now i understand what palpatin meant when he said that some sith powers may seem unnatural "lagends tell of darth plguse the wise, he found a way to fix disney star wars and make it imortal again" "can i learn of this way" "hell no, disney would kill you, they already control the galaxy, you shouldnt make a residtens" "then i will make a ribelion"
People are making WAY too much out of a comment Rian made fifteen years ago about his first film and assuming he wanted half the fanbase to hate The Last Jedi. He wants to make films that no one feels lukewarm about, because basically no great film has achieved the reaction of everyone feeling basically okay about it. Great films have always been polarizing, not because the director tried to piss people off, but because when you venture into anything like new territory, polarizing audiences is inevitable. I also think Last Jedi is the worst Star Wars film, but I'm not going to pretend not to understand what he meant.
Not all great films are polarizing. The original Star Wars wasn't, there are lists of great movies that aren't. Not everybody is going to like something but that is way different from being polarizing. If 5% of people don't like something that's not the same as 50% not liking something.
I don't hate that idea in theory, but that's not a philosophy you bring to an established franchise. Not to Star Wars. If he wants to do that with his own completely original movie then fine. More power to him. I'm fine with that. But that's not going to work with Star Wars.
The only time that worked was with "The Prisoner", since Patrick McGoohan wanted people to think about the philosophical concepts about freedom and society. But that fits with the surrealism of "The Prisoner", and not really with the space fantasy setting of "Star Wars".
Totally, that's why I don't like him, not because his awful movie and ideas, but because he thinks of himself as this controversial but genius writer/director, but when face with criticism he will get salty.
The guy is a troll. He literally loves trolling people so he can "drink their tears" though in reality it is a self defense mechanism for deflecting and not dealing with critical comments and guarding self against admiting you suck.
Why doesn’t anyone ever bring up how Disney started this trilogy hating on the prequels. They threw out George’s sequels. Then they made a bunch of subtle jabs about how they were not gonna use green screens or make the lightsaber fights look to “staged” . Then they all but snubbed them as far as references go in tfa. In an ironic twist of fate the prequels are loved and the sequels are hated
Prequels still suck. There is a cohesive story there but the execution of the story is terrible. There was an overuse of CGI and wooden acting and dialogue. The sequels do everything right from a movie making standpoint such as writing and the look and feel of the films, but failed at the most important part, they didn't have a complete story arc.
RockKobe29 I see your point but I don’t really think the dialogue was any more horrible then anything else from the early 2000s. I think the fights were great I think the cgi might have been over done but it mostly holds up even by today’s standards and I think the story is for the most part seamless and well thought out. I think Hayden plays a convincing darth Vader. He follows the same vocal patterns of James earl Jones. He just doesn’t have the awesome voice. The sequels had horrible dialogue as well. Such as “we don’t win by fighting what we hate. But saving what we love.” That’s equally as bad as I hate sand haha
@@Hikaru3899 the general consensus was dialogue and delivery was terrible. Maul fight was awesome. Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight was great, a little long. The overall look was too clean, no matter which planet. Hayden sounded whiney. The sand line is terrible and the Rose line is just as bad. The actual written stuff being bad along with the delivery of most lines. Anakin, Padme, Young Ani, ...everything is wooden and stiff and at times boring. The story was simple, and everyone knew what it was from Epi 1 to 3. Awesome set pieces like Maul fight, Duel on Mustafar, the Pod Race are awesome, but everything in between is just bland. Most of the interesting story developments like the actual Clone War, Anakin and Obi-Wan adventures, character development, takes place off screen. You have to read novels, watch the Clone Wars show to actually get a feel for what's going on. In the movies, Anakin is an annoying kid that grows into an, arrogant but whiney adult, that falls to the dark side. General Grievous is pathetic and a joke in Epi 3. For me and a lot of fans the prequels were bad, they were bad when they were released, and they are bad now. The flaws and shortcomings of the sequels don't suddenly make them any better.
As people had said, the ST is a family type of problem. JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson is those ex fighting for the child while the ST which had much promise is that child.
@RZR MarzBarz An OT remake posing as a sequel would have been better than The Last Jedi times three. At least the OT remake wouldn't have busted canon for the sake of it like Last Jedi did every chance it got. My vote goes to Colin Trevorrow, because from what we know about Duel of the Fates he at least had some idea how to handle a longstanding franchise without either just remaking part of it with new characters or treating it like it's a brand new franchise without longstanding rules and preestablished characters.
JJ messed up ST with TFA, he wrote them into corner before Johnson, he got this annoying obsession with OT (Han acting like 30y/o), same conflict rebellion vs empire (but without logic or world building), spectacle over story and characters, Rey as a mary sue (where can you go with protagonist like that), hate for PT, TFA doesn't have a resolution or ending, everything was left for the second movie (dumb mystery boxes), JJ (and Lucas) exiled Luke not Johnson, Johnson couldn't kill Snoke if he wanted, he must have been told to do that, and let's not forget JJ was executive producer on TLJ
@@thorthewolf8801 I didn't include Finn becouse it would made the comment extra long, but exactly, like one moment he has panic attacks because his friend got shot and next he is having fun with poe shooting fellow stormtroopers, making them stolen children was dumb, because they were meant to be expandable and wherever they were shown to be killed for laugh it was tone deaf, and how they marked him as jedi ugh
I totally agree, TFA set the ball rolling for an empty shell of a trilogy, the laziness just to rename the Empire and bring them back super powerful with endless resources and no explanation is unforgivable in my opinion as a Star Wars fan, he undermined the previous 6 films before TLJ was even created.
Throughout my own writing I was slowly learning that you can't just have plot twists for the sake of having plot twists. Last Jedi then went and confirmed that for me so hard that I'll never forget it.
@davisboyer I wouldn't call them plot twists per se, but rather contradictory or unexplained plot points. Sure, Luke says that "the force is whstever the fuck Rian Johnson wants it to be" but having Leia flying through space and Luke suddenly being able to make visual manifestations of himself appearing on other extremes of the galaxy requires at least some way of foreshadowing, if not, what stops Luke from using the force to just blow up the whole First Order's ships and end the war on a conviniant and anticlimactic way? Second, several themes on the film don't make any god damn sense. At the start Rose's sister dies defending the resistance which makes her feel a duty to the cause that her sister died fighting for, so he stops Fin from deserting the resistance and oblies him to keep fighting for the casue, then, when the First Order is attacking the last remains of the resistance and are about to annihilate the whole resistance, Fin tries to crash his ship on the main weapon to save everybody only for Rose to stupidly stopping him on a manoeuvre that: first, should have killed both of them and second, would've in fact killing the whole resistance had Luke not shown up at the last minute, something she didn't know would happen.
Johnsons whole catalog is stand alone deconstructive films. He has never shown himself to be a collaborator. I'm honestly not sure who thought dropping him in the middle of a series at the most important part was the smart play to make in the first place or why they did.
Nah, that's just pseudo intellectual subversion, deconstructions are actually cool, the prequels were a deconstruction of the hero's journey where it all goes to shit
@@darthtroller the prequels were a straight up classical Fallen Hero/tragic arc It's not a subversion at all, it's the opposite kind of arc, and has been well-established since ancient Greek storytelling (Achilles is a perfect example)
@@347Jimmy Yeah, that doesn't contradict what I said, this deconstruction method, while ancient is still deconstruction, subversion on the other hand is completely different and it's a terrible writing tool most of the time
@@darthtroller I'm not sure why you think that it's deconstructive It's practically an opposite arc, that has nothing to do with deconstruction By the same token you could claim that the Hero's Journey is a deconstruction of the Fallen Hero It isn't, they're two different arcs
Rian Johnson destroyed that trilogy beyond repair. I’ll never forget leaving the theatre and wanting so badly to like that movie and feeling so disappointed in what I saw. I had no expectations. I just thought it would be obvious that Luke would want to help his sister and then train Rey and have a really great master apprentice kind of vibe similar to yoda and Luke in Empire. Luke being a cranky old man who doesn’t want to help was just wrong as far as who he is as a character. Rian doesn’t understand Star Wars at its core or he just wanted to change it. Either way it’s a big fat fail that we all now must live with.
We all remember that sinking feeling. I left feeling disgusted, insulted, and depressed. Before TLJ I had never missed a live action theatrical run of any SW movie. Even rereleases. After TLJ, I just can't bring myself to care.
Preach man. I remember leaving the theatre and trying to justify all the poor choices just so that I would like it. And I couldn’t. I felt like there was so many wasted opportunity’s. Where was the true Luke? Where was ghost anakin and obi wan? Where was the knights of ren? I was so bummed
Let's not forget that Johnson has also mentioned that he did not like writing something for a already established universe, and that a series of movies with a start and a end in 3 movies or more was not something that he did not like. He only went for his own story, not caring it seemed for how this story would end. I mean, if he cared, he would at least have taken something from Abrams script for episode 8 as well as writing his own script for episode 9 to give to the next director.
Except that even on its own it's a god damn awful fucking movie. Even if you ignore the prestablished lore of the OT and precuels, it doesn't make sense on its own. Purple hair gal says that Poe shouldn't sacrifice himself, proceeds to sacrifice herself; Luke says Jedi should dissapear, teaches Rey the jedi teachings; Rose gets mad a Fin for trying to desert the resistance, proceeds to prevent Fin from saving the rebelion, etc.
What up Thor! I just want to give you a shout out👏👏👏👏👏👏I’ve been a big fan of your videos for the last several years and I really do sincerely appreciate the depths of your discussions, your thoughtfulness and the cool insights that you always seem to bring to the overall Star Wars discussion. You’re absolutely awesome, keep up the GREAT WORK! May the force be with you!
JJ Abrams had more power and influence over the sequel trilogy then Ryan Johnson. He was executive producer of the last jedi for crying out loud. If he was unhappy with what Johnson was doing with the last jedi he could have stopped him but happily went along with it and only distance himself from it after the backlash upon release
He really didn't have much say, at all, about what went on with TLJ. If he did, he would have required Johnson to stick to the plan he began. Remember, Johnson was already writing TLJ, while JJ was finishing filming TFA. It was Johnson who requested that JJ change the ending of TFA ( where Luke Skywalker was very much Jedi Master Supreme, and connected to The Force), because Johnson wished to present Luke Skywalker as broken, suicidal, and intentionally cut-off from The Force. Obviously, Rian Johnson and Kathy Kennedy were never very concerned with HOW The ST would be logical and cohesive overall...just telling the story the way they wanted, infusing it with the concepts they deemed important to their collective vision. That's why an insanely high amount of Star Wars Fans can tell that Favreau and Filoni's The Mandalorian is an entirely different animal from The ST.
@@anthonyyoutubefan7567 No. JJ Abrams absolutely had no plan behind his nostalgia ripoff clusterf*ck & you're simply making assumptions on his behalf. He was executive producer & was well aware of what Rian Johnson was writing the entire time & was perfectly fine with it.
@@rickyandreou It's already been all but confirmed JJ had treatments for both episodes 8 and 9. If you didn't like TFA that's cool but saying Abrams didn't have a plan is just appears to be factually wrong and even if that was the case doesn't justify the mess that is TLJ.
@@thaThRONe You're entitled to believe in whatever "all but confirmed" internet rumors you want to but they're still just that. The idea of Abrams having some conveniently secret over arching plan laid out for the trilogy(& also inexplicably powerless to stop Johnson from altering it) , despite having an infamous track record of the exact opposite, to be utterly laughable. If you like TFA, that's fine but if you didn't like TLJ or TROS you can thank TFA/Abrams apologism for contributing to their existence.
Personally, I think the one that dropped the ball was JJ Abrams with TFA. The movie never built something new, it was just a movie to please those nostalgic OT people who hated Prequel George Lucas. And that was a huge mistake. This trilogy feel so empty and doesn't make any sense in the Star Wars timeline.
Two points. 1. Deus is pronounced day-us, not duece. That means something very different. 2. I am tired of people saying TLJ's story is fine as a self-contained story. If that was actually true, there would not be so many plot holes in it. For example, in the Canto Bight sequence, Finn and Rose are looking for the one person outside of the First Order who can hack the sensor that tracked the Resistance through hyperspace, but they get arrested for illegal parking before they can say a word to him. At that I nearly shouted in the theater "Let a plot point happen! Stop setting things up just so you can not deliver them". Then what happens? Finn and Rose find a second person outside the First Order who can hack the sensor who just happens to be in the same jail cell. After it was established there is only one person who can help, it turns out there are two after the search for the first person was turned into a joke. If that doesn't scream plothole made for the sake of comedy followed by plothole for the sake of being able to continue the plot, then what does scream plothole for people?
