yes I wasn't implying that the Pendolino wasn't technically capable of breaking the record - I'm sure it is, and on the right day, probably will. I was just highlighting how remarkable the APTs record was at the time, and how it's amazing performance sadly wasn't enough to save it from all the bad press it got. That said, BOTH trains could probably post faster times in an ideal world (the APT could hit 155mph with ease). The limiting factor always was, and still is, the line infrastructure, which isn't significantly more advanced now than it was back in the late 60's... Roll on HS2! haha
You are mixing two issues. The reason the record still stand is signaling. The West Coast Mainline modernization planned by private owners (Railtrack) without rail engineering experience envisioned 140 mph trains. The moving block technology they had in mind did not exist and they went bankrupt. UK government had to step in to nationalise the tracks and somewhat finish the work for 9 billion pounds. As for the trains, I don't know about the bad press or BR bashing, but the APT development was shambolic. For some unfathomable reason, BR engineers thought that the TGV setting, one high tension cable connecting both motrices to a single pantograph, was dangerous. They lost years trying to find another solution, missing deadline after deadline. Don't take my word, read the book "APT, the untold story" by Brian Clough.
@@alaindumas1824 The signalling system used today is the same as it was back then. Yes, the APT was allowed to exceed the speed limit for its special run, but equally the WCML has had many improvements to the track layout since then - Easing of various curves, major upgrading of junctions and station approaches, quadrupling of tracks along some sections etc. allowing the average speed over the line to be raised, benefitting the Pendolino. Apart from that TSO through Carstairs, I'd say it was a reasonably fair comparion run-for-run. Without that the Pendo probably would have broken the record, just. I'm not denying the Pendo is a better train overall than the APT. Nor am I denying the many reliability and refinement issues with the APT (it was a prototype after all). And BR effectively shot themselves in the foot by trying to launch it before it was ready (due to external pressure to do so). But it was none of those things that caused the project to be shelved in the end. The press nicknamed it the APT "accident prone train" and claimed the tilt gave passengers travel sickness (most people who travelled on it did not suffer this) and generally loved to report on anything negative they could find, no matter how dubious (as they still do today). By the time the reliability issue had been worked out circa 1984/5 when the record was set, the train was already seen as something of a joke in the public eye and not something BR could effectively market and charge a premium for. The project was abandoned soon after.
London to Glasgow is (555km) takes over 3 hrs none stop. A failed attempt to break the record, with a max speed of 125mph. UK lagging behind Spain in railway journey time's is a concern, when Britian were the pioneers of rail infrastructure. Over 30% or railways in Britian are electrified which is one of the lowest percentage rates in Europe.
Congratulations for your first video where you are talking and showing your face. I am very proud of you Mark. Keep up the fabulous work of your train vlogs. I also like how you are verbally explaining. It seems like you are an expert at trains.
Can't believe they couldn't break the record, with newer trains and an upgraded line! Ditto when GWR couldn't beat a Paddington - Reading time set by a HS125 set 40 years ago with a new (electric) Azuma set! One wonders where the billions Network Rail throw at parts of the network go!
Different game now, BR would do it on the quiet during periods of next to no traffic - Remember the Class 91 was let loose and did 162mph. If they ever want a class opening for HS2 they should allow the LSL midland pullman a fast run up there - see what those big VP185s can do when turned up a touch (during stress testing they were pushed up to about 3000hp)
@@leonblittle226 Commissioning tests always test them beyond top design speed. The Pendolino was pushed to its max at some point, though it was only able to record something slightly over 140mph due to gearing.
@@GDGRailway47712 I remember bringing Dunedin off Edge Hill depot back in 82 for a service to Newcastle. In those days some of the push/pulls were overhauled at Crewe, and they worked back up north on a Trans Pennine job, usually the first Newcastle service ex Lime Street.. 704 was outshopped in the new BR large logo and looked immaculate. What a pity she was scrapped many years ago :-(
@@leonblittle226 there are twice as many trains running on the network now as there were 40 years ago (early 80's). This is why it's much more difficult to set 'speed records'. Demand for train travel is so much more now than it was back then (despite a pandemic for more than a year). This is also why they're building HS2 - to enable the faster trains to use the new HS lines.....giving more capacity on existing lines for stopping services and semi fast services. This means it''ll be easier to do speed records in the future, as they will most likely be done on these new HS lines. Existing lines are just too busy, and the disruption caused by cancelling half a days worth of trains on them, too massive...not to mention expensive. It's easy when the rail operator is state owned. But when they are private companies, they lose alot of money when these record attempts are carried out - through cancellation or delay to alot of trains. France can do record attempts more easily as their rail operator is state owned and they have super straight HS lines on which to do them. We don't have any of this....yet.
I would say blame it on the slow speed restriction through Carstairs. Such a shame. I hope the folks at Avanti Railway would consider making another run at the record sometime in the future.
As someone who has travelled on the Euston to Glasgow route several times, a few seconds missed from the record is nothing, I wish there were more through services that would cut the number of stopping stations, it's the stopping that slows the whole journey down.
I agree. I used to commute regularly between Glasgow and various points south, including London Euston. Going north, from Wigan up to Carlisle it's more or less a commuter train with people hopping on and off all along the way. I still prefer the train to flying though, especially when Virgin had the franchise. Okay it took about four and a half hours, maybe more what with the stopping and starting, but the catering in first class was good.
