Death Of Privateer Press/Warmachine Part II
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Due to popular demand we cover more details about the business practices which ultimately led to the decline of Privateer Press and their flagship game Warmachine.
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Your videos are so fascinating, to actually get the perspective of a LGS, as opposed to a players(myself) or a corporation/maker. Man I wish you were closer to Kingston! Keep up the great work.
It was 100% Matt's dream to beat GW because he HATED the GW model. This is why PP started with all metal, and models that were NEVER removed from the game, etc. Warmachine was literally a case of "I can build a better game than GW can." And it was true for a time. Sadly, they could NOT "build a better sales model than GW."
It was funny to watch them backtrack on that stuff over the years. The switch from metal alone I remember pissing people off something fierce, they considered it a betrayal. Didn't help that the first new plastics weren't amazing sculpts and were terrible quality compared to GW's injection-molded models. It was some of the worst material I ever worked with, other than "Finecast."
As I recently learned from researching reddit posts by ex-employees, the long-term plan was to be bought up by Asmodee. But that fell through, and what we are seeing now is plan B for those who remain. AMG is what became plan B for the PP talent who left after the deal fell through. Your videos have helped show what went wrong from the game store perspective, so MK3 was a bad rollout for the stores, not just the players. It also explains my experience doing special orders at my local game store these days from PP, one employee was shocked to see PP models arrive from the distributor until he saw it was because of a special order.
The loss of Pressgangers had more to do with labor laws; magic the gathering lawsuits; etc. When they lost them, they lost the stores.
The pressgangers were the communicators.
Another future video, what happened to the volunteer corps and was it actually good?
I really like the “behind the scenes” look if you will, about the business of the hobby. It helps in a sea of folks who are primarily focused from the customer perspective.
Mark 3 was great at first, then shortly after it came our they started focusing heavily on "theme lists." The rewards for building an army as a theme list was tons of free points worth of models in your list. It was so extreme, that if didn't run a theme list, your army was 10-25% smaller than your opponent. You had to run one. At least in my area, people hated it because they were forced to build into one of these list and buy extra models.
Hilariously, the devs who thought this up are doing it again in Legion with “theme lists” unlocking really powerful command cards.
They had problems with balance before theme lists. Skorne being absolute trash isn’t gamer-hyperbolic-overreaction. It was backed up by having 0 Top 3 finishes in any tournament until the January “Skorne Update”, in which every other army, including the minor factions, had had at least 2.
There were three problems with Theme Lists:
1. Most were a generic Warjack list and a generic sub faction list. 2. They slow rolled it over a year, so some factions got plenty before others got any.
3. Mk2’s Boogeyman of Cryx, a top tier army in Mk2, but a mid-slightly below average army in Mk3, which everyone including Cryx players were happy were getting their comeuppance, rocketed right back up to unbeatable boogeyman when they received the very first theme lists.
By editions end, when everyone got some and subfactions hit multiple themes, it was actually a very fun competitive environment
@@timunderbakke8756 Doesn't surprise me. Will Pagani is a power gamer and when he can't cheese a system anymore he starts tacking on new buffs.
@@SuperDuperHappyTime My issue was the absolute focus on competitive play. Like mentioned in the video most tournaments were unpainted minis. As someone who loves narrative, lore, and cool looking models it was my biggest turn off from the game. All the 2D cutouts representing terrain, no support for narrative systems etc.
@@Rook986 Before they got rid of Press Gangers they did have a system of monthly narrative scenarios, But afterwards there main feed back that wasn't the SID was getting copies of the Tournament winning army lists so they could send out foil versions of the cards for the lists as a prize. Those did have the problem that they called for unlikely pieces of terrain that might only get used for a month or two (One month required 2 1ftx2ft barges). Terrain, especially height of terrain was much more important in 1st edition compared with later.
