Making custom heater pads and then destroying one
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Copying the Chinese for a change. (assuming they didn't copy someone else.)
While laminating carbon fibre electrodes onto some experimental membranes, I decided to have a go at making some heater pads based on laminated carbon fibre tissue with copper electrodes.
It's a technique I've seen used in many imported low power heating products, and it seems to work pretty well. There's huge scope to customise the shape, area and heat level.
I then decided to test one to destruction to see how it fared.
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#ElectronicsCreators
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Unnecessarily complex proposal, but if you made 4 x 7 segment shaped arrays of these (with the appropriate drivers) then coated it with thermochromic paint , you'd end up with a really funky clock!
...also, you could leave off the thermochromic paint, and have a clock that you could only read with an IR camera 🤣
The seconds might be a bit slow to respond though!!
That's a really cool (!) idea.
@@therealchayd Yes yes! I was thinking about a nitinol wire installation which would heat up and show the time only in IR. :D
Someone has made this with pcb traces as the heaters, I believe it was a thermochromic panel
I wonder if there is an easy way to make these with silicone instead of laminating plastic. A while back Nighthawkinlight did a video on mixing silicone caulk with a solvent so he could coat things with it. Maybe that would work.
It usually helps when you have a fingernail or two. I always let one or two grow out a bit just for projects like this.
Also, anything will self destruct when you turn the voltage high enough.
Nails are always the most in demand for stuff just after you trim them.
You should make Self-Laminating Sheets "Just plug it in"
I think the copper tape is sold with conductive adhesive... Could skip the laminations step entirely for low voltage stuff
If you didn't increase the current, will it still melt the plastic pouch over a longer period of time??
At low power it should last a long time.
For scientific reasons the failure mode always needs to be investigated. 😎
Always, he needs to test it's pop freshhold.. :)
Most definitely...you know...for safety reasons! 😁👍👍
@@arthurmann578 Of course.. ;)
Is probably air entering at the place where it firstbreaks the lamination and oxygen allowing the car bon fibers to oxidise in a path where the pouch first bulges.
Appears to have the same failure mode as most electronics - ie once the smoke escapes it stops working.
Come on Clive, we really wanted to see it connected to the mains via a variac.. 😁🤪
when he suggested making three strips I instantly thought "Yes! connect it to three-phase!!" ;-))
stick it on Photon's capacitor
@@stepheneyles2198 all we have to do now is decide whether we want it connected in a star or triangle configuration 😉
Oh come on Clive get out the quick test !
You get little sparks where the individual strands meet the copper, knocking out those strands somehow... this shifts more current to the remaining strands, causing them to die out more quickly, until the connection between the copper and the carbon is completely broken. Not sure why, maybe it's the plastic melting by the heat and causing insulation, but it doesn't take much to destroy them
Hi Clive I feel we missed out a learning point with not bringing back in the thermal imaging during testing to destruction!
Yes, this test needs to be run again, with the thermal imager running. For science!
And the max power, amps volts watts it can take before self destruction
FYI, the copper tape can be found in diy stores as snail deterrent tape
hahaha snail deterrent at 240V AC
There's a new video for Clive 🤣
@@YoureUsingWordsIncorrectly I think a microwave oven transformer connected to copper strips on the ground would be better. Set up a camera
Darn, he didn't measure the smoking temperature with the pyrometer camera thingy! Now he'll have to do it again.
Self adhesive copper tape is also used for making stained glass. Craft shps sell it.
Thanks, going to buy one.
Not sure when I will be able to get my hands on the carbon fibre mesh.
But at least it will help get rid of the snails and slugs in the meantime.
If you want carbon fiber with more repeatable properties, either use woven stuff or sandwich a few layers together at different angles.
Nice! A larger version of this might be what I need to keep my solar batteries warm in winter.
The copper tape is available from garden shops as "anti slug tape". I got some for a project last year.
I was wondering if you ut the tape a bit longer, then folded the end over to cover the sticky side, you could have copper tabs sticking out of the side of the pouch to solder or connect clips to. No need for the holes or removing the sticky.
Having the tape stick out the end might be too delicate.
But you could just fold it around the pouch so it ends up on the outside.