Happy to see you back after so many months... Well happy to see a fast service between London and Scotland. Usually it takes a similar time travelling via train from London to Edinburgh and to board a flight, fly to Edinburgh/Glasgow and checkout. Costs almost the same as well.
Mark, great to see you back on line, hope to see more of your excellent videos beautiful scenery, and it appears to be a smooth ride, but sad that there has been no significant improvement since the original run 37 years ago!
On the contrary, the line has been upgraded and a London-Glasgow every 2 hours taking 5h10 has become an hourly London-Glasgow taking 4h20. The record was set by an APT prototype which was so problem-prone it never entered squadron service, and which was allowed to do 140mph. We had to stick to the speed limit, but could have still beaten the record if either that 90-second TSR hadn't been there, or we'd made half a minute up on the booked sectional times as it had been thought we could.
Gareth Dennis railway worker did a video about why we need hs2 and the fact is hs2 will double the long distance train service capacity even if all long distance train when on hs2 instead ECML, MML and WCML.
@@danensis imagine the road network without motorways. That is what we have on the railways. Lines that have to do too much. Best way to increase their capacity is to move the most demanding traffic onto its own line. The business case for HS2 starts with the capacity benefits but you will never hear the media say this. Speed is something we are able to do with a new dedicated line and worth doing.
There's something deeply satisfying about being on a long train journey through the countryside especially when there are no stops and no new passengers to disturb you. By the way Berkhamsted has no 'p'. It's a common misspelling.
@@hairyairey Italy had tilting years trains before the APT. BR tried to sell its technology when they gave up, but no one was interested. Fiat's Pendolinos and ABB X 2000 were homegrown.
@@alaindumas1824 they did indeed however Fiat bought the patents from BR and improved on the technology. BR's design at that stage was ahead of Fiat's research.
Language was never my strong points at shool!?🤪 more of a practical subject person...like escape and evade teacher....bunking off ....heavy petting behind bike sheds etc!
Allowing for the 90 seconds speed restriction, I recon you might certainly have beaten the old record if only by 20 - 30 seconds at least! Great to see the attempt being made.🙂👍
125mph limit! And on a line as long as that…Many of our European neighbours regularly top 200mph operationally. Such a shame how far we’ve fallen behind. Shame this run wasn’t the one either. In my opinion if the current record was allowed a little headroom this should have had the same treatment :(
Remember, most of this is on regular, non high speed track. Non improved. Segregated, specially designed, and maintained track could handle speeds of 320km/h, but not regular track.
Ah, well. To get that close without breaking speed limits shows that it can be done, however. There were surely sections where that train could have safely edged up to 135 mph... Beautiful video!
Shame you didn't beat the time, but it was still a great video. Watching the UK countryside roll by was really relaxing. Looking forward to traveling over there again, hopefully in the not-too-distant future!
I was on the southbound Pendo a few years ago that got the record in that direction. Definitely a memorable ride - fast acceleration and braking was the key, I seen to remember. I still wish they'd put the proper 140mph signalling in that they planned.
The first Pendolino prototype, the ETR Y 0160 ran in 1969. Commercial service started in 1976 with the ETR 401. BR tried to sell its technology when the APT program was scrapped in the 1980s. They were no takers. Don't take my word, read Brian Clough's book "APT, the untold story".
We do not need your ICE train in the UK running at 190mph plus, we are happy with 125mph services, we are also very proud of the 35 year old Sprinter services that run at the very fast and world leading 75mph...
Considering the West Coast Mainline was supposed to have been upgraded and the APT did it with older technology, signalling and probably a train which was prone to breakdown, this doesn’t look good for the modern railways of Britain. If they were allowed to exceed track limits then I reckon they would have done it. Also maybe they need to make more services run with less stops.
@@mattevans4377 whats less safe about the current signalling than more modern types, that last signal related accident in this country was ladbroke grove which was as much to do with human factors and excessive speed limits in the area as it was the safety of the signals and the systems to prevent SPADs that can cause accidents like that have long since been installed in most major areas. theres nothing bonkers to not upgrading the system consuming astronomical amounts of money for little benefit in most areas, of course, we have implimented new systems to suppliment our current systems (replacing the current system is out of the question as its simply infeasible), the pendos and voyagers use TASS, the GWML has ATP and of course the TVM 430 on HS1. all countrys in the world use very similar signaling systems to us on similar lines, 'modern types' of signalling are only found on new build high speed lines, all classic lines in europe and the world use colour light signals similar to ours, of course our one new build high speed line, HS1, does too use more modern signalling.
@@Trainman10715 and of course HS2 will use better signalling. To upgrade the signalling on the WCML would involve upgrading every train that uses the line or ANY section of it. That is not cheap.
Good video , nice scenery shots, 37yrs ago, track condition?? ..tgv at 200mph is a scenery experience, you got 150mph in video I think ,well done ... a.p.t ((good shot ,in vid )) train 37 yrs.ago was really good tech/design.... now let us buy trains that metal fatigue crack.....thanks
It’s a shame that Carstairs cost it the record. That being said it does demonstrate that without the TSR they’d be in with a shot. If Network Rail could make exceptions and allow 140mph, even just for a few sections of the route, they’d definitely have it in the bag. Enjoyed the video, thanks for sharing!
