Street Epistemology: Jessie | Unpacking the Best Case
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Location: San Antonio, Texas
Recorded: 14 September 2017
Released: 24 September 2017
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Summary: Jessie is a Christian whose worldview has been shaped by the Bible and God belief gives her life purpose. However, even if we removed the Bible from her list of reasons, she would still hold a high degree of confidence in a God.
The email from Jessie was modified slightly for this video after she later emailed me and said that it was alright for me to include her first name in the video. Here is that original message in its entirety:
"Hello Anthony. My name is Jessie and we talked about my belief in Jesus this morning at the park. I've subscribed to your RUclips channel and I love your videos. Feel free to upload our conversation. I do request my face be blurred and name omitted to protect my privacy. I'd love to talk again sometime."
Special thanks to Jennifer Smith for narrating the email.
Mistakes:
Recorded w/Go-Pro. Edited w/PowerDirector.
The views addressed here are mine and mine alone, and are not necessarily shared by members of my family and friends.
#StreetEpistemology #Magnabosco #BibleContradictions #JesusChrist #Bible #Christianity #Deism #Purpose #AnthonyMagnabosco
The "their beliefs are false but mine is true *for me* " assertion never ceases to amaze me. The *true for her* should be as impactful to her as the "well it's true for me" is.
Keith, I can't begin to fathom it either. "it's not true, but it's true for her" WTF does that even mean???
That's because truth isn't important to her. Some people want to believe in things that are true. Most people want to believe in things that make them feel better. It's clear which category she is in.
I was expecting Anthony to whip out the box of Tic-Tacs lol.
5 minutes is just so short
I thought that would be a good time for Anthony to ask Jessie his very effective question, "Would you take your sick child to someone who 'believed' they were a doctor, or to a real licensed doctor?"
Hi Jessie. I used to be a believer much like yourself. 100%. Enjoyed your interview with Anthony. Early on , one thing you said brought back memories. I was convinced that without my god belief, that life would crumble, and make absolutely no sense. And, especially, because of amazing experiences that I had, I knew "that I knew" god was real and in me. ..That's it, I just wanted you to know I know how you feel, in your shoes. And that now I no longer share your faith, my life didn't crumble, and in many ways is very much better.
216TRIXIE YOU BASED YOUR CHRISTIANITY ON YOUR ( FEELINGS ) AND THAT IS WHY YOU FAILED TO GO ON.
@@whome4427 - Your auto-correct accidentally replaced "broke free" with "failed." You should edit that comment or else people may get the idea that you see intellectual honesty as a threat to religion.
@@notatheist NOTICE SHE DID NOT QUOTE ONE SCRIPTURE FOR BEING A CHRISTIAN, SO FAITH IN HER FEELINGS WAS HERE FOUNDATION
@@whome4427 - She also didn't quote anything from Winston Churchill, so that makes her an axis sympathizer, right?
I'd like to introduce you to the term non-sequitur.
@@notatheist CHRISTIANITY IS BASED ON REVELATION, NAMELY THE BIBLE, SO IF ONE IS A CHRISTAIN THAT PERSON WOULD GO TO THE BIBLE FOR PROOF AND NOT CHURCHILL, CHURCHILL IS NON-SEQUITUR.
Question: Why do you believe
Answer: Because I want to
these are the people who sit on juries deciding the fate of someone's life.
This is the kind of thing that scares me so much about the whole "personal truth" thing that a lot of people cite. Like "this is my truth" or "I don't agree with that other religion but it's true to the followers of it". Sometimes people's "personal truth" is that actual reality isn't actual reality. And in the case of voting or serving on juries or simply choosing where to spend money or how to treat other people, acting on one's "personal truth" rather than actual reality can have life-effecting consequences for the actor, their community, or society as a whole.
@@rynthorn1551 The only definition of truth that I can imagine to fit that usage would be that something is "true" when you stop being interested in whether it is wrong.
@@DigitalLibrarian love this!
Ffs, I never thought of that!🤦♂️
So if I can point out an inconsistency in your belief system (without even knowing you) would you say that you are disqualified to sit on a jury?
Jessie, if you're reading this, please ask yourself: if the Hindu girl used the exact same methods to believe that Vishnu is real, and she is wrong, then how can you be certain that Yahweh is real, and that you aren't wrong?
"Because I _Feel_ it in my heart." I'm only at 0:45 , And I know how she would answer
There's no way to argue with people that lack this much logic, it's really sad. If you have enough patience you can keep trying but they are lost.
I'm not a hindu, but Vishnu is not the "one true god" in their religion. What if both yahweh and vishnu are real? The existence of one doesn't preclude the existence of the other necessarily.
@@sandpine Fortunately, religions claim not only existence of Gods but many other things which contradict between systems. But it all comes to the question, what is the reason you think it's true
@@sandpine That's a very good point! Let's find ways to prove your theory, would we require double the amount of faith :-)
Hi Jessie! Thanks for allowing the upload. I really enjoyed your talk and your openness. I just wanted to say one thing: as a former believer, my life still has all the meaning it ever did, maybe more. I no longer have a belief that there is an afterlife, so this life is all I get. To me, it makes every day, every minute very precious when there is no eternity of days coming right after. Thanks again!
