Like many people, I used to roll my eyes at Guilliman. Now I really like him. Having a moral, rational person in a universe that's totally psychotic is very interesting to me.
I think the reason why they don't like him is because he's. A Penny pincher in a massive accountant. but he's competent and he knows that you don't win nothing without. Without logistics trade routes and fantastic taxes.
It wasn't Guilliman himself that was the problem per-say, but the weird "spiritual liege" implication for non-Ultramarine chapters, and how he was thrown into basically every major event when he returned. The Horus Heresy series did a good take on him though, and I hope we see more of that style for him in the future.
I think it all stems from the point in the lore when the ultramarines were total marry sues and did everything better then everyone and sense they have always been the poster chapter for the whole series people will always be jealous
Yeah, he seems like kind of a square, a goody two-shoes, an obnoxious over achiever that can't relate to lesser beings including the other Primarchs. But I think the writing has been so damn good that you end up really caring about him and wanting him to succeed.
@@georgewkush6090 maybe portrayed as exemplifying excellence without being interesting enough to actually earn their popularity. Pretty much the military version of Coldplay.
Another thing to consider is that if we don't count time spent in a stasis field, Bobby G is only around 200-400ish years old. He's smart enough to take into account that the likes of Grimnar and Dante have LIVED longer and likely seen more.
I wonder about that, tho, how long did the Great Crusade, Heresy, and post-Hersey Scouring take? And hasn't the Indomitus Crusade taken a few hundred years as well? He must be at least 600-800 years old. Still a bab, true.
@@dac314 the crusade was around 200-300 hundred years but the Horus heresy was only 9 years whilst the entire scouring lasted from the beginning of M31 to around 31,300ish but gorilla man was killed a decent time before that by fulgrim. Through my estimation Gulliman should be about 400-500 years old
it was the Calw inferior that asked to be the fabricator general. later when Calw actual was talking to Gulliman, this was brought up, Belisarius was surprised by this and brought up several reasons why he wouldn't want this and that he would investigate
@@MWH12085 Exactly, being the top dog would mean a metric ton of admin work that Cawl would hate. He likes actually doing stuff, being the FG, would most likely halt him from doing it.
@@MWH12085 He's not exactly a fundamentalist. I do believe there was a Fabricator-General who tried to bring new tech into the Mechanicus and they pretty much burned her at the stake for being a heretic. No way they're going to accept him and his desire to innovate. Guilliman shoving that down their throats would be a step way too far and he knows it. He's got enough headaches dealing with one state-sanctioned religion.
@@JesseMcCullough Yup, Cawl's ultimate goal is to return the mechanicus back to what it was during the dark age of technology, where progress was the primary goal, but he knows it's going to take a long time for that to happen, 10,000 years of stagnancy isn't something you can undo in one day, and it's easier to do that when he isn't bound by the stigmas and procedures of the current mechanicus.
I think that with regards to the Primarch most suited to change the fate of the imperium there isn't any other option than Guilliman. He is the standard of a unifier that has only ever been succeed by Horus. Roboute sees everything in modes of succession and is the only primarch that has ever truly worked to build a real empire and maintained that effort even whilst crusading. Guilliman's tactical mind is only comparable to Rogal Dorn's and Perturabo's and in that he is the most flexible with regards to his adaptation to changing schemes or events in the environment around him, and his strategic mind is only comparable with the likes of Alpharius and even Malcador. I would argue that if there were to be a Primarch that could possibly have a better understanding of the workings of the minds of men, or otherwise, it was hard pressed to find one better than Alpharius, and his interest in maintaining control of the populace was nearly non-existent. Roboute is skilled in state/skillcraft as much as Alpharius was however thanks to Conor, Guilliman also was brought to consider honor and transparency as the paramount virtues by which to govern which means that Guilliman is the Apex model from which to rebuild the decaying body of the Imperium. He has a firm belief in Humanity as a species, and he actively sees the baseline humans as the future rather than as the flock of sheep that many chapters and former legions have regularly implied, and while he has the power to trump any disagreement with force or authority, he knows that the battles must be one in the hearts and minds of every citizen so that they can buy into the program of reform and really begin to adjust the behemoth that is the Imperium. As Rho has stated many times, Gulliman cannot be everywhere at once, and like the Emperor, needs emissaries and major populations to work together to push the programs of repair, reform, and war on all the countless fronts without having to constantly walk to line across the entire galaxy, and while he did remove by force a number of the High Lords as is his right due to his privilege and position he did only choose to handle those who were specifically subservient to the throne of Terra directly, and there can be no doubt that while on his travels he was absorbing every file he could gather on these people before having ever made it to the Sol system. And while, he may not have been pre-eminent in his reputation for fighting other primarchs, we also tend to forget that Guilliman, like Sanguinius, is a model of controlled rage. Very rarely, if ever, have we seen that control truly slip We don't actually even fully understand what he is capable of in an all-out fight. What we do know if that he has the ability to show humility, trust, valor, bravery, ruthlessness, cunning, and intelligence on par with the best in the galaxy at any time and he has done so so well that even the Custodians sent to act as a watch pack for anything untoward from him have started to sway in his direction.
Absolutely true, and Dorn is a beast when it comes to building, but Guilliman is the Empire builder out of the group barring Horus. Dorn would have likely created an incredible civilization had he been given the opportunity but Ultramar is literally a stellar empire in its own right. It’s not a diminishment of Rogal by any means, but he is a Siege Master where Guilliman is an empire builder
Actually that’s not true. Horus didn’t have an interest necessarily in building and administering an empire, however, due to his unnatural charisma he was able to very effectively administer the Imperium. Guilliman himself envied to some degree Horus’s ability to seemingly effortlessly navigate politics even between the primarchs. It’s funny that only Sanguinius seemed to be more adept than either one but he had no interest in holding office higher than that of his legion and people.