@@Ultrazaubererger Or fold the end for a few millimeters so the non-adhesive side is visible at the holes.
I'm thinking this may be a way to make A4 sized heater plates for stopping water freezing. I've already ripped up an electric blanket to get the heater wire to wind round the pipes.
I have absolutely no need for this... but... oh darnit I've just ordered some anyway 😊
👍 How to find it? What is it called? Ebay? Ali Express? If you would be so kind 🙏😊
Exactly what I need for my Telescope to retard Dew from the optics at night. 5V power bank + custom build/Wattage. Thanks BC, my weekend agenda is now full.😁
Ridiculous how much they charge for dew heaters
What did you call me
@@whompronnie 🤣
for my camera lens i used heating wire from a domestic electric blanket, measure lenght, cut in 20 pieces, each length is now 12v. sew it into a sock, sock over lens, old 12v car battery.... One or at the most two strips should do.
Good idea 😊 Would work for long exposure night photography!!
I want to see it plugged into a 240v supply ! 😬
Honestly pretty cool, tho one solution that you didn't mention to the soldering the wires on thing with the adhesive copper tape that you have, is to just stick it onto the other side of the pouch so that the nonadhesive side is already available to the hole instead.
You’d have to punch a hole in the carbon fiber then too.
Or fold the end of the tape over on itself, to create an unsticky tab at the end.
Why use tape? Couldn't you use bare copper wire and have it stick out the bottom a bit? Or do you need the larger surface area to contact the carbon fiber tissue?
So now we need a mains test to see how it behaves at 4 kW!
Yes Clive, put it into the sausage heater!😂
it would probably draw around 3.3kW and 14 amps. Then it would explode...
Would it work with AC
Clive, you forgot to measure the resistance! But anyway, the thing would just explode on the mains the moment you plug it in 😅
Oops, somebody invented the flat incandescent light 'bulb'
This is actually an awesome visualisation of what a carbon film resistor is/does. Just imagine it shrunken down and shoved into some ceramic (also with a cheaper conductive metal).
Copper tape is available with an electrically conductive adhesive whih would make construction much simpler.
Clive gets new phone with Fancy Thermal Imagine Camera:
Clive makes Cool Video destroying pocket snooker warmer, forgets to check Max Heat.
Q: Could this be used to heat food while camping? Thinking MRE rations style experiment.
yeah carbon fiber and copper can handle high temps, you would need a more heat-resistent substrate than the plastic though
Never change Clive. Love your channel.
I see a butter dish warmer project on my "to do" list. No more demolishing the bread 🍞 😁. Thank's Clive, awesome video.
If you warm your butter dish from the bottom the whole block will just slide about. Using one hot straight from the dishwasher taught me this
@@lmcshera I think the idea is to keep the heating on low power, but permanently (or perhaps based on room temperature) and heat up the butter slowly. Just to keep it soft enough to spread, increasing the temperature by 5-10°C (above room) should be enough.
If the butter dish has a lid, then perhaps have a strip around the butter, not touching it, but rather radiating.
No need to warm the butter, just use a cheese grater with a cold stick of butter to get some on the bread.
@@Okurka. Lurpak Spreadable with up to 64% butter. Nah I'll pass thanks
Stained glass copper tape is a bit thicker and takes to soldering well. The adhesive is also quite heat resistant.
You'll smell that smoldering plastic for the rest of the week..
Noticble that the area of the pad where the thermal imager recorded higher temperatures, started melting first. Probably irregular weave or the addition of more schmoke particles by the manufacturer.😂
What a great way to start the weekend, thanks Clive! 🔥💥
It would be interesting to try to construct a higher-temperature version of this using something like a couple of glass plates clamped firmly together instead of the plastic sleeve, and then seeing how hot you could actually get it before it started suffering ill-effects...
In theory, if you used the right materials, you should be able to make something that can produce quite a bit of heat output (but the failure mode when you push it too far might be quite a bit more dramatic)..
You could maybe use some wide Kapton (polyimide) tape between the laminate pouch and the copper & carbon fibre as additional protection against melting the pouch. Might not even need the pouch if you can get thick enough Kapton tape, or have multiple layers instead.