Logic? How dare u
I was watching/listening to Atheist Experience just before this. The tunnel vision of "belief" helps blind us to the rest of the world, I think. My vision is certainly widening. Sometimes it's hard. But better to see reality than fantasy in this life. I am so thankful there are others who can ask the right questions. There may be no answers, but I can guarantee most have never asked the questions. I'm just learning. At 65 I'm a baby.
Wow, that's very interesting. Is there anything in particular that initiated your transition?
Good questions are so powerful.
I hope Jessie watches this and examines your questions and her answers. Great conversation and polite gal. Hope you catch her again since she said she visits often.
Great conversation Jessie. I really look forward to a second one.
Spectacular conversation. I hope you see her again.
Would a bible study tell it's students what is contradictory? That would be like a sales person telling everything that is wrong with their product.
9:18 Those church and bible studies aren't about raising doubts. You can't teach bible study unless you cherrypick
A honest sales person that cares about their customer would do just that and they will probably have way less angry customers.
bkspicture You don't work with too many salespeople, do you?
OneEyedJack01
I worked as one for many years and that stores policies toward their sellers was that we should sell stuff as if you sell to a good friend.
We were encouraged to inform our customers of both the good, bad and even known problems with a product.
Even try encourage a potential customer not to buy in some cases.
Sure this store when a bit futhers then most but not informing custumers whats wrong with a product is not exacly great if you want repeat customers.
But that might work if there is no competition or don't compete fairly so you can sell way cheaper.
Calls to mind the Lenny Bruce routine entitled "Religions Incorporated".
I love her honesty and straightforwardness. Jessie, if you read this: Purpose and meaning are out there in many forms. They are in anything that you assign them to - community, love, family, achievements, making the world a better place. Don't feel shoehorned into the particular purpose that you see right now, there's so much more to put your energy into in this life. Oh, and read your bible. Like, really read it, from Genesis to Revelation, the good parts and the bad.
yellowpeteLoL
+
Jessie said she is 23- no wonder her friends are looking for a purpose. It is a function of their age.
Great conversation. It's so cool that she subscribed and is watching your videos. When she said there were no contradictions in the bible, I wanted to pull my hair out but you, cool as ever, didn't get bogged down in showing her how wrong she was. Your patience is amazing. Great work and keep planting those seeds.
It's a patient approach for sure lol. All in the aim of delving deeper. If I did it I would at least say "I don't feel that is true and we could delve into that, but I'm curious about bla bla instead".. and delve deeper that way..
otherwise they might feel they are justified since you didn't say anything at all to what they said.. when in reality you just didn't wanna get bogged down.
BUT! you can't do that sorry, my bad.. because you want to be impartial which helps a lot more than identifying yourself as the "other" or "opposition" or "enemy" lol. They will get more closed off. So really I'd only do that with people who already know I'm an atheist.
Or maybe instead of saying "I don't think that's true", say something more like "I would delve into that but I'm curious about bla bla", leave out the part about your own personal opinion, whilst still showing that there's more to what they said.. and still able to move on and delve deeper.
ANYWAY!
"I do believe in a god. I don't have any crazy beliefs."
The irony is thick right from the start!
You might consider asking if someone is on a jury determining the fate of someone's life in a death penalty case, ask them how they go about determining what is true and who is lying.
and then ask them why they don't use exactly the same methods for determining if God is true or not. since it is relative to a death penalty case as they believe not going to heaven is like death of the soul
Watching her reminded me of when I was a believer. I used to think there were no contradictions in the bible, and I agreed with everything in it including the slavery part... I reasoned it as indentured servitude, but I also believed it made people better, and I had my own spiritual experiences that made me feel even if it were wrong I would have still believed in god.... And that's exactly what happened I became a deist after realizing the Bible was not the word of god, but what led me to atheist was I realized thereis no difference in an undetectable god, and a non-existant one.
As far as the spiritual experiences I learned about brain functions, and how we see patterns, create narratives, NDE'S, feeling things are around us when nothing is, and much more.
Dizzinator2114
Thanks for sharing... I was never a believer and it's always interesting to me to hear about how ex believers became atheists...
This woman does not care about the truth. She only wants to believe what makes her feel good, and will shut out any evidence that points her in any other direction.
Thanks for uploading this insightful conversation, Anthony. You made my last couple of days by uploading so many videos. Can't wait for a second talk with Jessie :)
Jessie what about SLAVERY in the Bible as in (ONE PERSON OWNING ANOTHER PERSON)?????
I like your style man ...great genre. Street epistemology, I'm in. Thanks
Another good Anthony!
I thought you would go with "it's true to her", but the path you stuck with worked out well.
mad respect anthony!she is taken for a ride and she doesn t even know it.it s refreshing to see a smart, thinking american.you manage to make her reveal her typical religious double sometimes even triple standards.this interview should be used to educate all thinking atheists how to cleverly direct the conversation in such way that the interviewed does all the work illustrating their own fallacies.good work, a!