It was established that Maz Kanata (the person they called for advice) knew of one person that could and likely would help. Never was it said or implied he was the only one.
@@TrotmanOwl Maz told them there was only one person who could hope to crack it. The other probably knew Finn and Rose were resistance fighters, and planned to get a reward for betraying them all along.
AntarcticMagpie yes but what I’m saying is that’s according to Maz. It’s speculation to say he’s the literal only one in the universe who COULD crack it. Hell, someone had to build it. There’s another person who’d know how to crack it right there.
AntarcticMagpie wait, did we just have a polite exchange about some Star Wars thing we didn’t agree on? Put this one in the history books boys because it most likely won’t happen again.
@@Corn_Pone_Flicks OK so he unintentionally made half the fan base hate it. That's worse. Now he is just a dumbass who cost Disney millions to billions in lost fan revinue and nobody in Kennedyfilm was smart enough to stop him
@@Corn_Pone_Flicks I think he just said what would make him seem, I dunno, deep? I don't think he ever really believed that. Sort of like how, when he was promoting The Last Jedi, he had a lot of crowd pleasing lines like: "No fanservice, because you guys hate that, we're telling an original story and going in wild and crazy directions! Subverting expectations! Woo!" But, like, Kubrick could get away with saying those lines because his movies were really good, and people liked his movies. So, like, him saying: "People don't like 2001: A Space Odyssey because they think it's boring, but I don't care because it's the movie I wanted to make," results in a crowd of people praising the movie because they see it as an act of defiance. They love the movie because they're smart enough to understand it, not like those dimwits who hate it. Rian Johnson just isn't good enough to justify saying those things. So, when he says: "I want half of the audience to hate my film," and it isn't very good, or worse, is littered with poor storytelling decisions and technical flaws, he just comes across as a bit of an idiot, not the intelligent auteur he thinks he is.
I disagree with JJ not having an idea of where it was going. I felt like episode 7 was very clear in where he thought each character should end up: Kylo would come good (kills his dad), Rey was related to Luke (linked to light saber), Luke was coming back to fight alongside Leia (why else would you use the biggest hero in the galaxy for one scene on an island if you knew the next dude was gonna kill him off while working from home), Leia was the next to go (episode 8 would have been her downfall as Kylos next target to weaken/anger Luke) and Snoke wasnt going to be a clone puppet of a dead sith lord (pretty sure there was an explanation that he was around before and during the empire in a real way when ep 7 came out.) They missed so much so Disney could give us great films, but zero story that any fan cared about.
The other big issue with Johnson is that he's explicitly admitted that he doesn't do world-building. But world building is part and parcel of the definition of Star Wars. That was the job. He took the money, but didn't do what he was hired for.
Exactly. This was a sequel to a previous film...yet it acted almost as if it were a stand-alone movie....an absolute oxymoron. I guarantee: Hollywood has and will continue to use this cluster#uck of a movie as the example of what NOT TO DO with film-making...especially when that film is a part of a lengthy, long-standing franchise. Honestly, I wonder what someone like Kevin Feige thinks of Johnson's handling of George Lucas' universe? We may find out sooner than later.
That's not Johnson's fault. It's the fault of the person who hired him, knowing that Johnson doesn't do worldbuilding and that the world is the central aspect of what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
@@liljenborg2517 Well, the person that propably had a big say in his hiring doesn't actually care about Star Wars, but only about agenda and money. And it was rather obvious to see that thats the case now, wasn't it. I am still astonished Disney didn't just fire her after those three movies, its just one big disaster
@@Rakshiir Yes, well, on the one hand, Disney (as a whole) was pretty much behind her agenda, too. On the other hand, if they fired her, they'd get all sorts of flack over the sexism of firing the most powerful woman in Hollywood (right when the whole Me Too thing was a big deal). She had them coming and going, so to speak. That made it easier, all around, to try and shame the fans into liking the movies, or at least faking it to escape the "toxic man-baby" label. This only made the fans more vocally angry. Which, of course, only made everything an even bigger disaster.
@@Rakshiir Firing her could also cause further problems, as she very much has "her people" installed in Lucasfilm who could make things very messy if they felt she was pushed out unfairly. Disney needs to have an indisputable point of failure to counteract that factional loyalty.
Great video. I'm gonna be "that guy." Future reference, it's pronounced "Day-oos" ex machina. I've been saying this for a while, and you said it great as well. RJ isn't necessarily bad, he just works best in his own sandbox, and doesn't care to be beholden to previous story constraints, which is the exact opposite of what you want in an ongoing series and universe.
I disagree on Abrams: He decided what SET-PIECES he wanted to copy, and forced the characters to get the story to each, regardless of actual character or how they should behave.
Calling Abrams the King of the Mystery box approach goes a little too far in my opinion. He’s more the court jester of the Mystery box approach, as in he sets up these mysteries all the time, but when it is time to deliver on them he usually falls flat.
His mystery box idea isn’t even his. It’s a well established element of writing called Chekhov’s guns, only in JJs case, he doesn’t provide any payoffs.
Hey Thor I hope this comment is actually close enough to the beginning for you to read, love your channel and thank you for all you do, my beliefs are in line with yours about star wars, so please keep it up!!!!!
Thor Skywalker hey Thor first wanna day I’m a huge fan and I agree with op; second I was doing my Latin homework while I listened to the video and “deus” is actually pronounced “day-oos”; it’s not the same as Greek like Zeus :) Hope you find that interesting. Huge fan. Keep up the good work! I love your style of being fairly critical without necessarily being too harsh; you aren’t just trying to shred apart Ryan’s reputation (as enjoyable as that might be) and you’re open to more than just the dominant side of things; I really appreciate that:)
It’s never made sense to me that Kylo would want to “finish what his grandfather started.” How does the son of Han and Leia and the nephew of Luke, idolize Vader? Did noone tell him about Anakins redemption?
Well maybe that was an intriguing task set on the Force Awakens to fill in the gap and construct a character arc, but nah, let's make Luke drink alien milk and trying to kill his nephew like a fucking morron. Just to clarify, I didn't like The Force Awakens, but it was made in a way that allowed the sequels to construct a narrative with multiple, if shallow, characters. An Idea that Johnson completely dismissed in favour of a self indulgent ego driven that isn't able to tell a comprehensive narrative on its own, let alone as a sequel to a 9 part saga.
To me, thats also true. Not in my canon. Just because they destroy to much of the movies that I love. They destroy not only Luke, but also the whole Anakin arc in a way, since his turn to the light and save the galaxy just is thrown into the dumpster by the fact that Palpatine survived in a way.
@@Rakshiir everything really became a joke... Anakins redemption, Luke Skywalker, Palpatine, the Force, Jedi, even the Skywalker name means nothing anymore ;-;
@@VibingMeike I would't say that they are bad fanfiction because that implies that they are written by fans and people with so little knowledge and understanding of the whole galaxy their franchise is placed in can hardly be seen as fans
There were two really great ways the last trilogy could have gone but didn't. 1) Snoke was Darth Plagueis, having fooled Palpatine that he'd been 'killed in his sleep.' And, he would have been the creator of Anakin, grandpa of all Skywalkers. 2) Palpatine returning (in IX) reveals he's always been Plagueis, taking his former apprentice's appearance when he tried to kill him in his sleep and killing him in return. Again, grandpa to all Skywalkers.
now i understand what palpatin meant when he said that some sith powers may seem unnatural "lagends tell of darth plguse the wise, he found a way to fix disney star wars and make it imortal again" "can i learn of this way" "hell no, disney would kill you, they already control the galaxy, you shouldnt make a residtens" "then i will make a ribelion"
It's actually really selfish of Johnson to do what he did with TLJ. He could have made a standalone star wars movie if he wanted a self contained story and it might have been good but you can't do something like that when it's the 8th movie in a 9 movie series.
Can we just be honest with ourselves here? JJ screwed it up from the jump and Rian took it a step further and then JJ added to the fuckery that he started and Rian played off of. Neither of these guys know shit about Star Wars and it’s glaring in each of the sequels.
The buck stops with Kathleen Kennedy. All of her decisions destroyed Star Wars Sequels. What a waste. She viewed Star Wars simply as a means to an end: a platform to elevate women at the expense of denigrating men, both hero and villain. In addition, her INNEPTITUDE has been on full display, approving storylines that went totally against SW Canon, and her lack of any COHESIVE long-term plan for this billion dollar franchise. She's the wrong woman for the job and the sooner she's gone the better.
I would agree if she didn't ruin Lea same as other characters from the old trilogy. She wanted to make new characters better than old ones, but the way she did it, she made caricatures instead of characters.
Personally, I think they need to start over. The entire sequel trilogy is such a mess that it doesn’t make any sense. Start fresh but this time have a dang plan. Learn from the mistakes that they’ve made. God knows they made plenty. Additionally, keep the modern political garbage and agendas out. That just made the movies even worse
I think in the end, both JJ and Rian actually hurt their own careers with those movies. Rian propably more than JJ, since I think the first movie was still okay... not great, but okay and had some good ideas for the next movie(s). And I think he actually tried to fix the issues the second movie caused, but in my opinion, that just was a task that was impossible. But Rian going basically to war with the fandom, trying to push his own stupid ideas in just to spite JJ and the fans is beyond me. In the end, you should be glad you got to work on such a grand universe, on such a beloved franchise, and maybe it's a good idea to do something the fans will love. Because if such a big audience loves your movie, they might watch other projects, which helps your career. But if you spite them, they will propably be VERY careful even with non SW movies you made. I for sure am one such person. Of course, everyone can have a bad project, and just fail even though he tried his best. But if you hear the backlash, to double down on your shit just to spite them even more is in my opinion a stupid move. It would have been better if you actually have an open mind to the critisism of long time fans. But thats not what creators these days do... rather just go ahead and call them all toxic, go to the media and let them call them all sorts of things, before you admit some ideas might not have been that great. Because for sure, if 10 media sites and 1 director says that all the million and million fans who are disappointed and or angry are just toxic and don't get the movie, they will all just fall in line, right? Thats how humans react to being attacked...
Their is people who like the sequels, some who will try defend in any way they can. Theirs is fans of sequels. Their not in majority as far as I've seen, you see can that with hasbro shifting focuses on prequels/ clone wars and ot, rebels seeing as those makes way more money than sequels products. Disney is making way more shows around prequel, ot and after the return of jedi. Nothing really anything deeply tied to the sequels.
I have, I'm sorry to say. I don't want to pull a "No True Star Wars Fan" logical fallacy, because some of the folks I've met who do like it enough to have merchandise, or even feature it in their "man cave" collections. That said, though I can't speak for everyone, and I'm sure they do exist, none of these people who liked the ST were particularly versed in Star Wars lore or emotionally invested in it. When discussing the movies and the franchise as a whole, by their own admission, they didn't know much beyond what they had seen in the movies. Each one was more an enthusiast of all things "nerdy," with their passion, if any, clearly devoted to something else, like Star Trek or Dr. Who. I'm like that with Star Trek; I've seen most of the movies, I've watched some of TNG, and I enjoy what I have consumed, some of it thoroughly. But the only piece of that franchise I am truly passionate about is The Wrath of Khan, which is one of my all-time favorite movies and is, I believe, truly Great. I've watched it countless times, quote or reference it regularly, and am occasionally even moved to tears when simply reflecting on its ending scenes. But while I do consider myself a fan of that film, I wouldn't call myself a "Star Trek fan," or Trekkie. The word "fan" is shortened from "fanatic." And though most now use it simply to denote someone who enjoys a thing, I feel it necessitates a devotion beyond casual enjoyment, or even moderate enthusiasm. I won't tell people they aren't--or can't be--Star Wars fans, and I am certain my depth of knowledge of the galaxy is piddling compared to some. I'm just saying that among the people I've met and discussed Star Wars with, there's a definite correlation between casualness of investment and enjoyment of the sequels. Then again, you've had several people respond to your comment saying they liked the ST, who also care enough about Star Wars to be watching RUclips videos about it. So there goes my whole case, out the window.
Snoke: Your helmet is stupid. Kylo: Yeah well... your... throne... is stupid! After Kylo leaves, Snoke stares at his throne before proceeding to smash it. RJ: "And that was a scene in the first draft we never got around to filming..."
