How Forgetting One Word Almost Killed 693 People | Pakistan International Airlines Flight 310
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2022
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PIA 777:Dale Coleman
Emirates 777: Aero Icarus from Zürich, Switzerland
This is the story of pakistan international airlines flight 301, On the 7th of january 2020 a pakistan international airlines 777 was flying from islamabad to karachi. At 7:26 am UTC flight 301 was at 40000 feet getting ready for the descent into karachi. The airtraffic controller told the pilots of flight 301 to expect runway 7 right at karachi. This so far had been a normal flight and everyone was looking forward to an uneventful landing in karachi. Now the pilots just had to let ATC know when they were ready to descend and then the controller would clear them down. Within a few minutes flight 301 was down to 35000 feet and the controller cleared them to the way point MAKLI. At 7:39 am the air traffic controller said “When ready descend to FL180”. Now that flight 301 had been cleared down to 18000 feet the pilots of the pakistani 777 put the plane into a descent. But something had slipped through the cracks the, as pakistan international flight 301 started its descent another 777, this time an emirates 777 flying from dubai to delhi was flying in the opposite direction at 35000 feet. When the pakistani 777 started descending both planes were 70 nautical miles apart. With both jets at cruise speed that 70 nuaticals miles between them would be gone in a matter of minutes. In just three minutes that 70 nautical miles of separation had reduced to 15 and the pakistani 777 was still descending and the Emirates 777 was holding itself at 35000 feet. When they were 15 nm away the pakistani 777 was descending through 35,900 meaning that it was only 900 feet above the emirates 777. At 7:47 and 52 seconds, on the radar scope at air traffic control, both planes went from their default safe green color to a red. The STCA or Short term conflict alert had been automatically triggered this is to get the controllers attention about the developing situation. The controller immediately got in contact with Emirates flight 516 and said “UAE516 turn left by 10 degree
for spacing”. He was attempting to send the Emirates 777 to the left in an attempt to avoid a collision; he also asked the Pakistani 777 to turn to the left. The pilot of the emirates 777 just replied with “left” acknowledging the course change. Just as he did that the TCAS-RA sounded. The TCAS or the traffic collision and avoidance system is a system of transponders on airplanes that help pilots avoid traffic conflicts and collisions with other planes in an area. If two planes gets too close for comfort the TCAS system will give both planes complimentary resolution advisories to remedy the situation. In this case the TCAS system asked the Pakistani 777 to climb and it asked the Emirates 777 to descend. Both sets of pilots on both planes immediately listened to the automated warnings. The Pakistani 777 started climbing away and the Emirates 777 fell away at their closest point; both planes were only 400 feet apart vertically.
Once both planes had passed by each other the pakistani plane continued its descent and the Emirates 777 got back upto 35000 feet. The controller who was probably shaken by the near miss cleared the pakistani 777 down to 10000 feet and he was trying to figure out what had happened in the skies over pakistan. He called up the emirates 777 and asked them what altitude they were at and if they had overshot their target altitude of 35,000 feet. The pilots of the Emirates 777 told the controller that they were right where they were supposed to be and they had not overshot their target altitude when the TCAS resolution advisory happened . The Pakistani 777 made a safe landing at karachi with no issues whatsoever, the emirates 777 continued on its way to delhi with no issues.
These two planes had 693 people and so it was of paramount importance to find out what happened. On the day of the accident, the both planes were more or less heading towards each other. The pakistani 777 was descending and the emirates 777 was holding its altitude. One of those planes was not where they were supposed to be. The investigators listened to the tapes from that day to see what was said and how each set of pilots interpreted what was being said. They came to this seemingly innocuous sounding phrase from the air traffic controller. The controller when clearing the pakistani 777 to descend from 40,000 feet he said “when ready, descend to FL180”. He's basically telling the Pakistani 777 to descend when the Pakistani 777 was ready to descend. But this was in direct contrast to the SATI or the Station Air Traffic Instructions. The controller should have said ““When ready, descend to flight level.....Report Leaving”. It's a small change but it made a 
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Wanna watch the near miss over india?here you go! ruclips.net/video/-Pxvjh3TqaE/видео.html
Wanna? Is that a word? Isn't a near miss a hit?
