John, like many of your listeners I am a nevermo who has been absolutely fascinated by the stories you highlight. Over the past year I have listened to hundreds of hours of Mormon stories and have cried hearing the pain some have gone through, felt angry at the institutional flaws within the church, but also been awed at the beauty people have found within the church and in life after it. In this interview it was amazing to hear two well intentioned people with genuine, deep seated disagreements able to communicate with civility and empathy for one another. It honestly makes me feel better about the world in these divided times. Thank you for all of the hard work you do, John. Your passion is infectious and makes me want to be a better person to also contribute to the world in the way that I can.
@@randyjordan5521 John's a busy guy but I just came across the answer to you question in my listening. The discussion begins around @2:33:50 and Patrick says he does not believe polygamy is a divinely revealed principle @2:35:09.
What a GREAT conversation of two amazing men who respect each other and understand each other. I love how John was genuinely touched by different prospectives Patrick explained to him. Loved every moment.
I so very much appreciate Professor Mason for coming onto Mormon Stories and sharing his perspective. While I do not share his conclusions regarding remaining in the Church--he is very forthright and honest about the issues the Church is facing. With all sincerity, I hope that the Church can one day mirror the ideal of what he expressed it can and should be.
A testament to the good work John is doing can be seen in interviews like this. He's respectful, curious, and open to correction. An equal testament to Patrick is his willingness to have a conversation. This is how bridges are built. The church is still untrue - but goodness is can be found in our attempts at truthful dialogue.
I’m a hardened atheist and almost didn’t click to watch Patrick’s interview because I love listening to faith journey/transition/exmo stuff but I’m so glad I did. What a good-faith conversation, the world need more of these.
Credit to Patrick for coming on and answering all of the tough questions. It has been a really good and edifying discussion, John has done well asking the tough questions but in a way that is respectful and not divisive. I admire Patrick's faith, but his integrity to not always try to defend the church and Joseph Smith when he thinks they're in the wrong such as with past racist teachings, the church's wealth or sexual abuse! I personally think we need more people like Patrick, who shows empathy and understanding and is willing to have a dialogue! He comes across genuine and sincere in his faith in Christ. We need more faithful voices to come onto the podcast to bridge gaps
What a fascinating human being. To be an active, fully engaged Mormon, and to be 100% aware and okay with garbage being mixed all through your scriptures and things your modern church leaders are saying without any indication of when it's from God or not, and for "God works in strange ways" to be your explanation for why you stay... Fascinating. I'm glad he acknowledged that some would say that's an awfully weird way for a God to act. That's me for dang sure!
These past two episodes with Patrick have been absolutely incredible. I have been taught, fed and moved beyond anything I could have imagined. I look forward to the next episode where he is able to ask John and Margi questions. What an uplifting, enlightening and tender expression of belief and experience. Thanks to all.
Thank you so much for a beautiful conversation. I am wowed by Dr. Mason's answers and his ability to look outside the framework box of fundamental church teachings.
Patrick Mason is a rock star in my opinion for providing great clarity of the differences between the academic study of religions and specifically Mormonism, vs. the arena of Apologetics vs. religious examining podcasts, such as Mormon Stories. He carefully clarified the motivations behind each specific discipline and acknowledged the differences. I so appreciated in his introductory comments that he believed that Christ was about reaching out near and far without the boundaries that man is so skilled in building and living within as a protective mechanism. Prof Mason was clearly open to a solid dialog with John D and readily answered John’s questions with great integrity. Thanks to both for a very interesting series of discussion! I personally noted that Margi had a very calming effect on John all the way throughout! Kudos to Margi!! ❣️
I think this is the first time I’ve seen margi cohost (outside of the series she leads) and I have to say it should have been the two of them all along. They work so well together and she has intelligent, thoughtful questions and insights.
Mason is brilliant. We've gotten so far away from civil discourse. We're all human beings like he said It's important to be able to talk to each other about our differences. listen to this whole thing,but I'm very curious to know how he can stay and what his ideas are about why he does.He is sensitive, articulate and knowledgeable! I'm crying., He explained the basis of Non- Orthodox religion!
Some people just love the church so much and/or want it to be true so bad that they’ll cover together the most insane mental framework to make it all fit. They will use tactics to solve one problem that they ignore on another. This is basically lds apologetics in a nutshell. There is such a lack of consistency in how they apply logic that it is laughable. Which happens bc they need it to be true. If your livelihood and whole world revolves around the church being true, you’ll find a way to make it true.
@John Homer I don't believe he's covering he's talking about what he wishes would happen and what he believes in his heart. I've listened to the whole thing now. I don't think he's disingenuous. he's very smart and a very critical thinker which is what needs to be in this world even about religion. I'm Jewish so I have no claim in this fight. I think he explains Orthodox religion very well butI'm not an orthodox Jew either.
As someone who’s left Mormonism , I have identified and empathised with so many interviewees, but I have so much respect for these set of interviews too. Professor Mason you are incredibly well educated, thoughtful, honest and calm through some times where others have chosen aggression or switched off from listening. I love your perspective on transparency! So glad I’ve spent the time hearing you 👍 this is how these conversations need to move, with respect and care on both sides and this is the reason so many of us love Mormon stories, it comes from a place of love and warmth. 💗
These episodes with Patrick Mason are absolutely gold and are emblematic of why Mormon Stories (real stories from real people… faithful to the LDS church or not) is so influential. Well done folks!
Mason is an example of civil discussion. Credit to the host for having him on. The way that Mason keeps the conversation peaceful while still speaking his points is just amazing. I hope one day treat my peers with the same respect as the people in this video.
I’ve had no direct involvement with the LDS church, but I love Mormon stories, and I think it’s good to hear from someone who is still a part of the church, and who has studied its history so deeply. I thoroughly enjoyed part 1 and am looking forward to the subsequent episodes.
At last an opening for our faithful family thinking members to approach if they care about their grandchildrens future. Thank you John and Margi. And you Patrick. 🙏☺️💜🇿🇦🌟
This is the kind of conversation should be normal and regular and also happening in universities, but unfortunately this discourse doesn’t happen commonly. So thank you John, Margie, and Patrick for this awesome civil conversation!
Well, he's changed my opinion after this episode. I wasn't feeling so warmly about Patrick after the first episode, but I do believe he's genuine and honest. I have some of the same criticisms as with anybody in regards to his apologetic arguments, but he seems like an honestly good guy, and anybody like that is ok in my book.
I just heard excuses and side stepping. Using his own chosen 'brand' of mormonism to gloss over the bits that John (rightly) takes wider issue with. I don't think he really answered the difficult questions, he just used the cover all statement that it's not the church he believes he's in. I'd say it's a cop out to pick and choose the flowery fun stuff and just ignore the dirty stuff. In my opinion he is in a privileged position, he's been allowed to openly pick and choose the church doctrine that he feels are safe and fit him and discard the more dangerous topics, now how many every day Mormons get to do that? John said something in this interview that stuck with me - the fact the church publishers allowed him to publish his book through them....yeah like that has no influence on his answers here. Cmon. This guy is the mormon Tom cruise. 😊
I really appreciated Patrick Mason's perspective on problems with the church, why he remains a believer despite the many problems, and his desire for the church to do better and be more Christ-like.
I just can’t thank you all enough for making this interview possible. I am an active member of the church but I also have many questions that unfortunately the church avoids answering. I am glad we were able to ask and to talk about theses things in a respectful way and still learn from one another. Thank you Professor Mason and John. Thank you for your time and services.
I recommend watching the interview with anthropologist Dr Thomas Murphy, especially the one about the Neophyte model (1647), if you cannot watch all three recent episodes 1645-1647.
I’m really enjoying this guy. He’s very aware, intelligent, even brilliant. What I can’t conceive of is his inability to see how illogical his conclusions are. He switches to magical thinking in an instant. The catalyst theory is such a massive stretch- it’s insulting to his intellect to go there in my opinion. Kudos to him for coming on! He handled it beautifully, given the barrage of questions he got hit with. At least he is aware of the problems and didn’t gloss over them. Mostly. Great conversations! Margi is amazing too! Love her❤️
Excellent observations and recap Lila. Like when he doesn't have a theory which can account for all the concepts and scripture in the Book of Mormon, by process of elimination it must have come directly from God.
One other thing, Mr. Mason seems oblivious to the fact that he occupies a very precarious position. The odds that he will get crosswise with the brethren at some point are extremely high given his penchant for speaking openly about these sensitive issues.
