In case this helps someone, I had the exact same tests a long time ago (like 20 yrs) when I had shaky hands and weakness in my arms and shoulders over a period. I saw lots of doctors and was tested for just about everything in the world. In the end they said there was nothing wrong with me and they could not account for my symptoms. After that ON MY OWN I found the cause was me sleeping on my stomach to avoid snoring for years. It took me awhile, but when I got used to sleeping on my back and side again ALL the symptoms completely went away. I concluded I was pinching something in my neck. Although well intentioned, doctors are not always right.
Glad you learned so much,had some fun,sort of....as a biomed technologist in Canada one of my favorite areas was omg. Had it done multiple times to verify my functions but also as a service tech did it to verify the technology. A well trained operator is the key as this can be a rote job without knowledge. Love them electrons.
@@WDCallahan don't let this time traveller deceive you. Soon the worlds will merge and the Mandela effect will become the Mandala effect. Learn what you can from this leak in the matrix ; prepare while you can.
I made this test twice and it's soportable, I've troubles un muy fingers, they clóset and then don'want to open without help but I've two that had been then repaired for brillante surgery and on a few Months Will be the third opered, fantastic solution, no pain and complete movement from the first momento.
Long ago I had a similar test to troubleshoot carpal tunnel issue. The DR couldn't get his machine to turn on at first. After he worked on it for a while I pointed out to him the power plug was not in the wall.
I had a Carpal Tunnel test once. But they generate false positives because the doctor makes you counter his force when he first shocks you. The second time you're ready for the shock and so the second test gets the better reading naturally. But, it wasn't carpal tunnel. I have a narrowing in my neck due to arthritis and bone spurs, it's actually bothering me tonight - it comes a day before it rains. I'm getting the skin crawling effect, not fun.
I had this test done also. Using a TENS device has a very similar feel when you crank it up to full power! Very interesting video Fran and well explained to boot. Thanks for posting this.
Fascinating bit of experimental neurology. Wish you the best on your health. If you take as good care of your internal electrical circuits as you do for your external ones, you should be in tip top shape in no time!
I have experienced tests of the sort several times. A leg or an arm in ice water was the "cold side" of the test. Both arms and legs. This was 20 to 40 years ago, Results were not explained in much detail. I think I was more of a test sample when they were trying to determine if "Post Polio Syndrome" was measurable. I didn't hear anything for years until I was in for surgery when we knew I would be in bed for a week and they provided several comfort aids that were new to my personal experience. When I asked why I was told that they always used leg compression units and an adjustable, patient-controlled more flexible bed when dealing with people with a history of polio. So, many years after the testing that I underwent I found out there are long-delayed issues that may appear. 30 years ago I was told that it wasn't real and that if something was present there were no treatments so we should forget about it. The result was that issues may show up long after recovery. And recovery was defined as being able to walk well enough to get around. Sometimes, slowly, medicine makes progress.
6:50 I have dystonia and have to get botox shots regularly, so I know exactly what that thing is as they use one on me all the time. A little white box with a speaker, alligator clips, and needles (in my case with, the medicine needles are the conductors). The sound is exactly as you described, like radio static that gets lounder the further they plunge the needle in or when you move. When I first had it done the doctor accidenly got the probes to close and it suddenly screeched like mic feedback (scared the crap out of me).
I have had numerous EMGs in my life. They are not fun for the patient, but for the person giving the test it can be quite amusing. I had the tests for diagnosing spinal issues.
@ElectraFran: I've had these a couple of times for a botched surgery which left my left hand useless. The useless part is not as bad as the cold part. The nerve just doesn't even know half of the hand is there so it never tries to heat it. It's the worst nueropathy medically possible. I am wearing a thick "heatlocker" winter glove even now in the middle of a very warm summer. Be glad your symptoms are slight!
Hiya Fran. Yip, EMGs, I've had a few tests in the past. One for my legs in 2009 and recently again when I got Sepsis, went into septic shock and lost some of my toes due to Necropathy.. Turns out I had severe axonal nerve damage. But yeah very cool tests.
Yep, had more or less the same done on my feet and legs at the Walton Centre six years ago when I contracted Guillian- Barré Syndrome. Not pleasant, but necessary. I still have reduced sensation in both feet. Glad you survived it well enough to make this Fran, you're part of an elite group of us who've had their muscles revved up in the workshop! ;o)
Yeah, EFF that test! Hahaha! Years after I had it done I needed documentation for an ongoing issue and the doctor his office and any medical records of my ever having the test are nowhere to be found. It's like a goddamn episode of Twilight Zone.
I've had EMGs on both my arms and right leg. The arms were pretty much exactly as you described. The leg OTOH... I have some serious nerve damage in my right leg from a blood clot years ago, and perhaps they had to use more current in the tests, but, unlike the somewhat unpleasant arms, it was agonizing. I was almost afraid to have the arms done years later, but they weren't so bad. I hope your results were good and help you and your doctors.
I HAD THAT DONE AND FOUND OUT I HAD CARPAL TUNNEL AND HAD SURGERY ON MY LEFT HAND 🖐 A MONTH AGO NOW MY HAND 🖐 FEELS BETTER THANKS FOR SHARING I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS
Fanastic sharing this =D I had the same tests done on my left leg earlier last year, so I can relate to this =D It can feel quite sharp when the higher current pulses pass through your nerves.
