One thing I think was missed here and that is the “fechtschule” of the 1500s. The longsword was mostly on its way out as a battlefield weapon, but the history of teaching longsword as a martial and sporting discipline was maintained as an athletic pursuit. We have a culture of fencing as a sporting pursuit that goes back to the old days. We have historical examples of blunt training swords, “federschwert” or feather swords, from the German tradition that were obviously used for training and sporting purposes. Fencing competitions were less than lethal, and pride and recognition were the rewards for fencing well. I think this is what HEMA is trying to revive above all, a tradition of martially valid fencing that is also a sporting pursuit.
Yes. I should have mentioned this. I was always under the impression that the fechtschule tradition eventually died out and no schools teaching longsword today can trace their lineage back to this.
@@esgrimaxativa5175 no you aren’t mistaken. The lineage did die out, but through the historical works, we are trying to revive the traditions and teachings of the old masters.
The longsword was still very much in use on the battlefield even far later, and I;m not even talking about the montante/spadone/slachschwert type big two handed swords. It was just used as a secondary weapon. Sometimes amongst pikemen and halberdiers, sometimes by crossbowmen and archers for melee combat (albeit it wasn't the most common sidearm for sure). One of the advantages of longsword was not that it was 'best' suited for any one thing necessarily .For one on one something like a montante or rapier is superior to a longsword on average, and it doesnt necessarily have a huge advantage if any over other one handed swords, for group and formation combat polearms are always better as primaries. But you could use a longsword alone in two hands in a variety of contexts, you could use it from horseback or while scaling a ladder, or pushing a battering ram, etc. It was also seen as a 'knightly' weapon so even many who weren't actually knights by any definition would almost use it as a part of a social 'larp' of knightly behavior. Such things are part of the fechtschule culture too and we can see echoes of this in Meyer's work too for example(his work was fairly likely strongly related to fechtschules in various ways, but it was definitely not only for the fechtschule since even his longsword section containts material that would be banned in the fechtschule rulesets we know of). Also interestingly when one looks at the variety of 'longsword' sources we see there's a far variety of reasons and types of contexts mentioned from sportive to combative, from non lethal to not intentionally but potentially lethal, to lethality being accepted but not desired, all the way to lethality being desired at least in some situations. Tlustly's work is an interesting read on this topic. But the children of the sun culture, obviously not only longsword related, is a beatufil and interesting phenomenon I wish more people knew about. Hopefully @SlicerSabre covers that in some future video.Slicer, if you;re reading this -articles and lectures by Adam Franti, Jean Chandler, Roger Norling, Liam Clark off the top of my head all cover a lot of the relevant material and reference further reading if you're ever interested in digging deeper. If you can;t find any of it tag or message me and I;ll link it all.
As a newbie HEMA sabre fencer with an interest in the historical connections from modern fencing to the fencing styles studied in HEMA, I loved this video. Would love to see more history content from your channel!
Great video and one that I think is long needed in the Hema vs. Olympic Fencing discussion. I'll definitely use this video when people complain about Olympic Fencing.
Very, very good! Really well structured presentation of the historical context to the sport. When I run fencing sessions for groups like scouts etc. I like to to take along a few real swords, let the kids hold and feel them when during the introductory talk about the sport and it's history, I think this history is important.
Cool video. Not that it should be part of this video, but in the ones that you and @cyrusofchaos make about problems with modern fencing, it's worth pointing out that Right of Way as currently implemented has a perverse effect. In this video, you make the great explanation that it was invented to discourage fencers from putting themselves in harm's way (i.e. no kamikaze attacks). However, nowadays, if I'm fencing foil or sabre, and I'm moving slightly towards the opponent, I *want* them to hit me, because it means I can simply follow their counter-attack with the "finish" of my attack. So in fact, when I'm bouncing or marching, I am actually *reacting* to their initiation in order to win the point, which is exactly the opposite of what Right of Way was meant to promote.
This RUclips channel's content just keeps getting better! It's truly delightful to see that some Olympic fencing practitioners are making an effort to connect our wonderful sport to history, rather than leaving it entirely to HEMA practitioners. Taking an interest in the history of fencing as a sport allows for a better understanding of its logic and, ultimately, deepens one's love for it. However, I'd like to add a small clarification that I would have loved to hear during this fascinating discussion, as it perfectly illustrates the link between sport fencing and real duels. Why is the valid target area so small in foil? Well, back when foil fencing was dominant, duels were fought to the death. Considering this factor, it made sense to focus on the most lethal areas of the body-namely, the torso. In a life-or-death duel, attempting to hit the arms or legs posed too great a risk to one's own survival. Conversely, the emergence of the épée as a dueling weapon coincided with the rise of first-blood duels. In a context where the goal is to land a single successful touch on the opponent, it became much more advisable to keep one's distance and target the most exposed parts of the body. Thank you again for the outstanding quality of your work.
I had always wanted to try Olympic fencing, then late last year I found out about HEMA and found a club near me that studies it. So I found learning some of the history of Olympic Fencing interesting, thank you.
yep i agree there.. no electric fencing in HEMA so you need referees and hand judges... and makes it slow and ponderous as well as you have to hit so the judges see it... ..lol. yes I do both.. been fencing since the 90's and only doing HEMA a few years now
Sure. Why not. HEMA saber is fantastic. Dueling saber is taking off in America and is honestly far more fun than Olympic saber. So far, people fight with intent and honor, and double hits matter!
