I just recently got a Baldwin D 9ft. with a brand new Renner action. Hammers need a bit of work, I re-bushed the keys and regulated the action. Yours looks like the cabinet is in better condition but I bet I paid lost less than you did. I think. Mine really should have new strings but as is not bad. Good luck with your upcoming work. Don
Hi Don, I got mine for $8900 but really about $10K w the move. The main things I’ve done: New Hellerbass bass strings New damper felt (might have helped w the noise) New Ronsen Weickert felt hammers Rebushed the keys After replacing a broken string I realized the whole thing really could use a restringing. I did a few other test replacements as well. They all sounded a good deal better. Might be the case with yours as well. What’s its current state? Have you sold it?
Thank you! I really meant it when said that I may not be able to improve on the “soul” of the Chickering, only the sustain, power, and consistency. I’m relieved to have sold it to an organization here in town so I’ll get to see/hear it occasionally.
I know what you mean. Fortunately, the Chickering will be staying in town, and the organization that bought it wants me to care for it. I'll be staying in touch. :)
I just sold my concert Chickering and I regret it very much, it was absolutely gorgeous. Check the whippens and make sure there not too taunt, makes a huge difference when they are adjusted properly. guess it's too late now.
I can relate a bit to your regret. The Baldwin has been a hard nut to crack. I've come to realize that it will need to be restrung to truly surpass the Chickering. But I still believe it had more performance potential as well as resale potential. It has been a long road though and there really was something special about the Chickering sound.
Another thing. By now you probably have the new bass strings on. I'd be very surprised if you haven't discovered that the bass has an incredible bronze tone, perfectly uniform, and that the tone won't break no matter how overplayed it is. A real Baldwin asset. My 1934 Baldwin F has the same trait.
Being over 60 years newer the Baldwin should be a more stable instrument. It was used for accompaniment for a choir rather than solo work. The hammers are gone. It must have been used a great deal. It will sound entirely different with new ones. Much more mellow. Voicing it will be a challenge. I loved the Chickering. Liberace would love the Baldwin.
What a treasure to have found. I recently learned that the "SD-6" was made in both equal and non equal speaking lengths in that first Capo D'Astro Bar section. The design was meant to assist in projection in that that typically weaker yet vital soprano section in larger spaces - so that clash of harmonics cuts through enemies such as large, deader halls filled with people and full symphonic orchestras in massive thick music where the piano has little chance. I view this system much the way a pipe organ is "spiced up" through its mixture stops. I've actually come to love that sound of the "turbo-treble" - though, admittedly, it is an acquired taste. I feel too, it actually sustains longer - whether this is true or an illusion may be another matter. However, its demise may very well have pushed through by such settings as the very one you have - the recording studio; where I suspect people could not abide by these wilder sonic ways, likely more in one's face than on a stage. Still, I hope you might keep this piano in its original form, for now, as it was created, and perhaps try lighter weight Ronsen Weickert felt hammers and voicing techniques which might make you a convert before the eventual neutering of this section by straightening the bridge. In the end though, both treble systems have their place. By the way, did you try twisting some of the iron wound strings? Lately, I have had Heller Bass make me new iron wounds for this area in my restorations. Congratulations on finding this treasure! Baldwin; the most underrated and oft-dismissed concert pianos. Thankfully, there are pianists and piano lovers that know the musical value of these majestic instruments.
Majestic is a great word for these Baldwin concert grands! How interesting to know the unequal "turbo-treble" (love it!) was an option. I have seen a few without it and assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the piano had been reworked. I will certainly remain open-minded about it during what will be at least a one-year trial of the piano the way it its. I wish I knew Hellerbass made iron-wound strings! I've already put in my order with them and I believe they are ready to ship. Do you have any experience with them wearing out more quickly? I've just caught on to a few of your videos and have watched a few. So far I've appreciated the condition you get these rare Chickerings to be in, the recording quality, and the drop-dead amazing pianists you have at your disposal. Well done! I've sold my 1924 Chickering buy would have reached out to you initially had I known about you. Do you have an opinion of those later models? I wince when I think of what you must have thought about my alterations. Maybe leave that part out. :)
The major problem is that every key is graded and weighted from the key (to which the jack is attached!) up to the individual springs of each underhammer, the size, shape, and weight of each shank AND hammer-head! Plus the shanks have a tack-headed screw that sits at a specific angle and position in relation to the underhammer to throw the hammer and adjust its relative height just north of where the knuckle would be. The shanks themselves have the fixed pin knuckle and the flanges have the two bushed prongs, The reverse of all modern hammers and flanges. I haven't seen a precedent for restoring this 'Improved Brown Action' anywhere
Right?? I've sent measurements off to Hellerbass in Germany for some premium bass strings. In a few weeks I'll shoot a video of the before/after. #oldschoolsubwoofer
Brother Ben - Mikey Likey! If that high treble is anything to go by, it's already a nudge up against the Chickering. Great commentary as always. Thanks both for the truth and the giggles.
“Mikey Likey”. 😂 Always good to have you weigh in! And I agree about the high treble indicating a nice leveling up for me and the studio. I would also say that the bottom six or so notes hint at greatness as well. Now to bridge the gap!
Interesting re the steel-wrapped strings. Did they go out of favour at some point. I've worked on an 1880s(?) Chickering 106 that had them, as does my 1833(??) Viennese square. I've noticed they seem extra-prone to breakage. Wonder if it's something to do with the metallurgy. There seem to be very few sources of replacements today...
Yeah, I was definitely surprised to see steel in the bass! I think I said this in the video; from what I’ve heard, though they had the virtue of a smoother transition to unwound strings they were prone to going dead. I wonder if Hellerbass does steel wound strings. Maybe worth an inquiry if you were interested. I’m going to check to see if you have any videos on that 1880s Chickering!
@@insidepianos I think you need to access my Chickering vids via my Music playlist. They're not great...even the final tuning I did was still pretty poor, and the playing is even poorer...
Great find! It has a lot of potential. I hope you could try the new NY Steinway hammers. They changed their hammers since 2019, I think. Good luck with your repair.
