If you have a charge weight that has such ridiculously low SD, why wouldn't you adjust bullet seating depth to find that other node for accuracy? After I found the lowest single-digit SD I started adjusted seating depth in 0.003" increments until the groups tightened up. This is what Erik Cortina was trying to emphasize in his channel.
protip: if you draw a line between the highest and lowest shots and then pick the highest flat spot closest to that average line, it helps you pick that early load. it makes it easier to focus on further development
Hornady 10th edition gives a max charge of 41.5 grains of H4350 for the 140 ELD-M. It’d be awesome to see how your SD is up closer to that range. I don’t have a chronograph yet but my best load development groups were “near” that max charge of 41.5 grains. No pressure signs using Hornady brass and 210M primers out of a Ruger American Predator
The 10-shot method works amazingly! I get an average of 6 or less for SD and no more than 15 ES, and that was before starting neck turning and full-length bushing sizing (using Redding Type-S). First found the method on the 6.5 Guys channel some time ago, and never looked back. Thanks for the great content Gavin, and keep shootin'.
Hey Gavin, I am a new shooter and new reloader. My gun (Howa 6.5 CM,1500, MDT ESS) is on the 28 day wait list (Australia), my reloading bench is ready and, after watching this video twice, (Along with lots of your other videos) I am finally ready to load today! Just to say thank you - you have been a great help and a huge inspiration. Thanks.
Another great tool that helped me is modeling software such as GRT, it uses a large data bank in its algorithms. Statistics such as percent powder burned for barrel length and twist rate, pressure normal distribution curve, etc.
This is the first time I have heard about this method. I'm excited to try it my self. Thank you so much for this information. I can't wait to see the other videos.
Hey gavintoobe! Good stuff man! Just a couple of questions and comments. 1. Do you think the time savings from using two different scales is worth introducing an unnecessary variable into your testing? 2. Did you consider shooting with each progressive string made from cartridges of incrementally increasing (or decreasing) powder charges? I think the methodology you used had the lowest charge with the lowest barrel temp and the highest charge at the max barrel temp. Not sure there would be a difference, but something to think about. 3. The load that provides the tightest group with the Magneto speed attached might very well be different than the load that provides the tightest group without the Magneto speed attached. So, velocity testing as you had done without simultaneous group testing is probably OK. If you switch to a LabRadar or optical chronograph, then I'd think about shooting groups at the same time.
1. yes, there's drift between the scales. with the advent of the autotrickler that variable is removed and loading is even faster. go check it out. caveat: your wallet might pass out. 2. ambient air temperatures have more effect on ammunition performance than chamber or barrel temperatures (higher temperatures equals lower air densities), you'd be surprised. as long as you don't let the ammunition sit in a hot chamber (or other very hot location) the effect is negligible. you really have to heat it to get a POI shift as a result of ammunition temps bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/07/how-ammo-temp-affects-pressure-velocity-and-point-of-impact/ 3. as for shooting for group size and location, it's difficult to interpret without a good coach or video cameras (and an objective eye). of course the group size and location will change without a magnetospeed hanging off the gun. but if you want to do both OCW and velocity (pressure) testing i'd recommend a dedicated chronograph and dedicated sessions to better illustrate whether or not your shots are shooter error, environmental, or load variation. a lot of folks are doing it, David Tubb and Wiser Precision both sell dedicated magnetospeed mounts to record data from total shots fired or you could drop $500 on a labradar. or you could shell out a little over $130 and buy QuickLoad software to help tune in to the desired chamber pressure. there are a lot of ways to determine a good load, he's just showing one way
I just want to say I've been following your videos for a little while now and I absolutely love them. I've been looking into reloading and for information about reloading 6.5 CM specifically. It's fantastic to actually see examples of what to do for new shooters like myself. A lot of RUclips's seem very guarded about what to do in a lot of cases, be it for safety reasons or what have you. I know I need to do more research but it gets be fired up to learn more! Thank you for being awesome.
After I watched an earlier video your review of the RCBS Chargemaster Lite, I purchased one after buying a Hornady powder measured; it was just too difficult to program my reason for RCBS buy. I love this unit, easy to program! So, I have another coming.
Very, very, very informative! This was an absolutely fantastic presentation on this topic. My only regret watching it is now I'm going to have to pull the trigger on purchasing an RCBS ChargeMaster...that thing is sweet! Thanks for helping me spend some money. :-)
Interesting testing for sure. I have been doing some testing and posting on my youtube channel on this same subject. My results seemed to indicate that the nodes moved after fire forming the brass.
Testing should be done with fire formed brass because it is in the same configuration that the actual loads will be as far as shape of case and volume. Consistency being the key to accuracy same case volume means one thing is consistent. Also I would advise annealing brass for consistent neck tension. Consistent neck tension leads to consistent load velocities and low SD. Good luck on the channel! Ill check it out some time!
Very interesting stuff Gavin, I will be trying this out as well with some 147 Gr ELD-M in my 6.5 creedmoor. Then if it proves to work well I will develop some rounds for my 7WSM to save some money on materials with more expensive Bullets and more powder. Great stuff! Bolt Action Reloading, your series has been great as well I really like trying to learn more about this with everyone else!
I don’t know about saving any money on components or time either for that matter. He already burnt through 60 rounds now and the time to make them and he hasn’t even shoot a group to test or confirm anything yet. Although, it’s a safe bet that almost anything he chooses is going to work well with that rifle and bullet/powder combo. Then, more time loading, money spent on components and gas driving to the range (for some of us) and testing. I couldn’t imagine doing this 10 round load development this way with say 338 LM or other expensive or overbore cartridges and just blasting all those rounds and money into a berm with no target and burning the barrel up. But I do hope everything works out well in the end.
