For those wondering what’s likely going on here: the Vista Jet pilot probably suspected there would be a delay in picking up their IFR on the ground because taking off rwy 34 they are launching directly into the final approach when Seattle is landing to the south (as it was on this day). When you try and pickup your IFR on the ground, the tower controller is calling the overlying approach ATC facility to ask if there’s space for you to depart and in this case that’s going to be really challenging since arrivals into Seattle are going to be a conflict. When you take off IFR, the controllers have to maintain clearance between aircraft, there are several types of separation controllers use. Altitude and lateral separation come into play here. Aircraft at the same altitude must be kept 3mi lateral clearance. If they are using altitude separation, they must maintain 1,000 vertical clearance. Launching on RWY 34 and climbing to a pattern altitude of 1,500ft, the Vista Jet is right around the DGLAS fix on the ILS 16L approach in to Seattle. Aircraft on that approach will pass DGLAS at 1,900ft - see the problem? If the Vista Jet is departing VFR, they are responsible for their own terrain and obstruction clearances so that’s most likely why the Vista Jet thought this would be a great idea to help everyone and depart VFR then get their IFR on the right downwind. The problem seems to be that they didn’t make this well known to all involved before taking off and it caused mass confusion. A better way to do this would be to call up the tower at BFI or the approach facility (on the phone, not on the radio) and tell them “I know it’s gonna be a nightmare to launch me IFR with Seattle landing south, would it help your coordination if I were to maintain VFR until I’m in the right downwind? If they like the idea then have them give you the IFR clearance you should expect in the downwind so you can get it all programmed in (basically read me the CRAFT clearance but dont say the “cleared to” part and the aircraft should be on a 1200 code for departure off of BFI. This should look like the Vista Jet squawking VFR, everyone knowing what to expect, and requesting a right downwind departure from tower. They should be calling approach on COM2 and asking for their IFR as soon as they turn downwind and boom smooth as silk. However if approach doesn’t like the plan, they should just wait like everyone else. Problems on the ground only get bigger once in the air.
Thank you for that detailed explanation! I've always been curious about ATC operations, and now I understand that I'm completely ignorant about it, but I can enjoy it a little more.
Wow, I have encountered an unexpected hold before. The tower always gives me the details. You either sit or occasionally you agree to go out at a lower altitude and hope to get a higher level later. What a shte show!! Goes to show you that the British accent won’t always grease the skids!
Just unbelievable that this so called professional pilot thought he could pick up an international IFR clearance airborne!! That's got to be about a 5,000 nm flight! I am a retired airline pilot who flew on international flights and the thought that we would get our clearance after taking off is just mind blowing.
@@mattguthmiller right. I actually saw an explanation that made sense. Seems that they had to take the opposite runway than the active one, due to weight. And for that to happened, there would be a long delay under IFR. It seems the ground controller suggested a VFR departure, but he never told the tower controller and the pilots didn’t mention their intentions. I’m guessing they figure that ground would tell tower.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 right but they didn’t help talking about it the whole time like they were staying in the pattern or getting an IFR from approach while talking to tower
@@mattguthmiller oh, I agree. They did this totally wrong. I’ve picked up the occasional clearance in the air. But that was always from uncontrolled airports. I would never even consider doing something like that at an airport such as KBFI. The whole thing is just weird to me. The other thing is, if you depart VFR, you better know the airspace you are flying into. Obviously, these guys were clueless about the airspace in the Seattle area. This was just a bad thing to do, the way they did it.
Because they didn't want to delay departing on the other runway due to IFR delays in-trail delays. I worked for this company for a long time and they had no idea how to operate in the USA and always thought they knew better as 'the FAA' were inferior to their European operations. I remember this incident well and still they think they know they were in the right.. Controller should have told them to orbit for 5 hours then land
Do EU IFR flights typically get cleared in the air? I thought getting IFR clearance on the ground was a standard thing everywhere. One could possibly get away with doing this in less busy airspace, but thinking you could do it just under the Seattle bravo seems a bit ill-advised.
