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I don't get why people think Joel was the villain or that they despised him, personally to me Joel was the most honest & understandable character in the game, to actually reach that level of absolutes, the lengh he went to for Ellie in the end was absolutely beautifull, i was with him 100% by the end of the game i understood completely why he made the choices he made, a vaccine wouldn't save the world it would only cause more segregation, greed & murder, Joel knew that people would find a way to adapt and some did (Tommy's group) just like he said you just keep finding something to survive for, in short a vaccine was pointless.
I don't think she was ready to die, because Ellie talked about learning to swim and play guitar when it was "all over" so I believe she was expecting to live
I found myself playing this game by chance, and ended up finishing it in two days. Then I got online, and I have to admit that I have been blown away by all the hate towards Joel. To me, people who think Joel was the bad guy in the end really did not understand the game. The world in this game is completely different from the world we all live in right now. The standards are completely different. Yes, Joel killed people, but it is made abundantly clear that everyone else is doing that too! The Fireflies left a bad taste in my mouth through the entire game. I found Marlene sketchy from the very beginning. The conflict between The Fireflies and the government is clear, and I honestly think that the Fireflies would have simply used the cure as a means to power. They might have used it as leverage against the government, who knows! Even if most of the Fireflies had good intentions, a cure for all of humanity is a lot of power for one organization to wield. The Fireflies are not necessarily the angelic good guys that so many people seem to think they are. And the game gives many hints that they are a sketchy group of people. To me, the fact that they were willing to remove a 14 year old girls brain, without her permission, for a tiny chance at finding a cure just shows how far they had fallen from their humanity. They were willing to murder a young girl just for the slight chance of saving a world that had already gone to hell. A cure would have only made things messier. Also, the fact that they refused to simply let Joel speak to Ellie speaks volumes to me, as it majorly hints to the fact that they were killing Ellie without her permission and knew that if they let Joel talk with her, their entire plan would be shot to hell. They adamantly claim to be the "good guys," but their actions prove that they are just as flawed and untrustworthy as all the other characters. And as for Joel's decision in the end, lying to Ellie is what any parent would do. This 14 year old girl literally had the weight of the world resting on her shoulders, and he gave her a way out of it by lying to her. No matter how screwed up the world is, a 14 year old girl shouldn't have that kind of responsibility placed on her. The Joel in the beginning of the game is a parent, full of humanity and emotion. And Ellie brings all of that back to him. Sarah was taken from him, cruelly and unnecessarily, and it obviously left permanent damage to him emotionally. He had no power to save Sarah, so after forming a father-daughter bond with Ellie, of course he's not going to willingly let her get murdered. Ellie said to Joel early in the game that she "wasn't Sarah" and basically told him that he wouldn't lose her the way he lost Sarah. And if Joel had let the world take Ellie's life, then guess what? He would have lost her the same way he lost Sarah. Plus, what if Joel had let them kill Ellie, and it didn't help anything? Just like the other immunes that were killed by the Fireflies, what if Ellie died for nothing? It would have been completely on Joel. He would have had to deal with the pain of not only losing his first daughter, but willingly sacrificing his second daughter for a completely lost cause. Not to mention the immense amount of pressure he was under to either leave Ellie or save her, and I think he went with his gut decision, and it makes perfect sense that a parent's gut instinct would be to protect their child. Joel was my favorite character of the game. Because he was flawed, but he had reasoning behind it. He opened his heart up to Ellie, and in the end felt such a strong emotional bond to her that he was willing to do absolutely anything and everything to save her. He was the character with the most humanity in the end, in contrast to the Fireflies who had lost their true sense of humanity. Joel saved Ellie in every way a parent should, and to me, that's a depressing yet beautiful thing. So, in conclusion, a big "screw you" to all you who label Joel as the bad guy :)
Jay D Yes! That is so true. Everyone had their own motivations for their actions, but when you break down all of those different motivations, Joel's choice really was the most human choice of them all. The Fireflies were a lost cause, with little resources and no real power.
Jessica Davis Completely agree with everything you said. Joel is a classic anti-hero. Gamers are so used to familiar game tropes, that it upsets them when games like this break the rules. Hang on...the human race wasn't saved?? Good didn't trump evil??? It's ridiculous because that isn't what the game is about. It was a brilliant case study of a broken mans journey and finally his redemption. The fact that Joel found a reason to live again in a world that has gone to shit was the perfect end for me. Most of the humans you meet that are still alive aren't worth saving either!
Jessica Davis Never have I read so much truth in a youtube comment. It's funny that people write how they hate Joel or that he's the bad guy. To be honest I would be wary of the man who would willingly sacrifice his daughter or any 14 year old girl for that matter. Pretty much means that I hated everyone's opinion in this spoilercast. I think anyone who doesn't understand now will understand if/when they have children of their own, no way would I sacrifice my little brother for the small chance of finding the cure.
CBMgoonerComps Yeah all of these guys in the video had a very immature response to Joel's decision. It's funny cos i too wondered if any of them had children of their own. It definitely makes you see the world in a whole new light, one you can't truly appreciate until you have a child of your own. You stop living purely for yourself, everything you do is for them and you would sacrifice yourself in a heartbeat if you thought it would save their life. The fact Joel has that taken from him, by someone he should have been able to trust, i.e the military who are there to protect, why is he going to let another military style organisation take his '2nd' daughter away from him too, The whole scene in the hospital where he is carrying Ellie in his arms, mirrors perfectly how he was holding Sarah in the beginning, and who was facing him both those times? Men dressed in military gear with assault rifles! No way on earth was he going to let history repeat itself!
+Rogan Miller All that you've said makes sense, and in Joel's position, one does not really have a choice. I agree. However, I also understand the opposing view. Imagine, you're with your family and you're best friend and his family - both of you have half of your families left. Your children scared. Siblings dead. Love ones in fear of hopelessness. Then, the fireflies come around and say they found a way to create a vaccine. But then, a man is trying to stop the vaccine for his own selfish reasons. You're telling me, with what's left of your family and your best friends family you'll be okay? The single chance you have left to save humanity, you're going to throw it away?
People that think Joel is the bad guy generally are people who don't have children. Joel lost his daughter, he formed a connection with Ellie that was a father - daughter connection and he would walk through the gates of hell before he loses another child.
Regarding the ending, Joel doesn't know whether Ellie agreed to this, thus his parental instinct kicks in. He failed to save Sara, so he's trying to make up for it by saving Ellie. When he lies about the truth, it's because he'd rather not disrupt the life he has with her. He's selfish, and you're supposed to feel bad for him, even though he does the wrong thing by lying. I thought it was a perfect ending. Depressing yet bittersweet.
"he does the wrong thing" I disagree I would have done the exact same thing if I was in that situation! "Joel doesn't know whether Ellie agreed to this" it was obvious that she didn't because she would have ask to say goodbye to Joel before the surgery. Question to IGN = how is removing the brain of a young girl against her will the right thing to do again?
Walter Sobchak I have to agree with you. I've seen too many movies and tv shows prior to this to know that when a shady character says "it's what she/he WOULD want", it's usually bullshit.
Robert Wild Ellie was never given a choice. I believe she was coerced to agree with whatever the Fireflies' belief for a cure. Marlene speaks with a forked tongue.
It's selfish and it's not. He probably could have told her the truth and she cares about him enough to where she might forgive him and they could go on with their lives. But by lying to her he's the only one that has to live with the guilt.
Ellie even says durning the gameplay.. after this we will go where you want.. do what you want to do.. So I know she didnt expect to be killed for a cure.
I don't think, Joel became the villain in the end. He became the most human survivor, alongside Ellie. You can justify a lot of atrocities by saying "It's what she would have wanted" and "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In what world is it ever justified to cut out the brain of a child to possibly find a vaccine? And even if the fireflies asked Ellie for her permission - would that have been fair? Or would they have used her survivor's guilt to manipulate her into complying? Ellie isn't selfish, she might have gone along with it, because she couldn't have lived with herself if she thought, humanity was doomed because of her. As soon as the fireflies got a hold of her, they drugged her. And they wanted to force Joel away at gunpoint. Those are not the actions of the good guys. When I played that Hospital-Level, I thought they would have taken Ellies brain out, even if she had screamed and begged for her life. It is implied in one of Marlenes recordings. The decision has already been made, her go ahead is just a formality. So at the very end, when Joel lies to Ellie, he is partly selfish. Because he wanted to keep her alive so he could hold on to his restored humanity and he probably didn't want Ellie to think him a bad person for killing Marlene and the others. And partly, he is very selfless. Because he tries to spare her the guilt. He wants her to live a life, as happy as possible in this world. That's what every parent would do for their child. He knew, Ellies survivor's guilt would kick in and she would hate him and herself. He also knew, from a long life in the pre- and postapocalyptic world, that your views can change. You can't force a 14-year-old to make a decision like Ellie almost had on her hands. I think, in the end, she knows or at least suspects, he is lying. She is partly disillusioned about him, but plays along. Because he offers her a way out. Even for a person as selfless as Ellie, sacrificing yourself is no easy decision. When she plays along with his lie, she has a way to justify being alive. He takes the burden of that decision onto his own shoulders. I'm just not too sure, if they can ever be as close again as they were during the Winter-Part. Also, I think if the roles would have been reversed, Ellie would have saved Joel as well. She has already proven the lenghts she would go to, when she took on Davids crew for Joels sake.