A bit off topic, but related, my dog recently had pups and I stumbled on an article that discussed the development of the pups senses. It takes about 10 days before their eyes open but it takes several more days before they are able to actually focus, see and recognize objects. They are also born deaf and it takes several days before their hearing starts to function. And lastly, it takes as long as a month or more for their motor skills to develop, to control their muscles and what not. Reason being, it takes time for the melanin(?) sheaths to develop around their nerves, kind of like the outer insulating layer on an electrical wire.
I would think the voltage would change according to the mA they want. Since the resistance between the probes would remain the same the only way to increase the current steps would be to raise the voltage for each step.
I need to get one, been putting it off since I hate being shocked and know it’s just gonna be a major annoyance. Three hours?! Gosh. Bless your heart. Thanks for giving this great info to help me get mentally prepared for my procedure. Hopefully I won’t hulk-out when the 80 milliamps strikes. 😝
My Dr. Has been trying to get me tests like this for my arms pain but hasn't been able to due to covid19 and insurance dragging their @$$. This video was really informative about what to expect.
I had this same test earlier this month to diagnose carpal tunnel syndrome (differential diagnosis to ensure it's not a pinched nerve from my neck.) The first test with the shocks, I could see the amplitude and timing of the "return" wave (I forget what it exactly was). I actually fell asleep while being shocked.
I may get tests like that eventually for my weird weak right leg and arm. Certainly my MRI scans of brain & neck didn't show anything to explain the symptoms.
In 2005 I was being tested for ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease) and had the nerve conduction tests done with the needles from my neck to my feet. Good thing being stuck with needles has never bothered me.
Fascinating! Yes, being that I've also been shocked quite a few times in my life, I was going to guess it's probably ~50VDC. But again, that's just a wild guess.
@7:45, sounded like television static. ... FEELS like television static. Or like those times you could tune the radio between two stations and pick up both.
I had a similar test with the needles jammed into my arm muscles. A very uncomfortable test, but not as uncomfortable as whatever is wrong with the nerves around my cervical vertebrae.
Become the frog leg! It is really cool stuff! Interesting how the propagation delay changes with temperature. I guess it slows down too with constriction, as in carpal tunnel syndrome. My electrocutioner said it was more painful on the legs. Glad I didn't get to experience that!
I had a "total body" EMG 30 years ago and the hands weren't so bad but the shocks in the legs were not the most fun. Like Fran, my curiosity about the test data, etc. helped take my mind off the shocks. I have to assume also that the newer test equipment probably does not need as much of a jolt to get the readings. I also assume everyone is different in terms of their resistivity (skin, musculature, fat, dry skin, etc.) and the machine has to compensate for that.
After a major auto accident I had this done on my left side. They tested all around the top of my thigh down through to my foot (it was crushed - none of the bones were in the right place - it took 2 surgeries to fix, and then I had to have one of the toes that wouldn't cooperate removed later on). There was a 1220 millisecond delay from my outer thigh to my ankle, and the signals from my inner thigh were lost (never detected in my ankle or foot). It was interesting, as I also learned a lot of interesting stuff. The test that I thought was the coolest though was the kidney/bladder ultrasound. I got to see my kidney actually functioning, pushing the waste into my bladder, constantly along with heart beats. Never realized before then that the human body runs like a clocked circuit.
Hope you’re okay Fran. Really interesting to see! I wonder if doctors can tell who are the techy people by how engaged we are with these sorts of things. I had an x-ray of my intestines once, I thought x-rays were only for bones and my doctor took great care to educate my about it all.
I had the same testing done a couple months back, and I'm to go back in a few weeks and consult with a neurologist about my peripheral neuropathy. Following that, I'm expecting spinal surgery for a lumbar fusion, L3-L4. I don't know what can be done about the ankylosing spondylitis or the spinal stenosis.
I had an EMG to determine the cause of my peripheral neuropathy in the feet by my neurologist several years ago. Same procedure, but it took under 20 minutes first by a technician than the doctor. It is painful and had a point scab that lasted a month where the needle probe was inserted in the area of the cutoff. The reflective wave was elongated, suggesting an inflammation of the nerve myelin sheaf in that area. The main pulse and the reflective reminded me of an A-scan radar display. That was followed by a lumbar puncture (spinal tap on eleven?). The EMG and the tap provided a positive of an autoimmune disorder called CIDP (Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyneuropathy) which starts in both hands and/or feet. This sounds bad and it is if one does not get the proper treatment in time. This disorder has a 90% chance of long-term remission with some recovery of functions in the affected areas if treated quickly. Rare disorder, some are left in wheelchairs due to the delay in the diagnoses and the characteristics of their autoimmune system. My cousin had MS with the same symptoms. No cure for MS, I lost him at age 72, 11 months ago.