Jiminico he added 4 extra shots to each charge to get a better idea of velocity the whole concept behind this is to shoot ten rounds, see a flat spot in velocity and load some for a test group. Hopefully 14 shots in you will have found a good load. Then play with seating depth if that applies to the bullet. 14 shots is not bad at all I commonly go through 50-100 trying multiple powders and charges
G'day sir from Eastern Ontario Canada lol Yup... went down the youtube's wormhole of your 6.5 creedmoor videos. As I've said before in one of your newer videos about the Hornady digital dispenser/scale, thank you.. and I am a new reloader.. I have a Howa 1500 APC chassis in 6.5 creedmoor I am loading for. Using factory load Hornady brass (American Gunner 140gr). I have a Hornady Classic single stage kit. Yes very basic, and Hornady Custom 6.5 creedmoor dies. Whenever I set the crimp and no seat, the brass is fine. If I seat and use the same crimp setting, the shoulder buckels and ruins the brass.. I've been using Hornady SST 123gr and Hornady Match 140 BTHP, adjusting the seating depth for each. I would like to get out to 1000+ yards at some point and possibly competition up here. But back to basics.. I need to figure out the die situation 😕 any chance you could do a crayon video for us new guys? Lol
Hi Gavin, the speed based method didn't work for me. I wondered if this kind of reloading methods were repeatable or not before trusting it. So I carefully made 3 times the exact same test on my .308w : each time I loaded 20 rounds with 0.2 grain increments and recorded the velocities with my magnetospeed. On the 3 curves it gave some "flat spots", but at different charges. If I average the 3 curves I just see a linear curve. So for me no reproducible results means no reliable method. Maybe I'll try this test on another rifle to see if it comes from the gear. It was the exact same cases, and same components. I also waited 1min between each shot to avoid barrel heating, and pulled the trigger imediately after loading to avoid to warm up the cartridge into the chamber.
I would have loved to see you shoot all of these over two different chronographs... I'm wondering about the accuracy of that instrument, along with the possibility that your observed "nodes" are really a factor of the chronograph rather than finding an actual node in the charge size/response. I also think the science would be better if you used fire formed, same-weight brass and bullet weight consistency. Always be questioning the data and the measurements, just as much as the method :-) Love the videos, thanks!
Is there a chance of false plateaus since the sample size is 1 for each load? There is some error in the chronograph (+/- 2 fps?) and some natural velocity variation (+/- 3fps?) that is not captured with a sample size of 1
I noticed your shooting is kind of fast. Your reloading the mag for 6,7,8,9 and 10. Which is going to cool some. Can this play a roll in temperature variation?
Start at max & work up watching for pressure, I replayed to be sure & you never mentioned backing off 5% etc then working up to max. Apart from that another well presented & informative guide, looking forward to OAL section next
Hi very interesting video on this way of reloading. I find it interesting that you found the low SD in the valley of velocity that has been my experience across a number of rifles and loads. But I have had a few rifle/load combos that had very close to a linear increase in velocity. Anymore I go mostly by SD and ES if it's a flat spot that great then tune seating depth and go to shoot. It may be possible to find a better group at 100 yds but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have good SD. Cheers.
Does barrel temperature play a factor in this? Are you allowing the barrel to cool between 5 shot strings? Your 5th shot will leave a drastically hotter barrel than the 1st shot. Would that affect the data? Ive always done load development with group size, keeping an eye on pressure signs, then chrono tightest group to confirm my velocity and SD. It’s worked well for me, but I want to try this. However, I also want to factor in all major variables that could affect the data.
When finding the right load for your rifle, use the same bullet through out. If you change bullets, even though the same weight, your data will change. Keep that in mind. Always enjoy watching your videos.
Great video. I just recently switched to this method of load development only I went with triplicates of each charge weight and I did 0.1 gr increments so I look forward to getting results from my first trial of 280 Ackley loads. It's interesting that you seem to have found a good node at 40.3 gr as I found a node using OCW with my 6.5 Savage BA Stealth at 40.1 gr running H4350, Hornady brass, 140 gr Berger VLDs and CCI BR-2. Maybe that's a sweet spot range for 6.5 CMs. Thanks again and look forward to future videos!
Great vids! Im just starting to try and find the right combo for my 6.5. I dont have a chronograph but Im thinking I desperatly need one. I had some great groups with 40gr of H4350, the book says Im going to get 2600fps. Seems pretty slow. What charge weight gave you the best groups?
So just to clarify, how many shots were you shooting at each charge weight? I'm sure you've also watched the Hornady podcast about group size statistics and dispersion. If they were shooting strings of 50 to 100 shots actually measuring these exact variables I'm more inclined to believe the results of the engineers and ballisticians at Hornady. Please don't interpret that as a slight against your methodology, but if an actual bullet engineer identifies that they've run these exact tests with larger sample sizes, I'm more inclined to believe those results, where they've identified that the idea of a "node" with regard to standard deviation and extreme spread is really just the result of the samples not being large enough to identify a true distribution. Just a thought, but thank you for the content!
Yes the science involved is interesting. I found out another way to play with extreme spread in single digits is to move seating depth in or out some once I found a muzzle velocity I wanted. You wouldn't think it would change much but in my results I loaded 44.2g varget 10 thousands from lands an 28 thousands off lands. Interesting enough the closer I got to the lands the higher the e.s. 35 to 40 fps. The loads at 28 thousands, single digits pushing 168g Berger 2,750 out of 22 inch barrel.
When you do your 10 shot load development how did you chose your CBTO for seating depth? Would you use recommended COAL or pick min or maximum jump that meets your min neck seating depth? if you are going to do tuning of seat depth to get better groups, does this tuning affect the 10 shot load development velocity nodes. What I getting at is if you seat the bullet deeper or further out I have read that seating depth affects pressure, does this change in pressure cause issues by changing the ES or velocity enough to make the 10 shot results invalid ? How do you chose seating depth for the 10 shot load development? Seems like a chicken or egg problem if both adjustments affect each other?
I’m loading small rifle primer 6.5 brass and used regular primers (cci400). Should I be using magnum small rifle primers (cci450)? For what it’s worth I’m using once fired federal cases, 39.6 grains of h4350 and Hornady 140 grain bthp
Great video Gavin. Just a question on reconciling the load development approach you outlined with seating depth? I assume you used the same seating depth to determine the optimum load in this video. How do you then factor in incremental changes to seating depth once you have an optimum load 'node' that has the lowest ES and SD? Do you then maintain the ideal charge and start changing seating depth, which then means another round of tests to determine the ideal seating depth mated to that charge. Struggling with this one...