Really well said. I'm not sure if Ellie would have agreed to die if they had asked. Remember just when we enter Pittsburgh there is an optional conversation you can have just after finding the comic on the bus and Ellie asks Joel if the Hunters killed all the people around them in the cars, Joel says no it was the Military to prevent any possible infected people getting into the city, and dead people don't get infected he says "you sacrifice the few to save the many" Ellie replies "that's pretty shitty" and Joel says "yeah"
Honestly, I think the two of them will be fine. Certainly Ellie must suspect Joel was lying about something, but not necessarily what. And in the end she knows that he cares about her and she cares about them. If he's not willing to tell her right now then she'll just have to trust him. After all they went through to get this far, I don't think holding some stuff back from her will keep them from staying close long term. Joel had been a survivor and at the end he finally became a person on top of that. Had lost so much, but then finally had something to fight for. This was one sacrifice he couldn't walk away from.
I'm A4RON Yep shit myself during that part. you could just see infected running every now and then in the dark and when you turn on the generator that screech and a wave of infected come at you. Damn good game though.
In the end when Joel says " I struggled for a long time with surviving..." If you notice he touches his watch as he says it. For me showing how the watch reminds him of Sarah, and what's kept him going. Very symbolic game.
Joel could've saved the world but to Joel, Ellie was his world. He thought of her as a second daughter, and he had to take care of her for as long as he can.
He even explains it perfectly "I struggled a long time with surviving, but, you keep finding something to fight for" ... Ellie is all Joel has to fight for by the end. Yeah you can say he's being selfish, he is. But at the moment, without Ellie, Joel literally has nothing to live for anymore.
When I got into the room I shot two doctors and then one started screaming and it really bothered me when I thought about I had just murdered 2 people without even thinking about it and the last doctor screaming really made me realize how terrible what I just did was. Things like that are what make The Last Of Us my favorite game of all time.
I killed all of them and I do every time I play. The woman screaming she doesn't want to die... well I don't care because they didn't even ask Ellie they were just going to kill her. These guys call Joel a selfish prick, no he wasn't. Ok maybe he was selfish but we all would be if it was someone we loved. I don't see him as the bad guy in this, the fireflies to me were the bad guys, his lie was to protect her because she looked up to Marlene and to know that she gave the go ahead to kill her would devastate her.
skywarp34100 How amazing is that? That the game was able to bring that out of you, which by the way is very scary - you, like everyone else, would kill given the circumstances presented to you.
Kinda sad they glazed over the Henry and Sam ending scenes. That was the most shocking, powerful and heartfelt scene in the whole game to me. They were the equivalent of a Joel and Ellie and in another universe TLOU game they would of been the playable characters you would of cared for. Two of the only really good relatable people you met in the whole game.
Joel made the decision the real parent would made for their child. (confirmed by Ellie letter from her mom, to find something to fight for to live). The parent conundrum vs saving humanity. Marlene promised Ellie's mom to keep her safe not to donate her to science.
To the people bashing Joel, do you think you could sacrifice the person that meant the most to you for the world, your daughter? Your spouse? Your parents? Especially after losing someone already.
I think this game showed EVERYONE as the bad guy. The Military was opressive. The people who overthrew the military in their zones became murderers and hunted down innocents. Joel had been a hunter in the past. Bill indicated he was a pretty bad person and he admitted to Ellie he killed a lot of innocent people. Marlene was going to kill a girl she promised to protect. The Fireflieswanted to murder Joel after he brought Ellie to Salt Lake City..only Marlene stopped them. There is no proof killing Ellie would have provided a cure. There is no proof the Fireflies would have spread the cure. Joel's biggest mistake at the end was not letting Ellie decide. He was no worse than anyone else in his world. There was no bad..just a very grey situation. I agree, anyone who thought Joel was "bad" is being a bit myopic.
1:04:20 "So this one's gonna be rereleased to death on every PlayStation platform" Anybody else here in 2023 (or beyond) after *finally* beating the third releaes of Last of Us on PS5?
I don't see how they think Joel is a bad guy. He's done some awful things but the most despicable hero in video game history? Not quite. All of that shit about the Fireflies is bollocks as well. To be honest, no one knows the Fireflies motives, they could have used that vaccine for anything, manipulating people, gaining power, etc. In a world where society has collapsed, people's motives obviously become unclear. They didn't just "turn evil" they just didn't give Ellie a chance and actually left Joel with no other choice.
r3zBoT No its made very clear that she did not know she was going into surgery. When she woke up in the car she asks "what am i wearing" because the last time she was conscious was just before she almost drowned. It also wouldn't have been explained to her before she met joel because she asks joel how they would extract the cure and he replies "they'll probably take some blood" so she is completely oblivious to what the firefly are doing. Ellie probably realises that he's lying because she wakes up in a hospital gown but "they've stopped looking for a cure" which doesn't make any sense.
Good lord Greg Miller, stop being so damn over-dramatic. Joel DOES NOT become the bad guy at the end. I'm pretty much a pacifist and if I was in Joel's shoes at the end, I would have wiped the place out as well.
17:08 "Cos Joel was being lazy or whatever." I don't think he was being lazy. The game opens up and it says 20 years later. It may not be the case but i took that to mean it was 20 years to the day since Sarah had died. He didn't go on the last job because on this day every year he drinks away his pain on the anniversary of his daughters death, that is how i read it.
Ugh I hate how they immediately begin to bash Joel and bastardize the decision he elected to make by saving Ellie, rather than taking the risk of her dying, for the possible, not guaranteed chance of getting a vaccine! He may be a little selfish, but we all played the game! To those of you who support the negative light they put Joel under, put yourself in his shoes in the situation with every danger Joel and Ellie traversed, and tell me your bond with her wouldn't be strong enough to make you choose the same decision Joel ultimately made. I personally can say that I would have done the same thing because of how strong that bond had become, especially in that world, Joel was sort of the only thing Ellie had left. Just stating a different take on the ending, rather than immediately demonizing his selfish actions for saving Ellie, I think it was justified with reading some of the other posts with theories of the Fireflies intentions for the vaccine, we don't know if they would have used it to their advantage over the rest of the surviving population. But we can all agree TLOU rocks!
I finished the game an hour ago and I'm still reeling from the ending, still teary eyed. The main thing I wanted to share is that in the hospital level I didn't kill any fireflies or doctors (I shot the surgeon in the foot) because some part of me wanted so badly to see Joel as a good man, even though I knew that after he kills Ethan he's crossed the Rubicon and there's basically no going back. It's like when someone you know shows him or herself to not be a good person but you do whatever you can to convince yourself otherwise.
And just like people in real life, you have no control over Joel's true nature. It almost seems sacrilegious classifying this as a "game" because of the emotional depth and brilliant storytelling because it made me feel similar to how I've felt after reading a Pulitzer-winning book or watching my favorite movies of all time. I can't wait to re-play this.
Ellie knew Joel was liying, she could see the levels Joel was willing to go to keep her safe to make sure she survives, Ellie was Joel's reason to fight and vice versa, it's deeper then a dependence, when you connect on that realm you can see past a lie, that's what i got out of it anyway.
I'd have to disagree. Not that your point doesn't have any merit but I just happen to see Joel telling the truth on his own perspective of what he saw and not lieing about it completely. I think the most important thing to remember is Joel hearing people have already died, who were immune, to find the cure. After that I thought Joel told her the truth, albeit one without the violence, but just left out the details. Why did he leave out the details? In my opinion it was to save Ellie from that guilt. There are things missing though, like Ellie not mentioning Marlene after leaving considering they were so close. That kinda bugged me. Regardless, I think Joel would have chosen Ellie over anything. Don't get me wrong though, I do really like the idea that he lied and Ellie knows it but she needed to believe the lie.
TheLowlifeXssassin I agree completely about her needing to believe the lie, wether she wanted to admit to herself. But remember she was unconscious the whole time from the tunnel to the end of the hospital, she never saw marlene and for that matter she probably thought she was long time dead from boston.
Honestly, I love how the ending went, because quite honestly, how Ellie and Joel behave during their final conversation is great. When Joel says that he swears everything he told her about the Fireflies is true, the camera cuts to Ellie's face. In that one shot, she just looks at him and you can almost see it in her face that she knows he's lying but is choosing to accept it because of how she's begun to warm up and care for Joel. I love the ending. It makes you think; what would you have done?
These guys remind me why I love and enjoy Adam Sessler's approach to game journalism so damn much. Perfect example of 'separation of the boys from the men.'
To me the reason Joel killed the fireflies and didn't let them do the surgery on Ellie is because even if you got the cure there would be no way of changing the world people would still kill each other because there would still be zombies Joel isn't a ''selfish prick'' he knew that they couldn't change the world and he didn't do the right thing he did the realistic thing he's no hero. He made his decisions as a flawed character and no matter what you choose you can't please everyone
maybe he didn't think of it so black and white like that. He is the spitting image of what humanity has become, morally broken. Right and wrong, fair and unfair, all of this didn't exist anymore. he did what he had to do to survive. And everyone left alive in the world had this same mentality. Even if there was a vaccine it wouldn't have changed their mindset. All the problems of the world wouldn't of went away. He had a chance to save the last piece of innocence he (and all of humanitiy) had in this world by saving ellie. She stood for so much more than a vaccine that wouldn't bring the world back to the way it was.