I agree that New Steinway hammers are not a bad thought for this instrument. However, they’ve become sort of a “controlled substance” in that Steinway has drastically limited their availability. Paired with Steinway‘a claim that only Steinways w genuine Steinway parts are the real deal it gives them a leg up against all the rebuilders out there restoring used Steinways. I’ve decided to go with Ronsen Weickert felt hammers which is what I have on my Chickering. (Perhaps you’ve checked out that video.) They are on the softer side and are meant to harken back to the classic American sound of the early 20th century. Thanks for watching!
The hammers tended to get harder into the SD-10 era. I recently heard that Del Fandrich (who did some designing for them) was frustrated that the hammer press was too hot. And for some of this era they used Renner, which are great hammers but quite hard. All this to say that I think Baldwin could have showcased their flagship pianos better throughout the 80s and 90s with softer hammers. My latest piano in the showroom is a Baldwin R from 1979. Adjusting for size, it’s the most gorgeous piano I have ever produced. I used Bacon felt hammers by Ronsen-their softest-and very conservatively and gradually hardened them just to the point of having a full dynamic range, no further. I have to think that Baldwin would have given Steinway a serious run for their money had they upped their hammer game. This piano will soon be featured in a video or two.
That’s a good follow up. I don’t know if there was a qualitative difference between the Renner hammers supplied to let 20th century Baldwins and those supplied to Hamburg Steinway. Also, Renner hammers have to be very skillfully needled to achieve great results. I’m not casting aspersions towards Baldwin but I do feel that the Steinway folks in Hamburg rrrreally know what their doing. And maybe they have done a better job matching the scale and belly construction to the potency of the Renner hammer. I’ll be voicing an SD-10 from around 1980 in the coming weeks. Maybe I’ll have more insight after that.
Amazing news! I had a late 60s Baldwin concert grand, it was an SD-10 (with hitch pins) but it was a remarkable instrument and the build quality was amazing. Will you be going with Ronsen Weickert hammers again here? Out of curiosity are the keys the original ivories? Looking forward to following this project!
Russ! Nice to have you along for the ride. I've decided on Ronsen Bacon felt for this one. They're softer than Weickert and have lovely bloom and sustain. Given that this burly piano is going into a 20'X24' studio I want to make sure it won't overwhelm the space and can "play well with others". I've used them for my last 2 hammer jobs and the only negative I might be able to muster is that they're too sweet. They're not as popular as Weickert but several technicians I really admire prefer them and I've been pleased so far. Plastic keytops, many scarred for life by whomever was going at it in church--deep grooves. Sounds like you had a lovely SD-10. I really meant it when I said that you could find some awesome ones post-1965.
I'll be very interested to see how this goes. I have two minor suggestions: for the loose bass tuning pins you might try a very minimal amount of water-thin CA glue (I prefer the Loctite brand with the long thin spout, as being very easy to apply accurately, and also in such a small quantity that it is easy to use fresh.) A very few drops, wait five minutes, gingerly try to tune. Sometimes a second dose (two or three drops) will achieve enough friction for tuning if the first one didn't. The reasoning being, if you go up in pin size you are risking spreading cracks, and also the tuning is different due to the larger pin diameter. Banging a tuning pin into an already compromised pinblock is a pretty violent thing to do when a very little bit of CA often will achieve what is needed. The other thing which I've noted is the very large very heavy Baldwin music desk. Not having any perforations in it means that a pianist using it cannot properly hear the sound, compared to playing without the music desk or playing with one which has holes in it or is smaller and lighter. I noted this when a duo piano team played a concert, with a 1971 SD-10 which had gradually turned into a very loved and enjoyed piano, paired with a 2005 Steinway D. The pianist playing the Baldwin complained that balance wasn't good, he wasn't loud enough, when anyone in the house could tell it was perfect. I haven't had the nerve to cut holes in it, (belongs to the hall, not me, anyway), but if it were my piano in a recording studio I'd replace that panel without something lighter, thinner, and had some openings in it -- but leaving a closed place where someone might want to write on music. I believe this is one reason that the 19th century Steinways had fretwork music desk panels.
Susan, you are DEAD ON about the music rack! I am already planning in my mind the type of perforations I want to create. I've seen circular ones on a Steinway which I assume were done that way to avoid catching pages. As you say, the player has a distorted sense of what they are doing and doesn't get to enjoy the beauty of the instrument. Perhaps I should try the CA method. I take your point about the violence done to an already compromised block by sizing up the pins. This may be less of an issue as I hope to sooner than later replace that. Have you found the pins to be jumpy after using CA glue? I assume you are using ultra thin glue as opposed to thinning it yourself? Regarding your other post, the bass is indeed a glorious thing. I've reworked my schedule in hopes of getting back to posting more content. You should be able to hear soon enough for yourself! Thanks for your interest!
@@insidepianos Thanks so much for your reply! Always nice to know that you agree with some of what I said. Yes, I've sometimes known tuning pins treated with CA to be jumpy, which is another reason to start small and use as little as possible. But most will make a little cracking sound the first time they are moved after the glue has set, but then tune all right. If you are going to replace the pinblock later, no reason to avoid using CA on the old one. I'm eager to hear the bass after you have worked on it. I really enjoy your videos. Perhaps you could look at various European music desks to see what forms of perforation they have chosen. You could choose an appearance which is pleasing, though it certainly won't look like a conventional Baldwin after that.
Congratulations on the Baldwin. A little surprising the pitch was off that much. Most churches have their pianos tuned to A-440 once or twice a year...especially if it is played with other instruments like an Organ.
Good point about the organ. I'm wondering if they didn't have one or never played piano and organ at the same time. The second highest string is broken. My theory: an aural tuner kept going ever sharper as they lost their hearing. I've seen it before.
@@insidepianos I know that planning, recording, editing, and publishing videos is quite a task in addition to the task of working on the mechanics of the piano too -- but I still would love to have some updates on this SD-6! Also, your audio recording quality is really something to be super proud of!!!
Thanks for the kind words and the encouragement. I just moved my operations to an actual shop and have trimmed down other activities. Fingers crossed that I can finally get some videos out at a somewhat regular pace. As a bit of a teaser, I’ve realized that I will need to restring the SD-6 to be satisfied with the sound. This would include attempting to solve some excessive downbearing issues as well. That said, the instrument has still come a long way.