Thank you John, Margi, and Patrick for this conversation. I think it is so valuable to hear people who fundamentally disagree have a civil and respectful conversation about why they think/feel the way they do. I think people across the spectrum of belief need to see each other as humans.
seeing this podcast is a breath of fresh air John. I love so much the way you and Patrick and Margi talk with one another with such profound love and acceptance and bring such beauty to a conversation that so readily turns ugly for many. I love this exchange and will be coming back to watch it more in the future as well. I strive daily to become the type of man and member of the church Patrick is and want to never find myself shying away from truly important discussions.
When Patrick was emotional while talking about the pain and problems, it was extremely touching! You can feel his sincere desire for the church to improve and make amends for all the mistakes and harm. Thanks Patrick for discussing these important issues!
I agree with you. It’s just nice to see a member as knowledgeable as him empathizing and feeling the deep harm. He recognizes his privilege and biases AND he’s willing to talk openly which is a step in the right direction in my opinion.
Loooove Margi's questions! Soul searching questions. Love your questions too John! Thanks you both for all you do! You're both are awesome human beings.
John I loved this episode and I’m a full blown atheist. I disagree with a lot of what he said but I love the idea of the exmormon space not being an echo chamber. Patrick seems very cool and genuine. THIS IS GOOD STUFF.
Thank you so much Patrick Mason for doing this! Thank you John and Margi! This is an amazing set of episodes so far. Patrick said so much in between the lines at the point in the interview when things got emotional. I am a white male born in the Covenant and have stepped away from the faith because of the hurt it causes others.
John Dehlin, I am a believing LDS soul, and I enjoy your discussions because you have a real interest in people and how they think. Your interest in their stories, problems, and challenges is sincere. Jesus told us to bear each other’s burdens and it is important that we do so.
@@randyjordan5521 Well, you're delusional, and also don't understand logic very well, so in my opinion the argument was already won and my point was proven, thanks!
Ooh the polygamy question was intense! I have a big problem with God using sexual abusers as prophets. This conflicts with so many LDS teachings of "obedience bringing forth blessings". We don't know for sure if Joseph Smith was a sexual predator, but it's so icky that we are attempting to justify Joseph if it's true! Thanks Patrick for coming on. This discussion is important.
This is my new favorite episode! Patrick's vulnerability, humanity, sincerity, openness and knowledge are all on display. This was a fantastic example of believers and non-believers respectfully and lovingly discussing differences. Such a healing episode. I have learned much and have a lot to think about as the episode wraps. An absolute triumph of love & respect!
There is a class at LDS Business College that thought me a lot of these things and I was shocked. It is called Foundations of the Restoration and it is a cornerstone class. I believe it is still being taught at Ensign college. That was the first time EVER I learned about Joseph Smith marrying women that was already married with other brothers and also marrying mother and daughters, and marrying minors, and marrying some for life and some just for eternity, etc… I took this class back in 2015. I was an international student and I have NEVER heard anything like this in Brasil. I also remember learning in this religious class about The Mountain Meadows Massacre and the discrepancies in the different accounts of the first vision. Once again, I was shocked to learn all of that. I wish more people could have access to it, specially in Brasil (the country that I came from). 🇧🇷 Thank you for this interview. I have learned much more.
That’s what I got out of Patrick’s thoughts also. That is impossible for me to do. I simply cannot be a Mormon like that. Patrick is not an apologist for the church at all, he disagrees with a lot of the things the Church does, yet for some reason he still believes in it.
Well, in 2:27:00 he acknowledged that Joseph didn't translate the Book of Mormon in the conventional sense, but basically that he wrote an inspired novel, or a "Midrash", I e. an interpretation of the Bible. But is it plausible that any of Joseph's writing are more than his personal interpretation of things, including his errors with respect to the origin of Native Americans, etc.? Thomas Murphy's interpretation seems most plausible to me: Joseph Smith wrote a book to convert Native Americans to Christianity by making their history a Jewish - Christian one. Everything else is first of all not consistent with the book (e.g. his abandonment of the Trinity, the Masonic rituals, etc.) and does also not follow from the original narrative. It makes no sense to send missionaries to Europe or Africa when the book of Mormon is an origin story of Native Americans.
@@charlesmendeley9823 exactly. It was never taught to me that the Book of Mormon was anything other than a translation of the Plates. Changing the meaning of the word translation goes against everything I have known and built my testimony on.
Fantastic series. John & OSF team this was SO GOOD!! I’m a never-mo who has listened to Mormon Stories since 2020 weekly and this was fascinating & a much needed episode. I was seriously on the edge of my seat the entire time hearing what Mason had to say to your questions John, and was excited to see what questions you would ask. This was seriously a treat
This interview was a true balm to my soul. I just loved this interview and am so grateful for Dr. Mason taking the time and risk to come on Mormon Stories. Put me down as picking up a copy of Restoration.
Best interview I’ve ever seen on this podcast. Really love the dialogue between the three of you. I wish more Mormons could be as thoughtful and loving as Patrick Mason. I admire the courage he has shown by coming on the show to discuss these really serious issues.
This is an awesome humble, honest, and sincere man. Thank you so much for all of your answers, comments, and questions. Thank u for having the courage to come onto this podcast and help me (I can only speak for me) have a softer heart toward LDS people. I know there are good people in your church, u being one of them, but I have been a little hard hearted toward your church and some of the people. I feel a real love for you. Thank you.
What a brilliant display of coming together with peaceful, thoughtful respect for a discussion about items that are sometimes difficult and contentious. I am so impressed with Dr. Patrick Mason. Thank you.
I felt what I will call Maven's justified indignation TO THE CORE in her question read by John (Patrick starts to reply to it at approximately 2:37:58). Thank you Maven for posing it. Your comments and questions are always on point. Your presence in the Mormon podcasting sphere is a huge asset.
Great interview, very appreciated to Prof. Mason for being honest and open to coming on as well as being empathetic to all sides. Major, Major props! Personally, I found his responses more like "I believe because I choose to believe", knowing everything he knows. And to be clear, I respect that very much and there is nothing wrong with that. I, however, can't do that and that's my personal decision. Lots of members and apologists completely deny any of these issues all together and will not discuss at all or make some argument that is dismissive. Everybody should know the issues and get to decide themselves. That's it.... This means the church and it's leaders being honest and not withholding information.
Patrick Mason is right in that historians cannot determine whether Jesus rose from the grave. But scholars can determine whether the Book of Mormon is an ancient record or a product of the 19th century, and scientists can examine whether the culture of the Nephites and Lamanites fits into real world history of a) Jewish culture and b) native American culture.
Wow. So many wows in this episode. Patrick is kind, respectful and eloquent. Kudos to him for not only being brave enough to come on Mormon Stories, but for sharing his beliefs unapologetically and at the same time being able to understand why so many of us feel the way we do and why we left, without judgment or condemnation. Both sides were very civil and respectful. I hope the church is listening and takes what he said to heart. I still have a hard time understanding how anyone who knows as much as he does can reconcile it all and stay true to the faith, but if it works for him then I'm happy for him. And thanks to John and Margi for letting him turn the tables and ask them some uncomfortable questions as well.
I really appreciate you two doing this, and my honest opinion is that this is excactly what is needed more. Instead of talking to no critics and claiming that no apology or excuse will ever come from the church, this, to me, is the most Christlike apporach. I always felt that true leadership does not just mean to only excercise authority with love, gentlenss, kindness and meekness, but also with a humble heart that welcomes every question, every concern, every reality of individual people, and talk about it in a spirit of love. Surely there would be some members that would be offended if the leadership would act that way, but if so, than only for quesionable reasons.. I can see absolutely no reason why a honest, sincere, humble and respectfull conversion, just as you two had, could in any way be wrong.. rather the opposite, it would open the doors to healing on so many levels. To me the podcast I loved the very most so far.
If only the LDS church as a whole could be more like Patrick Mason and Dr. Julie Hanks! I would have been able to stay... I can't put the toothpaste back into the tube now, but I'm always happy to see healthier attitudes growing within the church. The people staying in need that!