I mean if it was Russ, he would've spoken to the Emperor on Terra and discovered that the Emperor only viewed the Primarchs as tools and objects; he would've discovered the All-Father's ruse...Russ would've probably flipped out, returned to Fenris, rallied all of his sons and kaerls, and went on a suicidal crusade against Chaos and dragged the Imperium into Ragnarok and its destruction. He would not have cared one ounce about humanity's survival only that he and his sons died in glorious combat against the Archenemy. Let's face it, it had to be Guilliman. With Sanguinius dead, there really was no other logical choice to keep the Imperium surviving in such dire times after the Rift opened. Guilliman is balanced in terms of tactical gains and sacrifice, his (possible) surviving brothers are not so nuanced at juggling the lives of mortals, Astartes, and the Imperium as a whole, as well as being a reasonable figurehead and statesman. I believe the Emperor chose Guilliman since his command was for the Imperium to survive, which he knew Guilliman would ensure naturally. Dorn, Russ, Corax, Vulkan, the Khan, and the Lion would be merely secondary considerations; not the right tools for the current job...but, possibly later.
To be fair Russ knew that the Primarchs were tools, and that each of them had a role to fulfill and had in his mind a grasp of what most of them were supposed to be.
@@NuAntares Yes, I believe more in a sense of having purposeful roles, sure. But, Guilliman's chat had more of the heartless objectivism mixed with almost desperation coming through that the Emperor could no longer hide. I still think Russ would not take it well. His sons seem very fatalistic as of the last few centuries, most seem to want to cross over to the afterlife in a blaze of glory and Hel to the Upplanders for not wanting the same thing.
I think the interesting thing about Guiliman is how he has to analyze the psychotic universe and it’s structure in a rational way. His debates about the emperor, his relationship with the ecclesiarchy, and his approach to building hope in a hopeless galaxy is one hell of a story. He’s the least flashy loyalist primarch (imo), and somehow he’s the only one that stands a chance
@@simonlaw5529 maybe Cawl Inferior is more the other personalities he took, more than the Cawl personality. Maybe it is more Sedayne. Or even the Magos Biologis that he remembers in the great work
I think for guilliman to show up and thoroughly rearrange the high lords as he saw fit while leaving the mechanicus alone does 2 things. It implies to the mechanicus that he supports them and respects them as they currently exist. For everything else to get changed but for the mechanicus to stay the same is a powerful endorsement from guilliman. But it also lets the mechanicus know that no imperial authority outside of the imperial household is above his will and he could absolutely do to mars what he did to terra if he felt like they needed adjusting. Mars isn't to be fucked with and he knows that, but mars knows how close he and caul work and they know that guilliman absolutely has the power to make any changes he wants at any level. So they know that if they piss him off he can crush them and put caul in charge. Seeing caul and the primaris they can also see how much can get done if they work with the primarch and the implication here is that like the current high lords, the current mechanicus can either work with guilliman or they can work with him. The fact that mars hasn't been forced to do anything means guilliman both respects their autonomy and trusts them to make the smart choice
Guillman's doing the best he can but he does need help. He needs another primarch to awake, possibly The Lion to take over the crusading so he can sort out the cancer inside the Imperium.
@TyphariusMortarion's redemption was teased when he faced Guilliman,as he was forced to join chaos with the weakest motive of doing so and Fulgrim's redemption tecnically already happened with his clone,he just needs to fight his demon self
@Typharius The Big E said to Mortarion through Guilliman,that his redemption is possible and one day he will heal him and the other demon primarchs. Despite being flawed,GW wouldnt bring up Fulgrim clone and do nothing with him. I have a theory that Perturabo isnt even a demon Prince but just a renegade primarch
I always thought of myself as a rather boring and austere person. This was confirmed when I couldn't decide between Dorn and Guilliman as my favorite primarchs
"Cawl himself is nothing out of the ordiinary." That sentence hurts my brain. If Belisarius Cawl was ordinary then humanity would either be in another golden age or would have already blown themselves up completely via too many madcap science projects running at the same time for reality to deal with. The mere thought boggles the mind and perplexes the senses. Still like the video though.
So to answer the last bit, ya Guilliman would be the best unless Sanguinius found a way to come back. All the others either wouldn't know how to start running the Imperium, or would be out maneuvered to keep running it. I feel yes so far he just wants to get things up to a basic running speed then will find out things like which planets have Taco Tuesday and which ones have Taco Friday. The Mechanicus does not only have such a great deal of freedom compared to the Imperium Factions but would be most likely its strongest since it holds its own army, navy, along with sworn Knight Houses. I think though Guilliman should give Cawl a newly created position since he can't give him leadership he allows him an immunity to the Mechanicus rules, where he answers only to the Lord Commander or Higher.
To treat with Russ, Guilliman would be better served to threaten him with single combat, win lose or draw; but with the sons of the Russ, showing them the respect they've earned & honoring them for their sacrifices is the best way to earn their loyalty. Roboute IS a master statesman.
The reply from the Knight House shows that Imperium is it's own biggest enemy. Galaxy torn in half, demons pouring out of every nook and cranny. Necrons waking up. Hive fleets getting bigger and bigger. And the knights went nah, we're not helping because you didn't say please.
