My favorite machine! They were so far ahead of their time. Jobs intentionally hobbled them to 2 MHz so they wouldn't blow out the Macintosh, but they are perfectly capable of running at 14mhz+. Snag a transwarp GS if you can, to really open it up. My only gripe is that the good compiler toolkitbwith all the hardware library interface and such is still commercial software. >_< orca c is onlyblike $20, but if it were free I think we'd see a lot more cool retro software for the iigs.
My friend one town over had one of these when I still had my C64. The difference was eye-opening. I'd love to find a transwarp but the prices are so steep!
@@retrobitstv reactivemicro is taking preorders for a $450 twgs clone. It sounds like it will be smaller and faster than the original, and run cooler. It's been in preorder status for forever, though, and Henri hasn't responded to my email asking about its status. :(
The ZipGS or TranswarpGS can get it to 14mhz+ but it's not a simple fix... those accelerator cards are half of the computer built into a new daughterboard... I have several friends in engineering that have taken apart a lot of Apple IIgs systems... there are a lot of practical limitations for the 2.6(?) clock that aren't part of a plan by Jobs to 'hobble' it.
@Jon Rowlison - Granted it wasn't as trivial as swapping in a faster 65C816 CPU back in the day, but the engineering required at Apple R&D to get the IIGS running natively at 7-10 MHz in the 1980's wasn't THAT difficult. From from it. Sadly, it became quite clear Apple management wanted the IIGS locked down at the lower speed--for political reasons, not technical or cost-related ones. At the very least, they could have at least done a "quick and dirty" speed fix, much in the same vein done with the Apple IIc Plus. License the ZipGS ASIC design from Zip Technologies/REMcorp, and integrate it onto the main board with a 65C816-14 and some SRAM. The nice thing with the Zip design is it's an all-in-one chip. They wouldn't even give the machine a simple stereo-out jack, even though stereo sound was built-in the Ensoniq chip! Incidentally, the IIGS had graphics comparable to the Amiga, with a 12-bit palette (4,096 colors) and up to 256 colors per screen (16 per scanline), without trickery or CPU load, which even exceeds the Amiga's 32 colors per screen.
Jobs was out by the time the IIgs entered development; I can't pretend to know what the reasoning would have been for throttling the processor but I'm sure it had more to do with maintaining legacy Apple II compatibility than anything else. One big knock on the IIgs was the Ensoniq sound chip which got them into a ton of trouble with Apple Corps and a Jobs-era agreement that Apple Computer wouldn't cross over into music production.
I still have my IIGS that I got in late 1986. It served me very well from middle school through my first year of college. It was the last computer where I felt that I truly understood how everything worked “under the hood.” It is a great platform for programming with built-in AppleSoft BASIC and mini-Assembler at one end and support for Pascal and C to leverage the IIGS toolbox at the other. I enjoyed watching you fix yours up and hope you post more videos as you get a chance to use it.
I had something similar with the video on mine, but discovered it was a fault in the monitor as it started doing similar things to other systems too. Mine affected the bottom third of the monitor though, might be related but it's hard to say. Another superb video on an excellent system. Makes you wonder how different the world might have been if the IIGS had beaten out the Macintosh as the lead Apple product. Again, great video, and rock on!
Thanks, glad you liked it! Yea, if the IIgs had the full weight of Apple behind it and ran at a higher clock speed out of the box I bet we would have seen a ton more developer support for it :(
Great video and great memories. I was an Apple engineer on GS/OS back in 1986. GS in Apple IIGS was for Gumby Software according to our development team as that which was our internal team name 🙂
Lucky you you'v got machine like Apple 2gs, I'm looking for one, it's lovely machine ... you'v done great job Sir.Thanks v much for posting the video well-done.
Surprised to see the PSU inspection AFTER you've powered it on several times :-) but nice overview. I hate this term, but the IIgs definitely had a lot of hidden gems, so run as much IIgs-only software on it as you can.
@@retrobitstv Sure, there are some apple iigs demoscene demos to start. Also, Deluxe Music Construction Set has some amazing demo tunes. For games, Bard's Tale and Tass Times in Tonetown have typical but nice uses of music and 16-color graphics. And Becky Heineman ported Out Of This World to it so that's fun.