@@aviation_nut No they don't. Well, ONLY if you take off from a non-towered airport but, you have to get clearance on the ground first then, like in the USA you have an Expected Off Time. If your wheels are not off the ground by this time your clearance is cancelled. Basically, you are only allowed to take off if you have a slot on the airway with the required separation. Otherwise, you are barging in on other aircraft like idiots do when merging on the highways. The point here is what were they going to do if they could not get their clearance? Fly VFR ? I guarantee they did not have VFR charts on board as they did not know the limits of the airspaces. Vistajet have an attitude of superiority around the world, they bought or tried to partner with several companies in the USA and ran them into the ground trying to impose European rules on Americans ie 12r flight duty days instead of 10 hr, training on your OFF days etc.
Why the cloak and dagger? At first we thought he was going to remain in the pattern. This was almost a case of “Catch Me if you Can.” Now I really feel for the Athens controllers…
My sympathies to the controller and I hope they swapped him out after that _clusterfark_ caused by Vistajet 868. The urgency tone in his voice was quite frightening as I expect he was just waiting for a large noise in the sky to happen. I am grateful I never heard a tone like that when I was flying. He did a great job IMO.
That wasn’t caused by vista jet that was caused by the controllers They weren’t the ones that were being dumbasses. they wanted to take off from 32L instead of 14R for performance reasons (clearance of obstacles given their weight) and were told they could only do that as VFR. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”* Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
International flight decided they're just fixin to do it live lol....what a couple of chodes. I like how the controller treated them just like any closed pattern traffic.
Most likely too inpatient to wait for clearance or there may have been an EDC (expect departure clearance time). When then happens some pilots will take off VFR and try to get clearance in the air
As others have said, they're gaming the system to try and save time. I recall a similar argument between a biz jet and Seattle ATC a couple years ago that got pretty heated. Edit: Or... wait... is this that same incident from a few years ago?
@@joelcurtin9409 yeah they caught on to this trick many years ago. I myself used to pull it once in a while flying checks in barons, albeit that was at 3am and the sky’s were mostly clear. It’s a bit different in a large cabin turbojet. These guys screwed up!
What are the chance of not getting an IFR clnc. and having to circle for 5 hours in a complex airspace and land. Or land heavy and call maintenance inspection and mad passengers. Very professional.
where's the problem? takes you about 15 seconds. or you could make your life harder yourself and vector such a plane through a dense airspace for whatever reason.
As a pilot, zero issue. The IFR flight plan was submitted and taking off VFR into Class D airspace then getting IFR clearance is normal in most parts of the world.
Now he’s really messed up. He’s got an IFR clearance and controller giving him one heading, and a local controller giving him another. He really screwed that one up.
Close. The controller in the tower wanted them to land. The controller had no idea that the flight's destination was in Greece and wanted the plane on the ground while they figured out exactly how to get around traffic to and from Seattle. However, the plane has to fly 5 hours to burn off fuel to land safely, so the pilot won but probably got written up by the tower controller later that day.
They should've made them fly around the pattern for 5 hours to get to max landing weight, then land to pick up the IFR clearance. It also would've caused them to buy more fuel, which would teach them a valuable lesson for being such dumbasses.
you mean dumbass like the GND controller who was unable to communicate their VFR departure (which was GND's idea!!!) to TWR and therefore caused that homemade scene?
They weren’t the ones that were being dumbasses. they wanted to take off from 32L instead of 14R for performance reasons (clearance of obstacles given their weight) and were told they could only do that as VFR. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”* Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
I see a lot of comments that are made without knowing the whole story. I looked into it a bit, I still don’t have the whole story probably, but at least it’s some kind of explanation. Due to their heavy weight, they needed to take off from 32L. However, this launches them into the arrivals of SeaTac. On an IFR flight plan, that means they have to create “space” for them to fit into and since this isn’t easy, they could expect a very long delay. The clearance delivery/ground controller suggested they depart VFR. This way, they can depart immediately and stay visually away from that SeaTac traffic. It seems that the pilots assumed this controller would tell the tower controller what they were going to do, which was obviously not the case. That was their first mistake. The 2nd mistake is, they likely could’ve taken off from 14R, if the weather is that good.