After thinking about this interview a little more I got pretty fired up. Patrick says that he doesn't see any cult-like behavior in his own ward but he is egregiously and sadly wrong. Every single day young girls are being taught that their primary purpose and greatest value is that of a mother in the home and having and raising as many children as they possibly can. Young boys are being told that they have no choice but to serve a mission just because they were baptized when they were 8 years old under extreme emotional and social pressure. There are no programs in the church that encourage young people to truly examine themselves and to take the time to find out who they are and to become emotionally mature and financially secure before taking on the responsibilities of a family or maybe not having a family at all if it turns out they are not suited to it. These young people are having their personalities neutered at a very young age in order to fit them into a very narrow definition of what is acceptable within the context of the church with no concern for what their personalities, talents and interests might be if they were allowed to develop normally. This is cult behavior 101. I could go on with a million examples of thought stopping behaviors that are woven into every lesson and talk. I could talk about how people who leave the church are talked about like they are somehow flawed or evil and how the young people are told that there is nothing for them but pain, loneliness and misery outside of the church if they were ever to leave. These things come straight from the top and are integral to the function of every ward in the church, including yours Dr. Mason. To deny any of that is truly putting your head in the sand. The reason you don't see this as cult behavior is because it is the water you swim in, the air you breathe everyday of your existence in the church. You seem to be a thoughtful person but you need to let the bare facts speak for themselves and you need to accept the logical conclusions of those facts.
I totally agree Eric. I can’t help to think he’s in denial. He’s looking through rose colored glasses. I am saddened he doesn’t see or accept the truth of this cult.
Yep! He’s swimming in the sea of LDS! I’m hoping that one of his children see the truth of how corrupt this institution is. It brainwashed its members! My daughter BF(we’re Christian not LDS) is serving his mission. I read his emails. He’s getting brainwashed! 🥲
I thought Mr Mason would have some more insights and answers concerning doctrine, history, prophets and staying in the church. But at the end of the day it's kind of the some 'ol same 'ol ---- the hoops he has to jump through to make it work remains a bridge to far for me.
Very intriguing. I took the class he teaches from USU ten years ago. It seems this guest's perspective would deepen your opinion no matter what side of the line you are on.
I've got a lot to say... and I don't have to be as tactful as John is. John's "Meta" Question: "Why isn't there a public course, published by you or somebody else, that just takes questioning Mormons through... Mormon intellectual history? Why aren't faithful Mormon scholars writing rebuttals to the CES letter, MormonThink, etc.,... (that) lays out the factual history. ... Why haven't you written that book... What's more important than the loss of faith? What more important work could be done...(than) to try and provide better answers to questioning Mormons? Why hasn't that been done yet; it's 2022!" (1:57:37) Answer from fully tenured, doctorate-level, Mormon Historian Professor: "I-I-I'm just not interested... again, just personally... I'm just not interest... In a world where life is short and I've only got so many hours in a day... that's not where I've chosen to spend my energy" (2:04:38) *???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* Imagine a fully tenured professor in ANY other historical or scientific field expressing such an attitude of disinterest and flippancy toward their CHOSEN field of study and expertise! And all after just rhapsodizing on and on about how important he thinks Church history is to his own claimed "faith" (about which he claims, despite being a historian, to have never had cause for a crisis). This right there proves exactly what John had attempted to point out earlier and that this man denied: This guy does have an agenda and a pronounced bias preventing him from scientifically and historically examining Church history in any objective manner... hence why he remains so flippant and disinterested; because he can't permit any such objective scientific review. For if he were to permit it... he would be inextricably forced into the very crisis of faith he so strangely prides himself for never having experienced. (Frankly, I feel this is a lie, also.) And kudos to you, John, for so diplomatically yet also so doggedly calling this charlatan out on such contradictory professional flippancy (2:04:59). Thank you for tactfully and politely skewering him for his blatant disingenuousness in pooh-poohing Church History away when, both for him as a "Professor of Religious Studies & History" as well as for ANYONE else in the Church truly seeking REAL Truth and Knowledge, there is nothing more important! And while such apathy would be tragic in any other Mormon, yet it is absolutely shocking and unforgivable to encounter in a fully tenured, degreed, professional Mormon historian professor. Especially one who has just primped and preened himself before your audience as a professional historian for his knowledge and experience in applying historical objectivity and academic acumen to historical research. And yet... all he proves throughout this series is his penchant for exploiting his academic credentials to commit the Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Authority in his defense of the Church, while also writing nothing but faith-promoting books entirely devoid of the very historical objectivity and scientific scrutiny he claims to exhibit and champion. After hearing his complete dismissal as unimportant to him the very academic examination and review of Church history he claims as his professional and chosen field of study, I just lost all respect for this "professor." The only thing this man is blatantly "professor" of ... is Church propaganda.
I greatly appreciate Patrick’s willingness to come on Mormon Stories Podcast. I learned a lot from his experience. I was excited to hear how someone so knowledgeable in the Mormon church and its history can stay a faithful Mormon. While I appreciate Patrick seeing both sides of all issues and questions presented to him, I was disappointed during “lighting rounds” toward the end. How Patrick makes sense of polyandry and polygamy to me sounded like cherry picking. This gives me a sense of “he’s trying too hard”. The true Church of Christ on the Earth shouldn’t have these issues, especially when it claims it was directly revealed from God to His prophet, Joseph Smith. At best, Jospeh Smith was a prophet of God who was lead astray pretty early on in his ministry.
I thought I had many friends as a Mormon. When I decided no longer to attend the church, I discovered that I had one actual friend. The rest were just fellow-travellers. I never said a single word against the church or tried in any way to influence anybody, but I was shunned. Patrick, who strikes me as particularly humble in the way he speaks, may actually have many genuine friends who just happen to be Mormon. That would be a gift. I think Patrick nails it in his response to you, that he is not a fundamentalist when it comes to scripture. We all pick and choose and it’s naive to assume you have to take the whole package or nothing. I was of his view and have just as many university degrees as he has if not more. I never had a spiritual crisis in the sense you and many of your listeners have had. I left the church because, as applicable to me, it failed in its central premise, that it was the fulfilment of man’s quest for happiness. The day I realised that it wasn’t that for me was the day I quit.
At 2:27:50. Patrick is very clever how he explains translation as inspiration or revelation. He admits Joseph Smith using a top hat and seer stone with no plates in front of him is not a proper translation. He neglects to discuss how members were pointed for generations to the Urim and Thummin and breastplate (see History of the Church, volume 1). This was taught as the sole method of translation along with two scribes (Harris and Cowdery). It is only recently that the church has admitted to a top hat and seer stone theory. Scribes also included people other than Harris or Cowdery, including Emma Smith and Whitmer. See the July 1993 issue of Ensign magazine where then Elder Nelson briefly discusses this (A Treasured Testament). It is only recently that the church website talks about a top hat and seer stone along with a video in 2018.
When he says that our top leaders are not theologians, he's *technically* correct. However, in light of the fact that the leaders are revered as "prophets, seers and revelators," I would argue that this makes them even higher than a trained theologian, and precisely who the members are counseled to look to for our theology.
Cult like behavior? Fear of questioning authority? Blind obedience? Fear of retribution? Willing to engage in violence? Ideas set in concrete that people cannot overcome?
Patrick is a good person with a good heart. However, it seems apparent to me that he is actively choosing to make the church be true, rather than analyzing what makes most sense. I was this way until I got burnt out enough to conceptualize the idea that it would be ok if it wasn’t. Then I started to analyze the history impartially. I don’t think Patrick’s takes on church history are reasonable, let alone believable. He admits there are problems but doesn’t allow the horrific history of the truth get in the way of what he feels he needs to believe. It makes no sense that the Old Testament is fiction, but maybe part of the BOM is but part isn’t, and it doesn’t matter whether there were physical plates or whether Joseph translated and what he said or what he revealed go’s saying about him and it also is ridiculous that you can pick and choose that certain things are from god but others like section 132 and polygamy aren’t. It just doesn’t follow, unless you just simply want to believe despite not having a logical reason to. I’ve always been waiting on any reasonable explanation of the problems with the church’s history and this is basically the last straw for me holding out hope not that it’s true, but that there could be a reasonable explanation of nuanced believe that is coherent and makes logical sense without embarrassment mental gymnastics.
For those that still believe in the church, he should be the next prophet. Even though he still believe in the non sense foundation of the church (Joseph S. and the book that JS wrote), he's more Christ like than all the prophets combined. What a great soul.
2:45:00 he mentions about how God works through deeply flawed men. Interesting thing is, that whoever it seems God is working through, these men get an extensive amount of privilege with it. So God can chose to use any flawed human to restore his church, someone who maybe has a minor personality flaw. But instead he chose a man who used his position to coerce women and children into marriages, extort people out of money and property, become the ultimate source of authority for a church and a city, to name a few. If God is all knowing, all powerful, all loving, why not chose someone who had a little bit more of a moral compass? Why JS? Why the current prophet or even the 15? They all benefit from privilege now, being on boards of corporations, receive large stipends, and not only get admiration of members, but can even demand it. God using imperfect people to carry his work seems like a justification for corrupt behaviours and not something a loving and all knowing God should expect or chose.