We need pouches made of Kapton.
Wouldn't any thermal insulation be defeating the purpose of the heater aspect of it? :p
@@lacunate Kapton is heat resistant, about as heat insulating as normal pouch material. You can get it in rolls as adhesive tape.
Kapton is comparatively delicate. It’s not as tough as the laminating pouches. And it’s far more expensive. So I wouldn’t use it anywhere it’s not truly necessary.
@@tookitogo It might cost more, but it is the result that counts. If you want to make a custom heating element this way that can produce more heat without crincling up like normal pouches, you need other material. The price is less of importance if it can be made working.
The Kapton adhesive film and the Kapton insulation around NiCr-Ni thermocouple I have worked with so far were a lot thinner than pouch material, so yes, in that respect they are 'more brittle', but still sturdy enough.
The main reason for why there are no Kapton pouches is probably the color of Kapton.
When applying the copper tape don't take all the backing off. Just pull back a bit at the end, stick it on and then slowly pull off the backing while sticking the rest of the tape on. That keeps the tape from sticking to anything you don't want it to stick to and also keeps it in an easy to handle shape.
Interesting how the smoke comes and goes. I wonder if that's the plasticizer leaving the laminate, and maybe this could be a manufacturing step for making stiffer and high-temperature ones. Maybe stack something flat and heavy on it to keep it from deforming, and then use its own heat to cook out the lower-temperature volitiles, see what's left afterwards...
But also good to know that you can make a 5w one and it's got about a 5x safety margin still.
This is a great little experiment! I could see this being worked into all sorts of applications. I wonder if heating up/dehydrating the fiber pad just before sealing it in could help with the moisture thing.
I'm wondering if the moisture came from the pouch adhesive.
I see potential for a anti-insect screen door with burglar execution functionality
Peltier's elements are pretty good for heating and cooling. Fun to play with. I got a stack of 3 down to -50 C. You could build a cloud chamber with those.
They are fun, but very inefficient. And their efficiency falls as the temperature differential between the hot and cold sides grows. For heating you’re better off with a resistive heater. For cooling, a refrigeration cycle system is far better. They do have some niche applications, but there’s a very good reason we don’t cool homes and refrigerators with them.
@@tookitogo There are videos on youtube of people building cloud chambers with Peltier elements, and they work!
@@seanrh4294 Where did I say it wouldn’t work? I just said it’s really inefficient, so I don’t think “really good” is the best description for them as a blanket statement. (Which is what your first sentence is.)
Yes, their efficiency may be poor, but their size, solid-state nature and ability to heat or cool with polarity reversal makes them extremely flexible and convenient.
Besides, when it comes to making cool stuff just for the hell of it, who's worried about efficiency anyways?
Has the fire extinguisher replaced the Explosion Containment Pie Dish?
Not completely. The pie dish is full of lithium cells at the moment.
This is super neat! You could also put in a small PTC thermistor of some kind in the laminated sleeve to help regulate the temperature, or at least prevent overtemp failures.
Try using kapton tape since it can withstand higher temperatures. Note that cheap tape might not last long and would even melt.
Very impressed with the carbon fibre. However the plastic pouch is the main problem. Attach a thermistor and get it self regulating. Love it
Hey Clive! Good idea! I'm wondering if we change the laminating pouch to something more heat resistant, could this heater be turned high temperature enough to became a reflow soldering base?
It is best suited to low level heating.
This is amazing! I can see so many uses for these, including heating electronics. In cold environments equipment needs heaters inside to keep the electronics at operating temperature, and these little pads seem perfect, you could even place them right under a PCB to heat it. It also seems to have a slight positive temperature coefficient meaning it can't go into thermal runaway.
Re thermal camera view; still looking at an electrical "pressure gradient": your highest temperature is fairly close to one terminal, your average is onhtye center, and the low temperature area is furthest from both terminals.
You might supply both eds of each copper strip in parralel to average that out better.
Maybe additional restriction on the positive wire would allow the pad thermals to "fill out" more.
I can get to resistor, diode or capacitor as possible components, but Im still reverse engineering electronic thru my native physics;vso I'd really like to see (via thermal) what each does to the heat distribution.
