This is an excelent demo on capacitance and dielectrics. The high voltage creates a more extreme condition that is easier to examine. The other video- Adjustable capacitor with dielectric- supports this as well. A quote from that video: "This is one of the main reasons capacitors are built with dielectrics between their plates; more charge can be stored at a lower voltage." Think about it and dont forget that air is a weak dielectric, glass and plastics are stronger dielectrics.
@SIMKINETICS simply because the point where he is picking up the jar is neutral U(electric potential)=Vm-Vn=L/q. We are talking about an dielectric a non conductive material that will charge up only on the area where the charge Vm and Vn are inducted by copper. If you are looking carefully he is touching the area where the copper armature's weren't charge inductive so the Vm and Vn on that area = to almost 0 coulombs If U= Vm-Vn then U = almost 0 Volts.
My dad was a University Physics Professor and a High School Physics Teacher, and I don't believe that it ever crossed our minds to do or that or that this 'demo' was even possible! That is that static electricity could 'work' in this way since all of the textbooks and such show you little ---'s and +++'s on the plates of capacitors and balloons and cat's fur and such that we never imagined that the energy would be stored in the dielectric in this case, the glass. How about a vacuum or a gas?
We do know that the energy is excusively stored in the dielectric (or if no dielectric, in vaccum). The energy density is half epsilon times the electric field squared. But we also know that without the charges on the plates, the electric field is 0.
the glass holds an electric field. when the electric field is separated between plates of unequal influence one plate gain more negative charge than the other, the difference between them create voltage.
I believe the surface of the glass is conductive in the giga- or teraohm range. So the glass itself forms a capacitor. There should be an air gap between the surface of glass and the electrodes, so no electrons can move from metal to glass. Then the outcome should be very different.
If all the comments on how this demonstration works and why there is a charge when the jar was reassembled, only two comments were near right, Sad, very sad.
@jbignes5 Fortunately it could be very easily proved. Just connect back dielectric to another metal plates from other Leyden jar and try to discharge.I'm very curious about results!
Is the sodium in the glass "ionised" leading to a potential difference (aka "pressure" due to "thermal voltage") or is it a "flow of electron particles"?
I would like to see the demonstration tested by swapping out the beaker with another to see where the charge is actually stored. I have an ion generator circuit out of an old air purifier. I may just test this out myself with some homemade Leyden jars made of tin foil and beakers.
I disagree. To start off I think the demonstration is pretty clear. Nature is never wrong, only theories, our expectations of how things will behave are. We tend to preinterpret because of our past experiences. We can't have progress in science if we walk away from everything conflicting our view of the world. He shorted the plates without the dielectric so the conclusion is that the dielectric is the key not the metal. It polarized the dielectric itself and the metal is just the tool for its creation and need not to be present to keep it. So dielectric/insulator materials are hard to polarize but just as hard to depolarize and conductors are easy to polarize and depolarize, same as ferromagnetic and non ferromagnetic materials and the ease of magnetisation of them is. In fact the rule of inseperability of magnetic and electric fields is the reason for this behavioural difference. This means the metal itself only fastens the process of discharge which happens by itself by "leakage" (if there is such a thing as extra and missing electrons in a material to begin with). So basically this would mean the conductors can barely hold charge and insulators can hold it with ease. This doesn't necessarely mean they have greater capacitance, than a conductor. It just means they have a hard time leaking through without the help of a field that metals can facilitate with their "magnificating" property. It's like metals "eat up" the field lines to create the electric bridge between points in space. Hence we get a shock when we brush the carpet too much and touch metals. Or maybe every textbook is wrong and this has nothing to do with polarization lol. One thing is sure: Something is REALLY BACKWARDS with our understanding. I always thought that the language and vocabulary created to describe these phenomenon are LACKING greatly and keep us trapped in this circle of thinking. This field of reasearch has been abandoned in it's infancy and we still had no progress to be quite honest. "Why?" you may ask: We still just improve on the same ideas but nothing else. The funny thing is that in this case the early concepts of the creators of electric theory are more right