@@yareelohim77 Gonna be something with H4350 in the 40 gr range and 147gr ELDM's in Starline brass with Federal Match primers.. But still have tons of factory to shoot... :o)
I bought the RCBS Charge Master 1500 with the hopes that it would speed the process of my load development. After about 35 rounds I abandoned it entirely due to inaccuracy as compared to my RCBS 1010 balance. The Charge Master would consistently be over/under one tenth as much as it was dead-on or metered an over-charge (RL-17). I found myself checking it against my balance so much that it was actually wasting my time. I just felt for absolute precision it wasn't the choice and it wasn't doing anything my Redding BR-30 couldn't do better. I'm open to thoughts and opinions.
I like what you're doing here but I think you need to re-shoot this test with fireformed brass. Your results will be different. Your SD's should go down overall (especially in the speed nodes) and you'll find your speed node charges will be different.
I noticed when you are seeding the bullet, you just do it in one stroke. Have you found that it makes a difference doing it that way, opposed to turning it 90° after a small pull on the handle, and then seating at home? I am referring to run out
Hi, so what AOL u do that 10 shot load development. Cause was thinking the jump is as important. So I start with jump tests and then go to powder weights or vise versa
How well do you think the Expanded Satterlee method would work for a semi-auto rifle? I've used the method on a bolt gun with excellent results but I was wondering whether there are too many variables and tolerances involved in a semi-auto for it to be effective or whether it can work just as well but will just yield larger SD's and ES's.
Good method. I'll try that. Quick question. I have the RPR 6.5 also. How much jump are you seating the eld's for and what is your CBTO measurement? I'm using the 143eldx for hunting. Best group I could get was at 42.2gr h4350. A little above redline. 2659fps ave. 10 shots
I like your methodology for precision but wonder why you didn't trickle charge up to your load weights on you auto powder measure. I have one of these auto powder measures and found that they tend to overshoot your target charge weight sometimes by 1/10 of a grain from time to time. If you are looking for extreme accuracy, those differences will skew your data. Nice video overall
How can I get a copy of the excel spreadsheet you created to produce your graphs?? I really would like to do the same but I’m not an excel expert? Thank you
Great video. I have been meaning to do something similar, the 10 single shot load development technique has always seemed to be missing the SD component of precision reloading. Looking forward to seeing if it relates to group size for your rifle also.
Not worried about how far off the LANS the bullet is seated? Also not marking the charge on each bullet? What happens if you spill the bullets out of the loading block? I put black dots on the primers. First 5 bullets one dot, second different load two dots and so on. I also record the charge for each in a log book. I have experienced bumping the box of bullets and 19 fall out.
I may just be missing the video, but did you have a pet load for your rpr in 243. I have one and can't seem to put together anything better than the Winchester 95g ballistic silvertip. I live close to sierra bullets and tried the new 110's, i'm sure the bullets are good but i couldn't get them to shoot. The engineer at sierra said to buy some 95's and some 4350 and call it good. Just wondering.
Very informative video. Interesting that I just finished the 10 shot series and had a flat spot at 40.6 grains of H4350. The only difference is that I used cleaned/resized/trimmed Hornady brass, where I FL sized with a Hornady die (minus the depriming pin) and expanded the neck with a Sinclair mandrel die. The brass had already been deprimed with a dedicated depriming die. I have a 5 shot series ready for my next range trip, so I can verify the node. Oh, and I did use CCI BR-2 primers. Honestly I don't know if that helped or not. I have performed the same method with Varget 35.9gr and that got me an 8.6 SD with a 22 ES. That's not bad but I'm hoping for better from the H4350.
Great video. I just finished with my 123 & 140 ELD M Varget loads in my RPR, the Ruger compensator and held half MOA's at 200 yds. I just got my hands on H4350 and 147 ELD M. I use the same method as you to achieve the best group possible. I don't have a crono yet, and wonder what you would recommend. Being that we are shooting the same rifle what do you like as a C.O.L, due to the magazine restrictions Thanks
I'm curious, I like your methodology and expanded 10 shot load test...what were the shooting results at the 4SD node? Did it yield the accuracy you expected?
I have some brand new starline brass as well. Most of it is slightly under 1.910. Will fire forming the brand fix this after resizing. I guess I don't know what to do about that??
My guess would be time. It takes a long time to shoot 10 5-shot groups (at least for me), especially when you're trying not to heat up the barrel. Also, there's no point in shooting for groups when your SD is high (generally you want 10 or less). So really, the only groups that would have been beneficial to shoot for him would have been the 39.5 and 40.3. Now since he has that data, he can take the time to go shoot those groups, and will more than likely load additional 5-shot groups at .1 increments to further narrow it down. After that, you can adjust bullet length, jump, etc.
Great video! I always appreciate the science you put into these load development videos. I always shoot 5 shot groups when working up a load usually two tenths of a grain apart. Sometimes I'll shoot two 5 shot groups for each load just to add more verification to the data. I also tend to shoot for groups on all of them even though that can be a bit tedious. Sometimes interesting results occur when looking at group size as well as extreme spread and standard deviation. I noticed you had to press a button to get the chargemaster Lite version to dispense. My full-size chargemaster automatically starts dispensing the next load as soon as the pan is back in place which is very convenient. I do like the idea of having two though . For heavy charge weights I sometimes am waiting on the chargemaster although I generally do charging, bullet seating and crimping all at once for each round so there's plenty of time to dispense powder.
I have the same chronograph and I never look at groups when using it. It is strapped to the barrel and changes the vibration dynamics. My Masterpiece Arms 6.5 Creedmoor, the groups open up slightly and are high compared to shooting without it. I always shoot at a target but disregard the groups when using the chronograph.
just curious as to what rifle you are using i use H4350 but my max is at 43 grains with a 140 elk match ruger precision Rifle 26 in barrel it is a one hole rifle and 2810 FPS also using large Fed 210's
Now that you are going to be testing a smaller range of charges, I agree with George Meinschein that your strings should progress through all the loads one shot at a time. Say, 5 loads at 5 charges (A-E). A1, B1, C1, D1, E1, A2, B2, C2, D2, ....... etc. Also maybe measure barrel temp and/or shoot at a specific interval to further mitigate the effect of barrel heating. As to the idea of using fire-formed brass, basically we all need to be developing TWO loads. One for the out-of-the-box brass and one for the fire-formed brass. They will be different. Might as well use the fire-forming process to work on your loading and marksmanship skills by developing the best performing load. As far as the variability of the 2 scales goes, you could always do crossover weighing of an arbitrary big scoop of powder. Agreement to 0.1 at 42 grains is nice, but the same agreement at 200-300 grains or even (10x) 400+ if it will fit in the tin cup would be even better. At 10x grains a difference of 1.0 grain would be the same as 0.1 grain at x total grains.