Sweet thanks, I'll look into those! Next project is to try getting software directly onto the HDD using the WiFi modem instead of the ADTPro transfer method I've been using that requires using floppies.
@@retrobitstv - I'd recommend checking out Zany Golf, The Immortal, Task Force, Rastan, Arkanoid I and II, DuelTris, Thexder, Spacefox, KABOOM, Wolfenstein 3D, Out of This World. Any demos made by FTA or Ninjaforce, particularly MegaDemo and Kernkompetenz from the latter group (you can watch a capture of it on my channel). Music software like synthLAB, Music Construction Set and Diversi-Tune are quite nice (also on my channel). It actually kept up quite well with the Amiga, the problem was it had a lack of software and support, and what software it did get often under utilized its capabilities. Sound-wise it blew the Amiga away, compare the soundtrack for Rocket Ranger on both machines for example, or Zany Golf especially.
The customers who made Apple big, wanted this machine. But Jobs thought otherwise, so the //gs came too late, wasn't marketed and crippled down. Jobs prefered the closed macintosh, that he could control. IBM came with the IBM PC and started dominating the market, even though there were lots of PC clones. Jobs never understood the market advantage of an open system. Who would have bought an Android smartphone, if Android would be closed as IOS?!
Huh, I've never had to recap any of my apple 2s. The macs are another story, but I've never had any failures on the big through hole caps on the apple 2s.
How you conected the IIgs to the 1084 ? Rgb or just composite ? That monitor fits so good on the IIgs, wonder if it´s so heavy for it. Case for me looks a bit weak for hold a heavy crt.
The IIgs is connected to the 1084 via RGB with a custom cable. I was able to source new pigtails for both the Apple and the 1084 side and just wired them together. It works really well! My IIgs does put out some funky sync signals that other monitors don't seem to handle as well. I've been meaning to dig into that and see if I can come up with a workaround. I'm not super worried that the 1084 is too heavy; people used to stack their power savers, disk drives, and monitors on the IIgs back in the day!
The IIGS output analog RGB at 15.75 kHz, so most displays similar to the 1084 should be compatible. I've been hoping to one day build an adapter cable to connect up my Amiga 1080 monitor and Atari SC1224 (not sure where I'd find the funky connector the Atari uses though, and not hacking off the end!). I've even used VGA monitors that sync down to NTSC frequency, like my NEC MultiSync 3D or Sony CPD-1302. All they require is a simple Apple->VGA adapter attached to the cable.
I wish there was a graphics card that would allow you to plug in a standard svga monitor. I mirrored a video about a prototype for what likely would have been the gs+. The theoretical specs (integrated super drive, 40mb hard drive, ram slots, upping the stock clock speed) would have made it a compelling option to a certainty audience in my eyes. Hell I would have wanted younger me to have one.
I haven't tried, but a RetroTink or OSSC would probably fit the bill for upscaling to VGA. Yea it's a shame there weren't further/more powerful IIgs models, it's a great platform, just needed more oomph.
@Andrew Singleton - Actually there is the Second Sight card for the IIGS, released in 1995 by Sequential Systems. It lets you use a standard VGA monitor, but unfortunately it had some quirks, mainly due to the firmware not quite completed. I have one but they're fairly rare to find these days. If you can find a VGA monitor that syncs down to 15 kHz, you can use that directly with the IIGS (e.g. NEC MultiSync 3D, Sony CPD-1302). Personally I prefer the AppleColor RGB, and those manufactured between 1986-1989 because of the quality of the tube. I think some Atari ST's SC1224 monitor used that same tube, though you'd need to wire a proper cable.
Thanks for the heads-up! The brush attachment isn't specifically ESD safe, but it is genuine horsehair which I'm lead to believe is safer to use than e.g. nylon. I'll keep my eyes open for a proper attachment :)
I've never tried that but I've seen it done. Recently I've found that there are 3d printed models for all kinds of IIgs blanking plates so I am going to run off a bunch of them, including one that'll fit my USB port!
@@retrobitstv the mix hardens like a rock but it can be brittle, depending on the thickness. For restoring pillars and add strength epoxy works very well too. 3D printed parts lack smoothness imho, unless one wants to go through extra processes to smooth and polish the parts.