I started as a metal caster right before Mark3 came out, leaving when Covid started. They had a skilled production team, in house everything and things just went sideways and never really course corrected. Matt Wilson never listened to anybody, literally one of the most arrogant people I've ever met. Imagine attracting top tier talent across the skill sets and then referring to them as "morons" for working in production. It's so much dumber than you guys are talking about too, we used to spend days melting parts that we spent days producing just to save metal. Any idea crew members offered up was shot down, only to resurface later as a Matt Wilson idea. Privateer treated the distributors bad, the game stores worse and the players like open wallets. I met some amazingly talented people working there but it was a mad house and the players deserved better.
Thanks for your insights. I'm sorry to hear that was your experience.
Sometimes the person that creates something amazing isn't the same person required to Shepard that thing into the future. I think Matt Wilson needed to realize much sooner, not when he was basically completely out of options and money with a brand in the dumpster 😞
the warmachine computer game kickstarter was also a troublesome affair
All of their kickstarters turned out to be hot garbage to be honest, but Tactics is the one I regret backing the most. At least the minis were neat.
I really like these business videos. It's quite refreshing to see people explaining some of the behind the scenes things GW actually does right - I had no idea that they gave some kind of rebate for army books/codexes being replaced - and that some of their competitors do not.
I remember there was a three-month stretch where PP announced at least one item of bad news every week. To the point that my group half-jokingly told each other to brace for another downer every Thursday. Ending the Pressganger program, removing the forums, a large price increase, the global rebalance, the admittance that Skorne was unplayable, calling online retailers "moochers," etc. All of that took place one after another. I get they wanted to rip off the bandaid but at a certain point they were ripping of everything down to the bone.
I really enjoy these vids, thanks, lads! It's hard not to get frustrated when you hear things like GW factor in the obsolescence of a book that only lasts 3 months at the end of an edition into the cost of new books. It's poor business practice from a consumer perspective.
I remember the exodus of all the talent from PP; over the course of a year all of the big names that were known throughout the community left. They kept saying this doesn't mean the company or game is going under, and then it did. Rumors swirled, but I'm not sure we will never know what happened internally.
It's what happens when talent and work aren't valued. Employees are eventually stupidly seen as liabilities instead of assets. Tale as old as time.
MK4 has been a step in the right direction. With moving to new production and having the old range moved to legacy/unlimited it still allows people to use their old models. There are even unlimited events. Conventions have been pulling in more numbers than in years past. I think in a year or two Warmachine will be making a comeback. On the East coast it has been a big boom! I would very much recommend checking out Delaware Tried and True here on RUclips and Discord.
My store rode the PP rollercoaster. We brought in the game at the start of 2nd edition. At the height of the game, it had a space that rivaled 40k or fantasy and we were a store that carried the entire GW trade range. Warmachine did very well for us and we had a very competitive meta. We had a loyal customer base and generally were able to avoid the "race to the bottom" on price. We did not run into that problem until the release of the huge models. The discount on those was just so much cheaper that they just did not sell for us. Also, having a competitive meta eventually hurt us because the hardcore players stopped playing against the casuals because doing so was not making the hardcore players any better. This created two "factions" within our community and eventually made it so the game stopped growing. Also, PP moved to trying to sell direct to stores right before the launch of Mk3 and the manner in which they did it angered their distributors. I remember when they approached me and basically said "Hey, we want to sell direct to you and cut out the distributors" which made me think "Well if they are cutting out distributors today, they can eventually cut me out too" and so I was not willing to do that. Then the Mk3 chaos hit and the game just fell apart, at least in out area.
Great video. Love the "insider" perspective from the gamestore owner side of the industry. You mention a "race for the bottom" issue, and PP tried to handle that. They created a "free rider" policy, and it might have been the thing that killed the company. It's a deeper story than that, but they tried to handle deep discounts and it didn't work.
Definitely wanna hear your thoughts on Corvus Belli. Infinity had a brief explosion at my local store but now Combat Zone seems to have completely extinguished it.
Strangely perhaps... I am getting back into Warmachine at this time :P
Me too. GW went woke. When you get political you will piss off half of your customers. So PP and Mantic will get my $300 a month I spend on this habit.