than our modern whack of bouncy balls interacting. Michael Faraday and JJ Thompson have a better grasp of reality than most of us will ever have on this because of their experimental, natural approach to science, not mathematical inventing like relativitists approach everything. It's never equation and preinterpetaion first and finding fitting data to prove it, but experimenting first and arriving at relations then going back to experimenting with other conditions. I don't like where we are heading with this holy gospel of relativity and quantum theory when even Einstein himself publicly said that his theory may not hold up. It happened after Dayton Miller has redone the experiment with different conditions and succeeded in detecting a directional deviation of the speed of light. The ether is real. "I believe that I have really found the relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards." - Albert Einstein, in a letter to Robert Millikan, June 1921 (in Clark 1971, p.328) "You imagine that I look back on my life's work with calm satisfaction. But from nearby it looks quite different. There is not a single concept of which I am convinced that it will stand firm, and I feel uncertain whether I am in general on the right track." - Albert Einstein, on his 70th birthday, in a letter to Maurice Solovine, 28 March 1949 (in B. Hoffman Albert Einstein: Creator and Rebel 1972, p.328)
@@akosv96 - Well put. Quantum nonsense has infected modern science. Classical field theory is now replaced by 'Quantum' field theory. You are now not allowed, it seems, to mention field theory without the word 'quantum' attached to it. If you dare, you will instantly be dismissed and banished to the looney corner. If you mention the term 'dielectric induction' these days, intelligentsia will look at you sideways as the term 'deielctricity' has no meaning in modern science. Dielectricity even gets a the red squiggly underline from Google. If one even suggests pointing to the absurdity of the concept of an electron, one may as well be certifiable. Keeping in mind that all one can do is speculate, this is what I perceive is happening. Both copper and glass are dielectric entities with equally unique attributes. Both copper and glass are induced and affected by, convergent energy pressure gradients (dielectricity). Unlike glass, magnetic displacement (a magnetic field) will develop from the copper matrix as an effect of dielectricity coupling with a permanent magnet (Wimshurst Machine). Glass will accept dielectricity however its magnitude will not change to the same extent, i.e., large magnetic displacement (a magnetic field) will not manifest in glass as a result of dielectric coupling. The dielectricity of the glass however, will induce copper when reintroduced, hence it is able to provide the dielectric prime mover to the copper matrix magnetic displacement.
The weird thing is that it was so easy to separate the metal from the dielectric material. By conventional theory there is a strong attraction between the charges on the metal and the polarization charges on the dialectric. Also the dielectric material cannot remain polarized, after disconnecting the metal 😮
> cannot be misleading if it shows a real phenomena Sure it can, if the phenomenon doesn't happen with capacitors in general, but only if extreme high voltage is used. Avoid corona effects by performing the demo at 1V rather than 50,000V. Another possible fix: charge the plates while separated, *then* assemble the capacitor w/dielectric and continue as shown. That should get rid of corona which otherwise allows charge to leap through space and move to the dielectric surface.
> charge is inside glass ...is is true? Nope. It only occurs in gas, and at extreme high voltages. The charge starts out on the plates, as with any air capacitor or vacuum capacitor. But if the voltage is pumped high to create corona discharge, then the charges will leap across the gap from metal to glass. Physically separating the plates also can cause the charge to leap to the glass surface. Separating the plates causes the voltage to skyrocket, creating corona discharge.
holy crap I was not expecting to see your name here. I was thinking about the concepts of charge, and came to the conclusion that deconstructing a capacitor would cause an astronomical voltage spike. this video put a hole in that idea, but your explanation makes some sense. I guess it is good that these random tangents lead me to your stomping grounds.
> cannot be misleading if Go watch their other demo: Adjustable capacitor with dielectric. That one shows how all capacitors operate, and isn't being used to fool the unwary.
Even though dielectrically induced, there is no magnetic field associated with the glass. That means, there is no field to eliminate. Copper on the other hand, develops an magnetic field in response to dielectric induction.
Why didn't the charge "pop" into your hand when you touched the Leyden Jar, like a carpet spark? The human body conducts electricity excellently (because it's mostly made of saltwater). Were you standing on an insulating pad?
