16:53 I had to record this in post because the audio cut out originally which is why it sounds so bad. Same with 24:34, but that's because it's a post editing outro. Hope it isn't too bad! Update: I've just noticed the claims for some of the clips used in this video, so I'll be blurring or covering them in post. Apologies for being required to do that, and the first section of the video being quieter than the rest of the video (around the first 5-6 minutes)
Whether people see it bad or not, I believe everyone should have the right to enjoy it or not no matter the complaints. Everyone is different, and should be able to love the parts they do. For me, this season captured how people change very well, and when going through things, have hard conflicts within themselves which change them. As someone who is indecisive, I understood Caitlyn very well as I have struggled with hating/accepting someone in my life.
@@reduxxedr incredible point that I've been trying to say as much as possible. People think the point of this video is to change their minds, but it isn't; it's meant to state my thoughts on this show that means so much to me while telling people who dislike the final few episodes why I think they dislike it and the fact that I understand them. The dislikes are okay, people aren't required to enjoy the same media
I wonder how much of the criticism I see is a vocal minority and natural result of something gaining wider popularity. I've yet to see a nuanced objective criticism...it usually boils down to expectations and entitlement.
A lot of it is valid, but there was one review I saw that was so abhorrent I had to pause midway to take a step back. He said his criticisms weren't nitpicks and people are wrong/stupid or whatever, then proceeds to complain about things like Caitlyn's 5 person strike team being so small and Caitlyn not accurately using a mirror to look at Jinx? Like who cares? It's stuff like that that shows people don't know what they're talking about
But the probelm with aeason 2 IS the focus on plot. Season 1 was so great because the characters journey allows the plot to happen. Season 2 feels hollow because the plot shoves so many character moments that could have happened to the wayside. Also WAY too many things happen offscreen. Ambessa's motivations don't make any sense, pretty much the whole time. She was just a vehicle to delived the climactiv action scene they wanted
@@yungthunder2681 that's what I said in my video. The problem people have with it is the shift from a character focused plot to a plot focused story. As for things happening off screen, I get what you're saying. I feel like they did more than enough, but people wanted more out of stuff like timebomb. Ambessa I don't get why people dislike her. I explain in my video that her motivation is very clear and she will stop at nothing to obtain it, no matter the cost. She's been this way since season 1. I appreciate the response, it's nice to see alternative takes
Loss of Political focus: oppressed for two centuries, forced them to suffer and work for the upper class who lives in a high castle, never gets hungry, and incredible rich because of the oppressed lower class. Silco wanted independence, probalby he just sat on the top of the food chain, and nothing woudl have changed. However Jinxed blowed up the aggrement. The Chembarons turned against each other, consequently all of them failed, because they only could have been strong enough together. However there were rebellion, and consequently even more suppression. The Pilties invited a foreing force to make the lower class life even more unbearable. And when the Pilties suddenly found themselves against a god like being supported by the Ambessa's Noxian forces, they reached for the lower class. Whom first realistically seemed leaving the city (I mean offering the route out is itself a fantasy), but than turning their back to the freedom, and going back to fight for their oppressors ws the real fantasy. 1789 Paris, the perfect example. I don't really see, how the oppressed working class would fought for the Bourbons. They fought for the Republic, for Napoleon, but not for the Bourbons. They would have fought for Jinx or maybe Ekko. But for Caitlyn, for an enforcer? Don't be ridiculous. And if Jinx or Ekko said to them, we have to fight for the Pilties, they would turnt their bakc to them. Season 1 started as a realistc show with fantasy elements, Season 2 ended up as a fantasy show with some realistic elements. I need deeper explanation than your 2 unconvincing mins Oh, and letting Sevike to sit in the council where 1 represents the working class, 7 the upper class, what chance does she has? If her word could habve veto in every matter, maybe, but I don't think the aristocracy would go that far. She became a useful idiot for the upper class. By the way, noone listened to Sevike when she tried to make a speech by Vander's statue, whom does she represent than? It's a facade. If they'd show how another chembaron takes over the control and everything goes back to the way it was before, it'd have been realistic. The upper class never does anything for the lower class, till the lower class don't rebell and fight for their rights. Just look hwere are we again. Look how the modern capitalist burgoise use the poor to keep them in power
I agree with this, but I also heavily disagree. The Zaunites never fought for just Piltover, they mainly fought for the Zaunite people. They knew that if they did not stop Viktor and Ambessa, they, and possibly everyone, would be stripped of their individualism through Viktor's unity. The point of me bringing up the way they look at Sevika is supposed to show that political unrest in the finale which people didn't seem to understand even though I said it very clearly. You speak of the "2 minutes" I use to talk about this subject but that's because I didn't want to spend so much time covering something that wasn't something I could combat as easily as the other three points. I agree with Silco not doing anything because he became like the Piltovans by taking control of Zaun and oppressing these people. What I don't agree with is the fact that the Zaunites fought for Piltover. You use the example of 1789 Paris and that's exactly what happened here. They didn't fight for the Piltovans, or at least mainly for Piltover, but they clearly fought for Zaun. Sevika failed to rally Zaun without the help of Jinx (in the case of episode 4, Isha, who represents the idea of Jinx), but the finale shows the Zaunite people who left the Piltovan meeting rally against Ambessa and Viktor to fight for the people of Zaun, only fighting for Piltover by proxy. As for Sevika having a say at the table, that doesn't matter because she's at the table. This does a lot for her and Caitlyn's character
I loved season 2, but admittedly I initially conceded a bit on the Caitlyn complaints, because she does seemingly switch on a dime at the commune, even though I did pick up on her subtle resistance to Ambessa's fascism. I read some people essentially framing it as Cait turning just because she's such a simp for Vi. But, after mulling it over a bit, I think she did oppose Ambessa the whole time, as you said, but got swept up in everything and didn't feel brave enough to really stand up to Ambessa. Then she stumbles across Vi, a person she has framed as inspirational and brave to the Enforcers...Vi provides Cait with both a cause for action and the bravery to take it. She chose that moment to make her move not because she's horny for Vi, but because Vi inspires her to be brave.
The problem is that we aren't shown at any point Caitlyn going against Ambessa right up until she reunites with Vi. She had disagreements with her but never outright opposes her actions in any significant way. Cait even went to Stillwater and saw the carnage Warwick caused. But because Vi told her he was her dad, she still just flips. This isn't "show, don't tell", we're neither shown, nor told.
@@brian0057 she does do this though. We see it through implicit details like her facial expressions and how she reacts to things like in episode 4. I stated all of these in my video with examples (although, some are hard to see because I had to blur it out). This is also reemphasizing in the final act: "she oinked poison in your ear and you just took it" "I know". Also, she doesn't object Ambessa out of fear because Ambessa has the army, but also because she's so hyperfixated on Jinx to the point where she ignores everything else.
@@brian0057 She also flat out DOES oppose her with her actions. The scene when Ambessa recruits Singed comes to mind...Cait showing up there to basically say "I see what you're doing" and then being prepared to shoot him despite knowing Ambessa wants to use him.
@@Eggroll3s I agree that she's hyperfixated with Jinx. It makes sense and it's in character. But I dont agree that she's afraid of Ambessa. When Caitlyn talks back to Salo at the end of Episode 1, the reaction shot of Ambessa told me she was impressed with her. So when she nominated Cait for commander, it made total sense to me. Because she wasn't some pushover like Salo. Ambessa didn't want a simple puppet. She wanted someone strong under her control. Cait doesn't underestimate her, but she never seems to be afraid of her. This is why her going with Vi in episode 6 seems so jarring. Maybe an extra scene of her talking with Maddie about scheming to undermine Ambessa would've made it much better. And it would've reinforced Maddie's betrayal in Act III so much more.
@@kyu2o337 Yes, but that ultimately leads nowhere. Ambessa doesn't even stop her. After Singed tells his story about his daughter and shows them, Singed still goes with them and still trying to hunt Warwick. That's why I say Cait never opposes Ambessa in any significant way. It's not until Vi shows up that she flips.
Season 2 was good but honestly those last two episodes just had me asking “How did we get here?”. If you think about it season 1 was about jinx and vi, the relationship between two sisters with some magic and politics here and there. But season 2 had this dramatic shift, jinx and vi no longer felt like the main focus of the show and it felt like the new main focus was the high tops. One of my biggest issues with season 2 is not seeing viktor more during his transformation. He gets injured, heals, then comes back 5 episodes later being the messiah god sent leader cultist having super powers to heal anyone and anything. I understand how he became like that, I just hate the fact we barely see any of this. Another issue was vander, I felt like introducing him as a reborn monster was just lazy writing to have some sort of plot to make Vi on jinx’s side again. Not only that what was the whole point of jinx’s friend Isha sacrificing herself if he literally comes back an episode later And I’m sorry but you can’t convince me ambessa was interesting or fun to watch after the few episodes later she was introduced. The same can be said about any of the other hightops that weren’t caitlyn, jayce, viktor or heimerdinger. I wished the show just stuck to what it was. A relationship between two sisters with magic and politics. And in season 2 it never felt like there was a true conclusion for them.
I agree I can’t help but feel a real reason season 2 didn’t hit for so many people was because the political aspect of the piltover and Zaun relationship is built up in the beginning of season 2, showing how Piltover due to rebel/terrorist attacks is becoming more and more facist, however the dynamic is basically scrapped in order for piltover + zaun to fight amnesia and victor, entirely changing the expected but more importantly set up conflict we wanted to see, this made the way the story is taken feel one of strange and out of left field in my opinion
@@jack33317 The first season was ultimately a tale of two sisters, but politics was the key focus as the struggle between Piltover and Zaun influenced every crevice of every character and decision. I get what you mean when you say it's not the main focus because it ultimately does take a backseat to cover grander ideas. As for Viktor, I can't really argue against that as I thought it was great and the opinion you have is perfectly valid. Vander/Warwick is kind of meant to be that in a sense. The reason why it's actually well made, in my opinion, is the fact that Warwick is designed to be the bridge between Vi and Jinx. Even though they're sisters, they do not fit well together and, after the first act of the show, we never see them together again without a mediator or reason like Vander or Isha. It's a fleeting moment that they want to strip away as fast as it came, and I think that's awesome. Also, just to clear up, Vander didn't come back. He died in the commune as Warwick's remaining blood was used to heal Viktor, with Warwick's lifeless corpse being used like a puppet. The sacrifice wasn't lessened because the message and point was still there, and, even if Warwick didn't die, Isha destroyed enough to allow them to escape to safety. She's the Powder who never was. Honestly, for the rest of your points, I totally understand it. The show differs from season 1 which, even though I love, people can see as extremely jarring. If you want a show focused on relationships and politics, I think you should watch Andor. Season 2 comes out next year I believe and season 1 is a masterpiece. I appreciate the comment a lot though. So many people are saying random negative garbage without giving reason as to why they don't like it, so there's no dialogue to be had. I like discussing things with people which is why I made this video in the first place. I really appreciate your comment, thank you.