Do you have tape of the GND/CLDR controller suggesting they depart VFR? I’ve been in and out of BFI for 20yrs as a corporate pilot, never heard anything so ludicrous. They know how busy that airspace is. If you have the tapes I will stand corrected
depart vfr for athens greece from seattle washington............ wow. im assuming he planned on landing somewhere along the way but hadnt made up his mind where.
They were headed to LGAV...Athens, Greece. The following was posted by another commenter several years ago: "The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controller did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to re-land. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to its heavy weight and minimum speed."
@@Sabre2165 Good info. I fly in and out of BFI frequently, and that Challenger 350 on final for 14R could easily have been me. This is very constricted airspace with its' proximity to SEA. The need to descend to 1000 over BFI is due to arrivals at SEA. Even a missed approach might have you descending before climbing. As this video progressed, I was wondering why someone would depart VFR for pattern work, then say they were departing for Athens Greece. Something was missing. I'm not sure what obstacles this guy was fearful of. Paths off both runways are fairly clean. He outsmarted himself and ATC at BFI did him no favors. He should have confirmed tower knew his true intentions. There is just no time to clean it up while airborne. I'm not sure why the crew asked to stay in the pattern. That just made this whole thing UGLY, and reenforced the thought of pattern work and not a departure. I do my best to not surprise ATC. There are times when a VFR departure is the only way to get out. SUN during the Allen convention is a prime example. VFR departure or wait hours to get an IFR. Depart VFR and get IFR airborne is the only way to go. AND they expect it. This was a cluster.
@@Sabre2165ooooo - your information makes me think - Good grief . Not good at all . Thank you for speaking up ! WTF ? The whole deal just sounded so stupid , I , I , huh ? Where at - traffic , pull up. Pull up - Beep beep 😢 how it happens .
@@Sabre2165 thats low. typically you would fly vfr out of such a situ, land somewhere and file your ifr. thing is that gulf flies above the natacs so he doesnt have to deal with tracks clearances. plane was made to skirt and abuse the rules
I commend the controller for not flipping out on this idiot pilot. How arrogant to think he can just call up and request an IFR clearance during flight with no warning to ATC.
No, ATC screwed them. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”* Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
There was a history before the whole mess (created by the "smart" Vistajet-crew") started; too bad that "Flight Follower" did not catch the whole picture and brought it up
GND had cleared him to fly a VFR pattern and then depart IFR. Somehow TWR ended up with the impression he would be flying a VFR pattern, landing, and then departing IFR.
How in the name of God did these two lads sitting at the pointy end of a jet think it would be OK to get an IFR clearance ONCE AIRBORNE for a flight to Greece! Thats some grade A level of stupidity.
@@goodshipkaraboudjandepends on what "parts of the world". An IFR clearance like this would involve not just US airspace, but Canadian, then the North Atlantic Track system, then flying though some of the busiest airspace in the world across Europe.
@@ChrisCooper312 they already had that clearance. But they wanted to take off 32L instead of 14R, which could only be done as VFR. GND gave them clearance to takeoff and fly a VFR pattern and depart IFR. TWR got that information and somehow decided that meant the jet would fly a pattern land and then take off again
Nope. Atc screwed up. they wanted to take off from 32L instead of 14R for performance reasons (clearance of obstacles given their weight) and were told they could only do that as VFR. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”* Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
What a DB, they should not be allowed into US airspace again. Of course, that's not what is going to happen, but they clearly wanted to dictate who was in charge of the airspace.