Whaaaaa? After all that work? I totally understand though. I have the same dilemma with my 109 in terms of having to remove the plate to really restore it completely.
Yes, all the above. Sometimes it's worth it, though, to go all in, particularly if you're looking to keep the instrument long term. That 109 is a special one!
@@insidepianos Oh, it's definitely worth it with the 109. I've decided to replace the entire action with WNG. If I'm going to do all that, I figure I may as well go the whole 9 yards and take off the plate too. You've given me an idea for having a piano to play while I restore it, though. I saw a beautiful little 6' Baldwin in pristine shape that may fit the bill! Thanks again for all your great videos! Get some sleep. You remind me of myself up all night obsessing! lol
I just attended a WNG intro course via Zoom last night. They really are thoughtful designers who have given us a lot of flexibility. I think that's a good move on your part. Re: the Baldwin, I firmly believe Baldwins to be one of the best options for a used piano these days. One of their failings is not using great hammers. But the build quality and design is excellent. Put together people can sometimes not realize how good the instrument actually is and will sell it inexpensively. Pop a set of great hammers on there and you have something approximating the quality of a Steinway. For you, too, this would be a great contrasting piano to your Chickering. They will offer very different experiences/strengths. You may know that I'm selling my 6'3" Baldwin. Its case is...different and maybe you're set on the Baldwin you described. But if you're curious it's on my website insidepianos.com.
@@insidepianos I wish I'd known about that seminar. Your Baldwin is beautiful and the price is very attractive for all the work you've done but yeah... the colour isn't my taste. The Baldwin I was looking at sold in a day! Looking at 6' 1921... Chickering!
PS After consulting Jim Iallegio, I found that I can't use the WNG action on the 109. There are way too many technical problems starting with the flared keys and balance rail being in the wrong place. So, I'm now into a complete restoration of the original Brown action which I've been working at anyway for the past 3 months. The 1921 action can be replaced as you know, so I think I may do that.
This is really relatable on all points :) I'm in a similar process on a couple instruments as an obsessive hobbyist non-professional. I have an SF-10 in much worse starting condition that i am slowly bringing up to its incredible potential. With some help ofc, esp. from the internet. Have you seen Regi Hedahl's RUclips videos? His choice of hammer if i remember is the Ronsen for 7-9 ft Baldwins. As much as i enjoyed your terrific work on the Chickering, i hear great things in this piano too (so much potential). Can't wait for your updates over the next years!! Congrats
Hey there! You sound like a kindred spirit. I am familiar with Regi and have spoken with him on occasion. He uses the Ronsen Bacon felt hammers and gets a nice result. He’s also an advocate for light hammer, opting for their 14lb hammer where 16lb felt is more conventional for an SF10. One lingering question if have is that the tone of his pianos is super sweet but I’ve never heard him play big rep on them. Do they roar when needed? I don’t know. I’m soon to release an update on my Baldwin having worked on it for a year. I tried Ronsen Weickert felt (14lb) at first but I think they were a bad set. I swapped them for Abel “Special Pressing” hammers available through Pianotek Supply. They are really well suited, however they require a lot of voicing skill to bring about a great result. Oh, I should add that I have used Bacon felt twice on two pianos in the 5’ range and LOVED the result. They required very little voicing. I’ve been afraid to try them on a large piano. Hope this helps. If nothing else just know that I relate to the obsession. :-)
@@insidepianos Yep, definitely a kindred spirit :)) I find slightly lighter hammers are almost always better for the action feel in terms of balancing that response expectation vs the leverage/ratio (i'm not technical haha), for more sensitive players at least, and modern builds almost always start out with heavier hammers unless the customer requests otherwise in a custom build. I have read many posts by Del Fandrich on piano discussion forums re action ratios, and maybe only understand a little over half of it ;) In terms of power and big sound dynamic range with the Ronsen Bacon hammers, I also never heard Regi really blast out his triple fortes lol, however from personal experience, i would say those hammers are meant to stay in the sweeter mellower side, so if you don't want to use chemical hardeners on a new set, i would try small adjustments in regulation instead, for example increasing blow dist and letoff just slightly for more resilient strikes, maybe adding a little range in the mezzo to forte and some punch without the harshness. 7- & 9-foot Baldwins have lots of dynamic range and bass depth for me so I wouldn't want to get too rigid or weighty with the hammers personally (the high treble is where I would go more substantial where possible - even without front duplex there's a nice colourful zing to bring out but it can easily get a little too strident or quiet compared to the rest for sure). I think even the most experienced voicers still have to trial and error it quite a bit due to personal preference and differences with each instrument & humidity in the room. I enjoy your playing btw! You have good touch 😊
I would have no aversion to hardening Bacon felt hammers if it worked. :-) You raise good points about bringing aspects of regulation to bear on the tone. Have you made a decision on the hammers you intend to use? I’ll be hanging a set of those Abels on an SF10 this summer and can let you know how it goes.
@@insidepianos I was contemplating which hammer myself as that would be the next step, though i probably have too much on my plate in terms of ongoing projects. My local tech is due to take an assessment in the Summer & will help me decide on priorities. Generally preferring a sweeter gentler sound (Regi's Baldwin videos) I still would not mind using the Abels and adjusting my playing in order to have more tonal options. I have heard Abel can be versatile & longer wearing from being comparably denser out of the factory, and i do think when a more percussive/dynamic sound is desired (shosta/prokofiev/bartok) that contrast is hard to get from an overly voiced down piano, or one with a really sweet character haha. One opinion i have read a lot is many techs believe the hammer choice should match the intended tonal palette of the piano's design to best showcase the instruments. I'm not sure what that would have been for the SD6/10 & SF.. they were quite popular for venues so i imagine quite a bit of variation from different customers. For hammers it is easier to start from harder and go softer, bouncier to less bouncy right? You have so much more experience and expertise than me, & most technicians where I'm located, so I am very curious how the abels turn out on that Baldwin SF! Btw I found giving an extra 8th of an inch to the letoff made for a much nicer attack - big difference in sound all else being equal. I'm a really touch-sensitive player so trading off those compromises in feel is a big deal for me XD
@@Li-yt7zh In terms of which is easier, starting with a hard or soft hammer, I think it comes down to which you have the greatest experience with. Steinway (US) is in the minority, though, with their practice of starting soft. Both types offer tones of flexibility. Voice-up hammers probably take less of a physical toll. Placing liquid is easier than needling cushion into a set of Renners, for example. Renner was the maker for Baldwin, at least in some eras. So, if we follow the advice of replicating the originals that, supposedly, the piano was designed for, we'd go with Abel or Renner, I'd say. But I'm not a total purist. I absolutely loved the sound the Bacons yielded on that small Baldwin I believe I mentioned. As always, good luck!
