Hey John, Very nice video. I can tell you were really listening. Now we just need to get you some proper dividers. The flat leg models tend to flex when you lean on them to get a deep scribe mark. There are better options for serious layout work. Thanks for the plugs. All the best, Tom
I grew up doing layouts on wood... My tolerances varied between 1/32 for frames, to 1/64 for fine cabinetry. My favorite tool for this was a little different than dividers, a fair bit easier to set the distance, and it did not manage to shift being man handled... Beam compass. The adjustments were done on axis, in stead of above, so shifting was essentially 0. I still used it to try (replicating this project) on a sheet of aluminum, and was within .002. Had to use a carbide center drill though, since I dont have a punch. To test, used a set of calipers to measure hole to hole, adjacent and opposing. Distance was basically R-1/2(.125"), but it worked. Saw the first video about this posted earlier, while you were there, and wanted to try. Amazing how easily we overlook the manual methods! THANK YOU for sharing this, and actually showing your practice and final pieces. Great way to build confidence.
John, nice video. This is a good lesson for all new folks, really teaches you what a thou or two really means in the real world. Learned this 40 years back in the first machine shop class I took at Cal Poly. Wasn't easy to master especially in a summer class where the shop was in the 90's. One thing I was taught was to use two light wacks on the center punch rotating the punch 90 degrees between wacks making sure the punch remains vertical. Another project was to square up a small block of cast iron with a file.
Try this process with any PCD, but with say 5 holes(or any other number but 6) and you can really see what you have to do to get it as accurate enough to fit the JIG. When I was teaching Engineering to Apprentices, one of the tasks for them was to simulate the marking out of a flange(300-400mm PCD) for new section of pipe to be installed. Generally it would be about 325PCD X say 14 holes. They had to identify the centre of the flange, scribe the rather large PCD, calculate the Chord length and then mark out the 14 points of intersect around the PCD. You can imagine the time it took given that any error you made with your chord length was multiplied by 14. So they would always go back and adjust a number of times to get it right. But a very worthwhile exercise. Great Video John Thanks Peter
they are nice to see the old techniques in use that I learned 20 years ago when I was trained as a precision engineer. I enjoy seeing your youtub channel and Tom Lipton
Great tutorial, John. Attention to the fine details have a great influence on any layout. You showed lots of little tricks that my dad probably knew but I never got a chance to learn from him. I guess I need to tune up some of my layout tools. It definitely takes a "feel" that only comes with doing. A shoutout to Tom, what a great teacher. I hope I get a chance to meet him someday. Thanks John
Hi John I went back to what we call CIT ( Canberra Institute of Technology ) to do a TIG coarse and ended up continuing on to do geometric development which involves all things to do with design, layout and manufacture of ducting in HVAC and it was great to learn to be very accurate in the layout process. It is great to see how important it is to be accurate and how the compounding effect can bite you on the bum big time. Thanks for passing it on made for a great video I might try and get Tom to do a video on the layout process. Dave
The best scribe Ive made came from an old valve. I cut the stem off and put a 60* on it. It was tough enough to last but not so brittle I couldnt tap it with a hammer. I probably have a half dozen carbide scribes floating around now but the valve was good for me for years. I missed this video when you posted. I enjoyed watching while I had some coffee today. Thanks John.
Thanks very nuch. I usually watch this channel for fun, because I don't do, or want to do, CNC. But this was really useful to me. One of the most useful comments you made is "close is not good enough" and I intend to pay attention to this. Loupe and all.
Ha! The pressure, I know what it feels like. Great lessons learned from Tom. These are the skills too many of us stray from these basic skills, so this is a great topic to cover ;)
Just a small point: If you drew the circle with the divider, and did not reset/move it, it would always divide the circle in 6. So resetting your divider by the ruler afterwards, makes no sense :) If it didn't make exactly 6 points around the circle, you were not being accurate enough. It is not the measurement on the divider, unless it wandered on you, which it shouldn't.
I got 8x reading glasses from my optometrist....They are awesome. Another thing that cannot be overstated is LIGHT. You have natural light...I collect draftsmen lights or architect lights...The articulating arm types. I have 6 of them set up right in my work area.
That was a nice contest but the hole punch was a bit of a problem. The darn hole punch slipped out of my center punch mark twice on the last hole. Thanks for the video.
