Operation Sealion: Actually a Bad Idea
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
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Sources:
Philips Payson O Brien, How the War was Won
Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy
Leo McKinstry, Operation Sealion: How Britain Crushed the German War Machine
www.naval-hist... for factual information on locations of RN ships
Music:
“Crypto" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
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“Rynos Theme" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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“Exciting Trailer" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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You want a _very_ bad idea? Take on the British Empire, the United States, and the Soviet Union all at once.
o o f
Nah that a great idea look how it went with Hitler
Well to be fair it was the British Empire that Declared War on Germany. Germany only declared war on the Soviet Union and the United States, France, Poland, Luxembourg, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, etc.
@@dario0523 correct besides it was beligum that set off the Brits...it is possible britan would have taken much longer to join had beligum been left alone
Espc no that was WW1 mate Britain declared war on Germany after they invaded Poland and also the British were the main factors in D day suppling most of the men, ships and equipment
You forgot that to resupply the German forces, they needed to capture a port. Every port in South East England was rigged to blow if the Germans invaded making them utterly useless for any invader. The Allies in 1944 pulled their resources together to create their own harbours and even then they were limited. This is why the capture of ports such as Cherbourg and Le Havre were vital in the latter stages of Overlord.
Also keep in mind that things still went badly during Overlord, especially at Omaha beach, and that operation involved the two leading Naval powers of the time, who had been preparing for such an invasion for at least 2 years, and had previous amphibious experience in Norway and the Pacific.
And people still say Sealion would've succeeded...
Sir
i like you
i see you are a man of culture as well..
@Andy the Malevolent Exactly. Canada learned that the hard way August 19, 1942
Strictly speaking you _can_ resupply over the beach, but it's a slow, laborious process, and since it would have relied on river-barges (most of which were unpowered), would have seen incredible losses.
@@GoranXII We resupplied over the beach by the expedient of building two floating harbours and taking them across the channel with us. Non trivial with a navy and airforce still existing which is why the RAF would need to be defeated before such an attempt (we had defeated the Luftwaffe). With zero air cover but still with ship and subs the RN could have near suicidaly damaged or sunk any similar harbour the Germans had used if they had tried without the superiority at sea.
However the idea that we had explosives wired in harbours seems a little dubious, if we had then what was to stop a German bomb triggering the disaster during an air raid? I have little doubt we would have done our best to put the major harbours out of action once an invasion fleet was on the move.
@@davehitchman5171 Resupply 'over the beach' does *not* refer to the Mulberries, but to supplies delivered either by landing craft, or by amphibious vehicles.
Also, demolition charges aren't made of raw nitroglycerine, but of gelignite (at least, the British ones were made of a version of it), so for said bomb to unintentionally detonate the explosives, it would have to land very close, probably close enough to do the work of the explosives anyway.
Yeah sealion is the kind of thing that is only possible in a video game with incredibly unintelligent ai... No game in particular, why do you ask?
@@thoughtfulinsanity3050 I think we all understood which game you where talking about :P
lmao true, but it's a very daunting undertaking in HoI3.
@@jakobschoning7355 yeah that was unnecessary.
Victoria 3?
It's possible in Supreme Ruler Ultimate. Only if you somehow manage to kill their navy.
Something that is always forgotten among all this is the role that the regular army supported by the Home Guard would have played. Yes, they had a lot of equipment lost at Dunkirk, but ww1 weapons had been mothballed or given to secondary units & would have been brought back into frontline service. Ok they wouldn't have been state of the art, but good enough when you're firing from a defensive position.
Also, the Home Guard were not the rag tag badly organised bunch that popular culture believes them to be. Many of them were hardened combat veterans who had a deep seated hatred of the Germans from the last war. I don't think they would have just watched them land & run around yelling "don't panic". Rather they would have poured all available hell onto the beaches & ripped apart whatever made it past the Royal Navy. If any units made it past the beaches, well, much of the south of England is like Normandy. We know what trouble the allies had breaking out of that situation, with equipment vastly superior to that of the Wermacht in 1940, plus the German defenders often didn't really know the area of Normandy they were defending as they'd get transferred around a lot. They wouldn't have had any intimate knowledge of the south of England, unlike the people they would have been fighting, particularly Home Guard units who were often made up of men who'd lived in those areas for many years. Good luck with that, seriously.
I feel things would have panned out very differently if Sealion had taken place. The world would have seen that Hitler & the Nazis weren't unstoppable much earlier than they did. Imagine the effect that would have had on people's perceptions & ultimately the outcome of the war.
Old WW1 machine guns still fire bullets,ww1 era bullets still kill a man, old artillery and anti-tank guns might not work on panzers but it would rip infantry to pieces, but here is the thing a lot of people who think Germany could successful invade Britain forget., the Germans would have no armour when they land and little to no heavier weaponry either. So even if only a few light British tanks attack the beachhead with infantry support, they could quite easily drive the forces into the channel. The Germans would need to capture a port very soon or on invasion day in order to get there armour and heavier weapons across. Now taking ports in seaborne invasions never go well and the port is destroyed normally before it falls or is damaged from the fighting. I doubt the Germans could take a port at all on invasion day never mind take it intact.
Then there is the factor that if the Germans had invaded the UK managed to stay there somehow and form a bridgehead, the supplies would be shaky at best, the commonwealth would send spare troops to the UK in assisting in it's defence alongside any Pacific based British troops who are also called back home. The Canadians i know would quickly muster up some forces to send over to help. never mind the left of revenge seeking units of the occupied nations who have retreated to the UK already. I really doubt the Polish would just sit by as German troops stayed in a beachhead on the UK. they would seek revenge for there homeland. Same goes for other nation's troops as well and even the BEF wanting pay back for Dunkirk.
I think that like America, Hitler would find some willing accomplices in England. He was celebrated before the war. Before the true horror was considered.
“You can always rely on America to do the right thing. When all other possibilities have been exhausted”
-Churchill
But Britain and France sent there best to fight Germany and were defeated in France. In 1914 and 1939.
@@courageunitycompassi France wasn't defeated in WW1 either...
Not to mention the fact that the Germans had no real experience with amphibious operations, almost no dedicated ships/boats for amphibious troop landings (they were pressing barges into service) and no real plan for the creation of artificial harbors to temporarily supply troops (necessary until you capture a good port) and no capability of building anything of the kind. Their navy was inadequate to the task and they had no tradition of a marine-type force who specializes in this kind of thing.
It took more than a year of planning and preparation for the allies to successfully execute the Normandy landings, even with their far better knowledge of--and experience with--amphibious warfare... and D-Day was still touch and go.
Sea Lion was a crazy idea.
In the 1970s, the British military conducted a war game scenario of a hypothetical Operation Sea Lion with the assumption that Germany fails to gain air supremacy, but does not bomb London, giving them enough control of the skies to try.
In short: Using converted river barges, Germany successfully lands with small losses and establishes a beachhead and also uses paratroopers, they are able to move inland roughly 20km before getting bogged down due to good defenses and lack of good tanks and heavier artillery. As time goes, the British land forces successfully counterattack while the home fleet crushes the little defenses of the Kriegsmarine and blocks necessary supplies and reinforcements. Eventually, the Germans are forced to evacuate with most not making it.
Operation Sea Lion was agreed upon by everyone to be a failure.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(wargame)
And that only could happen if the Royal marine did not intervene and the Luftwaffe was buffed. Either way it was a failure.
Laughs in hoi4
I can just imagine the barges en masse. The RAF has a turkey-shoot. Then a large UK boat drives through them, and crushes a few, lots more get sunk by the wash. The rest are totally scattered and have great difficulty reforming. Oh, and the RAF comes back, again, again, again. Not many left
late reply i know.
but the british got a few unfair advantages in that game that heavily influenced it.
these are even mentioned in the wiki page.
it probably wouldn't have resulted in a different outcome, but it's possible. perhaps a new game should be held? :P
I believe in this scenario the RN gave the Germans 24 hours to land unmolested. As if that would have happened!
if Germany had just done what Cristo did that one time and played only x5 speed, they would have been able to invade and win in 6 minutes.
simple stuff
Legend
Count Cristo I love you Cristo
Count Cristo Your most popular videos are hoi4 you should make more of those
Of course it was a bad idea.
It seemed to just assume the Royal Navy would sit on its arse and allow a huge convoy of unarmed or armoured barges to cross the channel entirely unmolested. And the RAF was perfectly capable of providing tactical air superiority over the fleet.