That was a great video and conversation! Thank you for agreeing to share, Jessie. While I disagree with your position, I did enjoy listening to the discussion while I am working. I always like this channel because it shows so strongly how the socratic method can help generate interesting discussion without being combative- even though it can be so tempting for either party to engage in a more direct exchange of rebuttals. This, instead, leaves people in a position to think about the foundation of their positions.
Great talk. Looking forward to the next one. :)
Jessie, I began reading at a very young age. Voraciously. That's how I became an atheist.
Try reading the Bible through as though it were a novel. Better yet, read the Skeptic's Annotated Bible. There are *literally* *hundreds* of contradictions.
I also began reading at a very young age, and in fact I read and understood the Bible before I was even old enough to talk (and several times in various translations since then, trying to find a way to believe in God in order to please my parents. Same results. I've spent my entire life as an atheist. Always keeping an open mind, but yes, the Bible is full of contradictions. Apologists make a living trying to explain them away, but no omniscient & omnipotent being would need his only means of communication to be filtered through such a faulty process, nor would such a being use such a limited means of communicating in the first place. Seriously, if God existed, he would be PERSONALLY responding to comments like this, both in print and otherwise, so that there would be no valid reason to doubt his existence or his nature.
“ I read and understood the Bible before I was even old enough to talk. “ (X) Doubt
Had it read 'to' you, very likely.
ATHEISTS DO NOT BELIEVE IN CONTRADICTIONS, SO YOU CAN NOT TALK ABOUT CONTRADICTIONS. BEING IN THE BIBLE
@@whome4427 atheist don't believe god claims - full stop!
What you stated at the end of your video is exactly what I cannot fathom. One of my friends claims to be a Christian and yet she despises the doctrine. I can't understand how someone can not see the fact that the whole fundamental belief is built specifically on the doctrine. Without the Bible there is no Jesus so how could she call herself a Christian?
Culture and history are tied in with religion, but are they synonymous with it? Can't one embrace their ethnic history and culture while not believing in the religion associated with their culture?
I'm not sure ethnic identity is primarily about self-identification. Being an atheist has never excused someone from being considered a Jew by the dominant ethnic group. During slavery and Jim Crow, I expect plenty of people would have non-identified with being black if it was up to them (and some people did-if they could "pass", which suggests that it was dependent on the identification by others).
Perhaps it would make more sense if we had different words for the religion of Judaism and the ethnic group, but we don't and that's not the fault of individual atheist Jews. Holidays are holidays and people celebrate them for many reasons, including community/family reasons that have nothing to do with the ostensible justification for the holiday.
living where i do, it's easy to forget how fanatical so much of this country is.
18:35
The SE facilitator's "Hmmm" said it all.
@Anthony Magnabosco Great interview! WOW
This is how epistemology should be discussed. Kudos!
It always amazes me when they say stuff like chakras and energy are "crazy" but a guy coming back from the dead cuz he's actually god is perfectly reasonable. It cracks me the fuck up and that's why I have such a hard time getting through one of these sessions.
A really good chat, one of the best I've heard and I hope Jessie returns to dig deeper into with you. I'm wondering if Jessie distinguishes between a belief in her diety and a belief in her Jesus or conflates them?
Very interesting conversation Jessie.
Anthony, Would have loved to have seen you use her atheist friend as the person trying to do the assessment of who was right between Jessie and the hypothetical Hindu. "If your atheist friend was trying to determine who believed truth, how could she find out?"
That's a good one.
adds a layer of motivation to persuade a friend...
That seems like a good idea. When she talked about her friend being closed, he could also have asked something like: "Has you friend tried to plant any seeds with you like you have with her? What would she tell me about how you responded to that?" It is good that she can have those conversations with friends and stay friends.
Your work seems to me pretty hard, Anthony. It's good that there are people like you doing this kind of thing tho.
Wow.
Jessie's email sounded like she is really open to explore her beliefs in a rational manner.
I'm happy for her.
19:01 "I've done all I can for her." *eye roll*
Excellent informative channel
:~)
from England
Sorry Anthony, upon reflection I did remove my comment after I posted it about Jessie mentioning 'faith' later in the video-- feeling it just wasn't a constructive observation to correct you when you said she made no mention of 'faith'. And for that I apologize.
And you are right. It really wasn't something she hung her hat on--and subsequently it really didn't present an opportunity for you to pursue further in any particular direction. of discussion.
Since then I watched your video talking to the Mormon couple.
An absolutely fascinating discussion!
I have now successfully convinced my wife to watch some of your videos instead of having her nose glued to CNN all day long!
why did you stop going to (public) University campuses? Just curious.
Brando Miranda Change of venue for hopefully older interlocutors. Plus, I’d likely have to sign up for a class to avoid getting bothered by campus security.
Anthony Magnabosco College is the perfect age to have an impact. Students are just beginning to mature into adulthood and they are open to new ideas. It seems the best place for maximum results. You can always survey a course. Comparative religion would be a hoot.
I'd certainly agree older individuals are less likely to change their mind. But there are plenty of us who did change our minds about things years after our college years.
I used to be heavily religious (Greek Orthodox Christian) but I couldn't keep myself convinced around Junior year in high school.
She needs to do a simple google search of bible contradictions!