This video is misleading. See the Wikipedia entry on Leyden jars. When disassembling the leyden jar, the capacitor discharges onto the water adsorbed onto the surface of the glass. If one bakes the water off the beaker first, the effect shown in this video disappears.
brahmabullsj: my thought too, it simply doesn't make any sense, the charges must be remaining with the dielectric because firstly the separated capacitor has no energy, that is illogical if the actual charge containing plates were being separated as that is the very principle the Wimhurst used to generate it's voltage in the first place. Clearly the metal plates didn't remove the charge imbalance, therefore this capacitor isn't really being dissected. This is then an illusion, a trick.
Misleading! This shows odd misbehavior which only occurs at high voltage. For a demo with fewer misconceptions, go watch their other one:MIT PHYSICS DEMO ADJUSTABLE CAPACITOR WITH DIELECTRIC
Electrical Charge can't be stored on the electrolyte (Glass in this case) either, otherwise the experimenter would have discharged the field when he touched the glass. I'd like to see this experiment run again with a control beaker, so we can possibly rule out the effect being intrinsic to the glass.
That's because there is no such thing as 'charge' only DIELECTRIC FLUX. Everything is ABSOLUTELY field mechanics. Charged particles idiot. Something can exists from NOTHINGNESS OF SPACE idiot. Space bending doesn't BREAK BONES einsteiniam idiots. Imaginary virtual particles instead of REAL magnetic FIELD idiots. 1-D rubber bands, string theory idiots. LMFAO for all the stupid and retarded shits which has ZERO LOGIC.
@@lukiepoole6701 heavy scene dood! Your right but slow up huh!!! many people only know what they know from what they know. Your not special dood. is the power of knowledge too much for your damaged ego? before you learnt this knowledge were you an idiot too? or were you born a demigod?
Hello! Try please connect to the contacts электрофорной machines of high voltage, having removed gum. I will wait a video clip. In my opinion should get out of the car engine!?
It is not so hard to figure out what is going on. We all know the peizo effect? The glass is the capacitor in this case. The voltages are stored in the subatomic structure as vibrations. This is all done via the ability of the metal to interface with the glass on each side of the surface of the glass. Charge is held inside the glass in the many layers via the two plates on either side by the metal. Metal is a conduit not a storage mechanism.
No, this is really misleading. In a capacitor the charge is stored in the metal plates, not in the glass. Between the plates there is a net difference of charges, that is a plates hold more electrons than the other one. If I make the two plates touch the difference of charge disappear. The glass doesn' t hold or transfer any charge to the plates.
@frapente :)) lol go back to electrostatics dude . learn that a non conductive material can be charged with pozitive or negative charge by another object charged with one side(+ or -) , the capacitor is nothing else but that only the dielectric material(glass here) on one side is positive charged by pozitive armature(coper here) and on the other side is charged negative by the negative armature .
It is a trick, but I am not saying the creators are intentionally tricking anyone, it is a misleading experiment, it is the high voltage that is creating the illusion. If the capacitor plates were properly insulated for high voltage the capacitor would discharge when pulled apart and not discharge reassembled.
Glass is the dielectric, which is polarised. When a electric field meter is hold close to the glass (plates removed) it will measure this field
Displacement current !?
@@ShimoronSir displacement current will only flow though the glass(!), when the voltage is changing on the plate(s)
This is an excelent demo on capacitance and dielectrics. The high voltage creates a more extreme condition that is easier to examine. The other video- Adjustable capacitor with dielectric- supports this as well. A quote from that video:
"This is one of the main reasons capacitors are built with dielectrics between their plates; more charge can be stored at a lower voltage."
Think about it and dont forget that air is a weak dielectric, glass and plastics are stronger dielectrics.
@SIMKINETICS
simply because the point where he is picking up the jar is neutral U(electric potential)=Vm-Vn=L/q. We are talking about an dielectric a non conductive material that will charge up only on the area where the charge Vm and Vn are inducted by copper. If you are looking carefully he is touching the area where the copper armature's weren't charge inductive so the Vm and Vn on that area = to almost 0 coulombs If U= Vm-Vn then U = almost 0 Volts.
My dad was a University Physics Professor and a High School Physics Teacher, and I don't believe that it ever crossed our minds to do or that or that this 'demo' was even possible! That is that static electricity could 'work' in this way since all of the textbooks and such show you little ---'s and +++'s on the plates of capacitors and balloons and cat's fur and such that we never imagined that the energy would be stored in the dielectric in this case, the glass. How about a vacuum or a gas?