RN would have stood off and shat on sealion from 25 miles away (main armament range approx) IF they even allowed it to leave its ports.
It was always a ridiculous notion.
The Royal Navy might just do that.
Once all the German material and men are in one place, a night dash with the home fleet through the channel with guns blazing would probably force Germany to capitulate sooner.
It is the resupply problem that would ruin it for the Germans. The RN's stated advice to the government is that they lacked the means to stop the Germans from landing tens of thousands of troops in the south of England. The reason is that they had the Home Fleet stationed far to the north at Scapa Flow - where the Luftwaffe could not bomb their facilities or attack ships at anchor. The German bombers that might be capable of hitting a battleship or cruiser maneuvering at full speed lacked the payload capacity for bombs that could penetrate the ships' armor. The plan was to keep the Home Fleet intact where the Germans could not whittle away at it so that in the event of a landing they could flood the Channel with overwhelming naval strength. Losses would be high on both sides but a German invasion was an existential threat to Britain so the Royal Navy would have thrown everything they had for as long as they could to break the invasion force. And they had so many ships they could lose and still have naval superiority.
Also, talk about the Luftwaffe achieving air superiority misses the point. That isn't enough. For D-Day the Allies achieved air supremacy. German bombers supporting the invasion would still face British fighters and at night British heavy bombers would pulverize whatever port facilities the Germans were using on either side of the Channel. Hard to hold a defensive line much less advance through hostile territory when your fuel and ammunition reserves are gone.
The RN was afraid or the Luftwaffee and the RAF wasn’t big enough then to take on the LUFTwaffee
@@tomhenry897being afraid is not the same as being unwilling to fight.
@@tomhenry897 I would argue that the RAF was big enough to take on the Luftwaffe at this point. Because.. you know.. they won the Battle of Britain.
Yes, there were moments when the situation was dire, but they weren't going to lose.
We all know the Italians raised their flag over Big Ben and conquered the UK
Edit 2021: I predicted the future.
Napoleon I Bonaparte spaghetti.exe has stopped working
Nah it was *THE THUNDER DRAGON EMPIRE*
A certain bald Italian who has a boner for re-creating the Roman Empire would be very pleased.
Napoleon with 60,000 troops and the whole french fleet invade britain. Fail
Hitler with the Luftwaffe and the entire german navy invade britain. Also fails
Some bald guy with a bowl of spaghetti as a boat and some wine travel around the world to invade britain. Somehow succeds.
Nah, the Italians only conquered the British mods, and they did that with Vespa scooters and cool cloths.
If they actually tried to launch an invasion there’s a chance that they could’ve immediately lost the entire war by the sheer catastrophic losses and I think that is fucking hilarious
Almost every beach good enough to make a landing on England's South Coast had been fitted with pipework to set the sea ablaze using a mix of oil and some other flammable chemical.....and an army of coast watchers were waiting for an invasion to begin..... Surprise would have been impossible.....
Honestly had they tried I think the Soviets would have done a stab in the back. Just imagine the German high command in this timeline. You just got finished with operation Sealion which as you predicted would be a trainwreck resulting in the loss of the majority of The Luftwaffe, only to then learn The Red Army has launched an invasion in the East. Not a good time at all.
@@davidperin9938they would be even more screwed than they were irl
The Germans lost half their destroyers at Narvik Norway to the hands of the RN.
They pretty much burned all their chances at invading England in that one battle.
Using barges echoes of Erkine Childers Riddle of the Sands,
it was crazy then in 1910, even crazier in 1940
Riddle of the Sands is an underrated classic
Even if they landed, they would just have to surrender after a week or two. It would be impossible to supply them. Just no chance.
It would have become a reverse Dunkirk by December 1940
The Wehrmacht surrounded in Dover trying to get to Calais
True that - Sausages were rationed in England.
They would just use convoys to supply their troops sure many would be destroyed but just build more dockyards and convoy spam
Two weeks of stable supply for Army Group ? Win for Germany anyway. For single army ? Royal problem for British.
@@piotrd.4850 Thing is Germans couldn't have maintained secure supply lines, with first night British navy would have attacked German convoys and landings.
Just think how much it took for Normandy landing to happen.
Sure, but Germany had 4 years to build the "Atlantikwall".
@ Then gets attacked where it's weakest.
@@kaletovhangar just when Germans thought that they would land in Calais
The Atlantic Wall was breeched within a week. Static, depthless defenses are fundamentally flawed.
René Wuttke But the atlantic wall was at no one place as powerful as six battleships, twenty cruisers and fifty destroyers. It would only have taken a fraction of that fleet to get into the channel and destroy the invasion fleet or to bombard the invasion forces and supplies on the beach.
The logistical situation of an invasion force landing in the isle’s would have been extremely dire so no wonder the german high command was unconfident about the operation, unlike the overconfident luftwaffe which thought that it was unstoppable and that Britain would fall in mere weeks
Logistics, Logistics, Logistics!
Didn't the Luftwaffe also promise to completely destroy the Dunkirk pocket while they were bottled up?
Although to be fair to the germans, they never really had to do a lot of naval invasions before. They barely had an empire, and they had a big land border with most of their enemies.
Luftwaffe might have been able to supply the troops for a while, but the invasion would have needed lots of tanks to succeed and that would have been impossible to get over.
@@MK-je7kz Tanks can't go anywhere without the fuel and maintenance.
Amateurs think tactics, professsionals think logistics.
A close comparison is the Africa Corps in 1941-42. The RN and RAF successful isolated the Africa Corps from its base of supply and they dropped like a plum. Out of gas, ammo and supply.
Sea lion still has its defenders. But when you ask them to justify all the changes necessary to make it work, they start to get really defensive.
Or they try to claim submarines could resupply the Heer, and you can just laugh at them.
The Luffwaffe will save us!
@@asnekboi7232hhhmmmmm where have I heard THAT before
What changes
Sealion was the equivalent of a fly planning to attack a spider while the spider was in it's web. You can't plan around the web...
I think the fact the Germany navy thought this was madness is telling
I suspect that Erich Raeder hoped that Goering's boasting would come true, and Britain would come to terms. If so, any landing would be, at most, little more than ceremonial, akin to the Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay. In the meantime, preparations, such as the assembly and conversion of large numbers of (unsuitable) barges and motor boats, went ahead. Directive 16 commanded it, and disagreeing with the fuhrer was unhealthy.
Thought going to war was madness as wanted 2 more years to prepare
And it certainly would have been madness. The Royal Navy was at it's strongest in 1940.....
And they didn't even know that the Enigma code machines were compromised. That and early radar systems would play a part in British defenses.
I mean the German navy was the only department of Germany with at least minimal acceptance of reality and they actually knew their capabilities
Your're disregarding the historical observation that if you paratroop london with 1 paratrooper division in HOI4, you capitualte the UK. This historical negligence is unacceptable!
You think Churchill would have surrendered had the Germans suicidally dropped paratroopers on London?
I think your historical negligence is shown by how that same person would have fought by himself against any odds and the British wouldn't surrender even if the German paratroopers had gained a foothold.
Where were their supplies coming from in the middle of a heavily armed city in the middle of a heavily armed country?
@@patrickelliott-brennan8960 im joking about a video game. HOI4= Hearts of Iron IV. Lmao, you thought I was serious? LOLOLOLOL you made my day for your inability to understand sarcasm.
@Schmidty LOL. Sarcasm? Fine.
@@patrickelliott-brennan8960 have you not heard of hoi4?
No. I'm afraid not. I had to look it up after you mentioned it just now. Seems quite interesting. Unfortunately these days I don't have much time games, more's the pity.
We all know the home guard would defeat any invasion force
Home guard could singally handly defeat the entire german reicn
Well, of course!
Well they wouldn't panic that's for sure
The Germans wouldn't like it up em!
Wasnt the the Home Guard extremely inept?
IIRC correctly in the Sandhurst wargames of 1974, only the British navy, air force and army was taken away then they could succeed lol.
They left out the home guard and found that Germany could defeat it.
Good video! Acually Raeder was praying for a failure in the Sky control as he knew Sea Lion was suicidal... there was a wargame played in UK in 1947 that show how bad could Sea Lion had been.
I think you are referring to the Sandhurst Wargames. Which as played in the 1970s.
They found that the only way to win SeaLion, was you had to take away the army, navy and air force. Only after the Home Guard was left, Germany won lol.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(wargame)
@@solarfreak1107 Yep true. It was not 1947, but 1974....dammm "keyboadr"! ;)
@@Prometosermejor no it was in 1974, good try champ.