It is one thing to make a movie with a message within it, but it a whole other thing when you make a movie a part of a greater storyline. That is why the entire sequel trilogy failed for itself as there was no one storyline to go through it all just jumbled up pieces of a mess of pictures.
Austin Johnsen nope he’s right. I take Latin and a short e in Latin is pronounced as “ay”, and everything is pronounced exactly as it looks, eg unless two vowels are a diphthong (such as “ae” which is pronounced like the English “ee”), they are both pronounced in turn. So yes it is pronounced as “day-us ex mahkina” (Ch is always pronounced as a k sound) and translates literally as “the god from the machine”. Other Latin fun facts: v is pronounced as “w”, so veni vidi vici was actually spoken by the romans as “weni widi wici”; e pluribus unum, as seen on US currency, literally means “from many, one”; et cetera literally means “and there is another” and the ampersand (&) character was initially developed as a ligature of the letters in “et”, which is Latin for “and”. Just some stuff off the top of my head; I was doing my Latin homework while I listened this video lol. You learn something new every day! :)
Simply can't be fixed, period. There is no going back on this, no redos or take-backsies. No "Veil of the Force" that can erase the effects. They had their shot and they blew it, and whether we decide to give them another one, there is no fixing this. But, as you've suggested, there might at least be hope for better once someone else is at the helm.
The “problem” with the sequels is much larger and simpler than two conflicting writing styles. Succinctly- - you cannot reboot a saga by doing the same story and bringing back the Empire. It negates the entire six movies and character arcs that come before. (Unless you make it part of the meta narrative that the force is repeating this cycle for a reason and Luke needs Rey to break the cycle with Anakins help). - minor point- the reason Johnson killed Snoke and made Rey nobody and had all those lines about the past was because he thought repeating A New Hope was DUMB. He thought Snoke as being an emperor copy cat was DUMB etc. so instead of lining things up to repeat the previous films, he killed characters and made them do stuff they had not been set up for. Now FINN- that’s a character he didn’t know what to do with.
The outline was so pencil-thin it was almost asking the next director to forget about most of it. Disney should have commissioned a group of knowledagble and talented writers to make a 3 story arch which linked into what came before without repeating it. A tall order? Sure The way to go? Surely
Here's the thing. Most artists will say: "Yeah, I love pissing people off with my art. If they think it's bad, and they tell me how bad they thought it was, I just smile and laugh. They just hate it because they don't understand it." But, that only works in the small-scale independent stage when, at most, you'll have a few hundred mean comments mixed in with the supportive words that all independent artists get. Most people who start off with that mindset can't actually handle making a big mistake and attracting a major controversy. Like, the thing with The Last Jedi is that it felt like no one liked it. It fractured the fanbase, and it pissed off the people who hired Rian in the first place, as well as the cast. That has to be rough, and it's clear that despite the brave face Rian puts on, he can't handle actually having so much hate directed at him. I think that's why he made Knives Out. He wanted to make the movie that everyone loved to offset the hate he got for The Last Jedi. But, like, that movie was successful, but it didn't exactly set the world on fire. All he really did with it was put himself back in the public eye again, when he kinda needed to disappear for a bit until the heat died down.
Word. I would go so far as to say that an artist merely effectively expresses something important to themselves, regardless of what others think. If it's good, it will expand and enrich others' worlds. You don't have to be controversial to make art. In fact, I think that's the cheapest way to make an impact. That doesn't mean it can't be good, but if you're making art merely for shock value or to offend people, your work is juvenile, at best.
@@SRWhitting I think that, in those cases, the artists generally have enough self-awareness to anticipate that people will dislike their work. You don't get to spend five minutes drawing a red smiling face, then ask for $250000 for it, without knowing what you're doing. You don't participate in a Deathmatch Wrestling match without knowing you'll get hurt.
I graduated from my film course two years ago and I remember that in my screenwriting sessions, my tutor would always say that the most important thing to do when writing a story IS to plan the ending first. Then, using the screenwriting formula of the equilibrium, the disequilibrium etc, you plan the points in the story to get to that ending and, sure, go ahead and throw in some twists and turns if they fit. It is a very helpful and tempting way to wrote stories believe it or not and so I certainly understand why Rian decided to do it like that. The problem with it in the case of the sequel trilogy is that you had a writer in the previous film (JJ) who was initially NOT hired to complete the story but just start it; hence why JJ probably wrote TFA the way he did, most likely with no ending in mind for these characters and basically left it to the next filmmakers to puzzlesolve all the mysteries he left. Johnson comes in, a writer who WILL start by planning the ending first then working backwards from there. As a result, TLJ felt more like a second and third act to the overall story because Rian was writing a very different kind of film than JJ was and when you've got a studio that says to the first guy, "do it this way" then you say to the next one "fuck it. Just do what you want", that's a very bad storytelling formula, I think. Now, it's entirely possible that Colin would've come in and would've been able to puzzlesolve Rians story and work around it but instead, Disney/Lucas film decided to bring back JJ, who remember, didn't plan the END of the story, only the START. As a result, he probably didn't know what to do and, essentially, had to start from scratch in order to find an ending while also coping with the demands that the studio were making for the last film.
I'd agree, you have to know more or less where you're headed before you start, or you're going to end up lost. But you also have to know where you're starting, especially when you're continuing a story. Not just in terms of sequence of events, but character and tone. Those things can change during your own story, but you still have to connect them to where the old ones left off. Your path can curve, you can bend those things, sometimes quite a lot, but you can't break them. It just doesn't work that way. Johnson's problem was that he was unwilling to compromise his ending, even when he couldn't find a path to it without breaking what came before.
I will always be in the camp that no sequel trilogy should ever have been made. Additional material was best placed in the category of “C-Canon” and in different media, which it was.
JJ Abram's The Force Awakens told an incomplete story that raised a lot of questions but never answered them. That's not how you write a Star Wars movie. George Lucas's SW films told complete stories. He kept the series going by keeping Darth Sidious alive. As long as Darth Sidious was alive, there would always be a new diabolical plot the heroes would have to deal with. Darth Sidious was the character who set the plot into motion. Furthermore, to ensure each movie flowed into the next, nothing of any importance happened between the films. All important events happened in the films. When a new film began, you didn't feel like you missed something. Anything that did happen between the films was explained in the opening crawl. JJ Abram's The Force Awakens, told a part of a story intended to be completed in later films. This put Rian Johnson in the difficult position of having to finish JJ Abram's story before he could start his own. Clearly Rian Johnson decided not to do that. He decided to only address events that happened in The Force Awakens and nothing more. Unanswered plot points were thrown out. Furthermore, you could do an entire trilogy on the events that happened between episodes 6 and 7. The Force Awakens doesn't feel like a sequel to Return of the Jedi. It feels like it's several movies ahead of it. That wasn't the case with George Lucas's movies. The 20 year gap between episodes 3 and 4 didn't see a whole lot of change. The situation at the beginning of episode 4 was pretty much the same as it was at the end of episode 3. So the two films flowed into one another much better. Now Rian Johnson made some mistakes too. He turned Luke into a cynical hermit disgruntled about being a Jedi. That's not how he was at the end of Return of the Jedi. You can't just change a character without showing how it happened. Furthermore, Ryan Johnson turned the members of the resistance into immature brats spending more time fighting each other than fighting the First Order. And of course RJ's biggest mistake was killing off Snoke. Snoke was the character who set the plot into motion. Snoke was the reason the sequel trilogy existed. Snoke created the First Order. Snoke was Kylo Ren's teacher in the ways of the dark side. You kill off Snoke, there is no reason to continue. So in closing, the mess was started by JJ Abrams when he produced an unfinished movie. Rian Johnson could have sucked it up and finished JJ Abram's story before starting his own but decided to take the easy route and throw out JJ Abram's unanswered plot points creating a movie that had no relation to the previous. With regards to The Rise of Skywalker, by that point the series was dead. So the movie was pretty much a joke. Not much more can be said than that.
Well ANH wasn't written as part one of a trilogy. Yet ESB is largely looked upon as the best film of all the Star Wars film. So even if Abrams had no idea what to do after episode 7 was true(as I've pointed out multiple times it was reported by several people attached to the trilogy Abrams had treatments for episodes 8 and 9) that still doesn't justify the incoherent trash that is TLJ. There's a great deal a competent writer could have given the audience for episode 8.
Sometimes I wonder what would’ve happened if Mark just refused to act for Rian . I mean he is Luke Skywalker so it’s not like they’d be able to fire him. Mark knows better than anyone what Luke and Star Wars means to people, so if he saw Rians script as problematic, then he should’ve demanded changes be made.
He sounded so pompous when he mentioned Miller’s Crossing (great movie) Johnson is a competent director. His movies bore me unlike the Cohen Brothers films which are mostly exciting.
The Force Awakens was a lazy, dumbed down, lore breaking reboot, that made absolutely no sense in the overall Saga. It was filled with way too many coincidences, useless characters and dead end stories threads (typical JJ traits). Initial financial success yes (only due to the Star Wars label on the box), but those writing and story decisions were long term franchise destroying....as this sequel trilogy has turned out to be.
You'd think that with owning one of the biggest franchises in the world, you would at least tell your writers to craft an outline for the trilogy and it has to be approved by Lucas himself or at least be reviewed by a 'committee' of hardcore fans to be counted worthy of being called Star Wars.
It started to go bad on the opening scrawl of Episode 7. When I didn't read "The New Jedi Order" I knew this was going to suck. I didn't think this whole mess was going to suck this hard. I actually like the Holiday special, we didn't just hit rock bottom, we dug into the inner core. The Root of all of this, mess of a trilogy, can be summed up in one word, WOKE.
Rian is a good filmmaker but he shouldn’t use popular or established properties or just let him make the whole trilogy so he can make the whole thing coherent.
You hit the nail on the head. Rian loves subverting expectations. While this works well when he is free to do whatever he wants, it doesn't work in a longstanding franchise with established rules and characters, as TLJ clearly demonstrates. Also, you edited but didn't fix the second "hole".
This is a more nuanced take on the sequel trilogy than I’ve come to expect from you, and I appreciate the recognition that Rian Johnson probably wasn’t writing with the sole purpose of subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations, but rather writing to serve a particular theme and message. My main critique of this analysis is that it doesn’t leave room for the possibility that Rian Johnson had a different interpretation of the characters than you. Certainly if you had very clear conceptions of the characters that were very different than the way they were characterized in The Last Jedi, it could seem like Rian Johnson was simply writing the characters doing what he needed them to do to reach a specific ending he wanted, disregarding established characterization. However, I think there are strong arguments to be made that the characters are portrayed consistently between The Force Awakens and the rest of the saga (save perhaps Rise of Skywalker, which very much had the characters do whatever the plot needed them to do regardless of characterization). They are just consistent in different ways than some fans may have expected. Where some saw the character who refused to kill Darth Vader nearly killing his nephew, others saw the guy who nearly killed his father in a fit of rage but ultimately hold himself back (though not before he had done damage that would ultimately prove fatal) briefly consider killing his nephew to stop more future loss of life, but stop himself at the last moment (though not before ruining his nephew’s trust in him). Where some saw the villain obsessed with carrying on Vader’s legacy suddenly turn around and say “let the past die, kill it if you have to,” others saw a villain who was desperately struggling to find his identity, latching onto his grandfather’s legacy, and then having that notion crushed by his mentor, and back-lashing by trying to erase the past, despite still ultimately being obsessed with it. These are all valid readings of these characters, and depending on how you interpreted the rest of the saga, The Last Jedi could seem like a radical departure changing things for the sake of change, or like a perfectly natural continuation that delved more deeply into themes that always existed but had not yet been fully explored.
Trying to fix these films feels a bit like putting lipstick on a corpse. Better to pretend they don't exist and perhaps work on a new sequel trilopgy to Return of the Jedi.
Well, you're doing great so far; I hope everything you do with your storytelling from here is as good as what you've already done. I have high hopes for you and I doubt I'll be disappointed.
Despite the faults of each individual film in the sequel trilogy, what you're hitting on here magnifies all those problems significantly. There is no cohesion to this trilogy. The Last Jedi throws out all the ideas from The Force Awakens, only for The Last Jedi's ideas to be abandoned in Rise of Skywalker.
