EP23 Boxing with Ghosts
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- Опубликовано: 15 ноя 2022
- Ready for an argument? Like Dan's quote voice? Waiting to hear Dan discuss boxing? Then you've hit the trifecta. Boxing expert Mike Silver and Dan discuss whether today's modern fighters could compete with those of yesteryear.
1. The Arc of Boxing: The Rise and Decline of the Sweet Science by Mike Silver
amzn.to/3gcuOyH
2. The Night the Referee Hit Back: Memorable Moments from the World of Boxing by Mike Silver
amzn.to/3hLpKSp
3. Stars in the Ring: Jewish Champions in the Golden Age of Boxing: A Photographic History by Mike Silver
amzn.to/3GoNgie
4. Mike Silver boxing website
www.mikesilverboxing.com 
Кино
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I had PTSD induced insomnia for over 8 years, nothing I tried helped, until I started to listen to HCH and CS at night. I was able to concentrate on him talking which took my mind off the other crap, which allowed me to relax enough to sleep. Dan is a life saver!
To quote the '2x' Firm handshakes all round
Nothing beats Joy of Painting with Bob Ross in that regard.
No PTSD on my end, but he has had the same effect on my insomnia, headphones go with me everywhere, and I almost always get 7+hours, Dan's been putting me to sleep for five years every night, and still, I can pick any episode from any series, and get new gems of info that I missed previous.
God fucking bless dan carlin
@@pieteytrenton2747 I'll amen that. I love history, so I didn't buy HCH podcasts to fall asleep, it was just a side benefit. But as with you, Dan's been putting me to sleep for years and God thank him for it.
@@twonumber22 Bob Ross has done me great service there. Dan Carlin keeps me awake and hungry for more.
I love waking up to see a new upload from Dan. I'm anxiously awaiting a new full HH episode (it's been over 8 months), but Dan and boxing make a great one/two combo.
As a fan of martial arts and a diehard fan of your content this is like Christmas come early. I'll probably listen to this four or five times till I'm satisfied
I love boxing and I love hardcore history. This was the show I didn't know I needed.
Me too ! This needs to be a series.
Facts
Likewise brothers
This is an interesting argument. But I don't necessarily buy the idea that Rocky Marciano or Jack Dempsey would have given Tyson Fury much trouble.
I wonder what analogy Dan will use in this one? can you use a boxing analogy for boxing? Well at least the boxing analogies will finally make sense.
Thanks Dan 😊
I dont even like boxing, but here's the difference between the Dan Carlins of the world and the rest of the world who think they coulda beena contender,,,, knowledge. I never knew he knew do much about boxing, and then his guest, he knows EVERYTHING!
Even better, a crude game from primary/elementary school of slaps 😅
I’m a boxing coach and 90% of my coaching is with analogy’s 😂, one example for beginners throw your straights similar to shot put and then discus like motion for a lead hook then correct technique from there
Man between the Artemis 1 launch and new hh, RUclips notifications did great this morning...
Yes!!! Literally just re-listened to Blue Print over Remembrance weekend, and been jonsing for a new upload. Thank you Dan, you've connected me to the some of the greatest and most harrowing moments in history, made me learn not only about history but human nature. You and your teams work have been a tonic, thank you all so much, and keep up the fantastic, amazing work
Ya blueprint for armageddon was my entry too.
9 or 20 listens and a few max hastings books later. Still want more
@@dustyfairview9062 they didn't at Dunkirk when they fought off the Germans in the rear to allow the BEF to evacuate the beach. Also, here's a video ruclips.net/video/Isl4pf-WvPk/видео.html proving you wrong
I really hope he becomes a professor or teacher. He has so much knowledge, and I think he could really have a huge impact on kids lives.
Can I just say this is a dream come true for me in this episode. I have absolutely adored 80% of what you have produced on your channel since I started listening. When you talk about nobody being able to train or teach fighters the art or finer points anymore. I believe it all evolves as it changes through time.
At 42:00 dan starts quoting that fighters can't move like they used to. . .? Ukrainian Hytech or Floyd, no one back then could move like these two now.
Loved this interview format!
The interview audio clips (with the unavoidable audio call quality) interlaced with other bits, including book quotes, worked really well in my opinion.