@@Prometosermejor Don't worry typos happen. You're good ! :)
Álvaro Alonso Macías Raeder was extremely incompetent and if Donitz had power at the time operation sea lion would have been possible with air superiority
It was hitlers fault at the time as well not allowing the Bismarck and Tirpitz to be put into service early with the later being in port for the whole war
Having read Leo McKinstrys book, I can tell you that any one invasion force would have been absolutely annihilated by the Royal Navy. If they had established a beach head, they would have been destroyed by flexible deployment forces and sea defences.
Also take into account the hundreds of small craft that they could have used filled with explosives and sunk to creat a barrier. The U.S. was also supplying the British by the start of the war. Chances are that they were going to supply light weapons for defense like mortars and hundreds of possible rifles and machine guns.
Why does everyone think the Royal Navy would have stopped the invasion force? If the Navy did go in the Channel the Luftwaffe could have destroyed it with an effective fighter escort, and lure the RAF into a pitched fight. Essentially what the Luftwaffe tried to get the RAF to do when it was bombing shipping in the channel before Adler Tag.
bill 012 Have you not just watched the video? The Krigesmarine were completely outmatched. The Luftwaffe weren’t as all powerful as the British beloved. Even if the Luftwaffe gain air superiority temporarily it doesn’t mean they could retain it.
@@bill0127
This would be the same Luftwaffe that had trouble hitting ships sitting in port?
@@chakatfirepaw same Luftwaffe that had no trouble of hitting _tanks_ on Eastern Front.
Dunkirk showed that even under ideal conditions it's very unlikely that there would have been 'heavy casualties' to RN warships from the Luftwaffe. All those destroyers just parked off Dunkirk with German air superiority and how many did the Luftwaffe sink over the whole campaign? Three. Now imagine them trying to bomb accurately in a swirling melee in the channel where ships are twisting among smoke and shell at high speed. Not a chance. Not only were the Luftwaffe planes inadequate, so was their anti-ship ordinance, and so was their crew training. They didn't even begin to get a decent anti-ship capability until 1941.
Especially given that at least part of any anti invasion fight was likely to happen at night .
Tell that to the British sailors whose ships were sunken offshore Crete by the Luftwaffe in May 1941 with the same planes that were fielded already in May 1940.
@@MaximKretsch Operating without air cover and low on AAA ammo neither of which is likely in the channel they still managed to destroy the seaborne element of the invasion of Crete .
Indecisive action in Dunkirk was one of many German blunders. Also: remember Prince of Wales ? They were thinking and saying pretty much what you just said. Didn't help much against japanese. Also: Germans didn't need another Taranto - Luftwaffe had to just STALL RN and RAF long enough for Herr to capture major airfields. I agree in principle that Germans had lot of problems and deficiencies for successful operation with reasonable odds - but again, that was true of most of their campaigns, where it didn't hamper them as much as their own command blunders.
The Japanese specifically equipped and trained for anti-ship combat for years before Pearl Harbour, because they believed that knocking out the US Pacific Fleet was essential to their war aims. The Luftwaffe was a purely tactical air force equipped and trained to support the German army. They had no plans to fight the Royal Navy, and thus didn't really put much effort into making preparations to do so.
How come this Channel has only 53K? wheres the Milion!?
Great channel. these kind of videos are why i subscribed in the first place!
To be fair any naval invasion is unbelievable costly and difficult, especially against an island empire with the largest navy on Earth, like Great Britain.
Dell12 16 costly sure, but operation sea lion was impossible
Sea lion was a bluff to force Churchills hand, neither Hitler nor Raeder took it seriously but once the charade had started it had to go on. German generals were world class and had shown throughout the war that they always did the unexpected. Hitler was the cross that the profesional generals had to bear.
@@albundy9597 if your suggesting that they could have pulled it off don’t, British Generals where also world class and knew this was a bluff, and they also likely knew it was impossible for the Germans with or without Hitler in command. German weharboos like to blame everything on Hitler ignoring the fact that the German generals where not infallible
@@harleyokeefe5193 Nobody is infallible but it does make one think that with virtually the whole world against them it still took the allies 6 years to defeat them. I doubt that any of the allies alone could have defeated them. I do think that without 'Barbarossa' German troops would have eventually been marching down Whitehall.
@@harleyokeefe5193 I have no idea where I heard or read this many years ago, but I recall that Churchill had stated in private that he wanted the Germans to try it as he thought it would be a disaster for them. I haven't been able to substantiate that memory though.
There’s no way the British are going to sit and allow Germany to mine anything
I really think Hitler grossly underestimated the brits stubbornness
The best single summation of the folly of Operation Sealion I've heard was that it treated an amphibious invasion like a river crossing.
Even if they had the equipment to invade and successfully did so, any delay on the ground or sea would leave a beachhead completely vulnerable to the royal navy bombarding the living hell out of them. Trucks fuel, food & water, tanks, artillery etc... Would be destroyed or require extensive repair, which would not be possible. This would cripple any army. It would make Dunkirk look like a swell day out to the seaside.
This assuming the royal navy didn't just shell them in France before they even set off.
The Royal Navy could have done that assuming the RAF had the skies still. But the operation was always contingent on the RAF being out of it. With no RAF the RN ships would likely have been sunk well before they could inflict more than token damage on an invasion force. The German navy still had some amount of ships and subs at that stage which could have also hurt any such RN attempt.
@@cosmonautbilly9570 U-boats don't work well in the channel, to shallow for them to dive from depth charges. The German aircraft also lacked anti capital ship bombs. the british did have heavy weaponry still in Britain. they where not completely disarmed.
@@cosmonautbilly9570 I think you don't know how stupidly brutal doing an amphibious landing is.
The British to my understanding, actually did bombard invasion preperations several times a night. They primarily used older battleships like the Royal Oak class. As to how effective it was I don't know. I just know they did
The RN pissed themselves at sight of a German plane from the beating they got at dunkrik
Another excellent video. The biggest problem for Germany was not the actual invasion. There's a reasonable chance that could have succeeded with some luck. The biggest problem would be supplying the troops once they got onshore. Even a small salient would have been nearly impossible to supply after the first week. The Kriegsmarine just didn't have the experience or planning to maintain a supply conveyor, and it's doubtful that they could have mobilized enough merchant shipping to carry the volume of supplies needed.
Sar Jim I agree that a large beachhead was impossible for the Germans to maintain, but I've always wondered what would have happened in the Germans had managed to land a battalion sized armored and mechanized group, to be re supplied by air, with orders to hide in the day, attack at night, and hit British airfields, radar stations, and destroy resupply infrastructure, bridges, and communications.
@@gibbletronic5139 It's an interesting concept. I'm not sure where a battalion sized outfit would be able to hid by day since their landing wouldn't have gone unnoticed, and the RN and RAF would be pounding them around the clock. Given what happened with attempts to resupply in AFrica using lumbering Ju-52's would have an almost impossible time getting to the beachhead and back again. I think the only chance would have been landing in force and then holding enough area to allow resupply by ship and planes landing at airfields. Holding airfields would have allowed the Luftwaffe to get in the fight with the RAF without having to fly cross channel.
Actually, I was thinking that the Germans would land someplace unexpected, like the areas of the peninsula to the north of Cornwall with several company sized units landing at different locations which have British cruiser/crusader tanks attacking multiple objectives simultaneously, with resupply coming in on gliders and paratroopers providing the replacement manpower.
This would have given this raiding force the ability to resupply at preselected locations, or wherever needed, according to the tactical situation. The RAF would have a much more difficult time locating smaller groups, and they might even hesitate attacking what looks like friendly troops and tanks. By using english speaking troops in the raiding group, the Germans might even be able to convince some members of the Home Guard that they are friendlies, and sow confusion that way.
The Germans had plenty of captured British equipment and uniforms after driving the BEF back across the channel, and I think that this would have been the best use for it if they were going to try and achieve air superiority over the RAF during the early stages of the Battle of Britain.
At the very least, such a raid would have diverted the RAF from defending against the Luftwaffe bombing raids, and the RAF would have to worry about their air bases coming under ground attack.
If the Germans managed to blow up several bridges to isolate an area around Cornwall for at least several days, they might have seized an airbase or two, and if the Luftwaffe had managed to stage planes from there, things might have become rather interesting, especially if the Germans kept the civilian population mostly in place to avert the anticipated British use of chemical weapons.