Part of me hopes Guilliman just gets fed up with the stupidity of the Imperium and turns Ultramar into the center of a new Imperium Secundus, run a thousand times better. Have the Imperium keep sending invasion fleets over to take it back, only to have them either get destroyed or mutiny to Imperium Secundus because it's very clearly better lol.
So, all or nearly all of the Primarchs have their own tragedy. I think Guilleman's ultimate tragedy is that he can't truly see his limits. He can't administer it all alone despite his willingness to undertake the burden and the fact that nobody else could do it better. He's blind to other options but his purpose as an administrator. In the galactic present, the task has never been harder. It's orders of magnitude more burdensome than it was when the Emperor and Malcador were doing it while completing the Great Crusade, the Imperial Truth was strong in uniting Mankind, the other Primarchs were doing their parts, etc. And the expectations have never been higher of Guilleman with the fact that he's considered a demi-god by just about everybody around him. Nobody is going to suggest to him he not try to do it all and I'm convinced he's incapable not trying to do it all himself. I don't know how it all comes to a head, whether it's another Primarch who is ostensibly an ally but does something undiplomatic or Mars does something unexpected with the emergence of Vashtorr, but it's got to come to a head at some point.
I like your take on it but if I had to say what would be Guillimans tragedy in my opinion he will never achieve his lifes purpose. Guilliman has devoted himself to humanity and his ultimate goal is and has always been to elevate humanity to such a level it can live unthreatened and largely peacefully. This realistically will never happen and even if it does he almost definitely will not see it happen as he has already displayed he is more than willing to sacrifice himself for humanity.
THE DIPLOMACY OF GUILLIMAN! Navigator House leader: Do as I say or no Navigators. Roboute Guilliman: Flog him in public. in the codex politica..somewhere
Cawl does not want to be Fabricator General. Listerally says exactly that in the novel The Great Work. The Cawl Inferior is what is requesting it independent as it is actually AI.
As interesting as that is things are bad enough in the imperium as it is so them losing such a major player may upset the balance too much at the moment
Sounds like a good idea, it'll put the Imperium on the back foot after Arks of Omen wraps up and be an amazing excuse to introduce the Dark Mechanicum.
It is at this point that another Primarch needs to come back, and yes I see the writing on the walls with the Dark Angels, and help out and not put up a fight. Guiliman will have trouples I believe with any of the Primarchs to different degrees. Vulkan more or less being the best suited to go along with Guiliman but in truth Vulkan is not what the Imperium needs. If a Primarch like Vulkan comes back the Imperium will more or less be in the same boat, just sinking slower, as it is now. A more aggressive Primarch is needed, like the Lion or Russ. I would even go as far and say Corax wouldn't be a good Primarch to have return at this point. Corax wouldn't be as open and seen and the Imperium needs to see a Primarch on the move more. This would let Guiliman get a better handle on the Imperium and help to bring around these groups. Think about it this way, if the Lion came back and came to an agreement with Guiliman about the state of the Imperium then when Guiliman "asks" the Lion to do something then the Lion would be the one to deal with gathering the forces himself and that would in turn allow Guiliman to be more diplomatic to the groups in the Imperium. The fact that he hasn't talked to the Mechanicium at all is a shocker but the oaths and bonds from the time of the Emperor still holds true.
I read the Cawl novel, it’s his machine that keeps saying that and he wasn’t aware if it. he wants no part of politics as it would get in his way with his quest for knowledge
Yeah Cawl even said that trying to make him head of Mars would trigger another Martian civil war. At the same time Cawl doesn't want job, because it prevent from continuing his research and exploration. Basically he doesn't want to be trapped at the head of Martian bureaucracy from ever doing real science again. It turns out if you read the lines carefully from the Cawl inferior you discover that when its asks that Cawl be made head of Mars. It says security routines are now active right before hand. Many including my self think the Cawl Inferior asking Gullimen this is one of the security checks on state of the Primarch. Meaning if Gullimen agrees or gives a poor argument on why Cawl should not be leader of Mars. Then the Cawl Inferior will immediately alter Cawl something is wrong with the Primarch. But now that current leader of Mars died in latest novel, who will replace him is now unknown.
The Imperium is a gigantic, unwieldy mess with far too many problems to solve. No one among the primarchs is better equipped to handle such a scenario than Roberto Gorilla-fan. With wars on the scale the Imperium is facing, a master of logistics could make more of a difference than the finest warrior or tactician.
Honestly as far as leadership of the whole empire goes, Guilliman is probably the best among the primarchs even if you count the dead/traitor ones. He's by far the best at logictical/administrative matters, has a good military track record for when/if he needs to handle matters himself, and he's versed in politics/diplomacy more than probably any of the other primarchs. It's not even surprising, he was raised to be ruler since he was a young lad and even had his own empire when the Emperor found him.
Without spoiling Assassinorum Kingmaker, there is significantly more at play than your line of reasoning gives context for in regards to that quote. And speaking of Assassinorum Kingmaker, it was one of the freshest novels I've enjoyed in a while, with lots of interesting perspectives and dynamics. It would be very satisfying to get some content love on it from you.
It is a brilliant book and I'm looking forward to what they hinted at in the next Dawn of Fire being on the mentioned Knight world during the ballroom and ending.
I googled it and it could be wrong, but apparently he wasn't even 350 years old when he was put in stasis. So he is actually less experienced in many ways than some of modern 40ks chapter masters. Obviously he'd still annihilate them but its a unique comparison
I think Guilliman was the best of the primarchs to return first, simply because the state of the imperium required a delicate and subtle push in the right direction. Granted some of what he did was not so subtle but I can’t imagine the Lion rocking up and handling what he saw very well. Honestly I think the Lion should return next, followed by Rogal Dorn (I like to believe he’s still alive). You would have the sword, the shield, and the administrator to return the imperium to its intended glory.
