Reaper Tip: Make a 3 Band Linear Phase Crossover
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- A useful Reaper trick to roll your own multi-band processing.
Music: 'Memories Evoked By A Smell' by Dan Worrall, from album 'Impostor Syndrome'.
Bandcamp link:
dan-worrall.ba...
If you like this type of content and you want to see it more often, consider signing up for Channel Membership: / @danworrall
You don't know how lucky I feel of being a reaper user
Reaper is a suprisingly able Daw
As I stated many times: it’s the Unix of the DAWs
Of course I know. 😁
I agree. But those but those suborn Cubase users are hard to convince. I was one not stubborn just a Cubase user. So glad I dumped Cubase.
Uuuuh guys, am i wrong thinking this could be implemented much more easily in Ableton ? I might miss something here, but it looks quite straightforward.
That phase flip trick was mega.
Gonna have a go at recreating that this weekend.
Wow, Dan, your Reaper tricks are mindblowing! So simple, yet so innovative.
Oooh, I'm going to try this trick with a bass guitar track soon to process the bass and mids separately! Should work really well.
Dan. You can't make a bad tutorial even if you tried. Your knowledge is daunting. Thanks for teaching us!
You just create the best audio tutorials on RUclips, period. Thanks.
possibly one of the greatest videos in the history of the internet.
Brilliant. This is a lovely demo of some of the REAPER characteristics I really appreciate.
Dan, I LOVE this thing for pre-mastering. I'm digging NI Transient Master on the Low Band crossing over at 100 or 150 Hz. Thank you!!!
I keep forgetting about ReaFir. Such an interesting tool.
This is going straight to my bag of tricks. Thank you Dan Worrall !
This tip sold me, thank you Dan. Great channel with great content
Thank you for this concept! I've been struggling to create a clean Xover by my own, bot now it works out pretty well (except reasonable delay). But I'm happy to see the real working thing.
Daaaaamn. I've been struggling with the idea of composing in Reaper (where I'm most comfortable) and mixing in Mixbus (which sounds really good) but then you keep showing me kick ass Reaper tricks, and I'm like, NOOOOO!!! but YESSSSSS!!! I freakin' love Reaper, and I'm glad I only spent $20 on Mixbus (thanks to the Holiday special they had this last December). Seriously though, I love this trick, and I'll be using the crap out of it now.
Dan, thanks for sharing your experiences. It is greatly appreciated. 👍🏾🙏🏾🔥⚛️☯️♾
This is really helpful. Thanks for sharing this!
Brilliant! Love the REAPER tips. Looking forward to more. REAPER is where creativity meets function. It can be a bit daunting, so it's great to have someone kindle the creative spark!
This
Was
AWESOME
Thank you Dan!
Quite refreshing technique!
Thank you for sharing this amazing and useful trick!!!
Always thankful for your tips! 🙂
Hello, Dan. From time to time I watch your videos one after another and make some notes of tips and tricks you share with us just in case I need them at hand. They are useful for the majority of your audience as is, but I could not find much use of them in my mixing sessions. Until today. I want to share my idea that resolved a long lasting problem I thought I would never resolve. A couple of years ago I made field 4-channel drum recording using portable zoom recorder and the overhead stereo record sucked for the wrong positioning and settings. I used all kinds of processing chains to toneshape it properly in many iterations using all and every kind of automated EQs and other common methods. I learnt the signal spectrum by heart but could not remove sharp resonances and terrible distortions I had obtained. This stereo signal is the main drum signal and crucial for the mix. The Idea I came to is as follows: remove resonant parts by syncing transients all over the spectrum to reach their climax at the same time (approximately at least) and thus to make the signal tighter but in an unusual way - by manipulating the latency of isolated bands. I used your crossover trick (but with different frequencies) and adjusted the delay by a few samples for each of 3 bands to sync the transients to my liking. This worked! Observation: when nulling the source vs the synced signal, the delta contains all and every problematic areas I used to cut out every time I equed it. Hope it's not a coincidence and may be of a great help to someone cheers! - PS: Drums sound better than sounded live and so naturally controlled without additional eqs 🙂 Thank you Dan Worrall! I would never split the spectrum properly but for your technique!
Hi i ended up here because of the new Waves subscription plans, i was in search Of how i would replace the convenient Studiorack and felt yet again happy to use reaper ! THx i'll add this crossover in my new mastering template !
Watching it for fourth time, maybe, (well I really don't remember), and I will like more of these tutorials. Thanks a lot for all your videos
My God that edit. I was recently wondering how to do this more efficiently and here it is and I'm over 2 years late xD
You are incredible!