Permitting 140MPH in this day and age is unlikely, and in order to allow a Class 390 to do more than the line speed would require Network Rail to go and modify all the track beacons Otherwise the safety systems would cause a brake application as soon as it goes above the regular line speed.
WCML is speed limited to 125mph yet the Pendos were built for up to 140mph. If the signalling could have been upgraded to allow faster speeds and have more through trains stopping less then perhaps there wouldn't be the same need for HS2.
HS2's entire job is to reduce congestion so that the WCML can be mostly stopping commuter trains and freight rail. The time save it would give over even an upgraded WCML is just a bonus.
The Man In Seat 61, For charity a worthwhile run, for publicity probably not quite although a Pendolino is capable of running much faster--140mph in particular the southern sections of the WCML where a record run could have been easily achieved, until that is addressed it is very unlikely the record set by the APT-P back in 1984 will be broken for the foreseeable future, the APT-P was able to easily maintain a possible run of 3 and half hours but not on an ordinary service, besides certain PSR's through stations and junctions there is the issue of equipment fatigue such as pantograph wear as well as dynamic braking systems not likely to occur during a "One Off" run, a record or test run is only done as a demonstration and duress testing of the train. Besides the APT-P having a carte blanche 160+ mph limit, the braking system--hydrokinetic enables the train to run tight schedules using rapid acceleration and short braking distances, both of which a Pendolino does not have in comparison, the APT-P was designed as a test bed for a future train to operate within the physical capabilities then of the WCML, shorter signaling blocks, more PSR sites and of course the old bottlenecks of Crewe (updated June 1985), Preston, and Carlisle so the APT-P was designed to take those into account. For operational and mechanical reasons the Pendolino would not be able to utilize the full upgraded ability of the WCML so there is no danger of a Pendolino easily breaking the London to Glasgow record unless as mentioned earlier certain stretches are allowed to have permissive maximum speeds raised and the braking system of a Pendolino is upgraded equivalent to an APT-P.
We'd have broken the record without the speed restriction at Carstairs, or if we'd been allowed to exceed the normal speed limits. APT was a problematic prototype allowed to exceed 125mph, we had the normal software that would have applied the brakes had driver Neil tried to exceed 125mph. Wish I'd experienced the APT, but I have more faith in the squadron-service pendolinos!
This video is much better than Geoff’s. No pointless spontaneous on train interviews and annoying chat with people we don’t know or care about. Just the beautiful scenery on the journey
Great video. Shame they missed out by 21 seconds. What top speed did the APT hit when it set the record? Edit: lol I've just read the discription box and answered my question 140mph.
Bear in mind that there wasn't much travelling at 140mph in the journey. At points the line speed was 110mph and they would have done 125mph, but now the line speed in the same places is 125mph. Most of the stations they pass through have been realigned to allow through trains not to have to slow down as much where they couldn't overspeed anyway. The overspeeding wasn't anywhere near the advantage it is being made out to be. The advantages the APT-P had were that it could accelerate and decelerate faster and go around bends faster.
You could have made it if you didn't slow down Into Glasgow; does the train have to arrive in 1 piece to break the record? Dl the passengers need to survive? I'm very competitive so that would have been my solution.
Watch to the end to see the most nail-biting arrival I have ever experienced! For a beginner's guide to train travel in Britain see www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-britain.htm
Did you get seat 61 though?
I hear the voice of Geoff Marshall...
@@hairyairey Too many times ;)
Geoff Marshall's video is at ruclips.net/video/zfg_aHpilO8/видео.html
@@golledgestravels326 After about Milton Keynes I would have pulled the communication cord and threw Geoff off. Talk about a non-stop performance. He's hardly geared up for the quiet coach! What's the difference between Geoff Marshall and the M25? You can turn off the M25.
It's a sign that you've watched too much youtube if you recognise Geoff Marshall's voice!
Man, Geoff Marshall is loud 😃
It was really funny to hear him haha.
Too loud..
@@dackesjulag agreed. Imagine sitting next to that for 4 hours...pass.
Loud and irritating.
I love that you can hear Geoff Marshall chatting away practically the whole trip.
LOVE!?
I can clearly hear "All the Stations" Geoff Marshall somewhere near you.
He's getting rather excited.
Crossover episode 😁
@@Jayfive276 I'll be watching Geoff's feed for just that.
He’s in shot right at the end once they’ve arrived at Glasgow
@@jianzen Red plaid shirt? New hair cut - suits him
Geoff Marshall at 10:13.. Definitely him!
I was just thinking, I hear a Geoff
Yes it's him. Saw the clip of his POV.
That sounds like Geoff Marshall's panicking voice in the background on the arrival in to Glasgow. :-D
I can hear Geoff Marshall in the background at the end of the video haha! Excellent video!
And at the beginning as the train's pulling away
I'm sure that you could he was just at the next table
The fact that the record was set 38 years ago says all you need to know about British infrastructure today.
To be fair, when the APT set the record it was allowed to exceed the speed limit, this train wasn't.