You are spot on Thor, that taken out out of an existing story, The Last Jedi can be seen as an interesting take on that universe. And perhaps this was a reason why so many critics loved it. There are elements in it, I really like, for example the Luke story. However when its in the middle of a trilogy, there has to be references to the first film in some guise, and that just doesn't happen, which makes what follows, jarring to the extreme. I don't mind that he's a filmmaker that is a love him or hate him kind of director; I'd rather that, than a million Michael Bay's or Quentin Tarantino's, or hell JJ Abrams too. It just seems like there was no thread of a story throughout the whole trilogy, to solidify the characters and story, and Rian tried to change it too much, and for the vast majority of Star Wars fans who love the saga, it broke the illusion of that universe too much for them.
When I watched TLJ in theaters, although I enjoyed it, I realized that it was not made for me with quotes like “let the past die”. Being myself 43 years old and having watched ESB and ROTJ in theaters when they came out I thought “let the past die” was referring to people like me. 😓
Rian:Doesnt want to please everyone, thinks the best movies have people who think they were the worst movies ever. Also Rian when people say his movie was bad:MaNbAbIeS!!!! Jokes aside, you are doing a WAYYYYYYY better job so far. and you're probably right about Rian. He probably started with his whole "Don't meet your heroes" theme that now provides the main(possibly the most idiotic) defense of TLJ.
@@BrennanTheContentWhisperer I was thinking of him doing a whole saga, set in a unexplored time, maybe between the Old Republic and the creation of the rule of 2, right in the middle, before the brotherhood of darkness too but after the end of the old republic
somehow Rían Johnson tricked people into thinking he’s a good writer... I suppose he’s a decent director, crediting his work on things like _Breaking Bad,_ but even his “good” movies like _Looper_ and _Knives Out_ are honestly just pretty dumb, in my opinion... and _The Last Jedi_ was a complete mess.
You always start TLJ argument with: whether you love or hate TLJ.. When the only correct way to address this particular issue is with: whether you hate or really hate TLJ. :-D
That line from Johnson, about wanting to polarize his audience as much as possible, has always seemed fake to me, like a defensive rationalization, possibly. His previous movies, Brick and Looper, I believe, had quite good critical receptions. And a movie maker who deliberately sets out to alienate half of his audience will not "work in this town" for very long! I don't think we need to overthink why the sequels went wrong! JJ's movie making "philosophy" is a cop out of real story-telling - the mystery box "approach" - and Rian Johnson was allowed to be a spiteful, self-indulgent little brat because he was spouting the right political gobbledygook. Like many people have said, there was no over-arching vision for those movies, not even at the very beginning, not even a teeny tiny one!
I still love episode 7. It's a movie full of untapped potential. There's obvious flaws were each character personalities aren't air tight and Abrams probably should have use some scene time to give us a better landscape of the SW universe, but all in all the film was a huge positive for the franchise and a great start to Disney's version of SW.
There were so many great pieces and characters that alone worked in this sequel trilogy but not in this glued-together mess. I do not know who to be more upset with; J.J. Abrams for conceiving a the derivative 'The Force Awakens' or Rian Johnson not following that movie, at least, and telling his story with what happened before. I wish Colin Trevorrow had at least given us his own spin with Episode 9.
There was no plan and the group that should have made sure of this didn't do their job! JJ set things up, Rian messed everything up instead of demonstrating why they selected him and instead of listening to Trevorrow they fired him instead of understanding Trevorrow was right and let him save the trilogy. It sounds like JJ tried but what we got isn't likely his choice for the Rise of Palpatine.
The sequels are a prime example of 'First Draft' work. Your first draft is rarely EVER the one that winds up in the final draft. This entire trilogy needed to be written before hand, and gone through at least five drafts. I am a writer who works backwards. I see the ending, or a pivotal moment, and work to get to that point - and often that ending evolves to fit what I write so things flow naturally. But doing this isn't easy. It's one of the hardest ways to write.
Definitely agree that the contrasting writing styles and not having a plan was a big issue with the sequels, not there only issue by any means but a big one. I think TLJ messed things up a lot with Jake... i mean Luke. Looking forward to the rest of this series and your own version, you are clearly a big fan and understand star wars very well. It'll at least be better than the sequels we got... not that that is saying much lol
While the ending of LOST floundered, applying the flashback style character centric storytelling of LOST Season 1 to the sequels, could've given us an interesting dual look at how we got here 30 years after RotJ, and where we are now in episodes 7 and 8. Abrams, being a creator of LOST, could've done something like that and I think a lot of us liked TFA when it came out because we thought we'd get that or something like it in the next 2 episodes. A smart, clever explanation for all the plot holes and things that didn't add up. When we got TLJ instead, we knew the jig was up. It was a house of cards that had collapsed before our very eyes, leaving a Ruined franchise (pun intended) in its wake.
Bob Iger bought George Lucas' story treatments for the Sequel Trilogy. They should have stuck to this outline, not thrown it out. Lawrence Kasdan should have been given three years to adapt it into a screenplay as he writes good dialogue. However, Iger was in too much of a rush to get started and didn't allow sufficient time for the trilogy to incubate. Lucas' films were three years apart in all cases, but Iger wanted the whole thing done by 2019 to coincide with the launch of Disney+ and the _Star Wars Galaxies_ theme park extensions. This only makes sense if the _Star Wars_ sequel trilogy is of good quality and can boost the rejuventated _Star Wars_ brand. Because Iger rushed it out the quality suffered and the brand has been devalued, as evidenced by poor theme park attendance and the failure to sell merchandise. The trilogy should have released on 2016, 2019, 2022 with spin-off films and television series occuring after the trilogy to fill in some prequel material, such as _Leia: A Star Wars Story_ starring Millie Bobby Brown. I've compared Kathleen Kennedy's output to Kevin Fiege and she had a higher workload, so I don't blame her for some lack of production oversight. I doubt that _Solo: A Star Wars Story_ (which, frankly is a movie I wouldn't have made, as the mystery surrounding the character is fine) would have had production problems and needed a change of director if it had been the only _Star Wars_ movie Lucasfilm had to focus on at the time. The glut of _Star Wars_ content has made it no longer feel special. These event movies need to be somewhat rare and placing a spin-off on alternate years so an annual _Star Wars_ film is provided is relentlessly exploitative and diminishes their impact. If _The Rise of Skywalker_ hadn't left me with a headache it would have left me feeling numb. It is possible to have too much _Star Wars._ So long as the _Star Wars_ sequel trilogy has a single screenwriter it doesn't matter if it has multiple directors. Rian Johnson couldn't have undermined the tension in _The Last Jedi_ with lame humor and sight gags if he had to work with Lawrence Kasdan's screenplay. Same goes for Phil Lord and Chris Miller, who Kathleen Kennedy should never have allowed to improvise away from Kasdan's script for _Solo: A Star Wars Story_ and incur unbudgeted overtime in the process. Have them work on a _LEGO Star Wars_ musical parody, and their talents would have matched the tone of the material. Here it could be argued that Kennedy picked the wrong people to helm that spin-off, but I don't think Johnson was wrong for _Episode VIII,_ the truth is Johnson was wrong for _The Last Jedi,_ a title he wrote rather than whatever Kasdan would have come up with. _The Last Jedi_ sounds like an appropriate title for _Episode IX_ although my plans for the franchise had it ending with _Star Wars: Episode XII - The Final Sith_ where it would be revealed that Kylo was possessed by the evil spirit of Darth Plagueis the Wise, who had formerly possessed the hosts, Snoke and Palpatine. This would help unify the second sequel trilogy to the prequels and originals. I don't understand why Iger was in such a hurry to be done with telling the Skywalker Saga, Rey should have been the daughter that Luke never knew he had, and Keri Russell should have played Luke's wife, and Rey's mother, Mara Jade. I am convinced it could have been good. Lucas should have sold it to another studio. Perhaps, Universal, then we wouldn't have got _The Mummy._
It seems that, as others have written, there was no overall plan in place. The OT had a general idea once it was clear that the first movie would lead to a trilogy. It wasn't set in stone; there was room for adjustments from directors, actors & screenwriters. But the general idea was there and there were guidelines. The PT was somewhat stricter, in that George Lucas directed & wrote all three movies and he knew where it would end up. But the ST was, it seemed, built around the idea of three writer/directors handed a general idea and given carte blanche on how to proceed, with nobody stopping them and saying, "That doesn't fit; change it." As a result, plans for the third film were scrapped and it had to be rapidly reconstructed as a film to unify two very different approaches. I'm not saying they need to have absolutely everything mapped out and strictly enforced (like JMS did with "Babylon 5"), but a firmer guiding hand with veto authority would've been better overall.
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Can this mess be fixed?
Not by a Jedi........
now i understand what palpatin meant when he said that some sith powers may seem unnatural
"lagends tell of darth plguse the wise, he found a way to fix disney star wars and make it imortal again"
"can i learn of this way"
"hell no, disney would kill you, they already control the galaxy, you shouldnt make a residtens"
"then i will make a ribelion"
A sith can't save it either, the brand has hit a downward spiral and it seems like they can't recover from this spiral!
Only a Black Lesbian , Feminist Trans can fix it... NOT!!!!
Dave F,( talking on the sly with George) can run damage control, but note that he wants no part of anything after ROTJ; smart guy!! 😁
Darth Revan movie? 😏
Having someone whose literal philosophy is to make half his audience hate his movie would hardly ever work in an established fiction.
People are making WAY too much out of a comment Rian made fifteen years ago about his first film and assuming he wanted half the fanbase to hate The Last Jedi. He wants to make films that no one feels lukewarm about, because basically no great film has achieved the reaction of everyone feeling basically okay about it. Great films have always been polarizing, not because the director tried to piss people off, but because when you venture into anything like new territory, polarizing audiences is inevitable. I also think Last Jedi is the worst Star Wars film, but I'm not going to pretend not to understand what he meant.
Not all great films are polarizing. The original Star Wars wasn't, there are lists of great movies that aren't. Not everybody is going to like something but that is way different from being polarizing. If 5% of people don't like something that's not the same as 50% not liking something.
@@Corn_Pone_Flicks what's polarizing about the Godfather, Shawshank Redemption or the original Star Wars?
I don't hate that idea in theory, but that's not a philosophy you bring to an established franchise. Not to Star Wars. If he wants to do that with his own completely original movie then fine. More power to him. I'm fine with that. But that's not going to work with Star Wars.
The only time that worked was with "The Prisoner", since Patrick McGoohan wanted people to think about the philosophical concepts about freedom and society. But that fits with the surrealism of "The Prisoner", and not really with the space fantasy setting of "Star Wars".
Rian Johnson: I wanna make a controversial movie
Also Rian Johnson when someone doesn't like his movie: you're a manbaby
Rian Johnson is the manbaby here 🤦🏽
It’s so true. The more I hear of Johnson, the more I think he’s just kind of a dick
Totally, that's why I don't like him, not because his awful movie and ideas, but because he thinks of himself as this controversial but genius writer/director, but when face with criticism he will get salty.
The guy is a troll. He literally loves trolling people so he can "drink their tears" though in reality it is a self defense mechanism for deflecting and not dealing with critical comments and guarding self against admiting you suck.
Got hiimmm 🤣
Thor: I believe there is still good in the sequels!
Fans: They are more machine than movies
@ Yeah, machines.
Twisted and evil...
@ Yeah, like he said, machines.
Sequel trilogy was a "duece ex machina" alright 💩
Best comment right here.
Jeremy uses deuce ex machina wrong [ding]
More like douche ex machina
@@bamma4 I see it more as a Freudian Slip.
Yeah, deus is not pronounced like Zeus, since
deus is a latin word and
Zeus is an (ancient) Greek name.
JJ and Rian Johnson’s movies are the big screen version of the “NO U” argument.
LMAO 😂😂😂
"My PP is bigger"
"no mine"
Ruin Johnson and jajar Abrams were mistaken about a great many things. And now they have paid the price for their lack of vision.
No they did not we paid the price for their lack of vision
Comparing jj to jar jar is an insult to jar jar
They got a good amount of money and praise for their failure. The fans are the ones who had to pay for their narcissism and incompetence.
They chose not to complete the story crafting, They chose the quick and easy path, and became agents of evil.
@@kimemia_maina I would have tried to continue this but I can't think of any quotes
Why doesn’t anyone ever bring up how Disney started this trilogy hating on the prequels. They threw out George’s sequels. Then they made a bunch of subtle jabs about how they were not gonna use green screens or make the lightsaber fights look to “staged” . Then they all but snubbed them as far as references go in tfa. In an ironic twist of fate the prequels are loved and the sequels are hated
Ironic, the sequels could save the prequels for being hated, but not themself
@@kaitosevski3881 Haha. Well done.