@@bananaananab3916 I addressed this in my video by saying that I can't actually counter this criticism because it's not wrong. Even if the political focus has taken a backseat and is still really good in my opinion, it's not the main focus which, for a lot of people, can be so jarring. I totally understand why people don't like this. Thank you for actually stating why you don't enjoy aspects of Arcane instead of just commenting with random negativity
Appreciate the calm and astute observations, keep it up! In regards to pacing, I believe it's a very broad and subjective topic. It can entail a fast rhythm, missing beats to ensure a natural progression, overwhelming information to fully digest and more. Although I had no issues following the story, I was perplexed at the direction it was going. At times it moved too erratically without proper anticipation, as if the writers intended a specific destination without fleshing out the journey to it, making it feel unearned or forced into a preconceived narrative. In my view, it became very apparent with the sister's reunion in ep5, albeit a very critical moment, it wasn't sold very effectively with how little substance they devoted to reach that point. Viktor's arc is difficult to unpack, but for me it boils down to his pursuit of ending all suffering. He realized that no matter how healthy we are, the seed of evil is planted much deeper in the human essence, therefore we'll never vanquish it unless we abandon our very nature. Like you elaborated, this comes at the cost of erasing all individuality and agency to ensure a peaceful, but also stagnant and purposeless outcome. There's much more to this idea, would love to hear your two cents on this. Although implicit storytelling is often praised for its artistic flair, one caveat if executed poorly is widening the range of interpretation and undercompensate. S2 has a mixed reception, those who absolutely love it to those who despise it, while both enjoyed the first season. While mostly caused by shifting the focus from characters to plot, which didn't work for those who specifically liked it for the former, I reckon it's also due to how the abstruse structure led people to spin their own narrative around it to justify their feelings. It's not necessarily a critique to the show, but it highlights how if people want to see the good or bad parts in it, they can. I've seen plenty of postive discourse, yet it's very variegated and I find it hard to assess what the writers truly meant or whether it was the viewer's perception.
I totally understand all of these complaints. My brother (who I mentioned in the video) talks about how Arcane's second season isn't long enough to flesh out certain things without feeling like point A to point B. He also states that implicit stories don't work in situations like this because these are "major story beats that shouldn't be treated like afterthoughts". As for Viktor, there's a lot more regarding his ego and loneliness, like when he says to Sky "I will miss our talks" with her replying "No, you won't." Viktor used her notes to validate his ego, only caring about her death after reading them. It's small things like these that enhance these characters so much and make them seem real, even with their already deep character arcs. Appreciate the comment, thank you for discussing!
I feel the criticism it could have been two seasons instead of one, covering the exact same story beats overall, should have been addressed. It’s not just me who says this, either; I’m aware it’s not that simple but it’s worth commenting on at least.
I don't think it's big enough to be honest. My main response would be what I've been saying in the comments: more episodes would've been better since more content means we can flesh more things out. This ties back into the idea of bad pacing
I don't think the pacing is the issue. The ammount of information they needed to tell the story simply didn't fit in 9 40-minute long episodes. The montages helped a lot but we missed transitional scenes and the time to take us from point A to point D. B and C were simply skipped and left to our imagination or simply removed. The episodes needed to be longer. I wouldn't change anything to the story. I would simply add scenes, dialogue and character interactions to deliver it better.
You're describing a pacing issue. Story beats are like speed bumps that pace the story down, and the story is missing a lot of them which is what makes it feel rushed
@@chrishaven1489 Bad pacing can be argued about shows that mismanage their available time. Think of the Rings of Power whose pacing was atrocious. The last 4 episodes of House of the Dragon season 2 had bad pacing as well. They wasted time on bullshit and failed to fit the plot of the last two episodes that were cut from the story. Arcane managed to have a story thst needed at least 3 more hours of screentime done in the same timeframe as season 1. It's a studio problem.
it's overall a lot to process. I think it's a fraction as good as season 1 which still makes it a masterpiece, but it definitely gets better with every rewatch. for the record I've watched the entire first season in full over 6 times not counting the times I go back to individual episodes. I've only done 1 rewatch of season 2 not counting individual acts and episodes, but that will defnitly change. I'm learning new things with every rewatch, and by watching analyses from others with more runeterra knowledge. that's another thing. season 2 is more reliant on pre-existing runeterra lore with characters such as leblanc, janna, and swain, kinda. but the more the second season encourages me to seek out and learn about runeterra itself, the more I have to appreciate.
Honestly I think quite a large bit of complaints come from people who are kinda hyped up on the internet hate train(not that there aren’t criticisms of course) but there were videos saying it sucks within like a day of it ending which at least to me doesn’t sound like enough time to gather your thoughts properly But I dunno, at least for me, over these past few weeks I’ve really come to appreciate what the show has done amazingly but also understand some issues. Overall I’d still say it’s peak cinema but that’s my thoughts🤷♀️
From the opening scene you'd think arcane was primarily about political conflict. Season 2s ending had some of that but it was mostly just pinning all the blame on Ambessa. Like piltover hadnt been oppressing them before she started stoking the flames. "No amount of good deeds can undo our crimes!!" Screams Caitlyn the military dictator who gassed civilians with toxic chemicals 😊 I like how she says "our" here yet she's the one who gets no judicial repercussions for her actions
@@WithoutFear804 it was an ending about unity which does conclude the political plot but some think it's weak. I personally think it's weak ONLY IF Viktor doesn't exist. I get why people don't like them setting aside their differences to fight against a greater enemy. In a solely political show, it'd feel weak, but I think it works here because of the themes of humanity
S1 gets better and more coherent the more you look. S2 gets worse and less coherent the more you look. I was disappointed with S2. But only because it was a disservice to S1. If it existed on its own it would be fine.
Something that’s kinda telling to me from a production standpoint is that season 1 and 2 are the exact same length, 370 minutes, but the episodes are different lengths. So that, mixed with the creators saying stuff was cut a bunch just SCREAMS to me “hey we really wanted to do (x) but Netflix only gave us a set amount of time so we had to compromise” and I just feel bad for the writers honestly
Sir, If the writer hadn't killed her, the little girl who couldn't talk, then I would have really loved this season. Now I can't even sleep and want to die every day…
This may be a rambly hot take and is a little random, but I really dislike how starved for actual "good" content most audience members are nowadays, that they just so carelessly throw out these bold claims and fancy words on the regular now like, "It was a masterpiece" or "So immaculate" for the most bare minimum effort of work. Nothing is perfect and you can like something as much as you want but masterpiece is a really really high bar, almost nothing can reach that in my personal opinion. However what gets me is almost everything that releases at this point is deemed a masterpiece so long as it's not utter garbage or isn't as bad as other stuff we've had these recent years past. Or the excuse, "You start to like it on your third or fourth watch" is especially heinous, because doesn't that mean you're just forcing yourself to like it? I don't get it. You shouldn't have to rewatch something over and over to like it or even get the point the movie/show is trying to make. It makes me kind of sad to see people see the state of things and just kinda coping with it instead of still wanting to recieve the better quality we expect...
@@haleyrose9751 I honestly 100% agree. The people who know me know that I have an EXTREMELY high bar for media because I've indulged in both good media and previously extremely bad media. We have such limited time that I refuse to indulge in boring mediocre slop, and I really despise those who say "masterpiece". There are really only two or maybe even three shows at most that have reached that level for me, and even those have flaws. I don't know if this was directed at me or not, so my statement is pretty general. I think anyone can think anything is a masterpiece, but I've seen people dish out 10/10 and 9/10 to like, almost everything they see and it's extremely annoying. Indulging in slop gives these creators more incentive to make slop, no matter the type of media you're indulging in. Even if people disliked Arcane, they can't deny that it changed the game with revolutionary animation, budget usage, scale, voice acting, etc. On another note about your "third or fourth watch" point: that's why I can't like one piece. The concept is cool, the designs are cool, it's theoretically pretty cool, but it's way too long and people saying "oh yeah wait until you get to episode 200 that's when it kicks off" are insane. Like, 200??? That's longer than all of Hunter x Hunter's 2011 anime adaptation which in of itself is a masterpiece of literacy
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, personally I do call Arcane a masterpiece and don't remember even give that title to any other show, so i dont really use it lightly. I also don't see many people using that word that much, but im also not looking every corner of the internet so i could be wrong.
I'm just going to pretend that S2 doesn't exist. 👀 That said, if anyone else loves S2, good for them! I'm always incredibly happy to see the excitement others have over the things they like. Plus, the fandom is massive. There's room for everyone. Also adding that regardless whether or not I liked S2, the general work put into it is phenomenal. The art, the music, the painstaking effort of everyone involved to see this product get made. So much respect. 👍
I really enjoyed this season. I have some issues with it, but there’s a lot to love too. Those who praise the second season as a masterpiece _and_ those who have far less favorable criticisms and complaints both tend to make solid arguments that I agree with (or at least understand).
I’d call it a rushed masterpiece. Too ambitious or too rushed, take your pick (I pick too rushed) but it’s a masterpiece for what they accomplished. I don’t agree that season 2 isn’t rushed - but I do agree that the pacing isn’t actually the problem. It’s just that the pacing is somewhat linked to situations like how Vi lacked that tug and pull you were talking about. That’s my only real gripe with Season 2 though. Rushed, but a masterpiece in spite of that.
@@mishan3168 ask what herself? The timestamp you linked is Ambessa being manipulative. She was not affiliated with Ambessa prior to the finale of episode 3
@Eggroll3s i don't like to pretend like it's all Ambessa. Cait was ready for violence too. And yet, thanks to plot device aka isha, it's also was wrapped up
@@mishan3168 no one is saying it's only Ambessa. In the video I state that what Caitlyn's doing is wrong I also despise the use of "plot device". People act like it's a negative. Isha is a "plot device" but so what? She's used in an extremely well made way to further Jinx's character to heights that couldn't be seen without her
@@Eggroll3s i disagree about Isha being used well. When in reality it just did nothing. One damn child could not fix all jinx mental problems. Also creators completely downplayed influence Shimmer makes on brain. THEY just where afraid to turn jinx in the real villain and wrapped up all her development. Because jinx is best girl, face of league of legends. She can't be that brutal terrorist now.
I don't think the pacing criticism is about them not hinting/telling the details of the story, but rather for things to "feel" like they have weight. If you show me 3s of a character development it doesn't have as much relevance as seeing that character change. This happens with many things, I kept getting a bit lost of alliances and whatnot of people because they changed every half -season- episode following a look in someone eyes or similar. You can be subtle like that sometimes, but if you do it all the time, you end up losing more and more people. I'm a fanboy of the series, and while I like it a lot, I feel like s2 act3 didn't matter half of what s1 act3 did. And part if it was because so many things were happening at once, that I didn't care for half of them anymore. I have friends that like the series but are not fanboys, and they directly didn't like the season, and I get it, part of me liking it is that I made a great effort to do so because I was very attached to s1. So IMHO they use the credit that they got from s1 and burned it here to shove as many stories as possible in a 20 min show, for some people the credit was enough, but for some other people the credit was not enough. I was actually very happy on act1/2, for me the jumped the shark on act 3, where nothing seemed relevant anymore mostly for the pacing, but I still love the show as a whole. EDIT: season -> episode
@@mikel-zzzz the criticism I stated was about the lack of explicit story beats that could've been there if it was longer. I used the example of Vi because we're supposed to know what she's like without the internal tug-and-pull I wish existed more. It feels like she just goes to Vander after a few scuffles with Jinx because we never see her have the dichotomy. My little thought tree said in his video that he wishes there was something small like Vi disagreeing with Jinx, seeing the mural, then deciding to help her with Vander. Something small like that would emphasize so much more than what is already really well presented in my opinion. I stated in the video as well that I'm admittedly a bit biased because I'm very immersed in the universe, so I quickly grasp aspects of it that require further analysis. That's why I understand if people criticize Arcane for things that should theoretically be very explicit
8:05 Well, even though montages is trying to do work. Whole nature of Montage itself, can't let you feel emotional weight of this events. There's no build up. Things just happening.
The montage was built up since the end of season 1. It is the cultivation of Jinx's actions and the consequence it brought on Zaun. It also acts as a buildup towards Cait's betrayal
I am seeing a lot of legitimate criticism, and I can see where people are missing the cohesion of season 1. But for most of the issues I see raised, I feel like I was understanding some things they weren't. Certain criticisms even feel to me like people weren't paying attention enough or just missed implicit context(from body language, visuals, etc) and were just going by dialogue alone and not the meaning or intention behind it. This might not make sense, but I think it was a masterpiece subjectively, but probably 7.5/8/10 objectively. I do feel the scale of season 2 is too grand, and would have liked it to be more grounded, but still thoroughly enjoyed.