We've a massively upgraded WCML today, with twice the number of services. APT was a prototype, so problematic it never entered squadron service.
@@seat61 It never entered service due to the money supply being cut, ironic that the patents for that train were snapped up very quickly though. Never mind it is just a problematic train right?
Modern British Railways are cutting age, we still have the Class 150\0 units in frontline service dating from 1984. Also some Class 317 units that are even older still in regular use despite increased subsidiary from the poor taxpayer. If you like old trains with new livery application then Britain is the place to be.
@@extrude22 The Pendolino couldn't match the timings of the APT in 125mph service before the West Coast Mainline upgrade was completed.
I can hear Geoff Marshall in the background! Hoping there is a video from him on this too...
Was just about to write this, be nice to see his video as well!
Yes I was thinking that was Geoff. His next video to be entitled None of the Stations.
Considering the huge investment and increased public funding since the BR days incredible that the railway still runs at the BR standard of 125mph. Quite embarrassing a cash strapped BR with very limited resources managed to build a train from scratch (not buy from abroad) still holds the record.
To be fair... they built it and it went really fast, but it was NOT reliable in any way. It was tested for like a 10th of the amount of miles that the original TGV was.
@@Jobother the APT-P project was not finished when the funding plug was pulled. Serious work for the APT-S the production version still was some distance away. It was interesting though that the ATP project patents were snapped up and purchased very quickly and shipped abroad. Apart from Eurostar the APT as far as I am aware is the most powerful train to run in the country
@@Jobother yeah and also to be fair it was a prototype, prototypes generaly arent meant to be reliable
125mph is the fastest you can run and still use lineside signals. Faster than that, you need in-cab signaling - which means a big investment in trains and track alike.
The West Coast Main Line runs *much* quicker than BR days, thanks to the upgrades.
The tilting technology for this Italian Pandalino train was actually taken from the patented technology sold to them from the British APT
so it is still british 🙃
The problem was the British original made people throw up. So Italians did include some crucial improvements, apparently.
This is a British legend. Italy's first tilting train preceded the APT, entering commercial service in 1976. When the APT program was stopped, its technology was offered for sale. Neither Sweden's ABB (X2000) nor Fiat Ferroviaria were interested in licensing it. You may want to read David Clough's excellent book: "APT, the untold story".
9:43 I could hear Geoff Marshall in the background!
And 2:08
I am so happy that we can travel again. I live in Belfast and can’t wait to catch a ferry to Liverpool and then take a train to elsewhere in England/Scotland
Is that a Geoff Marshall I can here as the train departs Euston?
And arriving into Glasgow. Yes that's him.
if the Pendolino can get within 21 seconds of beating a speeding APT, and the Pendolino is following the speed limit, just imagine what could be done with a speeding Pendolino.
It won’t let you
Then imagine what the APT-P (prototype) could achieve with all of the line upgrades that have been done since the 80s. All of the time the Pendolino made up was due to the line upgrades rather than the performance of the train.
@@GDGRailway47712 They spent all that money on the line upgrade for a measly 15 mph increase in speed
Imagine if they just took the wings off a concorde, and stuck some wheels on....
@Bazzacuda 125mph is a sight limit, any faster requires a different signalling system where the track controls the maximum speed of the train.
when you can hear geoff marshall in the background lol
and see him at 10:12 stood next to Tim Dunn 😂 at least I think it's him... pretty sure it's him!
@@joeymandrews I did think so. Nice to see Geoff interviewed the man in seat 61, shame it also wasn't other way around.
Brilliant trip video. Really shattered that train dinnae beat the record. Glad to see you back travelling. Cheers.
Great attempt. And when you think if you fly to Glasgow it really is still around 3hr by the time you get to the airport get through security get bag in the hold. Then the short flight then wait for your bag to come of the plane then make your way in to Glasgow by bus/taxi they is not a lot. And the biggest bonus with train is no stress.
Time-wise a train that fast beats the plane when you include everything. But the plane is still 3 times cheaper. Which is crazy.
You can hear Geoff Marshall chatting away in the background! And see him and Tim Dunn as the time is announced!! #legend
Yes, Geoff & Tim were in the next seating bay from me. A convivial trip!
There are so many stupid comments here it’s quite unbelievable
GIven the APT was able to break speed limits and the Pendolino nearly matched the old timing, there must be an improvement somewhere in the infrastructure. So how fast could the APT do it today if it was allowed to break speed limits! The APT is a monument to modern rail engineering.
ruclips.net/video/y47WRiGM5Sw/видео.html
Well yes there are numerou curves that have been eased and junctions that have been modernised and improved since the 1980s that allow the average speed over the line to be increased, along with much quadrupling of track that was previously double track, to increase capacity.
For all the derision it got, a lot of people don't realise the APT is STILL the overall speed record holder for this route, and also the fastest British built train overall (162.2mph).
Perhaps if, in 1984, people had realised we still wouldn't be able to better that performance nearly 4 decades later, it might have gotten a little more respect and the press might not have stuck the knife in quite so much, effectively killing it off. Though addmittedly, bashing BR was something of a national sport at that time!