Prequels still suck. There is a cohesive story there but the execution of the story is terrible. There was an overuse of CGI and wooden acting and dialogue.
The sequels do everything right from a movie making standpoint such as writing and the look and feel of the films, but failed at the most important part, they didn't have a complete story arc.
RockKobe29 I see your point but I don’t really think the dialogue was any more horrible then anything else from the early 2000s. I think the fights were great I think the cgi might have been over done but it mostly holds up even by today’s standards and I think the story is for the most part seamless and well thought out. I think Hayden plays a convincing darth Vader. He follows the same vocal patterns of James earl Jones. He just doesn’t have the awesome voice. The sequels had horrible dialogue as well. Such as “we don’t win by fighting what we hate. But saving what we love.” That’s equally as bad as I hate sand haha
@@Hikaru3899 the general consensus was dialogue and delivery was terrible. Maul fight was awesome. Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight was great, a little long. The overall look was too clean, no matter which planet. Hayden sounded whiney. The sand line is terrible and the Rose line is just as bad.
The actual written stuff being bad along with the delivery of most lines. Anakin, Padme, Young Ani, ...everything is wooden and stiff and at times boring.
The story was simple, and everyone knew what it was from Epi 1 to 3. Awesome set pieces like Maul fight, Duel on Mustafar, the Pod Race are awesome, but everything in between is just bland. Most of the interesting story developments like the actual Clone War, Anakin and Obi-Wan adventures, character development, takes place off screen. You have to read novels, watch the Clone Wars show to actually get a feel for what's going on.
In the movies, Anakin is an annoying kid that grows into an, arrogant but whiney adult, that falls to the dark side. General Grievous is pathetic and a joke in Epi 3.
For me and a lot of fans the prequels were bad, they were bad when they were released, and they are bad now.
The flaws and shortcomings of the sequels don't suddenly make them any better.
As people had said, the ST is a family type of problem. JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson is those ex fighting for the child while the ST which had much promise is that child.
And the child winds up getting mentallly f***ed up as a result.
It’s about family, and that’s what makes it so great :)
I wonder if one of the two had the whole trilogy to do which would have been better
@RZR MarzBarz An OT remake posing as a sequel would have been better than The Last Jedi times three.
At least the OT remake wouldn't have busted canon for the sake of it like Last Jedi did every chance it got.
My vote goes to Colin Trevorrow, because from what we know about Duel of the Fates he at least had some idea how to handle a longstanding franchise without either just remaking part of it with new characters or treating it like it's a brand new franchise without longstanding rules and preestablished characters.
JJ messed up ST with TFA, he wrote them into corner before Johnson, he got this annoying obsession with OT (Han acting like 30y/o), same conflict rebellion vs empire (but without logic or world building), spectacle over story and characters, Rey as a mary sue (where can you go with protagonist like that), hate for PT, TFA doesn't have a resolution or ending, everything was left for the second movie (dumb mystery boxes), JJ (and Lucas) exiled Luke not Johnson, Johnson couldn't kill Snoke if he wanted, he must have been told to do that, and let's not forget JJ was executive producer on TLJ
These were almost my exact thoughts on the way home from watching TFA
Abrams made a horrible Star Wars movie. Twice. So did rian johnson. Both can be true.
Dont forget dumb comic relief stormtrooper, Finn. He shouldve acted like a tough has seen soldier, like Boyega originally wanted to play him.
@@thorthewolf8801 I didn't include Finn becouse it would made the comment extra long, but exactly, like one moment he has panic attacks because his friend got shot and next he is having fun with poe shooting fellow stormtroopers, making them stolen children was dumb, because they were meant to be expandable and wherever they were shown to be killed for laugh it was tone deaf, and how they marked him as jedi ugh
I totally agree, TFA set the ball rolling for an empty shell of a trilogy, the laziness just to rename the Empire and bring them back super powerful with endless resources and no explanation is unforgivable in my opinion as a Star Wars fan, he undermined the previous 6 films before TLJ was even created.
Throughout my own writing I was slowly learning that you can't just have plot twists for the sake of having plot twists. Last Jedi then went and confirmed that for me so hard that I'll never forget it.
Can you give an example?
@davisboyer I wouldn't call them plot twists per se, but rather contradictory or unexplained plot points. Sure, Luke says that "the force is whstever the fuck Rian Johnson wants it to be" but having Leia flying through space and Luke suddenly being able to make visual manifestations of himself appearing on other extremes of the galaxy requires at least some way of foreshadowing, if not, what stops Luke from using the force to just blow up the whole First Order's ships and end the war on a conviniant and anticlimactic way?
Second, several themes on the film don't make any god damn sense. At the start Rose's sister dies defending the resistance which makes her feel a duty to the cause that her sister died fighting for, so he stops Fin from deserting the resistance and oblies him to keep fighting for the casue, then, when the First Order is attacking the last remains of the resistance and are about to annihilate the whole resistance, Fin tries to crash his ship on the main weapon to save everybody only for Rose to stupidly stopping him on a manoeuvre that: first, should have killed both of them and second, would've in fact killing the whole resistance had Luke not shown up at the last minute, something she didn't know would happen.
Johnsons whole catalog is stand alone deconstructive films. He has never shown himself to be a collaborator. I'm honestly not sure who thought dropping him in the middle of a series at the most important part was the smart play to make in the first place or why they did.
Nah, that's just pseudo intellectual subversion, deconstructions are actually cool, the prequels were a deconstruction of the hero's journey where it all goes to shit
@@darthtroller the prequels were a straight up classical Fallen Hero/tragic arc
It's not a subversion at all, it's the opposite kind of arc, and has been well-established since ancient Greek storytelling (Achilles is a perfect example)
@@347Jimmy Yeah, that doesn't contradict what I said, this deconstruction method, while ancient is still deconstruction, subversion on the other hand is completely different and it's a terrible writing tool most of the time
Kennedy knew precisely what she was doing in hiring these two clowns.
@@darthtroller I'm not sure why you think that it's deconstructive
It's practically an opposite arc, that has nothing to do with deconstruction
By the same token you could claim that the Hero's Journey is a deconstruction of the Fallen Hero
It isn't, they're two different arcs
Rian Johnson destroyed that trilogy beyond repair. I’ll never forget leaving the theatre and wanting so badly to like that movie and feeling so disappointed in what I saw. I had no expectations. I just thought it would be obvious that Luke would want to help his sister and then train Rey and have a really great master apprentice kind of vibe similar to yoda and Luke in Empire. Luke being a cranky old man who doesn’t want to help was just wrong as far as who he is as a character. Rian doesn’t understand Star Wars at its core or he just wanted to change it. Either way it’s a big fat fail that we all now must live with.
The great thing is we don't have too! The old EU will always be there, flaws and all.
We all remember that sinking feeling. I left feeling disgusted, insulted, and depressed. Before TLJ I had never missed a live action theatrical run of any SW movie. Even rereleases. After TLJ, I just can't bring myself to care.
Felt the same way. I never been so upset wit a movie after Watchin the last Jedi 😑😑😑it was such a dissapointment
I feel like JJ did just as much damage too. The First Order/Resistance basically makes the efforts of Luke and friends pointless.
Preach man. I remember leaving the theatre and trying to justify all the poor choices just so that I would like it. And I couldn’t. I felt like there was so many wasted opportunity’s. Where was the true Luke? Where was ghost anakin and obi wan? Where was the knights of ren? I was so bummed
Let's not forget that Johnson has also mentioned that he did not like writing something for a already established universe, and that a series of movies with a start and a end in 3 movies or more was not something that he did not like. He only went for his own story, not caring it seemed for how this story would end. I mean, if he cared, he would at least have taken something from Abrams script for episode 8 as well as writing his own script for episode 9 to give to the next director.
Either they didn't do their homework on the guy or they straight didn't care if he broke the franchise.
Except that even on its own it's a god damn awful fucking movie. Even if you ignore the prestablished lore of the OT and precuels, it doesn't make sense on its own. Purple hair gal says that Poe shouldn't sacrifice himself, proceeds to sacrifice herself; Luke says Jedi should dissapear, teaches Rey the jedi teachings; Rose gets mad a Fin for trying to desert the resistance, proceeds to prevent Fin from saving the rebelion, etc.
This is Darth Bullsith of the Galactic Notification Empire! All wings, report in!
Bullsith, standing by!
Red Five standing by!
Gold leader standing by
What it do GB
Orange Elite 37 Splashing by
This is Grey Leader, standing by.
Red two, standing by!
What up Thor! I just want to give you a shout out👏👏👏👏👏👏I’ve been a big fan of your videos for the last several years and I really do sincerely appreciate the depths of your discussions, your thoughtfulness and the cool insights that you always seem to bring to the overall Star Wars discussion. You’re absolutely awesome, keep up the GREAT WORK! May the force be with you!
JJ Abrams had more power and influence over the sequel trilogy then Ryan Johnson. He was executive producer of the last jedi for crying out loud. If he was unhappy with what Johnson was doing with the last jedi he could have stopped him but happily went along with it and only distance himself from it after the backlash upon release
They ALL suck. It was about money and preaching their left-wing crap.
He really didn't have much say, at all, about what went on with TLJ. If he did, he would have required Johnson to stick to the plan he began. Remember, Johnson was already writing TLJ, while JJ was finishing filming TFA. It was Johnson who requested that JJ change the ending of TFA ( where Luke Skywalker was very much Jedi Master Supreme, and connected to The Force), because Johnson wished to present Luke Skywalker as broken, suicidal, and intentionally cut-off from The Force. Obviously, Rian Johnson and Kathy Kennedy were never very concerned with HOW The ST would be logical and cohesive overall...just telling the story the way they wanted, infusing it with the concepts they deemed important to their collective vision. That's why an insanely high amount of Star Wars Fans can tell that Favreau and Filoni's The Mandalorian is an entirely different animal from The ST.
@@anthonyyoutubefan7567 No. JJ Abrams absolutely had no plan behind his nostalgia ripoff clusterf*ck & you're simply making assumptions on his behalf. He was executive producer & was well aware of what Rian Johnson was writing the entire time & was perfectly fine with it.
@@rickyandreou It's already been all but confirmed JJ had treatments for both episodes 8 and 9. If you didn't like TFA that's cool but saying Abrams didn't have a plan is just appears to be factually wrong and even if that was the case doesn't justify the mess that is TLJ.
@@thaThRONe You're entitled to believe in whatever "all but confirmed" internet rumors you want to but they're still just that. The idea of Abrams having some conveniently secret over arching plan laid out for the trilogy(& also inexplicably powerless to stop Johnson from altering it) , despite having an infamous track record of the exact opposite, to be utterly laughable. If you like TFA, that's fine but if you didn't like TLJ or TROS you can thank TFA/Abrams apologism for contributing to their existence.
6:33 "I am altering the course. Pray I don't alter it any further"
-Darth Rian
Personally, I think the one that dropped the ball was JJ Abrams with TFA.
The movie never built something new, it was just a movie to please those nostalgic OT people who hated Prequel George Lucas. And that was a huge mistake. This trilogy feel so empty and doesn't make any sense in the Star Wars timeline.
I have the same unpopular opinion. If anything, Johnson did the better movie. It's a shame Trevorrow's story was rejected.
Two points. 1. Deus is pronounced day-us, not duece. That means something very different.
2. I am tired of people saying TLJ's story is fine as a self-contained story. If that was actually true, there would not be so many plot holes in it. For example, in the Canto Bight sequence, Finn and Rose are looking for the one person outside of the First Order who can hack the sensor that tracked the Resistance through hyperspace, but they get arrested for illegal parking before they can say a word to him. At that I nearly shouted in the theater "Let a plot point happen! Stop setting things up just so you can not deliver them". Then what happens? Finn and Rose find a second person outside the First Order who can hack the sensor who just happens to be in the same jail cell. After it was established there is only one person who can help, it turns out there are two after the search for the first person was turned into a joke. If that doesn't scream plothole made for the sake of comedy followed by plothole for the sake of being able to continue the plot, then what does scream plothole for people?
It was established that Maz Kanata (the person they called for advice) knew of one person that could and likely would help. Never was it said or implied he was the only one.