The reason why the legs are generally not attacked in historical sources is because the angle of attack towards the legs leaves you with a shorter reach meaning that you are vulnerable to an opponent stepping back and attacking high with superior reach. Might be that the rule not to attack the legs comes from a similar place as right of way with encouraging good dueling behavior
My son took sabre for 3 years with my old coach. Joined the Marines and got sent to Okinowa, where he found a HEMA club. Tried it out and beat everyone, despite the weapon weight difference. I asked him about that and he responded that the HEMA guys know little to nothing about footwork and feints.
Tbh the HEMA movements in Japan is close to non existent because Japanese swordsmanship is much more dominant. You can clearly find athletes compete at very high level in Europe and America regions, that you simply can't say they "know nothing"
@@jasongultjaeff9397we have sport fencers who realized the sport is broken and needs to go back to the martially valid zone. That's a good thing, not an ironic thing The techniques and tactics that sport fencers use are mostly historical based, while the rules and the competition do not.
Really enjoyed this video, like it was a pretty good breakdown of the history of fencing. I do think it ignored the degree to which fencing has always been practised as a sport and a form of leisure, like the whole preparing for the duel thing often feels like an excuse that gentlemen would use so they could do a sport they enjoyed. And fencing was practised by middle and working class people in periods where they would be tried for duelling (duelling was only functionally legal for aristocrats) since most fencing masters were middle class professionals.
Wow! A non fencer, I'd always thought of epee as the weapon that clearly had the most combat-sport legitimacy. Just poke each other with swords, none of these silly rules and restrictions. Now I see that, quite the opposite, these restrictions were efforts to design foil and sport sabre so as to be better practical drills for real combat. With no masks, foil did need to make the face off bounds or else practice would be too dangerous to pursue vigorously. And the below-the-belt restriction for sabre, like the right of way rules, tried to mimic the cautions of real-life combat conditions to keep the sport relevant as a practical martial art. If you would not move in a certain way when your life is on the line, don't make it a legitimate way to score a point! Epee's approach vs. the older weapons' is certainly an interesting thing to think about. These lessons have given me food for thought in my longstanding puzzle over another martial art family--if submission and incapacitation are the win conditions in real life combat (and are held to in many striking arts like boxing and Muay Thai), why have all historical forms of grappling used the pin at most (in most historical wrestling sports, actually the takedown) as a win condition, with BJJ the first to permit fighting on your back? The real-life disadvantages of this position, as seen even in MMA, and the domination of BJJ by butt scooters, may hold some of the answer. I should probably study some of the debates HEMA is having; it's probably a good lab run for contemplation of historical and philosophical questions in martial arts. It is interesting how much the Olympic movement, and its effort to promote "family-friendly" rulesets for sports, affected martial arts. In the case of wrestling it removed the submission aspect of catch wrestling to create modern freestyle and influence modern folkstyle, actually inadvertently making the sport better and tougher in practice. Fencing may have divorced itself from combat drill so much at this point (it is clearly far less currently relevant than either unarmed or firearm martial arts, or even more the more practical knife or stick fighting practices) that it doesn't even think of itself as a martial art or combat sport; but determining how to deal with developments like those mentioned in the end of this video and in those like the "fencing is broken" video will ideally require some contemplation of fencing's relation to real life combat and what that should be. I assume central european mensur was a deliberate omission here. It has some survival to this day. Its very different approach to sword combat sportification is certainly an insightful thing to think about.
Great video! As a fencer who does both HEMA and MOF, I want to say that MOF’s rule isn’t perfect, but it still reflects some aspects of a real duel. For example, when you have a person who does HEMA long enough and not being afraid of the pain, you will get a “doubler” who despises every attack you through at him and makes a counterattack any time you get close enough to make your own attack. At that point you would really hope the person knew his first priority is to stay alive instead of just hitting the other person. Then you hope there is a rule to punish such a person, which would translate into the concept of priority. It all feels like re-inventing the wheel…
@ True, but if my opponent is a much better fencer than me and I still manage to double him out, does that mean I am considered at least equal to him? It's not that hard to make a double with a cutting weapon especially when there's a long window to make an afterblow.
This one's for all of those who insist in a HEMA vs Modern Olympic Fencing (MOF). We have more things in common than what some folks would like to admit. Both use weapons (chiefly swords) for our sport; both of us are sportified (yes, HEMAists, we are sportified, go cry your mum); both need excellent footwork and swordwork. I'm done trying to antagonize with MOF, and I hope more people realize this.
i have always explained to people about why sabre is only above the waist that it originated on horseback.. you didn;t want to kill the horse as it was worth money - you wanted the kill the guy and take his horse..lol
Despite the social contexts of each, many people will look at fencing and then hema, and automatically gravitate toward hema because a longsword would win over an epee. I can't help but wonder how much of the issues could be solved with heavier weapons
I don’t think people would gravitate more to longsword because it would beat epee. I think, if they have the luxury of the choice, they might gravitate to it because it’s way cooler and medieval. In practice most kids will have better access to sport fencing and there’s no way mama will let her little boy get hurt. 😂
@@Csori must add that I tried "historical" Rapier...I didn't take to it so much. Due to my physicsal build. I found it heavier than the epee. Plus there is a difference in training and movement but, I don't mind , and wouldn't criticise either way. I would advocate anyone picking up a sword as long as the person is taught to weild , the way it is supposed to be..
