White vs Barber - Debate Watch Party
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Is Open Theism Biblical and true? James White of AominOrg debates Tim Barber of TheOverlapLifewithTimBarber on the topic of God's omniscience and the nature of the future: "Does God Know the Future Exhaustively and Perfectly?"
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#OpenTheism #Determinism #omniscience
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After debate watch party here: ruclips.net/user/liveMUqJkdw8v6g?si=YcFgjtlIHDASp4co
I think Tim's position was the most comprehensible open thiest position I've heard, he made his position very clear. Simple, straightforward, and honest approach. Thanks for hosting this Warren!
THANK YOU! So grateful to have made the case I did.
Dr. White lost this debate. His biggest weakness is his denial of determinism, while at the same time defending it when he attempts to make it sound holy by calling it a "decree".
yeah. he complains against using terms such as fate or determinism because they're "impersonal" but that's just semantics. it does nothing to address anything.
He only denies determinism in the sense that he doesn't use the word. When he is in full control of the narrative, and has comments and likes/dislikes disabled, he says all the quiet parts out loud.
Yep . How can anyone just keep falling for the idiocy he continues to spew ?
1. Tim did a very good job with his role tonight.
2. James got pwned.
3. I am still not an Open Theist, but I am still studying this overall topic.
If you believe that God is living, responsive, relational, free, etc…. then you are an open theist. The future either doesn’t exist yet and is at least partially open or it’s closed and eternally exists somehow. Closed theists have done an excellent job deceiving people into thinking open theism is bad. However, it’s the only way that God can exist in a way where He is not fated and where we can actually have a real relationship with Him.
@JohnK557 Thanks for responding. I've heard a number of definitions and explanations of OpenTheism that I have some pushback for. Mostly it deals with how God relates to time rather than how He relates to man.
I'm not definitive on anything yet and I do believe He is dynamic and omniscient. So I wouldn't have a problem with that as a label, per se.
@@swordmasterpublicationsThat’s the thing isn’t it. Open theism is open for debate. All Christian thought can be discussed as the Holy Spirit leads us we can reason together to discern the difference between truth and deception. What’s the other option? Closed, where the future eternally exists necessarily with God and can’t be changed in anyway if it’s already certainly settled. Not even by God who is fated by His own eternal knowledge of what must be.
The biggest problem I find with people discussing how “God relates to time” is that they always fail to first define time. The only thing closed theism can offer you is theories of time none of which can be rationally explained or demonstrated by Gods revealed reality.
God is both dynamic and omniscient in most open theist views. The objection from closed theists about how God is not omniscient in OT comes from them begging the question that the future already eternally exists. A presupposition that fails in every way in my opinion.
God bless you in your studies!
@@JohnK557 thanks.
James’s argument: All means all only when we say it means all.
I see what you did there😂
@@Steven.1611 I appreciate you.
Good one 😂❤
It oughta be against the law for calvinists to use the word " all " .
James extended the losing streak here….
I think James White is 0- 3- 97 debates, his Tie is against a Muslim, JW and a Unitarian because James can't win.
@@hudsontd7778but white thinks he wins the Muslim ones because Muslim by choice reposts his stuff and (paraphrasing) hes reposting arguments where I show he's wrong
@@hudsontd7778 That's an opinion. Congratulations!
@@hudsontd7778that’s not how records work
Really? Tim Barber only proved one thing. That his god created the heaven and the earth and sat back and said, “You’re on your own because I don’t have a clue.”
Warren, God Bless and keep your son, Idol Killer Jr, and the rest of your beautiful children. They are blessed to have a father like you.
@@joserivera8429 thank you so kindly
White completely wasted his rebuttal. All he did was yell “strawman!”, then strawmanned his opponent, then repeated his Calvinist talking points, then quoted scripture assuming it backs up his position.
White lives in a world of mirrors, and mistakes his own reflections for other people.
Really impressed by Tims calmness in the face of being ad hominemed/shouted over & not being walked over
Not an open theist, but I enjoyed watching Barber take White down a peg. Seriously, what a good job, especially on the cross examination.