As someone whose knowledge on the sport is “maybe a handful of old black and white videos on youtube”, I’m very glad “the boxing episode” had this level of editing and quality!
Thanks Dan. You made my Day!
Dan, you are by far and away my favorite history podcast or however you would describe it… I wait with baited breath for each and everything you put out to the public! History has always been my favorite subject to spend time on and it’s not even close that you’re the Undisputed Champion in my book! The way you research your topics and how you put them together is quite easily the best thing on the internet! I know you claim not to be a historian but not many actual historians can hold a candle to your abilities to put a story together and the way you tell it is why the internet is great! I love everything you do! Your conversation with Lex Friedman is still one of my favorite things to listen to. If it wasn’t a digital era I would have worn out the cassette tape by now! I would’ve warped the record by now. I would’ve scratched the CD by now. The point is… I just can’t get enough of everything you do! Thank goodness for the digital age because I just get to keep listening to everything you’ve done over and over. I’m not much of a reader anymore because life tends to get in the way of my time to read. I have 6 children 7-17, 4 boys and two girls. So, as you could imagine I don’t have a lot time to myself anymore except while I’m at work. I’m a forklift operator for one of the big 3 and I’m on midnight shift currently, so for me to be able to put in one of my headphones and do my job while listening to one of my favorite people on the entire internet has made my life inside the factory not only bearable, it has almost made it my favorite part of my day. Of course I can’t rank you over spending time with my kids but damn is closer than you might think. I have purchased your latest book as well and once again you have knocked it out of the park. I of course use audible because of my time management issues I described earlier. The only thing I haven’t been able to purchase yet is your entire box set of Hardcore History. I believe I will finally treat myself for Christmas this year and buy the set! I must admit, I’ve already listened to many of the episodes on RUclips and can’t wait until I just finally own it for myself! Sorry I’m continuing to ramble on about your greatness but it’s well deserved and I only hope that you somehow get to read this comment one day and know how much your audience truly appreciates your work! I believe I heard about you originally from my second favorite podcast JRE. He has always discussed your work with so many guests that I just had to check you out. Which then lead me to discover everything you have done. Please keep them coming and I’ll keep listening! You are the man and I just wanted to take a second to make sure you knew how we all felt about you!
Hear hear 🥂🥂🥂
This is nice but you’re also lame lmao
Check out Lions Led by Donkeys for some good military history podcasting. It's similarly great for sleep
@@BiggestCorvid thank you! I can recommend we have ways of making you talk as well.
Always fun to be surprised by this podcast
I don't have much interest in boxing, but I could listen to Dan talk about it all day.
Thanks for showing me things about boxing I never knew. Not my cup of tea but I appreciate it a little more now.
This started so good. First 5 mins and he has my full attention!
Brilliant video thank you🥊
Full circle: start using World War I analogies when talking about boxing
Freedom yeah 😂🎉
@@jestermoon😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Wow, learned so much about boxing today. Thanks Dan!
I appreciate you so much Dan thank you
Dan is the best.
Finally! Thank you Dan 🙏🏾
I like to think of the backgrounds of some of the old-time boxers. These guys didn't have a "poor upbringing" because they lived in a bad neighbourhood or "turned to boxing to escape the Gangs". They came from total deprivation. They were not just Battle-tested - they were War-tested. That incredible hardness was already there and the Great old trainers could hone that hardness to a formidable edge.
The overly muscled fighters of today would, I feel, be broken up to the body by the inside fighters of the past.
I think that ignores the fighters like Usyk, Loma, and Canelo that came from absolutely the same kinda place as a Duran or a sugar ray, if not worse. The boxer as an athlete is the same as they always have been, the sport has just been warped into something softer and made to sell tickets to casuals.
12 round fights to make it easier to bigger and it less important to have a good gas tank. An even number of rounds to make it easier to fudge decisions and pad records. A focus on knockouts for highlight reels to sell promoters tickets. A lack of drive by promoters to let their fighters fight, so they can protect their cash cow from being slightly less profitable because they lost once or twice (as if that matters).