I fucking love Dan Worrall
Dan, that track was awesome. Anywhere I can hear/buy online? That snare reverb was just plain naughty.
Thanks :) Not at the moment, I'll let you know when I release it somewhere...
Good work Dan, I’ll look forward to it.
Great tip too!
Brilliant, didn't know Reafir was a linear phase EQ ... Full support Dan !
I need to come back to this one and do this.
do you know how to make routing for mono source?
nice song man. Thanks for trick
Amazing tutorial. Thank you Dan.
Thank you ! This is pure gold !
Fantastic!
*how a man like this exists in this universe of chaos*
Excellent. Thanks!
That was neat (clever and useful).
Wow, awesome tutorial! Thanks Dan! As an ex pro tools user Reaper keeps surprising me everyday with it's functionality and routing features. There's just one thing that I miss from pro fools, multiple mono processing on a stereo buss. Does anyone know how to do it, I can't figure it out with the plugin pins. Thanks!
Just untick the left input and output pins on one instance, and the right IO pins on the other. Now you have separate instances for the left and right channels.
cool. thanks.
i mainly use this technique for "metal bass" sound, consistent low end with that grindy mids and present top end a la modern bass preamp pedals.
I know this topology(Midband as a result of Fullband-Lowpass-Hipass). Actually, you can use any kind of filter and obtain a crossover input and output signal cancellation as a result. The thing is that the Midband with conventional filters will always have reduced slopes. On top of that, only using 6dB/oct filters the Midband will have even response with no peaks.
However, this is not always a problem. If latency and CPU consumption is something that limits the use of linear phase filters, then yes - you can live without them. Although I do not deny that if separation and evenness of the bands is important, there is simply no other way than linear phase filters.
Thanks! Awesome!
Sweet! I've been using the 3-band joiner/splitter in the plugin suite for this purpose. And applying different kinds of processing to the separated bands using the same plugin strip, using the track fx routing. It sounds fine to me but soloing one of the bands is a hassle, this is so much more intuitive. :)
Quick question: Is there a reason you prefer to send the audio from a separate track, instead of keeping it on the same track as the crossover?
Convenience. Makes it easier to compare your home brew multiband setup to a multiband plugin for example.
You can flip polarity of the send in Fl Studio with the Patcher
For just the send, not the whole track? First one I've heard of other than Reaper if so: good stuff!
Yes just for send:)
200 IQ tricks.
This is awesome ! Thanks a lot Dan !
@Dan Worral another wonderfully informative video. Dan I love your work, glad I could be the first commenter for once
Sneaky!! I'll be trying that tomorrow for sure 👍 🐘
in speaker design this would be considered as a type of subtractive crossover. for this you can take any filter-order you like for the first frequency band (for example for the tweeter), and subtract it from the full range signal to get the matching second crossover-band (in this example for the midwoofer), and the result will always be linear phase.
but there is one problem with this type of crossover, and i think this will apply here, if only a little, as well.
in subtractive crossovers, if you choose anything else than 1st order/6db filters, there will be artifacts in form of weird dips and peaks in the frequency response, as well as a weird phase response in the band the subtraction is applied to. they will cancel out if played together, but when this frequency band is processed differently, those artifacts could be made audible (in speaker design they quickly get audible as soon as you leave the sweet spot even with no processing, because of the latency difference of the drivers lead to massive comb-filtering).
this will be a bit different when using linear phase filters. but linear phase filters also produce artifacts, namely preringing, which will be induced onto the midband that is created by subtraction. if nothing else is added, all the differences and the preringing will cancel out perfectly and the signal is restored to the original as demonstrated, but as soon as there is some separate processing going on, some of it will remain.
of course it remains debatable if this will create a problem in a real life scenario or not, maybe if you use even steeper cutoffs (f.ex. 48dB/oct. and higher) and place it even lower (causing more extensive ringing of the filter).
It's very different with linear phase filters: no weird filter shapes, it just works perfectly. You're correct there will be pre ringing, but this isn't normally a problem with sensible settings.
@@DanWorrall thanks for the answer, i guessed that was the case. but sorry to bother again, i've noticed something else:
subtracting a linear phase high cut is not entirely the same as using a linear phase low cut, and vice versa. as a result the crossover type you show in the video is asymmetric (please correct me if i'm wrong). i tried my best to recreate the scenario in cubase with fabfilter linear phase 24db/oct. linkwitz/riley filters (q of 0.707, or -6.02dB at cutoff freq.), and noticed the subtraction of a linear phase filter does not produce the same filter order. if i compare the subtracted signal in the analyzer to the true 24db filter, the response is approx. 6db less steep, so it would be a 18db crossover for the mid-band.
again, i can't tell if it is of relevance but i would be glad to hear your opinion on this, and if you did already know or if i maybe messed something up, or if the reFIR plugin is comparable to a fabfilter linear phase filter at all.