I think that this sort of raid is high risk, and would have probably failed, but if the Germans had managed to take the air bases around Cornwall, base a few squadrons of fighter planes there, drop in a regiment of paratroopers, and land in a few batteries of 88 flakcannons to support the 40-50 tanks and 50-60 half tracks that remained and that they would already have in place, then things would have become incredibly interesting.
@@gibbletronic5139 I guess the concept of a raid rather than landing in force might have had a chance although what happened in Dieppe might have been the same fate in England for the Germans. If there were specific objectives like blowing up bridges or dams, that may have been doable with planning and good luck. I suspect the Germans didn't have much faith in their skills at amphibious landings, and the experience with paratroopers at Crete in may of 1941 would have put paid to the idea of large scale deployment of paratroopers. It's an interesting concept, and one that may have worked if the Germans had the like of Admiral Yamamoto on their staff.
"a reasonable chance that could have succeeded with some luck" Wot? They had literally *zero* chance even if someone gave them cheat codes and deleted RAF and Home Fleet AT ONCE. Nazis had simply not enough ships to actually send a big invasion force, and as noted in video, even what they had were river barges that would be sunk even by wave from fast ship sailing nearby, meaning they would lose the ships they had in next few days. Then you have what, 100.000 soldiers stuck without ammo, food, or fuel in enemy country? It would be week at most before they surrendered and Churchill would have massive propaganda win by parading elite troops in chains through London for all the foreign reporters to see...
Taking into account the Germans didn't even have specialized landing craft, the converted civilian transport ships transporting the invasion would've been great target practice for the boys in Royal navy
Or just someone inland with a properly ranged Mortar.
yep loads of people in the comments saying the british home guard would be no match for the infinite panzer divisions that could totally get across the channel in the millions of landing crafts for them lol
Hitler was writing checks the Kreigsmarine was unable to cash.
Germany lacked the industrial power to make landing craft. Relying on river barges being towed across the channel was a pipe dream.
But… but… in Civ 4’s WW2 mod I can destroy the entire british military in 6 turns of bombing, land a single paratrooper to take London, then airlift an army in from there! What do you mean that is “a complete fantasy” and “entirely unworkable”?
Computer games do indeed seem to be the basis of many commenters opinions of the strategies employed during WW2.
In Alternate history circles, Alien Space Bat, a term for anyting literally in our world impossible, was first used specifically to describe a successful Sealion, as in "it would take the intervention of alien space bats to make it succeed." The cool thing is, I was on the usenet new group when a woman who was a real history buff first coined it.
Which type of "bats" we talkin' 'bout?
Because I find both options to be equally hilarious.
It took the U.K. and U.S. 3-4 years of war to gain enough experience & materiel to venture across the Channel. The idea of Germany conducting an amphibious landing in 1940 -- the first for them, and against Britain itself -- was indeed preposterous.
Another point not mentioned is that, in 1940, no nation on earth possessed the specialized equipment (landing craft) that would have made this kind of amphibious operation possible on the scale needed to accomplish its goals. The Americans were just starting to acquire Higgins boats, and the British military would develop an impressive amphibious capability over the next four years. But, in 194 the German military did not have the physical capability to land these large numbers of troops across an open channel. Sea Lion was a pipe dream from that standpoint alone.
Bed-knobs and Broomstick was a really compelling hypothetical scenario of a failed german landing.
😂🤣
Also, the Luftwaffe couldn't have won air superiority, not over the whole theatre. At the most, they could have won air superiority over the counties of Kent and East Sussex, but that would just have meant No. 11 Group pulling out of those bases, it certainly wouldn't have done anything to affect their airfields further inland, or those of No. 10 and No. 12 groups. So in effect the Luftwaffe was being asked to:
1) Suppress the RAF (at least, Fighter, Bomber, Coastal and Training Commands)
2) Suppress the RN surface fleet
3) Provide fire-support to the army
Yes, okay, Goering was far from the best possible leader the Luftwaffe could have had, but even Nick Fury couldn't have done the job.
no idea of crossing the strait is good when your enemy has 12 battleships and around 6 aircraft carriers when you have none
What makes me laugh is over recent years a belief has grown in historical circles and amongst the last surviving veterans in Germany that they didn't really intend to invade it was all bluff to convince the british to give up. Their excuse is 'Well we only lost because we weren't really trying'.😅
Remember.... "If at first you don't succeed, deny ALL evidence that you ever attempted it in the first place".
The turning point of WW2 was battles of Narvik in April 1940. The Norwegian campaign was a disaster for the Kreigsmarine. Many of their capital ships were either sunk or put out of action, and they lost half of their entire fleet of destroyers in a few days. From that point, Sea lion was doomed and the war was lost.
Theoretically operation babarossa could have succeeded then western allies wouldn't have landed in France.
@@deralte4527 Operation Barbarossa lasted until December 1941, so it had already failed long before D-day. The battle of Stalingrad ended before the allied invasion of Sicily so you probably also not referring to Case Blue. And 2 weeks after D-day operation Bagration started which destroyed army group center. So what are you referring to?
UK:Our navy has spent the last 400 years defeating other nations navies and taking countries.
Germany:Our uniforms are designed by Hugo Boss
I wish you'd brought up the Wehraboo delusions that U-Boats were capable of taking on entire fleets or that paratroopers were somehow capable of fighting without supply and dropping with zero air superioty.
@@doesthisneedfurtherexplana5862 I always find that funny, by all accounts Britain had the power to beat Germany on its own, it would have taken time, maybe a second war but Britain had what it took
@@tombstone3echo which is not a bad strategy in my opinion.
The allies won because of US supplies, Soviet men, and British naval and aerial power.
@@11Survivor well of course it was a very good strategy, and they did good, but saying britain could defeat them on their own is just bullshit.
UnknownKeepo tbf I’m a case of total war with no time limit eventually Britain would win but it would take so so so long neither side would want to bother fighting anymore as it would just be Britain spending years building up a force from across the empire while starving Germany it would be a war that would take till like the 50s probably at least just for all the pieces to fall in place the USA massively pushed the boat along as did the soviet union
@@tombstone3echo but I don't think anyone would have been able to do it on their own. The US is fundamentally too far away to take on both Japan and Germany at the same time and without the British empire for stationing troops wouldn't have been able to do anything. The Soviet Union was massively supplied by the US and UK who also gave the Germans another two fronts to worry about (they wiped it out of their history books tho) and also wouldn't have defeated Japan.
Back in 1974, a wargame was published by Simulations Publications Inc. for the wargame hobby entitled "Seelöwe: The German Invasion of Britain 1940." ("Seelöwe" is German for "sealion.") In the rules, designer John Young notes the following:
"The two most striking characteristics of (the game) Seelöwe are the absence of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force."
(He then discusses how the Germans might have defeated the RAF and the Brits pulled their air force into defensive positions in the north of the country.) He then goes on to say about the RN: "Everything which has survived to this day concerning the possible use of the Navy shows that the British government fully intended to, if necessary, sacrifice the British Navy in the Channel in order to stop the Germans from instituting an invasion." He goes on to say that for the sake of this alternate history game, an alternate history of the RN would have to be assumed such as the RN retiring to Canada or some other scenario. The bottom line is that Germany had no realistic hope of conquering England. They were just expending time and resources for no purpose.
The other thing you did not mention was the in depth defences put up in the southern England. Beaches were covered in all kinds of impedances to make the initial landing difficult and requiring effort to clear to allow a bridge head. The southern English coast is a mixture of sheer chalk cliffs and river valleys with extensive marshes, particularly at that time. There were many substantial barriers constructed across dry fields etc up to the roads. At the first hint of an invasion the roads would have been blocked and possessions taken up by troops to make the possible weak parts killing zones. One air field in Kent was planned to be abandoned with the hope that the Germans would land on it. It was mined across its whole area. The airfield is still there and is located next to the Kent show ground. The mines were only removed about 20 years ago!
I understand that the British plan was only to put up a token defence to the landing and to wait for most of the men and equipment to be landed.
The Navy would then have cut off the supplies across the channel and the RAF attacked the ports in France where the stuff was being collected. The landed troops would be attacked from land, air and sea. They would not have got far.
With what
Everything was left at dunkrik
@@tomhenry897 There was a lot of mothballed WW1 equipment around Britain & the Germans had no way of bringing over any of their medium to heavy armour.
The sea ports in the area were boobytrapped & would have been blown up, the Germans had no Mulberry harbours to allow them to land supplies in the quantities needed.
HOI4 Disagrees with you.