Tombpolish
I don't think she really wants to know! lol
I think I'd have gone straight to my phone... Finish her. Fatality
And after an hour of discussion over what's a contradiction and what isn't, you'd have found out that that's not even essential to her belief and you just wasted your time. Good job! Besides that, if it's your goal to "finish" someone in talks like this, you're doing it wrong.
yellowpeteLoL and that's just it many believers could care less of the Bible has no contradictions that's just something they say as a cherry on top. However there are some like me who did. However something's I would still say I wouldn't consider a contradiction, but there are real contradictions in the bible that no amount of spins can change what's written there. For me this was one part that lead me towards being an atheist not entirely though.
Great video, Anthony. I hope Jessie really examines her beliefs and her own contradictions about spreading the gospel yet not wanting to engage with other beliefs - to let them believe what they want. While she agrees it's their right, she doesn't seem eager to lift a finger to discuss it unless "asked" by the non-christian.
This might sound odd, but it's been bugging me for a while. Anthony, how come your
"Magnabosco 2.0" isn't on your card and you have to write it on with that fat marker each time? Did you order cards and then change the channel, or what? Not a big deal; just something I keep noticing.
And of course, keep up the amazing work. Always excited when a new vid pops up.
Red Hunteur No, these are the original cards that I’ve been using for probably three years now. I prefer this setup mainly because I’m not keen on my interlocutor watching their own video if there’s a good chance will meet again for a follow up. My preference is that they eventually watch their video, but with enough time in between for me to have a couple of good conversations without the influence of (potentially inflammatory or unproductive) RUclips comments, for example. I did, however, leave the back of the card blank for this very purpose. Plus, I’m thinking now after watching me scrawl out the channel name (magnabosco210) that it may also be a good way to promote the channel to viewers :-)
Okay, that makes sense. Just a curiosity that was nagging me. Thanks for the response. Cheers, mate!
Welcome to the channel Jessie!
Do i ask myself easy questions to cope when im asked difficult questions? I do
Please stay this respectful. Nice conversation
"If I didn't believe in a god, then my life wouldn't have purpose". That isn't a reason to think that something is true. That's a reason to think that something is emotionally appealing.
5:08 "There's nothing in there (the bible) that I object to". I had to backtrack to hear that again because I thought I'd misheard. Has she read the bloody thing?
That's how I'd start out too lol. You never know what someone is going to do after they record you.. the video could be horrible with heaps of editing, and you don't fully know what the talk is going to be like yet.. sometimes they edit you to sound really dumb or whatever they want... Also there's often at least a few shitty comments that they didn't sign up for. So It's a good thing Anthony isn't like that lol.
This was a great conversation and I'm really looking forward to more talks with her, which sounds likely. I'm glad she likes the content too! pretty awesome.
I prefer the college interviews. The interviewees tend to be more entertaining.
I would have liked to see you investigate the dream as a reliable source of evidence. That would have been entertaining.
Interesting channel...
. *spends 4 months this watching all these videos
The interviews at college seemed so much more honest, articulate, and entertaining. When people get older it seems there is a tendency for being more closed minded and dishonest.
I think you should have explored this idea of purpose. She mentioned it several times and she mentioned a few times the "can't be an accident" thing, which I often see come together, I think these are two faces of the same coin.
Something like: "Is something true because it gives you a purpose?" would have been my direction from the start of the conversation I think.
Thanks for your work.
@ Anthony I've seen a lot of your videos you're a gentleman and until now all the people You've interviewed are pretty cool too.... Have you had anyone get pissed at you / heated debate recorded???
It’s amazing that almost every time you do the mirrored religion example the person takes the same path i.e. I respect their beliefs, it’s true to them, I wouldn’t judge them etc. etc. To any believer reading this: The purpose of the question is not to see if you’re letting them exercise their right to believe, it’s to get you to see how flawed your own approach is. If someone of a different religion used the exact same non evidentiary steps to get to their god belief AND you say you think they’re wrong, then you truly have to ask yourself if you could have made the same error. Faith based claims all stand on the same level ground, so we need a way to differentiate them. Logic, reason and evidence. The problem is once we start applying those methods to finding the truth, arguments for the religion begin to quickly erode. And that’s the point.
her pacing denotes nervousness
any body language experts out there? seems to me that early in the conversation, when she was delivering an apologetics monologue, she stood stock-still. later, especially when anthony asks her (around 9:30), "how committed are you to what you just said," the swaying kicks in. swaying appears to stick around for much of the rest of the conversation, especially when she's having to think on her feet instead of deliver pre-packaged platitudes. am I imagining this and/or does it mean anything?
storminswanson
I'm no expert, but she seems totally defensive and Anthony's synopsis at the end is dead on.
If all of the references to Christianity were bleeped out in this video, would you be able to determine which God she was talking about?
I wonder if how Jessie thinks her atheist friend gets meaning and purpose from life.
Great talk.. I said alot of the same stuff when i believed.
I am always left thinking that believers are either arrogant or ignorant when is comes to religions other than their own. Listening to believers leads me to think they have a kind of pity for those that don't follow what they believe.