@@MsWageSlavein my opinion, heavy mid renaissance rapier is peak fencing, because you can't undo your mistakes and flailing around easily like later smallsword and epee. Every movements have to be calculated with superior positions in the bind
I find it really interesting that you compare fencing to sports like badminton when there are plenty of sports that started as training for or simulations of combat. Like wrestling has been a staple in training for combat for all of human history and is still considered one of the most practical martial arts today, and MMA started as a means to simulate an unarmed duel. Maybe they would be a more interesting comparison for fencing?
i started fencing when sabre was entirely non electric.. they tried to do something like this.. but couldn't make it work... then they tried the sensor thing so you had to be moving your hand so the sabre worked (incidental hits woudln't register) but this too was just complicatyed .. as in competitions you woudl get sensor provided by the comp. to keep it fair but some sensors were soft and some hard 9as to how hard you had to hit) and that made it almost random and not so much on skill as one guy woudl need to hardly hit while the other woudl have to whack hard.. it was interesting challenge...
@@albertbresca8904 This is something we didnt get to in the video but within the sport's rules there was a small bit up until not too long ago that said hits can be given with the edge, back edge, and point and that brushes or hits with flat do not count.
Couldn't they just coat the blunt part of the back edge and the flats in a form of non-conductive material so that it wouldn't register against the lame'?
@@IaMaPh1991 any parries or scrapes would likely make cuts in these... and the blades are so thin these days - mind you that woudl be interesting... if you really wanted to do this (or try) you could put tape on the back half of the blade...
@ i remembering fencing and refereeing in the days before electric sabre.. and hand judging.. if the blade hit with the flat or the back of the blade it wasn't a hit.. that was so difficult to see and judge...
It all comes down to if you think of "fencing" as a sport, or a form of genuine Martial/Military training meant to kill real people in real life. The goal you are pursuing, will then entirely dictate your tactics and techniques. Same in "Martial Arts" today. Most are just glorified "sports" and forms of "tag", but a few others, like (kick)Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, MMA can/are absolutely deadly and not for the "weekend warrior" or amateur.
Epee was the grandfather to the HEMA mentality today. Maybe sabre will get the epee treatment someday. Edit: would starting at say 15 points and losing points if hit or simultaneous hits occur have a psychological impact on deterring doubles? This may instill a sense of loss for sloppy play instead of gain. Maybe a cool experiment.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112here is our sabre house rules for when there aren't any refs. Each player starts at 5 points. A single touch earns a point for the attacker and loses a point for the defender that was hit. a simultaneous attack loses each a point. First to 0 loses. A parry repost gains priority over any simultaneous hits and the fencer that caused such a simultaneous hit after being parried loses 1 point while the fencer who properly executed the parry repost earns 1 point.
@@CreationGrid the issue with a ruleset like that in a tournament context (assuming I’ve understood your explanation correctly) is that it’s a race to the bottom. It is an inherent proprerty of sport swordplay that it’s easier to go for double hits than clean hits. Unless the rules change the situation somehow, the fencer trying to score clean hits is at a strategic disadvantage. If you deduct points for a double hit, it rewards the losing fencer for aiming to double hit to erode their opponent’s lead. To be fair, the reverse is also true. When double hits count up, the fencer in the lead is rewarded for aiming for double hits, but then at least it’s an advantage earned through taking an early lead rather than a strategic handicap imposed on the fencer performing better.
The early history portion of the video is, unfortunately, missing a ton of context and relevant information. Fencing as a sport predates foils, smallswords, and even the rapier. Fencing as a sport even had codified rules prior to any of those weapons being prevalent. As an example, we have historical longsword rules maintained in city archives, still on their original paper. There's an absolute trove of history completely missing in this video. I'd suggest getting ahold of a HEMA content creator with a more extensive working knowledge of relevant information from the late middle ages to the early modern period (1300-1800). Matt Easton of Schola Gladitoria would be an excellent choice, if he's up for it. He does collabs with other creators.
I think that their point is that the current Olympic sports comes from that foil sportification lineage which I don’t think have any roots in medieval longsword fencing. Interesting to know about it though as I suspect they came up with very similar rules.
@BetterExplanation the fencing traditions that they're saying started with rapier, smallswords, and foils arose from earlier traditions that included longswords. One easy example is Joachim Meyer wrote a fencing book in 1570 that includes both longsword and rappier. Rapiers transitioned towards smallswords over time, which is accurate. That said, fencing styles have always adapted to maximize the weapons' properties being used, but the later systems almost always have a direct connection to the systems they modify for their current time and material conditions. Completely new styles rarely materialize with no backing from something before it. The fencing in the early 20th century is more connected to those earlier systems than the fencing of today, however. That is true, but the current sportive systems still usually arise from what already exists.