Always amazing and informative content!
@@K1OIK uhm a near miss is not a hit. A near miss everone goes home at night... not so much if it "hits" anything
@@JasonFlorida uhm? A near miss means you nearly missed hitting it, so you hit it.
Islamabad!? How dare you! Islamagood!
TCAS is one of the best safety systems aboard modern aircraft. 600+ people owe their lives to it in just one flight. Great report.
I'd like to amended your comment with the qualifier, "Last resort," because when TCAS issues a Resolution Advisory, it means that minimum safe separation (MSS) is lost, and that a collision is eminent if immediate avoidance action is not taken. In controlled airspace, loss of MSS should NEVER happen, but it does, mostly due to task saturation.
In this situation, we see that the controller was distracted by his additional training task, and missed the situational update.
In this specific case, I don't fully blame the controller. He was doing his job, but became task-saturated while training another. What's important here is that the regional ATC recognized this hole in their safeguards, and acted to ensure this would never happen again.
You can almost bet that both the controller and the trainee will never make this mistake again. Things like this tend to leave an indelible mark in our brains...
Nicely done!
Forgetting the guy below, your right it did exactaly what is was supposed to do , I agree with you completely 8)
when you rely on technology to stop planes colliding
JAL and Korean I believe came within 50 feet of colliding because the pilot listened to ATC INSTEAD of CAS
It is good that both pilots followed TCAS. There is the other famous story where one stupid pilot followed ATC instead of TCAS although TCAS always takes precedence over everything. Yes, sometimes task saturation can cause issues. However, it si good that TCAS worked as designed and both pilots followed it properly.
TCAS has been an impressive piece of technology that has prevented many serious collisions over the years. Even with it being designed and implemented so many years ago, there isn't much that could be done to improve it. This was truly a team of engineers that only accepted perfection.
TCAS is actually given priority over controller
So if ATC is telling you go climb but the TCAS is saying you should go down
You go down
Yes and you hope that the other pilot is also listening to TCAS over any conflicting ATC instructions!
@@myke5696 TCAS now also checks if the other aircraft does as negotiated between the two TCAS systems - if not it reverses its recommendation
@@elkeospert9188 That's good to hear! I remember watching a video on a crash that was caused by miscommunication, and a reversal of the recommendation would've prevented the crash.
@@ETBrooD That feature was introduced with TCAS II Version 7.1
Yes, not doing so caused the Überlingen collision!
Being an air traffic controller is way too much stress and responsibility for me ! I hope those guys get paid well!
Same! I have *entirely* too much anxiety for such a position, and often think of those who are keeping us safe from that seat. Hats off to them all! 👍
You must be made of steel to be ATC. Does not pay well. Have only 1 employer the govt . And if you do your job very well nobody cares.. A doctor saves a kid from pneumonia parents and the kid think you are god( parents might be right on that one) a pilot land smoothly and people que up to thank them . Obstetrician delivers a baby he is brilliant.
This is a normal day for them but so much validation.
A good very good ATC can live his whole life and career. And nobody knows his name or cares. Zero validation. Lots of pilots think you are an idiot for the delays and stacking. Passengers don't know you exist.
But make one mistake leave out one word and you are worse than Hitler..
I am thinking about the ATC killed after the midair fender bender over Germany.
I never advise ATC as a career move. Underpaid underappreciated at best ignored.
@@haiwatigere6202 Some of us passengers actually do appreciate ATC, even if it's those of us with an interest in aviation.
When was the German fender bender? I didn't know about this or the ATC getting killed!