There's something about the eagerness with which Jessie repeats her certainty in her beliefs which suggests a deep rooted fear to me. As if even just allowing for the possibility of her Christianity being wrong would condemn her.
13:00 kids that age also believe in Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny... BECAUSE THEY'RE TOLD TO BY THEIR PARENTS!
Maybe you should use street epistemology to find out why she arrived at the belief she is unattractive, I teach people to be photogenic and use your techniques to help people think about why they have learned negative beliefs about themselves.
You can't learn a new idea until you demonstrate to your sub-conscious that the one you hold is false. Thats why this is hands down the most effective way of approaching people as confrontation triggers protective thinking.
So thank you Anthony.
"My best friend is an atheist..."
~ Classic
So if people don't know the reason for the universe's origin, is it reliable to assume that reason is God? So just because we don't know why or how something is or came to be, is that a good reason to assume a god exists?
Any input on this question? Has it worked? What flaws do you see in this question?
Why was her name not omitted? In the description of the video the email text said she'd like her name omitted
Debbie King She emailed later to say that she was fine with her name being used.
Anthony Magnabosco Oh Thank goodness.
Nice video, I just discovered your channell.
Can you point me to a video with a "everyone is believing in the same god" approach?
Bartosz Domański Thanks for watching. Nothing is jumping to mind right now, but I’m really certain that I have had a talk like that. If anything comes to mind I will let you know.
Anthony Magnabosco thanks, do you remember if the book "manual for crearing atheists covers it? I intend to read it in the near future.
Bartosz Domański I really don’t recall if the book covers that. You might want to consider joining one of the private SE Facebook study groups if you are looking for ideas on how to best respond to that specific type of assertion. There is a group with over 4000 people that is the main group, but there are smaller groups as well where you may be able to get some assistance.
i wonder if people would reconsider giving you permission to upload, if you had less or maybe more subscriptions.
Here is what I would suggest Jessie (if you ever see this comment):
Write down what you would consider a contradiction (F.e. Does it need to contradict history? Does it have contradicting stories or eyewitness accounts? Numbers don't add up? Does it contradict scientific explanations? Are there conflicting moral teachings? Does it conflict with your own morality or ideas?). The more specific your criteria is the better foundation you will have for your belief, should you fail to find any. Ask yourself: "What would I need to find from that book in order to discard it as not a reliable source of information?" Then read the bible and actively try to find such contradiction. Don't try to prove the bible. Try to disprove it. If you can't find any contradictions, read the counter-arguments or google whether anyone else has found a contradiction and check it yourself.
It is really important that you first come up the criteria (a prediction) and then attempt to disprove the idea based on that criteria.
Jessie was super nice. I wonder if she still watches Anthony's videos?
It is amazing how many people in these interviews say that there are absolutely *no* contradictions in the bible. Have they not read a single word out of it? It contradicts itself as well as reality. You can find a good handful of contradictions on the first page.
It is also funny how they go on to say that if they found contradictions, it would not change their belief. So obviously the validity of the book isn't really the backbone of their belief. I think it actually boils down to comfort, meaning in life, and life after death. Those are the blocks that build the (shaky) foundation of belief.
Doesn't this get old for you? I used to debate as an atheist for years. It just because so monotonous, I couldn't do it anymore.
Adam Elliott While this is certainly not my first time having a discussion like this, it could be the first time for folks like Jessie. And no, it really never gets old for me. At least, not yet.
Anthony Magnabosco I respect your resolve and use of the Socratic method. I wish you well my friend.
The word 'debate' is so out there for me when using to describe what Anthony does lol.
I too got bored with the endless apologetic/anti-apologetic arguments, but this is a whole different tool. Seeing people benefiting from this makes me as a viewer happy, let alone how Anthony feels when it happens.
Adam I can tell you I feel exactly like you do. Growing up in a Catholic home the most liberating thing was getting rid of my religion. For a little while it felt good to speak my mind and it felt good to get others to think about things. But when you feel like you're just banging your head up against the wall hearing the same rhetoric over and over again it became too damn tedious for me. That includes not just religion per se but also with the psychic nonsense.
I want to be your apprentace, I want to learn how to do this as well as you. I have a tendency to become to heated in debates, and this method could extend my life greatly. I am going to be studying your videos, and trying to learn as much from your methodology as possible. I am preferring this much more than the dillahunty method which was my standard before. I am personally sick of dealing with apologists, this method makes people think about their positions. I think if more people adopted this method we could counteract the apologists from within their flock, and potentially prevent a holy war.
The only thing I find useful to point out, in Bible contradiction conversations, is out of all people who have questions, want clarity, and study deeper into the Bible, more than less, they find more questions with less confirmation. it takes huge leaps of faith to hold to the Bible when you ACTUALLY read the Bible honestly.
5:08 please explore Exodus 21 and Deuteronomy 22!
6:55 John 20:1 vs. Matthew 28:1 vs. Mark 16:1 vs. Luke 24:1,10
It feels like she has been indoctrinated despite what she May think on the subject.
she knew exactly the right thing to say to most questions, reminded me of a lot of how apologetics talk.
which is why I also think the questions didn't really land for her, she just gave the answers that she believes/was told were the right answers but didn't actually think about them much, at least not during the talk.