I agree! I think Konrads visions are flawed at any rate, his prediction of his own death only came to be because he allowed it to happen. It could have been changed if he wasn’t trying to prove a point
He doesn't have the time to go through all of that, but he knows that he must do so since the alternative is less efficient, the Imperium needs reform but it is too large for shock tactics, the matters with the council of Terra was possible because these were individuals which power resided on Terra, to take on a whole organization across the Imperium requires much more.
Nobody can do what he has to do alone. He need at least 1 or 2 brothers like right now. The lion would be a good one if he can cooperate. Russ could be one too as an enforcer.
I have a question for any table top player. Does every chapter of space marine have unique models? Like sanguinary guard, the i think wolfin from space wolves
@Collin oh wow ok thank you for the info. I thought I saw a special idk what it was a flamer terminator or something like that for salamanders. Guess not thank you
I like to think Guilliman knows that if he becomes too forceful and despotic, it would make him no better than the others who tried to take command of the Imperium and cause an internal conflict that can not be afforded at the present.
Guilliman is the perfect man for the job but I think it would help if his brother Rogal came back . Those two together could bring the imperium back to its former glory easy
We've said it time and time again, Gman is and will alwyas be the right man for the job. We don't see any Primarch from the loyalist side that would've handled it well like Guilliman did. I mean can you see Dorn or any other loyalist deal with the High lords the way Gman did or know the right words to say to Grimnar meeting them face to face or even Helbracht to negotiate the incident between the Black Templars. Guilliman is the personfication of it means to be a true empire builder and I do hope he gets the help he needs, truely.
I mean Sanguinius was pretty great at diplomacy and the fact that he is practically a Martyred Saint would have got the general populace of the entire Imperium on his side. For those that step out of line, he just needs to remind them that he can take down Titans all by himself. He wouldn't want the job though and would only do it out of duty to his father and the Imperium.
@@nathanthom8176 if Sanguinius was alive then forsure but referring to the ones that are suspected to be alive then there are none that could handle the diplomacy between the imperial factions the same way as Gman.
You need to re-read about how Terra and Mars became intertwined. Far from the certain rosiness you're pushing. Heck, only a fraction of the Mechanicus believe The Emperor to be the Omnissiah.
Guilliman should create a galaxy wide "state of emergency" and invest himself with emergency powers. Other factions should be aware of the SOE and accept that concessions ought to be made, because currently political squabbling and pedantry only threatens the state of the galaxy further
*Guilliman being awakened just to play politics while necrons can shut the eye of Terror with a world ship and Abaddon gets defeated by a human old space ship commander in a video game lol*
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I wonder if a more religiously "worshipped" primarch would've been better in the current zealous imperium. Problem is the most loved and dreamy primarch is probably Sanguinius... and y'know... the whole not alive/warp ghost mumbo jumbo
So a primarch returns in the darkest times and all people have to say about him is bitch and moan because he gave orders the time for these games are over guilliman just needs to take the reigns and everybody else needs to step in line or get wrecked especially with the lion back order is needed
Logistically Guilliman is the best for the job. However militarily the Lion is the best, and Diplomatically Sanguinius would be the go to for the loyalists.
Like many people, I used to roll my eyes at Guilliman. Now I really like him. Having a moral, rational person in a universe that's totally psychotic is very interesting to me.
I think the reason why they don't like him is because he's. A Penny pincher in a massive accountant. but he's competent and he knows that you don't win nothing without. Without logistics trade routes and fantastic taxes.
It wasn't Guilliman himself that was the problem per-say, but the weird "spiritual liege" implication for non-Ultramarine chapters, and how he was thrown into basically every major event when he returned.
The Horus Heresy series did a good take on him though, and I hope we see more of that style for him in the future.
I think it all stems from the point in the lore when the ultramarines were total marry sues and did everything better then everyone and sense they have always been the poster chapter for the whole series people will always be jealous
Yeah, he seems like kind of a square, a goody two-shoes, an obnoxious over achiever that can't relate to lesser beings including the other Primarchs. But I think the writing has been so damn good that you end up really caring about him and wanting him to succeed.
@@georgewkush6090 maybe portrayed as exemplifying excellence without being interesting enough to actually earn their popularity. Pretty much the military version of Coldplay.
Another thing to consider is that if we don't count time spent in a stasis field, Bobby G is only around 200-400ish years old. He's smart enough to take into account that the likes of Grimnar and Dante have LIVED longer and likely seen more.
He's only a babby!
I wonder about that, tho, how long did the Great Crusade, Heresy, and post-Hersey Scouring take? And hasn't the Indomitus Crusade taken a few hundred years as well? He must be at least 600-800 years old. Still a bab, true.
@@dac314 i could be wrong, but i thought indomitus has been measured more in decades. Like 40 or 60 years?
@@michaelrogers4157 dunno, you could be correct on that.
@@dac314 the crusade was around 200-300 hundred years but the Horus heresy was only 9 years whilst the entire scouring lasted from the beginning of M31 to around 31,300ish but gorilla man was killed a decent time before that by fulgrim. Through my estimation Gulliman should be about 400-500 years old
it was the Calw inferior that asked to be the fabricator general. later when Calw actual was talking to Gulliman, this was brought up, Belisarius was surprised by this and brought up several reasons why he wouldn't want this and that he would investigate
Cawl most likely doesn't want to deal with the headache of being fabricator-general
@@MWH12085 Exactly, being the top dog would mean a metric ton of admin work that Cawl would hate. He likes actually doing stuff, being the FG, would most likely halt him from doing it.