@@eddieharkin2550 Eddie Harkin Fender bender was the Russian kids flying to Barcelona and the FedEx plane fertilizing a good part of Germany with metal rubber oils and human parts. This was midair.
That ATC had his throat sliced by an angry parent of one of those children. Google FedEx Russian plane midair collision. That ATC was killed you will find
@@eddieharkin2550 96 or 98 I believe. The Überlingen disaster
The person invented This anti collision system should be awarded double noble prize. Air traffic controlling is a difficult job indeed.
JS Morrel
The Nobel Prize is only given in certain fields. Without checking Google, it's only in the fields of Physics, Chemistry, Literature and Peace?
Maybe there should be a special category for Engineering or Invention.
I'm impressed at the actions taken by the Pakistani authorities. They clearly took this very seriously, but also took action to avoid a repeat rather than just put on a show. Good job!
This situation is also caused by them.... They permitted PIA 777 to descend ro FL180 without knowing that an Emirates 777 was at FL350...
This situation was created by ATC and they have to make it clear... There is nothing to impress.... Coz they were in fault... However those both planes have TCAS to save them without ATC help at that crucial stage and TCAS has done its work perfectly..
@@arpansonawane6027 Exactly! It was a matter of obligation to put corrective measures to prevent future mistakes.. But considering the country and it’s history and reputations with fake pilot licenses and principles of promoting ‘terrorism over human life’,,, it’s not far fetched to see people getting impressed when ‘normal’ corrective measures are taken.
Ofc we got the Hindus in the replies saying otherwise. Hinduism is a literal L😂😂😂
@@adakot123 my gosh, talk about trying to make a political point. You are a very sad individual. Mistakes were made, corrective actions made - why not just leave it at that?
@@adakot123 @adakot123 it's essential that one focuses on the issue and the resolution so that this sort of incident can be prevented from happening in the future. Same kind near misses have happened over the skies of India as well, this is not the place to be making pitiful political statements on very serious aviation issues.
The TCAS saving lives again! No way the collision could have been averted without it
You don’t know that.
The TCAS is triggered by the risk of collision even if the collision is not 100% sure.
Of course it s a good thing both planes were equipped
Not true, if they both turned left as they were instructed and starting those turns. Even at the same altitude with those actions even without TCAS they would have had a near miss. In fact, TCAS could have caused a crash if one of the pilots became confused between the conflict of TCAS and the controllers instructions as happened before.
@@JasonFlorida The pilot* could have caused a crash if he listened to the controller instead of TCAS
@@JasonFlorida Everyone needs to listen to the TCAS now. That's how it works now.
@@ropefreeze1660 TCAS instructions are superior to any other ATC instructions, and pilots are trained that they have to react to TCAS without any hesitation.
What is historical fact is PIA was one of the worlds top airlines till the 90s. They helped build Emirates (funding and training) and Gulf Air. Saudia along with many other airlines used to service it's Boeing/Airbus/ATR Jets at Karachi Airport. This could have been a major incident, thanks to TCAS and pilot professionalism our skies are safe.
Very true, it was flying everywhere in Europe, but its routes quickly disappeared.
Then you got Sindhi inside pia which is going bankrupt soon
Sadly corruption got the better of the amazing airline
Being an ATC member requires 100% concentration. One wrong word and hundreds of people could die. Such hard work
Thank you for your service :)
And less talking.
About 35 years ago I was flying from Dublin to LHR (London ) I remember looking down at Bristol below, it was around lunchtime a gorgeous day and clear skies, suddenly right below me passed a TWA DC 10 I think travelling the opposite way ..I could clearly see the plane even at the speeds we were travelling..Thankfully we landed at LHR safely and I was transferring to another flight , Plenty of time so had a coffee in one of the lounges ..While there an Aer Lingus pilot came into the coffee shop and ordered whatever, I decided to ask him had he been the pilot on the plane I came off?, yes was the answer so I asked him did we have a very near miss with the TWA flight ?..His answer was yes but they didn’t see it , however they were given instructions to climb urgently but it would have been too late..Later I found out we were separated by 250 feet only , fcuk that was close 😱😱😱..