How have you liked the RCBS Chargemaster Lites? I noticed that your very first charge of 39.3 overthrew and it made no different indication of a normal charge beyond just saying over in small print. Case in point, you didn't even catch it in the video...
Hi There Gavin, I want to reload 6.5 Greedmore for my benchrest. What are the best primers for that configurations and I'm planning to use a very good LEE Press with a set of dies that will help me move forward in this project. What do U suggest?
If you are talking large primer -vs- small, check this out: www.starlinebrass.com/articles/download-65-guide/ - I discuss that in the section on reloading. Also- CCI benchrest primers are great both large and small.
First, let me say thank you and Bolt Action Reloading for the time and resources you put into your channels! I have been trying to figure out this phoneme, the increase in powder with no increase in fps. Anyone who is serious about reloading has experienced this. If you are familiar with Quick Load, it cannot predict this either. I am wondering if it is a combination of barrel time and barrel harmonics. If you find out let me known.
Steve Reynolds I believe this is due to case capacity differences. If you shoot two cases with one having slightly more case capacity then the other the one with more case capacity with a .1 or .2 increase in powder charge could be slower or the same velocity as the lower charge with less case capacity. Weight cases will not accurately predict internal h20 volume. It will only show consistency in brass weight which is good but measuring their h20 capacity is best practice.
Great choice on powder measure/scale. RCBS Chargemaster Lite outdoes the competition. Mine works great. I researched them all and the RCBS has much better results in not throwing over charges. The work up was great also.
Gavin, You did not do any concentricity checking in your video. If you get a chance one day could you do a test to see how much "concentricity" affects groups sizes as well.
They work very well, but I've learned that you can only get repeatable results if you let the unit warm up completely. Also best to calibrate each time... This is a great unit for the $$$$
Testing 224 Valkyrie in a bolt gun, I ran an OCW. Started at 21.0 gr of AR-Comp and went to 23.4 gr in 3-shot groups in 0.3 gr increments. I got low single digit SD's pretty much everywhere, but every 0.3 gr increase in powder had pretty much exactly 30 fps increase over the prior load. There were no "flat spots" in my velocity increase graph. It was a straight linear increase in velocity across the board. Any ideas?
OK, I am declaring shenanigans. How can you be using the optimal charge method when you have an extreme spread of 12 to 20? We are getting excited over a two or 3 ft./s movement from one load to the next when if we run 10 shots with that load we get 20 ft./s extreme spread. What’s the guarantee that we are not looking at the top feet per second versus the bottom feet per second in any of those Charge weights. Declare this shenanigans.
I wouldn't say that, but I agree on the fact that even 3 shot groups can give you true indications. I think that's the same thing for the speed E.S. and the group size : on 3 shots series, low E.S. or tiny groups mean nothing, but large groups or high E.S. means for sure that the load is bad.
@@blacksand9805 correct, 3 shot series can have one without the other and it wouldn't mean a thing. Sometimes low E.S. can still result in larger groups or vice versa. what I meant to say when I said I use 3 shot is that I run the same ladder test 3 times to confirm that the low E.S. has a tight group. If the E.S. is low but bad group, adjusting the jump should remedy group size.
looks like statistically insignificant data. Are you shooting at timed intervals for consistency? graph your change in speed by group shot number. I'm betting you data outliers on SD are your first shots from each group and you happened to get a hot load first at 45
In Glen Zediker's "Handloading for Competition" book, he says fire forming brass should be done with the same load using a heavy for caliber bullet and a full case. The Satterle load test with new cases is bound to yield significantly different velocities than you will ever see again with that same brass.
The first charge on the right scale was 1/10 over, possibly 2/10 since the Chargemaster is +/- 1/10. It would be nice if the display changed somehow so that an under/over was more apparent.
If you have a charge weight that has such ridiculously low SD, why wouldn't you adjust bullet seating depth to find that other node for accuracy? After I found the lowest single-digit SD I started adjusted seating depth in 0.003" increments until the groups tightened up. This is what Erik Cortina was trying to emphasize in his channel.
protip: if you draw a line between the highest and lowest shots and then pick the highest flat spot closest to that average line, it helps you pick that early load. it makes it easier to focus on further development
Hornady 10th edition gives a max charge of 41.5 grains of H4350 for the 140 ELD-M. It’d be awesome to see how your SD is up closer to that range. I don’t have a chronograph yet but my best load development groups were “near” that max charge of 41.5 grains. No pressure signs using Hornady brass and 210M primers out of a Ruger American Predator
The 10-shot method works amazingly! I get an average of 6 or less for SD and no more than 15 ES, and that was before starting neck turning and full-length bushing sizing (using Redding Type-S). First found the method on the 6.5 Guys channel some time ago, and never looked back. Thanks for the great content Gavin, and keep shootin'.
Oh YEAH!! Also just ordered 250 pieces of Starline brass and I have a bunch of CCI SRPs
Hey Gavin, I am a new shooter and new reloader.
My gun (Howa 6.5 CM,1500, MDT ESS) is on the 28 day wait list (Australia), my reloading bench is ready and, after watching this video twice, (Along with lots of your other videos) I am finally ready to load today!
Just to say thank you - you have been a great help and a huge inspiration.
Thanks.
Hell yeah, mate. How's it going so far?
All good mate, getting sub MOA (Sometimes!) Learning lots!
@@johnx9318 Good to hear, man! Sounds like you're having a good time too. Can't ask for more outta life. Cheers from the U.S..
@@Strelnikov10 Good of you my friend - and good-day from down-under!
Another great tool that helped me is modeling software such as GRT, it uses a large data bank in its algorithms. Statistics such as percent powder burned for barrel length and twist rate, pressure normal distribution curve, etc.
"We're kinda geekin' out here"
Sir, that is exactly why I'm here
Thanks! I've been learning a lot from you and diving further down the rabbit hole of precision reloading.
This is the first time I have heard about this method. I'm excited to try it my self. Thank you so much for this information. I can't wait to see the other videos.
I like this guy, he knows what he is talking about
Hey gavintoobe! Good stuff man! Just a couple of questions and comments.
