Thanks! That’s really encouraging to hear and I’m glad you enjoyed the video! It is really disappointing that not many people remember China’s role during the war. I’ll continue to make videos on this topic and hopefully, more people will learn of the events that happened in China during the 1930s and 1940s! Thanks again for your support!
Funny thing is, later the Japanese would hand over the captured Stahlhelmet from the Chinese to Japan's Auxiliary troops. My Grandpa use to be memeber of PETA or Kyōdo Bōei Giyūgun (Indonesian Homeland Defenders, Military organization funded by Japan) and he were issued by Stahlhelmet. Those helmet has travel so far from Germany lmao
@@resistanceremembered I wonder if some Japanese soldiers use that helmet as well. I could imagine one saying, "I'll try this helmet out. Ours is terrible but this rocks."
Sadly all of those divisions got destroyed early in the campaign, they did a very good job at holding the Imperial Japanese army the best they could though, especially in the Battle of Shanghai. Perhaps if those strong division were around in the civil war, the result would be different.
Yeah, most of these divisions were destroyed or at least severely damaged early on in the war. If China had more time to prepare/modernize, the outcome could be a bit different. During the civil war though, many units already had American equipment, which was in many ways better than German equipment. But many units still had some of the German weapons and equipment. We can only guess what could have happened if things were a bit different as we’ll never know for sure. Thanks for watching!
They were pretty much redundant with very limited significance by 1940, their sacrifices weren’t in vain as their contributions helped weaken the japanese to the point that under equipped regional units were able to stand a chance against the japanese and take over the brunt of the fighting
The problem is with American equipment it wasn’t enough to win the civil war as corruption in the KMT was so bad that many of the effective divisions defected to the communists
@@jotarothedixieboo3435 true, however there is still a massive difference between having high quality trained loyal elite divisions compared to randomly made leftovers conscripted large divisions.
Only 66 views ? .....these videos have the makings of a VERY popular channel with tens of thousands of views. Very well researched , edited and presented. I hope you get the attention you deserve very soon!
Thanks you! It’s really encouraging to hear this and it really means a lot to me. I’m glad you enjoyed the videos and I’m in the process of making more so stay tuned!
When you research back to the Meiji Era, you find it more interesting of how the Imperial Japan grew their ambitions and squeezed almost all their resources on expansional forces especially the navy, which was a navy beyond the capability of their resources.
Thanks! I hope you enjoy! The movie is definitely one of the most historically accurate ones to come out of China recently and a lot of work went into the weapons and the uniforms. I once saw an interview with the director where he said that not only did they do their own research, they also enlisted the help of military enthusiasts in China to help make it more accurate. It would be really nice if every historical movie went to these lengths in terms of historical accuracy.
Another interesting video. While not a student of Chinese history, I have had an interest in the Sino - Japanese war since my teens and this video has re-ignited that interest. I am aware, however, of the foreigners who helped the Chinese civilians during the early days of the invasion, such as the German John Rabe in Nanking in 1937 - 1938. Rabe saved up to 200,000 civilians, so the death toll in Nanking could have been so much higher. In fact, there is a German - Chinese movie (John Rabe) about him which came out not long ago. I'll check out the link for The Eight Hundred. The fate of the 88th Division echos so many German divisions in the fighting in Russia. Great video, great input with the period film and photos.
Thanks for watching! Yeah, the foreigners in Nanjing did help save a lot of people. There’s actually a 2009 film of the Nanjing Massacre called City of Life and Death. It’s shot in black and white, like Schindler’s List. I must say that it had a much more profound impact on me than any other war films and it managed to do so without all the blood and gore that we see so often in modern films. You can really experience the fear and despair of the people in the film as you’re watching.
@ HanauMan, most Chinese did learn and know very well about the Nanking masacre (by the brutality ofJapanese army), however, Japanese government is always denying its, instead accused China stirring up the olds to promote ‘hatred’, so are most western countries who are anti China, therefore wanted to forget or denied Japan’s crimes in China, they exaggerated American rules while dismissed, and twisting facts about the Soviets sacrifices in ww2 Europe.
Read a book on Shanghai earlier this year, very complicated issue, but well explained as always. I've heard of the 'rape of nanking'. Regarding your video being unprofessional....erm...I think I've got the trophy for that!. Your videos are excellently put together, clear speech and great use of photos and videos. You do a great job my friend, keep doing it the way you are and leave the unprofessional bumbling, drinking and mucking around to people like me!!!! Ha ha cheers
Thanks! Your videos are not unprofessional lol and I really enjoy your style. I’m glad you enjoyed the video! I hope to do more videos on Shanghai and Nanjing in the future so stay tuned!