James thinks the term "in time" is some magical term that fixes all his inconsistencies.
Exactly lol
Yeah it makes no sense. I don’t even want to say why cause he’ll probably see this comment and come up with a new word or circular argument to defend it. People get why that doesn’t make sense lol.
So glad James agreed to this debate. Tim is doing well refuting James' strawman arguments.
He had no choice... it was decreed....but not predetermined ...🫡🤔🫣🙄😅🤣😂
And Dr James white dont write out rebutall and closing stamtement before hand!
@@sorrowinchrist3387 Tim didn't write out a rebuttal. He had notes of verses and points he wanted to remember, knowing James' usual talking points. There is nothing wrong with having notes on a topic you know is going to come up. Being prepared is a good thing.
1. I don't consider myself an open theist, but after watching this I now understand that Tim would include me in their tent if I believe that God knows all the potential as well as the actual. Point to Tim for getting across how broad the scope of Open Theism could be.
2. I don't consider myself a Calvinist, but after watching this, I heard James distance himself from terms Calvinists use and then give a distinction with no difference, tearing down his own argument, and setting up shop on its remains.
3. I have not heard Tim debate before, but he seemed very prepared, eloquent and focused.
4. I have heard James debate before and he seemed to expect to sweep the debate without preparing, and was concerned when he was unable to. He frequently alluded to Tim having prepared in advance for common arguments that James makes as if that was improper. I'm sure his Calvinist audience will appreciate the audacity of attempting to make debate prep a point against his opponent. They appreciate everything else he says and does, quite regularly.
5. I noticed that Tim cut James off in cross once he had established enough of the point he wanted. While efficient in a short debate, this was not courteous to his opponent, as James rightly pointed out.
6. I noticed that James consistently represented Tim's view in a way different than Tim himself had represented it. This was not courteous of his opponent, and James was either being disingenuous, or dense. I am not inclined to think James is dense.
On the debate topic, I started closer to James' side than Tim's. I wish James's arguments and rebuttals had been more cogent, I wish he had attempted to understand his opponent's arguments to better refute them, and I wish he had the respect for himself to behave courteously in debate. Arrogance does not engender respect, nor does brash confidence when not paired with preparation. And you can't tell me James didn't know exactly where Tim was going with those verses, and stopped reading one verse short of the point to say he didn't get it, by accident.
Impressed by Tim, though we believe differently. And interested to hear more from him in the future.
James left a quite different impression, and maybe I should watch more debates where he agrees with me, if only to challenge my own presuppositions.
Surly Calvinism is an anti gospel?
He’s the creator of evil then, like Doc Craig claims.
Sinse it’s logically impossible for an evil God to exist, Calvin Christ is a non secqutor.
It has to blasphemy because their worshiping a God they’ve created in their own image.
Sorry. Me again. Invoking divine command theory which seems to be a nessesity, God can’t do any wrong.
God then is only evil if HE says he is. And if so, paridoxicly, he’s still not evil.
Doubly deep depravity can get the calvinists off. Our moral epistemology is inverted. We can’t see the truth of the gospel because it’s good so we, being evil ,see it as evil.
We being evil think that evil is Good.
PSA, original sin or even ancestral sin ( as I see it)the moral root , is Calvinist. Since Christs sacrifice on the cross is Grace, then doesn’t it follow that HE gets to decide how many people he will die for?
“ You don’t put demands on God” ( a deased friend)
This was essentially a repeat of the Warren/Slick debate. This dude out of nowhere simply destroys the established Calvinist.
This guy brought the heat. White looks worse and worse with each new debate.
White interrupted almost every single answer that Tim attempted to give, and then pretends he is the wronged party for receiving what he dished out
this was great fun! going to check out Tim Barber's stuff more
Also, Warren - I just have to say, it really added a lot of joy to watching this for me, to occasionally glance over & see your son smiling when Mr. Barber makes a great point. Tells me your son has a love for God's word - & that's always awesome to see in young people. Just love that.