Explanation; the normal method is to think that electricity flows from + to -, and plan circuits accordingly, because the component order is easier to comprehend that way.
But electron flow is actually in the opposite direction.
So looking at the thermal view, traditional interpretation would assume a stream of water hitting a towel.
But actual flow is more akin to water backing up at a drain off of a field. If you want to flood the field, restrict the drain.
Oh Clive, I have an entire garage full of tool and material duplicates from losing, buying, then re-finding. Glad to know im not the only one who does this! 😂
I've made heated gloves using carbon fiber rope. I originally used 7.4V LiPo packs that came with a pair of commercial gloves. But for the past 2 winters I've been using a USB-C battery with a 9V decoy board, which eliminates the heat fade as the battery voltage drops. To control the output I use a small PWM dimmer.
The carbon rope I use has a resistance of 21 ohms per meter. The temperature is a factor of length and voltage, the shorter you make it the hotter it will get. I picked a length that I can plug my gloves straight into a battery and max out at a safe temperature.
It has been quite the learning experience as I've had all sorts of failures. I finally settled on copper crimps for the wire to fiber connection. I was still using solder which made the wires brittle and some broke over time from the stress of removing the gloves.
At one point I was using fine copper wire wrapped around the carbon and power wire then bonded with solder. But unless the solder is absolutely perfect that connection can act as a coil and get up to 200F! That was a fun surprise, at least carbon cools off very quickly.
Thanks for the good video Clive, I've been looking at window heating elements and small heaters such as the miniature tube heaters for de icing etc...
I've found a few manufacturers of the heating tape and holders for mini heaters and there's a small etching business local to my home that makes custom foil patterns by laser cutting and liquid etching..
BTW, I've purchased copper foil tape at the hobby store; it's used for stained glass.
I would really like to see you do a more extensive video applying different voltages or constant currents through various shapes on a thermal camera.
I've got a few off the shelf pads like this at 7W, sold for terrariums. They can become a fire hazard even below that if you forget about one under a blanket or some other insulating cover, but they also use 1/200th the energy of my baseboard heater.
I have recently adopted a snake 'Kellogg - the Corn Snake' (yep, thats her name lol).. With a large A4 sheet of laminate, copper, and carbon tissue, PSU, variable resistor etc, you could make a variable voltage/heat heat pad for 'Sneks' and reptiles? 🤔😏👍 ALSO.. I suppose.. potentially, one of these home made A4 sized heat pads, with a 10,000MAh USB battery pack, 'COULD' be used as a backup if someone with a reptile/'Snek' suffers a blackout/power outage in their house/down the street??? 🤔🤔🤔
😎🇬🇧
I've been looking for toe warmers for on my bike, with no success. I'll be making a foot shaped version of this as a much better option.
Just had a mental picture of this on Henry VIII's suit of armour - in a slightly different position! 🤔😜🙄
Why no wall power :(
A wall power test would've been fun (but extremely destructive LOL)
5V at 350mA = 14.28 ohms
240 volts across 14.28 ohms = 14 amps and 3360 watts...
I'd love to see this thing explode on mains...
Interesting experiment. Would actually be useful in an actual product by sandwiching between brass plates at each end and casting in silicone rubber in a thin sheet.
I have some nickel plated microfiberglass that would be amazing for high heat applications. Only issue is cost, and not knowing how the acrylic binder acts/can be burned off and still form a sheet. I do have low carbon fiber content fiberglass as well, but pretty difficult to get good conductivity across the whole sheet.
thats actually a genius idea to have a heater with a huge surface area !!
i was contemplating the whole power resistor strapped to a huge meal sheet , but this is way better
i have to substitute the carbon fibre for something else i can actually get in my country
I imagine the carbon fiber by itself could take quite a bit of heat as long as it's not really flammable. That seems like it could be useful for things like 3D printer beds in some variation. It looks like a more even heat than the coiled copper trace you normally get. Not very heavy either which is good. I wonder if it could be more cost effective. Neat!