I agree with almost everything, but I don't think a show can have an objective score. It goes against the concept of subjectivity because of the way we understand literature
If masters can make mistakes I suppose it could be considered a master peace. Story trobes, world building and message are indead brilliant. Tho with the mistakes in pacing it doesn't show properly. Also they should have let Vender be dead. Come on, let the guy rest. It didnt at to what he stood for, only made it less
@@pellekuipers6856 I get why people don't like Vander being alive, I didn't like it at first either until a few days after act 2 aired. Someone who likes the show described it to me as "the most flawed 10/10 ever" which I think fits your description perfectly.
I suspected Vander was going to be fused with Singed's creation at the end of season 1, but they definitely made him a hybrid character which was a strange angle. I suppose he would otherwise have just been a random Zaunite baddie that would drive plot development anyway, so not sure how else they could have approached it.
@@Eggroll3sHaha, "the most flawed 10/10"-accurate. Yeah, I think the moment they heard they were getting one more season, they should’ve gone back to the writing room with one question: "What did Season 1 promise?" I wrote an essay about this, hehe. Promises like the polarization of Piltover and Zaun or the relationship between Vi and Jinx, or Victor and Hextech
I mean if you see it's flaws and why a lot of people hate then is it a Masterpiece? for me the word masterpiece is something I'd reserve for something that is so objectively well made that even people who personally don't enjoy it can't say that it isn't. Like Pride and Prejudice is too girly for me but it's still a masterpiece. Arcane season 2 is the opposite there is really no good defence for it's flaws and people like it purely subjectively.
@@moe5020 I never said I see the flaws, that's not what this video is about. I'm stating how I understand why people feel this way, and I cannot (and will not) take that away from them. Nothing can be "objectively well made" because literature is subjective by nature. I have no idea what another show being too "girly" has to do with Arcane, but sure. You're saying that my opinion is subjective, there isn't a good defense for the flaws these people have, and my opinion is purely subjective. Like, yeah, it is. By nature, opinions are subjective. You can acknowledge positives in a work which is what you call "objectively well made" but that's not objective.
What I've gotten is that people who liked season 2 seem to just operate on the concept of the entire show is quote" show. Don't tell and they use that because it allows them to superimpose their own thoughts, opinions and viewpoints on what's being expressed in this show instead of this show just openly expressing these thoughts and opinions as a result of this people could just superimpose that this is good because my superimposed vision of the story has been confirmed through these visual aids and not been holistically rejected by the story telling me what it explicitly wants to say I mean you tried to say that the fight between Vi and Jinx was just a few "scuffles" Vi set Jinx up so that Catlin could take a kill shot on her. Thats not a scuffle that is attempted murder. Jesus mercy.
The scuffles are referring to episode 5. That is after Vi's montage. This was made very clear in the context of the video and the script, and was further emphasized through my inclusion of another video using this exact same concept. I don't want to be rude to anyone in the comments, but a lot of these responses have been people watching 5 minutes of my video then commenting on everything when it's factually incorrect. I'm not saying you're doing it specifically, but it's very annoying that this is a consistent theme with RUclips video essay or analyses. The concept that I'm "superimposing" these ideas is wrong because I'm actively looking at what the show has given me and my preexisting knowledge regarding literature and these characters while also tying it to what these characters say and how they act. That's what I did in this video. I said during my conclusion that the show is very implicit and that is a flaw to a lot of people, but I love that because it allows me to get personally involved in this world and look through the eyes of the characters. What you're saying has been addressed in the video but is ultimately wrong because I literally critique the show's usage of this in my video when talking about Vi's lack of internal tug-and-pull and how I wished, even if I was perfectly okay with what we got, there was a bit more to emphasize this.
@@Eggroll3s "The scuffles are referring to episode 5. That is after Vi's montage. This was made very clear in the context of the video and the script, and was further emphasized through my inclusion of another video using this exact same concept. " See that's the issue with your whole video. You hyper focus on one aspect/moment of the show and use it to justify a whole area of the show. Allow me to focus on Vi and the montage argument. Vi leading up to this montage has openly tried to kill her sister with her own hands, Set her sister up to assassinated by her Catlin via sniper shot, Helped Catlin use a biological weapon (Yes using the The Gray on people is a form of biological terrorism fight me on it) on her own people to go hunting for Jinx; again Vi's own sister and then finally got dumped via domestic violence. (Yes Catlin gut checking Vi with the butt of a rifle is domestic violence, again fight me on that.), and finally there's Loris the obvious Vander stand in who's there when Vi has her pit fighting Montage. He is there backing her up supporting her. Hinting at a mentor mentee relationship remaniement of her relationship with Vander Yet that goes nowhere and later one he is just killed. Yet you try to hand wave all of this away when she just bounces back when Jinx mentions Vander. When people mention her montage glosses over things, the things what I listed is what they are talking about. This statement here " The concept that I'm "superimposing" these ideas is wrong because I'm actively looking at what the show has given me and my preexisting knowledge regarding literature and these characters while also tying it to what these characters say and how they act. That's what I did in this video." Is the biggest example of an appeal to credentialism that I'm not going to even touch this Logical fallacy of an argument. How is this " I said during my conclusion that the show is very implicit and that is a flaw to a lot of people, but I love that because it allows me to get personally involved in this world and look through the eyes of the characters." Not the textbook example of superimposing your own thoughts, opinions and viewpoints on what's being expressed in this show instead of this show just openly expressing these thoughts and opinions? Finally I did watch your whole video however it was nothing but unbacked up claims and opinions that i didnt mention it but Ill entertain you for a moment. Your Caitlyn and Ambessa section was almost 12 mins of you openly rejecting what was appearing on the show. You made the claim that Caitlyn didn't order Marshall Law when Both Ambessa and Maddie said she did ordered it and she didn't correct them either one of them when the claim was made. However, because you don't have a moment where you see Caitlin directly ordering the marshall law you have the wherewithal to say at 8:32-8:33 "We never see Catlin actually imposing Marshall Law" Why say this? Did you need to see Catlin out in the streets to know she is the one who implemanted Marshall Law? She is in Charge, the Marshall Law wouldn't happen without her direct say so. That was the whole reason for Ambessa to put Catlin in charge so that if the people were to blame anyone for the Marshall law it would be the person in charge i.e. Catlin.
@darklightimages so, just to confirm, what am I rejecting here? Do you understand what I was saying about Vi's character? She had no way of getting to her goal without hurting anyone close to her, so she chose the easiest route: Caitlyn's Strike Team. She's complicit and lacks identity as everything she does is for someone that isn't herself. She has no purpose or identity which is the point of the montage. No one is denying that she tried to kill Jinx, but she couldn't and stopped Caitlyn because she saw Powder in Isha and would also prefer to not kill an innocent child. This isn't me hyperfixating on one @darklightimages so, just to confirm, what am I rejecting here? Do you understand what I was saying about Vi's character? She had no way of getting to her goal without hurting anyone close to her, so she chose the easiest route: Caitlyn's Strike Team. She's complicit and lacks identity as everything she does is for someone that isn't herself. She has no purpose or identity which is the point of the montage. No one is denying that she tried to kill Jinx, but she couldn't and stopped Caitlyn because she saw Powder in Isha and would also prefer to not kill an innocent child. I didn't hyperfixate on anything, I stated the entirety of Vi's internal struggle using examples from previous episodes to explain why what happened makes sense. The irony of you mentioning how I'm fixating on one point only for you to fixate on one irrelevant point where I quite literally agree with your statement as a conclusion/opinion to a greater point is pretty weird if I'm being completely honest. Second, how is what I said an appeal to credentials? I don't think you understand that statement because I'm not discrediting you, nor am I stating anything equivalent to that or something along the lines of "well if they said it, it must be true!" I'm using preexisting knowledge that I have over years of analysis to deconstruct what I PERSONALLY think is good about the show, but I understand if people don't like certain aspects of the show. That's not superimposing, that's not appealing to any credentials, that's called an opinion. Literature is inherently subjective and the point of this video is to explain why I enjoy it even if I understand why people are criticizing it. Not everything is for everyone, not everyone will like everything. I don't understand how that message was hard to grasp for so many people in the comment section. Literature is created to be analyzed and interpreted. You saying that people "superimposing" their thoughts and ideas is a bad thing is the reason why people struggle with interpretation and meaning. Something so small can mean many different things to many different people, so I was explaining MY interpretation of the show. That's not something unique to me. Unbacked claims? I showed footage explaining everything done before Caitlyn's switch up to prove why I was saying what I was saying. Even if I entertain your idea that she did impose all of those martial laws and didn't oppose Ambessa at all (when the clip I showed is her opposing Ambessa), how does that take away from my point? The point isn't "she's good guys!" The point is "hey, this is actually very in line for her to do, here's why" with a lot of evidence to earlier episodes and even the previous season. It's really baffling how confident you are with wanting to make me look stupid only to hyperfixate on interpretations that are, frankly, just used as a bit of extra support to my claims unlike my usage of actual scenes that we see in the show where people say exactly what I'm saying. Also, I don't know what the "fight me on it" stuff is about but it's kinda odd lmao. All I'll say is that, no, it's not domestic violence. She's not beating her, she hits her with the edge of her rifle in the liver to prevent Vi from stopping her. Your statement feels kind of disingenuous and frankly offensive to actual domestic abuse victims if I'm being honest. It's completely unneeded as an addition to support your argument as well
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive I can totally understand that. The show is very implicit in nature and I think it requires a lot of analysis for what people think should be basic story elements which creates this idea of a rushed story. I do wish they had more content but it sucks that Netflix gave them a forced time limit
@@Eggroll3s I don't think that describing the show as just having a 'very implicit nature' can be enough of a defence for what ultimately culminates to poor writing and structure on the writers' part in my opinion. And this argument gets a little shaky when you consider that the line between a story being 'implicit' and not actually showing/telling its story can be very thin. Even considering the implications of the scenes you described in your video, that for you, fill in the blanks of these characters' arcs sufficiently enough, there are still gaping holes in the narrative, character developments'/dynamics as well as in the plot - the last of which being something I was willing to look past should the show have stuck the landing with exploring its themes conclusively; which, to me, it didn't. For a plot-driven season, it doesn't do well in needling a comprehensive narrative thread without plot holes, which the harder you look at (specifically those regarding time, the multiverse, Silco and Vander's history etc.), the more the story, its themes and characters wither away. And regardless of what the story is implying, if stakes aren't felt and important character moments given room to breath, the 'weight' of each character beat won't be felt. If you can't convey weight and emotional stakes then how are you going to get your audience to care about anything happening on screen? I am not saying for the writers to hold the audience's hand through it. I am saying that the writers didn't let the audience live the story through their characters' eyes and instead remained so implicit in their story-telling (especially for those that do not follow the game's lore) so as to estrange the audience, leaving them behind on character's decisions and motivations and forcing them to extrapolate on what they think is going on during big and small events. And this is why S1, a character-driven story worked, where S2 didn't. Plot-driven stories are structured around the events that need to occur to progress the story forward, often leaving behind emotional pathos, leading to characters doing and saying things that don't feel earned e.g., Jinx and Ekko joining forces and joining the battle in Piltover against Viktor and Ambessa's army within an instant of the two meeting and Ekko reversing time enough times to prevent Jinx's suicide. Mind you, these two almost killed each other in their previous scene together in Season 1. No further exploration of the conversation that they could have had that would not only make Jinx rethink suicide but encourage her to join the cause is quite a bizarre narrative choice. Another glaring example of poor writing that I cannot get past is the one of Ep. 9 when Jinx is actually shown to not have died, after a sacrificial act of saving Vi's life and instead is shown to have escaped and supposedly left the world of Piltover/Zaun on her own. It is indicated that Caitlin figures this out but not that Vi knows that her sister is still alive. I have seen a lot of people say that it was necessary for Vi to believe that her sister was dead as that was the only means through which she would have let her go. With one of the greatest aspects of Vi's arc being that she needs to learn to let go of loved ones and learn what it means to live for herself, not just for others, without feeling immense guilt/regret and responsibility/blame for what happens to them and neither having to face severe consequences and great loss as a result, it is a cheap way to force her to essentially 'move on' and simply 'let go' of her sister because she physically isn't there anymore i.e., she's dead. Which itself is a lie because of course Jinx isn't dead. Not only is it a very selfish choice on Jinx's part to leave Vi believing that her sister is dead, it avoids either character having to actually confront the struggle of their dynamic and their past together. It feels like a cop out on the writers' part to address this compelling part of her character development. Vi feels stripped of any agency of her own in this matter and Jinx's dishonesty creates greater distance in a sister relationship that I believed had much greater potential for closeness. This great lie that Jinx leaves Vi believing feels like a betrayal of sorts that the writers had such little faith and willingness to show how these two characters could find a means of living as each other's sister or not - a conflict that was what made S1 so compelling and felt half-baked and prematurely 'concluded' by the end of S2.