I understand everyone has their reasons, but for an instrument like your old chickering, I don't see how resale value is really a priority. the value of a piano for recording and studio work is in how it plays and sounds, not how much money u can sell it for. I feel the same way about a personal instrument. I own an old Knabe which will never have the resale value of a steinway or baldwin, but i like the way it plays and sounds just as much and being so old, it has a lot of character that newer, more valuable pianos will never have.
I understand and respect where you’re coming from. Period. (And congratulations on your classic Knabe!) In my case, though I loved much of the Chickering, I was afraid that it would never have the treble I wanted. The only added measure I could have taken aside from serious re-engineering was to use epoxy to stiffen the board (requiring removing the plate). Maybe it would have worked but especially since the Chickering lacks a front duplex it’s very possible it wouldn’t have. I’d then be in the position of having to sell it. Looking back, I can see that in the mix was simply the desire to climb another mountain and see what I would find at the top. The ‘62 Baldwin had its plate out in August receiving work beyond what the Chickering got. I want to freshen up the hammers but I’ll get a video out before years’ end. I’ll be curious to get people’s reactions to this protracted journey of mine.
Your get pedal noise on the recording at times. Not sure what it might needs but listen. Maybe your just letting off the pedal too fast. My Baldwin F which is for sale does the same. Haven't check my Baldwin D to see if it does the same.
At this point the spring in the damper pedal was missing making it super light and hard to control. Maybe it squeaked too. Remember, this was just as the piano came in. Fixing pedal noise was the least of my worries.
Strong Klavier. Impressive. Mics on the recording? Preamp(s)? Brand in mind for hammers? Hammer replacement in first round of refurbishung? Will you replace the hammers yourself? Ok, lots of questions )), fyi my answers, yes I finaly got a hammer company to sell me hammers (through a licensed technician of course) for my Klavier.... Abel, two sets bored, soft and medium, will install them myself, will do an install of a few without glue to choose which set to start with, soft and medium no nature filz.
Congratulations on finally getting hammers, from Abel, no less! ! I’ll be curious which you go with. Mics-AEA N8s in a Blumlein pattern as described in my Recording Classical Piano Part 2. Preamps-Focusrite ISA828. I’m looking to put Ronsen Bacon felt hammers on the Baldwin in my first round. The current hammers have ZERO life left in them. The bacon felt hammers have lovely bloom and due to their softness will keep the volume from overpowering. As you say, it is a strong Klavier! (I’ll hang them myself.)
@@insidepianos awesome plan. Thanks for the detail. It's all so interesting. I am very happy to hear that you will install the new hammers yourself. After all it's a large component of your tone, as you mentioned. I am using a Canadian fish glue so easy to tack a hammer in place to test alternate tone (intonation). I am so happy for us. I will update.
Canadian fish glue. Interesting. Do you have to heat it? I'm happy for you, but don't be too happy for me. The hammers I've chosen are on back order, possibly for weeks!! It will be a tough wait for me. In the meantime I'm working on the keys--tons of side to side. Rebushing is in order.
Thanks so much, Thomas. Coincidentally my friend John who I mention on the show sometimes mentioned using fish glue on the last set of hammers he installed. He liked it!
Hoi Ben, i am not a piano technician but i think you are right about your Baldwin. See this video at minute 8:30. m.ruclips.net/video/vgecQ1uytSA/видео.html Bechstein used the almost the same sort of stringing more then 100 years ago. And the color is so harmonicly rich! Good luck with the rebuilding.
Very, very interesting. I’ve definitely seen Steinways from that period with that unequal speaking length the entire treble bridge as with this Bechstein. It seems Baldwin is the last major company to do this-up through 1964. I’ll be very interested to live with this aspect of the piano during this initial stage, which won’t involve and reworking of the bridge, and hear what I think of it. Part of my concern is that it’s not consistent, but is bordered by parallel-notched sections. We’ll see... Thanks for watching and for the video link. I hope to receive bass strings this week. Once installed, I’ll do video #2 of the Baldwin.
I am curious what you deside with the bridge. Mybe the inconsistency gives the piano more overtones, soul, personality and richness. Or it could be less focused when tuned not right. I have a blind tuner that can make almost every piano sing. But your kind personality is the greatest gift of your studio, not your piano :-). So whatever you deside it will turn out well. Sorry for my bad English I am flemish. Good luck with your presious and expensive Heller Bass strings. The bass of your piano sounds awesome! Keep up the good videos. Greatings from Belgium
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I just recently got a Baldwin D 9ft. with a brand new Renner action. Hammers need a bit of work, I re-bushed the keys and regulated the action. Yours looks like the cabinet is in better condition but I bet I paid lost less than you did. I think. Mine really should have new strings but as is not bad. Good luck with your upcoming work. Don
Hi Don, I got mine for $8900 but really about $10K w the move.
The main things I’ve done:
New Hellerbass bass strings
New damper felt (might have helped w the noise)
New Ronsen Weickert felt hammers
Rebushed the keys
After replacing a broken string I realized the whole thing really could use a restringing. I did a few other test replacements as well. They all sounded a good deal better. Might be the case with yours as well.
What’s its current state? Have you sold it?
Your Chickering was a beautiful piano! I'm looking forward to seeing updates on your new Baldwin.
Thank you! I really meant it when said that I may not be able to improve on the “soul” of the Chickering, only the sustain, power, and consistency. I’m relieved to have sold it to an organization here in town so I’ll get to see/hear it occasionally.