😮
Damn!!!!!
TWA never had DC10, probably an L1011?
just shows how important it is to follow TCAS
You don’t realize the work that goes into this until you fly X-Plane yourself then realize it’s not that easy. Good flying.
WDYM not THAT ez????
ITS SOOOOOOOOOOO NOT EZ IN FACT, HARDDDD
As An ATCO myself, this is a rookie mistake, you always clear to the safest FL in your sector then, start analyzing for incompatible trajectories.
In addition to refresher trainings for ATCOs it would be a huge step forward for them if the system would be updated (maybe it was since). To prevent such mistakes (in Hungary) we have a host of features in our software. Separation tools using flight plan tracks and the actual tracks of the airplanes working up to 35 mins ahead which is a lot of time to do something. On top of these we have four kinds of alerts which can be really useful: tactical tool looking for conflicts in the upcoming 8 minutes (yellow indication), STCA pre-warning for the upcoming 3 minutes (red dot around the label), normal STCA for the upcoming 2 minutes (red frame around the label) and a blindspot tool to prevent loss of separation with aircraft in a 15-mile radius (yellow frame around the label). From the screenshots in your video I would assume that it is a pretty old software with not too many features which can also play a role in the situation that developed. I'm not saying that our software prevents every mistake from happening but it's got really helpful features that makes our work easier and safer. I wish all controllers had such a developed system which would help them work safer in a less stressful environment.
And by the way I really enjoy your channel 😁 Keep up the good work! Thanks :)
It's an Indra ATM system
well the authorities actually listened, Paksitan has advanced ATM system at other airport, but Karachi ATM is too old, it is finally going to be upgraded soon, they have initiated the tender.
As an air traffic controller I can say according to the facts stated in this video, it was the clearance that was wrong. The PIA should never have been cleared to FL180 with a ‘when ready’. Either ‘when ready’ to FL360 until passing the Emirates flight, or FL180 with a condition that makes sure that separation is granted at all times (e.g. rate of descent or similar measures). The controller obviously did not plan ahead properly as the UAE flight did not pop up by surprise. Every flight entering a sector/FIR is being previously coordinated and known to the controller.
I thought the same but the video does state that the controller had no information about the Emirates when he cleared the Pakistani plane down. Not knowing the procedures or the airspace, we can't really judge more than that, although it does seem strange for a flight to seemingly he unknown so close to this controller's sector. It looks like a pretty old system based on the pictures. Which country are you in? I work in UK ATC and we have a very good system and I can't see that something like this could happen here
Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) has grounded 150 pilots over claims they may not hold a valid licence.
Great video illustrating the TCAS safety system. You should do a video on what happened before TCAS was made priority over traffic control. The mid air collision between 2 jets because one pilot followed TCAS, and the other followed traffic control. They maneuvered right into each other.
Uberlingen
and another one before uberlingen where they nearly missed each other
yeah seen that one ... always follow tcas direction
If this happened 40-50 years ago, this accident would of ended much more differently. However, thanks to the advancement of technology, this accident was narrowly avoided.
considering I use to fly back then this modern technology is just amazing , aint life great 8)
would of. would HAVE!
About 40-50 years ago, this would have ended very badly!
Not really because both pilots started turning left immediatelyper the controllers instructions. Even at the same altitude they would not have collided in this situation
40-50 years ago (before GPS) airway tracking wasn’t that accurate, they would probably have passed miles away from each other
Fascinating story. I am a bit surprised that the controller had such a limited area of visibility. I would have expected him to see further out, having the Emirates plane on his scope already when the descend call was made. And I am also surprised that the early warning systems did not kick in. Normally those should be able to detect such conflicts 10 minutes out at least.