You nailed it Greg Hess. I believe Patrick is sincere but for me this approach just doesn’t work. Putting trust in a “prophet” of this nature becomes indistinguishable from just picking a random person who happens to be preaching stuff that you like and agree with. There is zero evidence that Russel Nelson is led by God in any significant way, especially compared to the thousands or millions of people who have way more Christlike love and empathy than Nelson has shown toward humankind. So at that point it’s just silly to call him any more a prophet than some other corner preacher. The only difference between these two is that one of them is actually arrogant enough to claim he’s a prophet.
I have often found that some of the most dynamic human beings tend to have flawed outcomes, perhaps the unique strengths they are endowed with also make them vulberable in specific ways. Who is to say that God couldn’t have chosen anyone but Joseph? Either he was or was not a prophet, but many in history have done things if true wonderment, while also falling prey to tendencies not aligned with the good they have done. I dont think anyone else could have done what he did… for all he was, it was his assignment to bring the church out of obscurity. Great comments… honorable discussion.
To pretty much every specific historical question John asks, pointing out the documented accounts (e.g., 2:20:00), Dr. Mason responds with dissembling variations of: We don't know; we weren't there...but this is what I believe... (?!) How is this the least historically justified on any scientific or academic level? He "knows" the Church is true, the "Restoration" (title of his faith-promoting, blatantly non-scientific book plugged here) is real, and Joseph Smith was a real prophet translating by revelation ... and all while categorically denying as possible any Occam's Razor logic that he might just have made it all up. Oh, and while he "knows" the Gold Plates were real as were all of Joseph's "revelations," yet he was forced to admit polygamy, polyandry, adultery, underage sex, were not... even though Joseph claimed they ALL were, thus obviously lying about at least some of them. But still, to this fully tenured, doctorate-level, professor of history, Joseph was a true prophet of God! Don't know whether to laugh or cry. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.
At 2:31:17. The Golden Plates. Patrick asks did Joseph actually make them or were they a Nephite record? This is unusual to hear this much honesty from an LDS public intellectual. He also dismisses apologists who use "parallels" and says parallels are not evidence.
I think people like Dr Mason may resist long lists of LDS validity claims because they know they can’t be answered without twisting logical thinking into a pretzel of unreality or remaking the church completely into something it isn’t. Unfortunately LDS thought never seems to be able to just strip things down to the roots. It always has to add endless strata of complexity to events that aren’t really that complex. And it creates a grand exemption for the church as far as reason is concerned where it applies heavy scrutiny to other ideologies. Simple yes or no questions simply refute the history so they must be avoided. It’s such a heavy weight to carry.
Retention in the church at 0:22:00. I am working on a project now which addresses this problem. The church will often use membership numbers, but never publishes formal activity rates. The two real numbers that are important are retention rates for converts and retention rates for existing members. Activity rates are also related. The numbers have been visibly down for more than a decade. There is also a social demography issue in that members have fewer children and many members never have children. This will create visible problems in the next generation. It may have some bearing today in seeing fewer active people available to serve missions. The other problem which is the church is aware of is declining activity among youth and YSA members. If they fail to stay active, they don't serve missions. They then fail to marry in the temple. And temple marriage is a big predictor of activity in the church, especially when the couple has kids.
To say " Go ahead and question, that's fine. " This is not an adequate answer. Mason is likable , but his answers don't cover the awful mess , the crazy illogical heresy which is Mormonism.
Finally a man who speaks his truth while acknowledging the issues the Church has with everything we all struggle with. John you are right, Prof Mason is doing the job the top echelon should be doing. How did this giant corporation get so far removed from the simple loving humanity of Christs ministry on earth? I often wonder what He would make of all this
John's stats at 0:38:24. Pretty accurate and not surprising. YSA members are in decline as are the youth. A source in the church told me recently early return from mission rates are a concern. Many early returns are due to mental health and stress concerns experienced by missionaries. And a significant amount of youth are not interested in serving missions.
Mason seems genuine and I enjoyed part 1 but part 2 seems very confusing. He points out all the things he does not agree with in the church but says he NEVER has had doubts? Makes no sense to me. As a non member I think I can look at this fairly objectively. I feel like his shelf is cracking.
Ilk really made me giggle. At 2:19, I saw real vulnerability and maybe some pain, and knew that this guy is absolutely as straight with us as he can, on both what he KNOWS and what he BELIEVES personally. Should you ever read this, Dr. Mason, thank you. Sincerely.
Wow! I appreciate that Mason showed up for Mormon stories, but things really fell apart for him in this second segment. He's clearly a sincere guy, but he really does not provide any satisfying answers to John's questions. His defense of the Book of Mormon while accepting that the Old Testament was myth was astounding. The Old Testament is thousands of years older and has much more evidence for it's historical reliability than the Book of Mormon.
Summary: I like the Church and want it to be true because it's been good in my life. Therefor I simply choose to believe despite the overwhelming evidence it is false. Oh, and I ignore the stuff I don't like. LOL
I loved and appreciated Margi's question, a true highlight in this interview. And Patrick, respect man, I honestly couldn't do as many mental gymnastics with it all and had been easier for me to have spirituality also in an agnostic way outside of any organized religion, but I believe every organization needs a person like you on it.
John, I can’t see that this guy really answered your most heart felt questions! Never heard so much ummm, ummm,ummmm! For being a true and and faithful member even I am left scratching my head! Think it was kind of pick and choose on his part! Boy I’d love to have a one on one! Have to say I was impressed with your additude and demeanor today! I do agree with his ideas that he is committed to it being the Church of Christ! Not the church of Joseph Smith or even Pres Nelson therefore let’s try to make it work better for all of us but it’s either the Church of Jesus Christ or not!That we have to come to an agreement on this point is all important ! If it has errors , which it does let’s get behind its being his church or not and let’s go for wood! If Christ had that much money he would find some way to use it to reach out and touch his children’s lives - temples necessary of course but not become a Biden and make society less functional because of handouts! Job creation, like have the homeless built homes! Teach them a trade! Lots of fun things to do! I did get a bit of better understanding of his picking scripture due to his belief if it’s Christ like or not! But again Iam a bit scattered by his various explanation! If god put a mark on Cain so others would know the neg they would get from harming him is that racist? I’ve wandered around here! What is our gender ideas? Lots of thinking ? Are we supposed to decide what a prophet is and does! Can see why your scratching your head!
What Patrick says will be recorded but everyone has a right to change their mind over time as they learn and grow. I'll also add that if John Dehlin decided to go back to church because he was convinced that it was the true church as it claims to be, I would not judge him or be made at him for that transition.
Patrick Mason is by far my favourite member of the LDS church ! He knows and understands the church on a level that the leaders and membership need to strive for! 😎🤙🇨🇦
John, like many of your listeners I am a nevermo who has been absolutely fascinated by the stories you highlight. Over the past year I have listened to hundreds of hours of Mormon stories and have cried hearing the pain some have gone through, felt angry at the institutional flaws within the church, but also been awed at the beauty people have found within the church and in life after it.
In this interview it was amazing to hear two well intentioned people with genuine, deep seated disagreements able to communicate with civility and empathy for one another. It honestly makes me feel better about the world in these divided times.
Thank you for all of the hard work you do, John. Your passion is infectious and makes me want to be a better person to also contribute to the world in the way that I can.
🙏❤️
@@randyjordan5521 John's a busy guy but I just came across the answer to you question in my listening. The discussion begins around @2:33:50 and Patrick says he does not believe polygamy is a divinely revealed principle @2:35:09.
Edit. He's not committed to it as a hard truth.
What a GREAT conversation of two amazing men who respect each other and understand each other. I love how John was genuinely touched by different prospectives Patrick explained to him. Loved every moment.
I so very much appreciate Professor Mason for coming onto Mormon Stories and sharing his perspective. While I do not share his conclusions regarding remaining in the Church--he is very forthright and honest about the issues the Church is facing. With all sincerity, I hope that the Church can one day mirror the ideal of what he expressed it can and should be.
He’s a cult follower. I mean, he’s Mormon.
0p
A testament to the good work John is doing can be seen in interviews like this. He's respectful, curious, and open to correction. An equal testament to Patrick is his willingness to have a conversation. This is how bridges are built. The church is still untrue - but goodness is can be found in our attempts at truthful dialogue.
Well said and I completely agree. It’s so difficult to have dialogue like this.
I’m a hardened atheist and almost didn’t click to watch Patrick’s interview because I love listening to faith journey/transition/exmo stuff but I’m so glad I did. What a good-faith conversation, the world need more of these.