Hope we get a follow up, would be great to see her again.
it was a good talk, definitely possible she would of reflected on some of those questions and would like to see her new takes
The illogical parts that I could readily identify were as follows:
1. "Why god? Well, just look at the TREES!" argument
2. Argument from ignorance.
3. Life is meaningless without god.
4. Bible inerrancy.
5. Exclusion of all other religions.
6. Childhood indoctrination.
7. Argument from incredulity.
8. The bible is true because it says it’s true/circular reasoning.
9. Apparently does not read the bible if she doesn’t see any contradictions.
10. Believes in talking snakes/donkeys/burning bushes/unicorns/dragons/etc.
11. Relativist fallacy aka “True for ME”
12. Genetic fallacy
13. Giving credence to dreams
Jessie was a real joy to listen to; smart and interesting. But if she if she does come to the comment section here and see this post, I would just like her to look up the fallacies listed, think about what she would think of someone else's religious belief or ideology if she heard them use any of the above fallacies, and ask herself in what other instances in her daily life would she utilize things like faith and blind acceptance over evidence and reason.
Hope to hear more from you, Jessie. Take care.
My question is is how do you bite your tongue because I would have said this this and this how do you just sit there and not say nothing
It takes time. If you look at some of my earlier talks, you can see me falling into the trap of telling people things that are irrelevant to why they think something is true.
I realized something during this video about why people are able to accept flaws in the Bible, even reject it, and still have faith in god.
When I lost my faith it seemed like I was doing more research into religion and Christianity. I realized that a lot of things in the Bible didn’t make sense or I very much didn’t agree with them, same with the church. So I rejected both of them and decided to start to worship god my own way, still having faith in a Christian-like god. Eventually I began to lose more and more faith in that god, eventually becoming agnostic atheist. People can lose and reject physical tenants to their faith, but the belief in god is at their core. Of course they’re going to say their faith won’t be broken if they lost the Bible, it’s just as strong with it. Losing faith in god takes time away from religion.
I have a friend who seems to be going through the same rejection of church and the Bible that I did. I’d like to “SE” him at some point because I think it would be really interesting g to talk about his views, not even to “convert” him. Unfortunately the strain on our friendship if that happened is unknown, and slightly terrifying.
If the point of SE is to respectfully question beliefs, isn't the summary at the end nonproductive in that effort? I can see someone seeing the video and saying, "Well this guy is just closed minded and wants me to change my beliefs." I thought SE seeks to avoid that.
Anon YMouse It has been a while since I’ve watched this discussion or listened to the end (and I have not listened to it again before typing this comment), but I don’t see how many could come to the conclusion that I do not want to respecfully question people or that I am close-minded by listening to any of my summary re-caps I have started adding at the end of most of my newer discussions.
(If there something in particular that is bothering you, please quote it and I will attempt to address it further.)
My goal by including a summary of my thoughts at the end is to help people who wish to learn this method and use it during their own encounters.
How can a modern sane/civil person read the Bible, agree with it and don't object to anything in?
That is assuming a somewhat literal view where you can't see anything wrong with cartoonishly evil things.
Someone that read scripture as part metafore part history don't have that problem assuming they don't see the evil stuff as history and agrees with it.
Nice conversation, Jessie sounds very sincere. Here beliefs are grounded in indoctrination I suspect (this belief came from somewhere) and agency attribution to things that happened in her life and things she has dreamed.
Religion is carefully constructed to give the illusion of meaning in ones life. Hinduism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism all work this way but that doesn't IMHO prove that they are true.
Nice two way conversation. I hope that the two of you meet again.
religion is evolved, not constructed. that would be intelligent design. which is a spectacularly glorious irony.
The statement; "It is true for me".
Jessie, I would encourage a study of objective truths vs subjective truths. A god either exists or it does not exist. There is no in between. Even if the god that exists is nothing like what you might expect it to be.
The statement that a god exists is an objective statement of truth, it should and is viewed as an opinion that you can believe or not believe. If what is actually true matters to a thinking honest person, evaluating a claim objectively is the only path towards what is true.
A human cannot step off a ledge and float in the air. Objectively true. Knowledge.
Saying you believe because you feel it, does not make it objective. That is subjective. That is why you call it a "belief". We call objective truths, knowledge. If you KNOW there is a god, called God, stop calling it a belief. Call it knowledge and make a demonstration of the knowledge we can all get behind. IMO, you are admitting that you may be mistaken by using the word belief.
To say it is true for you is no different than my saying or believing I will hit the lottery tomorrow. (and I don't play the lottery)
OR
It is true for me that I can flap my arms and fly. The demonstration would make this an objective truth. Without a demonstration, it is a belief and not an objective truth and this is why there are atheists and 10,000 other religions.
I take it you believe 'objective truths' exist? People see, hear, smell and touch things through their own senses, life experience and biases. What's 'good' to one may be 'bad' to another. Color blindness affects some people's ability to experience red, for example. Is red an objective truth?
Some people have been convinced that god(s) exist. To them, god(s) exist.
Is it an 'objective truth' that god(s) do or do not exist?