1. Do you think the time savings from using two different scales is worth introducing an unnecessary variable into your testing? 2. Did you consider shooting with each progressive string made from cartridges of incrementally increasing (or decreasing) powder charges? I think the methodology you used had the lowest charge with the lowest barrel temp and the highest charge at the max barrel temp. Not sure there would be a difference, but something to think about.
3. The load that provides the tightest group with the Magneto speed attached might very well be different than the load that provides the tightest group without the Magneto speed attached. So, velocity testing as you had done without simultaneous group testing is probably OK. If you switch to a LabRadar or optical chronograph, then I'd think about shooting groups at the same time.
1. yes, there's drift between the scales. with the advent of the autotrickler that variable is removed and loading is even faster. go check it out. caveat: your wallet might pass out. 2. ambient air temperatures have more effect on ammunition performance than chamber or barrel temperatures (higher temperatures equals lower air densities), you'd be surprised. as long as you don't let the ammunition sit in a hot chamber (or other very hot location) the effect is negligible. you really have to heat it to get a POI shift as a result of ammunition temps bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/07/how-ammo-temp-affects-pressure-velocity-and-point-of-impact/ 3. as for shooting for group size and location, it's difficult to interpret without a good coach or video cameras (and an objective eye). of course the group size and location will change without a magnetospeed hanging off the gun. but if you want to do both OCW and velocity (pressure) testing i'd recommend a dedicated chronograph and dedicated sessions to better illustrate whether or not your shots are shooter error, environmental, or load variation. a lot of folks are doing it, David Tubb and Wiser Precision both sell dedicated magnetospeed mounts to record data from total shots fired or you could drop $500 on a labradar. or you could shell out a little over $130 and buy QuickLoad software to help tune in to the desired chamber pressure. there are a lot of ways to determine a good load, he's just showing one way
George Meinschein this is exactly why I switched to LabRadar. Nice to be able to group test while watching velocity at the same time.
How can I obtain an excel file of the 50 shot graph?
Awesome results Gavin, thanks for showing us how its done. keep the videos coming please.
I just want to say I've been following your videos for a little while now and I absolutely love them. I've been looking into reloading and for information about reloading 6.5 CM specifically. It's fantastic to actually see examples of what to do for new shooters like myself. A lot of RUclips's seem very guarded about what to do in a lot of cases, be it for safety reasons or what have you. I know I need to do more research but it gets be fired up to learn more! Thank you for being awesome.
Daniel- glad you are enjoying the content, and hope that you will start reloading, it's a lot of fun!
Thanks, Gavin. You have made reloading very interesting and something I look forward to doing.
Again thanks.
After I watched an earlier video your review of the RCBS Chargemaster Lite, I purchased one after buying a Hornady powder measured; it was just too difficult to program my reason for RCBS buy. I love this unit, easy to program! So, I have another coming.
Very, very, very informative! This was an absolutely fantastic presentation on this topic. My only regret watching it is now I'm going to have to pull the trigger on purchasing an RCBS ChargeMaster...that thing is sweet! Thanks for helping me spend some money. :-)
Interesting testing for sure. I have been doing some testing and posting on my youtube channel on this same subject. My results seemed to indicate that the nodes moved after fire forming the brass.
You can check it out here if you like. ruclips.net/video/RgGrRlB38CI/видео.html
Testing should be done with fire formed brass because it is in the same configuration that the actual loads will be as far as shape of case and volume. Consistency being the key to accuracy same case volume means one thing is consistent.
Also I would advise annealing brass for consistent neck tension. Consistent neck tension leads to consistent load velocities and low SD.
Good luck on the channel! Ill check it out some time!
Very interesting stuff Gavin, I will be trying this out as well with some 147 Gr ELD-M in my 6.5 creedmoor. Then if it proves to work well I will develop some rounds for my 7WSM to save some money on materials with more expensive Bullets and more powder. Great stuff! Bolt Action Reloading, your series has been great as well I really like trying to learn more about this with everyone else!
I don’t know about saving any money on components or time either for that matter. He already burnt through 60 rounds now and the time to make them and he hasn’t even shoot a group to test or confirm anything yet. Although, it’s a safe bet that almost anything he chooses is going to work well with that rifle and bullet/powder combo. Then, more time loading, money spent on components and gas driving to the range (for some of us) and testing. I couldn’t imagine doing this 10 round load development this way with say 338 LM or other expensive or overbore cartridges and just blasting all those rounds and money into a berm with no target and burning the barrel up. But I do hope everything works out well in the end.
Jiminico he added 4 extra shots to each charge to get a better idea of velocity the whole concept behind this is to shoot ten rounds, see a flat spot in velocity and load some for a test group. Hopefully 14 shots in you will have found a good load. Then play with seating depth if that applies to the bullet. 14 shots is not bad at all I commonly go through 50-100 trying multiple powders and charges
G'day sir from Eastern Ontario Canada lol
Yup... went down the youtube's wormhole of your 6.5 creedmoor videos. As I've said before in one of your newer videos about the Hornady digital dispenser/scale, thank you.. and I am a new reloader..
I have a Howa 1500 APC chassis in 6.5 creedmoor I am loading for. Using factory load Hornady brass (American Gunner 140gr). I have a Hornady Classic single stage kit. Yes very basic, and Hornady Custom 6.5 creedmoor dies. Whenever I set the crimp and no seat, the brass is fine. If I seat and use the same crimp setting, the shoulder buckels and ruins the brass.. I've been using Hornady SST 123gr and Hornady Match 140 BTHP, adjusting the seating depth for each. I would like to get out to 1000+ yards at some point and possibly competition up here. But back to basics.. I need to figure out the die situation 😕 any chance you could do a crayon video for us new guys? Lol
Hi Gavin, the speed based method didn't work for me. I wondered if this kind of reloading methods were repeatable or not before trusting it. So I carefully made
3 times the exact same test on my .308w : each time I loaded 20 rounds with 0.2 grain increments and recorded the velocities with my magnetospeed. On the 3 curves it gave some "flat spots", but at different charges. If I average the 3 curves I just see a linear curve. So for me no reproducible results means no reliable method. Maybe I'll try this test on another rifle to see if it comes from the gear. It was the exact same cases, and same components. I also waited 1min between each shot to avoid barrel heating, and pulled the trigger imediately after loading to avoid to warm up the cartridge into the chamber.
will love to see a class on sd's alone. thanks
I’ll be loading some of these shortly. Thanks for the video.