You take Loma and send him back and he's dangerous to anyone, but he's built for the modern 12 rounds. If he grows up in the Duran era, he's still dangerous but he's a different fighter because he's trained for a different sport.
Boxing has changed, not the fighters. I love the old era boxing because I prefer it's rules and it as a sport, but I myself am young and have fought in modern bouts. The two things aren't comparable sports anymore, it's a preference for ruleset that guides if you think old school fighters are better or if you think new fighters have the edge. Truth is they're all elites and all of them are contenders in any era, just happened to be born in the era they were in.
My great grandpa spent a lot of money to get pretty much ringside seats to see a Muhammad Ali fight.
They had to drive hours to see the fight, and when they arrived they were just in time to see it about to start. They sat down literally when the bell was rung for the round to start.
A little bit more than a minute into the fight Ali knocked out
Sonny Liston and the fight was over. Apparently they got up walked back to the car, and drove hours back home complaining all the way back about how much money they spent for the fight, only to see a little bit more than a minute🤦
😂 that's gold. He witnessed boxing royalty at an historical moment
An early Xmas present. Thank you Mr. Carlin your the man
Thanks for a great episode. I am an assistant wrestling coach and have heard many of these arguments from my coach. His main sticking point is always technique over strength and it proves true every match.
Christmas has come early this year!
Fantastic as always!
One of the few channels I get excited for. Thank you Mr. Carlin.
One thing that I wish would have been discussed more is boxing organizations and more of the behind the scenes stuff that has caused the massive decline in popularity.
That is the real decline of boxing. The shady decisions in boxing destroyed the sport and continue too
Thank you Dan. You are a god among men.
Bro I just thought today.. Man I'm fanging for some Dan Carlin.. here you are. Thankyou Mr Algorithm
YES.
NEW CONTENT.
LOVE YOU DAN.
Best 3 am notification ever
I see Dan Carlin, I click.
Thanks again Dan - this is a discussion that my friends and I have debated through the years. That, and who would win in a fight between a lion, a bear, and a tiger.
I think having huge amount of fights might have diminishing returns. Also about strenght training I think it's about how much focus boxer gives it compared to developing in other areas. Some boxers are also better at using their size to their advantage than others as well.
On the point about a huge amount of fights, yes it's diminishing returns with knowledge and experience, but the point is that these days someone's fighting for yeh tittle in 10-20 fights. In the old days that would be considered as the person has barely gotten enough experience to even be judged as a fighter. Modern boxers have to be able to sell tickets and be stars within one or two fights and don't have the chance to build up real ring IQ. This is why boxers like Loma and Usyk are so successful, they have had that fight experience. You aren't comfortable and settled into your style as a fighter until you've had 20-30 fights as a pro, sparring doesn't cut it as it doesn't have the same pressure as a real bout.
When it comes to over fighting I think that's true as well, but remember these guys didn't take as much damage as fighters do now, and it was more about fighting fights to keep them sharp and stop ring rust (which is absolutely a thing, I've felt it) from developing. They were basically always in training camp and because of that were just always able to perform to their best, there was no "ah he had a bad training camp so he was rusty". The fighter just had a good fight or a bad fight, and the consequences for losing a bout wasn't that you were doomed into never being a. Contender again and you'd lose your star power, like it is these days.
They were far better at defending and avoid damage than today's boxers. They used parry, distance control and head movement way better.
Also he can list 50 fights where the lighter opponent by 20lb won. But how many the other way in the same time
Once a boxer finds their niche, they don't focus on strength training as much, UNLESS their a power puncher or a knockout artist. Look at Tyson Fury, he's one of the best boxers on the planet. If he focused on strength training, he'd be a walking homicide case, but he's been boxing for so long that he just neglects it, ur %100 correct.
Thanks Dan!
Super interesting I listened to it when it came out and came back for a review
Thanks. There's no other site that I check for new releases, and non are there...
I love to watch a conversation between Dan and Mike Tyson.
How can you have this conversation and not mention Usyk? He is an extraordinary technician of today, exactly ali's height, from the same school as loma, dances all the time, has some very unique training, had loads of amateur bouts. It would have bled in to the conversation quite well.
Because that doesn't agree with their hypothesis. The problem with their argument is that the truth is that the sport has changed, not the fighter.