+NYC CNC I told Tom and he said if the punch mark is still there try again. But the hole punch just slipped out of the center punch mark because it was sort of downhill to the hole. Tough break. If they have that again and it is a lot closer to home maybe I can get a second chance. =(;-)
That was an excellent tutorial John and very well done. That's a classic apprentice exercise here in Oz, not sure how it works up there. I think some people may not appreciate how accurate manually laying out can be. Ironically the humble layout tools are often where people cheap out and never really get to appreciate just how accurate this process can be. If there was ever an instance of buying quality, this must be it. These tools will last numerous generations and can be picked up used for peanuts. Personally I would also use layout ink on this too, maybe that's just personal preference, but it was how I was taught. I think it makes it easier and, as Tom might say, can sometimes help prevent Mr Bozo making a guest appearance when you pick up the wrong mark. Not that it would ever happen ;) I use Dymark, or even a Sharpie at a pinch. Dymark is better but stains badly, one container will last forever however and isn't expensive. I agree, Tom Lipton is an extremely knowledgeable gentleman who is generous with his time. I will second not only his channel, which I've learnt an amazing amount from, but also his book, which is truly excellent. I just wish I could watch more of his videos. Tom, make your videos shorter!!! It's an amazing age we live in, where this wisdom can be so easily shared and preserved for future generations. A sincere thanks to all who take the (considerable) time to make it happen.
One thing to remember is the points on a set of dividers are never the same so a simple thing is to put a marker on one leg so it is always the one that you use as the pivot point . Have a look at the clickspring channel for some really fine marking out !
After watching clickspring channel, and Adam Savage even mentioned this, but for demonstrations like this using some "marking fluid" or blue/purple "steel blue" to really make those marks poop and show on camera :) great video, keep em coming!
I just started learning aircraft metal sheet fabrication and repair . Is there is any good tutorial videos for how to measure layouts on paper? Thank you in advance .
John, don't remember anyone telling me this but I've always handled the dividers mostly by the knurled knob on top. I'm sure some one told me this next part because it sounds just like a shop teacher but the limbs aren't handles. Yup, sound just like my shop teacher speaking to me or something like that. Great video. The art of hand layout isn't dead but it's not as strong as it used to be. I think I'm going to invest in some layout die and get a new pair of dividers.
It's a good exercise for any one to learn/practise, marking out and drilling pcds was one of the first exercises I was given as a apprentice! cad has killed alot of stuff like this!
Great vid John and keep them coming and how can i get some of your stickers i would like to get some and thanks for all the vids you put up and please keep them coming Thanks Robert
That's cool, I learned something. Thanks man, that would work great if you don't have an indexing plate or tools to just do it without having to lay it out by hand, at least for some layouts.
I have an off subject question. I have a small cnc mill and I use a electronic edge finder to set my X and Y. If my machine/software knows the tool length of my edge finder could it be used to set the Z axis as well?
Something seemed off about this method: If you make a circle with radius=2". The circumference would be 4*pi (2r*pi), or 12.566. 12.566 divided by 6 equal divisions is 2.094. So if you keep your divider at 2, you SHOULD NOT end up with 6 evenly spaced holes. Your divider needed to be set at ~2.1". Using a 1" radius would bring you closer. Using a 10" radius there's no way you would have fit on the jig (made for 10").
Great video upload John. You and the viewers may want to try when wanting to find the center of a Square or Rectangle piece of metal, just draw a "X" (make as big or small as needed.) Using any straight edge. Start at one corner (say top left side), and go diagonally to bottom right, mark a line approx. center (as long as you like, or makes you feel warm and fuzzy) then do the opposite, using your straight edge, starting top right corner, to bottom left corner, mark a line (as big as necessary.) You now have the center of your part. Simple geometry.. This method can also be used on flat bar stock, just pre-determine how big of an "X" you want or need. :-)
NYC CNC I was. You were talking to someone and didn't want to interupt. It was like that all day. I would just sit back and listen. There were some really great discussions.
not to be a anti safety Nazi, but a brass hammer on a impact punch isn't gonna send shrapnel into your eye. as long as your punch doesn't say "not for impact use" and you're not using a hardened hammer. brass is soft so no chips to worry about, punch won't explode haha. doubt that you'd be punching pre hardened steel but I guess that would call for safety squints.
Hey John,
Very nice video. I can tell you were really listening. Now we just need to get you some proper dividers. The flat leg models tend to flex when you lean on them to get a deep scribe mark. There are better options for serious layout work. Thanks for the plugs.
All the best,
Tom
I grew up doing layouts on wood...
My tolerances varied between 1/32 for frames, to 1/64 for fine cabinetry. My favorite tool for this was a little different than dividers, a fair bit easier to set the distance, and it did not manage to shift being man handled...
Beam compass. The adjustments were done on axis, in stead of above, so shifting was essentially 0. I still used it to try (replicating this project) on a sheet of aluminum, and was within .002. Had to use a carbide center drill though, since I dont have a punch. To test, used a set of calipers to measure hole to hole, adjacent and opposing. Distance was basically R-1/2(.125"), but it worked. Saw the first video about this posted earlier, while you were there, and wanted to try. Amazing how easily we overlook the manual methods!