Americans 🙄 Atc screwed up. they wanted to take off from 32L instead of 14R for performance reasons (clearance of obstacles given their weight) and were told they could only do that as VFR. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”* Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
What the hell was this air traffic controller doing ? Was this just goofy , or plan stupid ? I can not see any plan whatsoever ! I will have to go with the stupid factor I guess . 😅 Damn - Not planned or thought through well at all --- embarrassing . Could have resulted in a mid - air collision … 😮 wow
For those wondering what’s likely going on here: the Vista Jet pilot probably suspected there would be a delay in picking up their IFR on the ground because taking off rwy 34 they are launching directly into the final approach when Seattle is landing to the south (as it was on this day). When you try and pickup your IFR on the ground, the tower controller is calling the overlying approach ATC facility to ask if there’s space for you to depart and in this case that’s going to be really challenging since arrivals into Seattle are going to be a conflict. When you take off IFR, the controllers have to maintain clearance between aircraft, there are several types of separation controllers use. Altitude and lateral separation come into play here. Aircraft at the same altitude must be kept 3mi lateral clearance. If they are using altitude separation, they must maintain 1,000 vertical clearance. Launching on RWY 34 and climbing to a pattern altitude of 1,500ft, the Vista Jet is right around the DGLAS fix on the ILS 16L approach in to Seattle. Aircraft on that approach will pass DGLAS at 1,900ft - see the problem? If the Vista Jet is departing VFR, they are responsible for their own terrain and obstruction clearances so that’s most likely why the Vista Jet thought this would be a great idea to help everyone and depart VFR then get their IFR on the right downwind. The problem seems to be that they didn’t make this well known to all involved before taking off and it caused mass confusion. A better way to do this would be to call up the tower at BFI or the approach facility (on the phone, not on the radio) and tell them “I know it’s gonna be a nightmare to launch me IFR with Seattle landing south, would it help your coordination if I were to maintain VFR until I’m in the right downwind? If they like the idea then have them give you the IFR clearance you should expect in the downwind so you can get it all programmed in (basically read me the CRAFT clearance but dont say the “cleared to” part and the aircraft should be on a 1200 code for departure off of BFI. This should look like the Vista Jet squawking VFR, everyone knowing what to expect, and requesting a right downwind departure from tower. They should be calling approach on COM2 and asking for their IFR as soon as they turn downwind and boom smooth as silk. However if approach doesn’t like the plan, they should just wait like everyone else. Problems on the ground only get bigger once in the air.
I think you summarized that situation pretty well.
Thanks for explaining the intricacies of this scenario. Very helpful.
Thank you for that detailed explanation! I've always been curious about ATC operations, and now I understand that I'm completely ignorant about it, but I can enjoy it a little more.
Wow, I have encountered an unexpected hold before. The tower always gives me the details. You either sit or occasionally you agree to go out at a lower altitude and hope to get a higher level later. What a shte show!! Goes to show you that the British accent won’t always grease the skids!
Great explanation! Thanks for this!
Just unbelievable that this so called professional pilot thought he could pick up an international IFR clearance airborne!! That's got to be about a 5,000 nm flight! I am a retired airline pilot who flew on international flights and the thought that we would get our clearance after taking off is just mind blowing.
Was the jet too lazy or too arrogant to get IFR clearance before taking off?
Nothing wrong with picking up any IFR, international or not, airborne, but holy cow, what did they think they were doing?
@@mattguthmiller right. I actually saw an explanation that made sense. Seems that they had to take the opposite runway than the active one, due to weight. And for that to happened, there would be a long delay under IFR. It seems the ground controller suggested a VFR departure, but he never told the tower controller and the pilots didn’t mention their intentions. I’m guessing they figure that ground would tell tower.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 right but they didn’t help talking about it the whole time like they were staying in the pattern or getting an IFR from approach while talking to tower
@@mattguthmiller oh, I agree. They did this totally wrong.
I’ve picked up the occasional clearance in the air. But that was always from uncontrolled airports. I would never even consider doing something like that at an airport such as KBFI.
The whole thing is just weird to me. The other thing is, if you depart VFR, you better know the airspace you are flying into. Obviously, these guys were clueless about the airspace in the Seattle area.
This was just a bad thing to do, the way they did it.