One of my biggest gripes with Hoi4 is that it makes naval invasions far easier than they should be
@Random.exe just paratroop swarm the English.
Just spam BF109 and paratroopers.
Funny thing is, I think the people who think invading Britain would have been a good idea have played too much HoI.
Historigraph I don’t disagree
When even the Nazis say it is a bad idea... IT'S BAD IDEA.
The best evidence against Sealion’s plausibility (IMO) is D-Day. Even WITH air superiority, naval control of the channel, and the right ships for the crossing (and a multi-nation coalition), the Allies suffered thousands of casualties. Sure, the invasion was ultimately successful, but the German army would be trying to do the equivalent with missing pieces.
Perhaps it was understandable to plan around such an invasion, but anyone looking back after June 6, 1944 should see how impossible it would have been.
The strength of the Royal Navy in this era is fundamentally misunderstood by so many. The famous names of Bismarck and Tirpitz lead to a distortion about the Kriegsmarine's strength, I think. Sea Lion really does seem to be a fantasy that cooler heads ultimately prevailed on. It would have been a catastrophe, but maybe it would have ended the war a little earlier.
Especially since in September 1940 neither Bismarck nor Titpitz was operational, whilst Scharnhorst & Gneisenau were still repairing torpedo damage from the Norwegian campaign.
The strongest ship in the German arsenal was a single heavy cruiser.
Britain had too many torpedo boats for any navy at the time to pull off invasion without getting their navy obliterated
When you take into account the complex nature of planning and timing the miracle of Operation: Overloard compared to Operation: Sealion, It's hard to imagine that any successful invasion of the UK was possible by the Axis forces, especially in 1940.
As a quick dose of common sense: consider the effort that the Allies put into the Normandy invasion. Consider that the US and Royal Navies had absolute control of the Channel, that the Allies had spent two years learning how to win an amphibious assault. Consider the specialized landing craft that had been developed. Consider the planning that went into Normandy. Then compare all that to the German armies standing along the French coast as they hoped to make one crossing on some river barges pulled by tug boats. Sea Lion was a silly idea.
Who would've guessed, trying to navaly invade the world's greatest seapower is not a good idea.
I am so glad that someone agrees with my own assessment of Sealion as an inevitable catastrophe. This "invasion" would have been such a botch and a joke that it's likely the war would have ended two or three years early on account of it. Multiply D-Day by 1,000 and you have the likely horror the Germans would have faced trying to storm the southern shores of England. The cliffs are higher, yet comparably fortified. They had far less planning; a couple of months as opposed to literally years. They did not have the specialized landing craft, amphibious vehicles, mobile harbors, etc. that made the Allies' cross-channel invasion of Fortress Europe possible. They had this theoretical scenario of landing such and such a number of men, but no real idea of how they were going to do it.
Then there's the naval aspect. The Royal Navy had dozens of refitted WWI, treaty-era, and early-post-treaty battleships, cruisers, and destroyers on call to steam into the channel and rain hell on the beaches where the Germans were trying to establish a beachhead. Was the Kriegsmarine supposed to stop this with two battleships Hitler was afraid to deploy, three glorified battlecruisers, and no aircraft carriers whatsoever? The Royal Navy would have absolutely LOVED for that entire force to show up to the party so it could be sent to the bottom of the channel en masse.
What's more, the Luftwaffe, even had it secured air superiority (Fat chance; you can just about build a Hawker Hurricane in your own garage with the right tooling and a set of blueprints.) would have lost so many pilots and aircraft that their ability to address the naval threat would be crippled to the point of comedy. Imagine one or two flights of Stukas in bad repair and with rookie pilots trying a bomb run on a battleship with determined anti-aircraft gunners -- that battleship, by the way, being escorted by two or three cruisers and even more destroyers full of still more incredibly angry young Brits with anti-aircraft weapons. It would be like watching a flock of ducks try to storm a blind full of rednecks with shotguns in the Florida Everglades.
Lastly, and most importantly, an invasion of the UK, had the Germans somehow miraculously gotten enough men across the channel to effect it, would have looked like what America feared an invasion of the Japanese home islands would have looked like a few years later. Churchill had said that any lad who could throw a cricket ball could throw a grenade, for St. George's sake! You don't win that battle. No one does really, but at the end of it, you do not own the territory you came to take. For a contemporary example, see Putin's "ten-day special military operation" in Ukraine.
And Sealion would have been worse. Its script was a farce so poorly written that nobody bothered with a production.
It was an idea - a bad idea - but one that had to be discussed of course . But people are all here acting as if they discovered some incredible secret or hold some rarified opinion on Sealion lol .. Nobody cares , nobody believes it could have worked and that is why it never happened . Why in the world do people waste so much time worrying or arguing over such things is beyond me . Believe what you want -- guess how much other peoples theories and opinions effect my life ..?
Debate bros are weird . Internet master-debators are insufferable .
@@SabbaticusRex Nothing in life more disingenuous that going out of your way to tell other people that you don't care what they think.
Particularly after the experience of the German navy in Norway, Sealion WAS a pipe dream.
There is also the fact that the German army relied on horses for most of their transport, they and their fodder would have to be transported across the Channel. Battleships which did cut off the supply route, could also be used as heavy artillery to bombard enemy troops on shore.
@John Fritz bbs typically have powerful aa defenses and the raf
@John Fritz
That would have relied on air superiority, the Ju 87 was very vulnerable to fighters and also would have needed armour piercing bombs. Before they gained the necessary experience, most Luftwaffe successes against ships were mainly limited to slow cargo vessels or ships that were stationary.
@@grahvis During the withdrawal from Norway, the Luftwaffe subjected a cruiser (sorry, can't remember the name) to incessant bombing and never even hit it!
As if it was no fodder for horses in UK. Not a convincing argument
@@lucius1976
There wouldn't have been enough fooder for a sudden influx of several thousand horses on a small part of the English coast, assuming they were successfully landed in the first place. Plus of course, it is usual practice to deny the enemy anything which would be useful to them, it doesn't take more than a couple of minutes to set fire to a haystack.
Completely agrees with this video, invasion of Britain would have been disastrous for the Germans.
Even the Invasion of France in 44’ was a monumental task for the allies, and they had complete control of the skies and seas.
There was no way in hell the Germans could have accomplished Sealion without air or sea superiority.
Subtitle suggestion: "How the royal navy won WW2 by existing" 😁
How the Royal Navy saved England by drinking tea
I have long maintained that Germany lost WWII as soon as the Royal Navy moved to its blockade station in Scapa Flow in September of 1939, from that point on it was merely a question of whether Britain's allies came through and the war could be won in 4 years like WWI or whether it would take 20+ years of wearing down the continent as in the Napoleonic Wars.
@@costakeith9048 Good for you
@@CC-tl3zs Actually, good for Britain and the supremacy of the seas over the land.
The plan was doomed from the start. The RAF was not neutralized, and the German Army had to cross the English Channel, which is not a river. The British had already proven to be superior in fleet action in Norway, so the result would probably have been a lot of German soldiers drowned in the Channel.
Goes to show that without complete and overwhelming air and sea (naval) superiority, it is near impossible to successfully invade an island nation.
Winston Smith just look at D-Day and you’d understand how hard it is
Ask the Spanish
Which England didn’t have
If you look at how much of an effort was put into the D-Day landing, how worried the Allied commanders were despite Germany being sufficiently weakened by that time, you can understand that German amphibious assault on Britain was pretty much impossible. Allies had secured the skies and were in control at sea yet they were still worried that the D-Day might have failed. Regarding the air superiority of the Luftwaffe. I believe that Britain was producing more aircraft than Germany which means they were able to replace losses faster than Germany, while Germany was loosing more planes. I do believe however that Germany had a stronger Ground Army at that time and would have possibly won a land war if they were somehow magically transported over the channel.
That sums up the whole illogicality of the position taken by Sealion supporters. It took to two largest navies on earth, one of which had been undertaking combined operations for 200 years, around two years to produce operation Neptune/Overlord.
Yet the Germans, with a tiny navy, no assault craft, and no previous experience, were expected to do the same in about eight weeks? ABSURD.
This was a very good video, although with one caveat. The German invasion fleet suffered from two fundamental problems. The first, as the video states, was to supply the invading troops once they had landed. The far more serious problem- contrary to what the video states- was the difficulty in actually getting even the first wave of the invading fleet ashore.