I'm a mom, & I hope to inculcate a love for the Lord & scripture in my daughter. So far, so good - her prayers are a joy to listen to, & sometimes she'll say things that really surprise me. She was asking me questions about a conflict she'd overheard me listening to news about - & basically wanted to know who the good & bad guys were. And I told her the kid-friendly breakdown of the situation, & said I feel like X side is the victim of Y side in a way, but that I don't take a side, that I just want the civilians in both places to go unharmed, etc., etc. & she said, "well, I'm on God's side, mommy." And I had no idea where she got the idea to say that, but I was pretty impressed by it.
Dude… that opening statement was 👌. He torched basically every route James could take.
White will never debate Dr Ken Wilson. Augustine used power politics to falsely accuse Pelagius of multiple heresies. Interesting history to go through that time line.
Tim did an outstanding job. He was not messing around!
Tim rattled James and he took every opportunity to dismantle his terrible doctrines and expose him.
Who else is watching the reactions and body language of the person not speaking? There is such a massive difference between the two.
at 1:55:00, Tim absolutely buries James in "how do you know you aren't deceived now?"
Every JW debate I've ever seen follows the same outline. He begins by begging the question and strawmanning his opponent, then when refuted he picks one word or phrase and claims that no one who has ever read anything of worth about reformed theology would say such a thing, followed by mocking tones made to have the audience view his opponent as nothing more than a joke, then moves on to obfuscating by using greek, after which he returns back to step one of begging the question. Every of the time!
I am flabbergasted and encouraged seeing your young boy not only watch the debate with you but seemingly enjoy it as well! (My teenage daughter would never 😅)
Keep up the great job as father. This was awesome to see. Both the result of the debate but also the insight into your personal life.
Gonna listen to this while painting.
Tim did a phenomenal job!
"Im ready to kick loose!"
Put that on a shirt. Lol
The moderator’s voice is hypnotically soothing.
Tim is the man of this debate 🎉
God is humbling James White and James is just too proud to hear the rebuke. He hardens his own heart. I just recall Jesus’ words in Matthew, …”how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”
Seeing Warren and his son hanging out 😊 makes my day , 👍 Warren please be wise and take part in his interests , make sure to grow together 💞 , not apart 😔 🙏
Absolutely!
Brutal.
How is it grace or mercy if God already decreed ahead of time how it was going to be?! These are superfluous concepts if God is inextricably bound to the outcome.
Finally getting to watch this.... Tim started kind, but once JW started getting rude, the gloves were off.
Barber just opened this debate with a Nuclear Theological Bomb(s). Calvinism is incomprehensible to anyone with a functioning brain! KABOOM!
It's time to just write James off. Not only is he lost in his heresies, he's dug his heels in on his heresies. Willful ignorance with no hope.
He is a false teacher and a liar. His conscience is seared so that he lies any time it suits him without batting as eye
I don't think he realizes he's promoting a fundamentally Satanic belief.
I hope so anyway.
Unless of course he repents.....whether by decree or predetermined outside of time controlling those bound by time....only God knows....🫡🤔🙄
Barber's rebuttal reminds me of the Wilson vs Dillahunty debate in that he really anticipated what White would open with.
"If you don't allow for my special pleading, we're gonna have a problem..." - Jimothy R. White
This was so frikn good.
1:56:20 The change in my beliefs is evidence that God is at work correcting my beliefs; therefore my position is correct. Talk about an unfalsifiable belief.
Exactly! How did James give that full answer, and completely miss that the next inevitable question should be, "And how do you know that God hasn't determined for you to correct your beliefs to stop believing Calvinism next?"
That, or something like it, was surely the point Tim was driving at, and I don't think James could see it.
Kansas City Shuffler James can't sit down after a spanking like that!
Folks, I think we just found the White tamer. Tim is my new favorite superhero. This was so beautiful to watch.