Because they didn't want to delay departing on the other runway due to IFR delays in-trail delays. I worked for this company for a long time and they had no idea how to operate in the USA and always thought they knew better as 'the FAA' were inferior to their European operations. I remember this incident well and still they think they know they were in the right.. Controller should have told them to orbit for 5 hours then land
Orbit for 5 hours at 1,500 feet would have been righteous.
@@encinobalboa yes it would 🤣
Euros are vastly superior to ‘Mercians. Until the Germans get frisky.
Do EU IFR flights typically get cleared in the air? I thought getting IFR clearance on the ground was a standard thing everywhere.
One could possibly get away with doing this in less busy airspace, but thinking you could do it just under the Seattle bravo seems a bit ill-advised.
@@aviation_nut No they don't. Well, ONLY if you take off from a non-towered airport but, you have to get clearance on the ground first then, like in the USA you have an Expected Off Time. If your wheels are not off the ground by this time your clearance is cancelled. Basically, you are only allowed to take off if you have a slot on the airway with the required separation. Otherwise, you are barging in on other aircraft like idiots do when merging on the highways. The point here is what were they going to do if they could not get their clearance? Fly VFR ? I guarantee they did not have VFR charts on board as they did not know the limits of the airspaces. Vistajet have an attitude of superiority around the world, they bought or tried to partner with several companies in the USA and ran them into the ground trying to impose European rules on Americans ie 12r flight duty days instead of 10 hr, training on your OFF days etc.
Why the cloak and dagger? At first we thought he was going to remain in the pattern. This was almost a case of “Catch Me if you Can.” Now I really feel for the Athens controllers…
My sympathies to the controller and I hope they swapped him out after that _clusterfark_ caused by Vistajet 868. The urgency tone in his voice was quite frightening as I expect he was just waiting for a large noise in the sky to happen. I am grateful I never heard a tone like that when I was flying. He did a great job IMO.
That wasn’t caused by vista jet that was caused by the controllers
They weren’t the ones that were being dumbasses.
they wanted to take off from 32L instead of 14R for performance reasons (clearance of obstacles given their weight) and were told they could only do that as VFR. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”*
Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
This is a repost of a classic. Yes outside of the USA it's not unusual to pick up IFR Clearance while in Class D.
I remember when this happened 5 years ago.
This is why controllers retire at 56. 🥴
International flight decided they're just fixin to do it live lol....what a couple of chodes. I like how the controller treated them just like any closed pattern traffic.
where's the problem with picking up IFR in the air? especially if GND recommended it to you.
Why won’t they let them fly IFR??
Curious to hear why these guys decided to depart VFR, especially out of airspace like that. Pretty terrible decision making on their part.
Most likely too inpatient to wait for clearance or there may have been an EDC (expect departure clearance time). When then happens some pilots will take off VFR and try to get clearance in the air
@@jbsack yeah I’m guessing that as well, still shocked they’d wing it like that.
@@Flysh24 that is 100% correct
As others have said, they're gaming the system to try and save time. I recall a similar argument between a biz jet and Seattle ATC a couple years ago that got pretty heated.
Edit: Or... wait... is this that same incident from a few years ago?
@@joelcurtin9409 yeah they caught on to this trick many years ago. I myself used to pull it once in a while flying checks in barons, albeit that was at 3am and the sky’s were mostly clear. It’s a bit different in a large cabin turbojet. These guys screwed up!
What are the chance of not getting an IFR clnc. and having to circle for 5 hours in a complex airspace and land. Or land heavy and call maintenance inspection and mad passengers. Very professional.
I could've sworn he was talking about Athens GA... but he was actually expecting an international IFR clearance airborne to Athens, Greece!
Athens GA has a small airport. I wonder how their tower would cope with this.
where's the problem? takes you about 15 seconds. or you could make your life harder yourself and vector such a plane through a dense airspace for whatever reason.
As a pilot, zero issue. The IFR flight plan was submitted and taking off VFR into Class D airspace then getting IFR clearance is normal in most parts of the world.
"We are max bank."
"That's nice. Are you able or unable?"