Had several EMG tests on my arms and even my legs once. Some people say it's moderately painful. Others say, it's not that bad. Depends of the technician or doctor doing the test. Some are a little rough on you. I've had the surgery done on my right hand over 10 years ago. Once the damage is done, there's no fixing it. The surgery just relieves the pain and numbness. I have severe nerve damage in both my hands and arms. Not shaking, but I can't feel the shape or position of small parts in my fingers anymore. Being a machinist, it makes my work more difficult, as now I have to look at the parts, to be sure they orientated in the correct position. Getting old sucks...
those machines are wizardry. I once tried to make an ecg using a couple of 741s and a cro, that was hard XD. Didn't have any fancy notch filters or anything so the voltage pickup from the mains to my boudy was a huge issue- the best grounding i could manage reduced the pickup down to some small fraction of a volt. which was many many times larger than the signal of interst. still too much noise when i hooked up the amplifier as differential (probably voltage rail noise, it's bleeding everywhere :D) ended up hooking one amplifier up to each oscilloscope channel inverting one to get the differential, and then manually tweaking the vernier so that the channels were balanced and the common mode noise disappeared. even then there was evidently a tiny phase difference between the amps that meant the common mode noise couldn't be cancelled completely. It was "visible" in the end, clearly my heart, but i couldn't see the detail very well ( a cro and its lack of persistence is not the best choice here XD) and all that was to try to measure a heart which is probably orders of magnitude higher in amplitude than the nerves in your arm ( you said microvolts, heart is about 1mv peak to peak) it kinda mad , would love to see the inside of one of those :D, got to have some beeeefy isolation to it.
Very interesting talk maybe something that i should go through.I suffer with electric shocks in my right arm.Its like being hit with a cattle prod.I take 6pills a day to try and stop it.Every now and then my left arm would tremor.Thank heavens for gabapentin tablets.Yes a very interesting talk.👍🤗🐻
The Cadwell Summit StimTroller (the handheld part that "shocks" you) specs a constant current range of 0 to 100mA (0.03mA resolution) and 400V maximum.
That's what I was thinking, it would inject a certain amount of current for a certain amount of time, and the resultant voltage not so important. Around 4:30 that's pretty much what she's saying.
Fran describes two hours worth of very unpleasant sounding testing. Then at about 6:42, "then the second phase, the more unpleasant phase was when...." I'm not sure I want to listen anymore after that. OK, morbid curiosity and the fact that I've been told I might need such a test will carry me along. But, later after I sleep and get back up. I don't want to be dreaming about this.
TENS units generally operate between 50 and 100 V in my experience so I'd assume it'd be in the same sort of ballpark. Though I assume the stimulators are constant-current so they probably push as much voltage as they need to to maintain the current (within sensible limits ;) ).
I had something similar when I had carpal tunnel problems,felt like something around 90 volts to me, I expect that voltage on the hands has to be a bit higher as the skin tends to be thicker and tougher there. Hope you dont have any thing too serious Fran.
Maybe 20 years ago , I built a TENS unit with two settings ...low was about 70 volts , high about 90. Enough to fire a NE-2 bulb. I suppose it's similar to that stimulator.
You made an unpleasant thing into a learning and educational opportunity, for sure, though I'm sorry you had to endure the discomfort. Question about Fran's internal circuitry, does it operate using 6 or 12 volts on the filament, in case we need to order spares for her?
For nerve stimulation it's the current that matters, not voltage. So I'd expect the skin conditions (dryness/oiliness, fat layer thickness, etc.) to affect the impedance path, meaning the voltage would and should vary with not just the patient, but the locations on a particular patient. For some folks it can be difficult to get current to penetrate the skin due to enhanced shallow lateral conduction, in which case alcohols or acetones may be used on the skin to weaken or interrupt that path. Similarly, using skin contact for sensor inputs is inferior to using ultra-fine needles that look like acupuncture needles with wires on them. The hard part there is proper positioning, where the needle must be place right next to the nerve, without puncturing it. Which is difficult, making the practice somewhat rare outside research environments, far more commonly used on lab animals rather than people (where uses for direct muscle stimulation dominate). I learned about this over 30 years ago when metallurgists at my employer were looking for additional applications for a metal alloy created on another project that had unique extrusion properties allowing it to be drawn into extremely fine wires that shared many characteristics with so-called "shape memory" alloys yet were much finer and stronger than wires made from those alloys. I looked into drivers and sensors for using the wire in biomedical applications. Unfortunately, the wire had some biocompatibility issues that were difficult to overcome, to the point that it would not be competitive with the standard stainless steel needles in the market. Edit: The difficulties were overcome by using various electroplating techniques combined with polymer insulation, which drastically increased the fabrication costs due to the extensive quality and uniformity testing needed to ensure a safe and consistent product.
There is a medical specialty called "Electrophysiology". The name says it all as it is the study of electrical circuitry in the body. A lady friend of mine was having heart "flutter" which was basically the heart going into self oscillation. She went to such a specialist and had a procedure where they make little cuts in the heart muscles. I talked to the specialist and said, "You are just cutting off the feedback paths." He said yes, but there is a lot of guesswork to it. While waiting, I studied a chart on the wall of various problematic heart rhythms. When he was done, he chatted with me awhile and I told him I had been studying that chart. He brought out some real charts to see if I could identify the problems. I got every one right. Even some that were complicated because they combined two issues. I credit my years of looking at oscilloscope waveforms for being able to "see" such things pretty easily. It's like when the game "Pong" first came out. I could beat anybody because I had the eye-hand coordination from years of turning that Y axis adjustment on scopes. Of course, my advantage didn't last long as others developed their skills and passed me by..
So how's the sinal runtime on those old wires, Fran? Or, to be a bit more blunt: I hope evrything checked out allright and is still within the manufacturer's specs? Or do you need any spares to swap 'em in?