If you have a player base near you, it is a great time to get in. Their new resin models are good, the rules are excellent and available for free and they have some interesting new factions.
definitely, played a tourney about 2 weeks ago (i suck but had fun) and there are so many different events, at least in the midwest, that i keep getting alerts about.
As others have said; theme lists were a major problem. The idea was really cool, but the theme lists became so good that you were handicapping yourself if you didn't play one.
The huge models that came there about was also a game changer: to play against someone that had one of those models if you didn't have one yourself could be a real uphill struggle.
Warmachine also had some severe production issues...I remember being on the phone with the online store people for the third time, with them having gone through everything and having to tell me 'I'm sorry, but the mold for this model is damaged, we're not going to be able to get you a non deformed model'.
I'd like to hear that rant about Malifuax :D I don't actually play it, it seemed as an interesting niche game.
Best ruleset I’ve ever played.
Seconded - I can't get my head around how Malifaux can work in a game store with 100+ different boxes where you mostly need 2 boxes to play a keyword.
It must be horrible to stock.
enjoyed the podcast! I like hearing things from the side of the shop.
You cannot charge the prices they wanted for they're models and then give us the crap plastic that they did. They tried to cheap out on material and paid the price.
This is why I couldn't ever get off the ground with WM/H.
PP also had their molds stolen, which led to them transitioning to 3d printing.
Warmachine is great.
@lazraven yes I knew about the stolen molds but that happened way after the Mk3 release. I like the rules very much but despise the company.
Talking about the un-communicated shift to 3rd edition, I can add that as an external playtester at the time, we were also not told about 3rd and did not get to test any of the rules from 3rd prior to release. There were reasons for that, with a lot of leaks coming from some playtest groups and the company apparently having nearly gone bankrupt during the public Field Test for 2nd edition combined to make them I think overly cautious with the development security and secrecy of 3rd which just ended up hurting in other ways.
Super interesting view behind the curtain!
Thanks 👍
MKIII also introduced a lot of Core gameplay issues that left a real bad taste in players mouths and the player base suffered heavily because of it.
The move to 2D terrain was a MASSIVE mistake as the game just looked inferior to every other game that people were playing at the time. Infinity had some of the coolest looking tables and a prospective player would see that and walk over to the flat cardboard looking terrain of Warmachine and correctly assume it was an outdated and ugly looking game.
The Hordes changes to the Animus abilities completely changed the way Hordes armies played and not in a good way. In MKI and II the Animus spells were meant to augment the fact that Warlocks only had 3-4 spells on average vs the Warcaster's 5+. Once they forced Animus abilities to be range-self only, it ruined the ability for Warlocks to buff models like a Warcaster could. MKII already had the issue that Warcaster spells would target units, while an animus would only target a single model, allowing infantry of a Warmachine army to be unfairly superior for no real reason.
Infantry being stronger than the actual Warjacks also made the game feel like it was having an identity crisis. On all the art the Warjacks would take center stage, but anytime you looked at someone's army, it would contain only a few Warjacks and dozens of infantry. Once I realized I could have more Mechs in my 40k army, playing Warmachine felt pointless as nearly every other infantry based skirmish game looked and played better than Warmachine.
I also remember Matt Wilson moving to LA and try to sell his IPs, not PP IPs, but his IPs like Level 7 and Monsterpocalypse that was announced it was picked by Tim Burton but then Pacific Rim showed up…
Always felt that the level of power-creep in new releases is a high indicator of long-term game viability.
Out of curiosity I looked up how available Warmachine is here, the two largest (physical and online) retailers of games like this. One has some MkIII stuff still, one has everything MkIV on sale currently. Even on sale it’s rather expensive, which I guess has to do with distribution in Europe or something.
Your hint about CB made me really curious. 🤓
Jay always looks tired af lol
Don't have another kid at 38 :)
I have no insight into “what happened and why” with Privateer BUT... it definitely changed the way I look at the hobby. Much, much more conservative in terms of embracing new startups. And, to an extent, I’ve even begun to become more “independent”(?) when it comes to GW. As in, if I prefer an early edition, I’m more willing to just play the version I like, rather than slavishly following the supposed progress of the system.