I wonder why some technician didn’t replace the hammers a long time ago. They are completely shot.
Your passion for the instrument is contagious! Just watch out. I don’t know any guitarist that doesn’t regret the sale of at least one 🎸 🤪
I know what you mean. Fortunately, the Chickering will be staying in town, and the organization that bought it wants me to care for it. I'll be staying in touch. :)
I just sold my concert Chickering and I regret it very much, it was absolutely gorgeous. Check the whippens and make sure there not too taunt, makes a huge difference when they are adjusted properly. guess it's too late now.
I can relate a bit to your regret. The Baldwin has been a hard nut to crack. I've come to realize that it will need to be restrung to truly surpass the Chickering. But I still believe it had more performance potential as well as resale potential. It has been a long road though and there really was something special about the Chickering sound.
Another thing. By now you probably have the new bass strings on. I'd be very surprised if you haven't discovered that the bass has an incredible bronze tone, perfectly uniform, and that the tone won't break no matter how overplayed it is. A real Baldwin asset. My 1934 Baldwin F has the same trait.
Being over 60 years newer the Baldwin should be a more stable instrument. It was used for accompaniment for a choir rather than solo work. The hammers are gone. It must have been used a great deal. It will sound entirely different with new ones. Much more mellow. Voicing it will be a challenge. I loved the Chickering. Liberace would love the Baldwin.
What a treasure to have found. I recently learned that the "SD-6" was made in both equal and non equal speaking lengths in that first Capo D'Astro Bar section. The design was meant to assist in projection in that that typically weaker yet vital soprano section in larger spaces - so that clash of harmonics cuts through enemies such as large, deader halls filled with people and full symphonic orchestras in massive thick music where the piano has little chance. I view this system much the way a pipe organ is "spiced up" through its mixture stops. I've actually come to love that sound of the "turbo-treble" - though, admittedly, it is an acquired taste. I feel too, it actually sustains longer - whether this is true or an illusion may be another matter. However, its demise may very well have pushed through by such settings as the very one you have - the recording studio; where I suspect people could not abide by these wilder sonic ways, likely more in one's face than on a stage. Still, I hope you might keep this piano in its original form, for now, as it was created, and perhaps try lighter weight Ronsen Weickert felt hammers and voicing techniques which might make you a convert before the eventual neutering of this section by straightening the bridge. In the end though, both treble systems have their place. By the way, did you try twisting some of the iron wound strings? Lately, I have had Heller Bass make me new iron wounds for this area in my restorations. Congratulations on finding this treasure! Baldwin; the most underrated and oft-dismissed concert pianos. Thankfully, there are pianists and piano lovers that know the musical value of these majestic instruments.
Majestic is a great word for these Baldwin concert grands! How interesting to know the unequal "turbo-treble" (love it!) was an option. I have seen a few without it and assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the piano had been reworked.
I will certainly remain open-minded about it during what will be at least a one-year trial of the piano the way it its.
I wish I knew Hellerbass made iron-wound strings! I've already put in my order with them and I believe they are ready to ship. Do you have any experience with them wearing out more quickly?
I've just caught on to a few of your videos and have watched a few. So far I've appreciated the condition you get these rare Chickerings to be in, the recording quality, and the drop-dead amazing pianists you have at your disposal. Well done!
I've sold my 1924 Chickering buy would have reached out to you initially had I known about you. Do you have an opinion of those later models? I wince when I think of what you must have thought about my alterations. Maybe leave that part out. :)
The major problem is that every key is graded and weighted from the key (to which the jack is attached!) up to the individual springs of each underhammer, the size, shape, and weight of each shank AND hammer-head! Plus the shanks have a tack-headed screw that sits at a specific angle and position in relation to the underhammer to throw the hammer and adjust its relative height just north of where the knuckle would be. The shanks themselves have the fixed pin knuckle and the flanges have the two bushed prongs, The reverse of all modern hammers and flanges. I haven't seen a precedent for restoring this 'Improved Brown Action' anywhere
working on two steinway model M's from the 1920's/ driving me nuts, the whippens are notoriously fickle to adjust perfectly.
Those bass notes remind me of a Bösendorfer with the extra bass notes. It’s truly exceptional.
Right?? I've sent measurements off to Hellerbass in Germany for some premium bass strings. In a few weeks I'll shoot a video of the before/after. #oldschoolsubwoofer
Brother Ben - Mikey Likey! If that high treble is anything to go by, it's already a nudge up against the Chickering. Great commentary as always. Thanks both for the truth and the giggles.
“Mikey Likey”. 😂
Always good to have you weigh in! And I agree about the high treble indicating a nice leveling up for me and the studio. I would also say that the bottom six or so notes hint at greatness as well. Now to bridge the gap!
Interesting re the steel-wrapped strings. Did they go out of favour at some point. I've worked on an 1880s(?) Chickering 106 that had them, as does my 1833(??) Viennese square. I've noticed they seem extra-prone to breakage. Wonder if it's something to do with the metallurgy. There seem to be very few sources of replacements today...
Yeah, I was definitely surprised to see steel in the bass! I think I said this in the video; from what I’ve heard, though they had the virtue of a smoother transition to unwound strings they were prone to going dead.
I wonder if Hellerbass does steel wound strings. Maybe worth an inquiry if you were interested.
I’m going to check to see if you have any videos on that 1880s Chickering!
@@insidepianos I think you need to access my Chickering vids via my Music playlist. They're not great...even the final tuning I did was still pretty poor, and the playing is even poorer...
Awesome!!
Thanks for watching, MoBetta! Think you’re gonna LOVE this one!
@@insidepianos I can't wait to check it out. Keep me posted on the progress. I'd love to see some of it in action.
Great find! It has a lot of potential. I hope you could try the new NY Steinway hammers. They changed their hammers since 2019, I think. Good luck with your repair.
I agree that New Steinway hammers are not a bad thought for this instrument. However, they’ve become sort of a “controlled substance” in that Steinway has drastically limited their availability. Paired with Steinway‘a claim that only Steinways w genuine Steinway parts are the real deal it gives them a leg up against all the rebuilders out there restoring used Steinways.