12 round fights, instead of 15, shifted the fights to knock-downs and knock outs as it's even rounds so easier to draw. It also meant you needed less of a gas tank and aren't at risk so much for gazing in the later rounds, letting people be bigger.
The question isn't "are older fighters better than new ones?" The question is "has the change in boxing rules and culture made boxing worse?"
I agree that boxing is worse than in the golden era, but I think it's because of the promoters and sanctioning bodies and the rule changes. I don't begrudge the fighter because they fight in the era of highlight reels being a necessity to sell tickets, and I don't disrespect them by saying they're any less elite than the past. I criticise the sport as a whole from having degraded from as it once was because of greed and lazy rule making. A modern boxer is elite in any era, an old school boxer is elite in any era, the only difference is that they happen to be born in era's of differing quality of the sport as a whole, otherwise they're all greats.
I thought the same thing ! The fact that he never said the name Usyk or any of the other great technicians (Crawford!!!) says a lot about how poorly versed in current fighters he is
I think mentioning his name will depend on the outcome of April 29th. I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to think of an answer to your good point/question.
If he can go up in class and beat Tyson Fury of all people - then and only then will he enter into the public and historical vernacular.
Can't f'ing wait!!!
Jesus i just checked the internet for some hype videos after clearly not reading about it for a bit - what a fucking disappointment.
Adding to the Mythos of the Show.... Already psyched
This one's a real "fly in the ointment"
Thank you!
This morning I was at a baseball card show in Massachusetts and when it was winding down NFL great Russ Francis was talking to a dealer. He is mentioned in the beginning of this podcast, and his conversation with Dan many years ago I think is the inspiration of it. I ask Russ Francis if he knew Dan Carlin and he said he did but, hadn't talked to him in years. I told him that Dan Carlin is a successful pod caster and that he mentioned you. I asked him if he knew that, he said that he didn't. Then I played two minutes or so the part he was mentioned to him. Russ said he will try to get in contact with Dan. One story that Russ told me is that he only played one season of college football and was a pre-Med student. The QB of his team asked him to join after the tight end got hurt for the season. Russ was one of my favorite players of my youth. It was a surreal moment when his name was mentioned in the podcast and it was double surreal when I had Russ Francis listening to my phone listening to that podcast.
Good stuff bro! Greetings from Oaxaca, México!
The older athletes would have access to modern nutrition and training methods. Certain athletes with self control issues would struggle because the base skill level has raised so much they wouldn't be able to coast on their high degree of natural talent.
Great work
Dan Carlin on his own is several different people contemplating several paths of the same story, and then proceeds to guide us masterfully down this one and then that one just by the inflection of his voice or speaking soft and slow or loud and fast, whichever horse is standing there, you ride along (until we fall asleep), so he wins hands down as greatest story teller, however having peers as guests on your show, is a different horse. And the world's greatest story teller gets it right again, he has the gift of making his guest shine like an exploding star. That is beyond great, it's extraordinary. I have noticed his pattern, he starts off doing most of the talking (no surprise) but actually he's baiting his guest until they hit the same stride together, and then we're not riding horses anymore, we're flying. He's amazing to listen to if you're listening for this. Once they hit their stride here, Dan goes "and remember....." and the guest goes off on that tangent and we all sit back, get comfortable and listen, cause here comes the story. Hats off to the whole team who put it together like this, it's one of a kind.
Yessss
This was great.
Boxing episode from Dan…YYYEEEEESSSSS!!!!!!!
Love Dan keep em coming
Goooood morning Hardcore History
Manny Pacquiao IS greatness in every sense of the word over all time
Wooo a new episode!
humbly requesting more shows about boxing or perhaps even ancient mma
Take A Moment
Just found this one day after my 64th birthday.
I am a great fan of Iron Mike Tyson.
War, just like sport, war is a science.
I am a 28yr veteran of the RAF.
As ever, Dan opens our eyes to the atheists in foxholes.
Dan provides a comprehensive guide through the world of PTSD.
Try this technique on any sport. It worked for me.
Thanks again, brother.
Stay Safe
Stay Free 🌐
Here we go!