I agree. Everything up till Act 3 was pretty good with me. Bad writing or whatever is like something people can gloss over (it’s the type where you don’t notice it unless someone points it out to you). Act 3 is fine but I see why the creators originally had it to be 1 hour 30 minutes
in my opinion, Act II is the one that drags the season down. Caitlyn flipped so fast in episode 6. All it took was Vi calling her Cupcake once and she betrayed Ambessa on the spot. And Isha was completely unnecessary for Jinx's "redemption arc". Vander's/Warwick's revival and "death" was more than enough emotional attatchment for her to completely break down in Act III.
Isha was the Powder that never was. It was the start of Jinx's redemption through throwing her back to her lowest, only being saved by Ekko. I don't think Cait flipped quickly at all which I explain in the video. So many things point to her betrayal and Ambessa's actions go against the Cait's core principles which she outright tells Ambessa in episode 4 (a clip I also showed in full in my video)
@@reduxxedr I really think there was some corporate shenanigans by Netflix/RIOT that forced writers to cut almost 50% of the intended runtime in the finale and alot of the story was left out. IMO, It still works well enough to put the pieces together, but it definitely feels better to see them than play connect the dots with your imagination.
Honestly, not liking the musical montages is a you problem. (Not you, the video creator. It's a general "you") Music videos being used for storytelling has been a staple of the music industry for decades. Hell, Michael Jackson has some of the best ever made. I don't like musicals (with exceptions), so I don't watch them. But I'm not gonna call them bad just because I don't like them.
@@brian0057 schnee puts it great when he says that music is the epitome of what wild runes are. People complain that the music is very in the nose, but a lot of tracks carry great deeper meaning like Isha's theme. They're saying what's happening, but with the raw, unadulterated emotion that the music brings. It's pretty cool, and I love the music
I feel the tracks for each scene definitely added to the underlying message/emotion that the scene was trying to portray. They embellish the visuals you are seeing, not replace them. I feel like they did a good job.
I personally think Arcane season 2 sucks. VI’s character lost how she drove the plot forward with her headstrong attitude in season 1. All the characters in season 1 felt they had agency. This goes into the character focus thing, and I think that was a critical failure. At the end of the first act, I literally felt myself lose investment in Cait and Vi and Jinx. They moved so fast, in directions I know they wouldn’t have if the plot hasn’t forced them. Obviously the final act is terrible, but act 1 is the most offensive to me, since it felt like a slap in the face to season 1’s finale.
Vi's whole character was one of meaninglessness, which I discuss in the video. The entire point of the montage and her joining Caitlyn's strike team was one of her finding purpose. She doesn't know what she wants, she only knows how to protect others. Think about her character throughout season 1, then question what she actually does for herself. She's never selfish, she always acts on impulse based on what she thinks will benefit everyone else the most. When she loses all of this, she loses purpose. She finds that purpose again through Vander
@@Eggroll3s But again I feel like using Vander as a means for Vi to 'regain her purpose' doesn't actually evolve her character but rather return her to being again stuck only living and caring for others and in this case, it being for the resurrected father whom they have the potential of saving. Vi's arc feels incomplete to me by the end of S2 because besides the purpose of protecting her loved ones and using violence as a means of achieving that, she hasn't gained any purpose for her life outside of that. Instead, the cycle of her giving her all in protecting her loved ones to only lose them again is repeated and she is left to mourn and feel pain. Pain that feels in vain when the only progress Zaun made in their fight against Piltover's oppression was getting a single seat in counsel - one that is shrouded in doubt/scepticism and weariness by all other counsel members. And at some point, it does just feel like, what is the point of her suffering this much pain and losing nearly all of the meaningful relationships in her life? By the end of Act III in S2, i felt an emptiness for Vi, numbed by the countless loss she's forced to deal with and swallow. And why I use the term 'swallow'? Because the show does very little to even show us a glimpse of Vi mourning Vander a second time after Isha blows them all up or mourning Jinx when she believes that she died, sacrificing herself for her sister - it just feels so egregious to not show at least this much of Vi's feeling for her sister and the writers really starved me of much closure on this central part of their story. There's a sense that she is lonelier than ever, despite having Caitlin still by her side - and that goes to show how poorly developed Caitlin and Vi's relationship felt to me. Instead of sufficiently exploring their conflict and having Vi at least be heard out by Cait, we get an unnecessarily lengthy scene of them making love in a jail cell - a scene placed so unnaturally that it is hard for me to perceive it as anything other than cheap fan service in place of what could have been an interesting interaction. The reason I believe it to be so unnatural is because I find it so hard to believe that, after seeing Jinx visibly in despair, hearing her declare a cryptic message that entails that she's made up her mind on doing something potentially harmful as Vi is locked up in a jail cell to prevent her from stopping her sister, that Vi wouldn't immediately rush to find and help Jinx when she's let out by Caitlin. I find it hard to believe that Vi would then say to Caitlin something along the lines of, 'I should have known that she wouldn't help' when the matter isn't that Jinx doesn't want to help and therefore wouldn't, (we've seen her be the 'big fat hero' previously in the season even if she did so reluctantly and Vi has seen Jinx be a caring figure to Isha) but rather that she cannot help because of the severely low mental state she's in. I would think that Vi could at least see that much in Jinx's character and have that much more faith in her especially after her adamance to Caitlin about how Jinx has changed. It then feels very out of character for Vi to not spend any time showing any more concern/worry for Jinx even if she felt that she couldn't immediately help her in that moment but instead to spend a passionate moment with Caitlin - it goes against Vi's core character trait of being somebody who fiercely loves her sister which is a primal instinct that I believe would trigger in anyone who thinks their loved one could be edging something dangerous, even if they're not somebody struggling with their fierce love and protective nature being a double-edged sword. This is part of the reason of why I believe that the show doesn't just have an issue with not having enough time to tell its story but also that it misuses the time it does have, making for far greater disappointment than just some parts feeling rushed or paced incorrectly. And even then, 'not having enough time' is not a good enough excuse for me, as the writers would have roughly known what time they were granted and therefore should have worked smarter to fit in and see through storylines that could be told cohesively in the timeframe they were given.
@ I just disagree she lost it. I think the show just forgot Ekko and Vi had a close friendship. I can’t imagine Vi drowning in Liquor with Loris before she seeks Ekko or Jinx out. I feel her character is simplified to just be a Cait simp so then they can go with the Vanderbilt plot.
The addition of Ambessa late in Season 1 killed the vibes of the show. Season 1 is just as flawed as Season 2. They did a 3 act structure... The 3rd act (if they follow the rules of classic storytelling) should just focus on resolution. They should NOT have added a new character in the resolution part of the story. And in season 2 they have to deal with it. Additionally minor characters in Season 1 were given major character arcs. It was so convuloted! Minor characters should stay as minor characters. They bit off more than they can chew. Season 1 flaws are greatly overlooked because it was a fresh story.
@@CzarsSalad never heard anyone criticize season 1 before to be honest; very unique outlook. The show was very clearly meant to be 2 seasons, so Ambessa's addition doesn't remove anything from the preexisting episodes, but further adds upon them and the characterization of Mel/the other Piltovans. It adds tension and provides backstory as to why Mel is how she is and why she's in Piltover. It also shows how she gets her manipulative side which I think is an amazing touch. Ambessa takes existing characters to heights they could not reach writing wise, and she herself is very well written
@@Eggroll3sthey did a 3 act structure of Season 1. The 3rd act was supposed to be used to RESOLVE the story. It's a fundamental rule in storytelling that you don't introduce a new character in the 3rd act.
@@CzarsSalad okay, this was impossible to address because your comment was completely different before you edited it and had way less information. You can introduce characters in an act 3 setting if they're important to the 2nd season, which she was. When people say act 3, they don't mean a typical act 3. Season 1 is halfway through the story, not a conclusion. Saying that they added a new character during the resolution is objectively incorrect. On top of this, which minor characters got big arcs exactly? Edit: just wanted to add something to emphasize my point: do you think making the conflict even worse was the resolution? Jinx blew up the council before the story's resolution could've been made
@@nickl9461 I think it's disingenuous to say that you understand why I like it, then say I'm wrong. I'm open for discussion, but I don't think it's right to talk in an objective way about subjective material
@CzarsSalad if they didn't like a tv show, that's fine, no need to use slurs. They can explain why or not, I don't really care. It's up to the other party to reciprocate dialogue
@@ergovoks5200 how is it copium? I wrote an entire script explaining why I thought this way and stated in the video itself that I understood why people had gripes with the show. The whole point of the video is me explaining why I, specifically, love the season, addressing common criticisms to do that. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they're dumb for thinking differently, but relating to them by telling them that I understand why they think this season was a letdown even if I did not
I feel the explanations made sense. I'm interested if you saw the context provided pointed another direction(maybe nowhere) or just didn't care to see it.
@@myplace4play how is it cope if I made an entire video explaining why I think it's good while saying that I understand people who don't like it? That sounds like a constructed point, not cope
@CzarsSalad let's not use ableist slurs in my comment section please. People can talk however they'd like, as bad as it is. I'll handle their discussions if they get too negative or inappropriate, but please keep any foul language to a minimum
@@Eggroll3s You didn't adress major problems like character assasination (the only character who survived writers' incopmpitance was Marcus, and only because he's as dead as possible, death didn't save Silco of this fate though)
16:53 I had to record this in post because the audio cut out originally which is why it sounds so bad. Same with 24:34, but that's because it's a post editing outro. Hope it isn't too bad!
Update: I've just noticed the claims for some of the clips used in this video, so I'll be blurring or covering them in post. Apologies for being required to do that, and the first section of the video being quieter than the rest of the video (around the first 5-6 minutes)
Whether people see it bad or not, I believe everyone should have the right to enjoy it or not no matter the complaints. Everyone is different, and should be able to love the parts they do. For me, this season captured how people change very well, and when going through things, have hard conflicts within themselves which change them. As someone who is indecisive, I understood Caitlyn very well as I have struggled with hating/accepting someone in my life.
@@reduxxedr incredible point that I've been trying to say as much as possible. People think the point of this video is to change their minds, but it isn't; it's meant to state my thoughts on this show that means so much to me while telling people who dislike the final few episodes why I think they dislike it and the fact that I understand them. The dislikes are okay, people aren't required to enjoy the same media
@ I definitely agree
All I have to say is "There is beauty imperfections." ...
But also "In the pursuit of great, we forgot to do good." 😂jkjk
that’s why do good not great, even though good isn’t perfect but they’re beautiful.
I wonder how much of the criticism I see is a vocal minority and natural result of something gaining wider popularity. I've yet to see a nuanced objective criticism...it usually boils down to expectations and entitlement.