@@blossfechter At some point, they all come from Neanderthals clubbing each other, you gotta say the history starts somewhere. Given how a lot of these lunge recover systems, particularly the French, Italian, and Hungarian, don’t have a connected longsword or arming sword tradition, it’s not *too* far fetched to say they started with the rapier and smallsword.
Afterblow rules are mostly just extending the lock out time for scoring. It creates more situations where both fencers have valid touches, rather than decreasing them, like a proper RoW system would. In most implementations, getting hit with an afterblow just limits the points gained by the first attacker. Clean fencing is incentives for the attacker by awarding more points for a clean exchange, while making intentionally setting up an afterblow a losing strategy in the vast majority of situations.
Like the concept, wish we picked a better speaker on the subject but it’s a good enough overview. Cool video, really enjoy the channel. I’m someone who’s a fencer that does it all (HEMA, Classical, and Modern foil and epee mostly)
Mensur fighters used live blades and wore far less facial protection, and they did it simply as a matter of honor, no gold medals to be had at all. Surely, "elite Olympic athletes" can do as well as a bunch of bored college kids.....surely.
They’ll probably be some form of Olympic longsword in 10-20 years, if a standardized ruleset gets properly developed and trained for. The bigger issue is the injury rate. As is, HEMA would burn through its pool of potential athletes if trained at scale. It’s not really safe to train kids right now, which kind of makes it a dead end. It’s probable with proper research and equipment regulation that could be alleviated, but a big part of what makes Olympic fencing safe is the lightweight disposable weapons that HEMAists don’t tend to like the sporty effects of.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 it is absolutely safe to train responsible and respectful kids in longsword. With tools like the Sigi Light Longsword trainer (feder), we have a safe, approachable steel weapon that can serve all the necessary training functions for longsword fencing with minimal risk of injury. The next generation of HEMA fighters will have started in grade school.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 HEMA is actually pretty safe. For kids you can always use light plastic or foam weapons, and with all the protective gear we wear it's quite rare to actually injure in a fight.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112the thing is, avoiding a standardized ruleset is what HEMA folks want. Different ruleset each region, you can't cheese or exploit the rules to some degree.
- It’s generally considered ungentlemanly to hit someone below the waist because it can lead to serious injuries and pain but there were plenty of tournaments that allowed hits below the wait. In Italy it was predominantly above the waist after a while. During the drafting of the Olympic fencing rules some nations such as Italy must have gotten their own way with the valid target area. Interesting to note that in Italy for example they did have some tournaments where they allowed hits on the top third of a leg. - Not sure I agree with the pants and small blade theory of why the legs aren’t counted. My understanding is that with sabre duels, at least in Italy, they often did not permit hits on the hand or wrist, they would pad those areas out so it wasn’t so easy to get a cut there. Yet they still allowed that part to be hit in tournament rules. - Good job explaining right of way. Also important to note that it’s the act of attacking with the weapon that should matter. That is… going to hit the opponent, your movement direction doesn’t matter. That’s why they used to call attack on preps outside of the 4m box. That’s something very logical and yet some people misunderstood the rules including referees. While I understand referees have to follow the current rule set, it doesn’t make sense that if I’m going forward and my opponent is retreating and he tries to hit me I don’t have to defend myself, I can just mindlessly get hit too. - Point d’arret was badly pronounced. “Pwang dah-ray” is closer to the correct pronunciation - Actually many countries didn’t have sabre as an approved weapon of duals. In France for example I believe you were not obligated to accept a sabre in a duel unless it was between two military men.
Massive thanks to John from @esgrimaxativa5175 for his help on this video!
Massive thanks to you!
One thing I think was missed here and that is the “fechtschule” of the 1500s. The longsword was mostly on its way out as a battlefield weapon, but the history of teaching longsword as a martial and sporting discipline was maintained as an athletic pursuit. We have a culture of fencing as a sporting pursuit that goes back to the old days. We have historical examples of blunt training swords, “federschwert” or feather swords, from the German tradition that were obviously used for training and sporting purposes. Fencing competitions were less than lethal, and pride and recognition were the rewards for fencing well. I think this is what HEMA is trying to revive above all, a tradition of martially valid fencing that is also a sporting pursuit.
Don't forget the Dussack which is kind of like a proto-saber.
Yes. I should have mentioned this. I was always under the impression that the fechtschule tradition eventually died out and no schools teaching longsword today can trace their lineage back to this.
@@esgrimaxativa5175 no you aren’t mistaken. The lineage did die out, but through the historical works, we are trying to revive the traditions and teachings of the old masters.
The longsword was still very much in use on the battlefield even far later, and I;m not even talking about the montante/spadone/slachschwert type big two handed swords. It was just used as a secondary weapon.
Sometimes amongst pikemen and halberdiers, sometimes by crossbowmen and archers for melee combat (albeit it wasn't the most common sidearm for sure).
One of the advantages of longsword was not that it was 'best' suited for any one thing necessarily .For one on one something like a montante or rapier is superior to a longsword on average, and it doesnt necessarily have a huge advantage if any over other one handed swords, for group and formation combat polearms are always better as primaries.