Credit to Patrick for coming on and answering all of the tough questions. It has been a really good and edifying discussion, John has done well asking the tough questions but in a way that is respectful and not divisive. I admire Patrick's faith, but his integrity to not always try to defend the church and Joseph Smith when he thinks they're in the wrong such as with past racist teachings, the church's wealth or sexual abuse! I personally think we need more people like Patrick, who shows empathy and understanding and is willing to have a dialogue! He comes across genuine and sincere in his faith in Christ. We need more faithful voices to come onto the podcast to bridge gaps
What a fascinating human being. To be an active, fully engaged Mormon, and to be 100% aware and okay with garbage being mixed all through your scriptures and things your modern church leaders are saying without any indication of when it's from God or not, and for "God works in strange ways" to be your explanation for why you stay... Fascinating. I'm glad he acknowledged that some would say that's an awfully weird way for a God to act. That's me for dang sure!
You mean for DAMN sure. Don’t limit the words your mouth makes because a book 200 years old says swearing is bad.
Powerful emotionally touching moments, Patrick shared was an EPIC end to his amazing interview. This was one of theee best interviews.
Dr. Mason…….please do not have a “vulnerability hangover”! Thank you so much for being so incredibly authentic. Fantastic!
These past two episodes with Patrick have been absolutely incredible. I have been taught, fed and moved beyond anything I could have imagined. I look forward to the next episode where he is able to ask John and Margi questions. What an uplifting, enlightening and tender expression of belief and experience. Thanks to all.
Thank you so much for a beautiful conversation. I am wowed by Dr. Mason's answers and his ability to look outside the framework box of fundamental church teachings.
Patrick Mason is a rock star in my opinion for providing great clarity of the differences between the academic study of religions and specifically Mormonism, vs. the arena of Apologetics vs. religious examining podcasts, such as Mormon Stories. He carefully clarified the motivations behind each specific discipline and acknowledged the differences. I so appreciated in his introductory comments that he believed that Christ was about reaching out near and far without the boundaries that man is so skilled in building and living within as a protective mechanism. Prof Mason was clearly open to a solid dialog with John D and readily answered John’s questions with great integrity. Thanks to both for a very interesting series of discussion! I personally noted that Margi had a very calming effect on John all the way throughout! Kudos to Margi!! ❣️
I think this is the first time I’ve seen margi cohost (outside of the series she leads) and I have to say it should have been the two of them all along. They work so well together and she has intelligent, thoughtful questions and insights.
Mason is brilliant. We've gotten so far away from civil discourse. We're all human beings like he said It's important to be able to talk to each other about our differences. listen to this whole thing,but I'm very curious to know how he can stay and what his ideas are about why he does.He is sensitive, articulate and knowledgeable! I'm crying., He explained the basis of Non- Orthodox religion!
Some people just love the church so much and/or want it to be true so bad that they’ll cover together the most insane mental framework to make it all fit. They will use tactics to solve one problem that they ignore on another. This is basically lds apologetics in a nutshell. There is such a lack of consistency in how they apply logic that it is laughable. Which happens bc they need it to be true. If your livelihood and whole world revolves around the church being true, you’ll find a way to make it true.
@John Homer I don't believe he's covering he's talking about what he wishes would happen and what he believes in his heart. I've listened to the whole thing now. I don't think he's disingenuous. he's very smart and a very critical thinker which is what needs to be in this world even about religion. I'm Jewish so I have no claim in this fight. I think he explains Orthodox religion very well butI'm not an orthodox Jew either.
As someone who’s left Mormonism , I have identified and empathised with so many interviewees, but I have so much respect for these set of interviews too. Professor Mason you are incredibly well educated, thoughtful, honest and calm through some times where others have chosen aggression or switched off from listening. I love your perspective on transparency! So glad I’ve spent the time hearing you 👍 this is how these conversations need to move, with respect and care on both sides and this is the reason so many of us love Mormon stories, it comes from a place of love and warmth. 💗
These episodes with Patrick Mason are absolutely gold and are emblematic of why Mormon Stories (real stories from real people… faithful to the LDS church or not) is so influential.
Well done folks!
Mason is an example of civil discussion. Credit to the host for having him on. The way that Mason keeps the conversation peaceful while still speaking his points is just amazing. I hope one day treat my peers with the same respect as the people in this video.
I’ve had no direct involvement with the LDS church, but I love Mormon stories, and I think it’s good to hear from someone who is still a part of the church, and who has studied its history so deeply. I thoroughly enjoyed part 1 and am looking forward to the subsequent episodes.
At last an opening for our faithful family thinking members to approach if they care about their grandchildrens future. Thank you John and Margi. And you Patrick. 🙏☺️💜🇿🇦🌟
This is the kind of conversation should be normal and regular and also happening in universities, but unfortunately this discourse doesn’t happen commonly. So thank you John, Margie, and Patrick for this awesome civil conversation!
Thank you for a very civil and supportive discussion! Hard topics in hard emotional spaces, but this was great! Thank you, Patrick, John, and Margi!
Well, he's changed my opinion after this episode. I wasn't feeling so warmly about Patrick after the first episode, but I do believe he's genuine and honest. I have some of the same criticisms as with anybody in regards to his apologetic arguments, but he seems like an honestly good guy, and anybody like that is ok in my book.
I just heard excuses and side stepping. Using his own chosen 'brand' of mormonism to gloss over the bits that John (rightly) takes wider issue with. I don't think he really answered the difficult questions, he just used the cover all statement that it's not the church he believes he's in. I'd say it's a cop out to pick and choose the flowery fun stuff and just ignore the dirty stuff. In my opinion he is in a privileged position, he's been allowed to openly pick and choose the church doctrine that he feels are safe and fit him and discard the more dangerous topics, now how many every day Mormons get to do that?
John said something in this interview that stuck with me - the fact the church publishers allowed him to publish his book through them....yeah like that has no influence on his answers here. Cmon. This guy is the mormon Tom cruise. 😊
I really appreciated Patrick Mason's perspective on problems with the church, why he remains a believer despite the many problems, and his desire for the church to do better and be more Christ-like.
TBM or not, you have to agree that Patrick’s heart is in the right place. Thank you for coming onto Mormon Stories, Patrick.
I just can’t thank you all enough for making this interview possible. I am an active member of the church but I also have many questions that unfortunately the church avoids answering. I am glad we were able to ask and to talk about theses things in a respectful way and still learn from one another. Thank you Professor Mason and John. Thank you for your time and services.
I recommend watching the interview with anthropologist Dr Thomas Murphy, especially the one about the Neophyte model (1647), if you cannot watch all three recent episodes 1645-1647.
My respect for both of these men just went through the roof. People who disagree so profoundly having a respectful conversation.
I’m really enjoying this guy. He’s very aware, intelligent, even brilliant. What I can’t conceive of is his inability to see how illogical his conclusions are. He switches to magical thinking in an instant. The catalyst theory is such a massive stretch- it’s insulting to his intellect to go there in my opinion. Kudos to him for coming on! He handled it beautifully, given the barrage of questions he got hit with. At least he is aware of the problems and didn’t gloss over them. Mostly. Great conversations! Margi is amazing too! Love her❤️
Excellent observations and recap Lila. Like when he doesn't have a theory which can account for all the concepts and scripture in the Book of Mormon, by process of elimination it must have come directly from God.
One other thing, Mr. Mason seems oblivious to the fact that he occupies a very precarious position. The odds that he will get crosswise with the brethren at some point are extremely high given his penchant for speaking openly about these sensitive issues.
Thank you John, Margi, and Patrick for this conversation. I think it is so valuable to hear people who fundamentally disagree have a civil and respectful conversation about why they think/feel the way they do. I think people across the spectrum of belief need to see each other as humans.
seeing this podcast is a breath of fresh air John. I love so much the way you and Patrick and Margi talk with one another with such profound love and acceptance and bring such beauty to a conversation that so readily turns ugly for many. I love this exchange and will be coming back to watch it more in the future as well. I strive daily to become the type of man and member of the church Patrick is and want to never find myself shying away from truly important discussions.
When Patrick was emotional while talking about the pain and problems, it was extremely touching! You can feel his sincere desire for the church to improve and make amends for all the mistakes and harm. Thanks Patrick for discussing these important issues!
The Church can't make amends. Too late for many people and the harm continues and people like Patrick are complicit in the harm.
I agree with you. It’s just nice to see a member as knowledgeable as him empathizing and feeling the deep harm. He recognizes his privilege and biases AND he’s willing to talk openly which is a step in the right direction in my opinion.
Loooove Margi's questions! Soul searching questions. Love your questions too John! Thanks you both for all you do! You're both are awesome human beings.