A lot of it is valid, but there was one review I saw that was so abhorrent I had to pause midway to take a step back. He said his criticisms weren't nitpicks and people are wrong/stupid or whatever, then proceeds to complain about things like Caitlyn's 5 person strike team being so small and Caitlyn not accurately using a mirror to look at Jinx? Like who cares? It's stuff like that that shows people don't know what they're talking about
@@Eggroll3s it was cinema sins?
@@ohbabybaby4087no, but the guy made a cinema sins style video as well. It was really bad
But the probelm with aeason 2 IS the focus on plot.
Season 1 was so great because the characters journey allows the plot to happen.
Season 2 feels hollow because the plot shoves so many character moments that could have happened to the wayside.
Also WAY too many things happen offscreen.
Ambessa's motivations don't make any sense, pretty much the whole time. She was just a vehicle to delived the climactiv action scene they wanted
@@yungthunder2681 that's what I said in my video. The problem people have with it is the shift from a character focused plot to a plot focused story. As for things happening off screen, I get what you're saying. I feel like they did more than enough, but people wanted more out of stuff like timebomb. Ambessa I don't get why people dislike her. I explain in my video that her motivation is very clear and she will stop at nothing to obtain it, no matter the cost. She's been this way since season 1. I appreciate the response, it's nice to see alternative takes
Loss of Political focus: oppressed for two centuries, forced them to suffer and work for the upper class who lives in a high castle, never gets hungry, and incredible rich because of the oppressed lower class. Silco wanted independence, probalby he just sat on the top of the food chain, and nothing woudl have changed. However Jinxed blowed up the aggrement. The Chembarons turned against each other, consequently all of them failed, because they only could have been strong enough together. However there were rebellion, and consequently even more suppression. The Pilties invited a foreing force to make the lower class life even more unbearable. And when the Pilties suddenly found themselves against a god like being supported by the Ambessa's Noxian forces, they reached for the lower class. Whom first realistically seemed leaving the city (I mean offering the route out is itself a fantasy), but than turning their back to the freedom, and going back to fight for their oppressors ws the real fantasy. 1789 Paris, the perfect example. I don't really see, how the oppressed working class would fought for the Bourbons. They fought for the Republic, for Napoleon, but not for the Bourbons. They would have fought for Jinx or maybe Ekko. But for Caitlyn, for an enforcer? Don't be ridiculous. And if Jinx or Ekko said to them, we have to fight for the Pilties, they would turnt their bakc to them. Season 1 started as a realistc show with fantasy elements, Season 2 ended up as a fantasy show with some realistic elements.
I need deeper explanation than your 2 unconvincing mins
Oh, and letting Sevike to sit in the council where 1 represents the working class, 7 the upper class, what chance does she has? If her word could habve veto in every matter, maybe, but I don't think the aristocracy would go that far. She became a useful idiot for the upper class. By the way, noone listened to Sevike when she tried to make a speech by Vander's statue, whom does she represent than? It's a facade. If they'd show how another chembaron takes over the control and everything goes back to the way it was before, it'd have been realistic. The upper class never does anything for the lower class, till the lower class don't rebell and fight for their rights. Just look hwere are we again. Look how the modern capitalist burgoise use the poor to keep them in power
I agree with this, but I also heavily disagree. The Zaunites never fought for just Piltover, they mainly fought for the Zaunite people. They knew that if they did not stop Viktor and Ambessa, they, and possibly everyone, would be stripped of their individualism through Viktor's unity. The point of me bringing up the way they look at Sevika is supposed to show that political unrest in the finale which people didn't seem to understand even though I said it very clearly. You speak of the "2 minutes" I use to talk about this subject but that's because I didn't want to spend so much time covering something that wasn't something I could combat as easily as the other three points. I agree with Silco not doing anything because he became like the Piltovans by taking control of Zaun and oppressing these people. What I don't agree with is the fact that the Zaunites fought for Piltover. You use the example of 1789 Paris and that's exactly what happened here. They didn't fight for the Piltovans, or at least mainly for Piltover, but they clearly fought for Zaun. Sevika failed to rally Zaun without the help of Jinx (in the case of episode 4, Isha, who represents the idea of Jinx), but the finale shows the Zaunite people who left the Piltovan meeting rally against Ambessa and Viktor to fight for the people of Zaun, only fighting for Piltover by proxy. As for Sevika having a say at the table, that doesn't matter because she's at the table. This does a lot for her and Caitlyn's character
I loved season 2, but admittedly I initially conceded a bit on the Caitlyn complaints, because she does seemingly switch on a dime at the commune, even though I did pick up on her subtle resistance to Ambessa's fascism. I read some people essentially framing it as Cait turning just because she's such a simp for Vi. But, after mulling it over a bit, I think she did oppose Ambessa the whole time, as you said, but got swept up in everything and didn't feel brave enough to really stand up to Ambessa. Then she stumbles across Vi, a person she has framed as inspirational and brave to the Enforcers...Vi provides Cait with both a cause for action and the bravery to take it. She chose that moment to make her move not because she's horny for Vi, but because Vi inspires her to be brave.
The problem is that we aren't shown at any point Caitlyn going against Ambessa right up until she reunites with Vi.
She had disagreements with her but never outright opposes her actions in any significant way. Cait even went to Stillwater and saw the carnage Warwick caused. But because Vi told her he was her dad, she still just flips.
This isn't "show, don't tell", we're neither shown, nor told.
@@brian0057 she does do this though. We see it through implicit details like her facial expressions and how she reacts to things like in episode 4. I stated all of these in my video with examples (although, some are hard to see because I had to blur it out). This is also reemphasizing in the final act: "she oinked poison in your ear and you just took it" "I know".
Also, she doesn't object Ambessa out of fear because Ambessa has the army, but also because she's so hyperfixated on Jinx to the point where she ignores everything else.
@@brian0057 She also flat out DOES oppose her with her actions. The scene when Ambessa recruits Singed comes to mind...Cait showing up there to basically say "I see what you're doing" and then being prepared to shoot him despite knowing Ambessa wants to use him.
@@Eggroll3s
I agree that she's hyperfixated with Jinx. It makes sense and it's in character.
But I dont agree that she's afraid of Ambessa. When Caitlyn talks back to Salo at the end of Episode 1, the reaction shot of Ambessa told me she was impressed with her.
So when she nominated Cait for commander, it made total sense to me. Because she wasn't some pushover like Salo. Ambessa didn't want a simple puppet. She wanted someone strong under her control. Cait doesn't underestimate her, but she never seems to be afraid of her.
This is why her going with Vi in episode 6 seems so jarring. Maybe an extra scene of her talking with Maddie about scheming to undermine Ambessa would've made it much better. And it would've reinforced Maddie's betrayal in Act III so much more.
@@kyu2o337
Yes, but that ultimately leads nowhere. Ambessa doesn't even stop her.
After Singed tells his story about his daughter and shows them, Singed still goes with them and still trying to hunt Warwick.
That's why I say Cait never opposes Ambessa in any significant way. It's not until Vi shows up that she flips.
Season 2 was good but honestly those last two episodes just had me asking “How did we get here?”.
If you think about it season 1 was about jinx and vi, the relationship between two sisters with some magic and politics here and there. But season 2 had this dramatic shift, jinx and vi no longer felt like the main focus of the show and it felt like the new main focus was the high tops.
One of my biggest issues with season 2 is not seeing viktor more during his transformation. He gets injured, heals, then comes back 5 episodes later being the messiah god sent leader cultist having super powers to heal anyone and anything. I understand how he became like that, I just hate the fact we barely see any of this.
Another issue was vander, I felt like introducing him as a reborn monster was just lazy writing to have some sort of plot to make Vi on jinx’s side again. Not only that what was the whole point of jinx’s friend Isha sacrificing herself if he literally comes back an episode later
And I’m sorry but you can’t convince me ambessa was interesting or fun to watch after the few episodes later she was introduced. The same can be said about any of the other hightops that weren’t caitlyn, jayce, viktor or heimerdinger.
I wished the show just stuck to what it was. A relationship between two sisters with magic and politics. And in season 2 it never felt like there was a true conclusion for them.
I agree I can’t help but feel a real reason season 2 didn’t hit for so many people was because the political aspect of the piltover and Zaun relationship is built up in the beginning of season 2, showing how Piltover due to rebel/terrorist attacks is becoming more and more facist, however the dynamic is basically scrapped in order for piltover + zaun to fight amnesia and victor, entirely changing the expected but more importantly set up conflict we wanted to see, this made the way the story is taken feel one of strange and out of left field in my opinion
@@bananaananab3916 Exactly😭 So many plot points forgotten or not fleshed out enough just ruined season 2.
@@jack33317 The first season was ultimately a tale of two sisters, but politics was the key focus as the struggle between Piltover and Zaun influenced every crevice of every character and decision. I get what you mean when you say it's not the main focus because it ultimately does take a backseat to cover grander ideas. As for Viktor, I can't really argue against that as I thought it was great and the opinion you have is perfectly valid. Vander/Warwick is kind of meant to be that in a sense. The reason why it's actually well made, in my opinion, is the fact that Warwick is designed to be the bridge between Vi and Jinx. Even though they're sisters, they do not fit well together and, after the first act of the show, we never see them together again without a mediator or reason like Vander or Isha. It's a fleeting moment that they want to strip away as fast as it came, and I think that's awesome. Also, just to clear up, Vander didn't come back. He died in the commune as Warwick's remaining blood was used to heal Viktor, with Warwick's lifeless corpse being used like a puppet. The sacrifice wasn't lessened because the message and point was still there, and, even if Warwick didn't die, Isha destroyed enough to allow them to escape to safety. She's the Powder who never was. Honestly, for the rest of your points, I totally understand it. The show differs from season 1 which, even though I love, people can see as extremely jarring. If you want a show focused on relationships and politics, I think you should watch Andor. Season 2 comes out next year I believe and season 1 is a masterpiece. I appreciate the comment a lot though. So many people are saying random negative garbage without giving reason as to why they don't like it, so there's no dialogue to be had. I like discussing things with people which is why I made this video in the first place. I really appreciate your comment, thank you.
@@bananaananab3916 I addressed this in my video by saying that I can't actually counter this criticism because it's not wrong. Even if the political focus has taken a backseat and is still really good in my opinion, it's not the main focus which, for a lot of people, can be so jarring. I totally understand why people don't like this. Thank you for actually stating why you don't enjoy aspects of Arcane instead of just commenting with random negativity
Yeah and then apparently only 2 people from the writers of season one worked on season 2 due to the writing strike
Appreciate the calm and astute observations, keep it up!
In regards to pacing, I believe it's a very broad and subjective topic. It can entail a fast rhythm, missing beats to ensure a natural progression, overwhelming information to fully digest and more. Although I had no issues following the story, I was perplexed at the direction it was going. At times it moved too erratically without proper anticipation, as if the writers intended a specific destination without fleshing out the journey to it, making it feel unearned or forced into a preconceived narrative. In my view, it became very apparent with the sister's reunion in ep5, albeit a very critical moment, it wasn't sold very effectively with how little substance they devoted to reach that point.
Viktor's arc is difficult to unpack, but for me it boils down to his pursuit of ending all suffering. He realized that no matter how healthy we are, the seed of evil is planted much deeper in the human essence, therefore we'll never vanquish it unless we abandon our very nature. Like you elaborated, this comes at the cost of erasing all individuality and agency to ensure a peaceful, but also stagnant and purposeless outcome. There's much more to this idea, would love to hear your two cents on this.