@@TrotmanOwl Maz told them there was only one person who could hope to crack it.
The other probably knew Finn and Rose were resistance fighters, and planned to get a reward for betraying them all along.
AntarcticMagpie yes but what I’m saying is that’s according to Maz. It’s speculation to say he’s the literal only one in the universe who COULD crack it. Hell, someone had to build it. There’s another person who’d know how to crack it right there.
@@TrotmanOwl Good point.
AntarcticMagpie wait, did we just have a polite exchange about some Star Wars thing we didn’t agree on? Put this one in the history books boys because it most likely won’t happen again.
Wow he literally made it to where half the fans would hate it on purpose lol.
No, he didn't. Jesus. That clip was from over a decade ago and was about his first movie.
@@Corn_Pone_Flicks OK so he unintentionally made half the fan base hate it. That's worse. Now he is just a dumbass who cost Disney millions to billions in lost fan revinue and nobody in Kennedyfilm was smart enough to stop him
@@Corn_Pone_Flicks I think he just said what would make him seem, I dunno, deep? I don't think he ever really believed that. Sort of like how, when he was promoting The Last Jedi, he had a lot of crowd pleasing lines like: "No fanservice, because you guys hate that, we're telling an original story and going in wild and crazy directions! Subverting expectations! Woo!"
But, like, Kubrick could get away with saying those lines because his movies were really good, and people liked his movies. So, like, him saying: "People don't like 2001: A Space Odyssey because they think it's boring, but I don't care because it's the movie I wanted to make," results in a crowd of people praising the movie because they see it as an act of defiance. They love the movie because they're smart enough to understand it, not like those dimwits who hate it.
Rian Johnson just isn't good enough to justify saying those things. So, when he says: "I want half of the audience to hate my film," and it isn't very good, or worse, is littered with poor storytelling decisions and technical flaws, he just comes across as a bit of an idiot, not the intelligent auteur he thinks he is.
I disagree with JJ not having an idea of where it was going. I felt like episode 7 was very clear in where he thought each character should end up: Kylo would come good (kills his dad), Rey was related to Luke (linked to light saber), Luke was coming back to fight alongside Leia (why else would you use the biggest hero in the galaxy for one scene on an island if you knew the next dude was gonna kill him off while working from home), Leia was the next to go (episode 8 would have been her downfall as Kylos next target to weaken/anger Luke) and Snoke wasnt going to be a clone puppet of a dead sith lord (pretty sure there was an explanation that he was around before and during the empire in a real way when ep 7 came out.) They missed so much so Disney could give us great films, but zero story that any fan cared about.
The other big issue with Johnson is that he's explicitly admitted that he doesn't do world-building. But world building is part and parcel of the definition of Star Wars. That was the job. He took the money, but didn't do what he was hired for.
Exactly. This was a sequel to a previous film...yet it acted almost as if it were a stand-alone movie....an absolute oxymoron. I guarantee: Hollywood has and will continue to use this cluster#uck of a movie as the example of what NOT TO DO with film-making...especially when that film is a part of a lengthy, long-standing franchise. Honestly, I wonder what someone like Kevin Feige thinks of Johnson's handling of George Lucas' universe? We may find out sooner than later.
That's not Johnson's fault. It's the fault of the person who hired him, knowing that Johnson doesn't do worldbuilding and that the world is the central aspect of what makes Star Wars Star Wars.
@@liljenborg2517 Well, the person that propably had a big say in his hiring doesn't actually care about Star Wars, but only about agenda and money. And it was rather obvious to see that thats the case now, wasn't it.
I am still astonished Disney didn't just fire her after those three movies, its just one big disaster
@@Rakshiir Yes, well, on the one hand, Disney (as a whole) was pretty much behind her agenda, too. On the other hand, if they fired her, they'd get all sorts of flack over the sexism of firing the most powerful woman in Hollywood (right when the whole Me Too thing was a big deal). She had them coming and going, so to speak. That made it easier, all around, to try and shame the fans into liking the movies, or at least faking it to escape the "toxic man-baby" label. This only made the fans more vocally angry. Which, of course, only made everything an even bigger disaster.
@@Rakshiir Firing her could also cause further problems, as she very much has "her people" installed in Lucasfilm who could make things very messy if they felt she was pushed out unfairly. Disney needs to have an indisputable point of failure to counteract that factional loyalty.
Great video. I'm gonna be "that guy." Future reference, it's pronounced "Day-oos" ex machina. I've been saying this for a while, and you said it great as well. RJ isn't necessarily bad, he just works best in his own sandbox, and doesn't care to be beholden to previous story constraints, which is the exact opposite of what you want in an ongoing series and universe.
I disagree on Abrams: He decided what SET-PIECES he wanted to copy, and forced the characters to get the story to each, regardless of actual character or how they should behave.
Calling Abrams the King of the Mystery box approach goes a little too far in my opinion. He’s more the court jester of the Mystery box approach, as in he sets up these mysteries all the time, but when it is time to deliver on them he usually falls flat.
His mystery box idea isn’t even his. It’s a well established element of writing called Chekhov’s guns, only in JJs case, he doesn’t provide any payoffs.
He's not a jester, jesters at least make the kings court laugh and get the point across unlike jj
Typhonus I didn’t say he’s a talented jester ;)
@@smintili touchè lol
He is to extreme, he also seems to give hopeless undertones to some of his projects. A terrible style for a Star Wars film!
Hey Thor I hope this comment is actually close enough to the beginning for you to read, love your channel and thank you for all you do, my beliefs are in line with yours about star wars, so please keep it up!!!!!
Thanks, I very much appreciate the support and people letting me know they enjoy what I'm doing here.
Thor Skywalker hey Thor first wanna day I’m a huge fan and I agree with op; second I was doing my Latin homework while I listened to the video and “deus” is actually pronounced “day-oos”; it’s not the same as Greek like Zeus :)
Hope you find that interesting. Huge fan. Keep up the good work!
I love your style of being fairly critical without necessarily being too harsh; you aren’t just trying to shred apart Ryan’s reputation (as enjoyable as that might be) and you’re open to more than just the dominant side of things; I really appreciate that:)
It’s never made sense to me that Kylo would want to “finish what his grandfather started.” How does the son of Han and Leia and the nephew of Luke, idolize Vader? Did noone tell him about Anakins redemption?
Well maybe that was an intriguing task set on the Force Awakens to fill in the gap and construct a character arc, but nah, let's make Luke drink alien milk and trying to kill his nephew like a fucking morron.
Just to clarify, I didn't like The Force Awakens, but it was made in a way that allowed the sequels to construct a narrative with multiple, if shallow, characters. An Idea that Johnson completely dismissed in favour of a self indulgent ego driven that isn't able to tell a comprehensive narrative on its own, let alone as a sequel to a 9 part saga.
The sequels DO NOT EXIST!
I agree, lol
They exist, but they're just bad fanfiction lol
To me, thats also true. Not in my canon. Just because they destroy to much of the movies that I love. They destroy not only Luke, but also the whole Anakin arc in a way, since his turn to the light and save the galaxy just is thrown into the dumpster by the fact that Palpatine survived in a way.
@@Rakshiir everything really became a joke... Anakins redemption, Luke Skywalker, Palpatine, the Force, Jedi, even the Skywalker name means nothing anymore ;-;
@@VibingMeike I would't say that they are bad fanfiction because that implies that they are written by fans and people with so little knowledge and understanding of the whole galaxy their franchise is placed in can hardly be seen as fans
U make literally everything better 💜😌✌
Hence why we love him
There were two really great ways the last trilogy could have gone but didn't. 1) Snoke was Darth Plagueis, having fooled Palpatine that he'd been 'killed in his sleep.' And, he would have been the creator of Anakin, grandpa of all Skywalkers. 2) Palpatine returning (in IX) reveals he's always been Plagueis, taking his former apprentice's appearance when he tried to kill him in his sleep and killing him in return. Again, grandpa to all Skywalkers.
now i understand what palpatin meant when he said that some sith powers may seem unnatural
"lagends tell of darth plguse the wise, he found a way to fix disney star wars and make it imortal again"
"can i learn of this way"
"hell no, disney would kill you, they already control the galaxy, you shouldnt make a residtens"
"then i will make a ribelion"
fixing the st is an unnatural power
“Can this mess be fixed?”
Of course it can’t.
Nothing short of a complete rewrite of course.
It's actually really selfish of Johnson to do what he did with TLJ. He could have made a standalone star wars movie if he wanted a self contained story and it might have been good but you can't do something like that when it's the 8th movie in a 9 movie series.
Deus is two syllables: "DAY-oos."
Thank you! That was driving me nuts.
Can we just be honest with ourselves here? JJ screwed it up from the jump and Rian took it a step further and then JJ added to the fuckery that he started and Rian played off of. Neither of these guys know shit about Star Wars and it’s glaring in each of the sequels.
Big companies need to choose who to take control over creative properties better
The buck stops with Kathleen Kennedy. All of her decisions destroyed Star Wars Sequels. What a waste.
She viewed Star Wars simply as a means to an end: a platform to elevate women at the expense of denigrating men, both hero and villain.
In addition, her INNEPTITUDE has been on full display, approving storylines that went totally against SW Canon, and her lack of any COHESIVE long-term plan for this billion dollar franchise.
She's the wrong woman for the job and the sooner she's gone the better.
I would agree if she didn't ruin Lea same as other characters from the old trilogy. She wanted to make new characters better than old ones, but the way she did it, she made caricatures instead of characters.
Personally, I think they need to start over. The entire sequel trilogy is such a mess that it doesn’t make any sense. Start fresh but this time have a dang plan. Learn from the mistakes that they’ve made. God knows they made plenty. Additionally, keep the modern political garbage and agendas out. That just made the movies even worse
The only way to fix it is to throw it away and replace it like an old milk jug
I think in the end, both JJ and Rian actually hurt their own careers with those movies. Rian propably more than JJ, since I think the first movie was still okay... not great, but okay and had some good ideas for the next movie(s). And I think he actually tried to fix the issues the second movie caused, but in my opinion, that just was a task that was impossible.
But Rian going basically to war with the fandom, trying to push his own stupid ideas in just to spite JJ and the fans is beyond me. In the end, you should be glad you got to work on such a grand universe, on such a beloved franchise, and maybe it's a good idea to do something the fans will love. Because if such a big audience loves your movie, they might watch other projects, which helps your career. But if you spite them, they will propably be VERY careful even with non SW movies you made. I for sure am one such person.
Of course, everyone can have a bad project, and just fail even though he tried his best. But if you hear the backlash, to double down on your shit just to spite them even more is in my opinion a stupid move. It would have been better if you actually have an open mind to the critisism of long time fans.
But thats not what creators these days do... rather just go ahead and call them all toxic, go to the media and let them call them all sorts of things, before you admit some ideas might not have been that great. Because for sure, if 10 media sites and 1 director says that all the million and million fans who are disappointed and or angry are just toxic and don't get the movie, they will all just fall in line, right? Thats how humans react to being attacked...
I literally have yet to come across anyone that liked this trilogy.
So how is the fandom split??????
Today is your lucky day fam, you just met one
I like TFA.
Their is people who like the sequels, some who will try defend in any way they can. Theirs is fans of sequels.
Their not in majority as far as I've seen, you see can that with hasbro shifting focuses on prequels/ clone wars and ot, rebels seeing as those makes way more money than sequels products. Disney is making way more shows around prequel, ot and after the return of jedi.
Nothing really anything deeply tied to the sequels.
I have, I'm sorry to say. I don't want to pull a "No True Star Wars Fan" logical fallacy, because some of the folks I've met who do like it enough to have merchandise, or even feature it in their "man cave" collections.
That said, though I can't speak for everyone, and I'm sure they do exist, none of these people who liked the ST were particularly versed in Star Wars lore or emotionally invested in it. When discussing the movies and the franchise as a whole, by their own admission, they didn't know much beyond what they had seen in the movies. Each one was more an enthusiast of all things "nerdy," with their passion, if any, clearly devoted to something else, like Star Trek or Dr. Who. I'm like that with Star Trek; I've seen most of the movies, I've watched some of TNG, and I enjoy what I have consumed, some of it thoroughly. But the only piece of that franchise I am truly passionate about is The Wrath of Khan, which is one of my all-time favorite movies and is, I believe, truly Great. I've watched it countless times, quote or reference it regularly, and am occasionally even moved to tears when simply reflecting on its ending scenes. But while I do consider myself a fan of that film, I wouldn't call myself a "Star Trek fan," or Trekkie.