Realistically, the reason it has yet to be bested is absolutely nothing to do with the train itself, and everything to do with the abysmal attitude the government has had when it comes to modernizing any rail networks North of London. That Pendolino could easily have trashed the APT if it was allowed to run at it's top speed of 140mph - something it has never done in service due to the fact that the lines it runs on don't support the signalling technology required to manage trains at higher speeds.
@@adhillA97 Oh, yes I wasn't implying that the Pendolino wasn't technically capable of breaking the record - I'm sure it is, and on the right day, probably will. I was just highlighting how remarkable the APTs record was at the time, and how it's amazing performance sadly wasn't enough to save it from all the bad press it got.
That said, BOTH trains could probably post faster times in an ideal world (the APT could hit 155mph with ease). The limiting factor always was, and still is, the line infrastructure, which isn't significantly more advanced now than it was back in the late 60's... Roll on HS2! haha
i think the same of the intercity 250; every time i see images of it i get a pang of regret over what could have been and what could currently be
You are mixing two issues. The reason the record still stand is signaling. The West Coast Mainline modernization planned by private owners (Railtrack) without rail engineering experience envisioned 140 mph trains. The moving block technology they had in mind did not exist and they went bankrupt. UK government had to step in to nationalise the tracks and somewhat finish the work for 9 billion pounds.
As for the trains, I don't know about the bad press or BR bashing, but the APT development was shambolic. For some unfathomable reason, BR engineers thought that the TGV setting, one high tension cable connecting both motrices to a single pantograph, was dangerous. They lost years trying to find another solution, missing deadline after deadline. Don't take my word, read the book "APT, the untold story" by Brian Clough.
@@alaindumas1824 The signalling system used today is the same as it was back then.
Yes, the APT was allowed to exceed the speed limit for its special run, but equally the WCML has had many improvements to the track layout since then - Easing of various curves, major upgrading of junctions and station approaches, quadrupling of tracks along some sections etc. allowing the average speed over the line to be raised, benefitting the Pendolino. Apart from that TSO through Carstairs, I'd say it was a reasonably fair comparion run-for-run. Without that the Pendo probably would have broken the record, just.
I'm not denying the Pendo is a better train overall than the APT. Nor am I denying the many reliability and refinement issues with the APT (it was a prototype after all). And BR effectively shot themselves in the foot by trying to launch it before it was ready (due to external pressure to do so). But it was none of those things that caused the project to be shelved in the end. The press nicknamed it the APT "accident prone train" and claimed the tilt gave passengers travel sickness (most people who travelled on it did not suffer this) and generally loved to report on anything negative they could find, no matter how dubious (as they still do today). By the time the reliability issue had been worked out circa 1984/5 when the record was set, the train was already seen as something of a joke in the public eye and not something BR could effectively market and charge a premium for. The project was abandoned soon after.
Blatantly Geoff Marshall in the background there!! Was that the "RUclipsRS" carriage :-P
I think it was the Big Nobs carriage :)
@@scotsguy422 I thought the Scottish representatives were in the next carriage :-)
I hear Geoff Marshall in the background lol.
Not complaining, it's excellent, but Geoff is very loud haha.
The passing scenery is absolutely gorgeous! 👍🏻😃
Should have done it the other way round as it's down hill. 🚲
😂😂
Why they did not book seat #61 for you
Madrid-Barcelona (650 km): 2h 30h without stops, 2h 45 with one stop at Zaragoza.
Thanks for your comment.
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London to Glasgow is (555km) takes over 3 hrs none stop. A failed attempt to break the record, with a max speed of 125mph.
UK lagging behind Spain in railway journey time's is a concern, when Britian were the pioneers of rail infrastructure.
Over 30% or railways in Britian are electrified which is one of the lowest percentage rates in Europe.
I can hear Geoff Marshall in the background 😀
You are not the only one ...
Congratulations for your first video where you are talking and showing your face. I am very proud of you Mark. Keep up the fabulous work of your train vlogs. I also like how you are verbally explaining. It seems like you are an expert at trains.
9:34 I hear geoffs voice I reckon he’ll be making a video on this
We can hear Geoff Marshall when arriving to Glasgow xD
You can see him in the aisle too!
Can't believe they couldn't break the record, with newer trains and an upgraded line! Ditto when GWR couldn't beat a Paddington - Reading time set by a HS125 set 40 years ago with a new (electric) Azuma set! One wonders where the billions Network Rail throw at parts of the network go!
The Edinburgh Glasgow record is still held by 47704 Dunedin hauling Mk3s and a DBSO almost 40 years ago.
Different game now, BR would do it on the quiet during periods of next to no traffic - Remember the Class 91 was let loose and did 162mph.
If they ever want a class opening for HS2 they should allow the LSL midland pullman a fast run up there - see what those big VP185s can do when turned up a touch (during stress testing they were pushed up to about 3000hp)
@@leonblittle226 Commissioning tests always test them beyond top design speed. The Pendolino was pushed to its max at some point, though it was only able to record something slightly over 140mph due to gearing.
@@GDGRailway47712 I remember bringing Dunedin off Edge Hill depot back in 82 for a service to Newcastle. In those days some of the push/pulls were overhauled at Crewe, and they worked back up north on a Trans Pennine job, usually the first Newcastle service ex Lime Street.. 704 was outshopped in the new BR large logo and looked immaculate. What a pity she was scrapped many years ago :-(
@@leonblittle226 there are twice as many trains running on the network now as there were 40 years ago (early 80's). This is why it's much more difficult to set 'speed records'. Demand for train travel is so much more now than it was back then (despite a pandemic for more than a year).