Now he’s really messed up. He’s got an IFR clearance and controller giving him one heading, and a local controller giving him another. He really screwed that one up.
What an absolute box of proper tossers.
I'm confused. A flight to Athens takes off from Seattle, but then wants to immediately land again? But has to fly 5 hours to burn off fuel?
Close. The controller in the tower wanted them to land. The controller had no idea that the flight's destination was in Greece and wanted the plane on the ground while they figured out exactly how to get around traffic to and from Seattle. However, the plane has to fly 5 hours to burn off fuel to land safely, so the pilot won but probably got written up by the tower controller later that day.
They should've made them fly around the pattern for 5 hours to get to max landing weight, then land to pick up the IFR clearance. It also would've caused them to buy more fuel, which would teach them a valuable lesson for being such dumbasses.
"You are going to Athens? Enjoy the trip. Maintain VFR, frequency change approved" 😂
you mean dumbass like the GND controller who was unable to communicate their VFR departure (which was GND's idea!!!) to TWR and therefore caused that homemade scene?
They weren’t the ones that were being dumbasses.
they wanted to take off from 32L instead of 14R for performance reasons (clearance of obstacles given their weight) and were told they could only do that as VFR. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”*
Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
That was close!
I see a lot of comments that are made without knowing the whole story. I looked into it a bit, I still don’t have the whole story probably, but at least it’s some kind of explanation.
Due to their heavy weight, they needed to take off from 32L. However, this launches them into the arrivals of SeaTac. On an IFR flight plan, that means they have to create “space” for them to fit into and since this isn’t easy, they could expect a very long delay.
The clearance delivery/ground controller suggested they depart VFR. This way, they can depart immediately and stay visually away from that SeaTac traffic.
It seems that the pilots assumed this controller would tell the tower controller what they were going to do, which was obviously not the case. That was their first mistake.
The 2nd mistake is, they likely could’ve taken off from 14R, if the weather is that good.
Do you have tape of the GND/CLDR controller suggesting they depart VFR? I’ve been in and out of BFI for 20yrs as a corporate pilot, never heard anything so ludicrous. They know how busy that airspace is. If you have the tapes I will stand corrected
Had to be a bust of the SEATAC SFC-100 Class B space, no? Was there a PPD?
no there was not
Well that was a waste of fuel.😂
no pilot deviation phone number?? He flew into the other airport airspace!!
“Elliot bay” and “space needle.”
depart vfr for athens greece from seattle washington............ wow. im assuming he planned on landing somewhere along the way but hadnt made up his mind where.
Athens, Georgia?
They were headed to LGAV...Athens, Greece. The following was posted by another commenter several years ago: "The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controller did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to re-land. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to its heavy weight and minimum speed."
@@Sabre2165 Good info. I fly in and out of BFI frequently, and that Challenger 350 on final for 14R could easily have been me. This is very constricted airspace with its' proximity to SEA. The need to descend to 1000 over BFI is due to arrivals at SEA. Even a missed approach might have you descending before climbing. As this video progressed, I was wondering why someone would depart VFR for pattern work, then say they were departing for Athens Greece. Something was missing. I'm not sure what obstacles this guy was fearful of. Paths off both runways are fairly clean. He outsmarted himself and ATC at BFI did him no favors. He should have confirmed tower knew his true intentions. There is just no time to clean it up while airborne. I'm not sure why the crew asked to stay in the pattern. That just made this whole thing UGLY, and reenforced the thought of pattern work and not a departure. I do my best to not surprise ATC.
There are times when a VFR departure is the only way to get out. SUN during the Allen convention is a prime example. VFR departure or wait hours to get an IFR. Depart VFR and get IFR airborne is the only way to go. AND they expect it. This was a cluster.
@@Sabre2165ooooo - your information makes me think - Good grief . Not good at all .
Thank you for speaking up ! WTF ? The whole deal just sounded so stupid , I , I , huh ?
Where at - traffic , pull up. Pull up - Beep beep 😢 how it happens .