It boils down to the logisitics issue again. The right people/equipment/ammo must be available in sufficient numbers at the required moment. The heavy (german) guns didn't come with the heavy halftracks needed for their transport. So they were probably mostly used as "static" defenses (with limited available ammo). The german(PzKpfw I) tanks were not new/lacking quality and the Chinese did complain about this after delivery.
Exactly. The Panzer 1s were not necessarily the best choice, especially considering their armaments were a single pair of machine guns. Not effective against enemy armor. As a result, they were all lost or captured early on in the war. As for the 15cm field howitzers, the Chinese had to make a special order for Henschel tractors/trucks in order to transport them. Not the best mobility combined with a limited ammo supply early on the the war meant that they couldn’t play a very important role. Thanks for watching!
The plan was for the total replacement of warlord troops by these divisions by 1941. Chaing was planning for a war in 1941 or later. This meant only a small number of new divisions were already trained and equipped. Chaing was forced into the war early by warlords and communists; at the same time the Germans cut their aid off and recalled their advisors. This ended real Chinese military strength.
Thanks for watching! The process of selecting units to undergo reorganisation was quite a 'political' one as well and was heavily dependent on their commanders. Who knows what would have happened had the war started later.
@@resistanceremembered The key thing was that the German organized units were to be officered by men loyal to the Nationalist Party; while the majority of the "Chinese Army" were troops loyal to the warlord who had enlisted them. This resulted in half hearted fighting and poor loyalty to the government. Add to this the fact that Chaing to get US aid had to agree to having Stilwell as his chief of staff. The US did not provide the quantity of aid promised, Stilwell was openly dismissive and disrespectful to Chaing, and Chaing was too fond of hIm. Stilwell sent the last if Chaing's German led troops into Burma in 1942 and lost much of what was left of their equipment, these troops had been Chaing's fire brigade to stop Japanese advances. Worse, Stilwell marched into India with the survivors and was out of contact with the US and Chinese governments for a time. Hard to be chief of staff when your playing Corps Commandet in the jungle, Chaing actually is quoted as saying if Stilwell was a Chinese officer that Chaing would have had him executed for dereliction. A relationship made in hell.
@@arthurmosel808 Yeah, but the US came into play much later. Very true about warlord troops. There were also faction loyalty within the KMT. I would say that Stilwell saw issues within the KMT and that was one of the reasons for his disagreements with Chiang. Not that Stilwell was easy to get along with though. Thanks for the comment!
@@resistanceremembered Something you might be interested in, "Kangzhan" by Ness and Shih. It gives a good breakdown of Chinese forces and weapons 1937 to 1945. Another book (unfortunately the notes with its name are boxed here and not readily available) was out there published by MAAG members in Taiwan some years ago. It goes. A little further into the Civil War. One thing I keep looking for was the 1949 State Department White Paper on aid to the Nationalists. I have seen claims of what was in it, and if true, much of the Nationalist Civil War failure is US based, several arms embargoes for example. The real military aid spigot was only opened in 1949, too late to help. Part of this belongs to the wartime OSS and later CIA. In a book about the origins of the CIA, it mentions the strong dislike for the Nationalist by many US agents, some because of Chaing's anti-Christian bias and some beause of strong pro-socialist/communist leanings. By the way another part of Chaing's anger at Stilwell was that Chaing felt that he had sacrificed Chinese to save European/British troops, i.e. anti-Chinese bias.
@@arthurmosel808 Thanks for the recommendation! I've heard of that book but I'm still looking for one at the moment. I completely agree that the US wasn't fond of Chiang and in fact, some would say that there were considerations about replacing him with someone that was easier to work with. This was both during Stilwell's time and after during the Civil War. An interesting person to look at is General Sun Liren (some spell it as Sun Lijen), who was a Chinese officer that graduated from the Virginia Military Institute. He got along really well with American officers and there were rumours that the US favoured him as the leader over Chiang. As such, he was considered a political rival by Chiang and what ended up happening was that he was placed under arrest for over 30 years before finally being freed after Chiang's death.