This is also why they're building HS2 - to enable the faster trains to use the new HS lines.....giving more capacity on existing lines for stopping services and semi fast services. This means it''ll be easier to do speed records in the future, as they will most likely be done on these new HS lines. Existing lines are just too busy, and the disruption caused by cancelling half a days worth of trains on them, too massive...not to mention expensive.
It's easy when the rail operator is state owned. But when they are private companies, they lose alot of money when these record attempts are carried out - through cancellation or delay to alot of trains. France can do record attempts more easily as their rail operator is state owned and they have super straight HS lines on which to do them. We don't have any of this....yet.
Its impressive it lost by 21seconds.. but its so 21st century it failed due to a sped restriction!
I would say blame it on the slow speed restriction through Carstairs. Such a shame.
I hope the folks at Avanti Railway would consider making another run at the record sometime in the future.
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I hear Geoff Marshall
Very exciting! Love your work, good to see you back at it.
As someone who has travelled on the Euston to Glasgow route several times, a few seconds missed from the record is nothing, I wish there were more through services that would cut the number of stopping stations, it's the stopping that slows the whole journey down.
Stopping makes it pay! Can't fill all seats with no stops!
I agree. I used to commute regularly between Glasgow and various points south, including London Euston. Going north, from Wigan up to Carlisle it's more or less a commuter train with people hopping on and off all along the way. I still prefer the train to flying though, especially when Virgin had the franchise. Okay it took about four and a half hours, maybe more what with the stopping and starting, but the catering in first class was good.
Happy to see you back after so many months...
Well happy to see a fast service between London and Scotland. Usually it takes a similar time travelling via train from London to Edinburgh and to board a flight, fly to Edinburgh/Glasgow and checkout.
Costs almost the same as well.
Mark,
great to see you back on line, hope to see more of your excellent videos
beautiful scenery, and it appears to be a smooth ride, but sad that there has been no significant improvement since the original run 37 years ago!
On the contrary, the line has been upgraded and a London-Glasgow every 2 hours taking 5h10 has become an hourly London-Glasgow taking 4h20. The record was set by an APT prototype which was so problem-prone it never entered squadron service, and which was allowed to do 140mph. We had to stick to the speed limit, but could have still beaten the record if either that 90-second TSR hadn't been there, or we'd made half a minute up on the booked sectional times as it had been thought we could.
Should do it again after the speed restrictions at Carstairs are lifted
In Spain, much of the landscape is already a burnt umber colour. These landscapes bring a nostalgic tremble to an expat.
Just imagine trying this record again but the Pendolino was pushed harder for more speed
Geoff broke the record for talking
Proof we need HS2
or that we should be spending all that cash on improving the existing railways.
Gareth Dennis railway worker did a video about why we need hs2 and the fact is hs2 will double the long distance train service capacity even if all long distance train when on hs2 instead ECML, MML and WCML.
@@danensis
Is that what the experts suggest?
@@danensis imagine the road network without motorways. That is what we have on the railways. Lines that have to do too much. Best way to increase their capacity is to move the most demanding traffic onto its own line. The business case for HS2 starts with the capacity benefits but you will never hear the media say this. Speed is something we are able to do with a new dedicated line and worth doing.
Thanks. Looking at the 'before and after nose' of the 390 there might have been a record number of 'bugs' which did not survive the trip!
There's something deeply satisfying about being on a long train journey through the countryside especially when there are no stops and no new passengers to disturb you.
By the way Berkhamsted has no 'p'. It's a common misspelling.
Ha! You’re the first person to spot that. Thought that’d happen sooner. I haven’t misspelt it, I have merely used the pre-1937 spelling !
@@seat61 ah well then you are missing the a in 'stead' then! Sorry, I grew up there so it stands out to me more than it should!
What a pity we didn't have the guts to continue development of the APT.
Where do you think the pendolino technology came from? Ever witnessed the tilt through Hemel Hempstead on that service? Simply amazing
@@hairyairey Italy had tilting years trains before the APT. BR tried to sell its technology when they gave up, but no one was interested. Fiat's Pendolinos and ABB X 2000 were homegrown.
@@alaindumas1824 they did indeed however Fiat bought the patents from BR and improved on the technology. BR's design at that stage was ahead of Fiat's research.
I remember the sleeper train from Glasgow to London. Happy days .
They'll have to do it again😉👍 Well done avanti West Coast!
Well done for losing to a proto type that set the record in 1984 🤣
Usual speal on board announcements thanking everyone except the man on the power handle!!
Spiel 😉 it's deutsch...
Language was never my strong points at shool!?🤪 more of a practical subject person...like escape and evade teacher....bunking off ....heavy petting behind bike sheds etc!
Allowing for the 90 seconds speed restriction, I recon you might certainly have beaten the old record if only by 20 - 30 seconds at least!
Great to see the attempt being made.🙂👍
2:10 a wild Geoff marshell appears
He's clearly audible at 9:30 as well.