THANK YOU for sharing this, and actually showing your practice and final pieces. Great way to build confidence.
John, thank you to taking the time to help clearly explain the competition.
John, nice video. This is a good lesson for all new folks, really teaches you what a thou or two really means in the real world. Learned this 40 years back in the first machine shop class I took at Cal Poly. Wasn't easy to master especially in a summer class where the shop was in the 90's. One thing I was taught was to use two light wacks on the center punch rotating the punch 90 degrees between wacks making sure the punch remains vertical. Another project was to square up a small block of cast iron with a file.
Try this process with any PCD, but with say 5 holes(or any other number but 6) and you can really see what you have to do to get it as accurate enough to fit the JIG.
When I was teaching Engineering to Apprentices, one of the tasks for them was to simulate the marking out of a flange(300-400mm PCD) for new section of pipe to be installed.
Generally it would be about 325PCD X say 14 holes.
They had to identify the centre of the flange, scribe the rather large PCD, calculate the Chord length and then mark out the 14 points of intersect around the PCD.
You can imagine the time it took given that any error you made with your chord length was multiplied by 14.
So they would always go back and adjust a number of times to get it right.
But a very worthwhile exercise.
Great Video John
Thanks Peter
they are nice to see the old techniques in use that I learned 20 years ago when I was trained as a precision engineer.
I enjoy seeing your youtub channel and Tom Lipton
Great tutorial, John. Attention to the fine details have a great influence on any layout. You showed lots of little tricks that my dad probably knew but I never got a chance to learn from him. I guess I need to tune up some of my layout tools. It definitely takes a "feel" that only comes with doing.
A shoutout to Tom, what a great teacher. I hope I get a chance to meet him someday.
Thanks
John
Great video John! Sometimes our mistakes are the best teacher! Glad you took the time to share with us, lessons learned from a master like Tom!
Hi John
I went back to what we call CIT ( Canberra Institute of Technology ) to do a TIG coarse and ended up continuing on to do geometric development which involves all things to do with design, layout and manufacture of ducting in HVAC and it was great to learn to be very accurate in the layout process. It is great to see how important it is to be accurate and how the compounding effect can bite you on the bum big time.
Thanks for passing it on made for a great video I might try and get Tom to do a video on the layout process.
Dave
The best scribe Ive made came from an old valve. I cut the stem off and put a 60* on it. It was tough enough to last but not so brittle I couldnt tap it with a hammer. I probably have a half dozen carbide scribes floating around now but the valve was good for me for years. I missed this video when you posted. I enjoyed watching while I had some coffee today. Thanks John.
Thanks very nuch. I usually watch this channel for fun, because I don't do, or want to do, CNC. But this was really useful to me. One of the most useful comments you made is "close is not good enough" and I intend to pay attention to this. Loupe and all.
Hey John,
I was glad to see you sharing some of the highlights from the Bar Z Summer Bash. We all appreciated you making it out to California!
That was great John, learning something from the Jedi master, and paying it forward!
Ha! The pressure, I know what it feels like. Great lessons learned from Tom. These are the skills too many of us stray from these basic skills, so this is a great topic to cover ;)
Just a small point: If you drew the circle with the divider, and did not reset/move it, it would always divide the circle in 6. So resetting your divider by the ruler afterwards, makes no sense :) If it didn't make exactly 6 points around the circle, you were not being accurate enough. It is not the measurement on the divider, unless it wandered on you, which it shouldn't.
I got 8x reading glasses from my optometrist....They are awesome. Another thing that cannot be overstated is LIGHT. You have natural light...I collect draftsmen lights or architect lights...The articulating arm types. I have 6 of them set up right in my work area.
Manual layout with a CNC twist, enjoyed!
Nice layout job John
That was a nice contest but the hole punch was a bit of a problem. The darn hole punch slipped out of my center punch mark twice on the last hole. Thanks for the video.
+NYC CNC I told Tom and he said if the punch mark is still there try again. But the hole punch just slipped out of the center punch mark because it was sort of downhill to the hole. Tough break. If they have that again and it is a lot closer to home maybe I can get a second chance. =(;-)
That was an excellent tutorial John and very well done. That's a classic apprentice exercise here in Oz, not sure how it works up there. I think some people may not appreciate how accurate manually laying out can be. Ironically the humble layout tools are often where people cheap out and never really get to appreciate just how accurate this process can be. If there was ever an instance of buying quality, this must be it. These tools will last numerous generations and can be picked up used for peanuts.
Personally I would also use layout ink on this too, maybe that's just personal preference, but it was how I was taught. I think it makes it easier and, as Tom might say, can sometimes help prevent Mr Bozo making a guest appearance when you pick up the wrong mark. Not that it would ever happen ;) I use Dymark, or even a Sharpie at a pinch. Dymark is better but stains badly, one container will last forever however and isn't expensive.