We do know that the energy is excusively stored in the dielectric (or if no dielectric, in vaccum). The energy density is half epsilon times the electric field squared. But we also know that without the charges on the plates, the electric field is 0.
the glass holds an electric field. when the electric field is separated between plates of unequal influence one plate gain more negative charge than the other, the difference between them create voltage.
Maybe more people would get it if you reassembled the jar with different plates.
I believe the surface of the glass is conductive in the giga- or teraohm range. So the glass itself forms a capacitor. There should be an air gap between the surface of glass and the electrodes, so no electrons can move from metal to glass. Then the outcome should be very different.
If all the comments on how this demonstration works and why there is a charge when the jar was reassembled, only two comments were near right, Sad, very sad.
@jbignes5
Fortunately it could be very easily proved. Just connect back dielectric to another metal plates from other Leyden jar and try to discharge.I'm very curious about results!
Is the sodium in the glass "ionised" leading to a potential difference (aka "pressure" due to "thermal voltage") or is it a "flow of electron particles"?
Leyden jar is Statical transformator.
Charge is stored in dielectric.
But, why hand not discharge him?
Thanks for demonstration.
I would like to see the demonstration tested by swapping out the beaker with another to see where the charge is actually stored. I have an ion generator circuit out of an old air purifier. I may just test this out myself with some homemade Leyden jars made of tin foil and beakers.
Yes, I agree.
I disagree. To start off I think the demonstration is pretty clear. Nature is never wrong, only theories, our expectations of how things will behave are. We tend to preinterpret because of our past experiences. We can't have progress in science if we walk away from everything conflicting our view of the world.
He shorted the plates without the dielectric so the conclusion is that the dielectric is the key not the metal. It polarized the dielectric itself and the metal is just the tool for its creation and need not to be present to keep it. So dielectric/insulator materials are hard to polarize but just as hard to depolarize and conductors are easy to polarize and depolarize, same as ferromagnetic and non ferromagnetic materials and the ease of magnetisation of them is. In fact the rule of inseperability of magnetic and electric fields is the reason for this behavioural difference. This means the metal itself only fastens the process of discharge which happens by itself by "leakage" (if there is such a thing as extra and missing electrons in a material to begin with). So basically this would mean the conductors can barely hold charge and insulators can hold it with ease. This doesn't necessarely mean they have greater capacitance, than a conductor. It just means they have a hard time leaking through without the help of a field that metals can facilitate with their "magnificating" property. It's like metals "eat up" the field lines to create the electric bridge between points in space. Hence we get a shock when we brush the carpet too much and touch metals. Or maybe every textbook is wrong and this has nothing to do with polarization lol. One thing is sure: Something is REALLY BACKWARDS with our understanding. I always thought that the language and vocabulary created to describe these phenomenon are LACKING greatly and keep us trapped in this circle of thinking.
This field of reasearch has been abandoned in it's infancy and we still had no progress to be quite honest. "Why?" you may ask: We still just improve on the same ideas but nothing else. The funny thing is that in this case the early concepts of the creators of electric theory are more right than our modern whack of bouncy balls interacting. Michael Faraday and JJ Thompson have a better grasp of reality than most of us will ever have on this because of their experimental, natural approach to science, not mathematical inventing like relativitists approach everything. It's never equation and preinterpetaion first and finding fitting data to prove it, but experimenting first and arriving at relations then going back to experimenting with other conditions. I don't like where we are heading with this holy gospel of relativity and quantum theory when even Einstein himself publicly said that his theory may not hold up. It happened after Dayton Miller has redone the experiment with different conditions and succeeded in detecting a directional deviation of the speed of light. The ether is real.
"I believe that I have really found the
relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the
Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the
whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards."
- Albert Einstein, in a letter to Robert Millikan, June 1921 (in Clark 1971, p.328)
"You imagine that I look back on my life's work
with calm satisfaction. But from nearby it looks quite different. There
is not a single concept of which I am convinced that it will stand firm,
and I feel uncertain whether I am in general on the right track."