I’ve decided to go with Ronsen Weickert felt hammers which is what I have on my Chickering. (Perhaps you’ve checked out that video.) They are on the softer side and are meant to harken back to the classic American sound of the early 20th century.
Thanks for watching!
I agree with you. The SD-10s sound tinny to me. I love the SD-6 and the Model D Baldwins.
The hammers tended to get harder into the SD-10 era. I recently heard that Del Fandrich (who did some designing for them) was frustrated that the hammer press was too hot. And for some of this era they used Renner, which are great hammers but quite hard.
All this to say that I think Baldwin could have showcased their flagship pianos better throughout the 80s and 90s with softer hammers.
My latest piano in the showroom is a Baldwin R from 1979. Adjusting for size, it’s the most gorgeous piano I have ever produced. I used Bacon felt hammers by Ronsen-their softest-and very conservatively and gradually hardened them just to the point of having a full dynamic range, no further. I have to think that Baldwin would have given Steinway a serious run for their money had they upped their hammer game.
This piano will soon be featured in a video or two.
@@insidepianos Ok. I see. I wonder why Hamburg Steinways sound so good even with Renner hammers.
That’s a good follow up. I don’t know if there was a qualitative difference between the Renner hammers supplied to let 20th century Baldwins and those supplied to Hamburg Steinway.
Also, Renner hammers have to be very skillfully needled to achieve great results. I’m not casting aspersions towards Baldwin but I do feel that the Steinway folks in Hamburg rrrreally know what their doing. And maybe they have done a better job matching the scale and belly construction to the potency of the Renner hammer.
I’ll be voicing an SD-10 from around 1980 in the coming weeks. Maybe I’ll have more insight after that.
Amazing news! I had a late 60s Baldwin concert grand, it was an SD-10 (with hitch pins) but it was a remarkable instrument and the build quality was amazing. Will you be going with Ronsen Weickert hammers again here? Out of curiosity are the keys the original ivories? Looking forward to following this project!
Russ! Nice to have you along for the ride. I've decided on Ronsen Bacon felt for this one. They're softer than Weickert and have lovely bloom and sustain. Given that this burly piano is going into a 20'X24' studio I want to make sure it won't overwhelm the space and can "play well with others".
I've used them for my last 2 hammer jobs and the only negative I might be able to muster is that they're too sweet. They're not as popular as Weickert but several technicians I really admire prefer them and I've been pleased so far.
Plastic keytops, many scarred for life by whomever was going at it in church--deep grooves.
Sounds like you had a lovely SD-10. I really meant it when I said that you could find some awesome ones post-1965.
That Baldwin is gold!
It takes an educated ear to hear the gold at this early stage which, of course, you have. I think I landed a winner!
Would love to hear any updates you have on this project! I’m experiencing Baldwin withdrawals.
I'll be very interested to see how this goes. I have two minor suggestions: for the loose bass tuning pins you might try a very minimal amount of water-thin CA glue (I prefer the Loctite brand with the long thin spout, as being very easy to apply accurately, and also in such a small quantity that it is easy to use fresh.) A very few drops, wait five minutes, gingerly try to tune. Sometimes a second dose (two or three drops) will achieve enough friction for tuning if the first one didn't. The reasoning being, if you go up in pin size you are risking spreading cracks, and also the tuning is different due to the larger pin diameter. Banging a tuning pin into an already compromised pinblock is a pretty violent thing to do when a very little bit of CA often will achieve what is needed.
The other thing which I've noted is the very large very heavy Baldwin music desk. Not having any perforations in it means that a pianist using it cannot properly hear the sound, compared to playing without the music desk or playing with one which has holes in it or is smaller and lighter. I noted this when a duo piano team played a concert, with a 1971 SD-10 which had gradually turned into a very loved and enjoyed piano, paired with a 2005 Steinway D. The pianist playing the Baldwin complained that balance wasn't good, he wasn't loud enough, when anyone in the house could tell it was perfect. I haven't had the nerve to cut holes in it, (belongs to the hall, not me, anyway), but if it were my piano in a recording studio I'd replace that panel without something lighter, thinner, and had some openings in it -- but leaving a closed place where someone might want to write on music. I believe this is one reason that the 19th century Steinways had fretwork music desk panels.
Susan, you are DEAD ON about the music rack! I am already planning in my mind the type of perforations I want to create. I've seen circular ones on a Steinway which I assume were done that way to avoid catching pages. As you say, the player has a distorted sense of what they are doing and doesn't get to enjoy the beauty of the instrument.
Perhaps I should try the CA method. I take your point about the violence done to an already compromised block by sizing up the pins. This may be less of an issue as I hope to sooner than later replace that. Have you found the pins to be jumpy after using CA glue? I assume you are using ultra thin glue as opposed to thinning it yourself?
Regarding your other post, the bass is indeed a glorious thing. I've reworked my schedule in hopes of getting back to posting more content. You should be able to hear soon enough for yourself!
Thanks for your interest!
@@insidepianos Thanks so much for your reply! Always nice to know that you agree with some of what I said. Yes, I've sometimes known tuning pins treated with CA to be jumpy, which is another reason to start small and use as little as possible. But most will make a little cracking sound the first time they are moved after the glue has set, but then tune all right. If you are going to replace the pinblock later, no reason to avoid using CA on the old one. I'm eager to hear the bass after you have worked on it. I really enjoy your videos. Perhaps you could look at various European music desks to see what forms of perforation they have chosen. You could choose an appearance which is pleasing, though it certainly won't look like a conventional Baldwin after that.
Congratulations on the Baldwin. A little surprising the pitch was off that much. Most churches have their pianos tuned to A-440 once or twice a year...especially if it is played with other instruments like an Organ.
Good point about the organ. I'm wondering if they didn't have one or never played piano and organ at the same time. The second highest string is broken. My theory: an aural tuner kept going ever sharper as they lost their hearing. I've seen it before.
Hey there, I am really enjoying the videos here on your channel, do you have any updates on how this Baldwin SD-6 is coming along? Thanks!
I do! I know it’s been a long time coming but I’ll have a video update out within the month. I appreciate your interest!