The unit in the movie was part of the 88th Division. The 88th was one of the ‘German Trained’ reorganized divisions of the Chinese army. I also have videos that talk about the Battle of Sihang Warehouse in detail if you’re interested. Thanks for watching!
the movie was soso, sometimes too dramatic and many scenes make no sense (japanese climb the ladders on the other side, a few floor were left completely empty and undefended) from what i read, the defense of the warehouse was not that dramatic, because the japanese didnt dare to use heavy guns and air force to bomb it fear that shells will land into western control areas across the river, and the warehouse itself is essentially a fortress with thick wall and stored plenty of supplies. it seems like the japanese didnt really commit to taking the warehouse. from what i read, the chinese defenders barely lost any men and they pulled out after a few days, and ended up getting "captured" and imprisoned by the british...but i know there were some special moments like raising the flag on top of the warehouse when half of shanghai had fallen...
You’re correct. The movie was a bit dramatic but personally, it’s within what I can accept haha. This is probably one of the best WW2 films to have come from China in the last few years. But, when compared with historical events, you can tell that the fighting likely wasn’t as intense as the movie. Thanks for watching the video!
Although there were often more Chinese troops than Japanese during a battle, there wasn’t as many German trained reorganized divisions available. Although these German trained units had equal if not better equipment and training, the men and equipment were irreplaceable, unlike the Japanese, who were constantly training their own men and manufacturing their own weapons and equipment. Once a battle became attrition warfare, unfortunately, the Chinese initially had little chance of coming out on top. Thanks for the comment and I hope you enjoyed!
One of the main reasons was that Japan was a bigger threat to the Soviets than the Nationalist Chinese. After the Japanese took over Manchuria (technically created a puppet state), there were constant border conflicts between them and the Soviet Union, eventually leading to the Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939. It was much better for the Soviets to help the Nationalists (as well as the Communist) as that way, the Chinese will be able to help decrease the Japanese threat to the Soviet Union by holding up more Japanese troops. Thanks for watching!
I can’t give an accurate number but I would probably guess that a large number of them were killed. If we look at the first battle these reorganized divisions took part in, The Defense of Shanghai, casualty rates were extremely high. For example, between August and October, troops from a single battalion from the 88th was supplemented/replenished 5 times to replace those killed, with most of the replacements being from local units. This gives an idea of how high the casualty rate was. I would like to know the number of those that survived as well but back then, record keeping was extremely poor, especially for regular soldiers. Thanks for the comment!
@@jotarothedixieboo3435 Of those that were around before 1937, potentially. Since I’m not really sure of the exact percentage, I might give a slightly more conservative estimate just to stay on the safe side but it wouldn’t differ very much from yours. However, given the total number of people killed in China during WW2 and the Civil War, I wouldn’t be surprised if casualty rates went over 90%. Cheers!
@@resistanceremembered …we also have to consider even after the Shanghai bloodbath, the 88th, 87th, 36th, and the Supervision Training Brigade all retreated to Nanjing for the capital’s defense. I don’t believe many escaped alive when last-minute orders were passed down from above to breakout the encirclement. Some of the high level commanders like Tang Shengzhi, Sun Yuanliang basically abandoned their units to flee across the river. I think whatever remained of these divisions’ true strength basically died at Nanjing
@@rayray6490 All i know is their significance was extremely limited during the Taiierzhuang and Wuhan battles. I heard that after Nanking, the 88th division lost 80% of their men while the 87th only had like 300 or so men from the entire division survive
I wouldn’t say China was doing anything wrong, they were trying to modernize their military and at the same time, recognized the importance of not having to rely on other nations. They were acquiring blueprints, building factories, etc. (with help from other nations of course as it would have been difficult to do it alone). There were a few things here and there that could have been done better, but overall, the country was moving in the right direction. The main issue in my opinion was that when war broke out, the military just wasn’t ready yet. A couple years later and things could have been quite different. Thanks for watching!
Those are actually Hanyang 1888 rifles. These were a copy of the German Gewehr 1888 Commission Rifles. The later Chinese production rifles got rid of the barrel jacket so it might look a bit different.