Great video. Sequel would ruin it. No sequel needed. And Joel's "listening" ability isn't a superpower or "gamey" like some people are saying. We can hear pretty damn effectively in reality, that mechanic just represented that.
Of course. But it doesn't matter how talented a studio is, if someone is FORCED to write a sequel for marketing purposes rather than actually conceiving a good idea for a sequel, it's going to be bad. If Naughty Dog announce a sequel because "they have to" like Colin suggests, it will ruin the first game (and I don't make that comment lightly).
nextpkfr I can't agree more with you. TLoU would suffer that same problem as Paranormal Activity, for example. (My opinion). I couldn't expect a better ending than it was, it was perfect. But you I don't know if you agree with me that we have indeed an ambiguous ending. In my point of view, Ellie pretended that believe in Joel's story. And knowing that fact that she knows that he lies about what happened at the hospital, how would she behave since then? I mean, she WANTED to give her body to the "better solution" if I am not wrong. Joel wanted to teach her how to play guitar in the future but she knows that she would die, that's why I think she was so quiet that time. Well I don't know... but I like discussing this. It was indeed a masterpiece. And don't judge me, I killed the THREE doctors :P
***** Agreed. So many people are afraid for a sequel even though they saw how amazing TLOU was they have ZERO faith in Naughty Dog to create another just as amazing or even better sequel. A bit silly in my opinion.
LogicalThinker7991 +Art Quest You guys are missing the point. A sequel is not NEEDED, and if ND make it purely for financial reasons it could well fail. I have faith that ND would never do that. If they do go back to The Last of Us, it will be because they have an idea where to take it. Not for money. A sequel for the sake of a sequel is a bad path for ANY company, regardless of their talent. And Uncharted is not the same thing as TLOU.
Right after that, there was a dialog where they were heading down the stairs, they were planning for their future after all the "tests" are done. there's a part where Ellie responded, "When this is over, we can go where ever we want" - along that line. It goes to show harvesting her brain for research is something Marlene kept everyone in the dark and something Ellie definitely did not sign up for. She wasn't quite resigned to her fate.
The apocalypse deprived people of feeling. People returned to their natural animal instincts. Ellie the one who couldn't get infected was the one who could return human emotion to other characters. (My thoughts)
This was by far the greatest game I have ever played, literally. The characters were so well written and acted, and it's the first time I genuinely cared about these characters (Joel and Ellie). This entire game was perfect.
In my opinion, Joel wasn't the bad guy at the end. He did what any human would have done, after they'd been 20 years of suffering all around you, and losing everything that you ever knew or cared about. Ellie was something for him to care about, something to keep him from completely giving up, and so he sacrificed what could be the only chance to save humanity, just so that he could live with himself, now that Tess had died.
Something no one noticed: The fireflies forced the surgery on Ellie. 1. Marlene clearly says that "she'd want this" not "she wanted this". 2. Ellie asks "what am I wearing?" indicating she never put on the gown. 3. Joel has to explain to her that they found the fireflies, and there were "other immune people" which she'd clearly know was a lie if she remembered anything after the accident in the water. The fireflies doomed themselves and mankind by not asking her/letting her say goodbye to Joel.
(Pt 1) This was the BEST game I've ever played. A lot of people are misunderstanding what Joel did. It's all in the title. Ellie was "The LAST of us". Not bc of her immunity. Because of her HUMANITY. The story was long. Very long, in fact. And the whole point of it being so long was to show that this world was FULL of HORRIBLE PEOPLE! From Robert to David to Bill to the ambushers to the Govt to the Surgeon & even Marlene who is willing to kill a 14yr old. Anyone decent in the game was killed.
In the ending scene i can't help but notice that Joel touches his watch just before he lies to Ellie as if to apologist to Sarah because he knows she'd be disappointed. Or at least that's what I think
why are they bitching about the ending? since the begining of the game all the way to the end they establish who Joel was, where he's coming from, losing his daughter, Tess and getting to know Ellie and getting attached to her and in the end of the game he would just let her die? After Ellie drowned Joel didn't even get a chance to see Ellie, maybe, just maybe if he did see her and she told him that this was her choice he would listen, just like when he left Tess behind, but having lost Sarah he wouldn't gave up Ellie like that no matter what. If those guys someday have a daughter I really doubt they would gave their daughter away for the good of the humanity
I think that Ellie would eventually turn into an Infected because if you notice at the end scene, her bite looked worse than how it did when she showed it to Joel and Tess.
Remember, Joel hesitated. He was the one who was having a second thought about the whole thing. Ellie gave him a boost of motivation to follow through, but it didn't mean she know what to expect once they reach the hospital. If you listen to the conversation as they were walking down the stairwell, it should tell you that they were already planning for their future after the whole medical testing is wrapped up.
Joel was never the bad guy for me. I think anyone who made the same connection with Ellie as he did, would have done the same. So, I was with him all the way.
I thought the same thing. That they had failed with many other people who were immune. And there was a very small chance for a cure. So I didn't mind joel saving her.
Exactly. Joel isn't good, nor bad. He even mentions that he's been on both sides of ambushes/raids. Neil Druckmann even stated that he is juat the average survivor. Druckmann took inspiration from his own daughter while creating this game. Losing his daughter is his biggest fear. He wouldn't give her up for the world.... neither would Joel.
I think one of the best concepts of this entire game is that whenever Ellie is in trouble or hurt, you don't think ''oh no the cure for humanity is in trouble'' you think of Ellie and protecting Ellie, as you get to like the character its so easy to forget about her immunity, its because of this I didnt feel even a slight amount of guilt when I killed all those fireflies in the hospital
The beginning of LOU greatly foreshadowed the end to come. Joel carrying Sarah to her bed, contrasted by him taking Ellie out of her hospital bed & carrying her. The fact that Joel told Tommy not to stop for the family on the road, even to Tommy telling him that they had a kid with them.. his response "so do we". Sarah saying "we should have helped them".. almost saying to her father, we should help humanity. Joel made his decisions a long time ago... he wasn't going to lose another daughter.
I haven't watched all of this, so I don't know if this was addressed, but two little secrets that really added on to the game for me. First: There is a stuffed giraffe in Sarah's room, and I feel that Sarah was on Joel's mind when they found the giraffes in Salt Lake City. When they first see the giraffes, Joel asks Ellie "Is it everything you imagined it'd be?" I was confused as to why Joel asks this......
Also, I felt like David was a reality check, Joel was just a bad as David. They both killed numerous amounts of people, only difference was that David just used the corpses for a different purpose which helped his people.
It's the small touches that count. The grafffiti on the wall, the people that were hanged, bunt corpses in an ally. It all tells a story and shows you the world you are in.
(Pt 2) Sarah was killed, Sam was killed. The game really hammered home the point with the whole "Ish" story going on in the underground sewer system. Ish clearly was a good guy and his "clan" was not only thriving but rebuilding a rudimentary society again and still were all eventually killed. David looked like a good man but was the most insane and savage of all resorting even to cannibalism. Ellie was the ONLY decent, kind, unaffected person in the game. Even caring for Joel when he was ill.
A major point to the whole "Is Joel the bad guy" argument they and other have missed is TIME. 1) Joel had what, like 3 minutes at best to decide to either leave without her or get her back. People who played the game had hours to reflect after the end credits. Joel had to make a rather hurried and forced decision. 2) It's safe to assume that Joel spent as much or more time with Ellie than he did even with his own daughter. The opening made it quite clear that he works late and has probably done so most of her life. 3) 20 years later! It's easy for us to make moral judgements and stand by them as we live in a somewhat normal society. Society in the Last of Us is anything but normal.
JOEL is not the bad buy, he had a choice save tthe person who means the world to him or to save the world,.. the fireflys werent really stand up ppl.. look at all the shit they were doing to the military and hell they wouldnt even let joel say goodbye to ellie... no father would give up their daughter to save the world,,, ellie was a daughter to joel and joel lied to her because he didnt want her to have that guilt or that burden to have to die to save the world..thats not really fair to kid... he lied to protect her.and deep down she knows that, that is why she accepts it.. Ellie was left behind her whole life and now she has a dad that is why she accepts joels lie..
That was actually discussed a lot on some website - it confused me too. If you actually listen closely to what the doctor says, along with some of the other artifacts at the hospital, it becomes clear the "dozens others" that the doctor was referring to were not immune like Ellie.
Joel is selfish and a bad guy because he saves Ellie? I would say the fireflies are selfish, they were going to sacrifice a human against her will for the greater good of mankind. That's not very civilized or democratic. And in the context of the new world they live in, lying doesn't all of a sudden make you a "bad guy". I don't know why everything is so black and white with you people.
The Interview with Nolan North that was mentioned around 33:00 was not actually on "Up at Noon" like said in the video. It's a separate clip called "An Uncharted Twist (The Last of Us Spoilers)"
I agree! I made a connection with Ellie, that was the ending that I wanted, it was sad but at the same time it left a smile in my face because I was happy that nothing happened to Ellie, i was sure that she would die, but she didn't so I loved the ending
The game is rated R, it isn't for a younger audience. It has gore and can be very challenging and the whole concept and theme of whats going on is mature and mind not be understood by a younger audience. admittedly I played it at 15 so not 18 as advised.