I love everytime he says “fascinating”. Sounded like a lawyer who has the perp on the stand and just knows all the lies the perp is saying. I think James White needed to check his blood pressure after this debate 😂
Man - again, THANK YOU for this. The superhero and blood pressure comments help me connect the dots to another person over on FB, so thank you again! :)
If there's to be any distinction between determinism and decredalism, then open theists would be the decredalists. God decrees things will happen, and then he uses his power to make them happen. And if circumstances change, he can alter his decree.
After all, the whole reason to decree something instead of simply doing it is if to retain the ability to modify the decree.
56:47 - “an opening is not a rebuttal, Jim!”
This made me bust out laughing. I though Barber said that 😂
james white forgot to somehow connect tim to the #baalgate conspiracy
I'm having Trump-Biden debate flashbacks
Who is the liar
@@israelmacario3853 James White
Warren, I honestly came to this debate rejecting wholeheartedly determinism/fatalism/decredalism and not being an open theist. This may make me look into open theism more. I honestly haven’t given it the thought that was presented in Tim’s opening statement.
This is the highest compliment you could have paid me. All I wanted was to present it as a viable option for Bible-loving Christians. Thank you for these kind words!
I don't think I'm an "open theist," but I'm not diametrically opposed to most of what Tim was saying. The way I wrap my brain around the free will and sovereignty issue is that God knows the future because He exists in the future that we and He create through our choices. Yet, He's wise and powerful enough to accomplish his purposes. Like an akido master he's able to redirect the force of an opponent's punch into their own face without desiring or causing them to throw the punch at Him in the first place.
Interesting 🤔
I wish I could’ve watch in real time, but I’m just catching this.
Putting aside Tim’s absurd seeming endorsement of post millennialism (which is the small bus of eschatology), Tim clearly won this debate.
I'm an amil partial preterist - I used some points of affinity to lay a trap which he gleefully traipsed into.
James White's ENTIRE livelihood hinges on whether he continues to hold to his reformed views. He will never change his mind. He knows what pays his bills and funds his 401k. #Facts
Dr. White reads himself into Ephesians 1, which clearly says that God predestined those who are in Christ to be sons of God through adoption.
Did James really say God doesn't wind something up and let it go? Isn't that what a decree is? God created everything in a moment and we are all just following the decree "unwinding". (22:20)
Somebody somewhere said something about inconsistency in arguments, I can't quite remember how it goes.
1:03:10 What would I think about someone who created potentiality for evil without "purpose." The purpose is freedom. JW seems to not have a basic ability to think from his opponent's perspective.
That's not what they mean. However, that is a pretty good definition of Deism.
@@duncescotus2342 Typically in a reply I would expect a rebuttal not a simple claim. How is a decree in eternity past, that will with specificity cause all things that will ever come to be, different from winding something up and letting it unwind?
@@michaelnewswanger2409 A "decree" of God, (though I strongly object to such a term, as it's unclear, loaded with connotation and not much denotation, outmoded, and unhelpful!) is very different from physical causality (which is a sufficient difficult problem in itself!).
God is:
1. Omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent (the Greek is "pantokrator" almighty, all powerful)
2. But even more, He is three persons, not one, each with a will, and we have to admit some division of labor!! though we firmly affirm those wills are harmonious. As Jesus says:
"I do not my own will...."
3. Within the will of God we have Paul's hierarchy (?):
"the good, the acceptable and the perfect..."
4. That God knows all, sees all, is uncontroversial, but that does not preclude God's intimate operation among men, his creatures
5. Furthermore with Christians things are far different than with unbelievers who don't have Christ ("if any man has not the spirit of Christ he does not belong to him..."). Among Christians the Holy Spirit resides and abides, not only in the individual believer but corporately in the Church. That is clear from the chapters of John in which the Lord teaches about the coming Paraclete, and in Acts when that event is fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.
6. So we must always keep the narrative of scripture in mind. What DID God do for us? And how does that impact our abilities as believers. We have been given a new heart and mind, but individually that heart and mind is not complete. In the body of Christ, all members in unity and cooperation, "we have the mind of Christ."