You imply that Chinese failures were due primarily to a lack of training and equipment. They only contributed to their failure, the primary reason was corruption and incompetence at the officer levels and poor morale. To wit: 1) Most Chinese did not want to be a soldier. Corruption in the Chinese army was so rampant that there was little difference between being a soldier and being a bandit. 2) Chinese officers often kept (or short changed) the pay of their soldiers. 3) Chinese officers often sold military equipment for personal gain or the generals kept it for their "private armies". 4) Soldiers were not fed properly or regularly. Chinese officers would sell their rations. 5) When Gen Stillwell trained Chinese troops he banned Chinese officers from interference. Often at the disagreement with Chiang. 6) Chiang had no choice but to extensively use his German trained divisions to defend strategic objectives because "regular" Chinese divisions would be ineffective or dissolve on first contact with the Japanese. 7) One of the differences between Chiang's and Mao's armies; Mao ruthlessly weeded out corrupt officers and they had to endure the same privations as a regular private. Not so in Chiang's army. The officers lived and ate like royalty. The result: Even after being re-equipped by the British and US (at great cost in lives, planes, ships and material), Chiang's army never defeated the Japanese nor achieved any strategic successes. This was one of the reasons the US changed their strategy from bombing Japan from Chinese airbases to island airbases. The Chinese army was incapable to defend those airbases. The Japanese even had the luxury to re-assign their China based troops to other fronts. Chiang and his army contributed zero to nil to the allied war effort. In my opinion, even if Chiang never fought and simply withdrew into the interior of China, the results would've been the same. The Japanese would have to still garrison China with the same amount of troops. How incompetent and corrupt were the Chinese? Well, Gen Stillwell referred to Chiang as "Peanut" and Madam Chiang as the "Dragon Lady". Not exactly terms of endearment. Ignoring Chiang and Chinese corruption and incompetence as the principal reasons for their failure presents a skewed, false and "revisionist" interpretation of history. Thumbs Down.
First of all, thank you for commenting. In response to your comment, I did not imply nor ignore anything as this video was never intended to talk about the reasons for failure. Instead, as the title implies, it is part of a series that introduces the reorganized/German trained divisions to people who may not know very much about the Second Sino-Japanese War. It was never about the entire NRA or the entire war from 31/37-45. The main purpose of this video was to simply compare the weapons, equipment and organization of these reorganized/German trained Chinese divisions with the Japanese. I do agree with most of the points you made and I can go on for days talking about all the different reasons the Chinese were unable to hold back the Japanese but I didn’t because that’s not what the video is about. If there are parts that made you think otherwise, then perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully. Thanks for watching.
Thanks for watching! I can try to answer some of your questions here in the comments. However, like I said in the beginning of the video, this is Part 2. If you haven’t watched Part 1 (link in the description) you should do that first to get some background. Otherwise, feel free to post your questions here. You can also check out the Chinese M35 helmet video as it goes a bit more in depth on the background between Chinese-German cooperation from the late 1800s to the mid 1930s. Hope you enjoy!
The Chinese Air Force and Navy were also practically non-existent when compared to the Japanese (especially Navy). Thus, with essentially no air or naval support and vastly insufficient anti-air and anti-naval weapons, entire Chinese companies would routinely get obliterated by air strikes and naval bombardments. The Chinese also had no answer to the Japanese gas attacks. Chiang Kai-shek and Tang Shengzhi's incompetent/non-existent leadership during the Battle of Nanjing sealed the fate of what was left of the German-trained forces.
You’ve brought up a few of the other reasons for the defeat of Chinese forces during the early stages of the Second Sino Japanese War. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for watching! Things definitely could have been different. However, they faced very different situations so it’s hard to say if that would have been possible for the KMT.
It’s disappointing that not many people make videos about the second Sino Japanese war. You are just as good as mark Felton! Keep it up!
Thanks! That’s really encouraging to hear and I’m glad you enjoyed the video! It is really disappointing that not many people remember China’s role during the war. I’ll continue to make videos on this topic and hopefully, more people will learn of the events that happened in China during the 1930s and 1940s! Thanks again for your support!
Funny thing is, later the Japanese would hand over the captured Stahlhelmet from the Chinese to Japan's Auxiliary troops. My Grandpa use to be memeber of PETA or Kyōdo Bōei Giyūgun (Indonesian Homeland Defenders, Military organization funded by Japan) and he were issued by Stahlhelmet. Those helmet has travel so far from Germany lmao
That’s really interesting! M35s were more widespread during WW2 than most people would have imagined! Thanks for sharing the info!
@@resistanceremembered I wonder if some Japanese soldiers use that helmet as well. I could imagine one saying, "I'll try this helmet out. Ours is terrible but this rocks."
Nazi german stands with Taiwan.ruclips.net/video/BvtGy8WFqyU/видео.html
Sadly all of those divisions got destroyed early in the campaign, they did a very good job at holding the Imperial Japanese army the best they could though, especially in the Battle of Shanghai. Perhaps if those strong division were around in the civil war, the result would be different.