The invasion force consisted in large part of unpowered barges which had to be towed across the channel. Because of this, the speed of advance of the force was so low that when the tide shifted against it, the invading force would actually be pushed backwards toward the European continent. The result of this was that the invasion fleet would require the better part of two days to assemble and cross the channel. This more than enough time for British air and naval forces to converge on and pulverize the invasion force- and the barges of that force were vital to German inland river traffic.
Overall however, the video presents an outstanding picture of magnitude of difficulty facing the Germans and is one of the best that I've seen.
This video needs to be shown to Americans in school, perhaps it will put an end to the misconception that they ‘saved’ us
Lol without American supply, the UK wouldn’t have been able to hold out.
Kuro Usagi I think a population can manage without America sending them tanks.
Louis Wallis it wasn’t the tanks or ground weapons that mattered. It was the destroyers.
The British Navy at the outbreak of WW2 consisted heavily of Battleships which were great against other surface ships, but poor against aircraft and submarines. British supply convoys would never have survived the Atlantic without American provided destroyer ships manned by the British Navy.
@@kurousagi8155 50 clapped out 1920's destroyers that took so long to refit the Battle of the Atlantic was essentially over... you mean THOSE destroyers? So it is nothing to do with the 294 Flower Class Corvettes the British and Canadians built specifically for Convoy Escort duties? Or the several hundred other Corvettes, Frigates and Sloops such as the Back Swan, River and Castle Classes? Nothing to do with Britains OWN Destroyer building program? Nothing to do with the prodigious advances in SONAR technologies? Or the development of HfDF, Centimetric RADAR or ASW Weapons such as the Hedgehog (all British)? Nothing at all to do with any of those?
Nothing to do with the fact that the German Submarines never managed to sink the tonnage of shipping they needed to sink each month save for three months, and those were NOT contiguous? Nothing to do with the fact that due to efficiency drives in Farming Britain reduced its food import requirement from 75% to 25% in 2 years thus freeing up more transports for other war materiel?
Except for protecting the Eastern Coast of the US the USN pretty much left Canada and the UK to fight the majority of the Battle of the Atlantic until well into 1943. The US itself was desperately short of Escort destroyers, as evidenced by the fact that even THEY used Flower Class Corvettes (renaming them Action Class Patrol Boats). People overstate the impact, at least on Britain of the Destroyers for Bases Deal, it was stacked WELL in the US's favour. Indeed, the most effective of these 50 Destroyers was HMS Cambletown, which was used as a floating bomb to put the St Naziare Dry Dock out of action for the rest of the war (one of only a few Drydocks the Germans had access to able to take Bismark and Tirpitz sized vessels).
So yes, I agree with the OP, Britain could not have WON the war without the US, but neither did the US 'save' Britain. Alongside Canada, Britain had already done that herself.
alganhar1 so why did the British accept the deal in the first place? Seems to me like you British were doing a bang up job fighting your war by yourselves.
Also, the Battle of the Atlantic did not end until war’s end. It lasted from the outbreak of war in Europe until the Germans surrendered. Even then, at least 30 of the destroyers were in active duty. The Royal Navy only had 145 Flower Class Corvettes ready for action at the outbreak of war and the hedgehog ASW mortar, as powerful as it was, wasn’t ready until 1942. So the American destroyers still made up about 1/5 of the Royal Navy’s escorts. Not to mention the assistance of the US Navy is securing the UK’s supply routes.
Sealion was a bad idea, I don’t think anyone who knows anything about WW2 doubt that. But I think that pantomiming an invasion was crucial in trying to get the British to come to the negotiating table and it being a bad idea does not preclude German activation since Barbarossa was a terrible idea and it very much happened. Nazi high command really enjoyed creating grand, master plans that were realistically impossible.
While the Kriegsmarine knew how unworkable the plan was due to their lack of strength, the German army and air force were not of the same opinion. The Kriegsmarine dutifully did what was asked of them in assembling the paltry maritime forces available to put the flawed plan into operation, the German army eagerly practiced and prepared with 30 divisions including 4 panzer divs assembled in north east France and Belgium, and the vast majority of the Luftwaffe directed at the UK. As you say luckily for the Germans the first phase of their plan fell flat on its face, and brought the whole process to a grinding halt.
But don't forget, a under resourced, poorly planned, hamfisted attempt is STILL an attempt.
I mean, if the Luftwaffe couldn't stop the fleet in Operation Pedestal right off the coast of Italy, there's no way they could've stopped the entire Home Fleet from disrupting a Channel crossing.
A great illustration of capabilities is looking at how many destroyers were sunk by the Luftwaffe during operation Dynamo - compared to the total number of destroyers involved. Just a small %. And they got to attack ships that were stationary - taking on passengers. Trying to hit a destroyer maneuvering at speed over 30 knots was quite a different matter.
Luftwaffe dive bomber pilots had been trained to a very high degree of precision on stationary targets. They weren't so good at moving targets.
After WW2, Sandhurst ran a mock battle to mimic Sealion. It's a while since I read about it, but the result was an overwhelming loss for the Germans, and the British fleet was the decisive factor. Going into WW2, and at the end, Britain still had the largest navy in the world; but not for long thereafter,
was it such a bad idea? Canadian farms could always use more field hands after all
GDS Pathe: Yes, many German POWs were sent to Canada.
How Germany Could Win WW2
Not Start it
Or wait another 20 years...
Alas, Mr H spent some years preparing and 1939 seemed the best time to go for it, for military and economic reasons.
There are some people out there who still believe Sealion would have been successful. It was not going to be successful because you also have to take into account the Supplies,resources,Industrial capacity of the Germans and other important factors into consideration if Operation Sealion was possible. It's not and I hate the fact that to this day some history nerds especially at my school still think and say that Operation Sealion could have worked. Like Dude the German Airforce and Navy arent as strong as you think and thinking about the strength of a couple U boat's, Tanks and Planes arent isnt gonna guarantee that the operation would have been successful.
There are many people who think Germany was close to winning the war. They weren't close, they were lucky to get as far as they did.
The less the Sealion 'Would haves' know about the actual facts, the more they are convinced that it was possible.
A 'would have' by the way, is someone who, in support of a successful Sealion tells everyone confidently of what the Luftwaffe (or the Kriegsmarine, or the paratroopers, or whoever) 'would have' done.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 Its not even remotely easy in Axis and Allies never mind reality but I blame gaming for the main reason why people think it is actually in any way possible.
Very interesting thoughts and take on Operation Sealion. I wonder if Sealion had gone ahead, it would've further weakened the Nazis and maybe, ironically,shortened the war?
France has the maginot line.
Russia has the space to retreat and gather forces.
Britain has *B I G A S S M O A T*
In all the comments I cannot find a reference to my favourite book on this topic: Geoff Hewitt’s “Hitler’s Armada”, which demonstrates pretty conclusively that any German invasion fleet would have been a turkey shoot for the Royal Navy.
Smh its because Germany didnt spam naval bombers
Thanks for the video! It's so tiresome with "history buffs" claiming Barbarossa was this huge mistake, and that Germany could have won by invading Britain. Yeah, because it works in Hearts of Iron it must have been an option in the actual war...
RobertP2000 LOL ikr I’ve always found that a bit of a retarded view because people seem to forget Britain (at the time) was the second most powerful country and had the biggest navy with 30x more ships than Germany
Besides, Stalin had planned to attack Germany in 1943, and that would have destroyed the Germans completely.
@@huge7800 Yeah, people think "oh if Germany had just done x y and z, they would have won" no, it was Germany against 3 super powers and having to babysit Italy, its amazing how far they got.
@@huge7800 Citation needed. Historians like Glantz disagree with you.
@@misterscienceguy yea stalin would have just sat there while all of his ideological enemies (capitalists and fascists) wore eachother done and done nothing. You need to get out of your ideological echo chamber dumbfuck.
Churchill was also going to use chemical weapons on the German landing sites. Something like "It's our land and we can defend it however we like."
Indeed
Hearts of Iron 4 left the chat.
"Hitler was convinced that once the French were defeated then the British would have no choice but to make peace with Germany". Talking that way about the country that refused to make peace after been rekted 5 times against Napoleon, what could go wrong ?
Even if they had landed, had proper landing craft, and favourable conditions. The scene on the ground would have been a truly horrifying experience for any German unlucky enough to pull duty for that diabolical operation. With pipes buried in the beach waiting to spew fire everywhere, pillboxes everywhere, a willingness to spray the beaches with mustard gas from the air. Ports rigged to explode, flamethrowers disguised as hand railings. It could make Normandy look like a cakewalk.