I believe Joel was able to open up to Ellie and regaining his humanity. The reason why he made the choice of saving Ellie was because he didn't want re-live the lost like he did with his daughter. Even if there was a cure created, the world would never go back to the way things were before the outbreak. Ellie, I believe knew that Joel lied to her about the fireflies, and they both had an understanding that they cared for each other that what matters.
One thing I am left curious about is what kind of person Joel was before shit got crazy. From the small amount of time we got to experience that he seems to be hard working, family oriented but doesn't have a lot of time for family, and overall a decent guy. Would of liked to know more so I could see how much he was truly changed by the outbreak & losing his daughter.
completed the game in 2 days, I have to say one of the best game every made, the story is amazing and emotional, Naughty dog allong with rockstarr games are the best developers and I CANT wait for uncharted 4!
This game is called The Last of Us for a reason. Of course there's the obvious implication that most of the human race is dead and that it's a story about the survivors, but the major running themes in the story are the finality of the choices people make under dire circumstances and the weight those choices carry because of the perils that fill this dangerous world. What would you do when pushed completely to the limit and there was no safety left in society to help govern the choices you make? Joel and Ellie are flawed characters as was already stated. They live in a different time and place where you don't have the luxury of a second chance to do anything you might do, one misstep is the difference between life and death. This is another long running theme in the story as evidenced by Robert, Tess, Marlene, David, Henry and Sam. To a different end, Sarah is another example of this. Joel likely blames himself for her death for reasons that are somewhat irrational to everyone else but him. He spends the entire story running from his past in every imaginable way, rarely talking about Sarah at all, ordering Ellie to refrain from talking about Tess after her untimely death (Tess is clearly another important person in his life, there is implied sexual tension between them). Fast forward to Tommy's camp, after being shown Sarah's picture that Tommy managed to retrieve from Joel's house, he appears to have a trying moment that he keeps to himself as evidenced by how he tries to pass Ellie off to Tommy and continue on with his life. It's made clear that Joel is connecting emotionally with Ellie on a level that reminds him of his relationship with Sarah and triggers a fight or flight reaction to the idea of staying with Ellie. Deciding to stick with her seemed to fully cement their father/daughter relationship. This moment of epiphany is when Joel finally begins to accept the loss of Sarah. After Joel's major injury, Ellie continues to try and nurse him back to health. While Joel has begun to see her as a daughter, it's implied that Ellie has never really known a parent and outwardly stated that her father left her life early on. The closest thing to a parental figure she's had is Marlene who has known her from birth, and she passed Ellie off onto two acquaintances for smuggling like she were a container of illegal items. It's unlikely that she'd develop the same kind of parental relationship with Joel in a few short months as she has with Marlene in 14 years so it stands to reason that she's acting as least partly in her own interest by saving Joel and keeping him alive. Ellie eventually reveals that everyone around her has either left or died, it's natural in that situation to develop fears of being alone. In the final chapters of The Last of Us, Joel is made to save Ellie from death at the hands of the surgeons even though it would damn the human race. Joel has no other option in his mind, he needs something to live for. He's spent 20 years running from the death of Sarah, it's unlikely he'd be able to continue on knowing he let Ellie die too when she is like a daughter to him too. At great cost he rescues Ellie. On the drive back to Tommy's camp he misrepresents the intentions of the Fireflies to Ellie because he loves her and doesn't want her to feel responsible for dooming the human race. Joel understands that's all on him and he considers it the easier situation to live with versus knowing he let Ellie die. To sum it up, Joel acted selfishly, he didn't save Ellie for humanity's sake, or even for Ellie herself, he saved her to make right his failure to save Sarah in his mind. When Ellie asks him if what he said was the truth, he lies to her and says it was. During this scene you can see in Ellie's face a look a horror. She knows Joel is lying on some level, we can see it in her eyes, but she refuses to admit it to herself. He's the last person she can rely on in her life and after losing everyone else she's ever cared about, she can't lose Joel too. And so she says "Okay."
what i would like in the single player DLC is to show tommy's story on what it was that made him leave the fireflies. they only said that he left the fireflies but never explored why.
Anyone that thinks Joel is a really bad guy has failed to really understand the nuances of the story and the complexities of the characters and the world in which they live in.
David reminded me a lot of the military guys near the end of 28 Days Later. I felt like the reason to keep Ellie alive is due to the fact that women are vital to the continuation of our species. Not saying that men are not, but having another female in his camp would increase the amount of time that they would be able to sustain themselves.
I think Joel made the only moral choice possible. Sacrificing Ellie would have been the wrong thing to do. The right to one's life is inalienable, no matter what. The fact that Ellie knew nothing when she woke up proves they gave her no choice in the matter.
6:46 It seems like a lot of people made the mistake of shooting the doctor with the scalpel. If you melee in his direction it goes into a small cutscene with Joel disarming the doctor and then jamming the scalpel into his throat. Absolutely epic and it sucks that it's missable.
I've played a lot of games that critics have considered masterpieces, but The Last Of Us is simply on another level. No game has moved me with it's story and engrossed me with it's gameplay quite like The Last Of Us.
about the swimming thing 1. Joel didnt really care for ellie in the beginning so that about a season gone 2. they cant just go out and learn how to swim. there are infected, clickers, bandits 3. it takes a while to learn how to swim and considering they MAYBE couldve practised durinf fall, not during winter and then pick it back up in spring, she wouldnt have been able to learn it in time i believe the biggest wtf was, how did she learn to drive before to learn how to swim?!
no he just cared about ellie because she filled the void for him about not having a daughter. but I do agree if she did die for the cure, it wouldn't help anything
My idea for a sequel was that it will be called The Last of Us 2: Escaping the Past, at the beginning, Tommy's camp gets invaded by infected, everyone is doomed. Joel, Ellie, Tommy, and Maria escape and try to find a new safe point. On that journey, they learn more about Ellie's past, like how did her mom die, was she murdered, and by who. Plus, we don't know much about Ellie's dad, so that could be something.
Me too. I think everyone thought that somewhere along the lines Joel was going to be bitten. Normally, when the main character dies, it's all sad and like "at what a cost it was to win". On the other hand, when the characters all live, its all relieving that it all works out. In this, both characters survived, but in a really uneasy, troubling kind of way. The end is not happy because the "hero" didn't sacrafice himself.
On that other point, not even a few hours after the outbreak, Joel has already gone into that survivor mentality (when they pass that family on the road, he just leaves them with the "its them or us" justification). He wasn't just a normal dad before; he was a very troubled person. All this is implied by the subtle nuances of his character before Sarah dies. So, in a sense, he could be using the outbreak as a way to escape society and normal life where he felt out of place.
I don't get why people think Joel was the villain or that they despised him,
personally to me Joel was the most honest & understandable character in the game, to actually reach that level of absolutes, the lengh he went to for Ellie
in the end was absolutely beautifull, i was with him 100% by the end of the game i understood completely why he made the choices he made, a vaccine wouldn't save the world it would only cause more segregation, greed & murder, Joel knew that people would find a way to adapt and some did (Tommy's group) just like he said
you just keep finding something to survive for, in short a vaccine was pointless.
Well done... well done. And thank you.
Finally someone I can agree with
Then why lie?
Joseph Morales "Then why lie?" To a 14 year old girl,
Walter Sobchak A mature young adult
I don't think she was ready to die, because Ellie talked about learning to swim and play guitar when it was "all over" so I believe she was expecting to live
Hunter Sherry good point.
They didn't touch on the part where Sam turns and Henry shoots himself. I thought that was a really, really powerful scene.
Holy heck WAS IT EVER! So, so powerful.
No
Not once, did I ever see Joel is as the bad guy.
Joel > Vader
He doomed the rest of mankind to save Ellie. Legit nothing wrong with that
Self defense gaming 101
That says more about you
I found myself playing this game by chance, and ended up finishing it in two days. Then I got online, and I have to admit that I have been blown away by all the hate towards Joel. To me, people who think Joel was the bad guy in the end really did not understand the game. The world in this game is completely different from the world we all live in right now. The standards are completely different. Yes, Joel killed people, but it is made abundantly clear that everyone else is doing that too!
The Fireflies left a bad taste in my mouth through the entire game. I found Marlene sketchy from the very beginning. The conflict between The Fireflies and the government is clear, and I honestly think that the Fireflies would have simply used the cure as a means to power. They might have used it as leverage against the government, who knows! Even if most of the Fireflies had good intentions, a cure for all of humanity is a lot of power for one organization to wield. The Fireflies are not necessarily the angelic good guys that so many people seem to think they are. And the game gives many hints that they are a sketchy group of people.
To me, the fact that they were willing to remove a 14 year old girls brain, without her permission, for a tiny chance at finding a cure just shows how far they had fallen from their humanity. They were willing to murder a young girl just for the slight chance of saving a world that had already gone to hell. A cure would have only made things messier. Also, the fact that they refused to simply let Joel speak to Ellie speaks volumes to me, as it majorly hints to the fact that they were killing Ellie without her permission and knew that if they let Joel talk with her, their entire plan would be shot to hell. They adamantly claim to be the "good guys," but their actions prove that they are just as flawed and untrustworthy as all the other characters.