I would have loved to see you shoot all of these over two different chronographs... I'm wondering about the accuracy of that instrument, along with the possibility that your observed "nodes" are really a factor of the chronograph rather than finding an actual node in the charge size/response. I also think the science would be better if you used fire formed, same-weight brass and bullet weight consistency. Always be questioning the data and the measurements, just as much as the method :-) Love the videos, thanks!
Is there a chance of false plateaus since the sample size is 1 for each load? There is some error in the chronograph (+/- 2 fps?) and some natural velocity variation (+/- 3fps?) that is not captured with a sample size of 1
I noticed your shooting is kind of fast. Your reloading the mag for 6,7,8,9 and 10. Which is going to cool some. Can this play a roll in temperature variation?
Fantastic video. A great summary of load development!
Start at max & work up watching for pressure, I replayed to be sure & you never mentioned backing off 5% etc then working up to max. Apart from that another well presented & informative guide, looking forward to OAL section next
he was talking about starting at max for loading it and then working up shooting it
Gavin - Wow, no attribution or shout-out of information sources in the video or description?
Did you ever fire the 5 shot group with 40.3 g and see what your grouping was.
Hi very interesting video on this way of reloading. I find it interesting that you found the low SD in the valley of velocity that has been my experience across a number of rifles and loads. But I have had a few rifle/load combos that had very close to a linear increase in velocity. Anymore I go mostly by SD and ES if it's a flat spot that great then tune seating depth and go to shoot. It may be possible to find a better group at 100 yds but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will have good SD. Cheers.
You meant to say 4.3 standard deviation, we get it. Awesome video, it augmented the 6.5 Guys video very well. I watch both pretty much religiously
Does barrel temperature play a factor in this? Are you allowing the barrel to cool between 5 shot strings? Your 5th shot will leave a drastically hotter barrel than the 1st shot. Would that affect the data? Ive always done load development with group size, keeping an eye on pressure signs, then chrono tightest group to confirm my velocity and SD. It’s worked well for me, but I want to try this. However, I also want to factor in all major variables that could affect the data.
When finding the right load for your rifle, use the same bullet through out. If you change bullets, even though the same weight, your data will change. Keep that in mind. Always enjoy watching your videos.
Yes, that's totally true! Work on one variable at a time!!!
Awesome video. What's your COAL?
Great video. I just recently switched to this method of load development only I went with triplicates of each charge weight and I did 0.1 gr increments so I look forward to getting results from my first trial of 280 Ackley loads. It's interesting that you seem to have found a good node at 40.3 gr as I found a node using OCW with my 6.5 Savage BA Stealth at 40.1 gr running H4350, Hornady brass, 140 gr Berger VLDs and CCI BR-2. Maybe that's a sweet spot range for 6.5 CMs. Thanks again and look forward to future videos!
great video gavin.something i never thought of is barrel vibration at different charge weights.
OCW is a waste of everything...unless you do it this way. Glad to see someone do this
Great vids!
Im just starting to try and find the right combo for my 6.5.
I dont have a chronograph but Im thinking I desperatly need one.
I had some great groups with 40gr of H4350, the book says Im going to get 2600fps. Seems pretty slow.
What charge weight gave you the best groups?
6.5 creedmoor is kind of a slow cartridge. I look at that as a positive since long barrel life is important to me.
So just to clarify, how many shots were you shooting at each charge weight? I'm sure you've also watched the Hornady podcast about group size statistics and dispersion. If they were shooting strings of 50 to 100 shots actually measuring these exact variables I'm more inclined to believe the results of the engineers and ballisticians at Hornady. Please don't interpret that as a slight against your methodology, but if an actual bullet engineer identifies that they've run these exact tests with larger sample sizes, I'm more inclined to believe those results, where they've identified that the idea of a "node" with regard to standard deviation and extreme spread is really just the result of the samples not being large enough to identify a true distribution. Just a thought, but thank you for the content!
Yes the science involved is interesting. I found out another way to play with extreme spread in single digits is to move seating depth in or out some once I found a muzzle velocity I wanted. You wouldn't think it would change much but in my results I loaded 44.2g varget 10 thousands from lands an 28 thousands off lands. Interesting enough the closer I got to the lands the higher the e.s. 35 to 40 fps. The loads at 28 thousands, single digits pushing 168g Berger 2,750 out of 22 inch barrel.
When you do your 10 shot load development how did you chose your CBTO for seating depth? Would you use recommended COAL or pick min or maximum jump that meets your min neck seating depth? if you are going to do tuning of seat depth to get better groups, does this tuning affect the 10 shot load development velocity nodes. What I getting at is if you seat the bullet deeper or further out I have read that seating depth affects pressure, does this change in pressure cause issues by changing the ES or velocity enough to make the 10 shot results invalid ? How do you chose seating depth for the 10 shot load development? Seems like a chicken or egg problem if both adjustments affect each other?
I’m loading small rifle primer 6.5 brass and used regular primers (cci400). Should I be using magnum small rifle primers (cci450)? For what it’s worth I’m using once fired federal cases, 39.6 grains of h4350 and Hornady 140 grain bthp
Great video Gavin. Just a question on reconciling the load development approach you outlined with seating depth? I assume you used the same seating depth to determine the optimum load in this video. How do you then factor in incremental changes to seating depth once you have an optimum load 'node' that has the lowest ES and SD? Do you then maintain the ideal charge and start changing seating depth, which then means another round of tests to determine the ideal seating depth mated to that charge. Struggling with this one...
Just the video I wanted to see since I just (2 days ago) got a Tikka T3x Lite in 6.5 CRM... HA HA
Did you find a load for your Tikka? What barrel length you running?
@@yareelohim77 Gonna be something with H4350 in the 40 gr range and 147gr ELDM's in Starline brass with Federal Match primers.. But still have tons of factory to shoot... :o)
I bought the RCBS Charge Master 1500 with the hopes that it would speed the process of my load development. After about 35 rounds I abandoned it entirely due to inaccuracy as compared to my RCBS 1010 balance. The Charge Master would consistently be over/under one tenth as much as it was dead-on or metered an over-charge (RL-17). I found myself checking it against my balance so much that it was actually wasting my time. I just felt for absolute precision it wasn't the choice and it wasn't doing anything my Redding BR-30 couldn't do better. I'm open to thoughts and opinions.