But you could use a longsword alone in two hands in a variety of contexts, you could use it from horseback or while scaling a ladder, or pushing a battering ram, etc.
It was also seen as a 'knightly' weapon so even many who weren't actually knights by any definition would almost use it as a part of a social 'larp' of knightly behavior. Such things are part of the fechtschule culture too and we can see echoes of this in Meyer's work too for example(his work was fairly likely strongly related to fechtschules in various ways, but it was definitely not only for the fechtschule since even his longsword section containts material that would be banned in the fechtschule rulesets we know of).
Also interestingly when one looks at the variety of 'longsword' sources we see there's a far variety of reasons and types of contexts mentioned from sportive to combative, from non lethal to not intentionally but potentially lethal, to lethality being accepted but not desired, all the way to lethality being desired at least in some situations.
Tlustly's work is an interesting read on this topic.
But the children of the sun culture, obviously not only longsword related, is a beatufil and interesting phenomenon I wish more people knew about.
Hopefully @SlicerSabre covers that in some future video.Slicer, if you;re reading this -articles and lectures by Adam Franti, Jean Chandler, Roger Norling, Liam Clark off the top of my head all cover a lot of the relevant material and reference further reading if you're ever interested in digging deeper. If you can;t find any of it tag or message me and I;ll link it all.
Very good video! I love the way in which you are developing the channel! Cheers!
As a newbie HEMA sabre fencer with an interest in the historical connections from modern fencing to the fencing styles studied in HEMA, I loved this video. Would love to see more history content from your channel!
Great video and one that I think is long needed in the Hema vs. Olympic Fencing discussion. I'll definitely use this video when people complain about Olympic Fencing.
Can't wait to watch this tonight after work :) thanks Slicer Sabre
Very, very good! Really well structured presentation of the historical context to the sport. When I run fencing sessions for groups like scouts etc. I like to to take along a few real swords, let the kids hold and feel them when during the introductory talk about the sport and it's history, I think this history is important.
Cool video. Not that it should be part of this video, but in the ones that you and @cyrusofchaos make about problems with modern fencing, it's worth pointing out that Right of Way as currently implemented has a perverse effect. In this video, you make the great explanation that it was invented to discourage fencers from putting themselves in harm's way (i.e. no kamikaze attacks). However, nowadays, if I'm fencing foil or sabre, and I'm moving slightly towards the opponent, I *want* them to hit me, because it means I can simply follow their counter-attack with the "finish" of my attack. So in fact, when I'm bouncing or marching, I am actually *reacting* to their initiation in order to win the point, which is exactly the opposite of what Right of Way was meant to promote.
How's it going Mihail? You are 100% correct and with this 170ms timing along with no calling AIP out of the box and this what we get.
Yeah I agree completely. The long/marching/bouncing/holding attack goes completely against the spirit of how the game is meant to be played.
16:24 Four blind men and a liar. I like that one lol
This RUclips channel's content just keeps getting better! It's truly delightful to see that some Olympic fencing practitioners are making an effort to connect our wonderful sport to history, rather than leaving it entirely to HEMA practitioners. Taking an interest in the history of fencing as a sport allows for a better understanding of its logic and, ultimately, deepens one's love for it.
However, I'd like to add a small clarification that I would have loved to hear during this fascinating discussion, as it perfectly illustrates the link between sport fencing and real duels. Why is the valid target area so small in foil? Well, back when foil fencing was dominant, duels were fought to the death. Considering this factor, it made sense to focus on the most lethal areas of the body-namely, the torso. In a life-or-death duel, attempting to hit the arms or legs posed too great a risk to one's own survival. Conversely, the emergence of the épée as a dueling weapon coincided with the rise of first-blood duels. In a context where the goal is to land a single successful touch on the opponent, it became much more advisable to keep one's distance and target the most exposed parts of the body.
Thank you again for the outstanding quality of your work.
I had always wanted to try Olympic fencing, then late last year I found out about HEMA and found a club near me that studies it.
So I found learning some of the history of Olympic Fencing interesting, thank you.
Another banger 🔥
Interesting video...I am a UK epee fencer...also have done HEMA. My Univeristy degree is history based..I prefer sports fencing.
yep i agree there.. no electric fencing in HEMA so you need referees and hand judges... and makes it slow and ponderous as well as you have to hit so the judges see it... ..lol. yes I do both.. been fencing since the 90's and only doing HEMA a few years now
16:26 What an absolute unit!
With every video that comes out, I'm more and more convinced that this channel is ultimately going to become a hema saber channel. Which is great.
Sure. Why not. HEMA saber is fantastic. Dueling saber is taking off in America and is honestly far more fun than Olympic saber. So far, people fight with intent and honor, and double hits matter!
i do both and hope this stays a MOF ( modern fencing) channel.. HEMA is fun and interesting but
@@albertbresca8904modern saber is a really fun and rich game. I do both, so it's a win win situation for me :)
your videos are so good and educational. thank you
The reason why the legs are generally not attacked in historical sources is because the angle of attack towards the legs leaves you with a shorter reach meaning that you are vulnerable to an opponent stepping back and attacking high with superior reach. Might be that the rule not to attack the legs comes from a similar place as right of way with encouraging good dueling behavior
My son took sabre for 3 years with my old coach. Joined the Marines and got sent to Okinowa, where he found a HEMA club. Tried it out and beat everyone, despite the weapon weight difference. I asked him about that and he responded that the HEMA guys know little to nothing about footwork and feints.