And as for Joel's decision in the end, lying to Ellie is what any parent would do. This 14 year old girl literally had the weight of the world resting on her shoulders, and he gave her a way out of it by lying to her. No matter how screwed up the world is, a 14 year old girl shouldn't have that kind of responsibility placed on her. The Joel in the beginning of the game is a parent, full of humanity and emotion. And Ellie brings all of that back to him. Sarah was taken from him, cruelly and unnecessarily, and it obviously left permanent damage to him emotionally. He had no power to save Sarah, so after forming a father-daughter bond with Ellie, of course he's not going to willingly let her get murdered. Ellie said to Joel early in the game that she "wasn't Sarah" and basically told him that he wouldn't lose her the way he lost Sarah. And if Joel had let the world take Ellie's life, then guess what? He would have lost her the same way he lost Sarah.
Plus, what if Joel had let them kill Ellie, and it didn't help anything? Just like the other immunes that were killed by the Fireflies, what if Ellie died for nothing? It would have been completely on Joel. He would have had to deal with the pain of not only losing his first daughter, but willingly sacrificing his second daughter for a completely lost cause. Not to mention the immense amount of pressure he was under to either leave Ellie or save her, and I think he went with his gut decision, and it makes perfect sense that a parent's gut instinct would be to protect their child.
Joel was my favorite character of the game. Because he was flawed, but he had reasoning behind it. He opened his heart up to Ellie, and in the end felt such a strong emotional bond to her that he was willing to do absolutely anything and everything to save her. He was the character with the most humanity in the end, in contrast to the Fireflies who had lost their true sense of humanity. Joel saved Ellie in every way a parent should, and to me, that's a depressing yet beautiful thing.
So, in conclusion, a big "screw you" to all you who label Joel as the bad guy :)
Jay D Yes! That is so true. Everyone had their own motivations for their actions, but when you break down all of those different motivations, Joel's choice really was the most human choice of them all. The Fireflies were a lost cause, with little resources and no real power.
Jessica Davis Completely agree with everything you said. Joel is a classic anti-hero.
Gamers are so used to familiar game tropes, that it upsets them when games like this break the rules. Hang on...the human race wasn't saved?? Good didn't trump evil???
It's ridiculous because that isn't what the game is about. It was a brilliant case study of a broken mans journey and finally his redemption. The fact that Joel found a reason to live again in a world that has gone to shit was the perfect end for me. Most of the humans you meet that are still alive aren't worth saving either!
Jessica Davis Never have I read so much truth in a youtube comment. It's funny that people write how they hate Joel or that he's the bad guy. To be honest I would be wary of the man who would willingly sacrifice his daughter or any 14 year old girl for that matter. Pretty much means that I hated everyone's opinion in this spoilercast. I think anyone who doesn't understand now will understand if/when they have children of their own, no way would I sacrifice my little brother for the small chance of finding the cure.
CBMgoonerComps Yeah all of these guys in the video had a very immature response to Joel's decision. It's funny cos i too wondered if any of them had children of their own. It definitely makes you see the world in a whole new light, one you can't truly appreciate until you have a child of your own. You stop living purely for yourself, everything you do is for them and you would sacrifice yourself in a heartbeat if you thought it would save their life. The fact Joel has that taken from him, by someone he should have been able to trust, i.e the military who are there to protect, why is he going to let another military style organisation take his '2nd' daughter away from him too, The whole scene in the hospital where he is carrying Ellie in his arms, mirrors perfectly how he was holding Sarah in the beginning, and who was facing him both those times? Men dressed in military gear with assault rifles! No way on earth was he going to let history repeat itself!
+Rogan Miller All that you've said makes sense, and in Joel's position, one does not really have a choice. I agree. However, I also understand the opposing view. Imagine, you're with your family and you're best friend and his family - both of you have half of your families left. Your children scared. Siblings dead. Love ones in fear of hopelessness. Then, the fireflies come around and say they found a way to create a vaccine. But then, a man is trying to stop the vaccine for his own selfish reasons. You're telling me, with what's left of your family and your best friends family you'll be okay? The single chance you have left to save humanity, you're going to throw it away?
I'm just now seeing this video. Man, the nostalgia is real. Colin and Greg. Good stuff. Not to mention, one of my favorite games of all time.
People that think Joel is the bad guy generally are people who don't have children. Joel lost his daughter, he formed a connection with Ellie that was a father - daughter connection and he would walk through the gates of hell before he loses another child.
I don't even have children and I think I would've done what Joel did. No, I would've done what Joel did for sure.
ironic how the decision to save Ellie proves one's humanity, even though that decision will ultimately doom mankind.
+DashiSmash Dash there is no way the fireflies knew how to make a vaccine.
Billy Westley well yeah, I wouldn't say there was 'no way'. According to the game's narrative, there was a good chance.
i have a daughter, i rooted for him to shoot that lady. i was stoked when he made that call. good for him.
Regarding the ending, Joel doesn't know whether Ellie agreed to this, thus his parental instinct kicks in. He failed to save Sara, so he's trying to make up for it by saving Ellie.
When he lies about the truth, it's because he'd rather not disrupt the life he has with her. He's selfish, and you're supposed to feel bad for him, even though he does the wrong thing by lying.
I thought it was a perfect ending. Depressing yet bittersweet.
"he does the wrong thing" I disagree I would have done the exact same thing if I was in that situation! "Joel doesn't know whether Ellie agreed to this" it was obvious that she didn't because she would have ask to say goodbye to Joel before the surgery.
Question to IGN = how is removing the brain of a young girl against her will the right thing to do again?
Walter Sobchak I have to agree with you. I've seen too many movies and tv shows prior to this to know that when a shady character says "it's what she/he WOULD want", it's usually bullshit.
Robert Wild Ellie was never given a choice. I believe she was coerced to agree with whatever the Fireflies' belief for a cure. Marlene speaks with a forked tongue.
It's selfish and it's not. He probably could have told her the truth and she cares about him enough to where she might forgive him and they could go on with their lives. But by lying to her he's the only one that has to live with the guilt.
Ellie even says durning the gameplay.. after this we will go where you want.. do what you want to do.. So I know she didnt expect to be killed for a cure.
I thought Joel was a good father in the end. Every father would do the same thing as Joel and I agree with the ending
I don't think, Joel became the villain in the end. He became the most human survivor, alongside Ellie.
You can justify a lot of atrocities by saying "It's what she would have wanted" and "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In what world is it ever justified to cut out the brain of a child to possibly find a vaccine? And even if the fireflies asked Ellie for her permission - would that have been fair? Or would they have used her survivor's guilt to manipulate her into complying? Ellie isn't selfish, she might have gone along with it, because she couldn't have lived with herself if she thought, humanity was doomed because of her.
As soon as the fireflies got a hold of her, they drugged her. And they wanted to force Joel away at gunpoint. Those are not the actions of the good guys. When I played that Hospital-Level, I thought they would have taken Ellies brain out, even if she had screamed and begged for her life. It is implied in one of Marlenes recordings. The decision has already been made, her go ahead is just a formality.
So at the very end, when Joel lies to Ellie, he is partly selfish. Because he wanted to keep her alive so he could hold on to his restored humanity and he probably didn't want Ellie to think him a bad person for killing Marlene and the others. And partly, he is very selfless. Because he tries to spare her the guilt. He wants her to live a life, as happy as possible in this world. That's what every parent would do for their child. He knew, Ellies survivor's guilt would kick in and she would hate him and herself. He also knew, from a long life in the pre- and postapocalyptic world, that your views can change. You can't force a 14-year-old to make a decision like Ellie almost had on her hands.
I think, in the end, she knows or at least suspects, he is lying. She is partly disillusioned about him, but plays along. Because he offers her a way out. Even for a person as selfless as Ellie, sacrificing yourself is no easy decision. When she plays along with his lie, she has a way to justify being alive. He takes the burden of that decision onto his own shoulders. I'm just not too sure, if they can ever be as close again as they were during the Winter-Part.
Also, I think if the roles would have been reversed, Ellie would have saved Joel as well. She has already proven the lenghts she would go to, when she took on Davids crew for Joels sake.
Really well said. I'm not sure if Ellie would have agreed to die if they had asked. Remember just when we enter Pittsburgh there is an optional conversation you can have just after finding the comic on the bus and Ellie asks Joel if the Hunters killed all the people around them in the cars, Joel says no it was the Military to prevent any possible infected people getting into the city, and dead people don't get infected he says "you sacrifice the few to save the many" Ellie replies "that's pretty shitty" and Joel says "yeah"
Honestly, I think the two of them will be fine. Certainly Ellie must suspect Joel was lying about something, but not necessarily what. And in the end she knows that he cares about her and she cares about them. If he's not willing to tell her right now then she'll just have to trust him. After all they went through to get this far, I don't think holding some stuff back from her will keep them from staying close long term.
Joel had been a survivor and at the end he finally became a person on top of that. Had lost so much, but then finally had something to fight for. This was one sacrifice he couldn't walk away from.
Romance girl
If you are here in 2023 after the finale on hbo max you're a 🐐 *achievement unlocked*
Finished it 2 and half years late but still the greatest story I have played, almost brought a PS3 for it but glad I held out to PS4.
+Kiwi Gooner Ditto, as of 2 weeks ago for me :)
Same. Just finished about 3 weeks ago. Such a good game.
I finish it, 5 mins ago
Timothy Hobba yes they are, I'm about half through uncharted 4 right now.
+akaprince343 same just finished
I just finished the game. That hotel basement part was so scary!