@@insidepianos I know that planning, recording, editing, and publishing videos is quite a task in addition to the task of working on the mechanics of the piano too -- but I still would love to have some updates on this SD-6! Also, your audio recording quality is really something to be super proud of!!!
Thanks for the kind words and the encouragement. I just moved my operations to an actual shop and have trimmed down other activities. Fingers crossed that I can finally get some videos out at a somewhat regular pace.
As a bit of a teaser, I’ve realized that I will need to restring the SD-6 to be satisfied with the sound. This would include attempting to solve some excessive downbearing issues as well.
That said, the instrument has still come a long way.
@@insidepianos That is great to hear- thanks for the update, I really look forward to the details to come! :)
How long have you been married? Does your partner share your interest in pianos?
Whaaaaa? After all that work? I totally understand though. I have the same dilemma with my 109 in terms of having to remove the plate to really restore it completely.
Yes, all the above. Sometimes it's worth it, though, to go all in, particularly if you're looking to keep the instrument long term. That 109 is a special one!
@@insidepianos Oh, it's definitely worth it with the 109. I've decided to replace the entire action with WNG. If I'm going to do all that, I figure I may as well go the whole 9 yards and take off the plate too. You've given me an idea for having a piano to play while I restore it, though. I saw a beautiful little 6' Baldwin in pristine shape that may fit the bill! Thanks again for all your great videos! Get some sleep. You remind me of myself up all night obsessing! lol
I just attended a WNG intro course via Zoom last night. They really are thoughtful designers who have given us a lot of flexibility. I think that's a good move on your part.
Re: the Baldwin, I firmly believe Baldwins to be one of the best options for a used piano these days. One of their failings is not using great hammers. But the build quality and design is excellent. Put together people can sometimes not realize how good the instrument actually is and will sell it inexpensively. Pop a set of great hammers on there and you have something approximating the quality of a Steinway. For you, too, this would be a great contrasting piano to your Chickering. They will offer very different experiences/strengths.
You may know that I'm selling my 6'3" Baldwin. Its case is...different and maybe you're set on the Baldwin you described. But if you're curious it's on my website insidepianos.com.
@@insidepianos I wish I'd known about that seminar. Your Baldwin is beautiful and the price is very attractive for all the work you've done but yeah... the colour isn't my taste. The Baldwin I was looking at sold in a day! Looking at 6' 1921... Chickering!
PS After consulting Jim Iallegio, I found that I can't use the WNG action on the 109. There are way too many technical problems starting with the flared keys and balance rail being in the wrong place. So, I'm now into a complete restoration of the original Brown action which I've been working at anyway for the past 3 months. The 1921 action can be replaced as you know, so I think I may do that.
This is really relatable on all points :) I'm in a similar process on a couple instruments as an obsessive hobbyist non-professional. I have an SF-10 in much worse starting condition that i am slowly bringing up to its incredible potential. With some help ofc, esp. from the internet. Have you seen Regi Hedahl's RUclips videos? His choice of hammer if i remember is the Ronsen for 7-9 ft Baldwins. As much as i enjoyed your terrific work on the Chickering, i hear great things in this piano too (so much potential). Can't wait for your updates over the next years!! Congrats
Hey there! You sound like a kindred spirit. I am familiar with Regi and have spoken with him on occasion. He uses the Ronsen Bacon felt hammers and gets a nice result. He’s also an advocate for light hammer, opting for their 14lb hammer where 16lb felt is more conventional for an SF10.
One lingering question if have is that the tone of his pianos is super sweet but I’ve never heard him play big rep on them. Do they roar when needed? I don’t know.
I’m soon to release an update on my Baldwin having worked on it for a year. I tried Ronsen Weickert felt (14lb) at first but I think they were a bad set. I swapped them for Abel “Special Pressing” hammers available through Pianotek Supply. They are really well suited, however they require a lot of voicing skill to bring about a great result.
Oh, I should add that I have used Bacon felt twice on two pianos in the 5’ range and LOVED the result. They required very little voicing. I’ve been afraid to try them on a large piano.
Hope this helps. If nothing else just know that I relate to the obsession. :-)
@@insidepianos Yep, definitely a kindred spirit :)) I find slightly lighter hammers are almost always better for the action feel in terms of balancing that response expectation vs the leverage/ratio (i'm not technical haha), for more sensitive players at least, and modern builds almost always start out with heavier hammers unless the customer requests otherwise in a custom build. I have read many posts by Del Fandrich on piano discussion forums re action ratios, and maybe only understand a little over half of it ;)
In terms of power and big sound dynamic range with the Ronsen Bacon hammers, I also never heard Regi really blast out his triple fortes lol, however from personal experience, i would say those hammers are meant to stay in the sweeter mellower side, so if you don't want to use chemical hardeners on a new set, i would try small adjustments in regulation instead, for example increasing blow dist and letoff just slightly for more resilient strikes, maybe adding a little range in the mezzo to forte and some punch without the harshness. 7- & 9-foot Baldwins have lots of dynamic range and bass depth for me so I wouldn't want to get too rigid or weighty with the hammers personally (the high treble is where I would go more substantial where possible - even without front duplex there's a nice colourful zing to bring out but it can easily get a little too strident or quiet compared to the rest for sure). I think even the most experienced voicers still have to trial and error it quite a bit due to personal preference and differences with each instrument & humidity in the room. I enjoy your playing btw! You have good touch 😊
I would have no aversion to hardening Bacon felt hammers if it worked. :-) You raise good points about bringing aspects of regulation to bear on the tone.
Have you made a decision on the hammers you intend to use? I’ll be hanging a set of those Abels on an SF10 this summer and can let you know how it goes.
@@insidepianos I was contemplating which hammer myself as that would be the next step, though i probably have too much on my plate in terms of ongoing projects. My local tech is due to take an assessment in the Summer & will help me decide on priorities. Generally preferring a sweeter gentler sound (Regi's Baldwin videos) I still would not mind using the Abels and adjusting my playing in order to have more tonal options. I have heard Abel can be versatile & longer wearing from being comparably denser out of the factory, and i do think when a more percussive/dynamic sound is desired (shosta/prokofiev/bartok) that contrast is hard to get from an overly voiced down piano, or one with a really sweet character haha. One opinion i have read a lot is many techs believe the hammer choice should match the intended tonal palette of the piano's design to best showcase the instruments. I'm not sure what that would have been for the SD6/10 & SF.. they were quite popular for venues so i imagine quite a bit of variation from different customers.