Tbh the HEMA movements in Japan is close to non existent because Japanese swordsmanship is much more dominant. You can clearly find athletes compete at very high level in Europe and America regions, that you simply can't say they "know nothing"
That HEMA club in Okinawa is mostly other Marines who rotate out and don’t pass on or develop skills, I wouldn’t take that cluv as representative
@@jaketheasianguy3307 the best HEMA guys, with the best footwork etc, have sports fencing backgrounds. That's the irony of HEMA.
@@jaketheasianguy3307I do both and my HEMA club teaches no footwork or athleticism
@@jasongultjaeff9397we have sport fencers who realized the sport is broken and needs to go back to the martially valid zone. That's a good thing, not an ironic thing
The techniques and tactics that sport fencers use are mostly historical based, while the rules and the competition do not.
Really enjoyed this video, like it was a pretty good breakdown of the history of fencing. I do think it ignored the degree to which fencing has always been practised as a sport and a form of leisure, like the whole preparing for the duel thing often feels like an excuse that gentlemen would use so they could do a sport they enjoyed. And fencing was practised by middle and working class people in periods where they would be tried for duelling (duelling was only functionally legal for aristocrats) since most fencing masters were middle class professionals.
Great explanation. Thanks.
Fantastic history, thanks!
There's some ROW hema sabre, mainly in Germany and Czechia, it's picking up in popularity for sure
I have been folllowing these movements and it will be quite interesting to see where they go.
Wow! A non fencer, I'd always thought of epee as the weapon that clearly had the most combat-sport legitimacy. Just poke each other with swords, none of these silly rules and restrictions. Now I see that, quite the opposite, these restrictions were efforts to design foil and sport sabre so as to be better practical drills for real combat. With no masks, foil did need to make the face off bounds or else practice would be too dangerous to pursue vigorously. And the below-the-belt restriction for sabre, like the right of way rules, tried to mimic the cautions of real-life combat conditions to keep the sport relevant as a practical martial art. If you would not move in a certain way when your life is on the line, don't make it a legitimate way to score a point! Epee's approach vs. the older weapons' is certainly an interesting thing to think about.
These lessons have given me food for thought in my longstanding puzzle over another martial art family--if submission and incapacitation are the win conditions in real life combat (and are held to in many striking arts like boxing and Muay Thai), why have all historical forms of grappling used the pin at most (in most historical wrestling sports, actually the takedown) as a win condition, with BJJ the first to permit fighting on your back? The real-life disadvantages of this position, as seen even in MMA, and the domination of BJJ by butt scooters, may hold some of the answer. I should probably study some of the debates HEMA is having; it's probably a good lab run for contemplation of historical and philosophical questions in martial arts.
It is interesting how much the Olympic movement, and its effort to promote "family-friendly" rulesets for sports, affected martial arts. In the case of wrestling it removed the submission aspect of catch wrestling to create modern freestyle and influence modern folkstyle, actually inadvertently making the sport better and tougher in practice. Fencing may have divorced itself from combat drill so much at this point (it is clearly far less currently relevant than either unarmed or firearm martial arts, or even more the more practical knife or stick fighting practices) that it doesn't even think of itself as a martial art or combat sport; but determining how to deal with developments like those mentioned in the end of this video and in those like the "fencing is broken" video will ideally require some contemplation of fencing's relation to real life combat and what that should be.
I assume central european mensur was a deliberate omission here. It has some survival to this day. Its very different approach to sword combat sportification is certainly an insightful thing to think about.
Great video! As a fencer who does both HEMA and MOF, I want to say that MOF’s rule isn’t perfect, but it still reflects some aspects of a real duel. For example, when you have a person who does HEMA long enough and not being afraid of the pain, you will get a “doubler” who despises every attack you through at him and makes a counterattack any time you get close enough to make your own attack. At that point you would really hope the person knew his first priority is to stay alive instead of just hitting the other person. Then you hope there is a rule to punish such a person, which would translate into the concept of priority. It all feels like re-inventing the wheel…
Well in some HEMA tournaments, more than 3 doubles would lead to both fighters losing, hence punishing such behavior.
@@eugenekim9961or a Hail Mary option for a fencer to take a stronger opponent down with him
@ True, but if my opponent is a much better fencer than me and I still manage to double him out, does that mean I am considered at least equal to him? It's not that hard to make a double with a cutting weapon especially when there's a long window to make an afterblow.