None of the aircraft triggered their warnings of conflict
I came to this channel relatively recently but it's so impressive to see the development. One of my favourite channel. Thankyou for all your hard work and great Videos
I truly enjoy every episode you do. Your videos are really well done and provide solid analysis and commentary. This is the first time I have left a comment, and want to say your analysis and discussion of this incident was really well done.
Keep up the good work.
Pilot has to report leaving altitude, even without being told to do so:
"Leaving FL400, descending FL180"
At least the TCAS did not contradict the controller's command - otherwise a 2nd Uberlingen-Crash might have happened.
Pilots are ordered to follow the TCAS commands in any case whatsoever
@@jahangiryounus6674 Yup. I would argue that this near-collision is the legacy of Uberlingen: without that, the pilots might have accepted the left turn change from ATC and ignored the TCAS. I don't know the trajectory before they climbed, so I can't say for sure, but it might have not been enough to avoid a crash.
I'm sure there's more than those involved in this incident that the lessons of that tragedy have saved since, too.
This incident made my palms sweaty and stomach knot up. Thank God it ultimately worked out OK. Great job!
another fantastic video mate. looking forward to the next one
I'm starting to get some respect back for PIA I also love your audio as well.
I really enjoy your videos. You explain everything so clearly and have good supporting graphics. You are one of my fave air crash investigation channels.
Nice video. I honestly thought there was a mistake in the title(number of people) when i started watching the video. This was a serious incident
Great video as always.
That approach by the Emirates 777 was WAY below the glideslope lol.
I pay for entire runway I use entire runway lol
Great video, thank you. TCAS functioned as designed. Hopefully ATC learns from this and future close calls are averted.
It's really refreshing that you are including these type of situations and not just crashes. I will say in the future you should have said "incident" instead of "accident" at 4:20 ... sorry I am not trying to be a jerk but just helpful. You have the best air crash and accident and incident channel on RUclips!!! Thank you so much for sharing your hard work with us!!!
Thank you so much.
Agreed, definitely the best. Understandable to non-aviators like myself, without sounding patronising to the professionals and those more knowledgeable.
how about disaster breakdown
I've listened to many ATC and pilot radio exchanges and it mystifies me why there aren't more collisions and crashes caused by the ambiguities of hurried voice communications.
I know! I'm a native English speaker but I can barely follow those radio voices. So, so fast, slurred words, and muffled. Good thing I'm not a pilot.
@@Xezlec actually the ATC vocabulary is a small set, so the pilot are used to it, the get it even without ATC muttering a word.
And what’s the best part of this ?
Noone on both planes, eccept the pilots, would never know how close they where of disaster
Unless someone among those 600+ is an aviation enthusiast and follows this channel.
except if the 600 people looked out of their windows to see a triple 7 cross them 400 feet above/below
You make some great content pal. Love your videos.👌👍
Love your videos!! The channel is growing 👍
Because both 777 pilots followed the TCAS, they seem to have learned the lessons from the 2002 Überlingen midair collision. My own perspective though.
Great recovery by the controller after the initial miss! The vigilance by the air traffic controller in Karachi after the initial distraction saved lives. And well done to the vigilant pilots as well who immediately took evasive action following the alarms on board. Great graphics as always!
Sorry but that wasn't much of a recovery... The controller should have given a wider heading because the aircraft were too close to each other when the STCA kicked in. The 10 degree turn wasn't sufficient and resulted in this incident.
@@n3ov hundreds of lives saved = recovery
@@Quantum-1157 that's thanks to the TCAS....
Happy to hear that nobody got hurt and nobody got fired. Air traffic controllers have a lot riding on them.
I saw some time ago about another accident where the ATC got it wrong and the pilots followed the ATC instead of the TCAS and the planes collided. A relative to one who was on the planes then searched out where the ATC lived and murdered him in front of his entire family!