The word "fan" is shortened from "fanatic." And though most now use it simply to denote someone who enjoys a thing, I feel it necessitates a devotion beyond casual enjoyment, or even moderate enthusiasm. I won't tell people they aren't--or can't be--Star Wars fans, and I am certain my depth of knowledge of the galaxy is piddling compared to some.
I'm just saying that among the people I've met and discussed Star Wars with, there's a definite correlation between casualness of investment and enjoyment of the sequels.
Then again, you've had several people respond to your comment saying they liked the ST, who also care enough about Star Wars to be watching RUclips videos about it. So there goes my whole case, out the window.
I love Star Wars and I really like the Sequel Trilogy.
Sequel Trilogy:The very definition of how to NOT make a trilogy!
When is the trailer for your episode 7 coming out?
Snoke: Your helmet is stupid.
Kylo: Yeah well... your... throne... is stupid!
After Kylo leaves, Snoke stares at his throne before proceeding to smash it.
RJ: "And that was a scene in the first draft we never got around to filming..."
It is one thing to make a movie with a message within it, but it a whole other thing when you make a movie a part of a greater storyline. That is why the entire sequel trilogy failed for itself as there was no one storyline to go through it all just jumbled up pieces of a mess of pictures.
An a whole other thing to not communicate anything with your shitty movie.
Sounds like you’re pronouncing it as Duce Ex Machina to me.
DAY-oos. Two syllables.
Joel Pierce I thought it was pronounced deus.
Austin Johnsen nope he’s right. I take Latin and a short e in Latin is pronounced as “ay”, and everything is pronounced exactly as it looks, eg unless two vowels are a diphthong (such as “ae” which is pronounced like the English “ee”), they are both pronounced in turn. So yes it is pronounced as “day-us ex mahkina” (Ch is always pronounced as a k sound) and translates literally as “the god from the machine”.
Other Latin fun facts: v is pronounced as “w”, so veni vidi vici was actually spoken by the romans as “weni widi wici”; e pluribus unum, as seen on US currency, literally means “from many, one”; et cetera literally means “and there is another” and the ampersand (&) character was initially developed as a ligature of the letters in “et”, which is Latin for “and”. Just some stuff off the top of my head; I was doing my Latin homework while I listened this video lol.
You learn something new every day! :)
Will Mungas I guess we do.
Honestly, I don’t think Rian Johnson really wanted to make a divisive movie (who would?), he’s just using that as an excuse after the fact.
Love or hate... How about being indifferent? What did we need after return of the jedi? It wrapped Up the story in a satisfying way.
Can't be fixed with Kathleen and her cult around. They need to go.
Simply can't be fixed, period. There is no going back on this, no redos or take-backsies. No "Veil of the Force" that can erase the effects. They had their shot and they blew it, and whether we decide to give them another one, there is no fixing this. But, as you've suggested, there might at least be hope for better once someone else is at the helm.
The “problem” with the sequels is much larger and simpler than two conflicting writing styles. Succinctly-
- you cannot reboot a saga by doing the same story and bringing back the Empire. It negates the entire six movies and character arcs that come before. (Unless you make it part of the meta narrative that the force is repeating this cycle for a reason and Luke needs Rey to break the cycle with Anakins help).
- minor point- the reason Johnson killed Snoke and made Rey nobody and had all those lines about the past was because he thought repeating A New Hope was DUMB. He thought Snoke as being an emperor copy cat was DUMB etc. so instead of lining things up to repeat the previous films, he killed characters and made them do stuff they had not been set up for.
Now FINN- that’s a character he didn’t know what to do with.
George RR Martin: gives you what you want but in an unexpected way. Rian: gives you what you don't want in an unexpected way.
Dude a villain said let the past die, then it was directly contradicted in the film by the hero, it ment nothing, let it go!
@7:15 - That isn't just a hypothesis, Rian himself confirmed that was his process in writing the bulk of Ep.8.
4 billion dollars later for the whole kit and caboodle, half the audience hating it?....wishful thinking, money talks
The outline was so pencil-thin it was almost asking the next director to forget about most of it.
Disney should have commissioned a group of knowledagble and talented writers to make a 3 story arch which linked into what came before without repeating it.
A tall order? Sure
The way to go? Surely
My expectations were for a coherent story.
Here's the thing. Most artists will say: "Yeah, I love pissing people off with my art. If they think it's bad, and they tell me how bad they thought it was, I just smile and laugh. They just hate it because they don't understand it."
But, that only works in the small-scale independent stage when, at most, you'll have a few hundred mean comments mixed in with the supportive words that all independent artists get. Most people who start off with that mindset can't actually handle making a big mistake and attracting a major controversy.
Like, the thing with The Last Jedi is that it felt like no one liked it. It fractured the fanbase, and it pissed off the people who hired Rian in the first place, as well as the cast. That has to be rough, and it's clear that despite the brave face Rian puts on, he can't handle actually having so much hate directed at him.
I think that's why he made Knives Out. He wanted to make the movie that everyone loved to offset the hate he got for The Last Jedi. But, like, that movie was successful, but it didn't exactly set the world on fire. All he really did with it was put himself back in the public eye again, when he kinda needed to disappear for a bit until the heat died down.
Word. I would go so far as to say that an artist merely effectively expresses something important to themselves, regardless of what others think. If it's good, it will expand and enrich others' worlds. You don't have to be controversial to make art. In fact, I think that's the cheapest way to make an impact. That doesn't mean it can't be good, but if you're making art merely for shock value or to offend people, your work is juvenile, at best.
Pompous artist work on more than a small scale. How else do yoh explain modern art? Or Brutalism?
@@SRWhitting I think that, in those cases, the artists generally have enough self-awareness to anticipate that people will dislike their work. You don't get to spend five minutes drawing a red smiling face, then ask for $250000 for it, without knowing what you're doing. You don't participate in a Deathmatch Wrestling match without knowing you'll get hurt.
“Now wether you love or hate The Last...”
HATE IT!!! No need to finish that statement. Congratulations Rian, you got your wish.
I graduated from my film course two years ago and I remember that in my screenwriting sessions, my tutor would always say that the most important thing to do when writing a story IS to plan the ending first.
Then, using the screenwriting formula of the equilibrium, the disequilibrium etc, you plan the points in the story to get to that ending and, sure, go ahead and throw in some twists and turns if they fit. It is a very helpful and tempting way to wrote stories believe it or not and so I certainly understand why Rian decided to do it like that. The problem with it in the case of the sequel trilogy is that you had a writer in the previous film (JJ) who was initially NOT hired to complete the story but just start it; hence why JJ probably wrote TFA the way he did, most likely with no ending in mind for these characters and basically left it to the next filmmakers to puzzlesolve all the mysteries he left. Johnson comes in, a writer who WILL start by planning the ending first then working backwards from there. As a result, TLJ felt more like a second and third act to the overall story because Rian was writing a very different kind of film than JJ was and when you've got a studio that says to the first guy, "do it this way" then you say to the next one "fuck it. Just do what you want", that's a very bad storytelling formula, I think.
Now, it's entirely possible that Colin would've come in and would've been able to puzzlesolve Rians story and work around it but instead, Disney/Lucas film decided to bring back JJ, who remember, didn't plan the END of the story, only the START. As a result, he probably didn't know what to do and, essentially, had to start from scratch in order to find an ending while also coping with the demands that the studio were making for the last film.
I'd agree, you have to know more or less where you're headed before you start, or you're going to end up lost.
But you also have to know where you're starting, especially when you're continuing a story. Not just in terms of sequence of events, but character and tone. Those things can change during your own story, but you still have to connect them to where the old ones left off. Your path can curve, you can bend those things, sometimes quite a lot, but you can't break them. It just doesn't work that way.
Johnson's problem was that he was unwilling to compromise his ending, even when he couldn't find a path to it without breaking what came before.
Just make the sequels legends and call it a day
I will always be in the camp that no sequel trilogy should ever have been made. Additional material was best placed in the category of “C-Canon” and in different media, which it was.
JJ Abram's The Force Awakens told an incomplete story that raised a lot of questions but never answered them. That's not how you write a Star Wars movie.
George Lucas's SW films told complete stories. He kept the series going by keeping Darth Sidious alive. As long as Darth Sidious was alive, there would always be a new diabolical plot the heroes would have to deal with. Darth Sidious was the character who set the plot into motion.
Furthermore, to ensure each movie flowed into the next, nothing of any importance happened between the films. All important events happened in the films. When a new film began, you didn't feel like you missed something. Anything that did happen between the films was explained in the opening crawl.
JJ Abram's The Force Awakens, told a part of a story intended to be completed in later films. This put Rian Johnson in the difficult position of having to finish JJ Abram's story before he could start his own. Clearly Rian Johnson decided not to do that. He decided to only address events that happened in The Force Awakens and nothing more. Unanswered plot points were thrown out.
Furthermore, you could do an entire trilogy on the events that happened between episodes 6 and 7. The Force Awakens doesn't feel like a sequel to Return of the Jedi. It feels like it's several movies ahead of it. That wasn't the case with George Lucas's movies. The 20 year gap between episodes 3 and 4 didn't see a whole lot of change. The situation at the beginning of episode 4 was pretty much the same as it was at the end of episode 3. So the two films flowed into one another much better.
Now Rian Johnson made some mistakes too. He turned Luke into a cynical hermit disgruntled about being a Jedi. That's not how he was at the end of Return of the Jedi. You can't just change a character without showing how it happened. Furthermore, Ryan Johnson turned the members of the resistance into immature brats spending more time fighting each other than fighting the First Order.
And of course RJ's biggest mistake was killing off Snoke. Snoke was the character who set the plot into motion. Snoke was the reason the sequel trilogy existed. Snoke created the First Order. Snoke was Kylo Ren's teacher in the ways of the dark side. You kill off Snoke, there is no reason to continue.
So in closing, the mess was started by JJ Abrams when he produced an unfinished movie. Rian Johnson could have sucked it up and finished JJ Abram's story before starting his own but decided to take the easy route and throw out JJ Abram's unanswered plot points creating a movie that had no relation to the previous.
With regards to The Rise of Skywalker, by that point the series was dead. So the movie was pretty much a joke. Not much more can be said than that.
Well ANH wasn't written as part one of a trilogy. Yet ESB is largely looked upon as the best film of all the Star Wars film. So even if Abrams had no idea what to do after episode 7 was true(as I've pointed out multiple times it was reported by several people attached to the trilogy Abrams had treatments for episodes 8 and 9) that still doesn't justify the incoherent trash that is TLJ. There's a great deal a competent writer could have given the audience for episode 8.
I found it ironic, that he claimed to like it when half the audience hate it, yet he became extremely defensive and didn't accept people hating it.
Sometimes I wonder what would’ve happened if Mark just refused to act for Rian . I mean he is Luke Skywalker so it’s not like they’d be able to fire him. Mark knows better than anyone what Luke and Star Wars means to people, so if he saw Rians script as problematic, then he should’ve demanded changes be made.
Rian Johnson clearly didn't care about the movie or the fact that it was part of a trilogy. He was more interested in making his own film.
He sounded so pompous when he mentioned Miller’s Crossing (great movie) Johnson is a competent director. His movies bore me unlike the Cohen Brothers films which are mostly exciting.
Comparaing Johnson to the Coens is like trying to play Mozart on a Kazoo.
The Force Awakens was a lazy, dumbed down, lore breaking reboot, that made absolutely no sense in the overall Saga. It was filled with way too many coincidences, useless characters and dead end stories threads (typical JJ traits). Initial financial success yes (only due to the Star Wars label on the box), but those writing and story decisions were long term franchise destroying....as this sequel trilogy has turned out to be.
You'd think that with owning one of the biggest franchises in the world, you would at least tell your writers to craft an outline for the trilogy and it has to be approved by Lucas himself or at least be reviewed by a 'committee' of hardcore fans to be counted worthy of being called Star Wars.
It started to go bad on the opening scrawl of Episode 7. When I didn't read "The New Jedi Order" I knew this was going to suck. I didn't think this whole mess was going to suck this hard. I actually like the Holiday special, we didn't just hit rock bottom, we dug into the inner core.
The Root of all of this, mess of a trilogy, can be summed up in one word, WOKE.
Rian is a good filmmaker but he shouldn’t use popular or established properties or just let him make the whole trilogy so he can make the whole thing coherent.