John I loved this episode and I’m a full blown atheist. I disagree with a lot of what he said but I love the idea of the exmormon space not being an echo chamber. Patrick seems very cool and genuine. THIS IS GOOD STUFF.
Thank you so much Patrick Mason for doing this! Thank you John and Margi! This is an amazing set of episodes so far. Patrick said so much in between the lines at the point in the interview when things got emotional. I am a white male born in the Covenant and have stepped away from the faith because of the hurt it causes others.
John Dehlin, I am a believing LDS soul, and I enjoy your discussions because you have a real interest in people and how they think. Your interest in their stories, problems, and challenges is sincere. Jesus told us to bear each other’s burdens and it is important that we do so.
@@randyjordan5521 How do you feel about living in a country that killed 1,000,000 Iraqis in the last 2 decades?
@@randyjordan5521 Well, you're delusional, and also don't understand logic very well, so in my opinion the argument was already won and my point was proven, thanks!
Ooh the polygamy question was intense! I have a big problem with God using sexual abusers as prophets. This conflicts with so many LDS teachings of "obedience bringing forth blessings". We don't know for sure if Joseph Smith was a sexual predator, but it's so icky that we are attempting to justify Joseph if it's true! Thanks Patrick for coming on. This discussion is important.
And by their fruits ye shall know them
@@randinboise exactly what I was going to say
This is my new favorite episode! Patrick's vulnerability, humanity, sincerity, openness and knowledge are all on display. This was a fantastic example of believers and non-believers respectfully and lovingly discussing differences. Such a healing episode. I have learned much and have a lot to think about as the episode wraps. An absolute triumph of love & respect!
There is a class at LDS Business College that thought me a lot of these things and I was shocked. It is called Foundations of the Restoration and it is a cornerstone class. I believe it is still being taught at Ensign college. That was the first time EVER I learned about Joseph Smith marrying women that was already married with other brothers and also marrying mother and daughters, and marrying minors, and marrying some for life and some just for eternity, etc… I took this class back in 2015. I was an international student and I have NEVER heard anything like this in Brasil. I also remember learning in this religious class about The Mountain Meadows Massacre and the discrepancies in the different accounts of the first vision. Once again, I was shocked to learn all of that. I wish more people could have access to it, specially in Brasil (the country that I came from). 🇧🇷
Thank you for this interview. I have learned much more.
So basically if we change everything we have learned in our life in the church and completely change the meaning of words, it all makes sense! Got it.
That’s what I got out of Patrick’s thoughts also. That is impossible for me to do. I simply cannot be a Mormon like that. Patrick is not an apologist for the church at all, he disagrees with a lot of the things the Church does, yet for some reason he still believes in it.
Well, in 2:27:00 he acknowledged that Joseph didn't translate the Book of Mormon in the conventional sense, but basically that he wrote an inspired novel, or a "Midrash", I e. an interpretation of the Bible. But is it plausible that any of Joseph's writing are more than his personal interpretation of things, including his errors with respect to the origin of Native Americans, etc.? Thomas Murphy's interpretation seems most plausible to me: Joseph Smith wrote a book to convert Native Americans to Christianity by making their history a Jewish - Christian one. Everything else is first of all not consistent with the book (e.g. his abandonment of the Trinity, the Masonic rituals, etc.) and does also not follow from the original narrative. It makes no sense to send missionaries to Europe or Africa when the book of Mormon is an origin story of Native Americans.
@@rodneyhuckaby8716 He still believes it because it's his job. He paychecks rely on his faith in the crazy church.
@@charlesmendeley9823 exactly. It was never taught to me that the Book of Mormon was anything other than a translation of the Plates. Changing the meaning of the word translation goes against everything I have known and built my testimony on.
It's all really sophisticated. Only an uneducated buffoon would call a spade a spade.
I'm a post-mormon, but loving this series.....thanks Mormon Stories and Patrick Mason for your insight!
I love this discussion! I truly appreciated Patrick's take on God and human imperfection.
Patrick Mason is awesome for being on the show.
Fantastic series. John & OSF team this was SO GOOD!! I’m a never-mo who has listened to Mormon Stories since 2020 weekly and this was fascinating & a much needed episode. I was seriously on the edge of my seat the entire time hearing what Mason had to say to your questions John, and was excited to see what questions you would ask. This was seriously a treat
This interview was a true balm to my soul. I just loved this interview and am so grateful for Dr. Mason taking the time and risk to come on Mormon Stories. Put me down as picking up a copy of Restoration.
This was a very respectful and informative dialogue. We need more of this. Thanks.
This was great. Really enjoyed this conversation.
Best interview I’ve ever seen on this podcast. Really love the dialogue between the three of you. I wish more Mormons could be as thoughtful and loving as Patrick Mason. I admire the courage he has shown by coming on the show to discuss these really serious issues.
I applaud mason for coming on👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
This is an awesome humble, honest, and sincere man. Thank you so much for all of your answers, comments, and questions. Thank u for having the courage to come onto this podcast and help me (I can only speak for me) have a softer heart toward LDS people. I know there are good people in your church, u being one of them, but I have been a little hard hearted toward your church and some of the people. I feel a real love for you. Thank you.
I loved Margie’s question, it gets at the heart of things. Great work!
What a brilliant display of coming together with peaceful, thoughtful respect for a discussion about items that are sometimes difficult and contentious. I am so impressed with Dr. Patrick Mason. Thank you.
I felt what I will call Maven's justified indignation TO THE CORE in her question read by John (Patrick starts to reply to it at approximately 2:37:58). Thank you Maven for posing it. Your comments and questions are always on point. Your presence in the Mormon podcasting sphere is a huge asset.
Great interview, very appreciated to Prof. Mason for being honest and open to coming on as well as being empathetic to all sides. Major, Major props! Personally, I found his responses more like "I believe because I choose to believe", knowing everything he knows. And to be clear, I respect that very much and there is nothing wrong with that. I, however, can't do that and that's my personal decision. Lots of members and apologists completely deny any of these issues all together and will not discuss at all or make some argument that is dismissive. Everybody should know the issues and get to decide themselves. That's it.... This means the church and it's leaders being honest and not withholding information.
Great model of having a discussion from opposing viewpoints. Thank you!
Patrick Mason is right in that historians cannot determine whether Jesus rose from the grave. But scholars can determine whether the Book of Mormon is an ancient record or a product of the 19th century, and scientists can examine whether the culture of the Nephites and Lamanites fits into real world history of a) Jewish culture and b) native American culture.
Wow. So many wows in this episode. Patrick is kind, respectful and eloquent. Kudos to him for not only being brave enough to come on Mormon Stories, but for sharing his beliefs unapologetically and at the same time being able to understand why so many of us feel the way we do and why we left, without judgment or condemnation. Both sides were very civil and respectful. I hope the church is listening and takes what he said to heart. I still have a hard time understanding how anyone who knows as much as he does can reconcile it all and stay true to the faith, but if it works for him then I'm happy for him. And thanks to John and Margi for letting him turn the tables and ask them some uncomfortable questions as well.
I have so much respect for Patrick! So honest, so thoughtful, and so dedicated. I admire and often long for his conclusions.
I literally clapped i nmy empty bedroom after his emotional statement. Such a beautiful man
I'm voting for Patrick Q Mason for prophet
I really appreciate you two doing this, and my honest opinion is that this is excactly what is needed more. Instead of talking to no critics and claiming that no apology or excuse will ever come from the church, this, to me, is the most Christlike apporach. I always felt that true leadership does not just mean to only excercise authority with love, gentlenss, kindness and meekness, but also with a humble heart that welcomes every question, every concern, every reality of individual people, and talk about it in a spirit of love. Surely there would be some members that would be offended if the leadership would act that way, but if so, than only for quesionable reasons.. I can see absolutely no reason why a honest, sincere, humble and respectfull conversion, just as you two had, could in any way be wrong.. rather the opposite, it would open the doors to healing on so many levels.
To me the podcast I loved the very most so far.
Thanks, John for having the humilty and courage to have a good discussion with Patrick Mason.
Listening to this interview, and then listening it to again, makes me want to be a much better member than I am!
I love philosophy! I found this interview and discussion very stimulating!
"Do What Is Right Let The Consequence Follow..." ABSOLUTELY!!! Own the reality and let's stand up for children! YES!
If only the LDS church as a whole could be more like Patrick Mason and Dr. Julie Hanks! I would have been able to stay... I can't put the toothpaste back into the tube now, but I'm always happy to see healthier attitudes growing within the church. The people staying in need that!