10:10 you can see him as well
They can always try again when the restrictions r gone
I guess the quiet carriage was unavailable then? 😅
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SOB !!! As "Maxwell Smart " used to say , "missed it by that much" :):):)
That was great "Seat 61" !!! Thank you for sharing this with us...:):):)
125mph limit! And on a line as long as that…Many of our European neighbours regularly top 200mph operationally. Such a shame how far we’ve fallen behind. Shame this run wasn’t the one either. In my opinion if the current record was allowed a little headroom this should have had the same treatment :(
We have 320km/h (199 mph) on the English section of the line between London and Paris. Same on most of the French section.
they are on the way to improve that, search for High Speed 2 in Wikipedia
Remember, most of this is on regular, non high speed track. Non improved. Segregated, specially designed, and maintained track could handle speeds of 320km/h, but not regular track.
7:19 that T shaped forest was there when I was a boy 30 years ago..
Since moving to Australia where I miss UK high speed rail 🥲
Wish Australia had high speed trains too ❤️
Not enough people to justify the cost
I just looked it up. London to Glasgow, 662 km, 3 hr 52 min. But Beijing to Wuhan, 1,136 km, 4 hr 17 min?
Beijing-wuhan line has speed limits >300km/h. I think this line max speed is 200km/h.
Now look up when the West Coast Main Line was built.
Ah, well. To get that close without breaking speed limits shows that it can be done, however. There were surely sections where that train could have safely edged up to 135 mph...
Beautiful video!
Shame you didn't beat the time, but it was still a great video. Watching the UK countryside roll by was really relaxing. Looking forward to traveling over there again, hopefully in the not-too-distant future!
I was on the southbound Pendo a few years ago that got the record in that direction. Definitely a memorable ride - fast acceleration and braking was the key, I seen to remember.
I still wish they'd put the proper 140mph signalling in that they planned.
they did, the C-APT as used on the APT permitted it to run up to 140 mph and would have permitted 155 mph running had the project been completed
Awsome ! I was sitting on the edge of my chair ! 21 seconds thats a bummer! nice vid though
The pendolino is an apt in a different body near enough, the Italians bought the technology when the programme was scrapped
And like many British inventions done better by other countries!
The first Pendolino prototype, the ETR Y 0160 ran in 1969. Commercial service started in 1976 with the ETR 401. BR tried to sell its technology when the APT program was scrapped in the 1980s. They were no takers. Don't take my word, read Brian Clough's book "APT, the untold story".
You crazy Britain's! Respect from a German.
We do not need your ICE train in the UK running at 190mph plus, we are happy with 125mph services, we are also very proud of the 35 year old Sprinter services that run at the very fast and world leading 75mph...
Get that APT out and running again!
Nice countryside to watch.
Impressive they managed to clear the tracks ahead so well.
Can’t beat the APT
Great to see you do some video's again. I miss the British Isles. greeting from amsterdam where you been a lot too.
Great video - of course you were blessed with good weather!
Was anyone on that train NOT a RUclipsr? :o)
Erm, Pete Waterman, Sir Peter Hendy, journalist Matthew Parris... There were one or two!
Geoff Marshall sent me
Great effort guys love nd wishes from Trichy, Tamilnadu, India.
Am proud of ur railways ♥️
10:11 I caught you, Geoff Marshall. 😄😄
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Of course Geoff was on it
e
ruclips.net/video/N9zPuQj-4qs/видео.html
Hii sir after a long time am able to watch your video
I love, love, love trains. We don't have so many here in North America...
Here’s a train ride in California 🤍✨ruclips.net/video/v7b_-KbKum4/видео.html
Great video. Good shot of the tower at Daresbury STFC just before Bank Quay!!
ruclips.net/video/y47WRiGM5Sw/видео.html
Appreciate the comfort level ! Looks as train moved smooth as butter !!
Considering the West Coast Mainline was supposed to have been upgraded and the APT did it with older technology, signalling and probably a train which was prone to breakdown, this doesn’t look good for the modern railways of Britain.
If they were allowed to exceed track limits then I reckon they would have done it. Also maybe they need to make more services run with less stops.
its really just the old signalling that held them back. Currently the signalling is what limits them to 125mph.
@@xander1052 And the current signalling is currently less safe than more modern types of signalling. Bonkers that we haven't upgraded it yet.
@@mattevans4377 yup, it's honestly ridiculous.
@@mattevans4377 whats less safe about the current signalling than more modern types, that last signal related accident in this country was ladbroke grove which was as much to do with human factors and excessive speed limits in the area as it was the safety of the signals and the systems to prevent SPADs that can cause accidents like that have long since been installed in most major areas. theres nothing bonkers to not upgrading the system consuming astronomical amounts of money for little benefit in most areas, of course, we have implimented new systems to suppliment our current systems (replacing the current system is out of the question as its simply infeasible), the pendos and voyagers use TASS, the GWML has ATP and of course the TVM 430 on HS1. all countrys in the world use very similar signaling systems to us on similar lines, 'modern types' of signalling are only found on new build high speed lines, all classic lines in europe and the world use colour light signals similar to ours, of course our one new build high speed line, HS1, does too use more modern signalling.
@@Trainman10715 and of course HS2 will use better signalling. To upgrade the signalling on the WCML would involve upgrading every train that uses the line or ANY section of it. That is not cheap.