Thank you for the interesting review
This one's for all of those who insist in a HEMA vs Modern Olympic Fencing (MOF). We have more things in common than what some folks would like to admit. Both use weapons (chiefly swords) for our sport; both of us are sportified (yes, HEMAists, we are sportified, go cry your mum); both need excellent footwork and swordwork. I'm done trying to antagonize with MOF, and I hope more people realize this.
i have always explained to people about why sabre is only above the waist that it originated on horseback.. you didn;t want to kill the horse as it was worth money - you wanted the kill the guy and take his horse..lol
Despite the social contexts of each, many people will look at fencing and then hema, and automatically gravitate toward hema because a longsword would win over an epee. I can't help but wonder how much of the issues could be solved with heavier weapons
Many people huh
I don’t think people would gravitate more to longsword because it would beat epee. I think, if they have the luxury of the choice, they might gravitate to it because it’s way cooler and medieval. In practice most kids will have better access to sport fencing and there’s no way mama will let her little boy get hurt. 😂
People who say fencing is disconnected from its roots are always never fencers
100% agree with you.
I am UK fencer ❤❤ have done sports and HEMA...prefer sports...very aware of the history.
True. But if they are suspect uninformed, then we are suspect biased.
@@Csori must add that I tried "historical" Rapier...I didn't take to it so much. Due to my physicsal build. I found it heavier than the epee.
Plus there is a difference in training and movement but, I don't mind , and wouldn't criticise either way. I would advocate anyone picking up a sword as long as the person is taught to weild , the way it is supposed to be..
@@MsWageSlavein my opinion, heavy mid renaissance rapier is peak fencing, because you can't undo your mistakes and flailing around easily like later smallsword and epee. Every movements have to be calculated with superior positions in the bind
I find it really interesting that you compare fencing to sports like badminton when there are plenty of sports that started as training for or simulations of combat. Like wrestling has been a staple in training for combat for all of human history and is still considered one of the most practical martial arts today, and MMA started as a means to simulate an unarmed duel. Maybe they would be a more interesting comparison for fencing?
very interesting 🌈
it would be dope if only the sharp side of the sabre lit up the scoring machine tho
i started fencing when sabre was entirely non electric.. they tried to do something like this.. but couldn't make it work... then they tried the sensor thing so you had to be moving your hand so the sabre worked (incidental hits woudln't register) but this too was just complicatyed .. as in competitions you woudl get sensor provided by the comp. to keep it fair but some sensors were soft and some hard 9as to how hard you had to hit) and that made it almost random and not so much on skill as one guy woudl need to hardly hit while the other woudl have to whack hard.. it was interesting challenge...
@@albertbresca8904 This is something we didnt get to in the video but within the sport's rules there was a small bit up until not too long ago that said hits can be given with the edge, back edge, and point and that brushes or hits with flat do not count.
Couldn't they just coat the blunt part of the back edge and the flats in a form of non-conductive material so that it wouldn't register against the lame'?
@@IaMaPh1991 any parries or scrapes would likely make cuts in these... and the blades are so thin these days - mind you that woudl be interesting...
if you really wanted to do this (or try) you could put tape on the back half of the blade...
@ i remembering fencing and refereeing in the days before electric sabre.. and hand judging..
if the blade hit with the flat or the back of the blade it wasn't a hit.. that was so difficult to see and judge...
It all comes down to if you think of "fencing" as a sport, or a form of genuine Martial/Military training meant to kill real people in real life. The goal you are pursuing, will then entirely dictate your tactics and techniques. Same in "Martial Arts" today. Most are just glorified "sports" and forms of "tag", but a few others, like (kick)Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, MMA can/are absolutely deadly and not for the "weekend warrior" or amateur.
Epee was the grandfather to the HEMA mentality today. Maybe sabre will get the epee treatment someday.
Edit: would starting at say 15 points and losing points if hit or simultaneous hits occur have a psychological impact on deterring doubles? This may instill a sense of loss for sloppy play instead of gain. Maybe a cool experiment.
Such experiments with loss aversion are done in HEMA competitions and have basically no effect after someone gets used to it.
@@Angelarskithank you for your insight. I suppose if it's a game winners gonna find ways to make rules work for them.
That wouldn’t work once people began training/coaching for those rules at scale.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112here is our sabre house rules for when there aren't any refs.
Each player starts at 5 points. A single touch earns a point for the attacker and loses a point for the defender that was hit. a simultaneous attack loses each a point. First to 0 loses. A parry repost gains priority over any simultaneous hits and the fencer that caused such a simultaneous hit after being parried loses 1 point while the fencer who properly executed the parry repost earns 1 point.
@@CreationGrid the issue with a ruleset like that in a tournament context (assuming I’ve understood your explanation correctly) is that it’s a race to the bottom.
It is an inherent proprerty of sport swordplay that it’s easier to go for double hits than clean hits. Unless the rules change the situation somehow, the fencer trying to score clean hits is at a strategic disadvantage.
If you deduct points for a double hit, it rewards the losing fencer for aiming to double hit to erode their opponent’s lead.
To be fair, the reverse is also true. When double hits count up, the fencer in the lead is rewarded for aiming for double hits, but then at least it’s an advantage earned through taking an early lead rather than a strategic handicap imposed on the fencer performing better.
The flick is extremely lame
It shouldn’t be allowed, it’s not in the spirit of fencing.
The early history portion of the video is, unfortunately, missing a ton of context and relevant information. Fencing as a sport predates foils, smallswords, and even the rapier. Fencing as a sport even had codified rules prior to any of those weapons being prevalent. As an example, we have historical longsword rules maintained in city archives, still on their original paper.