7. These debates of free will and divine purpose (decree, or whatever word one wishes to use for the unseen ways of God, which are not our ways, as scripture says) must be framed in the context of proper triadology (Trinitarian dogmatics), pnuematology (how the Holy Spirit operates) and of course Christology/soteriology (how we are saved by the one who saves, the only begotten Son of God).
Ok, I hope I have been clear. Comments welcome.
@@duncescotus2342 As someone following along, I'll confess I'm still not sure what you are saying. I think you got very off track with your answer (something I tend to do as well). Do you mean that Calvinists are like Deists, and that's what your phrase of "lacking physical causality" refers to?
@@briancross9571 Thank you for that question. I would say not necessarily: Calvinism makes many errors, while Deism is nothing but a heresy. There are historical overlaps, because the 18th century Deists at the time of the Founding Fathers came from an English Reformed tradition that was very much influenced by Calvinism in the previous century, for example the Westminster Confession, the English Civil War which put Puritans in charge, and the Glorious Revolution which put William and Mary in charge when James II converted to Catholicism.
It's important to have some historical background because these arguments within the larger tradition of Calvinism and the more narrow American Evangelical Baptist tradition (where we get James White and the other brothers here, for the most part, idk for sure) are nothing new.
The analogy of God being like a watchmaker is a famous Deistic one. Also they likened him to a great architect. He made the plans, but humankind has total freewill and the use of reason to avoid the bad and perform the good. That is a grotesque exaggeration, and a far cry from the witness of holy scripture. We need to keep a more pessimistic view of mankind because of a three letter word-- sin.
In fact the Deists went far beyond the old Pelagians, who at least affirmed Christ. Their Enlightenment heresy is unfortunately built in to our documents and way of life as Americans. Christians need to beware.
But the problem of a spring is one of physics, Hooke's law and so forth. We cannot speak of God in such simple terms. He does not obey our analogies, especially one of an inanimate kind, rather our analogies ought to express some truth about him.
Barber: “Was Aaron God’s second choice?”
White: “You do not have that opportunity, sir!”
That didn’t sound like someone who loves debate or truth, that sounded like someone with a wounded ego.
James White being a Calvinist, has to defend his position at all cost, despite the fact that we can find many places in the Old Testament where the Almighty leaves the future open for the Israelites to do what they decide to do. Having free will does not harmonize with determinism. Just a note, James is also a Trinitarian, which is another doctrine which sounds good, but it is alongside as incoherent as the concept of predeterminism.
I now deeply want to hug our little Jimmy. Tim and his reed of correction have gone to work!
I almost feel bad for Dr. White...Tim thoroughly mopped the floor with James in this debate
I appreciate this - my heartfelt thanks!
Blessings from Finland !
Oof, this should be an anti-bullying ad. 😅 Way to go Tim.
The look Tim gives James at 1:55:19 is the perfect visual representation of how non-calvinists everywhere felt hearing that.
In retrospect, this is one of my favorite moments of the night
If Calvinists really believed in determinism they would feel ZERO need to debate, explain, convince, argue, or prove anything.
They'd just be happy in their little elected conclaves, kinda like the Amish.
They'd just live happily elected and ready to passively take in anyone who has figured out they too are elected.
The concept of CONVINCING would NOT even be in their lexicon.
56:44 - “an opening is not a rebuttal, Jim!”
If I was live, I would ask who would win in arm wrestling! 😁
I could already tell the winner of such a hypothetical contest, not having seen either of these guys before, watching on 144p.
😀
This debate ended before it even started. I mean, White is already bald…
😂 🤭
Idol killer jr. "What's your thoughts on the olympics?"
#shotsfired!
Came for Warren. Stayed for Mason.
James White never fails to depress .
Listening to Tim’s rebuttal again. Lol 😂 He pulled no punches. Just as good the second and third time as it was the first time!