Although implicit storytelling is often praised for its artistic flair, one caveat if executed poorly is widening the range of interpretation and undercompensate. S2 has a mixed reception, those who absolutely love it to those who despise it, while both enjoyed the first season. While mostly caused by shifting the focus from characters to plot, which didn't work for those who specifically liked it for the former, I reckon it's also due to how the abstruse structure led people to spin their own narrative around it to justify their feelings. It's not necessarily a critique to the show, but it highlights how if people want to see the good or bad parts in it, they can. I've seen plenty of postive discourse, yet it's very variegated and I find it hard to assess what the writers truly meant or whether it was the viewer's perception.
I totally understand all of these complaints. My brother (who I mentioned in the video) talks about how Arcane's second season isn't long enough to flesh out certain things without feeling like point A to point B. He also states that implicit stories don't work in situations like this because these are "major story beats that shouldn't be treated like afterthoughts". As for Viktor, there's a lot more regarding his ego and loneliness, like when he says to Sky "I will miss our talks" with her replying "No, you won't." Viktor used her notes to validate his ego, only caring about her death after reading them. It's small things like these that enhance these characters so much and make them seem real, even with their already deep character arcs. Appreciate the comment, thank you for discussing!
I wouldn't call it a masterpiece under any circumstance, but it was really good, still. But I need to rewatch the whole thing again to be sure.
That's perfectly okay! I love differing opinions and would love to hear your thoughts post rewatch
I feel the criticism it could have been two seasons instead of one, covering the exact same story beats overall, should have been addressed. It’s not just me who says this, either; I’m aware it’s not that simple but it’s worth commenting on at least.
I don't think it's big enough to be honest. My main response would be what I've been saying in the comments: more episodes would've been better since more content means we can flesh more things out. This ties back into the idea of bad pacing
I don't think the pacing is the issue. The ammount of information they needed to tell the story simply didn't fit in 9 40-minute long episodes. The montages helped a lot but we missed transitional scenes and the time to take us from point A to point D. B and C were simply skipped and left to our imagination or simply removed. The episodes needed to be longer. I wouldn't change anything to the story. I would simply add scenes, dialogue and character interactions to deliver it better.
I can behind this. I actually said it in my video, so I totally understand why people think this
You're describing a pacing issue. Story beats are like speed bumps that pace the story down, and the story is missing a lot of them which is what makes it feel rushed
@@chrishaven1489 Bad pacing can be argued about shows that mismanage their available time. Think of the Rings of Power whose pacing was atrocious. The last 4 episodes of House of the Dragon season 2 had bad pacing as well. They wasted time on bullshit and failed to fit the plot of the last two episodes that were cut from the story. Arcane managed to have a story thst needed at least 3 more hours of screentime done in the same timeframe as season 1. It's a studio problem.
it's overall a lot to process. I think it's a fraction as good as season 1 which still makes it a masterpiece, but it definitely gets better with every rewatch. for the record I've watched the entire first season in full over 6 times not counting the times I go back to individual episodes. I've only done 1 rewatch of season 2 not counting individual acts and episodes, but that will defnitly change. I'm learning new things with every rewatch, and by watching analyses from others with more runeterra knowledge. that's another thing. season 2 is more reliant on pre-existing runeterra lore with characters such as leblanc, janna, and swain, kinda. but the more the second season encourages me to seek out and learn about runeterra itself, the more I have to appreciate.
Honestly I think quite a large bit of complaints come from people who are kinda hyped up on the internet hate train(not that there aren’t criticisms of course) but there were videos saying it sucks within like a day of it ending which at least to me doesn’t sound like enough time to gather your thoughts properly
But I dunno, at least for me, over these past few weeks I’ve really come to appreciate what the show has done amazingly but also understand some issues. Overall I’d still say it’s peak cinema but that’s my thoughts🤷♀️
From the opening scene you'd think arcane was primarily about political conflict. Season 2s ending had some of that but it was mostly just pinning all the blame on Ambessa. Like piltover hadnt been oppressing them before she started stoking the flames. "No amount of good deeds can undo our crimes!!" Screams Caitlyn the military dictator who gassed civilians with toxic chemicals 😊
I like how she says "our" here yet she's the one who gets no judicial repercussions for her actions
@@WithoutFear804 it was an ending about unity which does conclude the political plot but some think it's weak. I personally think it's weak ONLY IF Viktor doesn't exist. I get why people don't like them setting aside their differences to fight against a greater enemy. In a solely political show, it'd feel weak, but I think it works here because of the themes of humanity
S1 gets better and more coherent the more you look. S2 gets worse and less coherent the more you look. I was disappointed with S2. But only because it was a disservice to S1. If it existed on its own it would be fine.
Perfectly understandable complaint. Some wish the story stayed grounded even if they liked season 2 which I cannot argue against
Arcane is a masterpiece
Something that’s kinda telling to me from a production standpoint is that season 1 and 2 are the exact same length, 370 minutes, but the episodes are different lengths. So that, mixed with the creators saying stuff was cut a bunch just SCREAMS to me “hey we really wanted to do (x) but Netflix only gave us a set amount of time so we had to compromise” and I just feel bad for the writers honestly
Sir, If the writer hadn't killed her, the little girl who couldn't talk, then I would have really loved this season. Now I can't even sleep and want to die every day…
I'm only partially a sir lol. RIP Isha. She was a real one
This may be a rambly hot take and is a little random, but I really dislike how starved for actual "good" content most audience members are nowadays, that they just so carelessly throw out these bold claims and fancy words on the regular now like, "It was a masterpiece" or "So immaculate" for the most bare minimum effort of work. Nothing is perfect and you can like something as much as you want but masterpiece is a really really high bar, almost nothing can reach that in my personal opinion. However what gets me is almost everything that releases at this point is deemed a masterpiece so long as it's not utter garbage or isn't as bad as other stuff we've had these recent years past. Or the excuse, "You start to like it on your third or fourth watch" is especially heinous, because doesn't that mean you're just forcing yourself to like it? I don't get it. You shouldn't have to rewatch something over and over to like it or even get the point the movie/show is trying to make. It makes me kind of sad to see people see the state of things and just kinda coping with it instead of still wanting to recieve the better quality we expect...
@@haleyrose9751 I honestly 100% agree. The people who know me know that I have an EXTREMELY high bar for media because I've indulged in both good media and previously extremely bad media. We have such limited time that I refuse to indulge in boring mediocre slop, and I really despise those who say "masterpiece". There are really only two or maybe even three shows at most that have reached that level for me, and even those have flaws. I don't know if this was directed at me or not, so my statement is pretty general. I think anyone can think anything is a masterpiece, but I've seen people dish out 10/10 and 9/10 to like, almost everything they see and it's extremely annoying. Indulging in slop gives these creators more incentive to make slop, no matter the type of media you're indulging in. Even if people disliked Arcane, they can't deny that it changed the game with revolutionary animation, budget usage, scale, voice acting, etc.
On another note about your "third or fourth watch" point: that's why I can't like one piece. The concept is cool, the designs are cool, it's theoretically pretty cool, but it's way too long and people saying "oh yeah wait until you get to episode 200 that's when it kicks off" are insane. Like, 200??? That's longer than all of Hunter x Hunter's 2011 anime adaptation which in of itself is a masterpiece of literacy
Well, you are entitled to your opinion, personally I do call Arcane a masterpiece and don't remember even give that title to any other show, so i dont really use it lightly.
I also don't see many people using that word that much, but im also not looking every corner of the internet so i could be wrong.
I'm just going to pretend that S2 doesn't exist. 👀
That said, if anyone else loves S2, good for them! I'm always incredibly happy to see the excitement others have over the things they like. Plus, the fandom is massive. There's room for everyone.
Also adding that regardless whether or not I liked S2, the general work put into it is phenomenal. The art, the music, the painstaking effort of everyone involved to see this product get made. So much respect. 👍
I really enjoyed this season. I have some issues with it, but there’s a lot to love too. Those who praise the second season as a masterpiece _and_ those who have far less favorable criticisms and complaints both tend to make solid arguments that I agree with (or at least understand).
I’d call it a rushed masterpiece. Too ambitious or too rushed, take your pick (I pick too rushed) but it’s a masterpiece for what they accomplished.
I don’t agree that season 2 isn’t rushed - but I do agree that the pacing isn’t actually the problem. It’s just that the pacing is somewhat linked to situations like how Vi lacked that tug and pull you were talking about.
That’s my only real gripe with Season 2 though. Rushed, but a masterpiece in spite of that.
Watching arcane to consume this video properly
9:50
I wonder why Cait did not ask it herself when she was gassing innocent people
@@mishan3168 ask what herself? The timestamp you linked is Ambessa being manipulative. She was not affiliated with Ambessa prior to the finale of episode 3
@Eggroll3s i don't like to pretend like it's all Ambessa. Cait was ready for violence too. And yet, thanks to plot device aka isha, it's also was wrapped up
@@mishan3168 no one is saying it's only Ambessa. In the video I state that what Caitlyn's doing is wrong
I also despise the use of "plot device". People act like it's a negative. Isha is a "plot device" but so what? She's used in an extremely well made way to further Jinx's character to heights that couldn't be seen without her
@@Eggroll3s i disagree about Isha being used well.
When in reality it just did nothing.
One damn child could not fix all jinx mental problems. Also creators completely downplayed influence Shimmer makes on brain.
THEY just where afraid to turn jinx in the real villain and wrapped up all her development. Because jinx is best girl, face of league of legends. She can't be that brutal terrorist now.
@@Eggroll3s Could you elaborate more on the specific 'heights' that you felt Jinx couldn't reach without Isha's character in the story?
I don't think the pacing criticism is about them not hinting/telling the details of the story, but rather for things to "feel" like they have weight.
If you show me 3s of a character development it doesn't have as much relevance as seeing that character change. This happens with many things, I kept getting a bit lost of alliances and whatnot of people because they changed every half -season- episode following a look in someone eyes or similar.
You can be subtle like that sometimes, but if you do it all the time, you end up losing more and more people.
I'm a fanboy of the series, and while I like it a lot, I feel like s2 act3 didn't matter half of what s1 act3 did. And part if it was because so many things were happening at once, that I didn't care for half of them anymore. I have friends that like the series but are not fanboys, and they directly didn't like the season, and I get it, part of me liking it is that I made a great effort to do so because I was very attached to s1.
So IMHO they use the credit that they got from s1 and burned it here to shove as many stories as possible in a 20 min show, for some people the credit was enough, but for some other people the credit was not enough. I was actually very happy on act1/2, for me the jumped the shark on act 3, where nothing seemed relevant anymore mostly for the pacing, but I still love the show as a whole.
EDIT: season -> episode
@@mikel-zzzz the criticism I stated was about the lack of explicit story beats that could've been there if it was longer. I used the example of Vi because we're supposed to know what she's like without the internal tug-and-pull I wish existed more. It feels like she just goes to Vander after a few scuffles with Jinx because we never see her have the dichotomy. My little thought tree said in his video that he wishes there was something small like Vi disagreeing with Jinx, seeing the mural, then deciding to help her with Vander. Something small like that would emphasize so much more than what is already really well presented in my opinion. I stated in the video as well that I'm admittedly a bit biased because I'm very immersed in the universe, so I quickly grasp aspects of it that require further analysis. That's why I understand if people criticize Arcane for things that should theoretically be very explicit
8:05
Well, even though montages is trying to do work. Whole nature of Montage itself, can't let you feel emotional weight of this events.
There's no build up. Things just happening.
The montage was built up since the end of season 1. It is the cultivation of Jinx's actions and the consequence it brought on Zaun. It also acts as a buildup towards Cait's betrayal
@Eggroll3s they wrap conflict between city anyway. So it doesn't matter now
@@mishan3168 that's not really true which I cover in the video
@@Eggroll3s sure buddy
Arcane is peak
Arcane Season 2 is a mess, but I understand why you like it.
I think one extra episode would have been enough
Totally valid point. I think an extra episode to enhance what we know would've been amazing as well
S2 is really terribly written.