I'm A4RON Yep shit myself during that part. you could just see infected running every now and then in the dark and when you turn on the generator that screech and a wave of infected come at you. Damn good game though.
In the end when Joel says " I struggled for a long time with surviving..." If you notice he touches his watch as he says it. For me showing how the watch reminds him of Sarah, and what's kept him going. Very symbolic game.
Joel could've saved the world but to Joel, Ellie was his world. He thought of her as a second daughter, and he had to take care of her for as long as he can.
He even explains it perfectly "I struggled a long time with surviving, but, you keep finding something to fight for" ... Ellie is all Joel has to fight for by the end. Yeah you can say he's being selfish, he is. But at the moment, without Ellie, Joel literally has nothing to live for anymore.
No
@@bitwawesome9696 yes...moron
I want a prequel. You have 20 years of Tommy, Tess and Joel's story that we can play through. How he met Tess, how Joel and. Tommy fell out
agree
theres so much stuff naughty dog an do with those 20 years
When I got into the room I shot two doctors and then one started screaming and it really bothered me when I thought about I had just murdered 2 people without even thinking about it and the last doctor screaming really made me realize how terrible what I just did was. Things like that are what make The Last Of Us my favorite game of all time.
damn, I crushed all 3 of them their skulls against the wall and I didn't feel a thing :/
I killed all of them and I do every time I play. The woman screaming she doesn't want to die... well I don't care because they didn't even ask Ellie they were just going to kill her. These guys call Joel a selfish prick, no he wasn't. Ok maybe he was selfish but we all would be if it was someone we loved. I don't see him as the bad guy in this, the fireflies to me were the bad guys, his lie was to protect her because she looked up to Marlene and to know that she gave the go ahead to kill her would devastate her.
GamerGalUK i burnt them to a crisp. because i was fucking pissed off,
skywarp34100 Nice :D
skywarp34100 How amazing is that? That the game was able to bring that out of you, which by the way is very scary - you, like everyone else, would kill given the circumstances presented to you.
Kinda sad they glazed over the Henry and Sam ending scenes. That was the most shocking, powerful and heartfelt scene in the whole game to me.
They were the equivalent of a Joel and Ellie and in another universe TLOU game they would of been the playable characters you would of cared for.
Two of the only really good relatable people you met in the whole game.
Joel made the decision the real parent would made for their child. (confirmed by Ellie letter from her mom, to find something to fight for to live). The parent conundrum vs saving humanity. Marlene promised Ellie's mom to keep her safe not to donate her to science.
+Satoru Lisenko BOOM! Nailed it!
Miss the old IGN
To the people bashing Joel, do you think you could sacrifice the person that meant the most to you for the world, your daughter? Your spouse? Your parents? Especially after losing someone already.
I think this game showed EVERYONE as the bad guy. The Military was opressive. The people who overthrew the military in their zones became murderers and hunted down innocents. Joel had been a hunter in the past. Bill indicated he was a pretty bad person and he admitted to Ellie he killed a lot of innocent people. Marlene was going to kill a girl she promised to protect. The Fireflieswanted to murder Joel after he brought Ellie to Salt Lake City..only Marlene stopped them. There is no proof killing Ellie would have provided a cure. There is no proof the Fireflies would have spread the cure. Joel's biggest mistake at the end was not letting Ellie decide. He was no worse than anyone else in his world. There was no bad..just a very grey situation. I agree, anyone who thought Joel was "bad" is being a bit myopic.
Joel lost two.. tess also
1:04:20 "So this one's gonna be rereleased to death on every PlayStation platform"
Anybody else here in 2023 (or beyond) after *finally* beating the third releaes of Last of Us on PS5?
PC but yeah...
Ellie turned into a daughter for Joel and he didnt want to lose another daughter.
you dont say.
Wow. What an amazing insight.
Joel didn't do the right thing he did the realistic thing.
Exactly, he's no hero. He made his decisions as a flawed character and no matter what you choose you can't please everyone.
I don't see how they think Joel is a bad guy. He's done some awful things but the most despicable hero in video game history? Not quite. All of that shit about the Fireflies is bollocks as well. To be honest, no one knows the Fireflies motives, they could have used that vaccine for anything, manipulating people, gaining power, etc. In a world where society has collapsed, people's motives obviously become unclear. They didn't just "turn evil" they just didn't give Ellie a chance and actually left Joel with no other choice.
r3zBoT No its made very clear that she did not know she was going into surgery. When she woke up in the car she asks "what am i wearing" because the last time she was conscious was just before she almost drowned. It also wouldn't have been explained to her before she met joel because she asks joel how they would extract the cure and he replies "they'll probably take some blood" so she is completely oblivious to what the firefly are doing. Ellie probably realises that he's lying because she wakes up in a hospital gown but "they've stopped looking for a cure" which doesn't make any sense.
Good lord Greg Miller, stop being so damn over-dramatic. Joel DOES NOT become the bad guy at the end. I'm pretty much a pacifist and if I was in Joel's shoes at the end, I would have wiped the place out as well.
17:08 "Cos Joel was being lazy or whatever." I don't think he was being lazy. The game opens up and it says 20 years later. It may not be the case but i took that to mean it was 20 years to the day since Sarah had died. He didn't go on the last job because on this day every year he drinks away his pain on the anniversary of his daughters death, that is how i read it.
Such a great game. Such a great story. I love the questions they pose at the end.
Ugh I hate how they immediately begin to bash Joel and bastardize the decision he elected to make by saving Ellie, rather than taking the risk of her dying, for the possible, not guaranteed chance of getting a vaccine! He may be a little selfish, but we all played the game! To those of you who support the negative light they put Joel under, put yourself in his shoes in the situation with every danger Joel and Ellie traversed, and tell me your bond with her wouldn't be strong enough to make you choose the same decision Joel ultimately made. I personally can say that I would have done the same thing because of how strong that bond had become, especially in that world, Joel was sort of the only thing Ellie had left. Just stating a different take on the ending, rather than immediately demonizing his selfish actions for saving Ellie, I think it was justified with reading some of the other posts with theories of the Fireflies intentions for the vaccine, we don't know if they would have used it to their advantage over the rest of the surviving population. But we can all agree TLOU rocks!
I miss Colin in a group dynamic. He’s well spoken and intelligent
I just think you guys are judging the characters by the standards of the world we live in today, not the world THEY live in.
I finished the game an hour ago and I'm still reeling from the ending, still teary eyed. The main thing I wanted to share is that in the hospital level I didn't kill any fireflies or doctors (I shot the surgeon in the foot) because some part of me wanted so badly to see Joel as a good man, even though I knew that after he kills Ethan he's crossed the Rubicon and there's basically no going back. It's like when someone you know shows him or herself to not be a good person but you do whatever you can to convince yourself otherwise.
And just like people in real life, you have no control over Joel's true nature. It almost seems sacrilegious classifying this as a "game" because of the emotional depth and brilliant storytelling because it made me feel similar to how I've felt after reading a Pulitzer-winning book or watching my favorite movies of all time. I can't wait to re-play this.
RaidersRock
I wish I could experience this game again for the first time.
Ethan was a POS.. deserved it and then some
Ellie knew Joel was liying, she could see the levels Joel was willing to go to
keep her safe to make sure she survives, Ellie was Joel's reason to fight
and vice versa, it's deeper then a dependence, when you connect on that realm
you can see past a lie, that's what i got out of it anyway.
Hadn't looked at it like that before... this makes more sense to me than anything else. Cheers.
I'd have to disagree. Not that your point doesn't have any merit but I just happen to see Joel telling the truth on his own perspective of what he saw and not lieing about it completely. I think the most important thing to remember is Joel hearing people have already died, who were immune, to find the cure. After that I thought Joel told her the truth, albeit one without the violence, but just left out the details.
Why did he leave out the details? In my opinion it was to save Ellie from that guilt. There are things missing though, like Ellie not mentioning Marlene after leaving considering they were so close. That kinda bugged me. Regardless, I think Joel would have chosen Ellie over anything. Don't get me wrong though, I do really like the idea that he lied and Ellie knows it but she needed to believe the lie.
TheLowlifeXssassin I agree completely about her needing to believe the lie, wether she wanted to admit to herself. But remember she was unconscious the whole time from the tunnel to the end of the hospital, she never saw marlene and for that matter she probably thought she was long time dead from boston.
Honestly, I love how the ending went, because quite honestly, how Ellie and Joel behave during their final conversation is great. When Joel says that he swears everything he told her about the Fireflies is true, the camera cuts to Ellie's face. In that one shot, she just looks at him and you can almost see it in her face that she knows he's lying but is choosing to accept it because of how she's begun to warm up and care for Joel. I love the ending. It makes you think; what would you have done?
Love coming back to this after the HBO show. It's so fun to see some of the talking points repeated and some be completely unique to each medium
These guys remind me why I love and enjoy Adam Sessler's approach to game journalism so damn much. Perfect example of 'separation of the boys from the men.'