Of you are forgetting the best part: boxed in on and near the beach because of limited heavy equipment to defeat simple WW1 tactics of barbed wire and machines guns (for lack of properly designed landing craft to carry such things onto the beach), a RN cruiser parks 5 miles off the coast and rains 10" shells on the exposed German positions.
Big naval guns are incredibly accurate compared to the normal artillery fire, because they larger weight shells perform more consistently under the wind conditions, and enemies on or near beaches are "direct fire" targets (instead of needing a spotter to walk to a target that cannot be observed).
Story for you Historigraph! Very relevant to your points about troops cut off in Sealion's theoretical landing.
World War 2 Online, (2008? I forget) - Christmas Day.
Developers had recently put in Ju-52s and Fallschirmjäger. While useless, we cram 50+ players into some Ju-52s and leave from somewhere around Brussels late evening. Flying over the English Channel with minimal escort, we somehow arrive over Whitstable without RAF interception.
The plan: land Fallschirmjäger at a nearby factory, kill A.I. defenses, place satchel charges, blow it up...then evacuate to our nearby and landed Ju-52s.
Except the plan didn't quite go that well... RAF arrived just after we jumped and shot down the Ju-52s as they loitered for landing. A late response from the RAF let us down but...there would be no going home. The rest of the plan went as intended.
By now, the Allies had realized what was going on. Reserve troops were spawning in to hunt us down.
The Fallschirmjäger at my and another officer's command, retreated to the >BRITISH< bunker at a nearby army base. We slipped past their reserve troops desperately hunting down every last German... and set up in the killholes on their own bunker.
One British soldier died to us. Word got out. Soon more spawned in. They died as well. They were armed with rifles, we with automatic weapons. The fight would go on for 20+ minutes. The British laid siege to their own Bunker. We kept hold until ammunition ran dry...and soon were over ran and died. Fought to the last man.
To this day, I hold this experience and memory close to my heart. One of the greatest experiences I've had in WW2 gaming.
Ah yes, that was how the Germans should have done it
It is my understanding that the RN possessed some 800 small motor torpedo boats. These would be extremely hard to hit from the air, and would be too many in number for the small number of German destroyers to deal with. They could easily evade the minefields, even if the mines remained in place with the British minesweeper fleet. They could then infiltrate among the riverboat convoy attempting the Channel crossing, launch their torpedos, rake the riverboats with machine gun fire, and attempt to capsize them with their wake.
Finally someone does a proper researched video on sealion and doesn't follow the false trend of the German always win narrative that is so common in today's popular culture
I know right, I saw a video a couple of years ago that claimed Britain would of surrendered the moment any Germans troops landed, this incused all would be resistance fighters and that all of the public would capitulate without incident.
Today's popular culture? The trend that 'if we didnt stop the Jerries, we'd all be speaking German right now!' was brought up by the older generations and it makes sense as to why. As the well researched video explained, the population directly affected by the War literally thought that Germany was an unstoppable juggernaut. Post War, it was generally frowned upon to explain that WW2 was a lost cause for Hitler from the very beginning because it can be considered an Offense to those who died. It's like saying 'well of Germany really was not so bad, why did Papa have to die fighting them then?'. It's been 70 years now - we've had time to sprawl over the facts and realize that A- WW2 was a losing war for Germany since 1939, they needed to of waited til at least 1945 before they committed to their crusade and beyond that, their first strategic target should have been the middle east. B- Hitler was not a maniacal genius, he was in fact a village idiot who lucked into Supreme power by accident and C - next time a megalomaniac applies to an Art School, for the love of Christ just let the dude paint and give him a participation award. It stops World Wars.
Nurhaal, While im not saying Hitlers plan for ww2 would have worked, but if he waited until 1945 the Soviet (land) war machine would've unbeatable. Most likely resulting in a Soviet offensive and the end of Germany.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD his ideas were not really all that 'clever' in hindsight. They were 'opportunistic' and often made in reactive decisions. 'Lebensraum' was an goal yes but it's method of execution was entirely reactive and hell, even the goal was a reactive decision. The whole idea of the agenda was to annex Germanic speaking lands for more labor and tax revenues because Hitler had three different economic advisors all warn him that he was spending Germany into another depression if he kept course. The one thing Hitler really had going for him was ambition. He had the trait that separates the CEO from the common floor worker. You don't need supreme intelligence to rule a kingdom, just some balls, good charisma and the ability to embrace your sociopathic tendencies and distance yourself from sympathetic thought. That which he did. When the Weimar literally handed him full emergency powers on a silver platter, he didn't even blink.
His military prowess was below average at best. There's very clear evidence to show that Hitler was not 'dumb' when it came to understanding military tactics and knowledge. He was just an idiot about it - thought his ideas were ground breaking and magically better because - ego reasons. He had all the right knowledge to be a logical tactician and strategist but with him, logic was out the window. Most of his military implements are just him measuring his dick. Super heavy tanks with poor logistics. Massive BBs like project 41 and 44 despite the effectiveness of Subs and the fact that the British navy is far larger. Unwillingness to push for actual advances in Technology like Jets until it was too late and he began panicking for 'wunderwaffe'. He has all the hallmarks of an extreme right individual. Dude was even anti-science. Looking back, it's of course a good thing that Hitler was pretty idiotic because yes, had of been a calculated malicious genius - the world would have become a very different place and probably not one I'd and I'm sure most of us, would stand for. The fact remains that Hitler DID have a chance to be a real true 'End of the World' force, but we were fortunate that he was just barely stupid enough to squander that opportunity. Thank the heavens for that.
@@Nurhaal I never said the man was a genius, i just just that some people really go overboard with how dumb he was. he must have had some competence to have risen to power in Germany during a very shaky time.
I do think people underestimate the capabilites of the British land forces in this situation too. People laugh at the idea of the home guard but considering the likely lack of german heavy equipment and organisation they would've been successful in slowing german advances and would've made rear areas unsafe.
However funny 'Dad's Army' was, it certainly did the real, historical, Home Guard no favours!
@@dovetonsturdee7033
I'm pretty sure the Home Guard did have some moments of just mucking about, like all Military formations, but I don't want to be on the receiving end of an angry 40 year old armed with a Rifle who is a Vet of WWI. That's a frightening thought.
@@youraveragescotsman7119 How they were to be used was the cause of a disagreement between Montgomery and Auchinleck in 1940. Auchinleck felt that they should be used as scouts for the regular army, as their local knowledge would be invaluable. Monty, on the other hand, appears to have wanted nothing to do with them.
@@dovetonsturdee7033
It's quite strange that Monty of all people would have refused their help. He was a veteran of WWI, was he not? Could he not see their immense value as both a defensive tool and useful for causing havoc on the supply line of an invading force?
Assuming said force makes it far enough inland to actually establish a supply line.
@@youraveragescotsman7119 He was appointed to command of V Corps, responsible for the defence of Hampshire & Dorset, in July, 1940. His immediate superior was Auchinleck, who was C-in-C Southern Command. At about that time, Monty began a long-running feud with the Auk, which seems to have continued for the rest of his life, and even resulted in the publishers of his autobiography having to include an apology in them for certain claims made by Monty which might have resulted in legal action.
I believe part of his doubt concerned the one undeniable weakness suffered by the Home Guard, their lack of mobility arising from their lack of transport. I think the Auk envisaged a more static defence in the event of a German landing, which would allow the RN to cut their supply lines and starve them to defeat, whereas Monty had a more mobile defence in mind.
Clearly, Monty had not been told about Corporal Jones' van, or the strategic importance of the Novelty Rock Emporium!
It the invasion had taken place, it would've made Dieppe look like a cake walk.
When people talk about Operation Sealion, they almost always confuse possibility and success. With just a few factors, Operation Sealion would have been a possibility. However, would it succeed......that answer is a big fat No. Three factors play into that answer: 1.) Logistics, 2.) German Surface Fleet(or lack there of), and 3.) Air superiority (German fighters were limited to just the southern part of the british Isles due to fuel range)
Edit: just want add that there was just too much to go wrong for operation sealion to even have a chance of success
"the British to make peace if France capitulated". The British often execute their commanders who avoid engagement. The Germans really didn't know their opponents.
TheScienceofnature where did you get that ridiculous information?
What you on about
HOI4 Players: "BUT iTs EASy IN Hoi4"
I think nazis in slow moving barges with not even a meter of freeboard crossing 23+ miles of open ocean is a Great idea!
9:05 good luck offloading tanks onto a hostile shore, from river barges, under fire, in autumn weather.