More like this!! Lots more!❤
As a young, huge martial arts fan, BJJ qnd MMA fan in particular, I found this really fascinating. I’ve actually never had a hard time watching old fights - I thought Liston vs Clay was extremely gripping and I’ve seen breakdowns on Willie Pep’s footwork that riveted me. What I was also thinking throughout this podcast was how this compares to grappling, and how that’s a sport where the “big moment” of a submission doesn’t coincide with an increase in superficial factors like bulking and a decrease in technique. It’s interesting how striking arts really diverge from grappling arts in that way; you have to be generally far more skilled than an opponent to land a sub and even then it usually involves a lengthy process of cooking the opponent and gassing them out first. Also frankly I’m an MMA fan who finds knockouts anticlimactic half the time because it usually means somebody is far worse than the other fighter; I want to watch lengthy technical exchanges where boxing becomes wrestling and someone catches a kick and now it’s a jiu jitsu match, I want to see the ephemeral gray area outside of the lines of distinct arts
A short answer is: yes and no.
Yesteryear's boxers were endurance athletes who fought often and therefore had more "real time" application of their skills, skills which in turn became more ingrained. Today's fighters are spirinters by comparison, were size and power are what gets the networks/fans excited and fight (at the to level anyway) only a couple of times a year, if even. They also have great skills today but because of their infrequent visits to the ring they are skills that are, in general, less honed and more likely to erode as a fight grind on. There are exections of course (Pac, Floyd, Choc, Roy, Finito and Loma from the present spring to mind), both from the past and from the present. A good bet is the present day fighter is competitive until about round 3 or 4 with his explosivity, greater athleticism and superior mass/size with the modern weight cutting techniques(insane though they are) before the old-timer just starts to show the class difference from about round 5 onwards with a more honed skillset, a more battle tested ring savy, a much faster fight tempo and with a brutal kind of endurance that almost no modern fighter has ever even seen, let alone could match.
Love your work Dan, thanks Mike for the great discussion...I don't think this is a controversial idea at all, boxing while growing up I learned this from all the trainers as a simple fact of life and nothing I have ever seen in the thousands of fights I watched/studied have ever gave me cause me to overthrow the theory. (ref: LeeWylie here on you tube)
I've been threatening to infuse HCH with a drip, so thanks for this team!
More fights doesnt matter. Practice doesnt make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect.
Great show, Dan!
Long time world boxing champ Lomachenko got his start in Ukrainian dancing. What footwork and artful coordination!
What a gift
Very interesting! Great entry into a discussion.
Imo a few of those points would have counter arguments and were a bit incomplete but most were solid deductive reasoning. I’m wondering if the author ever explored “why” boxing has regressed?
My theory is that the boxing media is largely to blame. At some point it became popular to celebrate “knockout artists” and “rock-em sock-em” while simultaneously calling “sweet science/hit and not get hit” boring.
Just when I was wondering what to listen to next...
Nice Dan!
Boxing is hardcore history
I’d love to hear him do a comprehensive historical breakdown of the bow and arrow. Incredible how every culture had it or somehow invented it to pretty much the same design without having much contact with each other.
Indigenous Australians did not have the bow and arrow, but everyone else did.
@@thescholar-general5975 oh that's crazy, I actually never thought of that... Interesting. Then could we say the same thing about the boomerang? Are they any other cultures that used boomerangs?
Not really that incredible, doesn't take a genius to think of "stab good, stab from far away even gooder" when you have thousands of people to have come up with that though.
@@notundermywatch3163 they had to come up with the boomerang since no bows
Hey Dan have you ever got plans on going to audible it’s where I do most my long term audio books and you have episodes I’d pay money for if it were on audible
dan carlin does a boxing podcast????? dream come true, thank you!
I never clicked on a video so fast
Thanks!
Themed history is great; it's not all about politics and wars.
True that!
hell yeah dan! long live the sweet science
Thanks for the upload Dan, loved the discussion, although I disagree with about 90% of it. I've bought the book too, but it reads like nostalgia mostly. It highlights a lot of the positives of previous generations without talking about the negatives.