I would have shot for groups on the 50 round test. Why didn't you?
Great stuff. Can't wait for the next video.
I'm going to move to groups next and take my time- this test was about quickly getting speed node data. :)
I like what you're doing here but I think you need to re-shoot this test with fireformed brass. Your results will be different. Your SD's should go down overall (especially in the speed nodes) and you'll find your speed node charges will be different.
Exactly. He had to start with new brass...better results with fire formed.
I noticed when you are seeding the bullet, you just do it in one stroke. Have you found that it makes a difference doing it that way, opposed to turning it 90° after a small pull on the handle, and then seating at home? I am referring to run out
Hi Gavin.
Witch powder did you use ?
H4350 i see on bench?
Hi, so what AOL u do that 10 shot load development. Cause was thinking the jump is as important. So I start with jump tests and then go to powder weights or vise versa
How well do you think the Expanded Satterlee method would work for a semi-auto rifle? I've used the method on a bolt gun with excellent results but I was wondering whether there are too many variables and tolerances involved in a semi-auto for it to be effective or whether it can work just as well but will just yield larger SD's and ES's.
Gavin. I would really like to see an episode loading the 6.5-06, using Superformance powder and Hornady's 153gn A-Tip bullet.
Good method. I'll try that. Quick question. I have the RPR 6.5 also. How much jump are you seating the eld's for and what is your CBTO measurement? I'm using the 143eldx for hunting. Best group I could get was at 42.2gr h4350. A little above redline. 2659fps ave. 10 shots
How can you load the eld-m bullets with out the special hornady seating stem??
I like your methodology for precision but wonder why you didn't trickle charge up to your load weights on you auto powder measure. I have one of these auto powder measures and found that they tend to overshoot your target charge weight sometimes by 1/10 of a grain from time to time. If you are looking for extreme accuracy, those differences will skew your data. Nice video overall
How can I get a copy of the excel spreadsheet you created to produce your graphs?? I really would like to do the same but I’m not an excel expert? Thank you
Great video. I have been meaning to do something similar, the 10 single shot load development technique has always seemed to be missing the SD component of precision reloading. Looking forward to seeing if it relates to group size for your rifle also.
How long you waiting between shots? Waiting for barrel to cool or just running 5 shots, cool, 5 shots, cool, etc.
Wow!! Great info!! Thx. How did the groups come out?
Not worried about how far off the LANS the bullet is seated? Also not marking the charge on each bullet? What happens if you spill the bullets out of the loading block? I put black dots on the primers. First 5 bullets one dot, second different load two dots and so on. I also record the charge for each in a log book. I have experienced bumping the box of bullets and 19 fall out.
I may just be missing the video, but did you have a pet load for your rpr in 243. I have one and can't seem to put together anything better than the Winchester 95g ballistic silvertip. I live close to sierra bullets and tried the new 110's, i'm sure the bullets are good but i couldn't get them to shoot. The engineer at sierra said to buy some 95's and some 4350 and call it good. Just wondering.
GREAT video, Gavin! Fascinating and very, very helpful!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great test Gavin how long did you wait between groups for barrel cooling?
Very informative video. Interesting that I just finished the 10 shot series and had a flat spot at 40.6 grains of H4350. The only difference is that I used cleaned/resized/trimmed Hornady brass, where I FL sized with a Hornady die (minus the depriming pin) and expanded the neck with a Sinclair mandrel die. The brass had already been deprimed with a dedicated depriming die. I have a 5 shot series ready for my next range trip, so I can verify the node. Oh, and I did use CCI BR-2 primers. Honestly I don't know if that helped or not.
I have performed the same method with Varget 35.9gr and that got me an 8.6 SD with a 22 ES. That's not bad but I'm hoping for better from the H4350.
Cool- what weight bullets are you running?
Hornady 140 ELD-M
Great video. I just finished with my 123 & 140 ELD M Varget loads in my RPR, the Ruger compensator and held half MOA's at 200 yds. I just got my hands on H4350 and 147 ELD M. I use the same method as you to achieve the best group possible. I don't have a crono yet, and wonder what you would recommend. Being that we are shooting the same rifle what do you like as a C.O.L, due to the magazine restrictions
Thanks
Excellent video. Hugely informative.. Thank you.
Hey Gavin, how far off the lands did you seat these test loads?
Another great video. Please keep them coming.
Thanks man!
I'm curious, I like your methodology and expanded 10 shot load test...what were the shooting results at the 4SD node? Did it yield the accuracy you expected?
So, what happened with this? Did it succeed or fail? The presentation suggests the beginning of a process. Did you follow it through?
I have some brand new starline brass as well. Most of it is slightly under 1.910. Will fire forming the brand fix this after resizing. I guess I don't know what to do about that??
Just curious...why didn’t you go ahead and shoot paper at 100 through the chrony. That way, you’d have all the data you need with just the 50 rounds.
My guess would be time. It takes a long time to shoot 10 5-shot groups (at least for me), especially when you're trying not to heat up the barrel. Also, there's no point in shooting for groups when your SD is high (generally you want 10 or less). So really, the only groups that would have been beneficial to shoot for him would have been the 39.5 and 40.3. Now since he has that data, he can take the time to go shoot those groups, and will more than likely load additional 5-shot groups at .1 increments to further narrow it down. After that, you can adjust bullet length, jump, etc.
Exactly- this is about quickly getting to a "zone" I can shoot groups with. :)
Great video! I always appreciate the science you put into these load development videos. I always shoot 5 shot groups when working up a load usually two tenths of a grain apart. Sometimes I'll shoot two 5 shot groups for each load just to add more verification to the data. I also tend to shoot for groups on all of them even though that can be a bit tedious. Sometimes interesting results occur when looking at group size as well as extreme spread and standard deviation. I noticed you had to press a button to get the chargemaster Lite version to dispense. My full-size chargemaster automatically starts dispensing the next load as soon as the pan is back in place which is very convenient. I do like the idea of having two though . For heavy charge weights I sometimes am waiting on the chargemaster although I generally do charging, bullet seating and crimping all at once for each round so there's plenty of time to dispense powder.
I have the same chronograph and I never look at groups when using it. It is strapped to the barrel and changes the vibration dynamics. My Masterpiece Arms 6.5 Creedmoor, the groups open up slightly and are high compared to shooting without it. I always shoot at a target but disregard the groups when using the chronograph.