What about powering them with a Pulse Width circuit? Extend battery life when portable & keep a good average heat at same time? Also should technically provide a Wider adjustable heat range .🍻
Ah! Destructive discombobulation with quasi-pyrotechnic effects, that's the stuff I love :). Where's your fume extractor? (I could ask that in Karenese if you want)
When I can actually get the materials I need to make my new garage based work bench it is going to have lots of ventilation.
I'm not sure if you can heat up the pad before you laminate to drive out the moisture first, then laminate it. And you can use the adhesive to stick down the fiber carbon and then solder to the coper side that's the non-adhesive side... I'm not sure if these ideas will work, but just like making a video without rehearsing, I'm typing in my comment the same way... LOL
looks like you need to embed it in something that isn't going to break down at higher temperatures. Lamination plastic isn't ideal because its entire purpose is to melt at a relatively low temperature. You also want it to be thin and flexible, though. Maybe silicone? Clamp it between two flat surfaces to make it as thin as possible.
I think you'd probably also want to try baking the moisture out of the carbon fibre much like you would for 3D printer fillament (food dehydrator is best). I'm guessing silicone wires would be a good idea too, I wonder if you could get it to seal with the silicone substrate to make it waterproof.
Got an idea for a new channel. big Clive will it pop. Where you test things to destruction. I know it's Andy's thing but Andy's not doing it anymore.
It would pay to be just a bit careful with carbon fiber in a workroom full of electronics. They've actually been used as a weapon of war (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite_bomb). During my time in the USAF the carbon fiber honeycomb parts of fighter aircraft were seen as a major hazard in the case of a crash/fire. Such were called a "corker incident" if I recall correctly (but it HAS been four decades so my memories are a bit vague about the subtleties ).
I was expecting the carbon to go broke, but disappointed by Clive and his 40ish Volts 😆
Not as dramatic as the Presto Hot Dogger experiments, but an excellent foray into science, none-the-less. 👍
I want to see a carbon fiber wrapped around a copper pipe sandwiched inside another copper pipe with a very gigh current source, I bet you could make a very hot rod with that, could make for something interesting.
I wonder how that 140USD tape dispenser Adam Savage did a video on the other day would work with that copper tape.
You could market them as SMD resistors in the 250120 size package.
This would be good for making 5watt usb heaters attached to a bimetal thermostat for sea monkey tanks......
I always wondered what car rear window defrosting filament leads were made of. I'm trying to remember the year they turned invisible in the glass. 2002ish?
IIRC it's just an electrically conductive printable paint. Remember that anything that isn't a superconductor will cause a voltage drop when a current is passed through it and that energy will be dissipated as heat. Even copper can be used, as demonstrated by PCB based heat pads that use a long, thin, serpentine trace as the heating element. Incredibly they can actually get hot enough for SMT soldering.
I have no idea what you're doing.
My brain shut down, I have a migraine.😭
I am just watching your video to relax.
Making the T-Virus is much easier to me.🧬
Idea for a Short, connect one of these to significant voltage, preferably mains of some significant fraction thereof and make it go pop.
I'm pretty sure you want to see an ElectroBoom video then! :D
Interesting project that's got me thinking. I do a lot of work with analogue synthesisers, and I'm immediately wondering what sort of resistance this carbon fibre sheet has, and how viable it would be to make a resistive ribbon controller with it, and also I'm wondering if you had a few layers of this stuff, would you be able to get a variable resiatance based on the amount of pressure applied to it, in which case it might be a possible way of making aftertouch sensors for a keyboard...
That's very interesting, especially since it doesn't behave like a regular ohms resistor.
Maybe you can laminate it just by putting preasure on it and heating it
You could test the resistance of the tape to have a rough idea of the properties of the tape.
Now I'm wondering how much current a carbon fibre body panel from a car would take before it cooked itself... :P
That's a great idea, get out the jumper cables!
Interesting.. Looks ideal to do a solar powered hot water tank heater with a buffer & regulator?
Wonderful way to make a laminate that can conform to any shape NOT...wonder how strong it is once the laminate has fully melted with three layers.
if you make more of these, you can easily avoid getting the adhesive side on the hole. After making the hole, close the pouch and use a marker or even just a sharp thing to scratch the area inside the hole on the opposite side. Then you cover that mark with the adhesive. easier to get a good solder point.