Thank you so much, Desirie! 😂
Please someone help me understand what happened here? 2:00:39
Why is Jimmy upset? I am missing something.
“Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell. They have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat. Those who make them become like them; so do all who trust in them.”
Psalm 115:4-8 ESV
A god who created man and made him “fall” just so that he could save the day and show his glory… James has developed the same narcissism as his god. I guess it was written that way 🤷🏾♂️
Wow Tim is tearing him up
Water and cookies? Not even bitter coffee? The debate was over before it began: God would never decree such a thing
The fact that you raise your kids to love Theology, love debate, and be on fire for God is awesome
Did Mason enjoy jame's strawmaning?
Mason enjoyed the debate, but probably liked reading the comments more 😂
One hour in and i could have predetermined this debate:
JW: opens
TB: opens
JW: THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! 1:02:24
@justingeorge8049 James objected that Tim didn't use his opening as a rebuttal 😆
this has to be James White's WORST debate... not bc White was unprepared but because the other guy did *_SO WELL_* articulating his position and holding James White to the inconsistencies of his weirdo theology vs *_THE ACTUAL PLAIN READING OF THE BIBLICAL TEXT_*
nice work TimBarber... nice work indeed.
THANK YOU! I'm overwhelmed by how kind everybody has been. I felt like I had a very good game plan going in, but the results are far better than I had anticipated.
@@TheOverlapLifewithTimBarber The Lord clearly used you in this! Keep up the good work!
LOL- love the dig "29:40" "we don't know what we will call it so we will call it Dynamic Omniscience..." Guess who he had in mind there...
I need to repent of the excessive pleasure I derive from seeing James getting whooped in debate...
Trent Horne beating him on home turf was my other favourite ; )
James White: "I believe what the Westminster Confession of Faith says, what the London Baptist confession of faith says, that God has sovereignly decreed whatsoever comes to pass. I believe in the sovereign decree"
Also James White: "We are not told what the decree is, we don't know these thing's"
Ummm, what?
Mason is the business, he like “so what your guys’ thoughts on the olympics “ 😂😂😂😂😂😂in the meantime we are watching a debate on the nature of God and his relationship to evil, please man the microphone “ok dad” …. “ So what do you guys think about the olympics !! “ amazing, best moment of the debate.
I caught him off guard when I asked him to man the mic. 😂
Put some respect on the boy’s name. I love it. I wish I had watched it live. At the end of the day life has so many other things happening, after the debate life continues, the olmpics work and the rest. I’m so happy with Mason, wish I had seen it live.
I got about halfway through this before it got taken down. Great comments & thoughts thrown in to respond to JW's claims as they happen.
As a sidenote - I noticed there was a commenter named "Apokatastasis"... I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on this Early Church doctrine. Your PSA series with Paul Vendredi played a big part in me seeing it as a valid position. Andrew Hronich had a 2-part defense of it on Capturing Christianity, if you're interested.
Thanks for the work you do!
I find it very "condescending" of Mr. White to speak as though the abundance of powers God demonstrates He has, throughout the Book, are somehow insufficient to explain how He can know that what is prophesied in the Book will to come to pass, without "seeing into the future". He can, obviously, make/cause to happen the future He wishes to make/cause, and Him "seeing into the future" won't change a thing about that required ability. Not a thing.
(Except in the imaginations of people who don't think this requirement through, of course ; )
1:55:16 -- "It's His decree that led to you holding a false belief."
"That's not deception!... I am to grow in the grace & knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, this is in time. God did not have to deceive me into believing something wrong. I have to learn the truth over time. That's what the Spirit does in our lives."
But if man remains believing God-decreed falsehoods, and dies in that belief - then God did indeed deceive him, leaving him to die in his error, and suffer forever.
"God wants to do this thing, man wants something else God's will is thwarted by man" JW
Moses said no to God "I'm a bad speaker" - God reminded Moses HE can speak through Him - Moses still said no - and God used Arron to speak for him. (Using someone else) Paul said yes. If Paul says no, God is not out of resources..Many people were already alive who could say YES or He could create someone "Out of these stones" for himself.