@@jamida5287 why do you think so?
I am seeing a lot of legitimate criticism, and I can see where people are missing the cohesion of season 1. But for most of the issues I see raised, I feel like I was understanding some things they weren't. Certain criticisms even feel to me like people weren't paying attention enough or just missed implicit context(from body language, visuals, etc) and were just going by dialogue alone and not the meaning or intention behind it.
This might not make sense, but I think it was a masterpiece subjectively, but probably 7.5/8/10 objectively. I do feel the scale of season 2 is too grand, and would have liked it to be more grounded, but still thoroughly enjoyed.
I agree with almost everything, but I don't think a show can have an objective score. It goes against the concept of subjectivity because of the way we understand literature
@@Eggroll3s I get that. I just figured that score from a technical perspective: story/plot cohesion, animation/music quality, etc
If masters can make mistakes I suppose it could be considered a master peace. Story trobes, world building and message are indead brilliant. Tho with the mistakes in pacing it doesn't show properly. Also they should have let Vender be dead. Come on, let the guy rest. It didnt at to what he stood for, only made it less
@@pellekuipers6856 I get why people don't like Vander being alive, I didn't like it at first either until a few days after act 2 aired. Someone who likes the show described it to me as "the most flawed 10/10 ever" which I think fits your description perfectly.
I suspected Vander was going to be fused with Singed's creation at the end of season 1, but they definitely made him a hybrid character which was a strange angle. I suppose he would otherwise have just been a random Zaunite baddie that would drive plot development anyway, so not sure how else they could have approached it.
@@Eggroll3sHaha, "the most flawed 10/10"-accurate. Yeah, I think the moment they heard they were getting one more season, they should’ve gone back to the writing room with one question: "What did Season 1 promise?" I wrote an essay about this, hehe. Promises like the polarization of Piltover and Zaun or the relationship between Vi and Jinx, or Victor and Hextech
I mean if you see it's flaws and why a lot of people hate then is it a Masterpiece? for me the word masterpiece is something I'd reserve for something that is so objectively well made that even people who personally don't enjoy it can't say that it isn't. Like Pride and Prejudice is too girly for me but it's still a masterpiece. Arcane season 2 is the opposite there is really no good defence for it's flaws and people like it purely subjectively.
@@moe5020 I never said I see the flaws, that's not what this video is about. I'm stating how I understand why people feel this way, and I cannot (and will not) take that away from them. Nothing can be "objectively well made" because literature is subjective by nature. I have no idea what another show being too "girly" has to do with Arcane, but sure. You're saying that my opinion is subjective, there isn't a good defense for the flaws these people have, and my opinion is purely subjective. Like, yeah, it is. By nature, opinions are subjective. You can acknowledge positives in a work which is what you call "objectively well made" but that's not objective.
What I've gotten is that people who liked season 2 seem to just operate on the concept of the entire show is quote" show. Don't tell and they use that because it allows them to superimpose their own thoughts, opinions and viewpoints on what's being expressed in this show instead of this show just openly expressing these thoughts and opinions as a result of this people could just superimpose that this is good because my superimposed vision of the story has been confirmed through these visual aids and not been holistically rejected by the story telling me what it explicitly wants to say
I mean you tried to say that the fight between Vi and Jinx was just a few "scuffles" Vi set Jinx up so that Catlin could take a kill shot on her. Thats not a scuffle that is attempted murder. Jesus mercy.
The scuffles are referring to episode 5. That is after Vi's montage. This was made very clear in the context of the video and the script, and was further emphasized through my inclusion of another video using this exact same concept. I don't want to be rude to anyone in the comments, but a lot of these responses have been people watching 5 minutes of my video then commenting on everything when it's factually incorrect. I'm not saying you're doing it specifically, but it's very annoying that this is a consistent theme with RUclips video essay or analyses. The concept that I'm "superimposing" these ideas is wrong because I'm actively looking at what the show has given me and my preexisting knowledge regarding literature and these characters while also tying it to what these characters say and how they act. That's what I did in this video. I said during my conclusion that the show is very implicit and that is a flaw to a lot of people, but I love that because it allows me to get personally involved in this world and look through the eyes of the characters. What you're saying has been addressed in the video but is ultimately wrong because I literally critique the show's usage of this in my video when talking about Vi's lack of internal tug-and-pull and how I wished, even if I was perfectly okay with what we got, there was a bit more to emphasize this.
@@Eggroll3s "The scuffles are referring to episode 5. That is after Vi's montage. This was made very clear in the context of the video and the script, and was further emphasized through my inclusion of another video using this exact same concept. " See that's the issue with your whole video. You hyper focus on one aspect/moment of the show and use it to justify a whole area of the show. Allow me to focus on Vi and the montage argument. Vi leading up to this montage has openly tried to kill her sister with her own hands, Set her sister up to assassinated by her Catlin via sniper shot, Helped Catlin use a biological weapon (Yes using the The Gray on people is a form of biological terrorism fight me on it) on her own people to go hunting for Jinx; again Vi's own sister and then finally got dumped via domestic violence. (Yes Catlin gut checking Vi with the butt of a rifle is domestic violence, again fight me on that.), and finally there's Loris the obvious Vander stand in who's there when Vi has her pit fighting Montage. He is there backing her up supporting her. Hinting at a mentor mentee relationship remaniement of her relationship with Vander Yet that goes nowhere and later one he is just killed. Yet you try to hand wave all of this away when she just bounces back when Jinx mentions Vander. When people mention her montage glosses over things, the things what I listed is what they are talking about.
This statement here " The concept that I'm "superimposing" these ideas is wrong because I'm actively looking at what the show has given me and my preexisting knowledge regarding literature and these characters while also tying it to what these characters say and how they act. That's what I did in this video." Is the biggest example of an appeal to credentialism that I'm not going to even touch this Logical fallacy of an argument.
How is this " I said during my conclusion that the show is very implicit and that is a flaw to a lot of people, but I love that because it allows me to get personally involved in this world and look through the eyes of the characters." Not the textbook example of superimposing your own thoughts, opinions and viewpoints on what's being expressed in this show instead of this show just openly expressing these thoughts and opinions?
Finally I did watch your whole video however it was nothing but unbacked up claims and opinions that i didnt mention it but Ill entertain you for a moment. Your Caitlyn and Ambessa section was almost 12 mins of you openly rejecting what was appearing on the show. You made the claim that Caitlyn didn't order Marshall Law when Both Ambessa and Maddie said she did ordered it and she didn't correct them either one of them when the claim was made. However, because you don't have a moment where you see Caitlin directly ordering the marshall law you have the wherewithal to say at 8:32-8:33 "We never see Catlin actually imposing Marshall Law" Why say this? Did you need to see Catlin out in the streets to know she is the one who implemanted Marshall Law? She is in Charge, the Marshall Law wouldn't happen without her direct say so. That was the whole reason for Ambessa to put Catlin in charge so that if the people were to blame anyone for the Marshall law it would be the person in charge i.e. Catlin.
@darklightimages so, just to confirm, what am I rejecting here? Do you understand what I was saying about Vi's character? She had no way of getting to her goal without hurting anyone close to her, so she chose the easiest route: Caitlyn's Strike Team. She's complicit and lacks identity as everything she does is for someone that isn't herself. She has no purpose or identity which is the point of the montage. No one is denying that she tried to kill Jinx, but she couldn't and stopped Caitlyn because she saw Powder in Isha and would also prefer to not kill an innocent child. This isn't me hyperfixating on one @darklightimages so, just to confirm, what am I rejecting here? Do you understand what I was saying about Vi's character? She had no way of getting to her goal without hurting anyone close to her, so she chose the easiest route: Caitlyn's Strike Team. She's complicit and lacks identity as everything she does is for someone that isn't herself. She has no purpose or identity which is the point of the montage. No one is denying that she tried to kill Jinx, but she couldn't and stopped Caitlyn because she saw Powder in Isha and would also prefer to not kill an innocent child. I didn't hyperfixate on anything, I stated the entirety of Vi's internal struggle using examples from previous episodes to explain why what happened makes sense. The irony of you mentioning how I'm fixating on one point only for you to fixate on one irrelevant point where I quite literally agree with your statement as a conclusion/opinion to a greater point is pretty weird if I'm being completely honest. Second, how is what I said an appeal to credentials? I don't think you understand that statement because I'm not discrediting you, nor am I stating anything equivalent to that or something along the lines of "well if they said it, it must be true!" I'm using preexisting knowledge that I have over years of analysis to deconstruct what I PERSONALLY think is good about the show, but I understand if people don't like certain aspects of the show. That's not superimposing, that's not appealing to any credentials, that's called an opinion. Literature is inherently subjective and the point of this video is to explain why I enjoy it even if I understand why people are criticizing it. Not everything is for everyone, not everyone will like everything. I don't understand how that message was hard to grasp for so many people in the comment section. Literature is created to be analyzed and interpreted. You saying that people "superimposing" their thoughts and ideas is a bad thing is the reason why people struggle with interpretation and meaning. Something so small can mean many different things to many different people, so I was explaining MY interpretation of the show. That's not something unique to me. Unbacked claims? I showed footage explaining everything done before Caitlyn's switch up to prove why I was saying what I was saying. Even if I entertain your idea that she did impose all of those martial laws and didn't oppose Ambessa at all (when the clip I showed is her opposing Ambessa), how does that take away from my point? The point isn't "she's good guys!" The point is "hey, this is actually very in line for her to do, here's why" with a lot of evidence to earlier episodes and even the previous season. It's really baffling how confident you are with wanting to make me look stupid only to hyperfixate on interpretations that are, frankly, just used as a bit of extra support to my claims unlike my usage of actual scenes that we see in the show where people say exactly what I'm saying.
Also, I don't know what the "fight me on it" stuff is about but it's kinda odd lmao. All I'll say is that, no, it's not domestic violence. She's not beating her, she hits her with the edge of her rifle in the liver to prevent Vi from stopping her. Your statement feels kind of disingenuous and frankly offensive to actual domestic abuse victims if I'm being honest. It's completely unneeded as an addition to support your argument as well
I loved it, but there were some plot lines that were rushed while others could and should have been cut.
@@MildMisanthropeMaybeMassive I can totally understand that. The show is very implicit in nature and I think it requires a lot of analysis for what people think should be basic story elements which creates this idea of a rushed story. I do wish they had more content but it sucks that Netflix gave them a forced time limit
@@Eggroll3s I don't think that describing the show as just having a 'very implicit nature' can be enough of a defence for what ultimately culminates to poor writing and structure on the writers' part in my opinion. And this argument gets a little shaky when you consider that the line between a story being 'implicit' and not actually showing/telling its story can be very thin. Even considering the implications of the scenes you described in your video, that for you, fill in the blanks of these characters' arcs sufficiently enough, there are still gaping holes in the narrative, character developments'/dynamics as well as in the plot - the last of which being something I was willing to look past should the show have stuck the landing with exploring its themes conclusively; which, to me, it didn't. For a plot-driven season, it doesn't do well in needling a comprehensive narrative thread without plot holes, which the harder you look at (specifically those regarding time, the multiverse, Silco and Vander's history etc.), the more the story, its themes and characters wither away.
And regardless of what the story is implying, if stakes aren't felt and important character moments given room to breath, the 'weight' of each character beat won't be felt. If you can't convey weight and emotional stakes then how are you going to get your audience to care about anything happening on screen? I am not saying for the writers to hold the audience's hand through it. I am saying that the writers didn't let the audience live the story through their characters' eyes and instead remained so implicit in their story-telling (especially for those that do not follow the game's lore) so as to estrange the audience, leaving them behind on character's decisions and motivations and forcing them to extrapolate on what they think is going on during big and small events. And this is why S1, a character-driven story worked, where S2 didn't. Plot-driven stories are structured around the events that need to occur to progress the story forward, often leaving behind emotional pathos, leading to characters doing and saying things that don't feel earned e.g., Jinx and Ekko joining forces and joining the battle in Piltover against Viktor and Ambessa's army within an instant of the two meeting and Ekko reversing time enough times to prevent Jinx's suicide. Mind you, these two almost killed each other in their previous scene together in Season 1. No further exploration of the conversation that they could have had that would not only make Jinx rethink suicide but encourage her to join the cause is quite a bizarre narrative choice.