Can you hook something like a mic preamp up to these electrodes on your hand? It should be pretty easy to build some electrodes, maybe just a striped wire and some tape, could already cut it? But I'm kinda worried a micpre could be top low in gain. Stay safe Fran
That’s so fascinating! I know David Rosenboom has been making music using neurological devices and measuring brainwaves for decades~ Very interesting stuff.
Terry, "19890"? Was that supposed to read 1890, 1989, or 1990? I really don't wanna think about what the 1890 version of this electroshock device would be like.....😝
So I guess thy found that you need your Flux Capacitor replaced. LOL Great story. I had this done once and the Dr didn't tell me what to expect. After the first shock I said that that must have been about 20ma because it hurt a little. He looked at me your right and then asked how I would know such a thing, it's because of my background I told hem. He'd never had tested anyone before that knew about electricity.
Yeah, I’ve had a couple of EMGs. Unpleasant. The doctor asked me if did electrical work (which I do) and explained that people who have been zapped on the job a few times are often the most uncomfortable with the test. Makes sense. ⚡️😕
I've had several nerve conduction tests, mainly focusing on my legs. Each time it was less than an hour, so it wasn't as involved as Fran's, but the same basic thing. The shocks really didn't bother me much. I told the technician that when I was 5 or 6, I played with the Christmas-tree lights and got shocked several times, so it was old hat. On the other hand, having a needle in a muscle while you flex it can be rather painful.
It's honestly not that bad. The needle is very sharp and you don't feel a whole lot except for the meaty part of your hand that's under the thumb. Lots of nerve endings there... very weird feeling. Otherwise, it's virtually painless... just a little uncomfortable. I've had this done a number of times on my neck, hands, feet and legs.
Just hope that you never develop type 2 diabetes! Pricking your fingertips to test your blood glucose levels 3 TIMES A DAY, and THEN injecting insulin, isn't much fun either! But at least the needles are reasonably short and thin!
How the emitting probe appeared makes me believe that the voltage cannot be very high. For operator "safety", there are limits to the voltages. Another background reasoning is that the human skin resistance is generally assumed to be in kilo-ohm range (and more when dry) we would supposedly need several volts in order to impose your mentioned tens of milliamperes. In fact, I speculate that the device is current regulated, so it compensates that way for the skin condition. On the other hand, they might have some conductivity enhancing substance at the probes. Or with the relatively fat electrodes, they may even depend on capacitive coupling. Interesting, as Big Clive uses to end his blogs.
Fran, the stimuli probably uses a current generator, so the voltage is highly variable depending on your skin resistance. Get similar sized probe and you can measure your skin resistance. If you know resistance and current, you have the voltage! No?
The OS runs the machine and programs, email is not functional nor is the internet. But USB ports can read data. Updating the computer within these machines may cost $X0,000 if supported by the new OS.
In case this helps someone, I had the exact same tests a long time ago (like 20 yrs) when I had shaky hands and weakness in my arms and shoulders over a period. I saw lots of doctors and was tested for just about everything in the world. In the end they said there was nothing wrong with me and they could not account for my symptoms. After that ON MY OWN I found the cause was me sleeping on my stomach to avoid snoring for years. It took me awhile, but when I got used to sleeping on my back and side again ALL the symptoms completely went away. I concluded I was pinching something in my neck. Although well intentioned, doctors are not always right.
The revenge of the circuits for years of painful soldering and testing!
"There she is! Prrrrrro o o o o o b e her!"
"YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAH"
*"You* are the circuit."
ahhh, ew
I'm 2 comments in and already laughing. Thank you all.
I had a nerve conduction test back in February for a worker's comp claim. Your description is spot-on.
Also, carpal tunnel sucks.
Glad you learned so much,had some fun,sort of....as a biomed technologist in Canada one of my favorite areas was omg. Had it done multiple times to verify my functions but also as a service tech did it to verify the technology. A well trained operator is the key as this can be a rote job without knowledge. Love them electrons.
Cool! Neuroscience on FranLab! Finally something directly in my wheelhouse. Great video Fran!
How does your comment say it's from 10 hours before the video?
@@WDCallahan I support Fran's Patreon so I get early access. You can too!
@@WDCallahan don't let this time traveller deceive you. Soon the worlds will merge and the Mandela effect will become the Mandala effect. Learn what you can from this leak in the matrix ; prepare while you can.
Is that Sally Ride in the top left? haven't noticed her there before
Yep, unsung hero of the Shuttle Challenger accident investigation, and LGBTQ icon.
@Paul J Pachasa JR and the hair would match
Fascinating insight Fran, thank you for sharing this with us.
I hope the results can help fine-tune you!
"nerves are very interesting complex structures (..) in nerves you've got a bucket brigade"
Best explanation ever. :-)
Very interesting Fran. Glad to see you are doing better. It shows!
Fran - devices like these use a current source output and can have compliance voltages of 100V or so.
I made this test twice and it's soportable, I've troubles un muy fingers, they clóset and then don'want to open without help but I've two that had been then repaired for brillante surgery and on a few Months Will be the third opered, fantastic solution, no pain and complete movement from the first momento.
Nerve conduction test! fun stuff!
I've had several of them of the years! Somewhat unpleasant indeed!
Long ago I had a similar test to troubleshoot carpal tunnel issue. The DR couldn't get his machine to turn on at first. After he worked on it for a while I pointed out to him the power plug was not in the wall.
I had a Carpal Tunnel test once. But they generate false positives because the doctor makes you counter his force when he first shocks you. The second time you're ready for the shock and so the second test gets the better reading naturally.