After thinking about this interview a little more I got pretty fired up. Patrick says that he doesn't see any cult-like behavior in his own ward but he is egregiously and sadly wrong. Every single day young girls are being taught that their primary purpose and greatest value is that of a mother in the home and having and raising as many children as they possibly can. Young boys are being told that they have no choice but to serve a mission just because they were baptized when they were 8 years old under extreme emotional and social pressure. There are no programs in the church that encourage young people to truly examine themselves and to take the time to find out who they are and to become emotionally mature and financially secure before taking on the responsibilities of a family or maybe not having a family at all if it turns out they are not suited to it. These young people are having their personalities neutered at a very young age in order to fit them into a very narrow definition of what is acceptable within the context of the church with no concern for what their personalities, talents and interests might be if they were allowed to develop normally. This is cult behavior 101. I could go on with a million examples of thought stopping behaviors that are woven into every lesson and talk. I could talk about how people who leave the church are talked about like they are somehow flawed or evil and how the young people are told that there is nothing for them but pain, loneliness and misery outside of the church if they were ever to leave. These things come straight from the top and are integral to the function of every ward in the church, including yours Dr. Mason. To deny any of that is truly putting your head in the sand. The reason you don't see this as cult behavior is because it is the water you swim in, the air you breathe everyday of your existence in the church. You seem to be a thoughtful person but you need to let the bare facts speak for themselves and you need to accept the logical conclusions of those facts.
I totally agree Eric. I can’t help to think he’s in denial. He’s looking through rose colored glasses. I am saddened he doesn’t see or accept the truth of this cult.
Yep! He’s swimming in the sea of LDS! I’m hoping that one of his children see the truth of how corrupt this institution is. It brainwashed its members! My daughter BF(we’re Christian not LDS) is serving his mission. I read his emails. He’s getting brainwashed! 🥲
I thought Mr Mason would have some more insights and answers concerning doctrine, history, prophets and staying in the church. But at the end of the day it's kind of the some 'ol same 'ol ---- the hoops he has to jump through to make it work remains a bridge to far for me.
Very insightful and educational. Thank you all!💞
Patrick, you have said more things than other people have been excommunicated for.
Margi had summed it up brilliantly: "maybe there is a little bit of privilege?"
Stake President Roulette. I’m guessing Patrick cleared this with his SP before coming on to make sure (I know I would have).
To be sure.
Very intriguing. I took the class he teaches from USU ten years ago. It seems this guest's perspective would deepen your opinion no matter what side of the line you are on.
I've got a lot to say... and I don't have to be as tactful as John is.
John's "Meta" Question: "Why isn't there a public course, published by you or somebody else, that just takes questioning Mormons through... Mormon intellectual history? Why aren't faithful Mormon scholars writing rebuttals to the CES letter, MormonThink, etc.,... (that) lays out the factual history. ... Why haven't you written that book... What's more important than the loss of faith? What more important work could be done...(than) to try and provide better answers to questioning Mormons? Why hasn't that been done yet; it's 2022!" (1:57:37)
Answer from fully tenured, doctorate-level, Mormon Historian Professor: "I-I-I'm just not interested... again, just personally... I'm just not interest... In a world where life is short and I've only got so many hours in a day... that's not where I've chosen to spend my energy" (2:04:38)
*???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
Imagine a fully tenured professor in ANY other historical or scientific field expressing such an attitude of disinterest and flippancy toward their CHOSEN field of study and expertise! And all after just rhapsodizing on and on about how important he thinks Church history is to his own claimed "faith" (about which he claims, despite being a historian, to have never had cause for a crisis). This right there proves exactly what John had attempted to point out earlier and that this man denied: This guy does have an agenda and a pronounced bias preventing him from scientifically and historically examining Church history in any objective manner... hence why he remains so flippant and disinterested; because he can't permit any such objective scientific review. For if he were to permit it... he would be inextricably forced into the very crisis of faith he so strangely prides himself for never having experienced. (Frankly, I feel this is a lie, also.)
And kudos to you, John, for so diplomatically yet also so doggedly calling this charlatan out on such contradictory professional flippancy (2:04:59). Thank you for tactfully and politely skewering him for his blatant disingenuousness in pooh-poohing Church History away when, both for him as a "Professor of Religious Studies & History" as well as for ANYONE else in the Church truly seeking REAL Truth and Knowledge, there is nothing more important! And while such apathy would be tragic in any other Mormon, yet it is absolutely shocking and unforgivable to encounter in a fully tenured, degreed, professional Mormon historian professor. Especially one who has just primped and preened himself before your audience as a professional historian for his knowledge and experience in applying historical objectivity and academic acumen to historical research. And yet... all he proves throughout this series is his penchant for exploiting his academic credentials to commit the Logical Fallacy of Appeal to Authority in his defense of the Church, while also writing nothing but faith-promoting books entirely devoid of the very historical objectivity and scientific scrutiny he claims to exhibit and champion.
After hearing his complete dismissal as unimportant to him the very academic examination and review of Church history he claims as his professional and chosen field of study, I just lost all respect for this "professor." The only thing this man is blatantly "professor" of ... is Church propaganda.
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I greatly appreciate Patrick’s willingness to come on Mormon Stories Podcast. I learned a lot from his experience. I was excited to hear how someone so knowledgeable in the Mormon church and its history can stay a faithful Mormon. While I appreciate Patrick seeing both sides of all issues and questions presented to him, I was disappointed during “lighting rounds” toward the end. How Patrick makes sense of polyandry and polygamy to me sounded like cherry picking. This gives me a sense of “he’s trying too hard”. The true Church of Christ on the Earth shouldn’t have these issues, especially when it claims it was directly revealed from God to His prophet, Joseph Smith. At best, Jospeh Smith was a prophet of God who was lead astray pretty early on in his ministry.
Margi 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 very thought provoking, poignant questions. Much appreciated.
I thought I had many friends as a Mormon. When I decided no longer to attend the church, I discovered that I had one actual friend. The rest were just fellow-travellers. I never said a single word against the church or tried in any way to influence anybody, but I was shunned. Patrick, who strikes me as particularly humble in the way he speaks, may actually have many genuine friends who just happen to be Mormon. That would be a gift.
I think Patrick nails it in his response to you, that he is not a fundamentalist when it comes to scripture. We all pick and choose and it’s naive to assume you have to take the whole package or nothing. I was of his view and have just as many university degrees as he has if not more. I never had a spiritual crisis in the sense you and many of your listeners have had. I left the church because, as applicable to me, it failed in its central premise, that it was the fulfilment of man’s quest for happiness. The day I realised that it wasn’t that for me was the day I quit.
Wow! Just wow! So interesting to see how a great mind makes things work.
At 2:43:17. Patrick admits JS slept with a lot of these plural wives. You rarely hear any apologist admit this as fact.
I think a lot of members are realizing that the claims aren’t true but they like the church and how it helps them live their lives.
Thanks John and Margie! ❤❤
At 2:27:50. Patrick is very clever how he explains translation as inspiration or revelation. He admits Joseph Smith using a top hat and seer stone with no plates in front of him is not a proper translation. He neglects to discuss how members were pointed for generations to the Urim and Thummin and breastplate (see History of the Church, volume 1). This was taught as the sole method of translation along with two scribes (Harris and Cowdery). It is only recently that the church has admitted to a top hat and seer stone theory. Scribes also included people other than Harris or Cowdery, including Emma Smith and Whitmer. See the July 1993 issue of Ensign magazine where then Elder Nelson briefly discusses this (A Treasured Testament). It is only recently that the church website talks about a top hat and seer stone along with a video in 2018.
He's not making any apologies for the Church's policy of lying. That's how I took it.
When he says that our top leaders are not theologians, he's *technically* correct. However, in light of the fact that the leaders are revered as "prophets, seers and revelators," I would argue that this makes them even higher than a trained theologian, and precisely who the members are counseled to look to for our theology.
Cult like behavior? Fear of questioning authority? Blind obedience? Fear of retribution? Willing to engage in violence? Ideas set in concrete that people cannot overcome?
Patrick is a good person with a good heart. However, it seems apparent to me that he is actively choosing to make the church be true, rather than analyzing what makes most sense. I was this way until I got burnt out enough to conceptualize the idea that it would be ok if it wasn’t. Then I started to analyze the history impartially. I don’t think Patrick’s takes on church history are reasonable, let alone believable. He admits there are problems but doesn’t allow the horrific history of the truth get in the way of what he feels he needs to believe. It makes no sense that the Old Testament is fiction, but maybe part of the BOM is but part isn’t, and it doesn’t matter whether there were physical plates or whether Joseph translated and what he said or what he revealed go’s saying about him and it also is ridiculous that you can pick and choose that certain things are from god but others like section 132 and polygamy aren’t. It just doesn’t follow, unless you just simply want to believe despite not having a logical reason to. I’ve always been waiting on any reasonable explanation of the problems with the church’s history and this is basically the last straw for me holding out hope not that it’s true, but that there could be a reasonable explanation of nuanced believe that is coherent and makes logical sense without embarrassment mental gymnastics.