@@johnpekkala6941 Wasn't expecting the last sentence of that reply. I mean in front of the family even? Lol
This is a very similar situation to the Japan Airlines Nearmiss. On January 31, 2001, Japan Airlines flight 901 and Japan Airlines Flight 958 narrowly avoided a mid-air collision. The cause of this incident is the ATC missing the two aircraft on the collision course. The ATC was training a student during the incident and was also handling 10 other flights. I can say that training a student was too much for the ATC in the Japan Airlines Nearmiss and for Pakistan International Airlines Flight 310.
Thank you TCAS!
I'm surprised that an instructor supervising a student was also working his own screen. I've done a lot of training and even for far less complex jobs you really cannot train a student AND work your job efficiently and effectively at the same time.
The student ATC/distraction was not the issue. It all comes down to issuing specific instructions and requiring a specific response because timing is critical when managing aircraft in close proximity to one another. Dangerous situations develop in a matter of minutes due to the high speeds at which aircraft operate. Vague instructions and responses have caused many accidents.
I would think that it is standard procedure to advise flight control when leaving flight level whether clearance was granted or not.
It might also be a good idea to have another flight controller that is not actively working the scopes do the training rather than a person that's actively juggling aircraft.
was it flight 310, as it says in the video title, or flight 301, which you said several times in the vid. Either way, another great vid!
I was confused too until I saw the radar pix, where it shows 301. So, I'm gonna go with 301.
Nice. Can you also do pia 777 that had a brake fire at Manchester that was also an interesting incident with a surprising cause.
I'm surprised the TCAS didn't fire off earlier but that's on the ATC for missing those two words however.
May Allah continue to safeguard and protect all people always Ameen
Definitely the air traffic controller had too much responsibility. Better to have a dedicated trainer rather than use a practicing ATC. As for 50 years ago, I think we would almost certainly have had another 'Grand Canyon'.
It was great that both pilots followed the command of tcas rather than the ATC.
After watching multiple videos of Pakistani airlines crashes, mishaps and near misses, on this channel, no wonder they are banned from flying to Europe.
Damn. I did not know this before. TCAS is a really good system. Ig it was made mandatory for all the planes after ,1994 mid-air collision in India.
We humans learn from our mistakes.
@Mini Ait Crash Investigations
Have you heard about the LAN Chile A340-300 Incident?
I think it was over the pacific, when an A343 of LAN Chile was almost hit by a meteorit over the ocean.
Passengers reported that when this asteroid passed the aircraft very close, they heard an extremly loud noise from inside of the cabin.
This incident happend many years ago.
PIA is a near miss in itself. I'd never fly with them.
PIA isnt that bad as it is shown
Always fly emirates or other Gulf airlines in South Asia. Usually, the best pilots in these countries are poached by them.
@@sorryi6685 of course
Over saturation is one of those things where a person doesn't always know what they don't know. By the time a person realizes they are missing things they've already been riding in dangerous territory for awhile. It's only blind luck and other safety measures that might be keeping things safe at that point. Shaking my head.
TCAS, I know it was essentially borne from the blood of those who died in accidents before, but it is one of the most incredible and important safety features to be introduced to flying. No need to think, no need to pause, just do what it says and everyone should be okay
Great video. ATC has acted within the time to prevent collision creating lateral separation in more rational way. TCAS kicked in later. System worked the way it supposed to. Either way, it shows how safe aviation has become. I d like to know if there is information about lateral separation at the moment they were 600 ft apart vertically and did pilots follow just ascend / descend commands or they also turned left at the same time? Either way, in this case, I think they would had cleared the collision. TCAS is probably the best part of automation tech in the aviation. In other hand, giving too much authority and favoring cockpit automation against training, evaluating and improving pilot flying skills, in my opinion, as a glider freak, will kill more people then it can save. Pilots over automaton managers should be the policy. There should be mandatory manual flying percentage of hours flown per pilot before they all turn into passengers.