There's an absolute trove of history completely missing in this video. I'd suggest getting ahold of a HEMA content creator with a more extensive working knowledge of relevant information from the late middle ages to the early modern period (1300-1800). Matt Easton of Schola Gladitoria would be an excellent choice, if he's up for it. He does collabs with other creators.
I think that their point is that the current Olympic sports comes from that foil sportification lineage which I don’t think have any roots in medieval longsword fencing. Interesting to know about it though as I suspect they came up with very similar rules.
@BetterExplanation the fencing traditions that they're saying started with rapier, smallswords, and foils arose from earlier traditions that included longswords. One easy example is Joachim Meyer wrote a fencing book in 1570 that includes both longsword and rappier. Rapiers transitioned towards smallswords over time, which is accurate. That said, fencing styles have always adapted to maximize the weapons' properties being used, but the later systems almost always have a direct connection to the systems they modify for their current time and material conditions. Completely new styles rarely materialize with no backing from something before it.
The fencing in the early 20th century is more connected to those earlier systems than the fencing of today, however. That is true, but the current sportive systems still usually arise from what already exists.
@@blossfechter
At some point, they all come from Neanderthals clubbing each other, you gotta say the history starts somewhere. Given how a lot of these lunge recover systems, particularly the French, Italian, and Hungarian, don’t have a connected longsword or arming sword tradition, it’s not *too* far fetched to say they started with the rapier and smallsword.
HEMA seems to grant RoW to the "defender" with their approach to afterblows.
Afterblow rules are mostly just extending the lock out time for scoring. It creates more situations where both fencers have valid touches, rather than decreasing them, like a proper RoW system would.
In most implementations, getting hit with an afterblow just limits the points gained by the first attacker. Clean fencing is incentives for the attacker by awarding more points for a clean exchange, while making intentionally setting up an afterblow a losing strategy in the vast majority of situations.
Like the concept, wish we picked a better speaker on the subject but it’s a good enough overview. Cool video, really enjoy the channel. I’m someone who’s a fencer that does it all (HEMA, Classical, and Modern foil and epee mostly)
Calling longswords "heavy" 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Mensur fighters used live blades and wore far less facial protection, and they did it simply as a matter of honor, no gold medals to be had at all. Surely, "elite Olympic athletes" can do as well as a bunch of bored college kids.....surely.
Yes - but they are bit Third Reichy
@@iainmcclure416 ouch... lol... the facial scars thing ant too good either...
In most countries they would consider people into that having serious mental illness. In germany they consider them future world leaders 😂
HEMA and Armored MMA are very easy to watch, and IMO should be included in Olympic
They’ll probably be some form of Olympic longsword in 10-20 years, if a standardized ruleset gets properly developed and trained for.
The bigger issue is the injury rate. As is, HEMA would burn through its pool of potential athletes if trained at scale. It’s not really safe to train kids right now, which kind of makes it a dead end.
It’s probable with proper research and equipment regulation that could be alleviated, but a big part of what makes Olympic fencing safe is the lightweight disposable weapons that HEMAists don’t tend to like the sporty effects of.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 it is absolutely safe to train responsible and respectful kids in longsword. With tools like the Sigi Light Longsword trainer (feder), we have a safe, approachable steel weapon that can serve all the necessary training functions for longsword fencing with minimal risk of injury. The next generation of HEMA fighters will have started in grade school.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 HEMA is actually pretty safe. For kids you can always use light plastic or foam weapons, and with all the protective gear we wear it's quite rare to actually injure in a fight.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112the thing is, avoiding a standardized ruleset is what HEMA folks want. Different ruleset each region, you can't cheese or exploit the rules to some degree.
Nah, look at Judo and Taekwondo and what the Olympics have done with them.
- It’s generally considered ungentlemanly to hit someone below the waist because it can lead to serious injuries and pain but there were plenty of tournaments that allowed hits below the wait. In Italy it was predominantly above the waist after a while. During the drafting of the Olympic fencing rules some nations such as Italy must have gotten their own way with the valid target area. Interesting to note that in Italy for example they did have some tournaments where they allowed hits on the top third of a leg. - Not sure I agree with the pants and small blade theory of why the legs aren’t counted. My understanding is that with sabre duels, at least in Italy, they often did not permit hits on the hand or wrist, they would pad those areas out so it wasn’t so easy to get a cut there. Yet they still allowed that part to be hit in tournament rules.
- Good job explaining right of way. Also important to note that it’s the act of attacking with the weapon that should matter. That is… going to hit the opponent, your movement direction doesn’t matter. That’s why they used to call attack on preps outside of the 4m box. That’s something very logical and yet some people misunderstood the rules including referees. While I understand referees have to follow the current rule set, it doesn’t make sense that if I’m going forward and my opponent is retreating and he tries to hit me I don’t have to defend myself, I can just mindlessly get hit too.
- Point d’arret was badly pronounced. “Pwang dah-ray” is closer to the correct pronunciation
- Actually many countries didn’t have sabre as an approved weapon of duals. In France for example I believe you were not obligated to accept a sabre in a duel unless it was between two military men.