@@notwhatiwasraised2b the problem with "good" and "bad" is that most people don't have a definition for them. And yes red does exist "red" is just a name for a certain length of a light wave
@@Aura-bu9jb I didn't ask if red exists. I asked if it is an 'objective truth', which it is not.
'Red' is a word humans invented to describe an experienced when viewing a thing that reflects a certain wave length of light.
The 'red' is in the subjective eye of the beholder and cannot be experienced by red blind people.
@@notwhatiwasraised2b it depends by what you mean by objective. You might mean that it's not dependent on the mind of a single individual or that it is not dependent on minds in general or even some different definition
@@Aura-bu9jb By definition, 'objective' means independent of subjective perception or interpretation by ANY mind.
Absent a subjective perceiver, Mars would still exist 'objectively', but it's color would not.
When she talked about the history of Jesus it sounded like she was circling back to the bible, even though she said earlier that it had no impact on her confidence.
@7:25 I would have had a hard time refraining from listing the 1000 contradictions.
Shes not thinking clearly about your questions. Shes uncomfortable. Shame, cuz she seems smart
Man, I kept seeing the light bulb appear over her head, but it just never came on...I think it might have if you'd have been able to continue.
This was painful.
13:00 Answer the question.
A couple thoughts - that feeling she talked about when something feels wrong when you're far from god. That feeling completely goes away after becoming an atheist. It did for me at least. My other thought on a question that could've been asked is if a book is coherent then does that make it true? Aka coherentist view.
I really like Jessie. She's not a pro apologist but a common Christian. I think confidence in our beliefs comes over time as we live them out, and they seem to make sense of the world and our experience. She's not prepared to give a philosophical defense for theism, but she has an intuitive confidence, and I think that's fine for right now. If her faith is challenged, hopefully she will wrestle for truth and come out on the other side even stronger in her faith.
Will Jackson Hmm. That’s interesting. What advice would you have for Jessie so that she could find out that the Christian God is real?
Anthony Magnabosco I would tell her that we all live in uncertainty, and empirical observation or proof probably won't get us to the answers of the deepest questions of life. But that doesn't mean we can't have good reasons for faith, without empirical proof. Concerning the Christian God, the biblical account of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus is an amazing thing. The easiest Christian writings were probably Paul's letters, and he, starting out as a persecutor of this new sect, turned and became a follower after an encounter with the resurrected Jesus. And as to the 4 gospel accounts ... I don't know how much liberty ancient writers felt like they had when giving accounts of things (maybe more than we would be comfortable with), but it seems obvious that they were blown away by Jesus. I think it's because the resurrection of Jesus really happened. And there are non-biblical accounts of the early Christians worshiping Jesus as a God. If Jesse wanted to really dig into this from a historical perspective, I'd refer her to NT Wright's book on the resurrection.
But I think that the way we come to know something, or have confidence in something, is because pieces start to fit together. If we gain some knowledge, and it makes sense of other things, that lends credibility to it. Ester Meek's book on epistemology, "Longing to Know" goes into this.
I had an encounter with a spiritual person (I'm being careful with my words - I believe I had an encounter with God) when I younger, and I experienced something that the Bible describes when it speaks of being "born again", or being made a "new creation", etc. Since the Bible describes something that sounds a lot like what I've personally experienced, that's another thing that gives me confidence in it. Of course the Hindu could say something similar about her experience (and I would really like to talk with her), but we are our own person and have to make a choice the best we can. We can't answer the puzzles of the world before deciding what to believe. We have to do the best we can with what we got. I think even denying the evidence and going with a naturalistic or materialistic belief is still coming down on a belief system.
And a lot of this probably has a lot more to do with what we love and desire than objective rationality. Probably for you too. For me, the Bible resonates with me. I love the God of the Bible. I can't figure out Jesus, but there's like a self attesting quality to him that says "God". I tell more about how this all started with me at www.willjackson.com/my_story.pdf
Thank. Yeah, I just don't find stories from a book to be convincing evidence. I'm surprised to meet people who do. I hope you keep pursing this belief that the weight you seem to be putting on stories from a book. Nice chatting with you, Will.
Anthony Magnabosco That sounds simplistic, "stories from a book". A historical approach would look at these early writings, accounts from other sources as well, and try to make sense of what really happened 2000 years ago. But I can understand that a person might not be convinced even after looking at the evidence. It's a pretty amazing claim. But also, I hope that you will consider that there are good reasons for the Christian faith and not dismiss it in a simplistic way. You may enjoy the podcast "Unbelievable?". It's a podcast that brings Christians and atheists together to discuss/debate related topics.
Will Jackson Thank you. Yes, I’ve heard of that show. In fact, I was invited on it :-) (but couldn’t make it in studio).
She hasnt read the Bible. Not front to back. Not comprehensively. Shes repeating what shes been told. Never fails to amaze me how many people defend the Bible when they havent read it
obviously she's never read her bible.
Deicide reading the Bible doesn't mean you will immediately say this is a contradiction. Most who were raised believers and going to. Church were told many times it is god's word, and it is perfect and contains no Flaws and contradictions.