These two men model what our political or religious discussions used to be like. Thanks for reassuring me that civility is not dead.
For those that still believe in the church, he should be the next prophet. Even though he still believe in the non sense foundation of the church (Joseph S. and the book that JS wrote), he's more Christ like than all the prophets combined. What a great soul.
2:45:00 he mentions about how God works through deeply flawed men. Interesting thing is, that whoever it seems God is working through, these men get an extensive amount of privilege with it. So God can chose to use any flawed human to restore his church, someone who maybe has a minor personality flaw. But instead he chose a man who used his position to coerce women and children into marriages, extort people out of money and property, become the ultimate source of authority for a church and a city, to name a few. If God is all knowing, all powerful, all loving, why not chose someone who had a little bit more of a moral compass? Why JS? Why the current prophet or even the 15? They all benefit from privilege now, being on boards of corporations, receive large stipends, and not only get admiration of members, but can even demand it. God using imperfect people to carry his work seems like a justification for corrupt behaviours and not something a loving and all knowing God should expect or chose.
You nailed it Greg Hess. I believe Patrick is sincere but for me this approach just doesn’t work. Putting trust in a “prophet” of this nature becomes indistinguishable from just picking a random person who happens to be preaching stuff that you like and agree with. There is zero evidence that Russel Nelson is led by God in any significant way, especially compared to the thousands or millions of people who have way more Christlike love and empathy than Nelson has shown toward humankind. So at that point it’s just silly to call him any more a prophet than some other corner preacher. The only difference between these two is that one of them is actually arrogant enough to claim he’s a prophet.
I have often found that some of the most dynamic human beings tend to have flawed outcomes, perhaps the unique strengths they are endowed with also make them vulberable in specific ways. Who is to say that God couldn’t have chosen anyone but Joseph? Either he was or was not a prophet, but many in history have done things if true wonderment, while also falling prey to tendencies not aligned with the good they have done. I dont think anyone else could have done what he did… for all he was, it was his assignment to bring the church out of obscurity.
Great comments… honorable discussion.
To pretty much every specific historical question John asks, pointing out the documented accounts (e.g., 2:20:00), Dr. Mason responds with dissembling variations of: We don't know; we weren't there...but this is what I believe... (?!)
How is this the least historically justified on any scientific or academic level?
He "knows" the Church is true, the "Restoration" (title of his faith-promoting, blatantly non-scientific book plugged here) is real, and Joseph Smith was a real prophet translating by revelation ... and all while categorically denying as possible any Occam's Razor logic that he might just have made it all up. Oh, and while he "knows" the Gold Plates were real as were all of Joseph's "revelations," yet he was forced to admit polygamy, polyandry, adultery, underage sex, were not... even though Joseph claimed they ALL were, thus obviously lying about at least some of them. But still, to this fully tenured, doctorate-level, professor of history, Joseph was a true prophet of God! Don't know whether to laugh or cry. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief.
At 2:31:17. The Golden Plates. Patrick asks did Joseph actually make them or were they a Nephite record? This is unusual to hear this much honesty from an LDS public intellectual. He also dismisses apologists who use "parallels" and says parallels are not evidence.
Great interview. Thanks to all involved.
I think people like Dr Mason may resist long lists of LDS validity claims because they know they can’t be answered without twisting logical thinking into a pretzel of unreality or remaking the church completely into something it isn’t. Unfortunately LDS thought never seems to be able to just strip things down to the roots. It always has to add endless strata of complexity to events that aren’t really that complex. And it creates a grand exemption for the church as far as reason is concerned where it applies heavy scrutiny to other ideologies. Simple yes or no questions simply refute the history so they must be avoided. It’s such a heavy weight to carry.
Retention in the church at 0:22:00. I am working on a project now which addresses this problem. The church will often use membership numbers, but never publishes formal activity rates. The two real numbers that are important are retention rates for converts and retention rates for existing members. Activity rates are also related. The numbers have been visibly down for more than a decade. There is also a social demography issue in that members have fewer children and many members never have children. This will create visible problems in the next generation. It may have some bearing today in seeing fewer active people available to serve missions. The other problem which is the church is aware of is declining activity among youth and YSA members. If they fail to stay active, they don't serve missions. They then fail to marry in the temple. And temple marriage is a big predictor of activity in the church, especially when the couple has kids.
I'll be interested to see what you come up with!
To say " Go ahead and question, that's fine. " This is not an adequate answer.
Mason is likable , but his answers don't cover the awful mess , the crazy illogical heresy which is Mormonism.
Finally a man who speaks his truth while acknowledging the issues the Church has with everything we all struggle with. John you are right, Prof Mason is doing the job the top echelon should be doing.
How did this giant corporation get so far removed from the simple loving humanity of Christs ministry on earth? I often wonder what He would make of all this
John's stats at 0:38:24. Pretty accurate and not surprising. YSA members are in decline as are the youth. A source in the church told me recently early return from mission rates are a concern. Many early returns are due to mental health and stress concerns experienced by missionaries. And a significant amount of youth are not interested in serving missions.
Mason seems genuine and I enjoyed part 1 but part 2 seems very confusing. He points out all the things he does not agree with in the church but says he NEVER has had doubts? Makes no sense to me. As a non member I think I can look at this fairly objectively. I feel like his shelf is cracking.
I don’t see it that way, FWIW.
Ilk really made me giggle. At 2:19, I saw real vulnerability and maybe some pain, and knew that this guy is absolutely as straight with us as he can, on both what he KNOWS and what he BELIEVES personally. Should you ever read this, Dr. Mason, thank you. Sincerely.
Patrick will be the next Bill Reel. And we will welcome him. ;)
Wow! I appreciate that Mason showed up for Mormon stories, but things really fell apart for him in this second segment. He's clearly a sincere guy, but he really does not provide any satisfying answers to John's questions. His defense of the Book of Mormon while accepting that the Old Testament was myth was astounding. The Old Testament is thousands of years older and has much more evidence for it's historical reliability than the Book of Mormon.
Summary: I like the Church and want it to be true because it's been good in my life. Therefor I simply choose to believe despite the overwhelming evidence it is false. Oh, and I ignore the stuff I don't like. LOL
Messy and complicated ways… Why is god, his prophets, and his church messy and complicated?
Yeah, I thought his house is a house of order and his gospel was simple and straight forward
...Because the LDS church is not GODS Church.
I loved and appreciated Margi's question, a true highlight in this interview. And Patrick, respect man, I honestly couldn't do as many mental gymnastics with it all and had been easier for me to have spirituality also in an agnostic way outside of any organized religion, but I believe every organization needs a person like you on it.
💛💛 I'm loving this series! Thank you, Patrick.
lol Spicy Maven 💜
John, I can’t see that this guy really answered your most heart felt questions! Never heard so much ummm, ummm,ummmm! For being a true and and faithful member even I am left scratching my head! Think it was kind of pick and choose on his part! Boy I’d love to have a one on one! Have to say I was impressed with your additude and demeanor today! I do agree with his ideas that he is committed to it being the Church of Christ! Not the church of Joseph Smith or even Pres Nelson therefore let’s try to make it work better for all of us but it’s either the Church of Jesus Christ or not!That we have to come to an agreement on this point is all important ! If it has errors , which it does let’s get behind its being his church or not and let’s go for wood! If Christ had that much money he would find some way to use it to reach out and touch his children’s lives - temples necessary of course but not become a Biden and make society less functional because of handouts! Job creation, like have the homeless built homes! Teach them a trade! Lots of fun things to do!
I did get a bit of better understanding of his picking scripture due to his belief if it’s Christ like or not! But again Iam a bit scattered by his various explanation! If god put a mark on Cain so others would know the neg they would get from harming him is that racist? I’ve wandered around here! What is our gender ideas? Lots of thinking ? Are we supposed to decide what a prophet is and does! Can see why your scratching your head!
What Patrick says will be recorded but everyone has a right to change their mind over time as they learn and grow. I'll also add that if John Dehlin decided to go back to church because he was convinced that it was the true church as it claims to be, I would not judge him or be made at him for that transition.
Patrick Mason is by far my favourite member of the LDS church ! He knows and understands the church on a level that the leaders and membership need to strive for! 😎🤙🇨🇦