It disappointed me that they didn't talk as much about how boxing as a sport has changed from how it used to be. I think they missed that and focused on nostalgia. I think they made fantastic points about their era, but the boxers themselve are the same people and have the same ability, the game has just changed.
For starters, we fight 12 rounds now instead of 15. Less rounds so you can push for knock outs with less risk if you gas out, less ability to let the other guy waste his energy and tire him out do you can be technical and steal the late rounds, and (most importantly) it's now an even number of rounds so draws are way more common if you don't score a knockout.
It's not that Canelo or Loma or Fury couldn't have made it back in the day, it's that they fight the style of the game they play. Old timer boxers were more defensive and did have better gas tanks, because they had to. Modern fighters are bigger and gas more easily, because knockouts are the only reliable way of guaranteeing a win and there's much less punishment for gassing out. The only way to be a big name these days is by having a highlight reel on twitter and tiktok, old timer fighters wouldn't have a trainer or a promoter willing to sign them on as they're "too boring to fill seats" and they'd get ducked and avoided as too risky if they tried to go with self promotion.
You can argue that boxing as a sport was better in the past, but the boxers themselves are still elite at their sport. Thai comes from someone who believes the old rules and sport were better, but is young and did fight in the modern era. I wish I could have been an old school fighter, but reality is that that's not the sport we have now.
Agreed. This episode is much too heavy on nostalgia, and imo not enough research was put into the actual technical development of both the boxing ruleset/equipment and the fighters themselves.
Lomachenko is doing things with his footwork that no other fighter has done before.
Tyson Fury is special *because* he possesses all of the minute, speedy nuances of the sweet science, in one of the largest, heaviest frames the sport has ever seen. Not to mention he's now proven that he can be both the sledgehammer and the surgeon at the highest level.
Maybe, as someone who trains and is a frequent consumer of Jack Slack's (among others) fight analysis content, I'm just spoiled on these things, but the vague talk of dead people being made of tougher stuff is just frustrating to listen to.
To be fair this episode would need to be much longer. Hopefully maybe a 3 part series cause this only scratches the surface imo. It ends when it's starts to get interesting
STELLAR !! TY DC!,,,,would it be a too far a stretch saying hockey has similarly changed> like no helmets to helmets,class, ,grace,speed...and even penalties and fights? Lots o Love from Bornholm,Denmark!
Sumo matches usually only last a few seconds (I thought about this when he said you have all the power you need at 200 pounds. Chiyonofuji only weighed like 230 and lifted Konishiki up and out of the ring, who weighed 550)
it's true if you need to punch someone in the face, not if you have to lift someone wighting twice as you
We ain't going no where Dan you are one of kind
As a lifelong boxing fan, I really appreciate this video.
Sharpness is an important factor, but it's worth noting that old age boxers were almost inarguably more dull as well due to wear and tear of excessive fighting. The boxers of a bygone era fought against other boxers with an enormous history as well, so it's not a straight one for one comparison to say that older boxers were more experienced as an end all, be all versus modern fighters.
I think you could also talk about coaches in this respect. Ray Arcel, Whitey Bimstein, Charlie Goldman, Angelo Dundee to mention a few to the Freddie Roaches (with great respect), Robert Garcia, Virgil Hunter etc.
Marvin Hagler? Duran? Roy Jones Jr? Tapia? Chavez? Etc etc.
Anwyways , love the work!
Time for the rest of the newest Hardcore history ep !
Good night.
its evolved,and in its current form its the best its been as a athletic contest,would be more a change in strategy ,its current format is the best application of rendering a opponent unconscious,not a match with next weeks fight in mind,such as perhaps a modern grappler does
Back in Greece that was Pankration it was more like MMA then boxing.
If anybody wants to see an unbelievable and legendary comeback in boxing, if you haven’t already, check out the comeback win by Diego Corrales vs Jose Luis Castillo. After being knocked down twice in that round and points deducted for excessive spitting out of mouth piece Coralles mounts a surreal comeback to TKO Castillo. What makes it more memorable today is Coralles died on the 2 year anniversary of that fight in a motorcycle accident in Las Vegas.
Awesome
Oh, how I have missed you!
When do we get the 10 part, 6 hours, each Alexander the Great episodes?