Due to this when you read through it if you do see something that is or seems to be one you will remember being told there are no contradictions and will say to yourself well maybe I'm wrong in my understanding. Eventually what happens is you find ways to. Interpret it so it is not a contradiction. However there are some in there that just are contradictions no matter how you try to spin it, but your eyes need to be opened to them.
For example I'll. Give one most Christians hear and already have a spin for most of the time these days.
In Matthew and Luke the genealogies of Jesus contradict, and a lot of Christians know this and are taught that no they do not contradict because one is Joseph genealogy and the other is Mary's and the point of it is to show that the only way he could be the Messiah is by being god's son, because by Joseph he would have a curse on him, and by Mary it's the wrong davidic line..... However this is the spin, because there's nothing to indicate either genealogy is speaking about Mary, and even so Israel has a law that would still make Jesus the son of Joseph, so he would still be the descendant of Joseph making him ineligible for king of Israel.
This is just one example there are many others and nearly everyone has a spin for it.
Dizzinator2114 I wasn't talking about the contradictions. She said that she agrees with everything that it teaches. The facts that it promotes slavery, denigrates women and advocates the murder of gays etc... shows that she's never actually read the thing. Either she hasn't read it or she's a deplorable human being. My money is on the first one.
Deicide I know you weren't, but that's what I was pointing out that believers can read the Bible see the contradictions and immoral things and find ways to spin them. I focused more on the contradictions, but it's the exact same with all the immoral, and petty things in there. My wife is a believer and I an ex believer, and we both read through the Bible and it didn't make us stop believing. Heck my wife thinks women shouldn't vote or anything other than work from home, have babies, and shut up... However she's not this way herself. I once pointed out to her that the Bible does endorse slavery close to what we saw in America and that there was no punishment for rape, and she said that the punishment was that the man had to stay married to the woman he rapes, and in regards to slavery she says slavery is still around today... That is absurd, but yet she claims to love humanity and want the best for everyone and will help people out in all sorts of ways... This is from a woman who has read through the Bible, and reads it every day, and listens to sermons most of the day. Reading the Bible can break some people free, but for others it's really not about the Bible it's about their faith in the god saving them from some inner turmoil or how they needed something and it seems he supplied it and more things like that.
The Bible is full of contradictions. That somebody says it isn't shows that they have never read it, which is true for most Christians.
XX YY most Christians haven't read it, but even Bart Ehrman said what I said above that when he was a believer in college and he was learning all. These different things in the Bible he would spin them to where they wouldn't be contradictions anymore. So a believer saying there are no contradictions doesn't mean they havent read it.
I love how she explains all the reasons for SE. This was a very good talk.
I'm always interested in asking people who claim that looking around at this planet and what is here can't be an "accident" where do they think this planet is in the universe? Do they have any understanding whatsoever of the fact that this planet is a mere teensy bit of cosmic dust? Do they have any understanding of how we know the elements that make up all we see were made in the supernova of ancient stars? Do they recognize that every god/godess ever believed in is only about the group or tribe that invented it and only concerned about one species on this itty bitty mote of dust? That any god that requires blood sacrifice to be appeased is by any definition a monster?
It'd be cool if you could find someone that believes in holding someone in contempt for committing a crime in regards to free will vs determinism.
No contradictions? She obviously hasn't read it.
It's so depressing and frustrating that most of these religious people you talk to, Anthony, have such a severe lack of empathy and introspection that they can't even understand the very simple point you are making to them. You're so patient. I bet on the inside you're facepalming the whole time.
NebulousWeb It really is amazing (and frightening) how many stupid people are out there just walking around in the world at this moment.
And that's WITH modern education and internet access. It's the smartest time in human history, but still stupid in the grand scheme.
ArcadianGenesis I don't agree that Jessie is stupid. She is just like most people - content with familiar beliefs and uncomfortable examining the weak foundation of that belief. Her repeated sidestep when confronted with the mirrored Hindu example shows she is not open to considering the broken logic of her position. She's closed, not stupid.
I feel like your comment takes the direct opposide aproach of what this chanel is about.
OneEyedJack01 Sure. That's just semantics, though. I wasn't Implying that she's mentally impaired, but she *does* have intellectual deficiencies. That's one kind of "stupid" in my book.
Towards the end of the video it is clear that she is reading these comments, and there's been a message at the end of videos stating to try and be respectful if you can, for that reason. You can still say whatever you want... but being friendly is going to be a lot more prductive here, and what Anthony would prefer.
"nothing in there that I object to" (regarding the bible)...darn my neighbor is out there cutting the grass on the Sabbath, now I gotta go stone them :{
You should have asked her when is the last time she read the bible herself front to back (not bible studies where they cherry pick passages)
"God came to me in a dream" ... *facepalm* It's... a... dream!
Dreams are much more than simple neurological phenomena. Most people don't believe that unfortunately, but if you study dream theory in depth, you'll start to see what I mean.
@@violetlove3580 Hahahaha.
So pretty obvious she has not read her Bible. Completely. Probably only the things her church or priest tells her too. She's gonna get a kick out of the slavery section. (Exodos 21) but pretty sure she still won't change her mind.