That or he’s lying to himself or lying to BigG
@@MWH12085 He's not exactly a fundamentalist. I do believe there was a Fabricator-General who tried to bring new tech into the Mechanicus and they pretty much burned her at the stake for being a heretic. No way they're going to accept him and his desire to innovate. Guilliman shoving that down their throats would be a step way too far and he knows it. He's got enough headaches dealing with one state-sanctioned religion.
@@JesseMcCullough Yup, Cawl's ultimate goal is to return the mechanicus back to what it was during the dark age of technology, where progress was the primary goal, but he knows it's going to take a long time for that to happen, 10,000 years of stagnancy isn't something you can undo in one day, and it's easier to do that when he isn't bound by the stigmas and procedures of the current mechanicus.
I think that with regards to the Primarch most suited to change the fate of the imperium there isn't any other option than Guilliman. He is the standard of a unifier that has only ever been succeed by Horus. Roboute sees everything in modes of succession and is the only primarch that has ever truly worked to build a real empire and maintained that effort even whilst crusading. Guilliman's tactical mind is only comparable to Rogal Dorn's and Perturabo's and in that he is the most flexible with regards to his adaptation to changing schemes or events in the environment around him, and his strategic mind is only comparable with the likes of Alpharius and even Malcador. I would argue that if there were to be a Primarch that could possibly have a better understanding of the workings of the minds of men, or otherwise, it was hard pressed to find one better than Alpharius, and his interest in maintaining control of the populace was nearly non-existent. Roboute is skilled in state/skillcraft as much as Alpharius was however thanks to Conor, Guilliman also was brought to consider honor and transparency as the paramount virtues by which to govern which means that Guilliman is the Apex model from which to rebuild the decaying body of the Imperium.
He has a firm belief in Humanity as a species, and he actively sees the baseline humans as the future rather than as the flock of sheep that many chapters and former legions have regularly implied, and while he has the power to trump any disagreement with force or authority, he knows that the battles must be one in the hearts and minds of every citizen so that they can buy into the program of reform and really begin to adjust the behemoth that is the Imperium. As Rho has stated many times, Gulliman cannot be everywhere at once, and like the Emperor, needs emissaries and major populations to work together to push the programs of repair, reform, and war on all the countless fronts without having to constantly walk to line across the entire galaxy, and while he did remove by force a number of the High Lords as is his right due to his privilege and position he did only choose to handle those who were specifically subservient to the throne of Terra directly, and there can be no doubt that while on his travels he was absorbing every file he could gather on these people before having ever made it to the Sol system.
And while, he may not have been pre-eminent in his reputation for fighting other primarchs, we also tend to forget that Guilliman, like Sanguinius, is a model of controlled rage. Very rarely, if ever, have we seen that control truly slip We don't actually even fully understand what he is capable of in an all-out fight. What we do know if that he has the ability to show humility, trust, valor, bravery, ruthlessness, cunning, and intelligence on par with the best in the galaxy at any time and he has done so so well that even the Custodians sent to act as a watch pack for anything untoward from him have started to sway in his direction.
Rogal dorn had built his own multi planetary empire too before he was found .
Absolutely true, and Dorn is a beast when it comes to building, but Guilliman is the Empire builder out of the group barring Horus. Dorn would have likely created an incredible civilization had he been given the opportunity but Ultramar is literally a stellar empire in its own right. It’s not a diminishment of Rogal by any means, but he is a Siege Master where Guilliman is an empire builder
Said high lords plotted to murder him.
In case you forgot.
@@jasonpatrignani4717
Horus only knew how to win battles quickly and damn the consequences, not to manage or run empires.
Actually that’s not true. Horus didn’t have an interest necessarily in building and administering an empire, however, due to his unnatural charisma he was able to very effectively administer the Imperium. Guilliman himself envied to some degree Horus’s ability to seemingly effortlessly navigate politics even between the primarchs. It’s funny that only Sanguinius seemed to be more adept than either one but he had no interest in holding office higher than that of his legion and people.
I mean if it was Russ, he would've spoken to the Emperor on Terra and discovered that the Emperor only viewed the Primarchs as tools and objects; he would've discovered the All-Father's ruse...Russ would've probably flipped out, returned to Fenris, rallied all of his sons and kaerls, and went on a suicidal crusade against Chaos and dragged the Imperium into Ragnarok and its destruction. He would not have cared one ounce about humanity's survival only that he and his sons died in glorious combat against the Archenemy.
Let's face it, it had to be Guilliman. With Sanguinius dead, there really was no other logical choice to keep the Imperium surviving in such dire times after the Rift opened. Guilliman is balanced in terms of tactical gains and sacrifice, his (possible) surviving brothers are not so nuanced at juggling the lives of mortals, Astartes, and the Imperium as a whole, as well as being a reasonable figurehead and statesman.
I believe the Emperor chose Guilliman since his command was for the Imperium to survive, which he knew Guilliman would ensure naturally. Dorn, Russ, Corax, Vulkan, the Khan, and the Lion would be merely secondary considerations; not the right tools for the current job...but, possibly later.
To be fair Russ knew that the Primarchs were tools, and that each of them had a role to fulfill and had in his mind a grasp of what most of them were supposed to be.
@@NuAntares Yes, I believe more in a sense of having purposeful roles, sure. But, Guilliman's chat had more of the heartless objectivism mixed with almost desperation coming through that the Emperor could no longer hide. I still think Russ would not take it well. His sons seem very fatalistic as of the last few centuries, most seem to want to cross over to the afterlife in a blaze of glory and Hel to the Upplanders for not wanting the same thing.