Might have got a better spread of heat by having the connections diagonally, but neat idea 👍
At first, I thought what you meant was two small diagonally positioned pads. After I've read your comment once again I realized, that you meant just the connetion points to the tape. Yes, that could be a good idea.
I fitted heated seat pads in my car and I believe that's how they are setup.
Copper probably way more conductive so not much voltage drop there.
@@mikem6549 Yes, the resistance of the copper tape is negligible compared to that of the carbon fiber so probably no real difference.
Really cool and useful experiment, Clive! I can see me making some glove and sock warmers with your idea this coming winter.....🤔👍👍
I would have liked to see the temperatures at the various voltages/wattages.
... or solder a cable onto the copper tape *before* fumbling it into the pouch and then fumbling the cable through the hole. 😉
Your creativity never ceases to amaze me, Clive. Just one of the reasons I enjoy your channel so much.
I think he's lost the containment dish.....
@@garrett69
I have asked him about the fire containment pie plate. He only uses it for lithium based fire hazards.
Chinese manufacturers: "Write that down, write that down!"
ah yes, the 762508 package surface mount resistor
Hmm, wrap a bit of that around a beaker/cup for drink warming fun.
This is actually genius, Im thinking of some DIY custom fit heater pads for my car's side mirrors to defrost them in the winter. My mother's car has heated side mirrors from the factory and its very useful.
I was kind of hoping for 240 volts at 50 amps, but still a good demolition.
Great idea, I didn't know carbon fiber could be used this way.
Interesting idea. Wonder if there is a more flexible laminating film for making a heated jacket.
Just bought one for a diy dryer and was wondering how they work. Thanks!
FabRoc conductive elastomer rubber might be worth experimenting with, as sewn in to EXO2 heated clothing.
Very interesting project Clive, thanks for sharing!
Just a thought, but instead of sticking the copper over the holes, couldn't you stick it on the other side of the pouch so you don't have to deal with the glue? Probably need a slightly smaller bit of carbon fibre to not cover the holes (or maybe just punch a hole through that too to reach the copper?)
Since it didn't actually burst into flames even at very high settings it would probably make a very safe option for all kinds of heating devices.
Pipes in winter...solar panels...even Lithium battery heaters for very cold environments...possibilities for a wide range of uses!
I'd like to make some innersoles to keep the feet warm during winter.
Great experiments! Pity about the lack of flames / loud noise, maybe next time. 8^) Cheers!
Possibly interesting variation: Just use the bare carbon fiber sheet, clip the gator clips to opposite corners, watch with the thermal imaging camera as you ramp up the power.
We have an A3 laminator in our office.
I am sooooo tempted 😊
I can see possibilities for a 12v heating pad for caravan/motorhome. 12v electric blankets are available but they are comparatively heavy and bulky which is exactly what isn't desired in situations where weight and space are at a premium. Possibly use mylar sheet as a backing.
You could have avoided dealing with the sticky side of the tape if you instead used a black marker through that hole to the other side. Then simply lay that sticky copper tape across the black dots rather than across the holes, exposing the non-sticky side to the hole.
Thanks for the content!
I think we need to send one of these over to photonicinduction for further testing.
Try Kapton sheet instead of laminate pouch.
Could you put the copper tape in the other way up so you are not soldering to the adhesive side?
12.66 ohms if anyone was wondering...
Good tip learned from this first time experiment: iron the carbon fibre to drive out moisture before laminating.
or stick it in an oven at 100C for a few minutes first. Whatever floats your boat.
"26 volts and it's smoking again. This is good."
Can't argue with that ;-D
Oh, an interesting side project (very) would be diode based thermostat. The diode would be a sensor, and you'd need at least a mosfet to regulate on/off. Maybe one resistor for a voltage divider? With surface mount components you could laminate all into one unit. That would make it more tolerant of voltage if nothing else, and would make it a more useful project overall.
The moisture was probably in the laminating pouches.
Perhaps another option would be to fold the tape over so you've a non-sticky surface on one end?
This is great. The only thing I wish you had done Clive was kept the FLIR camera on it as it heated up so we could see how hot it got overall. Plus the pretty colors on the FLIR are pretty.