Yeah, most of these divisions were destroyed or at least severely damaged early on in the war. If China had more time to prepare/modernize, the outcome could be a bit different. During the civil war though, many units already had American equipment, which was in many ways better than German equipment. But many units still had some of the German weapons and equipment. We can only guess what could have happened if things were a bit different as we’ll never know for sure. Thanks for watching!
They were pretty much redundant with very limited significance by 1940, their sacrifices weren’t in vain as their contributions helped weaken the japanese to the point that under equipped regional units were able to stand a chance against the japanese and take over the brunt of the fighting
The problem is with American equipment it wasn’t enough to win the civil war as corruption in the KMT was so bad that many of the effective divisions defected to the communists
@@jotarothedixieboo3435 true, however there is still a massive difference between having high quality trained loyal elite divisions compared to randomly made leftovers conscripted large divisions.
@@GazerPVPmc they actually quite a few elite american trained divisions defect to the communists
Only 66 views ? .....these videos have the makings of a VERY popular channel with tens of thousands of views. Very well researched , edited and presented. I hope you get the attention you deserve very soon!
Thanks you! It’s really encouraging to hear this and it really means a lot to me. I’m glad you enjoyed the videos and I’m in the process of making more so stay tuned!
Well, 11k views.
@@HelloHello-sv8xx ....still deserves much more... but 11k is a good start 😀
A very underrated channel on a relatively overlooked topic. Great work,
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoy the content!
When you research back to the Meiji Era, you find it more interesting of how the Imperial Japan grew their ambitions and squeezed almost all their resources on expansional forces especially the navy, which was a navy beyond the capability of their resources.
Thanks for the comment! Hope you enjoyed the video!
@@resistanceremembered Like your videos, plz do more.
Thank you for making a video about east Asia, most people do not know what happened in Asia during ww2. This video is well made and clearly underrated
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm making these videos in an attempt to tell people about what happened in the Far East during the war.
Amazing man!! Again a very good history lessons, thanks for what. And the film looks amazing, I put in on my "definitely watch this movie" list x'D
Thanks! I hope you enjoy! The movie is definitely one of the most historically accurate ones to come out of China recently and a lot of work went into the weapons and the uniforms. I once saw an interview with the director where he said that not only did they do their own research, they also enlisted the help of military enthusiasts in China to help make it more accurate. It would be really nice if every historical movie went to these lengths in terms of historical accuracy.
Another interesting video. While not a student of Chinese history, I have had an interest in the Sino - Japanese war since my teens and this video has re-ignited that interest. I am aware, however, of the foreigners who helped the Chinese civilians during the early days of the invasion, such as the German John Rabe in Nanking in 1937 - 1938. Rabe saved up to 200,000 civilians, so the death toll in Nanking could have been so much higher. In fact, there is a German - Chinese movie (John Rabe) about him which came out not long ago. I'll check out the link for The Eight Hundred. The fate of the 88th Division echos so many German divisions in the fighting in Russia. Great video, great input with the period film and photos.
Thanks for watching! Yeah, the foreigners in Nanjing did help save a lot of people. There’s actually a 2009 film of the Nanjing Massacre called City of Life and Death. It’s shot in black and white, like Schindler’s List. I must say that it had a much more profound impact on me than any other war films and it managed to do so without all the blood and gore that we see so often in modern films. You can really experience the fear and despair of the people in the film as you’re watching.
@ HanauMan, most Chinese did learn and know very well about the Nanking masacre (by the brutality ofJapanese army), however, Japanese government is always denying its, instead accused China stirring up the olds to promote ‘hatred’, so are most western countries who are anti China, therefore wanted to forget or denied Japan’s crimes in China, they exaggerated American rules while dismissed, and twisting facts about the Soviets sacrifices in ww2 Europe.
Read a book on Shanghai earlier this year, very complicated issue, but well explained as always. I've heard of the 'rape of nanking'. Regarding your video being unprofessional....erm...I think I've got the trophy for that!. Your videos are excellently put together, clear speech and great use of photos and videos. You do a great job my friend, keep doing it the way you are and leave the unprofessional bumbling, drinking and mucking around to people like me!!!! Ha ha cheers
Thanks! Your videos are not unprofessional lol and I really enjoy your style. I’m glad you enjoyed the video! I hope to do more videos on Shanghai and Nanjing in the future so stay tuned!
@@resistanceremembered look forward to it 🙂🙂
Another great video...agreed on the sentiment at the end. Thanks for the movie recommendation.
Thanks! I hope you enjoy the film!