But, it wasn't carpal tunnel. I have a narrowing in my neck due to arthritis and bone spurs, it's actually bothering me tonight - it comes a day before it rains. I'm getting the skin crawling effect, not fun.
I had this test done also. Using a TENS device has a very similar feel when you crank it up to full power! Very interesting video Fran and well explained to boot. Thanks for posting this.
Like in Tron: "Bring in the logic probe!" I had one of these. If you didn't pay them to do it, they'd be up on torture charges.
Fascinating bit of experimental neurology. Wish you the best on your health. If you take as good care of your internal electrical circuits as you do for your external ones, you should be in tip top shape in no time!
Fascinating. I'm probably not the only one here looking at the oscilloscope over on the bench and thinking about giving it a try.
I have experienced tests of the sort several times. A leg or an arm in ice water was the "cold side" of the test. Both arms and legs. This was 20 to 40 years ago, Results were not explained in much detail. I think I was more of a test sample when they were trying to determine if "Post Polio Syndrome" was measurable. I didn't hear anything for years until I was in for surgery when we knew I would be in bed for a week and they provided several comfort aids that were new to my personal experience.
When I asked why I was told that they always used leg compression units and an adjustable, patient-controlled more flexible bed when dealing with people with a history of polio. So, many years after the testing that I underwent I found out there are long-delayed issues that may appear. 30 years ago I was told that it wasn't real and that if something was present there were no treatments so we should forget about it.
The result was that issues may show up long after recovery. And recovery was defined as being able to walk well enough to get around.
Sometimes, slowly, medicine makes progress.
6:50 I have dystonia and have to get botox shots regularly, so I know exactly what that thing is as they use one on me all the time. A little white box with a speaker, alligator clips, and needles (in my case with, the medicine needles are the conductors). The sound is exactly as you described, like radio static that gets lounder the further they plunge the needle in or when you move. When I first had it done the doctor accidenly got the probes to close and it suddenly screeched like mic feedback (scared the crap out of me).
This was such a shocking event.
But your electric personality shined through :)
I have had numerous EMGs in my life. They are not fun for the patient, but for the person giving the test it can be quite amusing. I had the tests for diagnosing spinal issues.
@ElectraFran: I've had these a couple of times for a botched surgery which left my left hand useless. The useless part is not as bad as the cold part. The nerve just doesn't even know half of the hand is there so it never tries to heat it. It's the worst nueropathy medically possible. I am wearing a thick "heatlocker" winter glove even now in the middle of a very warm summer. Be glad your symptoms are slight!
There's always someone worse off, so yeah, be thankful.
Makes sense, heat generally speeds up chemical reactions, cooling slows them down.
Hiya Fran. Yip, EMGs, I've had a few tests in the past. One for my legs in 2009 and recently again when I got Sepsis, went into septic shock and lost some of my toes due to Necropathy.. Turns out I had severe axonal nerve damage. But yeah very cool tests.
Yep, had more or less the same done on my feet and legs at the Walton Centre six years ago when I contracted Guillian- Barré Syndrome. Not pleasant, but necessary. I still have reduced sensation in both feet. Glad you survived it well enough to make this Fran, you're part of an elite group of us who've had their muscles revved up in the workshop!
;o)
Had a similar test for severed nerve in my leg big needles !
Yeah, EFF that test! Hahaha! Years after I had it done I needed documentation for an ongoing issue and the doctor his office and any medical records of my ever having the test are nowhere to be found. It's like a goddamn episode of Twilight Zone.
I've had EMGs on both my arms and right leg. The arms were pretty much exactly as you described. The leg OTOH... I have some serious nerve damage in my right leg from a blood clot years ago, and perhaps they had to use more current in the tests, but, unlike the somewhat unpleasant arms, it was agonizing. I was almost afraid to have the arms done years later, but they weren't so bad. I hope your results were good and help you and your doctors.
Wow awesome, very informative!! Hope you're feeling well Fran!
Hope you are well, Fran. Please take care!
I HAD THAT DONE AND FOUND OUT I HAD CARPAL TUNNEL AND HAD SURGERY ON MY LEFT HAND 🖐 A MONTH AGO NOW MY HAND 🖐 FEELS BETTER THANKS FOR SHARING I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS
Thanks for sharing your experience! Must have been very interesting! Hope you are ok though?
Fanastic sharing this =D I had the same tests done on my left leg earlier last year, so I can relate to this =D It can feel quite sharp when the higher current pulses pass through your nerves.
A bit off topic, but related, my dog recently had pups and I stumbled on an article that discussed the development of the pups senses. It takes about 10 days before their eyes open but it takes several more days before they are able to actually focus, see and recognize objects. They are also born deaf and it takes several days before their hearing starts to function.
And lastly, it takes as long as a month or more for their motor skills to develop, to control their muscles and what not. Reason being, it takes time for the melanin(?) sheaths to develop around their nerves, kind of like the outer insulating layer on an electrical wire.
I would think the voltage would change according to the mA they want. Since the resistance between the probes would remain the same the only way to increase the current steps would be to raise the voltage for each step.
I need to get one, been putting it off since I hate being shocked and know it’s just gonna be a major annoyance. Three hours?! Gosh. Bless your heart. Thanks for giving this great info to help me get mentally prepared for my procedure. Hopefully I won’t hulk-out when the 80 milliamps strikes. 😝
My Dr. Has been trying to get me tests like this for my arms pain but hasn't been able to due to covid19 and insurance dragging their @$$.