- Albert Einstein, on his 70th birthday, in a letter to Maurice Solovine, 28 March 1949 (in B. Hoffman Albert Einstein: Creator and Rebel 1972, p.328)
@@akosv96 - Well put. Quantum nonsense has infected modern science. Classical field theory is now replaced by 'Quantum' field theory. You are now not allowed, it seems, to mention field theory without the word 'quantum' attached to it. If you dare, you will instantly be dismissed and banished to the looney corner. If you mention the term 'dielectric induction' these days, intelligentsia will look at you sideways as the term 'deielctricity' has no meaning in modern science. Dielectricity even gets a the red squiggly underline from Google. If one even suggests pointing to the absurdity of the concept of an electron, one may as well be certifiable.
Keeping in mind that all one can do is speculate, this is what I perceive is happening. Both copper and glass are dielectric entities with equally unique attributes. Both copper and glass are induced and affected by, convergent energy pressure gradients (dielectricity). Unlike glass, magnetic displacement (a magnetic field) will develop from the copper matrix as an effect of dielectricity coupling with a permanent magnet (Wimshurst Machine). Glass will accept dielectricity however its magnitude will not change to the same extent, i.e., large magnetic displacement (a magnetic field) will not manifest in glass as a result of dielectric coupling. The dielectricity of the glass however, will induce copper when reintroduced, hence it is able to provide the dielectric prime mover to the copper matrix magnetic displacement.
@@akosv96 Any Chance 2 Link This ? Can't Copy The Page /Text Please & Thank You BeWellAlways
Wow, I needed to see that.! Thank you. hey, Does this mean conductive plates in a vacuum hold no charge?
dielectric hold the charge in crystaline form. Its geometry is the key
@@FreeKanal No, this happens because the charges jump from the plates to dielectric.
@@uk4725 No, the glass holds the Dielectric field, the Copper is a reflector.
The weird thing is that it was so easy to separate the metal from the dielectric material. By conventional theory there is a strong attraction between the charges on the metal and the polarization charges on the dialectric. Also the dielectric material cannot remain polarized, after disconnecting the metal 😮
> cannot be misleading if it shows a real phenomena
Sure it can, if the phenomenon doesn't happen with capacitors in general, but only if extreme high voltage is used.
Avoid corona effects by performing the demo at 1V rather than 50,000V.
Another possible fix: charge the plates while separated, *then* assemble the capacitor w/dielectric and continue as shown. That should get rid of corona which otherwise allows charge to leap through space and move to the dielectric surface.
Very cool MIT, thanks!
> charge is inside glass ...is is true?
Nope. It only occurs in gas, and at extreme high voltages.
The charge starts out on the plates, as with any air capacitor or vacuum capacitor. But if the voltage is pumped high to create corona discharge, then the charges will leap across the gap from metal to glass.
Physically separating the plates also can cause the charge to leap to the glass surface. Separating the plates causes the voltage to skyrocket, creating corona discharge.
holy crap I was not expecting to see your name here. I was thinking about the concepts of charge, and came to the conclusion that deconstructing a capacitor would cause an astronomical voltage spike. this video put a hole in that idea, but your explanation makes some sense. I guess it is good that these random tangents lead me to your stomping grounds.
Wow, Cool demo! Thank you for sharing.
The Angry Photographer brought me here. 👍👍
The demolition front is coming. Potential really explained...
Mau Tsukuda same
Same
Yup.
The energy is stored in the plates, in this case the small film of water on the glass :-)
> cannot be misleading if
Go watch their other demo: Adjustable capacitor with dielectric. That one shows how all capacitors operate, and isn't being used to fool the unwary.
@rastarockerzz When he picks up the pyrex beaker, why doesn't the charge conduct to his hand?
Even though dielectrically induced, there is no magnetic field associated with the glass. That means, there is no field to eliminate. Copper on the other hand, develops an magnetic field in response to dielectric induction.
Ken Wheeler from Theoria Apophasis brought me here.
Same
thats simply-sickky man !!
Awesome...