It boils down to the logisitics issue again. The right people/equipment/ammo must be available in sufficient numbers at the required moment. The heavy (german) guns didn't come with the heavy halftracks needed for their transport. So they were probably mostly used as "static" defenses (with limited available ammo). The german(PzKpfw I) tanks were not new/lacking quality and the Chinese did complain about this after delivery.
Exactly. The Panzer 1s were not necessarily the best choice, especially considering their armaments were a single pair of machine guns. Not effective against enemy armor. As a result, they were all lost or captured early on in the war. As for the 15cm field howitzers, the Chinese had to make a special order for Henschel tractors/trucks in order to transport them. Not the best mobility combined with a limited ammo supply early on the the war meant that they couldn’t play a very important role. Thanks for watching!
@@resistanceremembered Imagine if they had better German equipment
This is fascinating stuff. I am slowly learning more about China in the 20th century...Thanks for your videos!
I’m glad you find the videos informative! Thanks for your support!
great video. thanks for posting
Thanks for watching!
The plan was for the total replacement of warlord troops by these divisions by 1941. Chaing was planning for a war in 1941 or later. This meant only a small number of new divisions were already trained and equipped. Chaing was forced into the war early by warlords and communists; at the same time the Germans cut their aid off and recalled their advisors. This ended real Chinese military strength.
Thanks for watching! The process of selecting units to undergo reorganisation was quite a 'political' one as well and was heavily dependent on their commanders. Who knows what would have happened had the war started later.
@@resistanceremembered The key thing was that the German organized units were to be officered by men loyal to the Nationalist Party; while the majority of the "Chinese Army" were troops loyal to the warlord who had enlisted them. This resulted in half hearted fighting and poor loyalty to the government. Add to this the fact that Chaing to get US aid had to agree to having Stilwell as his chief of staff. The US did not provide the quantity of aid promised, Stilwell was openly dismissive and disrespectful to Chaing, and Chaing was too fond of hIm. Stilwell sent the last if Chaing's German led troops into Burma in 1942 and lost much of what was left of their equipment, these troops had been Chaing's fire brigade to stop Japanese advances. Worse, Stilwell marched into India with the survivors and was out of contact with the US and Chinese governments for a time. Hard to be chief of staff when your playing Corps Commandet in the jungle, Chaing actually is quoted as saying if Stilwell was a Chinese officer that Chaing would have had him executed for dereliction. A relationship made in hell.
@@arthurmosel808 Yeah, but the US came into play much later. Very true about warlord troops. There were also faction loyalty within the KMT. I would say that Stilwell saw issues within the KMT and that was one of the reasons for his disagreements with Chiang. Not that Stilwell was easy to get along with though. Thanks for the comment!
@@resistanceremembered Something you might be interested in, "Kangzhan" by Ness and Shih. It gives a good breakdown of Chinese forces and weapons 1937 to 1945. Another book (unfortunately the notes with its name are boxed here and not readily available) was out there published by MAAG members in Taiwan some years ago. It goes. A little further into the Civil War. One thing I keep looking for was the 1949 State Department White Paper on aid to the Nationalists. I have seen claims of what was in it, and if true, much of the Nationalist Civil War failure is US based, several arms embargoes for example. The real military aid spigot was only opened in 1949, too late to help. Part of this belongs to the wartime OSS and later CIA. In a book about the origins of the CIA, it mentions the strong dislike for the Nationalist by many US agents, some because of Chaing's anti-Christian bias and some beause of strong pro-socialist/communist leanings. By the way another part of Chaing's anger at Stilwell was that Chaing felt that he had sacrificed Chinese to save European/British troops, i.e. anti-Chinese bias.
@@arthurmosel808 Thanks for the recommendation! I've heard of that book but I'm still looking for one at the moment. I completely agree that the US wasn't fond of Chiang and in fact, some would say that there were considerations about replacing him with someone that was easier to work with. This was both during Stilwell's time and after during the Civil War. An interesting person to look at is General Sun Liren (some spell it as Sun Lijen), who was a Chinese officer that graduated from the Virginia Military Institute. He got along really well with American officers and there were rumours that the US favoured him as the leader over Chiang. As such, he was considered a political rival by Chiang and what ended up happening was that he was placed under arrest for over 30 years before finally being freed after Chiang's death.
is this the unit in the movie
eight hundred.