GREAT video! Thanks! One question: Where did you get the cable to hook the IIgs up to the Commodore monitor? If you soldered it yourself do you know of any good sources of info on how to go about it? I'm looking to get a hold of an Apple IIgs and seeing as how those monitors tend to die during shipping I'll be using my trusty 1084 with it, but I can't seem to find an appropriate cable.
Thanks! I made the cable myself. Here's the the 1084 connector: www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tensility-international-corp/10-00436/2625286 and the pinout for Analog RGB: gona.mactar.hu/Commodore/monitor/Commodore_1084_pinout_DIN-rotated_large.png The IIgs end uses a DB15 connector with the following pinout: www.apple2faq.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Apple_IIgs_RGB_pin_outs.jpg Connect R, G, and B accordingly. I tied the grounds together, and connected the Apple's csync to the 1084's hsync pin. There are also VGA and SCART adapters you can buy for the IIgs directly.
@@retrobitstv wow, thanks! This us super helpful. I'm very excited to get my first taste of AMERICAN computer history. Those Apple II machines are very uncommon here, and I've not met anyone who grew up in the 80s or 90s who grew up with an Apple machine. Still so many great american developers started on the Apple II, and so many historically sognificant games were made on it. Seems strange to be a vintage computer enthisiast and NOT have some sort of Apple II in my collection :)
@@nevilovermann797 The Apple II and later IIgs were super common here as we had them in our schools. The machines we didn't have over here were the BBCs, Sinclairs, Amstrads, MSX, etc. I have a lot of catching up to do with all of these systems :) Enjoy the IIgs though, it's the best of both worlds as there's a huge library of Apple II software and some pretty great IIgs specific stuff as well!
@@retrobitstv Do you think there could be issues since the machine is NTSC and my monitors are PAL? Will the RGB signal work regardless? I've never owned an NTSC-machine before so I really have no idea about the differences. The machine is on it's way to me now and I'm going to order a new PSU, which should support my voltages, but apart from that I have no idea what to expect from an NTSC machine in terms of difficulties. I'm sorry to lean on you here, but any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated :)
@@nevilovermann797 You likely won't be able to use the IIgs composite output since I believe that's NTSC-only. You should be fine using RGB, as there is no NTSC/PAL encoding to worry about. My 1084 can sync fine with both 50 and 60hz RGB sources, so I assume yours will too. And even better, you should be able to switch the machine to 50hz mode by hitting closed apple-ctrl-esc instead of the usual open apple-ctrl-esc used to enter the setup menu. Good luck and enjoy the machine!
It was available outside the US and all models (well maybe not ROM0?) can output 50Hz RGB. To select the video standard, hold down the closed apple/option key when turning on the machine and a menu will pop up. Hit 3 to select 50Hz. All models are hardwired for NTSC-only on the composite output. No problem if you're using a SCART cable though. There's a hardware mod you can make to get PAL color on the composite port too.
The IIgs was very good back in the day, but today it is *totally* *outgunned* by the cheapest Windows PC. It's like comparing a Ford Pinto to a modern Tesla. Sorry, but that's the truth. And I owned the IIgs Woz Edition as a kid.
@@kentucker3259 Like what? Slow super low-res games? Or some primitive spreadsheet with a 64k memory limitation? Or maybe using a 9600 baud modem to call BBS lines? That's like a snail in a world of Ferraris.
My favorite machine! They were so far ahead of their time. Jobs intentionally hobbled them to 2 MHz so they wouldn't blow out the Macintosh, but they are perfectly capable of running at 14mhz+. Snag a transwarp GS if you can, to really open it up.
My only gripe is that the good compiler toolkitbwith all the hardware library interface and such is still commercial software. >_< orca c is onlyblike $20, but if it were free I think we'd see a lot more cool retro software for the iigs.
My friend one town over had one of these when I still had my C64. The difference was eye-opening. I'd love to find a transwarp but the prices are so steep!