This video was really informative about what to expect.
It ain't fun that's for sure Bill but it's worth doing.
I've had a few as part of my Charcot-Marie-Tooth diagnosis. My first time included a needle in the tongue also. That was not fun.
I had this same test earlier this month to diagnose carpal tunnel syndrome (differential diagnosis to ensure it's not a pinched nerve from my neck.) The first test with the shocks, I could see the amplitude and timing of the "return" wave (I forget what it exactly was). I actually fell asleep while being shocked.
I may get tests like that eventually for my weird weak right leg and arm. Certainly my MRI scans of brain & neck didn't show anything to explain the symptoms.
Been there, done that, know what you were feeling. Sometimes it seemed similar to a time-domain reflectometer.
I hope they sort out your nerves OK. My mother had MS so we saw her nerve damage effects first hand. Best of luck. Get well soon Fran
Interesting . I've requested those for patients at work but never actually seen them done.
In 2005 I was being tested for ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease) and had the nerve conduction tests done with the needles from my neck to my feet. Good thing being stuck with needles has never bothered me.
Sounds kinda like a TDR for coaxial cables but testing myelin instead of foam
9:51 almost got a heart attack there until I realized it was Fahrenheit
BOILING WATER BABYYYYYYY
Fascinating! Yes, being that I've also been shocked quite a few times in my life, I was going to guess it's probably ~50VDC. But again, that's just a wild guess.
i done EMG for arm because i have nerve damage in Clavicle and numbness in right arm pinky. Quite an interesting experience
@7:45, sounded like television static. ... FEELS like television static. Or like those times you could tune the radio between two stations and pick up both.
I had a similar test with the needles jammed into my arm muscles. A very uncomfortable test, but not as uncomfortable as whatever is wrong with the nerves around my cervical vertebrae.
Become the frog leg! It is really cool stuff! Interesting how the propagation delay changes with temperature. I guess it slows down too with constriction, as in carpal tunnel syndrome. My electrocutioner said it was more painful on the legs. Glad I didn't get to experience that!
I had a "total body" EMG 30 years ago and the hands weren't so bad but the shocks in the legs were not the most fun. Like Fran, my curiosity about the test data, etc. helped take my mind off the shocks. I have to assume also that the newer test equipment probably does not need as much of a jolt to get the readings. I also assume everyone is different in terms of their resistivity (skin, musculature, fat, dry skin, etc.) and the machine has to compensate for that.
After a major auto accident I had this done on my left side. They tested all around the top of my thigh down through to my foot (it was crushed - none of the bones were in the right place - it took 2 surgeries to fix, and then I had to have one of the toes that wouldn't cooperate removed later on). There was a 1220 millisecond delay from my outer thigh to my ankle, and the signals from my inner thigh were lost (never detected in my ankle or foot). It was interesting, as I also learned a lot of interesting stuff.
The test that I thought was the coolest though was the kidney/bladder ultrasound. I got to see my kidney actually functioning, pushing the waste into my bladder, constantly along with heart beats. Never realized before then that the human body runs like a clocked circuit.
I’ve always had a fascination with medicine for the “debugging” aspect. Super cool to see on an EE channel!
A very interesting video. I'd like to learn more about this process. At this point I expect you to recreate this in the lab, minus the needles. 😁
Hope you’re okay Fran. Really interesting to see! I wonder if doctors can tell who are the techy people by how engaged we are with these sorts of things. I had an x-ray of my intestines once, I thought x-rays were only for bones and my doctor took great care to educate my about it all.
I had the same testing done a couple months back, and I'm to go back in a few weeks and consult with a neurologist about my peripheral neuropathy. Following that, I'm expecting spinal surgery for a lumbar fusion, L3-L4. I don't know what can be done about the ankylosing spondylitis or the spinal stenosis.
I had an EMG to determine the cause of my peripheral neuropathy in the feet by my neurologist several years ago. Same procedure, but it took under 20 minutes first by a technician than the doctor. It is painful and had a point scab that lasted a month where the needle probe was inserted in the area of the cutoff. The reflective wave was elongated, suggesting an inflammation of the nerve myelin sheaf in that area. The main pulse and the reflective reminded me of an A-scan radar display. That was followed by a lumbar puncture (spinal tap on eleven?). The EMG and the tap provided a positive of an autoimmune disorder called CIDP (Chronic Inflammatory Demyelinating Polyneuropathy) which starts in both hands and/or feet. This sounds bad and it is if one does not get the proper treatment in time. This disorder has a 90% chance of long-term remission with some recovery of functions in the affected areas if treated quickly. Rare disorder, some are left in wheelchairs due to the delay in the diagnoses and the characteristics of their autoimmune system. My cousin had MS with the same symptoms. No cure for MS, I lost him at age 72, 11 months ago.
On the screen display, it showed from O to P was 33.8uV. Which I would assume was onset to peak.
Had several EMG tests on my arms and even my legs once. Some people say it's moderately painful. Others say, it's not that bad. Depends of the technician or doctor doing the test. Some are a little rough on you. I've had the surgery done on my right hand over 10 years ago.
Once the damage is done, there's no fixing it. The surgery just relieves the pain and numbness.