To me the reason Joel killed the fireflies and didn't let them do the surgery on Ellie is because even if you got the cure there would be no way of changing the world people would still kill each other because there would still be zombies Joel isn't a ''selfish prick'' he knew that they couldn't change the world and he didn't do the right thing he did the realistic thing he's no hero. He made his decisions as a flawed character and no matter what you choose you can't please everyone
maybe he didn't think of it so black and white like that. He is the spitting image of what humanity has become, morally broken. Right and wrong, fair and unfair, all of this didn't exist anymore. he did what he had to do to survive. And everyone left alive in the world had this same mentality. Even if there was a vaccine it wouldn't have changed their mindset. All the problems of the world wouldn't of went away. He had a chance to save the last piece of innocence he (and all of humanitiy) had in this world by saving ellie. She stood for so much more than a vaccine that wouldn't bring the world back to the way it was.
I like your approach The Gamer girl.
Female
Great video.
Sequel would ruin it. No sequel needed.
And Joel's "listening" ability isn't a superpower or "gamey" like some people are saying. We can hear pretty damn effectively in reality, that mechanic just represented that.
I don't think so. I believe that Naughty Dog are very talent to screw the story.
Of course. But it doesn't matter how talented a studio is, if someone is FORCED to write a sequel for marketing purposes rather than actually conceiving a good idea for a sequel, it's going to be bad.
If Naughty Dog announce a sequel because "they have to" like Colin suggests, it will ruin the first game (and I don't make that comment lightly).
nextpkfr I can't agree more with you. TLoU would suffer that same problem as Paranormal Activity, for example. (My opinion).
I couldn't expect a better ending than it was, it was perfect. But you I don't know if you agree with me that we have indeed an ambiguous ending. In my point of view, Ellie pretended that believe in Joel's story. And knowing that fact that she knows that he lies about what happened at the hospital, how would she behave since then? I mean, she WANTED to give her body to the "better solution" if I am not wrong. Joel wanted to teach her how to play guitar in the future but she knows that she would die, that's why I think she was so quiet that time. Well I don't know... but I like discussing this.
It was indeed a masterpiece. And don't judge me, I killed the THREE doctors :P
*****
Agreed. So many people are afraid for a sequel even though they saw how amazing TLOU was they have ZERO faith in Naughty Dog to create another just as amazing or even better sequel. A bit silly in my opinion.
LogicalThinker7991 +Art Quest
You guys are missing the point. A sequel is not NEEDED, and if ND make it purely for financial reasons it could well fail.
I have faith that ND would never do that. If they do go back to The Last of Us, it will be because they have an idea where to take it. Not for money.
A sequel for the sake of a sequel is a bad path for ANY company, regardless of their talent. And Uncharted is not the same thing as TLOU.
Right after that, there was a dialog where they were heading down the stairs, they were planning for their future after all the "tests" are done. there's a part where Ellie responded, "When this is over, we can go where ever we want" - along that line. It goes to show harvesting her brain for research is something Marlene kept everyone in the dark and something Ellie definitely did not sign up for. She wasn't quite resigned to her fate.
The apocalypse deprived people of feeling. People returned to their natural animal instincts. Ellie the one who couldn't get infected was the one who could return human emotion to other characters. (My thoughts)
Had the second one spoiled... but after listening to this, I'm still brimming with confidence that the game will be amazing
same....I wish it wasn't spoiled for me maybe I would have liked it.
This was by far the greatest game I have ever played, literally. The characters were so well written and acted, and it's the first time I genuinely cared about these characters (Joel and Ellie). This entire game was perfect.
In my opinion, Joel wasn't the bad guy at the end. He did what any human would have done, after they'd been 20 years of suffering all around you, and losing everything that you ever knew or cared about. Ellie was something for him to care about, something to keep him from completely giving up, and so he sacrificed what could be the only chance to save humanity, just so that he could live with himself, now that Tess had died.
Something no one noticed: The fireflies forced the surgery on Ellie. 1. Marlene clearly says that "she'd want this" not "she wanted this". 2. Ellie asks "what am I wearing?" indicating she never put on the gown. 3. Joel has to explain to her that they found the fireflies, and there were "other immune people" which she'd clearly know was a lie if she remembered anything after the accident in the water. The fireflies doomed themselves and mankind by not asking her/letting her say goodbye to Joel.
(Pt 1) This was the BEST game I've ever played. A lot of people are misunderstanding what Joel did. It's all in the title. Ellie was "The LAST of us". Not bc of her immunity. Because of her HUMANITY. The story was long. Very long, in fact. And the whole point of it being so long was to show that this world was FULL of HORRIBLE PEOPLE! From Robert to David to Bill to the ambushers to the Govt to the Surgeon & even Marlene who is willing to kill a 14yr old. Anyone decent in the game was killed.
In the ending scene i can't help but notice that Joel touches his watch just before he lies to Ellie as if to apologist to Sarah because he knows she'd be disappointed. Or at least that's what I think
why are they bitching about the ending? since the begining of the game all the way to the end they establish who Joel was, where he's coming from, losing his daughter, Tess and getting to know Ellie and getting attached to her and in the end of the game he would just let her die?
After Ellie drowned Joel didn't even get a chance to see Ellie, maybe, just maybe if he did see her and she told him that this was her choice he would listen, just like when he left Tess behind, but having lost Sarah he wouldn't gave up Ellie like that no matter what.
If those guys someday have a daughter I really doubt they would gave their daughter away for the good of the humanity
+djericknaka joel made an understandable decision, doesnt mean it was the right decision, either way im not horrified by it, but maybe i should be....
I think that Ellie would eventually turn into an Infected because if you notice at the end scene, her bite looked worse than how it did when she showed it to Joel and Tess.
Remember, Joel hesitated. He was the one who was having a second thought about the whole thing. Ellie gave him a boost of motivation to follow through, but it didn't mean she know what to expect once they reach the hospital. If you listen to the conversation as they were walking down the stairwell, it should tell you that they were already planning for their future after the whole medical testing is wrapped up.
Joel was never the bad guy for me. I think anyone who made the same connection with Ellie as he did, would have done the same. So, I was with him all the way.
I thought the same thing. That they had failed with many other people who were immune. And there was a very small chance for a cure. So I didn't mind joel saving her.
your literally the only ones ive heard call him the "bad guy"
I hope you've learned the difference between your and you're in the last 2 years.
Joel said that he's not a Hero, he's a survivor... so stop complaining about bad guy thing. it's good to be a bad guy in a bad world.
Exactly. Joel isn't good, nor bad. He even mentions that he's been on both sides of ambushes/raids. Neil Druckmann even stated that he is juat the average survivor. Druckmann took inspiration from his own daughter while creating this game. Losing his daughter is his biggest fear. He wouldn't give her up for the world.... neither would Joel.
I think one of the best concepts of this entire game is that whenever Ellie is in trouble or hurt, you don't think ''oh no the cure for humanity is in trouble'' you think of Ellie and protecting Ellie, as you get to like the character its so easy to forget about her immunity, its because of this I didnt feel even a slight amount of guilt when I killed all those fireflies in the hospital
The beginning of LOU greatly foreshadowed the end to come. Joel carrying Sarah to her bed, contrasted by him taking Ellie out of her hospital bed & carrying her.
The fact that Joel told Tommy not to stop for the family on the road, even to Tommy telling him that they had a kid with them.. his response "so do we". Sarah saying "we should have helped them".. almost saying to her father, we should help humanity.
Joel made his decisions a long time ago... he wasn't going to lose another daughter.
I listened to this like 3 or four times in the first few weeks after it came out. It’s my favorite discussion of any game ever
same
I wish Ish was alive when you got to the sewers. He seemed pretty cool.
Ish escaped the sewers, there was a note in one of the houses afterwards, I don't think you find out what happened after that
One of the best games I have ever played, I like this detailed review because everything y'all are talking about is extremely true.
I haven't watched all of this, so I don't know if this was addressed, but two little secrets that really added on to the game for me.
First: There is a stuffed giraffe in Sarah's room, and I feel that Sarah was on Joel's mind when they found the giraffes in Salt Lake City. When they first see the giraffes, Joel asks Ellie "Is it everything you imagined it'd be?" I was confused as to why Joel asks this......
Does anyone else notice that Greg Miller is using the cup that Ashley Johnson gave him on his show Up At Noon?
This is my favorite game of all time.
I personally LOVED Joel. To me, he was one of the most human characters I will ever play.
Also, I felt like David was a reality check, Joel was just a bad as David. They both killed numerous amounts of people, only difference was that David just used the corpses for a different purpose which helped his people.
A Fabulous Fellow Joel was much worse than Joel, just sayin.
first game I was pissed about finishing
It's the small touches that count. The grafffiti on the wall, the people that were hanged, bunt corpses in an ally. It all tells a story and shows you the world you are in.
(Pt 2) Sarah was killed, Sam was killed. The game really hammered home the point with the whole "Ish" story going on in the underground sewer system. Ish clearly was a good guy and his "clan" was not only thriving but rebuilding a rudimentary society again and still were all eventually killed. David looked like a good man but was the most insane and savage of all resorting even to cannibalism. Ellie was the ONLY decent, kind, unaffected person in the game. Even caring for Joel when he was ill.
A major point to the whole "Is Joel the bad guy" argument they and other have missed is TIME.
1) Joel had what, like 3 minutes at best to decide to either leave without her or get her back. People who played the game had hours to reflect after the end credits. Joel had to make a rather hurried and forced decision.
2) It's safe to assume that Joel spent as much or more time with Ellie than he did even with his own daughter. The opening made it quite clear that he works late and has probably done so most of her life.
3) 20 years later! It's easy for us to make moral judgements and stand by them as we live in a somewhat normal society. Society in the Last of Us is anything but normal.