As a relative beginner, (though been using Reaper for most of my mixing experience) Can I check the purpose of this exercise..? Its so you can create your own multiband compression right? And, in the process, select your preferred compressor for each band. (Yah??)
If so, would it be reasonable to suggest you might use other fx on each band too? Not just for compression?
(By the way, I also use Saturn and, again as a novice, I just love the saturation: Seems you cant go wrong just playing with the wide range of presets )
Thanks a lot Dan. Loving your stuff as always
Yes you can use any of your full band compressors / limiters / saturators in a multiband configuration. (Saturn can do multiband saturation internally, but currently only with minimum phase crossover filters).
You can also use a single set of crossover filters to feed a chain of multiband effects. More efficient and elegant than splitting the signal and recombining it again for every multiband effect in the chain, like for example Saturn running in multiband mode followed by Pro-MB.
Yes you can use other types of effect as well, but don't expect them all to sound better as a result ;)
@@DanWorrall Thank you Dan. I am keen to try this method as a way of applying the most suitable compressors in a multi-band situation: And, whilst I see the emphasis on linear phase here, to be honest, I have a lot of general reading to do around phase before I can take full advantage.
Thanks again.
For Ableton users, try ELPHNT's free 'SPLTTR' Audio Rack setup :)
Great tutorial.You mentioned that you use subwoofer.Could you make a video about using subwoofer with your monitoring setup?
I don’t even use Reaper but Dan Worral=SUBSCRIBE
Amazing trick !
I like it more than Kenny )) Thank you!
Be careful, I noticed that on Reaper 6.73 if you set band gain in ReaFir to -96 dB as Dan shows, it actually goes only to -90 dB if you hadn't set the range beforehand. Looks like on Dan's version this isn't the case, and it just limits the view but not the gain.
Note that Saike recently published a linear phase FIR crossover version of the JS effect band splitter/joiner with other bice features likes GUI, steep filters (24db per octave) etc... check this thread :) forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220277 or the video tutorial m.ruclips.net/video/JU_7gIr5RTI/видео.html
Dang this needs more upvotes!
So if summing original audio with splitted full range gives us full signal cancellation does it mean there isn't any pre ringing? And how is this even possible if yes? How could there be no side effects at all?
The pre ringing from the low and high pass filters is inverted and cancelled out when creating the mid band. As soon as the relative gains for each band change the pre ringing will reappear. But it will be very subtle as I avoided super steep filter slopes.
Awesome very smart! 👍
Nice, I will try this in Cubase.
awesome!!! thx!!!!!!!!
Great trick dan, as always! Do you use the same xover frequencys or you fine tune them for each song?
It will depend on the mix and what I'm trying to achieve.
I use this technique before the main bus compressor; to still get the kick and snare pump. Is there any situation in which it is preferable to have it later?
If anyone wants to cheat and only need 2 bands: there is a JS plugin called *FFR splitter* that does exactly this (at least it nulled with the original audio). I wish I knew beforehand about it :( (I like to amp the higher frequency of my bass but keep the lower ones intact).
This is a great tip. I usually use Klevgrand Gaffel for this. This plugin allows to do frequency splits in a very user friendly manner. But I neither checked the crossing frequencies very well nor did I this insanely useful verification to see if I get the perfect null by mixing the inverse with the original. Really need to do this. For the fun of it I recreated this in Logic Pro, and as you indicated it's quite the hassle compared to the Reaper workflow.
Two questions remain, though:
1) would you generally see a benefit to enhancing this approach to 4 bands?
2) would you endorse putting put limiters into each band's chain?
1. Making a four band version would be a lot trickier. Whether its better or not depends on the audio you're processing. More bands means less intermodulation between bands, which could mean less undesirable pumping, or could mean less desirable glue effect.
2. I rarely use multiband limiting personally. But if it sounds good, go for it! Note that brick wall limiters will no longer be brick wall when only processing part of the signal (even if you have one on every band).
@@DanWorrall Re 1 I'd been asking because with the Gaffel plugin it's easy to have a 4 band setup. But I just checked and it the inverted sum of the Gaffel split does not cancel out the source. Maybe it's simply not linear. I'll ask Klevgrand support about this. But your approach is more fun anyway, and I think if you just treat the Mid band as a source of it's own you can recursively create any number of bands.
Re 2 I thanks for the hints. I'll just give it a go and see what happens.