@@retrobitstv reactivemicro is taking preorders for a $450 twgs clone. It sounds like it will be smaller and faster than the original, and run cooler. It's been in preorder status for forever, though, and Henri hasn't responded to my email asking about its status. :(
The ZipGS or TranswarpGS can get it to 14mhz+ but it's not a simple fix... those accelerator cards are half of the computer built into a new daughterboard... I have several friends in engineering that have taken apart a lot of Apple IIgs systems... there are a lot of practical limitations for the 2.6(?) clock that aren't part of a plan by Jobs to 'hobble' it.
@Jon Rowlison - Granted it wasn't as trivial as swapping in a faster 65C816 CPU back in the day, but the engineering required at Apple R&D to get the IIGS running natively at 7-10 MHz in the 1980's wasn't THAT difficult. From from it. Sadly, it became quite clear Apple management wanted the IIGS locked down at the lower speed--for political reasons, not technical or cost-related ones. At the very least, they could have at least done a "quick and dirty" speed fix, much in the same vein done with the Apple IIc Plus. License the ZipGS ASIC design from Zip Technologies/REMcorp, and integrate it onto the main board with a 65C816-14 and some SRAM. The nice thing with the Zip design is it's an all-in-one chip. They wouldn't even give the machine a simple stereo-out jack, even though stereo sound was built-in the Ensoniq chip! Incidentally, the IIGS had graphics comparable to the Amiga, with a 12-bit palette (4,096 colors) and up to 256 colors per screen (16 per scanline), without trickery or CPU load, which even exceeds the Amiga's 32 colors per screen.
Jobs was out by the time the IIgs entered development; I can't pretend to know what the reasoning would have been for throttling the processor but I'm sure it had more to do with maintaining legacy Apple II compatibility than anything else. One big knock on the IIgs was the Ensoniq sound chip which got them into a ton of trouble with Apple Corps and a Jobs-era agreement that Apple Computer wouldn't cross over into music production.
I used to play silent service for hours on this machine. I miss those days.
I still have my IIGS that I got in late 1986. It served me very well from middle school through my first year of college. It was the last computer where I felt that I truly understood how everything worked “under the hood.” It is a great platform for programming with built-in AppleSoft BASIC and mini-Assembler at one end and support for Pascal and C to leverage the IIGS toolbox at the other. I enjoyed watching you fix yours up and hope you post more videos as you get a chance to use it.
I had something similar with the video on mine, but discovered it was a fault in the monitor as it started doing similar things to other systems too. Mine affected the bottom third of the monitor though, might be related but it's hard to say.
Another superb video on an excellent system. Makes you wonder how different the world might have been if the IIGS had beaten out the Macintosh as the lead Apple product. Again, great video, and rock on!
Thanks, glad you liked it! Yea, if the IIgs had the full weight of Apple behind it and ran at a higher clock speed out of the box I bet we would have seen a ton more developer support for it :(
Great video and great memories. I was an Apple engineer on GS/OS back in 1986. GS in Apple IIGS was for Gumby Software according to our development team as that which was our internal team name 🙂
One of my favorite channels already!
Awesome, thanks for continued support!
Lucky you you'v got machine like Apple 2gs, I'm looking for one, it's lovely machine ... you'v done great job Sir.Thanks v much for posting the video well-done.
Loving this channel. Can’t wait for it to take off in the community.
Glad to hear it! Thanks for your support!
I will not let your alliteration go without proper appreciation!
So sweet of someone to spot said silliness and say something!
Yikes! Good catch on that PSU cap!
You said that card was SCSI, but it looked pretty clean to me :]
I've never had the opportunity to own either. ❤
Surprised to see the PSU inspection AFTER you've powered it on several times :-) but nice overview. I hate this term, but the IIgs definitely had a lot of hidden gems, so run as much IIgs-only software on it as you can.
Thanks! Yea, I figured what harm could it do since the seller had powered it up before I got it! Any recommendations on must-try software?
@@retrobitstv Sure, there are some apple iigs demoscene demos to start. Also, Deluxe Music Construction Set has some amazing demo tunes. For games, Bard's Tale and Tass Times in Tonetown have typical but nice uses of music and 16-color graphics. And Becky Heineman ported Out Of This World to it so that's fun.
Sweet thanks, I'll look into those! Next project is to try getting software directly onto the HDD using the WiFi modem instead of the ADTPro transfer method I've been using that requires using floppies.