Good video , nice scenery shots, 37yrs ago, track condition?? ..tgv at 200mph is a scenery experience, you got 150mph in video I think ,well done ... a.p.t ((good shot ,in vid )) train 37 yrs.ago was really good tech/design.... now let us buy trains that metal fatigue crack.....thanks
I've seen this train often in Glasgow central. It's stunning looking😍😍
If they had come down from Scotland gravity would have sped things up!
Och Aye! It's all downhill from there Laddy!
7:22 - the Crawford phallic symbol as planted by Italian POWs I recall.
It’s a shame that Carstairs cost it the record. That being said it does demonstrate that without the TSR they’d be in with a shot. If Network Rail could make exceptions and allow 140mph, even just for a few sections of the route, they’d definitely have it in the bag. Enjoyed the video, thanks for sharing!
Permitting 140MPH in this day and age is unlikely, and in order to allow a Class 390 to do more than the line speed would require Network Rail to go and modify all the track beacons Otherwise the safety systems would cause a brake application as soon as it goes above the regular line speed.
WCML is speed limited to 125mph yet the Pendos were built for up to 140mph. If the signalling could have been upgraded to allow faster speeds and have more through trains stopping less then perhaps there wouldn't be the same need for HS2.
Except it's so congested... Different speeds doesn't mash well
HS2's entire job is to reduce congestion so that the WCML can be mostly stopping commuter trains and freight rail. The time save it would give over even an upgraded WCML is just a bonus.
You can propose to upgrade the signalling but everyone will whinge about it being too expensive and good enough as it is (x
@@xander1052 HS2's entire job is to line the pockets of the few.
@@danensis no that's the job of the chancellor.
The Man In Seat 61, For charity a worthwhile run, for publicity probably not quite although a Pendolino is capable of running much faster--140mph in particular the southern sections of the WCML where a record run could have been easily achieved, until that is addressed it is very unlikely the record set by the APT-P back in 1984 will be broken for the foreseeable future, the APT-P was able to easily maintain a possible run of 3 and half hours but not on an ordinary service, besides certain PSR's through stations and junctions there is the issue of equipment fatigue such as pantograph wear as well as dynamic braking systems not likely to occur during a "One Off" run, a record or test run is only done as a demonstration and duress testing of the train. Besides the APT-P having a carte blanche 160+ mph limit, the braking system--hydrokinetic enables the train to run tight schedules using rapid acceleration and short braking distances, both of which a Pendolino does not have in comparison, the APT-P was designed as a test bed for a future train to operate within the physical capabilities then of the WCML, shorter signaling blocks, more PSR sites and of course the old bottlenecks of Crewe (updated June 1985), Preston, and Carlisle so the APT-P was designed to take those into account. For operational and mechanical reasons the Pendolino would not be able to utilize the full upgraded ability of the WCML so there is no danger of a Pendolino easily breaking the London to Glasgow record unless as mentioned earlier certain stretches are allowed to have permissive maximum speeds raised and the braking system of a Pendolino is upgraded equivalent to an APT-P.
We'd have broken the record without the speed restriction at Carstairs, or if we'd been allowed to exceed the normal speed limits. APT was a problematic prototype allowed to exceed 125mph, we had the normal software that would have applied the brakes had driver Neil tried to exceed 125mph. Wish I'd experienced the APT, but I have more faith in the squadron-service pendolinos!
I think that Avanti West Coast wants to do it again but not sure when it will happen again.
Spotted a few places where speed was down so i think a completely clear run could save 5 mins or so.
I hope they do it again sometime soon. This was a very interesting 'race'.😄
first time seeing Mr seat 61 in his own video!
There's a first for everything...
@@seat61 Good to see you! We wish you many more safe & fun trips
This video is much better than Geoff’s. No pointless spontaneous on train interviews and annoying chat with people we don’t know or care about. Just the beautiful scenery on the journey
, japan.china.france.italy.spain Germany do those speeds and + every day and we make a big thing about this 🤣
Great video. Shame they missed out by 21 seconds. What top speed did the APT hit when it set the record?
Edit: lol I've just read the discription box and answered my question 140mph.
Bear in mind that there wasn't much travelling at 140mph in the journey. At points the line speed was 110mph and they would have done 125mph, but now the line speed in the same places is 125mph. Most of the stations they pass through have been realigned to allow through trains not to have to slow down as much where they couldn't overspeed anyway. The overspeeding wasn't anywhere near the advantage it is being made out to be.
The advantages the APT-P had were that it could accelerate and decelerate faster and go around bends faster.
4:26 pretty sure that's @geoffmarshall talking in the background?
i spot geoff marshal, i guess we know what his new vid will be too
Alas sadly you could hear him at the end too......
We heard him, then saw him at the end :)
@@BibtheBoulder What do you mean, "sadly"?
Why are half the comments under this video from arseholes?
You could have made it if you didn't slow down Into Glasgow; does the train have to arrive in 1 piece to break the record? Dl the passengers need to survive? I'm very competitive so that would have been my solution.
I think we were all pretty keen on surviving...
@@seat61 Well, you'll never beat the record with that attitude; where's your Titanic spirit?
UK looks beautiful 🇬🇧Love from 🇿🇦