Welp, that's me subscribed to another channel :)
Thank you for sharing that.
Wow! 😲 🤯
Excellent. So, I could use this approach to multiband for when it is necessary to make the low frequencies be centred mono?
You could, but there are simpler ways to achieve that.
Better than plugins with MB.
cool! but can we use some kind of vst utility for hosting plugs and devide bands? may be Bluecats Audio?
Yes that's an option. I like the ddmf one, but not tried Blue Cat.
@@DanWorrall Wouldn't that rely on the third-party wrapper being able to do the phase-flip-on-aux-send trick? I'm about to try Waves Studiorack, but not holding my breath.
@@danielpetersen2147 you could use a plugin to flip polarity, if the wrapper doesn't do it natively.
that phase flip trick was nifty af ^_^
and the song is just awesome, is it available somewhere?
Wow, this is great, far better than the stock band splitter, but, with that said, how would you use this method on 1 track instead of sending out to multipul channels, the reason i ask this, is that i tend to use Reaper for mastering and use Take FX As the inserts on each pre-master track within the session, i do use the stock 3band splitter joiner for doing the same thing as your doing, but its not linear, or at a 24db slope . Thanks
1. Is this same result achieved by using the JS splitter/Joiner in Reaper?
2. Why doesn’t it introduce time phase issues when you add the 3 compressors, presumably with 3 different amounts of latency? (Ie. Molot has huge latency) I’ve always been careful to add the same FX to each of the 3 tracks for fear of this.
1. Similar, but the JS splitter is not linear phase and iirc uses very gentle 6dB/Oct filters.
2. Because Reaper's plugin delay compensation works properly :)
Awesome vid Dan! Can you demonstrate this in Studio One 4.5.1
I didn't know how to split with Reafir. Thanks.
but.. is there something wrong/off with the default JS: 3/4/5 Band Splitters?
they may not be linear phase but i can't guarantee it
Same question :)
As far as I remember they're not linear phase, and use very gentle 6dB per octave filters. That's fine in some cases, but not all.
@@DanWorrall Thanks a lot Dan ! You're the man !
Linear phase when dry is all well and good, but how do you deal with phase cancellation or build-up resonances at around the crossover frequencies post-effects? It seems like this technique is best used when splitting into bounds where you'd cut at the boundary frequencies anyway. Otherwise, a dedicated multi-band compressor is probably going to be safer in most cases, as those are specifically designed to not cause issues at crossovers. It's cool to re-invent the wheel, gives more flexibility, but the cost is that you have to also deal with issues which existing plug-ins have already overcome.
So this is basically mastering a track? Very cool, thank you for the tips!! I save your videos to my pro audio folders, hopefully one day a studio :) Only a drummer with an interface right now
it turns all of your plugins into multi-band processors that can be mixed and matched with each other. not all but most. the ones that are phase coherent to begin with.
I followed your vid, the LOW and HIGH tracks are filtered fine, but for some reason the MID track doesn't behave as expected for canceling the "low" send (it cancels the highs just fine)
As you showed, I send to the MID track 3 streams:
full range (1-2)
high (3-4)
low (5-6)
When I flip the phase of the high send, it removes the highs perfectly from the full range, but with the low send I get -6db WITHOUT flipping the phase.. and +6db if I flip it :-\
This is the same outcome if instead of the low send in the MID track, I use the LOW track with the MID track... -6db WITHOUT flipping the phase.. and +6db if I flip it.
Just to check things, I tested with the MID track only outputting the low send, and the LOW track -> these cancel perfectly when phase is flipped.
Hello bro you Can make a tutorial on the mixing vocals rap with plugins reaper please 👏👏
In Ableton you can route any track into any other as you wish, which is pretty cool, so I'll play around and try to recreate such a simple setup in ableton, and share the results if you wish :)
Please do share it, I'm not sure I can recreate it
@@mladenristic1 hi, I made it
you will need to do it without using Dan's method but using one which applies two 12db/oct EQ in series, cool thing in live is that with an audio effect rack you can process multiband without any sends, all in the same channel, I will try my best to explain
1. you need to insert an audio effect rack on the track you will split in multiband, and you need to create 3 chains, one for lows, one for mids, one for highs
2. on the low chain you need to put a low pass EQ, 12db/oct, lets say at 200khz, and them copy it, you need to copy the EQ, have two, so it is in series, two bands in the same EQ or a 24db/oct for example will not work properly
3. on the mid chain you need to put a bandpass, 12db/oct, 200khz < and lets say 5000hz >, again, copy this EQ, needs to be two, needs to be in series
4. on the high chain, guess what, a high pass EQ, 12db/oct, in our example in 5000hz, then double it so you have two EQ working in series
if you try to copy this channel, delete the audio effect rack and flip the phase, if the EQs were the proq3 with linear phase "low", floor noise should be < -60db which I guess it can be considered to be nulling, linear phase "max" it nulls completely, which is the prove it worked perfectly
hope this helps
Probably similar in other DAWs. In Bitwig you simply put a tool in Low/Mid/High multiband FX device and then route to the mixer how you need or just add fx chain off each split.