“Report leaving” are two words…
Just a suggestion.You could show some animation of the flight position in 2D which will help in understanding it better.
Great job
Babe wake up, MACI posted another video today!
310 in the title? Awesome vid tho, loved the explanations.
400ft seperation vertically at their closest point, what was their lateral separation at this point?
Awesome sims! But there is one thing. When you tell the story how everything unfolded, you say that first the air traffic controller gave evasive instructions in response to the warning on his radar screen. Both the planes were turning left. And than you say the tcas on both planes kicked in. But in the resume at the end you say that at the moment the air traffic controller gave evasive instructions (to turn left), both planes were already following their tcas instructions. Anyway, this made me think of the Üblingen mid air collision some 10 years ago in South west Germany, near the Swiss border. There both aircraft were following their tcas resolutions, but than the controller came in and gave one of the two an evasive instruction, the opposite of the tcas resolution. (climb instead of descent or the other way round). The pilots immediately follow the atc instruction, resulting in the mid air collision, killing all on board both airplanes...
I saw that contradiction as well but I think the air traffic controller told them to turn left to avoid contradicting TCAS and possibly confusing the pilots. Idk if that’s procedure or not but I think it made a difference in terms of preventing confusion and possibly delaying the reactions of the pilots
@@danielmack8958 Well, an air traffic controller can not know if and when a TCAS alarm is going of on the flight deck of airplanes. He/she can only presume it is going of. But in general I think it is best when pilots always follow the TCAS resolutions, prior to atc intstructions.
Student training is critical. It may have been too much for the controller, but the student got a great lesson.
'THIS .... is the story of' - highlight of my week.
I'm surprised a student is overseen by an on duty controller. Surely a controller has enough to be concerned with! Why doesn't a student have a supervisor dedicated to just that task? Is it financial?
I would like to know that to, Mini , how about some ATC stuff in other videos? Atc is pretty much as interesting as Flight, these guys and gals are doing a very stressful high pressure job?
It seems that the controller's radar was too limited / old? Why wasn't the Emirates 777 visible yet on the scope when the controller cleared the PIA plane to descend? The screen shot in the video seems to show a very limited radar range and number of planes. Hopefully this has been improved.
The constant changes in traffic is being observed by only the controller to respond? Is it not being monitored by an intelligent computerised system too? Emergence of another flight could have been alerted by that system, even if the controller failed to notice..
Training ATC student controllers on real situation is mandatory… but extra supervision is a must …. Fortunately tcas was around to save the day
I was taught that any "when ready" or "discretion" clearance has a reporting requirment, whether ATC says it or not.
Also PIA made a change in their SOPs to always advise when changing levels after being issued a “when ready…” clearance
We just had another near miss 2 days ago involving the same ATC. Please make a video on that too. Unfortunately we have a culture of brushing the problems under the carpet so we may never know what is actually going on behind such lousy ATC.
In all my flying had the best meal on PIA, London to Karachi 1990.
Oh yikes! Thank goodness that there was zero collision!
Both planes are not exactly Piper Cubs! Just like a giant super tanker, these flying cities will require some space and time to change course. Probably ole De Vile had taken a leak break!🤪
Fun fact - PIA actually invested in Emirates when the latter was being set up.
This video seems like you recorded it all in one take, and completely winged it on the details.
Brilliant....... episode
I think 40 yr ago, the controllers screens using old radar didn’t show altitudes and there were fewer aircraft in the skies
This scenario 40-50 years ago would’ve been absolutely disastrous
Is there no technology at the tower that would have forewarned the tower of the approaching EK aircraft. Similar to TCAS. Something that alerts them of a potential trajectory.
That controller should not be training students if he (A) doesn’t use the right language (“advise when leaving flight level 400”) and (B) misses a potential conflict shows up on his radar.
#554👍😤Always obey the TCAS! It never fails. Controllers are known to give directions that counter TCAS and has caused mid air collisions. A good pilot reports their altitudes despite it being reported by the transponder.