Öntas Bülent whole*.
Come on. 🤷🏻♂️
James D not again
If he was any good he wouldn't have messed up this badly.
You hit the nail on the head.
Rian loves subverting expectations. While this works well when he is free to do whatever he wants, it doesn't work in a longstanding franchise with established rules and characters, as TLJ clearly demonstrates.
Also, you edited but didn't fix the second "hole".
This is a more nuanced take on the sequel trilogy than I’ve come to expect from you, and I appreciate the recognition that Rian Johnson probably wasn’t writing with the sole purpose of subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations, but rather writing to serve a particular theme and message.
My main critique of this analysis is that it doesn’t leave room for the possibility that Rian Johnson had a different interpretation of the characters than you. Certainly if you had very clear conceptions of the characters that were very different than the way they were characterized in The Last Jedi, it could seem like Rian Johnson was simply writing the characters doing what he needed them to do to reach a specific ending he wanted, disregarding established characterization. However, I think there are strong arguments to be made that the characters are portrayed consistently between The Force Awakens and the rest of the saga (save perhaps Rise of Skywalker, which very much had the characters do whatever the plot needed them to do regardless of characterization). They are just consistent in different ways than some fans may have expected.
Where some saw the character who refused to kill Darth Vader nearly killing his nephew, others saw the guy who nearly killed his father in a fit of rage but ultimately hold himself back (though not before he had done damage that would ultimately prove fatal) briefly consider killing his nephew to stop more future loss of life, but stop himself at the last moment (though not before ruining his nephew’s trust in him). Where some saw the villain obsessed with carrying on Vader’s legacy suddenly turn around and say “let the past die, kill it if you have to,” others saw a villain who was desperately struggling to find his identity, latching onto his grandfather’s legacy, and then having that notion crushed by his mentor, and back-lashing by trying to erase the past, despite still ultimately being obsessed with it.
These are all valid readings of these characters, and depending on how you interpreted the rest of the saga, The Last Jedi could seem like a radical departure changing things for the sake of change, or like a perfectly natural continuation that delved more deeply into themes that always existed but had not yet been fully explored.
Why save them when you they can simply kill them and start anew. I bet that is what most fans want.
Trying to fix these films feels a bit like putting lipstick on a corpse. Better to pretend they don't exist and perhaps work on a new sequel trilopgy to Return of the Jedi.
The Sequels... You will never find a more wretched lack of planning and creativity.
Rian Johnson: The director that trashed on Star Wars.
JJ: The embodiment of modern day Disney......the director that milks the classics.
Well, you're doing great so far; I hope everything you do with your storytelling from here is as good as what you've already done.
I have high hopes for you and I doubt I'll be disappointed.
Despite the faults of each individual film in the sequel trilogy, what you're hitting on here magnifies all those problems significantly. There is no cohesion to this trilogy. The Last Jedi throws out all the ideas from The Force Awakens, only for The Last Jedi's ideas to be abandoned in Rise of Skywalker.
You are spot on Thor, that taken out out of an existing story, The Last Jedi can be seen as an interesting take on that universe. And perhaps this was a reason why so many critics loved it. There are elements in it, I really like, for example the Luke story. However when its in the middle of a trilogy, there has to be references to the first film in some guise, and that just doesn't happen, which makes what follows, jarring to the extreme. I don't mind that he's a filmmaker that is a love him or hate him kind of director; I'd rather that, than a million Michael Bay's or Quentin Tarantino's, or hell JJ Abrams too. It just seems like there was no thread of a story throughout the whole trilogy, to solidify the characters and story, and Rian tried to change it too much, and for the vast majority of Star Wars fans who love the saga, it broke the illusion of that universe too much for them.
When I watched TLJ in theaters, although I enjoyed it, I realized that it was not made for me with quotes like “let the past die”. Being myself 43 years old and having watched ESB and ROTJ in theaters when they came out I thought “let the past die” was referring to people like me. 😓
Rian:Doesnt want to please everyone, thinks the best movies have people who think they were the worst movies ever.
Also Rian when people say his movie was bad:MaNbAbIeS!!!!
Jokes aside, you are doing a WAYYYYYYY better job so far. and you're probably right about Rian. He probably started with his whole "Don't meet your heroes" theme that now provides the main(possibly the most idiotic) defense of TLJ.
I don't know if they should fix it, honestly. Just move on, far into the future.
Can we rank Rian in “Hero’s vs Villains” so we can see where he stands among the greats🤭
DEW IT
lol, now that would be interesting.
@@thorskywalker DEW IT
Thor Skywalker you could do a spin off series for all of the writers and directors for Star Wars, movies, shows, exc
@@BrennanTheContentWhisperer I was thinking of him doing a whole saga, set in a unexplored time, maybe between the Old Republic and the creation of the rule of 2, right in the middle, before the brotherhood of darkness too but after the end of the old republic
somehow Rían Johnson tricked people into thinking he’s a good writer...
I suppose he’s a decent director, crediting his work on things like _Breaking Bad,_ but even his “good” movies like _Looper_ and _Knives Out_ are honestly just pretty dumb, in my opinion... and _The Last Jedi_ was a complete mess.
You always start TLJ argument with: whether you love or hate TLJ..
When the only correct way to address this particular issue is with: whether you hate or really hate TLJ. :-D
That line from Johnson, about wanting to polarize his audience as much as possible, has always seemed fake to me, like a defensive rationalization, possibly. His previous movies, Brick and Looper, I believe, had quite good critical receptions. And a movie maker who deliberately sets out to alienate half of his audience will not "work in this town" for very long!
I don't think we need to overthink why the sequels went wrong! JJ's movie making "philosophy" is a cop out of real story-telling - the mystery box "approach" - and Rian Johnson was allowed to be a spiteful, self-indulgent little brat because he was spouting the right political gobbledygook. Like many people have said, there was no over-arching vision for those movies, not even at the very beginning, not even a teeny tiny one!
I still love episode 7. It's a movie full of untapped potential. There's obvious flaws were each character personalities aren't air tight and Abrams probably should have use some scene time to give us a better landscape of the SW universe, but all in all the film was a huge positive for the franchise and a great start to Disney's version of SW.
There were so many great pieces and characters that alone worked in this sequel trilogy but not in this glued-together mess.
I do not know who to be more upset with; J.J. Abrams for conceiving a the derivative 'The Force Awakens' or Rian Johnson not following that movie, at least, and telling his story with what happened before.
I wish Colin Trevorrow had at least given us his own spin with Episode 9.
Are we really talking about the sequel trilogy? Is this still a thing? Just forget it and “let’s talk some Star Wars”!
There was no plan and the group that should have made sure of this didn't do their job!
JJ set things up, Rian messed everything up instead of demonstrating why they selected him and instead of listening to Trevorrow they fired him instead of understanding Trevorrow was right and let him save the trilogy.
It sounds like JJ tried but what we got isn't likely his choice for the Rise of Palpatine.
The sequels are a prime example of 'First Draft' work. Your first draft is rarely EVER the one that winds up in the final draft. This entire trilogy needed to be written before hand, and gone through at least five drafts.
I am a writer who works backwards. I see the ending, or a pivotal moment, and work to get to that point - and often that ending evolves to fit what I write so things flow naturally. But doing this isn't easy. It's one of the hardest ways to write.
Definitely agree that the contrasting writing styles and not having a plan was a big issue with the sequels, not there only issue by any means but a big one. I think TLJ messed things up a lot with Jake... i mean Luke.
Looking forward to the rest of this series and your own version, you are clearly a big fan and understand star wars very well. It'll at least be better than the sequels we got... not that that is saying much lol
Before I knew the expression "Deus Ex Machina" I used to refer to them as "Doctor Who moments" as David Tennant's series' were full of them!
He is a flavor of the month director with no certain future in Post Corvid-19 Hollywood.
This is why you don't have diversity placed over good storytelling or actual ending.
While the ending of LOST floundered, applying the flashback style character centric storytelling of LOST Season 1 to the sequels, could've given us an interesting dual look at how we got here 30 years after RotJ, and where we are now in episodes 7 and 8. Abrams, being a creator of LOST, could've done something like that and I think a lot of us liked TFA when it came out because we thought we'd get that or something like it in the next 2 episodes. A smart, clever explanation for all the plot holes and things that didn't add up. When we got TLJ instead, we knew the jig was up. It was a house of cards that had collapsed before our very eyes, leaving a Ruined franchise (pun intended) in its wake.
Bob Iger bought George Lucas' story treatments for the Sequel Trilogy. They should have stuck to this outline, not thrown it out. Lawrence Kasdan should have been given three years to adapt it into a screenplay as he writes good dialogue. However, Iger was in too much of a rush to get started and didn't allow sufficient time for the trilogy to incubate. Lucas' films were three years apart in all cases, but Iger wanted the whole thing done by 2019 to coincide with the launch of Disney+ and the _Star Wars Galaxies_ theme park extensions.
This only makes sense if the _Star Wars_ sequel trilogy is of good quality and can boost the rejuventated _Star Wars_ brand. Because Iger rushed it out the quality suffered and the brand has been devalued, as evidenced by poor theme park attendance and the failure to sell merchandise. The trilogy should have released on 2016, 2019, 2022 with spin-off films and television series occuring after the trilogy to fill in some prequel material, such as _Leia: A Star Wars Story_ starring Millie Bobby Brown.
I've compared Kathleen Kennedy's output to Kevin Fiege and she had a higher workload, so I don't blame her for some lack of production oversight. I doubt that _Solo: A Star Wars Story_ (which, frankly is a movie I wouldn't have made, as the mystery surrounding the character is fine) would have had production problems and needed a change of director if it had been the only _Star Wars_ movie Lucasfilm had to focus on at the time. The glut of _Star Wars_ content has made it no longer feel special. These event movies need to be somewhat rare and placing a spin-off on alternate years so an annual _Star Wars_ film is provided is relentlessly exploitative and diminishes their impact. If _The Rise of Skywalker_ hadn't left me with a headache it would have left me feeling numb. It is possible to have too much _Star Wars._
So long as the _Star Wars_ sequel trilogy has a single screenwriter it doesn't matter if it has multiple directors. Rian Johnson couldn't have undermined the tension in _The Last Jedi_ with lame humor and sight gags if he had to work with Lawrence Kasdan's screenplay. Same goes for Phil Lord and Chris Miller, who Kathleen Kennedy should never have allowed to improvise away from Kasdan's script for _Solo: A Star Wars Story_ and incur unbudgeted overtime in the process. Have them work on a _LEGO Star Wars_ musical parody, and their talents would have matched the tone of the material. Here it could be argued that Kennedy picked the wrong people to helm that spin-off, but I don't think Johnson was wrong for _Episode VIII,_ the truth is Johnson was wrong for _The Last Jedi,_ a title he wrote rather than whatever Kasdan would have come up with. _The Last Jedi_ sounds like an appropriate title for _Episode IX_ although my plans for the franchise had it ending with _Star Wars: Episode XII - The Final Sith_ where it would be revealed that Kylo was possessed by the evil spirit of Darth Plagueis the Wise, who had formerly possessed the hosts, Snoke and Palpatine. This would help unify the second sequel trilogy to the prequels and originals. I don't understand why Iger was in such a hurry to be done with telling the Skywalker Saga, Rey should have been the daughter that Luke never knew he had, and Keri Russell should have played Luke's wife, and Rey's mother, Mara Jade.
I am convinced it could have been good. Lucas should have sold it to another studio. Perhaps, Universal, then we wouldn't have got _The Mummy._
Imagine how easy rían Johnson’s life has been
I've actually never seen Game Of Thrones before, because I didn't have HBO at the time.
It seems that, as others have written, there was no overall plan in place. The OT had a general idea once it was clear that the first movie would lead to a trilogy. It wasn't set in stone; there was room for adjustments from directors, actors & screenwriters. But the general idea was there and there were guidelines. The PT was somewhat stricter, in that George Lucas directed & wrote all three movies and he knew where it would end up. But the ST was, it seemed, built around the idea of three writer/directors handed a general idea and given carte blanche on how to proceed, with nobody stopping them and saying, "That doesn't fit; change it." As a result, plans for the third film were scrapped and it had to be rapidly reconstructed as a film to unify two very different approaches. I'm not saying they need to have absolutely everything mapped out and strictly enforced (like JMS did with "Babylon 5"), but a firmer guiding hand with veto authority would've been better overall.