Yep you can also do both, i play the older versions for nostalgia like 2nd and 3rd, but also the latest with the same army
yes, please a Knight Models video!!
Killing the volunteer program for me was critical… it turned they bigger ambassadors and people that pushed the game away… combine it with a meh MKIII release and those people moved on and usually dragged part of the Warmachine community with them
The killing of the Privateer program was due to a Judge in MTG suing Wizards of the Coast. PP didn’t want to face a similar law suit.
Really interesting video. Curious to hear your thoughts about Warlord Games and how they have applied some of the lessons from their time at GW, although I notice you dont carry any of their range?
Chris has those Canadian allergies.
Again Matt Wilson the owner ran his own company into the ground. For whatever reason. Mark3 was ill received from the start . No one here continued to play after it dropped.
Mk3 was kinda bad. Sure, it tried to put the focus back on jacks, and it nerfed some of the cryx builds, but it lacked life and variety. It also made armies huge blobs of figures which mk2 and mk3 were always supposed to bring it back to jacks... it felt like playing Napoleonic games with lines of soldiers. It got so gamey everything went to flat terrain. Might as well be playing a board game. Then there were just constant releases, and too many game systems they were expirementing enough. At least the seasons were narratively interesting but then tbeyvpulled a gw with an age of sigmar level event to introdixe warcaster. A generic hot mess. Aling with riot quest, which could have been ok, but they had to turn that into a more generic board game come second print. All this while 40k got a renewal in life by gw doing 8th ed, and attempting to course correct their issues. Although gw went right back doing what they do best... but yeah PP then announces 4th and says sorry, not a single model will carry over after official full launch of 4th. You meed to buy 200+ dollars boxes for 3d printed models to compete. They doubled down on madness. Sure, some die hards kept on, but everyone i see play now are more or less new.
That was fast.
My personal favorite shills at it again lol.
Love the chats, keep it up guys!
New merch incoming...
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 haha! See you guys at the shop sometime soon!
Warmachine MK4 is going great.
PP is enabling content creators.
The hate is not a good look.
"Death Of Privateer Press/Warmachine"? How clickbaity can you get with a title. Surely not quite as many players now as when it was at its most popular, but that is hardly "death".
Bokur Brawl had 100+ players, RheinCon 80, Welsh Masters have 50+ players signed up, World Team Championships are sold out. PP actually seems to have problems keeping up with the demand for MKIV.
Locally we're seeing lots of players returning, as well as new players joining, we have regular events and game days...
Where is local for you? I'm happy to hear it's doing well in your area. It brings me no personal joy to see any miniature company fail.
All I can speak to is the Canadian market, which basically all but dead.
But mk4 seems to be doing relatively well, much better than mid/late mk3. This "death" is kind of a click-baity exaggeration. It's not anywhere near, say, Chronopia or Confrontation.
They are technically alive.. but at least for a several hundred miles radius you won't find much on any shop wall. This includes where 8 million people live..
And yet, they can be bought in at least two b&m shops in Warsaw Poland. Maybe your local shops should be blamed, then? And players for not asking? Because in Warsaw it was players who convinced shops to order mk4 sets, by promoting the game through demos and events.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Depends on where you live, I guess? My FLGS stocks Warmachine MKIV models.
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Like any game, it's a matter of local perspective
i always was fond of the warmachine/hoards IP but the company that owns it is run terribly.
at this point it will probably go under and hopefully the IP gets bought by somebody else better.
First
so they went bankrupt? they're gone? not any details about your title. too much meandering useless jibber jabber.
You must be new here lol
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 I couldn't care less with your lies and rambling moronic shit
I don’t feel like PP sales were ever 1 to 1 with GW. Also, Star Wars Legion is huge in my parts and was closer to a 1 to 1 situation than Warmachine ever was.
Never said it was 1 to 1 in sales. We were talking about wall space ;)