Yes! Happy HH Day!
a few reasons the games changed,there was more fighters due to the popularity and avalability of contests,journeyman had a viable career,and lots of fights where fought with preservation in mind,
Interestingly, Tiger Woods recently made the same point about Liv golf . He expressed concern that with upfront money, the hunger and the competition to be at the top will slip down, and they will be fewer competitions throughout the year.. this is similar to what is being said, comparing modern boxing to older
Thank you Dan. I'd love for you to explore Les Darcy and how he was robbed of the Heavy weight title. Like Phar Lap he was poisoned and his life cut short, some say by Americans.
Waking up at 0500, to see
HH Addendum… today is going to be a good day.
I could listen to Dan talking about paint drying and he would somehow make it RIVETING!
A knock out episode!
Fellow Oregonian and big fan.
I've always found this a fascinating subject. So thank you for covering it.
I've only begun listening to this addendum, so you may get into this further in, but when I hear these arguments what always seems to be going on is this sort of comparative snapshot of athletes. Looking at an athlete from say the 50s 60s or 70s, in that moment with that level of training, nutritional knowledge, conditioning programs, etc. Versus an athlete in a given field today with the contemporary equivalent of all of that.
I mean honestly that's not a reasonable comparison.
I feel like what should be considered is how would that elite athlete from the past perform today if given all of the advantages of nutrition, training, etc that current athletes have.
In any given era the top athletes are genetic outliers for one reason or another. So I think it's reasonable to assume that one of those outliers from the past given all the advantages of today's sports science, would likely excel in their craft today.
I think the se is true vice versa. If you take a Loma or a Canelo and put them back in time to Duran's day, I'm sure that they would also be top rank boxers as well.
The realities of the era and the way boxing has changed from what it was are different but the fighters are the same, if they grew up in that era. A modern fighter trained in the modern style might not succeed in old boxing, but I don't think old fighters would automatically succeed in modern fighting because of that. I think an old era fighter trained in the modern style would succeed, and an vice versa, but the old era fighter wouldn't ever make it to the top ranks as he'd be passed over by promoters for not being entertaining enough in twitter clips or ducked and avoided for being too dangerous. Likewise a modern fighter would fight to recklessly in the old era and wouldnt be able to handle 15 rounds (I'm disappointed they barely talked about the biggest change in boxing, it's gone from 15 rounds to 12 and that's overwhelmingly going to impact how the game is played. We've got better gloves and less rounds so throwing heavy hits and hoping for a knockout is way more feasible than when a fighter could just wait for you to gas and steal the late rounds).
You missed the whole point, no amount of micromanagement of nutrition, dubious supplements or technology will close the gap between a guy that has 20 fights and a guy that has 120, it's the ONE sport where that is true because we know what it does to a person over a lifetime.
I watched a Sugar Ray fight while listening to this. I can kind of see what Dan's saying. Old boxing seems to be about landing punches without taking them, and modern boxers probably wouldn't be so good at that. But boxing isn't really about that, anymore. We've decided it's about the knockout, and the technique now is to become a human bulldozer and dish out more damage than ones opponent. Sugar Ray isn't getting tangled up too much; Tyson got tangled up all the time, to the point he eventually decided to bite a guy's ear off in frustration. Sugar Ray was quick, but was his technique suited to defeat someone whose strategy is to just barrel into you, absorb all your punches, and land as many of his own as possible before the referee separates you two?
The argument that they make ignores the fact that boxing's rules has changed so that the old style of boxing they live doesn't work anymore.
I live old school boxing, I think it's the best sport ever created, but the sport is gone and you can't box like that and win in the modern rule set.
12 rounds instead of 15. A pressure by promoters to get knockouts for a highlight real so they can hype for more tickets. No punishing clinching, meaning no infighting. Even number of rounds so that draws are way more common if you don't score knockouts and it's harder to punish someone for rushing and taking the later rounds.
The artistry of boxing wasn't lost because of the boxers or the trainers, it was lost because of the greed of the promoters and the greed of the rule makers. The sport isn't the same, but disrespecting the modern elites isn't the answer. Elites are elite in any era, but fight in a style that suits the era they fight in. The only difference is when they were born, the rest is just stylistic.