@@retrobitstv - I'd recommend checking out Zany Golf, The Immortal, Task Force, Rastan, Arkanoid I and II, DuelTris, Thexder, Spacefox, KABOOM, Wolfenstein 3D, Out of This World. Any demos made by FTA or Ninjaforce, particularly MegaDemo and Kernkompetenz from the latter group (you can watch a capture of it on my channel). Music software like synthLAB, Music Construction Set and Diversi-Tune are quite nice (also on my channel). It actually kept up quite well with the Amiga, the problem was it had a lack of software and support, and what software it did get often under utilized its capabilities. Sound-wise it blew the Amiga away, compare the soundtrack for Rocket Ranger on both machines for example, or Zany Golf especially.
The customers who made Apple big, wanted this machine. But Jobs thought otherwise, so the //gs came too late, wasn't marketed and crippled down. Jobs prefered the closed macintosh, that he could control. IBM came with the IBM PC and started dominating the market, even though there were lots of PC clones. Jobs never understood the market advantage of an open system. Who would have bought an Android smartphone, if Android would be closed as IOS?!
Huh, I've never had to recap any of my apple 2s. The macs are another story, but I've never had any failures on the big through hole caps on the apple 2s.
How you conected the IIgs to the 1084 ? Rgb or just composite ? That monitor fits so good on the IIgs, wonder if it´s so heavy for it. Case for me looks a bit weak for hold a heavy crt.
The IIgs is connected to the 1084 via RGB with a custom cable. I was able to source new pigtails for both the Apple and the 1084 side and just wired them together. It works really well! My IIgs does put out some funky sync signals that other monitors don't seem to handle as well. I've been meaning to dig into that and see if I can come up with a workaround. I'm not super worried that the 1084 is too heavy; people used to stack their power savers, disk drives, and monitors on the IIgs back in the day!
The IIGS output analog RGB at 15.75 kHz, so most displays similar to the 1084 should be compatible. I've been hoping to one day build an adapter cable to connect up my Amiga 1080 monitor and Atari SC1224 (not sure where I'd find the funky connector the Atari uses though, and not hacking off the end!). I've even used VGA monitors that sync down to NTSC frequency, like my NEC MultiSync 3D or Sony CPD-1302. All they require is a simple Apple->VGA adapter attached to the cable.
I wish there was a graphics card that would allow you to plug in a standard svga monitor.
I mirrored a video about a prototype for what likely would have been the gs+. The theoretical specs (integrated super drive, 40mb hard drive, ram slots, upping the stock clock speed) would have made it a compelling option to a certainty audience in my eyes.
Hell I would have wanted younger me to have one.
I haven't tried, but a RetroTink or OSSC would probably fit the bill for upscaling to VGA. Yea it's a shame there weren't further/more powerful IIgs models, it's a great platform, just needed more oomph.
@Andrew Singleton - Actually there is the Second Sight card for the IIGS, released in 1995 by Sequential Systems. It lets you use a standard VGA monitor, but unfortunately it had some quirks, mainly due to the firmware not quite completed. I have one but they're fairly rare to find these days. If you can find a VGA monitor that syncs down to 15 kHz, you can use that directly with the IIGS (e.g. NEC MultiSync 3D, Sony CPD-1302). Personally I prefer the AppleColor RGB, and those manufactured between 1986-1989 because of the quality of the tube. I think some Atari ST's SC1224 monitor used that same tube, though you'd need to wire a proper cable.
pay attention with the vacuum cleaner unless that brush is ESD safe!
Thanks for the heads-up! The brush attachment isn't specifically ESD safe, but it is genuine horsehair which I'm lead to believe is safer to use than e.g. nylon. I'll keep my eyes open for a proper attachment :)
i am here too!!
Appreciate the support!
great shirt!!!
Thanks :)
No baking soda mixed with superglue? 😁
That adds a little strength to parts.
I've never tried that but I've seen it done. Recently I've found that there are 3d printed models for all kinds of IIgs blanking plates so I am going to run off a bunch of them, including one that'll fit my USB port!
@@retrobitstv the mix hardens like a rock but it can be brittle, depending on the thickness.