Another glaring example of poor writing that I cannot get past is the one of Ep. 9 when Jinx is actually shown to not have died, after a sacrificial act of saving Vi's life and instead is shown to have escaped and supposedly left the world of Piltover/Zaun on her own. It is indicated that Caitlin figures this out but not that Vi knows that her sister is still alive. I have seen a lot of people say that it was necessary for Vi to believe that her sister was dead as that was the only means through which she would have let her go. With one of the greatest aspects of Vi's arc being that she needs to learn to let go of loved ones and learn what it means to live for herself, not just for others, without feeling immense guilt/regret and responsibility/blame for what happens to them and neither having to face severe consequences and great loss as a result, it is a cheap way to force her to essentially 'move on' and simply 'let go' of her sister because she physically isn't there anymore i.e., she's dead. Which itself is a lie because of course Jinx isn't dead. Not only is it a very selfish choice on Jinx's part to leave Vi believing that her sister is dead, it avoids either character having to actually confront the struggle of their dynamic and their past together. It feels like a cop out on the writers' part to address this compelling part of her character development. Vi feels stripped of any agency of her own in this matter and Jinx's dishonesty creates greater distance in a sister relationship that I believed had much greater potential for closeness. This great lie that Jinx leaves Vi believing feels like a betrayal of sorts that the writers had such little faith and willingness to show how these two characters could find a means of living as each other's sister or not - a conflict that was what made S1 so compelling and felt half-baked and prematurely 'concluded' by the end of S2.
I still think act 3 is the weak point.
@@sagehawk12 that's valid. What makes you dislike it?
I agree. Everything up till Act 3 was pretty good with me. Bad writing or whatever is like something people can gloss over (it’s the type where you don’t notice it unless someone points it out to you). Act 3 is fine but I see why the creators originally had it to be 1 hour 30 minutes
in my opinion, Act II is the one that drags the season down.
Caitlyn flipped so fast in episode 6. All it took was Vi calling her Cupcake once and she betrayed Ambessa on the spot.
And Isha was completely unnecessary for Jinx's "redemption arc". Vander's/Warwick's revival and "death" was more than enough emotional attatchment for her to completely break down in Act III.
Isha was the Powder that never was. It was the start of Jinx's redemption through throwing her back to her lowest, only being saved by Ekko. I don't think Cait flipped quickly at all which I explain in the video. So many things point to her betrayal and Ambessa's actions go against the Cait's core principles which she outright tells Ambessa in episode 4 (a clip I also showed in full in my video)
@@reduxxedr I really think there was some corporate shenanigans by Netflix/RIOT that forced writers to cut almost 50% of the intended runtime in the finale and alot of the story was left out. IMO, It still works well enough to put the pieces together, but it definitely feels better to see them than play connect the dots with your imagination.
Honestly, not liking the musical montages is a you problem. (Not you, the video creator. It's a general "you")
Music videos being used for storytelling has been a staple of the music industry for decades. Hell, Michael Jackson has some of the best ever made.
I don't like musicals (with exceptions), so I don't watch them. But I'm not gonna call them bad just because I don't like them.
@@brian0057 schnee puts it great when he says that music is the epitome of what wild runes are. People complain that the music is very in the nose, but a lot of tracks carry great deeper meaning like Isha's theme. They're saying what's happening, but with the raw, unadulterated emotion that the music brings. It's pretty cool, and I love the music
I feel the tracks for each scene definitely added to the underlying message/emotion that the scene was trying to portray. They embellish the visuals you are seeing, not replace them. I feel like they did a good job.
I personally think Arcane season 2 sucks. VI’s character lost how she drove the plot forward with her headstrong attitude in season 1. All the characters in season 1 felt they had agency.
This goes into the character focus thing, and I think that was a critical failure. At the end of the first act, I literally felt myself lose investment in Cait and Vi and Jinx. They moved so fast, in directions I know they wouldn’t have if the plot hasn’t forced them.
Obviously the final act is terrible, but act 1 is the most offensive to me, since it felt like a slap in the face to season 1’s finale.
Vi's whole character was one of meaninglessness, which I discuss in the video. The entire point of the montage and her joining Caitlyn's strike team was one of her finding purpose. She doesn't know what she wants, she only knows how to protect others. Think about her character throughout season 1, then question what she actually does for herself. She's never selfish, she always acts on impulse based on what she thinks will benefit everyone else the most. When she loses all of this, she loses purpose. She finds that purpose again through Vander
@@Eggroll3s But again I feel like using Vander as a means for Vi to 'regain her purpose' doesn't actually evolve her character but rather return her to being again stuck only living and caring for others and in this case, it being for the resurrected father whom they have the potential of saving. Vi's arc feels incomplete to me by the end of S2 because besides the purpose of protecting her loved ones and using violence as a means of achieving that, she hasn't gained any purpose for her life outside of that. Instead, the cycle of her giving her all in protecting her loved ones to only lose them again is repeated and she is left to mourn and feel pain. Pain that feels in vain when the only progress Zaun made in their fight against Piltover's oppression was getting a single seat in counsel - one that is shrouded in doubt/scepticism and weariness by all other counsel members. And at some point, it does just feel like, what is the point of her suffering this much pain and losing nearly all of the meaningful relationships in her life? By the end of Act III in S2, i felt an emptiness for Vi, numbed by the countless loss she's forced to deal with and swallow. And why I use the term 'swallow'? Because the show does very little to even show us a glimpse of Vi mourning Vander a second time after Isha blows them all up or mourning Jinx when she believes that she died, sacrificing herself for her sister - it just feels so egregious to not show at least this much of Vi's feeling for her sister and the writers really starved me of much closure on this central part of their story.
There's a sense that she is lonelier than ever, despite having Caitlin still by her side - and that goes to show how poorly developed Caitlin and Vi's relationship felt to me. Instead of sufficiently exploring their conflict and having Vi at least be heard out by Cait, we get an unnecessarily lengthy scene of them making love in a jail cell - a scene placed so unnaturally that it is hard for me to perceive it as anything other than cheap fan service in place of what could have been an interesting interaction. The reason I believe it to be so unnatural is because I find it so hard to believe that, after seeing Jinx visibly in despair, hearing her declare a cryptic message that entails that she's made up her mind on doing something potentially harmful as Vi is locked up in a jail cell to prevent her from stopping her sister, that Vi wouldn't immediately rush to find and help Jinx when she's let out by Caitlin. I find it hard to believe that Vi would then say to Caitlin something along the lines of, 'I should have known that she wouldn't help' when the matter isn't that Jinx doesn't want to help and therefore wouldn't, (we've seen her be the 'big fat hero' previously in the season even if she did so reluctantly and Vi has seen Jinx be a caring figure to Isha) but rather that she cannot help because of the severely low mental state she's in. I would think that Vi could at least see that much in Jinx's character and have that much more faith in her especially after her adamance to Caitlin about how Jinx has changed. It then feels very out of character for Vi to not spend any time showing any more concern/worry for Jinx even if she felt that she couldn't immediately help her in that moment but instead to spend a passionate moment with Caitlin - it goes against Vi's core character trait of being somebody who fiercely loves her sister which is a primal instinct that I believe would trigger in anyone who thinks their loved one could be edging something dangerous, even if they're not somebody struggling with their fierce love and protective nature being a double-edged sword.
This is part of the reason of why I believe that the show doesn't just have an issue with not having enough time to tell its story but also that it misuses the time it does have, making for far greater disappointment than just some parts feeling rushed or paced incorrectly. And even then, 'not having enough time' is not a good enough excuse for me, as the writers would have roughly known what time they were granted and therefore should have worked smarter to fit in and see through storylines that could be told cohesively in the timeframe they were given.
@ I just disagree she lost it. I think the show just forgot Ekko and Vi had a close friendship. I can’t imagine Vi drowning in Liquor with Loris before she seeks Ekko or Jinx out. I feel her character is simplified to just be a Cait simp so then they can go with the Vanderbilt plot.
The addition of Ambessa late in Season 1 killed the vibes of the show. Season 1 is just as flawed as Season 2. They did a 3 act structure... The 3rd act (if they follow the rules of classic storytelling) should just focus on resolution. They should NOT have added a new character in the resolution part of the story. And in season 2 they have to deal with it.
Additionally minor characters in Season 1 were given major character arcs. It was so convuloted! Minor characters should stay as minor characters. They bit off more than they can chew.
Season 1 flaws are greatly overlooked because it was a fresh story.
@@CzarsSalad never heard anyone criticize season 1 before to be honest; very unique outlook. The show was very clearly meant to be 2 seasons, so Ambessa's addition doesn't remove anything from the preexisting episodes, but further adds upon them and the characterization of Mel/the other Piltovans. It adds tension and provides backstory as to why Mel is how she is and why she's in Piltover. It also shows how she gets her manipulative side which I think is an amazing touch. Ambessa takes existing characters to heights they could not reach writing wise, and she herself is very well written
@@Eggroll3sthey did a 3 act structure of Season 1. The 3rd act was supposed to be used to RESOLVE the story. It's a fundamental rule in storytelling that you don't introduce a new character in the 3rd act.
@@CzarsSalad okay, this was impossible to address because your comment was completely different before you edited it and had way less information. You can introduce characters in an act 3 setting if they're important to the 2nd season, which she was. When people say act 3, they don't mean a typical act 3. Season 1 is halfway through the story, not a conclusion. Saying that they added a new character during the resolution is objectively incorrect. On top of this, which minor characters got big arcs exactly?
Edit: just wanted to add something to emphasize my point: do you think making the conflict even worse was the resolution? Jinx blew up the council before the story's resolution could've been made
S2 is not a masterpiece. You are wrong. I understand why you like it, but I just can't.
@@nickl9461 I think it's disingenuous to say that you understand why I like it, then say I'm wrong. I'm open for discussion, but I don't think it's right to talk in an objective way about subjective material
Your opinion is just as good as any of us. You don't have the monopoly on the meaning of masterpiece. You're one of those retards
@CzarsSalad if they didn't like a tv show, that's fine, no need to use slurs. They can explain why or not, I don't really care. It's up to the other party to reciprocate dialogue
Wake up.
@@LeylaSKDR good morning
My man, you need a lot less copium in your system.
@@ergovoks5200 how is it copium? I wrote an entire script explaining why I thought this way and stated in the video itself that I understood why people had gripes with the show. The whole point of the video is me explaining why I, specifically, love the season, addressing common criticisms to do that. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they're dumb for thinking differently, but relating to them by telling them that I understand why they think this season was a letdown even if I did not
I feel the explanations made sense. I'm interested if you saw the context provided pointed another direction(maybe nowhere) or just didn't care to see it.
stop coping
@@myplace4play how is it cope if I made an entire video explaining why I think it's good while saying that I understand people who don't like it? That sounds like a constructed point, not cope
This is the most stupid comment. The problem with Arcane is that it birthed to the most retarded viewers ever.
@CzarsSalad let's not use ableist slurs in my comment section please. People can talk however they'd like, as bad as it is. I'll handle their discussions if they get too negative or inappropriate, but please keep any foul language to a minimum
@@Eggroll3s You didn't adress major problems like character assasination (the only character who survived writers' incopmpitance was Marcus, and only because he's as dead as possible, death didn't save Silco of this fate though)
@@myplace4play who do they character assassinate exactly?