Allowing millions of people to be put in peril because someone didn't ask nicely enough is ... sadly about typical. I really feel for Guilliman.
I think the interesting thing about Guiliman is how he has to analyze the psychotic universe and it’s structure in a rational way. His debates about the emperor, his relationship with the ecclesiarchy, and his approach to building hope in a hopeless galaxy is one hell of a story. He’s the least flashy loyalist primarch (imo), and somehow he’s the only one that stands a chance
To quote ex-Canadian PM P.E.T., "reason over passion."
I heard Guilliman eats Shallots like grapes and loves KFC gravy
Who doesn't love KFC gravy? .......is this Heresy?🤔
It excellent gravy
@Abe Froman na man that’s just your diet
I heard Guilliman likes teenage romance novels and once killed a man for folding book pages.
@Abe Froman Think you've been at the Majorkill kool aid. 🤣
Cawl has stated he doesn’t want to be fabricator general in “the great work”
Exactly but its a recurring "bug" in his Cawl inferior so most likely him annoying Guilliman.
@@simonlaw5529 maybe Cawl Inferior is more the other personalities he took, more than the Cawl personality. Maybe it is more Sedayne. Or even the Magos Biologis that he remembers in the great work
I think for guilliman to show up and thoroughly rearrange the high lords as he saw fit while leaving the mechanicus alone does 2 things. It implies to the mechanicus that he supports them and respects them as they currently exist. For everything else to get changed but for the mechanicus to stay the same is a powerful endorsement from guilliman. But it also lets the mechanicus know that no imperial authority outside of the imperial household is above his will and he could absolutely do to mars what he did to terra if he felt like they needed adjusting.
Mars isn't to be fucked with and he knows that, but mars knows how close he and caul work and they know that guilliman absolutely has the power to make any changes he wants at any level. So they know that if they piss him off he can crush them and put caul in charge. Seeing caul and the primaris they can also see how much can get done if they work with the primarch and the implication here is that like the current high lords, the current mechanicus can either work with guilliman or they can work with him. The fact that mars hasn't been forced to do anything means guilliman both respects their autonomy and trusts them to make the smart choice
Guillman's doing the best he can but he does need help. He needs another primarch to awake, possibly The Lion to take over the crusading so he can sort out the cancer inside the Imperium.
It seems this may come true
If Vulkan,The Lion and Rogal Dorn especially,came back it would be the exact thing that Guilliman needs to help his efforts
@Typharius all together they are 4,not even counting the likely redemption of Fulgrim and Mortarion or the other loyalists
@TyphariusMortarion's redemption was teased when he faced Guilliman,as he was forced to join chaos with the weakest motive of doing so and Fulgrim's redemption tecnically already happened with his clone,he just needs to fight his demon self
@Typharius The Big E said to Mortarion through Guilliman,that his redemption is possible and one day he will heal him and the other demon primarchs.
Despite being flawed,GW wouldnt bring up Fulgrim clone and do nothing with him.
I have a theory that Perturabo isnt even a demon Prince but just a renegade primarch
@Typharius i really want them all back together,even Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus
@Typharius me too,hoping it doesnt disappoint us!
I always thought of myself as a rather boring and austere person. This was confirmed when I couldn't decide between Dorn and Guilliman as my favorite primarchs
"Cawl himself is nothing out of the ordiinary." That sentence hurts my brain. If Belisarius Cawl was ordinary then humanity would either be in another golden age or would have already blown themselves up completely via too many madcap science projects running at the same time for reality to deal with. The mere thought boggles the mind and perplexes the senses. Still like the video though.
So to answer the last bit, ya Guilliman would be the best unless Sanguinius found a way to come back. All the others either wouldn't know how to start running the Imperium, or would be out maneuvered to keep running it.
I feel yes so far he just wants to get things up to a basic running speed then will find out things like which planets have Taco Tuesday and which ones have Taco Friday.
The Mechanicus does not only have such a great deal of freedom compared to the Imperium Factions but would be most likely its strongest since it holds its own army, navy, along with sworn Knight Houses.
I think though Guilliman should give Cawl a newly created position since he can't give him leadership he allows him an immunity to the Mechanicus rules, where he answers only to the Lord Commander or Higher.
This video was really well done, it felt comfortable almost.
To treat with Russ, Guilliman would be better served to threaten him with single combat, win lose or draw; but with the sons of the Russ, showing them the respect they've earned & honoring them for their sacrifices is the best way to earn their loyalty. Roboute IS a master statesman.
The reply from the Knight House shows that Imperium is it's own biggest enemy. Galaxy torn in half, demons pouring out of every nook and cranny. Necrons waking up. Hive fleets getting bigger and bigger. And the knights went nah, we're not helping because you didn't say please.
Part of me hopes Guilliman just gets fed up with the stupidity of the Imperium and turns Ultramar into the center of a new Imperium Secundus, run a thousand times better. Have the Imperium keep sending invasion fleets over to take it back, only to have them either get destroyed or mutiny to Imperium Secundus because it's very clearly better lol.
Epic
The Lion would turn Imperium Secondus into Imperium Exterminatus
@@YourStylesGeneric321 the Lion would take one look at the Ecclisiarchy and ask Gulliman if there's room for another Primarch over on his side.
Intro related. .cheers man the break was justly deserved.