J. Rob. I agree I do all mine at the same time. It doesn’t take much longer. If you are crunched for time do half one day and half the other lol
Trying to figure out a gpod load for my 6.5 right now. How do you go about C.O.A.L in a test like this?
Excellent job as always. Thanks.
Love the detail.
just curious as to what rifle you are using i use H4350 but my max is at 43 grains with a 140 elk match ruger precision Rifle 26 in barrel it is a one hole rifle and 2810 FPS also using large Fed 210's
Now that you are going to be testing a smaller range of charges, I agree with George Meinschein that your strings should progress through all the loads one shot at a time. Say, 5 loads at 5 charges (A-E). A1, B1, C1, D1, E1, A2, B2, C2, D2, ....... etc.
Also maybe measure barrel temp and/or shoot at a specific interval to further mitigate the effect of barrel heating.
As to the idea of using fire-formed brass, basically we all need to be developing TWO loads. One for the out-of-the-box brass and one for the fire-formed brass. They will be different. Might as well use the fire-forming process to work on your loading and marksmanship skills by developing the best performing load.
As far as the variability of the 2 scales goes, you could always do crossover weighing of an arbitrary big scoop of powder. Agreement to 0.1 at 42 grains is nice, but the same agreement at 200-300 grains or even (10x) 400+ if it will fit in the tin cup would be even better. At 10x grains a difference of 1.0 grain would be the same as 0.1 grain at x total grains.
How have you liked the RCBS Chargemaster Lites? I noticed that your very first charge of 39.3 overthrew and it made no different indication of a normal charge beyond just saying over in small print. Case in point, you didn't even catch it in the video...
Hi There Gavin, I want to reload 6.5 Greedmore for my benchrest. What are the best primers for that configurations and I'm planning to use a very good LEE Press with a set of dies that will help me move forward in this project. What do U suggest?
If you are talking large primer -vs- small, check this out: www.starlinebrass.com/articles/download-65-guide/ - I discuss that in the section on reloading. Also- CCI benchrest primers are great both large and small.
Gavin - is there a follow up video to this video? Which node came out with the best accuracy?
Thank you. Would you recommend this over hornady electronic or lnl. I'll be using for our new rpr. Also which dies.thank you Gavin
First, let me say thank you and Bolt Action Reloading for the time and resources you put into your channels!
I have been trying to figure out this phoneme, the increase in powder with no increase in fps. Anyone who is serious about reloading has experienced this. If you are familiar with Quick Load, it cannot predict this either. I am wondering if it is a combination of barrel time and barrel harmonics. If you find out let me known.
Steve Reynolds I believe this is due to case capacity differences. If you shoot two cases with one having slightly more case capacity then the other the one with more case capacity with a .1 or .2 increase in powder charge could be slower or the same velocity as the lower charge with less case capacity. Weight cases will not accurately predict internal h20 volume. It will only show consistency in brass weight which is good but measuring their h20 capacity is best practice.
Where do you test the group size of your smallest SD?
Does it matter how fast you shoot these shots? So does it matter how much the barrel heats up when measuring the velocities?
Great choice on powder measure/scale. RCBS Chargemaster Lite outdoes the competition. Mine works great. I researched them all and the RCBS has much better results in not throwing over charges. The work up was great also.
My Lyman never throws over
Is the regular charge master any better than the lite? Any difference is quality?
Gavin, You did not do any concentricity checking in your video. If you get a chance one day could you do a test to see how much "concentricity" affects groups sizes as well.
I'm thinking of getting the chargemaster lite over others. How do you like them. Not sure what die set though. Thoughts. Thank you for the video
They work very well, but I've learned that you can only get repeatable results if you let the unit warm up completely. Also best to calibrate each time... This is a great unit for the $$$$
Testing 224 Valkyrie in a bolt gun, I ran an OCW. Started at 21.0 gr of AR-Comp and went to 23.4 gr in 3-shot groups in 0.3 gr increments. I got low single digit SD's pretty much everywhere, but every 0.3 gr increase in powder had pretty much exactly 30 fps increase over the prior load. There were no "flat spots" in my velocity increase graph. It was a straight linear increase in velocity across the board. Any ideas?
Does new brass affect the speed node as compared to fire formed brass, seems like it would be better to do the test after fire forming?
What excel template did you use at 11.50. thx
Where do you buy those rubber bins the brass are in? I cant find them in that size.. grrrrr
OK, I am declaring shenanigans. How can you be using the optimal charge method when you have an extreme spread of 12 to 20? We are getting excited over a two or 3 ft./s movement from one load to the next when if we run 10 shots with that load we get 20 ft./s extreme spread. What’s the guarantee that we are not looking at the top feet per second versus the bottom feet per second in any of those Charge weights. Declare this shenanigans.
This method works all the time but I use three shots for each load. The low extreme spread always reflect tight groups.
I wouldn't say that, but I agree on the fact that even 3 shot groups can give you true indications. I think that's the same thing for the speed E.S. and the group size : on 3 shots series, low E.S. or tiny groups mean nothing, but large groups or high E.S. means for sure that the load is bad.
@@blacksand9805 correct, 3 shot series can have one without the other and it wouldn't mean a thing. Sometimes low E.S. can still result in larger groups or vice versa. what I meant to say when I said I use 3 shot is that I run the same ladder test 3 times to confirm that the low E.S. has a tight group. If the E.S. is low but bad group, adjusting the jump should remedy group size.
did you ever post a video of the groups that your load development was able to do??
looks like statistically insignificant data. Are you shooting at timed intervals for consistency? graph your change in speed by group shot number. I'm betting you data outliers on SD are your first shots from each group and you happened to get a hot load first at 45
In Glen Zediker's "Handloading for Competition" book, he says fire forming brass should be done with the same load using a heavy for caliber bullet and a full case. The Satterle load test with new cases is bound to yield significantly different velocities than you will ever see again with that same brass.
Thanks, yes, I've decided on different tweaks moving forward since I published that story :)
The first charge on the right scale was 1/10 over, possibly 2/10 since the Chargemaster is +/- 1/10. It would be nice if the display changed somehow so that an under/over was more apparent.
So 40.3 has the best ES-burn. Why would you change that? Why not move the bullet in or out .002 at a time to see if the group closes.