ERAU 80 CFIA&I ret.
Strange that the atco didn’t see that.. he normally would either vector the aircraft before giving the descent clearance or just clear them for the level above thus maintaining positive separation. Goes to show you that humans are only humans at the end of the day.
Hey man, the way you're flying these planes, makes me have anxiety.
I'm only broadly familiar with ATC procedures, thanks to a brilliant little game called "Kennedy Approach" on the Commodore 64.
When informing a pilot that "When ready, descend..."/ or whatever, to me this comes across as,
"When you feel like it, descend..."
Being the control freak that I am, I would have ordered "Descend now now now!"
And I would be fired for causing unrest and possibly panic among the airwaves and in the control room.
This incident reminds me of the terrible crash that occurred over Germany in 2002 when Swiss ATC gave contradictory orders - to the TCAS warning that had sounded on both planes that were to collide. If the ATC had done nothing, both planes would have been diverted away from a crash by their TCAS systems. As it was, the ATC controller must have panicked and gave exactly opposite orders, ensuring a fatal crash.
4 Air Traffic Controllers were later found guilty of manslaughter and got 12 month suspended terms.
The ATC who had actually given the fatal orders was already dead, killed by the father of one of the many children that had perished onboard the Russian plane.
That wold be a once in a lifetime lesson for the student.
It was a "blank check" descent to PIA to 180 all the way from 350!
Having worked that region. A country adjacent to Pakistan. Their controllers have handed of deals on several occasions. Definitely refresher training is needed.
Ok, the comments section is glitching. Good video.
Thank goodness for the TCAS system!
PIA is a legendary airline...
dude imagine if they really crashed its gonna be the world record of the deadliest crash in aviation
Thank God for TCAS..! Common sense would suggest that for every trainee ATC, there should be at least 2 experienced ATCs on the job - to avoid situations such as this. Thanks for another well-researched and interesting (if somewhat alarming) video.
@Account NumberEight It's an expression.. But thanks for letting all of us know that you're an atheist. We we all dying to know that (not)...
@Account NumberEight So now we know that not only are you an atheist - fine, that's your choice - but that you HATE any mention of God. And now we *also* know that you are a nasty little bully with it. Well, thanks for telling us all that as well. Have you read that book 'How to be repellent to other people and to make enemies'? Or perhaps you wrote the book..?
@Account NumberEight Why do see it as necessary to insult people? Are you SO empty inside that you need to lash out at other people in order to feel good about yourself?
@Account NumberEight You show zero respect for other people. Talking down to me as though I were a child - that says a whole lot more about you than it does about me.
This started with you making a hostile remark, and now you're making snide condescending remarks as though I'm a child. Well, I've got news for you, MATE, you do NOT get to tell me what to say, or when to stop speaking. You have neither the right nor the power to do so. I suggest that you go forth and multiply. .
TCAS is one of the best safety systems aboard modern aircraft. 600+ people owe their lives to it in just one flight. Incredible report.
Copy pasting the top comment. Pathetic. Get a life.
Yes the system saved them but still the chances of them actually colliding would be low, right? I think the system will give warnings even when there would be just enough space to be safe.
Even if an aircraft is not asked to report leaving an altitude (i.e. "descend when ready") it MUST always report leaving its present altitude for the altitude that it is cleared to. The fault was with the controller but commencing an altitude change should always be reported.
I have a dumb question, why don't commercial planes have datalink for radar?
The conflict between a controller's instruction and TCAS has killed in the past.
Yes, the working controller would have been distracted by the student. A training controller should be tasked with training.
A networking protocol between vehicles. This is the type of system they need to develop for autonomous grounds and water vehicles.
Most of this already exists, but is yet to be retrofitted or mandated. As with all major safety advances in Aviation; the instructions have to be written in blood
TCAS works if the pilots obey it, even over ATC's commands.