For hammers it is easier to start from harder and go softer, bouncier to less bouncy right? You have so much more experience and expertise than me, & most technicians where I'm located, so I am very curious how the abels turn out on that Baldwin SF!
Btw I found giving an extra 8th of an inch to the letoff made for a much nicer attack - big difference in sound all else being equal. I'm a really touch-sensitive player so trading off those compromises in feel is a big deal for me XD
@@Li-yt7zh In terms of which is easier, starting with a hard or soft hammer, I think it comes down to which you have the greatest experience with. Steinway (US) is in the minority, though, with their practice of starting soft. Both types offer tones of flexibility.
Voice-up hammers probably take less of a physical toll. Placing liquid is easier than needling cushion into a set of Renners, for example.
Renner was the maker for Baldwin, at least in some eras. So, if we follow the advice of replicating the originals that, supposedly, the piano was designed for, we'd go with Abel or Renner, I'd say.
But I'm not a total purist. I absolutely loved the sound the Bacons yielded on that small Baldwin I believe I mentioned.
As always, good luck!
I understand everyone has their reasons, but for an instrument like your old chickering, I don't see how resale value is really a priority. the value of a piano for recording and studio work is in how it plays and sounds, not how much money u can sell it for. I feel the same way about a personal instrument. I own an old Knabe which will never have the resale value of a steinway or baldwin, but i like the way it plays and sounds just as much and being so old, it has a lot of character that newer, more valuable pianos will never have.
I understand and respect where you’re coming from. Period. (And congratulations on your classic Knabe!)
In my case, though I loved much of the Chickering, I was afraid that it would never have the treble I wanted. The only added measure I could have taken aside from serious re-engineering was to use epoxy to stiffen the board (requiring removing the plate). Maybe it would have worked but especially since the Chickering lacks a front duplex it’s very possible it wouldn’t have. I’d then be in the position of having to sell it.
Looking back, I can see that in the mix was simply the desire to climb another mountain and see what I would find at the top.
The ‘62 Baldwin had its plate out in August receiving work beyond what the Chickering got. I want to freshen up the hammers but I’ll get a video out before years’ end. I’ll be curious to get people’s reactions to this protracted journey of mine.
Your get pedal noise on the recording at times. Not sure what it might needs but listen. Maybe your just letting off the pedal too fast. My Baldwin F which is for sale does the same. Haven't check my Baldwin D to see if it does the same.
At this point the spring in the damper pedal was missing making it super light and hard to control. Maybe it squeaked too. Remember, this was just as the piano came in. Fixing pedal noise was the least of my worries.
when your ready to get a Steinway 9 footer look me up. I'll find you a good deal. Don
Thanks Don. I know I've come across your name. What's your dealership? Or do you work independently?
Strong Klavier. Impressive. Mics on the recording? Preamp(s)? Brand in mind for hammers? Hammer replacement in first round of refurbishung? Will you replace the hammers yourself? Ok, lots of questions )), fyi my answers, yes I finaly got a hammer company to sell me hammers (through a licensed technician of course) for my Klavier.... Abel, two sets bored, soft and medium, will install them myself, will do an install of a few without glue to choose which set to start with, soft and medium no nature filz.
Congratulations on finally getting hammers, from Abel, no less! ! I’ll be curious which you go with.
Mics-AEA N8s in a Blumlein pattern as described in my Recording Classical Piano Part 2. Preamps-Focusrite ISA828.
I’m looking to put Ronsen Bacon felt hammers on the Baldwin in my first round. The current hammers have ZERO life left in them. The bacon felt hammers have lovely bloom and due to their softness will keep the volume from overpowering. As you say, it is a strong Klavier! (I’ll hang them myself.)
@@insidepianos awesome plan. Thanks for the detail. It's all so interesting. I am very happy to hear that you will install the new hammers yourself. After all it's a large component of your tone, as you mentioned. I am using a Canadian fish glue so easy to tack a hammer in place to test alternate tone (intonation). I am so happy for us. I will update.
Canadian fish glue. Interesting. Do you have to heat it?
I'm happy for you, but don't be too happy for me. The hammers I've chosen are on back order, possibly for weeks!! It will be a tough wait for me. In the meantime I'm working on the keys--tons of side to side. Rebushing is in order.
@@insidepianos Contura Natur original Kanadischer Fischleim no heating .....you also play beautifully, very sensitive. Enjoy !!!!!!
Thanks so much, Thomas. Coincidentally my friend John who I mention on the show sometimes mentioned using fish glue on the last set of hammers he installed. He liked it!
Buy a Fazioli.
Hoi Ben, i am not a piano technician but i think you are right about your Baldwin. See this video at minute 8:30. m.ruclips.net/video/vgecQ1uytSA/видео.html Bechstein used the almost the same sort of stringing more then 100 years ago. And the color is so harmonicly rich! Good luck with the rebuilding.
Very, very interesting. I’ve definitely seen Steinways from that period with that unequal speaking length the entire treble bridge as with this Bechstein. It seems Baldwin is the last major company to do this-up through 1964. I’ll be very interested to live with this aspect of the piano during this initial stage, which won’t involve and reworking of the bridge, and hear what I think of it. Part of my concern is that it’s not consistent, but is bordered by parallel-notched sections. We’ll see...
Thanks for watching and for the video link. I hope to receive bass strings this week. Once installed, I’ll do video #2 of the Baldwin.
I am curious what you deside with the bridge. Mybe the inconsistency gives the piano more overtones, soul, personality and richness. Or it could be less focused when tuned not right. I have a blind tuner that can make almost every piano sing. But your kind personality is the greatest gift of your studio, not your piano :-). So whatever you deside it will turn out well. Sorry for my bad English I am flemish. Good luck with your presious and expensive Heller Bass strings. The bass of your piano sounds awesome! Keep up the good videos. Greatings from Belgium
You’re very kind, Thomas.