I have severe nerve damage in both my hands and arms. Not shaking, but I can't feel the shape or position of small parts in my fingers anymore. Being a machinist, it makes my work more difficult, as now I have to look at the parts, to be sure they orientated in the correct position.
Getting old sucks...
those machines are wizardry. I once tried to make an ecg using a couple of 741s and a cro, that was hard XD. Didn't have any fancy notch filters or anything so the voltage pickup from the mains to my boudy was a huge issue- the best grounding i could manage reduced the pickup down to some small fraction of a volt. which was many many times larger than the signal of interst. still too much noise when i hooked up the amplifier as differential (probably voltage rail noise, it's bleeding everywhere :D) ended up hooking one amplifier up to each oscilloscope channel inverting one to get the differential, and then manually tweaking the vernier so that the channels were balanced and the common mode noise disappeared.
even then there was evidently a tiny phase difference between the amps that meant the common mode noise couldn't be cancelled completely.
It was "visible" in the end, clearly my heart, but i couldn't see the detail very well ( a cro and its lack of persistence is not the best choice here XD)
and all that was to try to measure a heart which is probably orders of magnitude higher in amplitude than the nerves in your arm ( you said microvolts, heart is about 1mv peak to peak)
it kinda mad , would love to see the inside of one of those :D, got to have some beeeefy isolation to it.
Very interesting talk maybe something that i should go through.I suffer with electric shocks in my right arm.Its like being hit with a cattle prod.I take 6pills a day to try and stop it.Every now and then my left arm would tremor.Thank heavens for gabapentin tablets.Yes a very interesting talk.👍🤗🐻
I think they are constant current devices and the voltage is a function of the resistance. that old ohms law trick.
The Cadwell Summit StimTroller (the handheld part that "shocks" you) specs a constant current range of 0 to 100mA (0.03mA resolution) and 400V maximum.
That's what I was thinking, it would inject a certain amount of current for a certain amount of time, and the resultant voltage not so important. Around 4:30 that's pretty much what she's saying.
After my stroke I had this test done (the second test) - lots of fun!
Fran describes two hours worth of very unpleasant sounding testing. Then at about 6:42, "then the second phase, the more unpleasant phase was when...." I'm not sure I want to listen anymore after that. OK, morbid curiosity and the fact that I've been told I might need such a test will carry me along. But, later after I sleep and get back up. I don't want to be dreaming about this.
Is this similar to a nerve conductivity test which I have had years ago?
Cute hat your wearing!
TENS units generally operate between 50 and 100 V in my experience so I'd assume it'd be in the same sort of ballpark.
Though I assume the stimulators are constant-current so they probably push as much voltage as they need to to maintain the current (within sensible limits ;) ).
I had something similar when I had carpal tunnel problems,felt like something around 90 volts to me, I expect that voltage on the hands has to be a bit higher as the skin tends to be thicker and tougher there. Hope you dont have any thing too serious Fran.
I injured the ulna nerves in both my arms and had this done. It is very unpleasant indeed, I would go as far as to say painful at times!
i had to get this done a few years ago. it was quite painful
Maybe 20 years ago , I built a TENS unit with two settings ...low was about 70 volts , high about 90. Enough to fire a NE-2 bulb. I suppose it's similar to that stimulator.
You made an unpleasant thing into a learning and educational opportunity, for sure, though I'm sorry you had to endure the discomfort. Question about Fran's internal circuitry, does it operate using 6 or 12 volts on the filament, in case we need to order spares for her?
For nerve stimulation it's the current that matters, not voltage. So I'd expect the skin conditions (dryness/oiliness, fat layer thickness, etc.) to affect the impedance path, meaning the voltage would and should vary with not just the patient, but the locations on a particular patient. For some folks it can be difficult to get current to penetrate the skin due to enhanced shallow lateral conduction, in which case alcohols or acetones may be used on the skin to weaken or interrupt that path.
Similarly, using skin contact for sensor inputs is inferior to using ultra-fine needles that look like acupuncture needles with wires on them. The hard part there is proper positioning, where the needle must be place right next to the nerve, without puncturing it. Which is difficult, making the practice somewhat rare outside research environments, far more commonly used on lab animals rather than people (where uses for direct muscle stimulation dominate).
I learned about this over 30 years ago when metallurgists at my employer were looking for additional applications for a metal alloy created on another project that had unique extrusion properties allowing it to be drawn into extremely fine wires that shared many characteristics with so-called "shape memory" alloys yet were much finer and stronger than wires made from those alloys. I looked into drivers and sensors for using the wire in biomedical applications. Unfortunately, the wire had some biocompatibility issues that were difficult to overcome, to the point that it would not be competitive with the standard stainless steel needles in the market.
Edit: The difficulties were overcome by using various electroplating techniques combined with polymer insulation, which drastically increased the fabrication costs due to the extensive quality and uniformity testing needed to ensure a safe and consistent product.
Is that a portrait of Sally Ride on the wall?