I agree, Tom Lipton is an extremely knowledgeable gentleman who is generous with his time. I will second not only his channel, which I've learnt an amazing amount from, but also his book, which is truly excellent. I just wish I could watch more of his videos. Tom, make your videos shorter!!!
It's an amazing age we live in, where this wisdom can be so easily shared and preserved for future generations. A sincere thanks to all who take the (considerable) time to make it happen.
If you can't scribe a line well with your dividers use some layout stain sometimes called marking blue. It will show far better.
Awesome John! Thanks for sharing
- Trond
One thing to remember is the points on a set of dividers are never the same so a simple thing is to put a marker on one leg so it is always the one that you use as the pivot point .
Have a look at the clickspring channel for some really fine marking out !
After watching clickspring channel, and Adam Savage even mentioned this, but for demonstrations like this using some "marking fluid" or blue/purple "steel blue" to really make those marks poop and show on camera :) great video, keep em coming!
Hard to beat old school tips. I have a DRO on the Bridgeport but no CNC stuff. I'd like to learn it but I'm a poor old dog.
Thanks, CJ
Nice job!
thanks Tom and John i learnt something new today :)
Fantastic lesson!
How do you like that Husky box in the background?
I saw Judd looking over your shoulder! Good helper...
I just started learning aircraft metal sheet fabrication and repair . Is there is any good tutorial videos for how to measure layouts on paper? Thank you in advance .
John, don't remember anyone telling me this but I've always handled the dividers mostly by the knurled knob on top. I'm sure some one told me this next part because it sounds just like a shop teacher but the limbs aren't handles. Yup, sound just like my shop teacher speaking to me or something like that. Great video. The art of hand layout isn't dead but it's not as strong as it used to be. I think I'm going to invest in some layout die and get a new pair of dividers.
Got hollered at allot;0)
It's a good exercise for any one to learn/practise,
marking out and drilling pcds was one of the first exercises I was given as a apprentice!
cad has killed alot of stuff like this!
take a scale and center punch it at the 1 inch intervals (or however you want) and it will make setting the dividers quick and easy
Nice demo and run-through of the layout project John. I should do more layout myself....
Colin ;-)
Great vid John and keep them coming and how can i get some of your stickers i would like to get some and thanks for all the vids you put up and please keep them coming Thanks Robert
That's cool, I learned something. Thanks man, that would work great if you don't have an indexing plate or tools to just do it without having to lay it out by hand, at least for some layouts.
Nice job.
I have an off subject question. I have a small cnc mill and I use a electronic edge finder to set my X and Y. If my machine/software knows the tool length of my edge finder could it be used to set the Z axis as well?
+Chad Choate You can definitely do this in Path Pilot. I do it with my Haimer and it works great.
Ok thanks for the reply. I didn't want spend 500+ on a haimer zero master at this time.
woudnt that be a 4" circumference with a 2" radius?
Use of metal marking dye makes for much greater visibility. Why not use it?
Something seemed off about this method: If you make a circle with radius=2". The circumference would be 4*pi (2r*pi), or 12.566. 12.566 divided by 6 equal divisions is 2.094. So if you keep your divider at 2, you SHOULD NOT end up with 6 evenly spaced holes. Your divider needed to be set at ~2.1". Using a 1" radius would bring you closer. Using a 10" radius there's no way you would have fit on the jig (made for 10").
+NYC CNC I stand corrected
Dykem?
Great video upload John. You and the viewers may want to try when wanting to find the center of a Square or Rectangle piece of metal, just draw a "X" (make as big or small as needed.) Using any straight edge. Start at one corner (say top left side), and go diagonally to bottom right, mark a line approx. center (as long as you like, or makes you feel warm and fuzzy) then do the opposite, using your straight edge, starting top right corner, to bottom left corner, mark a line (as big as necessary.) You now have the center of your part. Simple geometry.. This method can also be used on flat bar stock, just pre-determine how big of an "X" you want or need. :-)
It sure looked easy until I tried it. Great use of CNC and Fusion360.
NYC CNC I was. You were talking to someone and didn't want to interupt. It was like that all day. I would just sit back and listen. There were some really great discussions.
It's nice to walk through with another novice.
not to be a anti safety Nazi, but a brass hammer on a impact punch isn't gonna send shrapnel into your eye.
as long as your punch doesn't say "not for impact use" and you're not using a hardened hammer. brass is soft so no chips to worry about, punch won't explode haha.
doubt that you'd be punching pre hardened steel but I guess that would call for safety squints.
Did he just say aluminum isn't metal!!???