The unit in the movie was part of the 88th Division. The 88th was one of the ‘German Trained’ reorganized divisions of the Chinese army. I also have videos that talk about the Battle of Sihang Warehouse in detail if you’re interested. Thanks for watching!
the movie was soso, sometimes too dramatic and many scenes make no sense (japanese climb the ladders on the other side, a few floor were left completely empty and undefended) from what i read, the defense of the warehouse was not that dramatic, because the japanese didnt dare to use heavy guns and air force to bomb it fear that shells will land into western control areas across the river, and the warehouse itself is essentially a fortress with thick wall and stored plenty of supplies. it seems like the japanese didnt really commit to taking the warehouse. from what i read, the chinese defenders barely lost any men and they pulled out after a few days, and ended up getting "captured" and imprisoned by the british...but i know there were some special moments like raising the flag on top of the warehouse when half of shanghai had fallen...
You’re correct. The movie was a bit dramatic but personally, it’s within what I can accept haha. This is probably one of the best WW2 films to have come from China in the last few years. But, when compared with historical events, you can tell that the fighting likely wasn’t as intense as the movie. Thanks for watching the video!
Reasons are simple, they were out numbered and out gunned
Although there were often more Chinese troops than Japanese during a battle, there wasn’t as many German trained reorganized divisions available. Although these German trained units had equal if not better equipment and training, the men and equipment were irreplaceable, unlike the Japanese, who were constantly training their own men and manufacturing their own weapons and equipment. Once a battle became attrition warfare, unfortunately, the Chinese initially had little chance of coming out on top. Thanks for the comment and I hope you enjoyed!
I have one question, why Stalin sell T-26 & T-38 tankettes to KMT even though they are ideologically systematically opposed to eachother?
One of the main reasons was that Japan was a bigger threat to the Soviets than the Nationalist Chinese. After the Japanese took over Manchuria (technically created a puppet state), there were constant border conflicts between them and the Soviet Union, eventually leading to the Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939. It was much better for the Soviets to help the Nationalists (as well as the Communist) as that way, the Chinese will be able to help decrease the Japanese threat to the Soviet Union by holding up more Japanese troops. Thanks for watching!
ngl this somehow re motivated me to play rising storm 2 again
Out of the original 300,000 reorganised soldier, how many do u think survived til the end of the war?
I can’t give an accurate number but I would probably guess that a large number of them were killed. If we look at the first battle these reorganized divisions took part in, The Defense of Shanghai, casualty rates were extremely high. For example, between August and October, troops from a single battalion from the 88th was supplemented/replenished 5 times to replace those killed, with most of the replacements being from local units. This gives an idea of how high the casualty rate was. I would like to know the number of those that survived as well but back then, record keeping was extremely poor, especially for regular soldiers. Thanks for the comment!
@@resistanceremembered i mean my estimate is around 90%-95% casualties by the end of the war, would u agree?
@@jotarothedixieboo3435 Of those that were around before 1937, potentially. Since I’m not really sure of the exact percentage, I might give a slightly more conservative estimate just to stay on the safe side but it wouldn’t differ very much from yours. However, given the total number of people killed in China during WW2 and the Civil War, I wouldn’t be surprised if casualty rates went over 90%. Cheers!
@@resistanceremembered …we also have to consider even after the Shanghai bloodbath, the 88th, 87th, 36th, and the Supervision Training Brigade all retreated to Nanjing for the capital’s defense. I don’t believe many escaped alive when last-minute orders were passed down from above to breakout the encirclement. Some of the high level commanders like Tang Shengzhi, Sun Yuanliang basically abandoned their units to flee across the river. I think whatever remained of these divisions’ true strength basically died at Nanjing
@@rayray6490 All i know is their significance was extremely limited during the Taiierzhuang and Wuhan battles. I heard that after Nanking, the 88th division lost 80% of their men while the 87th only had like 300 or so men from the entire division survive
Question though what would been better in training and preparing China armed forces, than relying on Germany........
Training...
Tactics....
Weapons..
I wouldn’t say China was doing anything wrong, they were trying to modernize their military and at the same time, recognized the importance of not having to rely on other nations. They were acquiring blueprints, building factories, etc. (with help from other nations of course as it would have been difficult to do it alone). There were a few things here and there that could have been done better, but overall, the country was moving in the right direction. The main issue in my opinion was that when war broke out, the military just wasn’t ready yet. A couple years later and things could have been quite different. Thanks for watching!
Why is the Chinese troop on the front image holding an Italian Made Carcano m91 rifle?
Those are actually Hanyang 1888 rifles. These were a copy of the German Gewehr 1888 Commission Rifles. The later Chinese production rifles got rid of the barrel jacket so it might look a bit different.