53:04 Well, you got your wish, right on time too!
JOEL is not the bad buy, he had a choice save tthe person who means the world to him or to save the world,.. the fireflys werent really stand up ppl.. look at all the shit they were doing to the military and hell they wouldnt even let joel say goodbye to ellie... no father would give up their daughter to save the world,,, ellie was a daughter to joel and joel lied to her because he didnt want her to have that guilt or that burden to have to die to save the world..thats not really fair to kid... he lied to protect her.and deep down she knows that, that is why she accepts it.. Ellie was left behind her whole life and now she has a dad that is why she accepts joels lie..
Spot on analysis
That was actually discussed a lot on some website - it confused me too. If you actually listen closely to what the doctor says, along with some of the other artifacts at the hospital, it becomes clear the "dozens others" that the doctor was referring to were not immune like Ellie.
That intro scene was the saddest scene... i have ever watched... teared up.
Joel is selfish and a bad guy because he saves Ellie? I would say the fireflies are selfish, they were going to sacrifice a human against her will for the greater good of mankind. That's not very civilized or democratic. And in the context of the new world they live in, lying doesn't all of a sudden make you a "bad guy". I don't know why everything is so black and white with you people.
I only killed the doctor I had to kill. Horrifically, I had the flame thrower equipped when I did it.
Joel is actually the best character in the game, and the one that I loved the most.
The Interview with Nolan North that was mentioned around 33:00 was not actually on "Up at Noon" like said in the video. It's a separate clip called "An Uncharted Twist (The Last of Us Spoilers)"
I agree! I made a connection with Ellie, that was the ending that I wanted, it was sad but at the same time it left a smile in my face because I was happy that nothing happened to Ellie, i was sure that she would die, but she didn't so I loved the ending
The game is rated R, it isn't for a younger audience. It has gore and can be very challenging and the whole concept and theme of whats going on is mature and mind not be understood by a younger audience. admittedly I played it at 15 so not 18 as advised.
The dude with glasses on the left hand of the video seems more cheerful when he was with ign. Now he's a total emo on kinda funny lol
Cara English hahaha I never caught that before
I believe Joel was able to open up to Ellie and regaining his humanity. The reason why he made the choice of saving Ellie was because he didn't want re-live the lost like he did with his daughter. Even if there was a cure created, the world would never go back to the way things were before the outbreak. Ellie, I believe knew that Joel lied to her about the fireflies, and they both had an understanding that they cared for each other that what matters.
And again, none of them say there are others like Ellie. The recording that I am referencing to clearly states that.
One thing I am left curious about is what kind of person Joel was before shit got crazy. From the small amount of time we got to experience that he seems to be hard working, family oriented but doesn't have a lot of time for family, and overall a decent guy. Would of liked to know more so I could see how much he was truly changed by the outbreak & losing his daughter.
completed the game in 2 days, I have to say one of the best game every made, the story is amazing and emotional, Naughty dog allong with rockstarr games are the best developers and I CANT wait for uncharted 4!
#ColinWasRight
53:04 #Altanowasright
This game is called The Last of Us for a reason. Of course there's the obvious implication that most of the human race is dead and that it's a story about the survivors, but the major running themes in the story are the finality of the choices people make under dire circumstances and the weight those choices carry because of the perils that fill this dangerous world. What would you do when pushed completely to the limit and there was no safety left in society to help govern the choices you make?
Joel and Ellie are flawed characters as was already stated. They live in a different time and place where you don't have the luxury of a second chance to do anything you might do, one misstep is the difference between life and death. This is another long running theme in the story as evidenced by Robert, Tess, Marlene, David, Henry and Sam.
To a different end, Sarah is another example of this. Joel likely blames himself for her death for reasons that are somewhat irrational to everyone else but him. He spends the entire story running from his past in every imaginable way, rarely talking about Sarah at all, ordering Ellie to refrain from talking about Tess after her untimely death (Tess is clearly another important person in his life, there is implied sexual tension between them).
Fast forward to Tommy's camp, after being shown Sarah's picture that Tommy managed to retrieve from Joel's house, he appears to have a trying moment that he keeps to himself as evidenced by how he tries to pass Ellie off to Tommy and continue on with his life. It's made clear that Joel is connecting emotionally with Ellie on a level that reminds him of his relationship with Sarah and triggers a fight or flight reaction to the idea of staying with Ellie. Deciding to stick with her seemed to fully cement their father/daughter relationship. This moment of epiphany is when Joel finally begins to accept the loss of Sarah.
After Joel's major injury, Ellie continues to try and nurse him back to health. While Joel has begun to see her as a daughter, it's implied that Ellie has never really known a parent and outwardly stated that her father left her life early on. The closest thing to a parental figure she's had is Marlene who has known her from birth, and she passed Ellie off onto two acquaintances for smuggling like she were a container of illegal items. It's unlikely that she'd develop the same kind of parental relationship with Joel in a few short months as she has with Marlene in 14 years so it stands to reason that she's acting as least partly in her own interest by saving Joel and keeping him alive. Ellie eventually reveals that everyone around her has either left or died, it's natural in that situation to develop fears of being alone.
In the final chapters of The Last of Us, Joel is made to save Ellie from death at the hands of the surgeons even though it would damn the human race. Joel has no other option in his mind, he needs something to live for. He's spent 20 years running from the death of Sarah, it's unlikely he'd be able to continue on knowing he let Ellie die too when she is like a daughter to him too. At great cost he rescues Ellie.
On the drive back to Tommy's camp he misrepresents the intentions of the Fireflies to Ellie because he loves her and doesn't want her to feel responsible for dooming the human race. Joel understands that's all on him and he considers it the easier situation to live with versus knowing he let Ellie die. To sum it up, Joel acted selfishly, he didn't save Ellie for humanity's sake, or even for Ellie herself, he saved her to make right his failure to save Sarah in his mind.
When Ellie asks him if what he said was the truth, he lies to her and says it was. During this scene you can see in Ellie's face a look a horror. She knows Joel is lying on some level, we can see it in her eyes, but she refuses to admit it to herself. He's the last person she can rely on in her life and after losing everyone else she's ever cared about, she can't lose Joel too. And so she says "Okay."
what i would like in the single player DLC is to show tommy's story on what it was that made him leave the fireflies. they only said that he left the fireflies but never explored why.
Anyone that thinks Joel is a really bad guy has failed to really understand the nuances of the story and the complexities of the characters and the world in which they live in.
+James Johnson i think you have failed to understand that people can have different opinions and have fully understood the "complexities"
i liked joel. I don't feel he is a villain
"He's a man and she's a female we know that much" hahahaha ohhh the irony in those lines now....
The golden age of IGN.
David reminded me a lot of the military guys near the end of 28 Days Later. I felt like the reason to keep Ellie alive is due to the fact that women are vital to the continuation of our species. Not saying that men are not, but having another female in his camp would increase the amount of time that they would be able to sustain themselves.
I think Joel made the only moral choice possible. Sacrificing Ellie would have been the wrong thing to do. The right to one's life is inalienable, no matter what. The fact that Ellie knew nothing when she woke up proves they gave her no choice in the matter.
6:46 It seems like a lot of people made the mistake of shooting the doctor with the scalpel. If you melee in his direction it goes into a small cutscene with Joel disarming the doctor and then jamming the scalpel into his throat. Absolutely epic and it sucks that it's missable.
I've played a lot of games that critics have considered masterpieces, but The Last Of Us is simply on another level.
No game has moved me with it's story and engrossed me with it's gameplay quite like The Last Of Us.
about the swimming thing
1. Joel didnt really care for ellie in the beginning so that about a season gone
2. they cant just go out and learn how to swim. there are infected, clickers, bandits
3. it takes a while to learn how to swim and considering they MAYBE couldve practised durinf fall, not during winter and then pick it back up in spring, she wouldnt have been able to learn it in time
i believe the biggest wtf was, how did she learn to drive before to learn how to swim?!
no he just cared about ellie because she filled the void for him about not having a daughter. but I do agree if she did die for the cure, it wouldn't help anything
Actually they said that yes, previous tests failed, but they also said Ellie is like nothing they had seen before
My idea for a sequel was that it will be called The Last of Us 2: Escaping the Past, at the beginning, Tommy's camp gets invaded by infected, everyone is doomed. Joel, Ellie, Tommy, and Maria escape and try to find a new safe point. On that journey, they learn more about Ellie's past, like how did her mom die, was she murdered, and by who. Plus, we don't know much about Ellie's dad, so that could be something.
Me too. I think everyone thought that somewhere along the lines Joel was going to be bitten. Normally, when the main character dies, it's all sad and like "at what a cost it was to win". On the other hand, when the characters all live, its all relieving that it all works out. In this, both characters survived, but in a really uneasy, troubling kind of way. The end is not happy because the "hero" didn't sacrafice himself.
When you don't have to deal with the loss yourself, it's easy to say you'll do the right thing. Joel isn't a villain, he's believable.
On that other point, not even a few hours after the outbreak, Joel has already gone into that survivor mentality (when they pass that family on the road, he just leaves them with the "its them or us" justification). He wasn't just a normal dad before; he was a very troubled person. All this is implied by the subtle nuances of his character before Sarah dies. So, in a sense, he could be using the outbreak as a way to escape society and normal life where he felt out of place.