Is it possible to do a 6 band split with this technique? To work similarly to Blue Cat's MB-7 Mixer
For us non Reaper users, splitting the bands using Pro-MB in linear phase has the same result, right?
Also, unrelated to this specifically, but regarding phase. Am I correct in thinking you can't actually hear phase shift if you're processing a single track or group? And that it only makes a difference once it is mixed back with other elements?
Thank you for your videos!
Interesting how when testing with a mastered song, it's not clipping by itself, but when split into 3 bands the mid band is clipping. All the sends and faders are at unity of course, and they do null out.
Thank you very much :)
This particular thing when studio one is more comfortable.
Actually I thought that ReaFIR is linear phase only if you tick Reduce Artifacts at the bottom?
I am a Nuendo user and new to Reaper. This looks great. Is there a place I can download a TEMPLATE for this 3 Band Linear Phase Crossover?
Hell yeah!!! i LOVE YOU!!!!
There will be an inherent problem with this setup in that any signal processing on the signals will introduce harmonics which will make upward overlap. To avoid this, I would recommend duplicating the EQ setup at the end of each track.
I realized this decades ago while attempting to run a crossover with bass to use different signal chains for lows and highs.
I don't think adding harmonics is a problem. Indeed, with a mb distortion setup its precisely the point: you get to add more harmonics with less intermodulation. You could break the setup with processing that introduces phase shift however, the easy solution being: introduce the same phase shift for all bands.
@Dan Worrall How do you achieve something like this in Nuendo or Cubase? Is it even possible to split a channel into different frequency components like this? Please make a video on this if it is possible.
Excellent info. Can someone tell how we can split an incoming live stereo (e.g from a music player) into left / right tracks before applying this trick on right and left signal separately. The idea is to send out the result into multiple drivers.
Speaker crossovers usually use Linkwitz Riley filters rather than linear phase. PA system controllers can do that, plus EQ, limiting, time alignment etc.
I heard a master engineer say that Waves Linear Multiband makes a small bump above the crossover. But when I flip the phase it cancels out with the original. 1. Is the engineer wrong? 2. If that's not the case... does this system with reaFIR avoid those bumps?
What are those songs you're using at the background? :o
Just me having fun. Not released anywhere yet...
Can this be done with (SigMod - NUGEN Audio) in other DAWs???
I am trying to set a 4 band split in Ableton for weeks now that nulls perfectly ! Can anyone help
Why not for example using fab filter mb first determing the frequiencies crossover than soloing low end only than duplicate solo mid band only than duplicate solo high end only in linear phase mode would this work same as the trick ilustrated in this video?
Yes
Much Like!
This is brilliant. Question - is there a way to use the same approach to get a 4 or 5 band crossover?
(I suppose one could take the mid band from this approach and then further split it into 3, giving 5...?)
Probably yes, but I think it will quickly get very complex and confusing.
@@DanWorrall I think you may be right about that, but it's a fun thought experiment!
Also - a sincere thank you for all the content you post - I have yet to come across anything as insightful, and, for lack of a better word, inspiring, in this area.
would it not be useful to add both of the filters to FX parameters ini the TCP? so one is able to change the split position without having to open the FX
this is great btw!!!
It would, but I think you would need a different linear phase filter plugin: there's no simple "cutoff" parameter with this method.
@@DanWorrall sry, i think i didn't get it at first. makes sense, seeing how you enter the values. as long as it's possible to have control over where the splits are, it prob doesnt matter
again, thanks for this! looking forward to more reaper stuff, if you ever get around to it again
I was trying to keep this all native Reaper. But if you used something like Pro-Q3 to do the filtering you could do as you suggest.
@@DanWorrall will absolutely look into this. thanks again!
I tried duplicating this as I wanted to go to 5 bands. but it is not nulling.
Five bands is a big more complicated. This trick is 3 bands max I think.
Is this only possible in reaper or is it possible in other DAWs such as Logic, Pro Tools, or Ableton?
As far as I'm aware none of the other DAWs allow you to flip the phase for an aux send. So you can probably achieve the same thing, but with a more complex routing setup.
where can we find dip course ? or when ? :)