@@resistanceremembered Ah. So its a Gewehr rifle.
@@VisualdelightPro Yup. However, some Carcano rifles were indeed used by the Chinese. Some were also later captured by the Japanese as well.
You imply that Chinese failures were due primarily to a lack of training and equipment. They only contributed to their failure, the primary reason was corruption and incompetence at the officer levels and poor morale. To wit:
1) Most Chinese did not want to be a soldier. Corruption in the Chinese army was so rampant that there was little difference between being a soldier and being a bandit.
2) Chinese officers often kept (or short changed) the pay of their soldiers.
3) Chinese officers often sold military equipment for personal gain or the generals kept it for their "private armies".
4) Soldiers were not fed properly or regularly. Chinese officers would sell their rations.
5) When Gen Stillwell trained Chinese troops he banned Chinese officers from interference. Often at the disagreement with Chiang.
6) Chiang had no choice but to extensively use his German trained divisions to defend strategic objectives because "regular" Chinese divisions would be ineffective or dissolve on first contact with the Japanese.
7) One of the differences between Chiang's and Mao's armies; Mao ruthlessly weeded out corrupt officers and they had to endure the same privations as a regular private. Not so in Chiang's army. The officers lived and ate like royalty.
The result: Even after being re-equipped by the British and US (at great cost in lives, planes, ships and material), Chiang's army never defeated the Japanese nor achieved any strategic successes. This was one of the reasons the US changed their strategy from bombing Japan from Chinese airbases to island airbases. The Chinese army was incapable to defend those airbases. The Japanese even had the luxury to re-assign their China based troops to other fronts. Chiang and his army contributed zero to nil to the allied war effort. In my opinion, even if Chiang never fought and simply withdrew into the interior of China, the results would've been the same. The Japanese would have to still garrison China with the same amount of troops.
How incompetent and corrupt were the Chinese? Well, Gen Stillwell referred to Chiang as "Peanut" and Madam Chiang as the "Dragon Lady". Not exactly terms of endearment.
Ignoring Chiang and Chinese corruption and incompetence as the principal reasons for their failure presents a skewed, false and "revisionist" interpretation of history. Thumbs Down.
First of all, thank you for commenting. In response to your comment, I did not imply nor ignore anything as this video was never intended to talk about the reasons for failure. Instead, as the title implies, it is part of a series that introduces the reorganized/German trained divisions to people who may not know very much about the Second Sino-Japanese War. It was never about the entire NRA or the entire war from 31/37-45. The main purpose of this video was to simply compare the weapons, equipment and organization of these reorganized/German trained Chinese divisions with the Japanese. I do agree with most of the points you made and I can go on for days talking about all the different reasons the Chinese were unable to hold back the Japanese but I didn’t because that’s not what the video is about. If there are parts that made you think otherwise, then perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully. Thanks for watching.
It's confusing me.
Thanks for watching! I can try to answer some of your questions here in the comments. However, like I said in the beginning of the video, this is Part 2. If you haven’t watched Part 1 (link in the description) you should do that first to get some background. Otherwise, feel free to post your questions here. You can also check out the Chinese M35 helmet video as it goes a bit more in depth on the background between Chinese-German cooperation from the late 1800s to the mid 1930s. Hope you enjoy!
Yes tovarisch general
@@myreactiontothatinformatio6344 😂 Hope that helped!
where are you from?Chinese people?
Thanks for watching! Hope you enjoyed the video!
9 like
Thanks for watching and thanks for the like!
The Chinese Air Force and Navy were also practically non-existent when compared to the Japanese (especially Navy). Thus, with essentially no air or naval support and vastly insufficient anti-air and anti-naval weapons, entire Chinese companies would routinely get obliterated by air strikes and naval bombardments. The Chinese also had no answer to the Japanese gas attacks. Chiang Kai-shek and Tang Shengzhi's incompetent/non-existent leadership during the Battle of Nanjing sealed the fate of what was left of the German-trained forces.
You’ve brought up a few of the other reasons for the defeat of Chinese forces during the early stages of the Second Sino Japanese War. Thanks for watching!
@@resistanceremembered Well Chiang may not be a great leader, he did try to unite all of China to fight a common enemy.
if the kmt reunited the country andrebuilt the country in 5 years like the communist they would have fared better in that war.
Thanks for watching! Things definitely could have been different. However, they faced very different situations so it’s hard to say if that would have been possible for the KMT.
English stronger than German
Thanks for watching!
German is stronger than Japanese and Chinese
Thanks for watching!