Yes
There is a medical specialty called "Electrophysiology". The name says it all as it is the study of electrical circuitry in the body. A lady friend of mine was having heart "flutter" which was basically the heart going into self oscillation. She went to such a specialist and had a procedure where they make little cuts in the heart muscles. I talked to the specialist and said, "You are just cutting off the feedback paths." He said yes, but there is a lot of guesswork to it. While waiting, I studied a chart on the wall of various problematic heart rhythms. When he was done, he chatted with me awhile and I told him I had been studying that chart. He brought out some real charts to see if I could identify the problems. I got every one right. Even some that were complicated because they combined two issues. I credit my years of looking at oscilloscope waveforms for being able to "see" such things pretty easily. It's like when the game "Pong" first came out. I could beat anybody because I had the eye-hand coordination from years of turning that Y axis adjustment on scopes. Of course, my advantage didn't last long as others developed their skills and passed me by..
please switch on subtitles [CC] Closed captioning
So how's the sinal runtime on those old wires, Fran? Or, to be a bit more blunt: I hope evrything checked out allright and is still within the manufacturer's specs? Or do you need any spares to swap 'em in?
Do birds experience time at a faster rate due to shorter nerve length and general size. I think to them we seem to move in sloooowww motion.....
I had one for my paralyzed leg. They used the needle for almost all of mine. It's not something I recommend.
Yes had the same thing with my leg after serious accident bloody big needles . Have a main nerve severed by shattered bone.
@@barrymayson2492 still have the severed nerve or have you since recovered?
Can you hook something like a mic preamp up to these electrodes on your hand? It should be pretty easy to build some electrodes, maybe just a striped wire and some tape, could already cut it?
But I'm kinda worried a micpre could be top low in gain.
Stay safe Fran
That’s so fascinating! I know David Rosenboom has been making music using neurological devices and measuring brainwaves for decades~ Very interesting stuff.
I had this test. Surface for the nerves in my forearm, and then intramuscular in my hand. It was not pleasant.
Just wondering if you got plenty of Heathkits at Christmas ...
When I hook my scope probes up to each side of my head, the signal is shaped like a fish. What does that mean?
@@richter6918 That actually sounds like an improvement on my current diet and living habits 😂
My hands often get very cold, and it's fascinating, and frustrating, and a little uncanny just how much they slow down.
Try some Wim Hof method🤔
I had the archaic version of that back in 19890, very , very painful.
Terry, "19890"? Was that supposed to read 1890, 1989, or 1990? I really don't wanna think about what the 1890 version of this electroshock device would be like.....😝
@@goodun2974 LOL 1989, maybe I need to get tested again!!!
So I guess thy found that you need your Flux Capacitor replaced. LOL Great story. I had this done once and the Dr didn't tell me what to expect. After the first shock I said that that must have been about 20ma because it hurt a little. He looked at me your right and then asked how I would know such a thing, it's because of my background I told hem. He'd never had tested anyone before that knew about electricity.
Yeah, I’ve had a couple of EMGs. Unpleasant. The doctor asked me if did electrical work (which I do) and explained that people who have been zapped on the job a few times are often the most uncomfortable with the test. Makes sense. ⚡️😕
I've had several nerve conduction tests, mainly focusing on my legs. Each time it was less than an hour, so it wasn't as involved as Fran's, but the same basic thing. The shocks really didn't bother me much. I told the technician that when I was 5 or 6, I played with the Christmas-tree lights and got shocked several times, so it was old hat. On the other hand, having a needle in a muscle while you flex it can be rather painful.
As soon as you said needle, I knew I never want this to happen to me.
It's honestly not that bad. The needle is very sharp and you don't feel a whole lot except for the meaty part of your hand that's under the thumb. Lots of nerve endings there... very weird feeling. Otherwise, it's virtually painless... just a little uncomfortable.
I've had this done a number of times on my neck, hands, feet and legs.
Just hope that you never develop type 2 diabetes! Pricking your fingertips to test your blood glucose levels 3 TIMES A DAY, and THEN injecting insulin, isn't much fun either! But at least the needles are reasonably short and thin!
@@hectorpascal well thanks to some engineers and other science ppl now have those Glucose monitor devices and insulin pumps
@@YT-Observer Yep - great if you can afford them!
The Fran does not need to be shot for her troubles. The Fran works as intended. Any misgivings about the Fran's operation are purely user error.
I think you missed covering one basic point about the test. Why did you want or need it to be done?
Hope you are doing OK.
How the emitting probe appeared makes me believe that the voltage cannot be very high. For operator "safety", there are limits to the voltages. Another background reasoning is that the human skin resistance is generally assumed to be in kilo-ohm range (and more when dry) we would supposedly need several volts in order to impose your mentioned tens of milliamperes. In fact, I speculate that the device is current regulated, so it compensates that way for the skin condition. On the other hand, they might have some conductivity enhancing substance at the probes. Or with the relatively fat electrodes, they may even depend on capacitive coupling. Interesting, as Big Clive uses to end his blogs.
5:98 Would 60 V DC actually do anything if the skin is still intact?
Fran, the stimuli probably uses a current generator, so the voltage is highly variable depending on your skin resistance. Get similar sized probe and you can measure your skin resistance. If you know resistance and current, you have the voltage! No?
Rule number one of Troubleshooting: Thou shall measure voltages.
Guess that also applies to people.
I suppose we can figure out the voltage if we know the impedance of Fran. Going by rough estimates 30-40V seems reasonable though.
@DARK APPERITION Measure The Fran!
Interesting topic! Have you done any tests with your own EGM probes?
The ulnar nerve is no joke
I'm so glad to not see Windows XP on the medical device computer ;)
Yeah who needs security on a device full of patient medical data.
The OS runs the machine and programs, email is not functional nor is the internet. But USB ports can read data. Updating the computer within these machines may cost $X0,000 if supported by the new OS.
Or Windows 8