HIs over arching will still take place - Moses and Arron go to Pharoah although not as God reveals He wanted initially (Moses to speak to Pharoah) it still gets done. If Paul doesn't go, someone else goes.
When I look back at this debate , I have to wonder who White was debating against.
This was James getting a beat down like I've never seen.
Brutal!
@@sqwearl1392 he still can't sit down after that paddlin... may be a few more days yet
Wow - this is some HIGH praise! Thank you for your kind words! Please pray for him. I care deeply about the state of his soul.
@@TheOverlapLifewithTimBarberSo you think he’s not saved even though you assumed that he is as Christian as you are to the point of going to heaven and praising God together? Did you lie?
@@jesustalkspace I hope you know that this is not at all what I said.
"The state of a person's soul" isn't limited to whether or not they are saved and bought by the blood of Christ.
Somebody can be very deceived, bitter, prideful, and otherwise not displaying the fruit of the Spirit and still be a believer.
Please don't try to read subtext into my words. I am not on your side, but I am not a liar.
@@TheOverlapLifewithTimBarber Well you have to be very careful with what you say and what you mean by it, because anyone can understand by your statement that you believe he isn’t saved, specially when you say the words “state of soul,” that can very much mean that he isn’t saved according to you rather than what you say you actually meant. God bless.
1:17:38 3 cheers for Mason!
He was so nervous!
School is in session, James it’s time to do some learning.
I believe James has a different meaning of sovereign than I do
This is a common problem with proposition based systems, in the same manner that printing more money causes inflation and devalues any individual dollar.
The more words people have to use apart from the Bible to try and explain what the Bible "really means" or "teaches", the less value any of the words used has.
Folks are literally undermining the authority of scripture trying to show their own perceptions are the only correct view of what scripture plainly states, while convincing themselves that they are somehow doing the source text any justice.
Very discouraging situation.
Thanks for the watch party Warren and Mason! ❤
Praying for Tim's future growth in the debate field.
I cannot take Calvinism seriously because it doesn't present the same consistent character of God described by God Himself in the Scripture.
It's like some stranger trying to tell me what kind of person my father is like.
Miss me with that garbage, I don't care about their Lord and Savior John Calvin and his caricature of my God.
If your theological philosophy requires
- The Lord God to be micromanaging, and specifically exhaustively determining the future and its outcome in order for Him to have "sovereignty" over it as God,
Then you've created a weak and inept interpretation of God.
You're honestly going to tell folks that God has to be a puppet master over any opposition in order for Him to be in control?
That's a weak God and directly contrasted to the character that God Himself describes of Himself in His own Scripture.
1:04:03 James you’re conflating two different scriptures
Honestly, not even being open theist, it's frustrating how James White only ever argues for Calvinism, even when it is irrelevant or shuts down any other interpretations.
Also him saying "Fascinating" is absolutely hilarious and intentionally frustrating
Got it back up?! Woohoo! Did James White back down on his ridiculous petty copyright comments?
@@robertlee8519 Rich who made the claims under the AOMin Twitter account walked them back and said he didn't intend to imply such action... so it's back up!
Calvinism makes people crazy. :(
1:16:44 tim just owned JW on his rebuttal. That was raw
BTW, maybe have a collab with Barber? Debate review?
“Boom” glazing like crazy and he just started talking in minute 36.
I was mixed about watching the whole thing but then Mason came on
My jaw hit the floor! I have enjoyed many debates and support of Dr. White but I have never witnessed him emotionally appealling the determinism of Calvinism which I have, for many years, had a major theological disagreement with, putting it mildly. If the determinism of Calvin is true the free will and the Gospel of Jesus Christ are worthless!
Well done to Mr. Barber, I am convinced that I am an Open Theist but I want to look in to more.
Dr. White a bit of advice. Leave the emotional appeals at home. Prepared rebuttals are appropriate and allowed especially if someone researched your position. That was embarrassing!