So, all or nearly all of the Primarchs have their own tragedy. I think Guilleman's ultimate tragedy is that he can't truly see his limits. He can't administer it all alone despite his willingness to undertake the burden and the fact that nobody else could do it better. He's blind to other options but his purpose as an administrator. In the galactic present, the task has never been harder. It's orders of magnitude more burdensome than it was when the Emperor and Malcador were doing it while completing the Great Crusade, the Imperial Truth was strong in uniting Mankind, the other Primarchs were doing their parts, etc. And the expectations have never been higher of Guilleman with the fact that he's considered a demi-god by just about everybody around him. Nobody is going to suggest to him he not try to do it all and I'm convinced he's incapable not trying to do it all himself. I don't know how it all comes to a head, whether it's another Primarch who is ostensibly an ally but does something undiplomatic or Mars does something unexpected with the emergence of Vashtorr, but it's got to come to a head at some point.
I like your take on it but if I had to say what would be Guillimans tragedy in my opinion he will never achieve his lifes purpose. Guilliman has devoted himself to humanity and his ultimate goal is and has always been to elevate humanity to such a level it can live unthreatened and largely peacefully. This realistically will never happen and even if it does he almost definitely will not see it happen as he has already displayed he is more than willing to sacrifice himself for humanity.
@@mcnuggets2825 You know what, that's an even greater tragedy so it's much more fitting for the grim dark.
THE DIPLOMACY OF GUILLIMAN!
Navigator House leader: Do as I say or no Navigators.
Roboute Guilliman: Flog him in public.
in the codex politica..somewhere
Cawl does not want to be Fabricator General. Listerally says exactly that in the novel The Great Work. The Cawl Inferior is what is requesting it independent as it is actually AI.
A good story would be Belisarius making a deal/being corrupted by Vashtorr at the end of Arks of Omen
As interesting as that is things are bad enough in the imperium as it is so them losing such a major player may upset the balance too much at the moment
Faaaaaaar tooooo grimmmmmdarkkkkk
Sounds like a good idea, it'll put the Imperium on the back foot after Arks of Omen wraps up and be an amazing excuse to introduce the Dark Mechanicum.
lol no kek. CAWL WAS ALWAYS ALWAYS LOYAL.
@@machu8900 Mars would be in a civil War that would force Guilliman to make more alliances maybe with Commanders Farsights group
The truth of the matter is of course that the Imperium was ungovernable from the start.
It is at this point that another Primarch needs to come back, and yes I see the writing on the walls with the Dark Angels, and help out and not put up a fight. Guiliman will have trouples I believe with any of the Primarchs to different degrees. Vulkan more or less being the best suited to go along with Guiliman but in truth Vulkan is not what the Imperium needs. If a Primarch like Vulkan comes back the Imperium will more or less be in the same boat, just sinking slower, as it is now. A more aggressive Primarch is needed, like the Lion or Russ. I would even go as far and say Corax wouldn't be a good Primarch to have return at this point. Corax wouldn't be as open and seen and the Imperium needs to see a Primarch on the move more. This would let Guiliman get a better handle on the Imperium and help to bring around these groups. Think about it this way, if the Lion came back and came to an agreement with Guiliman about the state of the Imperium then when Guiliman "asks" the Lion to do something then the Lion would be the one to deal with gathering the forces himself and that would in turn allow Guiliman to be more diplomatic to the groups in the Imperium. The fact that he hasn't talked to the Mechanicium at all is a shocker but the oaths and bonds from the time of the Emperor still holds true.
I read the Cawl novel, it’s his machine that keeps saying that and he wasn’t aware if it. he wants no part of politics as it would get in his way with his quest for knowledge
Yeah Cawl even said that trying to make him head of Mars would trigger another Martian civil war. At the same time Cawl doesn't want job, because it prevent from continuing his research and exploration. Basically he doesn't want to be trapped at the head of Martian bureaucracy from ever doing real science again. It turns out if you read the lines carefully from the Cawl inferior you discover that when its asks that Cawl be made head of Mars. It says security routines are now active right before hand. Many including my self think the Cawl Inferior asking Gullimen this is one of the security checks on state of the Primarch. Meaning if Gullimen agrees or gives a poor argument on why Cawl should not be leader of Mars. Then the Cawl Inferior will immediately alter Cawl something is wrong with the Primarch. But now that current leader of Mars died in latest novel, who will replace him is now unknown.
Emm...Cawl himself (in book Great Work of Belisarius Cawl) say to Felice that he did not care about become Fabricater-General
Happy birthday to the misses
The Imperium is a gigantic, unwieldy mess with far too many problems to solve. No one among the primarchs is better equipped to handle such a scenario than Roberto Gorilla-fan. With wars on the scale the Imperium is facing, a master of logistics could make more of a difference than the finest warrior or tactician.
Honestly as far as leadership of the whole empire goes, Guilliman is probably the best among the primarchs even if you count the dead/traitor ones. He's by far the best at logictical/administrative matters, has a good military track record for when/if he needs to handle matters himself, and he's versed in politics/diplomacy more than probably any of the other primarchs. It's not even surprising, he was raised to be ruler since he was a young lad and even had his own empire when the Emperor found him.
Without spoiling Assassinorum Kingmaker, there is significantly more at play than your line of reasoning gives context for in regards to that quote.
And speaking of Assassinorum Kingmaker, it was one of the freshest novels I've enjoyed in a while, with lots of interesting perspectives and dynamics. It would be very satisfying to get some content love on it from you.
It is a brilliant book and I'm looking forward to what they hinted at in the next Dawn of Fire being on the mentioned Knight world during the ballroom and ending.