@@Sabre2165 thats low. typically you would fly vfr out of such a situ, land somewhere and file your ifr. thing is that gulf flies above the natacs so he doesnt have to deal with tracks clearances. plane was made to skirt and abuse the rules
I commend the controller for not flipping out on this idiot pilot. How arrogant to think he can just call up and request an IFR clearance during flight with no warning to ATC.
These Vista pilots screwed themselves royally lol
No, ATC screwed them. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”*
Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
There was a history before the whole mess (created by the "smart" Vistajet-crew") started; too bad that "Flight Follower" did not catch the whole picture and brought it up
created by the "smart" GND controller you wanted to say, right?
🤯
I'd give him a holding instruction with an EFC time for 4.5 hours to work on his international IFR clearance.
GND had cleared him to fly a VFR pattern and then depart IFR. Somehow TWR ended up with the impression he would be flying a VFR pattern, landing, and then departing IFR.
unbelievablly non-professional the vista jet
How in the name of God did these two lads sitting at the pointy end of a jet think it would be OK to get an IFR clearance ONCE AIRBORNE for a flight to Greece! Thats some grade A level of stupidity.
It's not an issue in most parts of the world from Class D departures from VFR.
@@goodshipkaraboudjandepends on what "parts of the world". An IFR clearance like this would involve not just US airspace, but Canadian, then the North Atlantic Track system, then flying though some of the busiest airspace in the world across Europe.
@@ChrisCooper312 they already had that clearance. But they wanted to take off 32L instead of 14R, which could only be done as VFR.
GND gave them clearance to takeoff and fly a VFR pattern and depart IFR.
TWR got that information and somehow decided that meant the jet would fly a pattern land and then take off again
Title should read: "ATC causes chaos and confusion"
why didnt they just request to depart IFR on 14 instead of 32 if departing 32 meant they had to start off VFR.
After all this monkeying around, why not take off IFR from 14R? Seems like a lot of wasted fuel and time. KISS!
Obstacles are different, 14R requires a higher climb rate. Because of their weight, they were better off departing 32L
Wow!! What costly series of IFR planning failures by the Vista Jet pilots.
Nope. Atc screwed up.
they wanted to take off from 32L instead of 14R for performance reasons (clearance of obstacles given their weight) and were told they could only do that as VFR. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”*
Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
What a DB, they should not be allowed into US airspace again. Of course, that's not what is going to happen, but they clearly wanted to dictate who was in charge of the airspace.
where's the problem?
Vista jet🤡🤡
I don’t think I want to fly Vista Jet any time soon🤡
Guys all I can say 80 years down the line I will stick to driving my car. how any one can be so clever to understand ling go is beyond me🥰
Vista 868 pilot needs a pilot deviation and the company needs an FAA visit to tell them to not be a$$hats.
They would have issued one if they didn't knew that they (ATC) fucked this situation up by themselves.
Reminds me of Elaine's super annoying British boyfriend on Seinfeld.
The accent gives them false sense of superiority.
Brits 🙄
Americans 🙄
Atc screwed up.
they wanted to take off from 32L instead of 14R for performance reasons (clearance of obstacles given their weight) and were told they could only do that as VFR. *GND cleared them to “do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR”*
Somehow that got passed along to TWR as them doing a VFR pattern, _landing,_ and then doing an IFR departure.
What a shit show.
What the hell was this air traffic controller doing ? Was this just goofy , or plan stupid ?
I can not see any plan whatsoever ! I will have to go with the stupid factor I guess . 😅 Damn -
Not planned or thought through well at all --- embarrassing .
Could have resulted in a mid - air collision … 😮 wow
Pilots decide to deviate from the pattern on their own accord and the controller is the stupid one?... Stay in your lane, bud.
Stick to flight sim, clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.
@@ThatCenterController the controller was pissed and rightly so, they should have been violated.
I hope and PRAY you are NOT a pilot.
the jet was going to do a once around the pattern and land
This is very old incident!
I’ve never been impressed by these private jet drivers. It’s amazing more rich people don’t die.