Why didn't the charge "pop" into your hand when you touched the Leyden Jar, like a carpet spark? The human body conducts electricity excellently (because it's mostly made of saltwater). Were you standing on an insulating pad?
amazing
This video is misleading. See the Wikipedia entry on Leyden jars. When disassembling the leyden jar, the capacitor discharges onto the water adsorbed onto the surface of the glass. If one bakes the water off the beaker first, the effect shown in this video disappears.
brahmabullsj: my thought too, it simply doesn't make any sense, the charges must be remaining with the dielectric because firstly the separated capacitor has no energy, that is illogical if the actual charge containing plates were being separated as that is the very principle the Wimhurst used to generate it's voltage in the first place.
Clearly the metal plates didn't remove the charge imbalance, therefore this capacitor isn't really being dissected. This is then an illusion, a trick.
A trick? Again? use OIL LMFAO. Charged particles IDIOITS. I have give a lecture above. I am NOT going to say again LMFAO.
Misleading!
This shows odd misbehavior which only occurs at high voltage. For a demo with fewer misconceptions, go watch their other one:MIT PHYSICS DEMO ADJUSTABLE CAPACITOR WITH DIELECTRIC
Electrical Charge can't be stored on the electrolyte (Glass in this case) either, otherwise the experimenter would have discharged the field when he touched the glass. I'd like to see this experiment run again with a control beaker, so we can possibly rule out the effect being intrinsic to the glass.
That's because there is no such thing as 'charge' only DIELECTRIC FLUX. Everything is ABSOLUTELY field mechanics. Charged particles idiot. Something can exists from NOTHINGNESS OF SPACE idiot. Space bending doesn't BREAK BONES einsteiniam idiots. Imaginary virtual particles instead of REAL magnetic FIELD idiots. 1-D rubber bands, string theory idiots. LMFAO for all the stupid and retarded shits which has ZERO LOGIC.
@@lukiepoole6701 heavy scene dood! Your right but slow up huh!!! many people only know what they know from what they know. Your not special dood. is the power of knowledge too much for your damaged ego? before you learnt this knowledge were you an idiot too? or were you born a demigod?
@@lukiepoole6701 FLUX= FLOW. What's flowing...???
@@atmospheres11 lol the comment is super old. My ego died out dw xD
@@PasajeroDelToro Not flowing. Dielectric flux is just perturbation of aether, parallel to matter, waveguide.
Impressive coming from MIT ! ;)
Before I can draw a conclusion, I would like to see the same experiment done with a different leyden jar made of wood.
I don't think wood would hold enough charge that it could make such a spark. Wood is also a dielectric but far from being good as glass
Hello! Try please connect to the contacts электрофорной machines of high voltage, having removed gum. I will wait a video clip. In my opinion should get out of the car engine!?
WTF??? Did you fall off your chair and hit your head on the floor just prior to writing this cryptic comment?
Now that's cool.
Shocking discovery.
Wow! How to balance this with the MIT demo where the voltage goes WAY WAY up when capacitor plates are separated... This really intrigues me!
HOW??? please explain :/
The glass itself is the capacitor, not the plates
My mind is blown.
muito legal
It is not so hard to figure out what is going on. We all know the peizo effect? The glass is the capacitor in this case. The voltages are stored in the subatomic structure as vibrations. This is all done via the ability of the metal to interface with the glass on each side of the surface of the glass. Charge is held inside the glass in the many layers via the two plates on either side by the metal. Metal is a conduit not a storage mechanism.
No, this is really misleading.
In a capacitor the charge is stored in the metal plates, not in the glass.
Between the plates there is a net difference of charges, that is a plates hold more electrons than the other one. If I make the two plates touch the difference of charge disappear.
The glass doesn' t hold or transfer any charge to the plates.
Are you a wizard?
i think you made a Magnetto
looks like im surrounded by a bunch of nerds.
@frapente :)) lol go back to electrostatics dude . learn that a non conductive material can be charged with pozitive or negative charge by another object charged with one side(+ or -) , the capacitor is nothing else but that only the dielectric material(glass here) on one side is positive charged by pozitive armature(coper here) and on the other side is charged negative by the negative armature .
It is a trick, but I am not saying the creators are intentionally tricking anyone, it is a misleading experiment, it is the high voltage that is creating the illusion. If the capacitor plates were properly insulated for high voltage the capacitor would discharge when pulled apart and not discharge reassembled.
trick? or REAL. DIY. Do the ecperiment yourself before you come to a useless conclusion. Use OIL which does not 'conduct' electricity LMFAO.