Good luck getting them past the Royal Navy's anti-invasion forces in the first place.
A bad idea? No no no no no. Sea Lion was a _joke._ I mean that in a very literal sense - bring up the possibility of the Nazis winning via Sea Lion and anyone who’s done any studying of it will probably burst out laughing.
Remember that the German Army leadership predicted that they would defeat the Soviet Union in 4 months. One thing they were really really good at was wishful thinking.
Germany's best hope of knocking Britain out of the war was before the Dunkirk evacuation, with the Cabinet revolt led by Lord Halifax - proposing to approach the Germans and ask about terms. It came down to Neville Chamberlain deciding the matter - he threw his support behind Churchill and continuing the war.
Yes I agree but Jodl was very serious in his delusion that it as a river crossing along a broad front
@@seanmac1793 Of course he was part of the German leadership who thought that USSR would be defeated in 4 months and that they only needed winter clothes for the few hundred thousand troops who would remain to occupy the place.
Just come across this. I saw an analysis by one the best war game models. There are a crucial couple of points. Whatever the Germans did the air force could move a bit north and still be there, the navy controlled the channel and could move and come back. They would not be able to sustainably cross the channel. This is my aside, with 'total' German dominance the Dunkirk evacuation still took place. If they couldn't stop so many leaving the beaches how on earth could they invade?
One of the dominant characteristics of Sealion enthusiasts is that, the less they know about the actual military situation in 1940, and in particular about the naval situation, the more certain they are about how successful Sealion 'would have' been.
Consider D-Day. Almost a million men, with air and sea superiority, using custom built sea-going landing craft, in the middle of summer, facing an enemy who considered this a secondary front, almost failed several times, some before they even saw the enemy.
Always better to overestimate the enemy strength. The Royal Navy was amongst the largest in the world, and whatever the admiral said , the Royal Navy with RAF Bomber support from North Britain & Northern Ireland, would have anhilated any attempted crossings and supply support attempted by Nazi and Italian forces. Furthermore the inferior slow Stukkas were easy targets for AA and coastal and Fighter Command . In the event the Stukkas provided a duck shoot for the Hurricaines & Spitfires .Well done- good analysis
Glad to see you read "The Most Dangerous Enemy". A book that completely dismantles the pervasive myths surrounding the Battle of Britain.
Realizing how outclassed they were by the British during the Battle of Britain, German high command instead chose the low hanging fruit of Operation Barbarosa, and invaded the Soviet Union.
Very good point
Sea Lion would have been a disaster. It took the Allies years & a lot of bitterly painful lessons to learn how to make successful invasions. The Wehrmacht had no “muscle memory” to run a invasion from the sea. The Germans had no specialized landing ships. To keep their troops supplied would have been a logistical nightmare. The Allies had over a year to plan the nuances for D-Day. It would a hard fought battle but it would have ended up being worse than Gallipoli for Germany.
I like how you just brush over the fact that the Home Fleet would have to sit wide open in the channel for 2 or 3 days until the Wermacht was out of supply. Sitting ducks.
The Home Fleet was not tasked with direct anti-invasion duties , so it was unlikely to be sat in the Channel at all .
They’d take some losses, but would be able to easily accomplish it. Stuka’s not particularly good at hitting moving targets
Taking hits if you get to drown hundreds of thousands of German soldiers like kittens is an attractive tradeoff.
The Home Fleet was based in Rosyth & Scapa Flow. It would only have entered the southern part of the North Sea if any German heavy ships did, and we now know that the Germans in September, 1940, only had one operational heavy ship, Hipper. The remainder were either under repair, or refitting.
You really don't need battleships, battlecruisers, and heavy cruisers to sink barges. Light cruisers, destroyers, and smaller auxiliaries are much more effective, which is why the RN had around 70 destroyers & cruisers within four hours' sailing time of Dover, together with several hundred smaller vessels, ranging from sloops, minesweepers, gunboats, armed trawlers and drifters to armed yachts. As to 'sitting ducks' the most obvious sitting ducks would have been the invasion barges attempting to cross with minimal protection during the day, and no protection at all at night.
And to add, if the Luftwaffe was the Imperial Japanese Navy you may be right, but the Luftwaffe was NOT the Imperial Japanese Navy. Few Luftwaffe pilots had training in anti shipping operations in 1940, though this changed with the formation of FG 10 in 1941, that is still almost a year away. Next, weapons, the Germans Aerial Torpedo had a failure rate of 45% in 1940 and they built less than 10 of the things a month. In addition the Luftwaffe did not posess a single Armour piercing bomb capable of endangering even a Revenge Classs battleship, let alone a Nelson or King George the Vth. In short, in 1940 the Luftwaffe simply did not have either the training or the weapons to deal with the RN Capital ships. Now, as I said, that DID change, but the fact remains that in 1940 they did not have that capability.
Finally, the elephant in the room, the submarines. In 1940 the German Submarine force numbered around 60 boats if I recall correctly. Problem is not the numbers though, problem is where they are operating. The Channel is a terrible place to operate submarines, its shallow, there is not enough depth for submarines to avoid depth charges effectively, and the water is usually well mixed, so no thermocline to confuse sonar. The narrowest part of the channel rarely reaches more than 30 metres in depth. Submarines tended to avoid the English Channel unless they had no choice, because it was such a dangerous place for them to operate.
German luftwaffe didn't even have a properly working air dropped torpedo (49% failure during tests), let alone mass production of them (max 6-8 units a month).
And they kept running out of stock pile of armour piercing bombs during the Norwegian campaign.
Furthermore Luftwaffe could only attack the RN, when the weather and time of day allowed it.
Night time or bad weather, would conceal the RN, from major or servere air attacks.
In short of all the worlds air forces in 1940, the Luftwaffe was the worst equipped and least expirenced/trained to engage Naval targets.
Hence why the formation of the X flieger corps in 1941, was made, specialising in attacks on ships at sea.
Don't have to say that twice
This video sums up literally every point I’ve been trying to tell people about Sea lion
I've always wondered if Sea Lion started out as a real idea, but as planners developed it they saw that it was untenable, but still talked it up to keep the British thinking defensively, planning to defend an invasion, rather than launch one.
Several comments. First, in order for the Germans to land any tanks or artillery, they planned to blow the sides out of the barges carrying them so as to land. That meant that those barges would make a one-way trip, and not be available for any follow-up transports or supply efforts. Then they also planned to sink some barges which mounted anti-aircraft guns on the British side of the Channel to supply anti-aircraft protection. See previous sentence as to how that would work.
Then you have the fact that the Channel widens significantly south of the Straits of Dover. This means that either the invasion fleet leaves in stages, with the forces having the longest distance to go leaving a day or two earlier than the ones near the Straits of Dover, thereby giving the whole plan away, two days early, or all of the invasion forces leave port at the same time, which means that the forces with the longer distances to travel are out there in the Channel playing sitting ducks.
The Luftwaffe really did not have any good anti-ship weapons in 1940. They finally resorted to buying aerial torpedoes from Italy, which actually were pretty good, but that was not until 1941, and required the Germans to swallow a lot of their pride.
Churchill also retained as an anti-invasion force 30 destroyers desperately needed for escort duties in the Atlantic to counter any landing attempt. As those ships were deployed in Portsmouth and further west, the Luftwaffe would have been very hard pressed to counter them and still maintain aerial control over the Straits of Dover.
Then there is the matter of supply. When it came to logistics, the German High Command were amateurs. If you think that is harsh, read about the logistic planning for Barbarossa,
Then, if you read the Halder Diaries, during the time when the German High Command should have been feverishly planning for Sea Lion, Halder was taking in the sights of France. Not a good take for the lower echelons to see.
Lastly, rather than compare Sea Lion to Operation Overlord, take a look at what happened during Operation Torch, the first large scale Allied Landing in the Atlantic. There were major problems getting the boat waves organized, currents carrying the landing craft to different beaches than planned, initial boat losses complicating getting supplies ashore, major problems with getting supplies cleared off the beach so that more could be landed (combat troops did not think that moving supplies were their job, consider the German Army for this behavior), and unexpected surf conditions. Then apply all of those to a greater degree to Sea Lion. The British would not have had to work too hard in making this a major catastrophe.
Thank you so much for mentioning right at the beginning that the German Navy losses taking Norway, over 30% of the German warships sunk or damaged meant Germany was unable to do any future naval operations outside of the Baltic Sea! In effect Nazis Germany had no offensive capabilities that involved/dependant on the German Navy!