For restoring pillars and add strength epoxy works very well too. 3D printed parts lack smoothness imho, unless one wants to go through extra processes to smooth and polish the parts.
GREAT video! Thanks! One question: Where did you get the cable to hook the IIgs up to the Commodore monitor? If you soldered it yourself do you know of any good sources of info on how to go about it? I'm looking to get a hold of an Apple IIgs and seeing as how those monitors tend to die during shipping I'll be using my trusty 1084 with it, but I can't seem to find an appropriate cable.
Thanks! I made the cable myself. Here's the the 1084 connector: www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tensility-international-corp/10-00436/2625286 and the pinout for Analog RGB: gona.mactar.hu/Commodore/monitor/Commodore_1084_pinout_DIN-rotated_large.png
The IIgs end uses a DB15 connector with the following pinout: www.apple2faq.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Apple_IIgs_RGB_pin_outs.jpg Connect R, G, and B accordingly. I tied the grounds together, and connected the Apple's csync to the 1084's hsync pin.
There are also VGA and SCART adapters you can buy for the IIgs directly.
@@retrobitstv wow, thanks! This us super helpful. I'm very excited to get my first taste of AMERICAN computer history. Those Apple II machines are very uncommon here, and I've not met anyone who grew up in the 80s or 90s who grew up with an Apple machine. Still so many great american developers started on the Apple II, and so many historically sognificant games were made on it. Seems strange to be a vintage computer enthisiast and NOT have some sort of Apple II in my collection :)
@@nevilovermann797 The Apple II and later IIgs were super common here as we had them in our schools. The machines we didn't have over here were the BBCs, Sinclairs, Amstrads, MSX, etc. I have a lot of catching up to do with all of these systems :) Enjoy the IIgs though, it's the best of both worlds as there's a huge library of Apple II software and some pretty great IIgs specific stuff as well!
@@retrobitstv Do you think there could be issues since the machine is NTSC and my monitors are PAL? Will the RGB signal work regardless? I've never owned an NTSC-machine before so I really have no idea about the differences. The machine is on it's way to me now and I'm going to order a new PSU, which should support my voltages, but apart from that I have no idea what to expect from an NTSC machine in terms of difficulties.
I'm sorry to lean on you here, but any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated :)
@@nevilovermann797 You likely won't be able to use the IIgs composite output since I believe that's NTSC-only. You should be fine using RGB, as there is no NTSC/PAL encoding to worry about. My 1084 can sync fine with both 50 and 60hz RGB sources, so I assume yours will too. And even better, you should be able to switch the machine to 50hz mode by hitting closed apple-ctrl-esc instead of the usual open apple-ctrl-esc used to enter the setup menu. Good luck and enjoy the machine!
Issue is in the monitor itself. It needs degaussed
Was it available outside the US? I can't seem to find any 50Hz units. Can you overclock it to 8Mhz?
It was available outside the US and all models (well maybe not ROM0?) can output 50Hz RGB. To select the video standard, hold down the closed apple/option key when turning on the machine and a menu will pop up. Hit 3 to select 50Hz. All models are hardwired for NTSC-only on the composite output. No problem if you're using a SCART cable though. There's a hardware mod you can make to get PAL color on the composite port too.
Do you clean computers for others as a business?
Sorry, just as a hobby!
First comment! Great video!
Thanks! Glad you liked it!
The IIgs was very good back in the day, but today it is *totally* *outgunned* by the cheapest Windows PC.
It's like comparing a Ford Pinto to a modern Tesla. Sorry, but that's the truth. And I owned the IIgs Woz Edition as a kid.
That would be the case for any old compared to today, wouldn't it? lol
@@kentucker3259 Yes, but why *restore* an old dinosaur like the Apple IIgs? It cannot do much of anything, in 2024.
@@DerekDavis213 Sure it can.
@@kentucker3259 Like what? Slow super low-res games? Or some primitive spreadsheet with a 64k memory limitation? Or maybe using a 9600 baud modem to call BBS lines? That's like a snail in a world of Ferraris.
Useless video. No Clue about electronics.
Everybody go to Adrian’s Digital basement.
you need to clarify the content
Why do Americans say "sauder" instead of solder?
Same reason they say category instead of catagree?