I googled it and it could be wrong, but apparently he wasn't even 350 years old when he was put in stasis. So he is actually less experienced in many ways than some of modern 40ks chapter masters. Obviously he'd still annihilate them but its a unique comparison
Who is the current fabricator general? I can't seem to find an answer.
It's a key plot point in the 3 Vaults of Terra books.
@@simonlaw5529 I have not read those books.
Absolutely the perfect primarch for the task.
I think Guilliman was the best of the primarchs to return first, simply because the state of the imperium required a delicate and subtle push in the right direction. Granted some of what he did was not so subtle but I can’t imagine the Lion rocking up and handling what he saw very well. Honestly I think the Lion should return next, followed by Rogal Dorn (I like to believe he’s still alive). You would have the sword, the shield, and the administrator to return the imperium to its intended glory.
I agree! I think Konrads visions are flawed at any rate, his prediction of his own death only came to be because he allowed it to happen. It could have been changed if he wasn’t trying to prove a point
HAPPY BIRTHDAY from the internet, missus!!
He doesn't have the time to go through all of that, but he knows that he must do so since the alternative is less efficient, the Imperium needs reform but it is too large for shock tactics, the matters with the council of Terra was possible because these were individuals which power resided on Terra, to take on a whole organization across the Imperium requires much more.
We all wish our angel boy Sanguinius was there
Hope she had a great birthday!
A.G.
Happy birthday wife lord rho
Happy belated birthday to your wife
Nobody can do what he has to do alone. He need at least 1 or 2 brothers like right now. The lion would be a good one if he can cooperate. Russ could be one too as an enforcer.
Konor Guiliman and Euten thought Roboute well.
Wasn't it Cawl inferior who kept petition Roboute to help him become FG of Mars and not Cawl himself?
I personally feel primarch #2 can solve the galactic issues in a week
I have a question for any table top player. Does every chapter of space marine have unique models? Like sanguinary guard, the i think wolfin from space wolves
Unfortunately no, the White Scares, Raven Guard, Ironhands, and Salamanders, and Imperial Fists are the only ones that have no unique models.
@Collin oh wow ok thank you for the info. I thought I saw a special idk what it was a flamer terminator or something like that for salamanders. Guess not thank you
Thank Emperor for Papa Smurf.
It would be as simple as telling that servitor to word the orders in a more sensitive manner. That goddamn servitor is gonna break the imperium
I like to think Guilliman knows that if he becomes too forceful and despotic, it would make him no better than the others who tried to take command of the Imperium and cause an internal conflict that can not be afforded at the present.
I think he's making a naughty or nice list that factors into priorties dowb the line.
Guilliman is the perfect man for the job but I think it would help if his brother Rogal came back . Those two together could bring the imperium back to its former glory easy
Rogal for Defense, but the Khan is needed to ride out and smite the enemies of the Imperium.
We've said it time and time again, Gman is and will alwyas be the right man for the job. We don't see any Primarch from the loyalist side that would've handled it well like Guilliman did. I mean can you see Dorn or any other loyalist deal with the High lords the way Gman did or know the right words to say to Grimnar meeting them face to face or even Helbracht to negotiate the incident between the Black Templars. Guilliman is the personfication of it means to be a true empire builder and I do hope he gets the help he needs, truely.
I mean Sanguinius was pretty great at diplomacy and the fact that he is practically a Martyred Saint would have got the general populace of the entire Imperium on his side. For those that step out of line, he just needs to remind them that he can take down Titans all by himself.
He wouldn't want the job though and would only do it out of duty to his father and the Imperium.
@@nathanthom8176 if Sanguinius was alive then forsure but referring to the ones that are suspected to be alive then there are none that could handle the diplomacy between the imperial factions the same way as Gman.
Wow you’re the first RUclipsr that sounds normal on 1.25x speed
YOU HAVE A MRS !!!!! I heard that you were maidenless
Oh hell ya. First here! Rho I think in a way Papa Smurf is wasting his time on fools instead of just replacing them.
I believe its because he fears they would become martyrs
Its politics. He has to be careful of his approach
@ISSACHARABNER 🙏
Cawl for President.
Yes. Lorgar.
I'll say it Guilliman is doing at least as well as the emperor did without the gift on insight so there's that
I think its all going to come to a head, the big blue will be on the edge of losing.
Them boom, three loyalist primarchs appear
If the night haunter came back as a loyalist every world would fall into compliance regardless
Calm down, edge lord.
You need to re-read about how Terra and Mars became intertwined. Far from the certain rosiness you're pushing. Heck, only a fraction of the Mechanicus believe The Emperor to be the Omnissiah.
Guilliman should create a galaxy wide "state of emergency" and invest himself with emergency powers. Other factions should be aware of the SOE and accept that concessions ought to be made, because currently political squabbling and pedantry only threatens the state of the galaxy further
*Arch Magos* Belisarius Cawl.
*Guilliman being awakened just to play politics while necrons can shut the eye of Terror with a world ship and Abaddon gets defeated by a human old space ship commander in a video game lol*
Yeah, but he needs a forceful primarach to be his fist
Internal fractures ending the Imperium? Recent lore make it sounds like the imperium is already screwed.
“Politics suck ass”. ~ Roubodict Girlymale
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I think the best primarch would have been the Angel but he dead :D
Nooice!
Man I hate knights, as if the current imperium would ever let them think they were an ally and aloud to ignore things.
I wonder if a more religiously "worshipped" primarch would've been better in the current zealous imperium. Problem is the most loved and dreamy primarch is probably Sanguinius... and y'know... the whole not alive/warp ghost mumbo jumbo
OY!! DON'T YOU BE LEAVING DAT LONG AGAIN YA PIMPLY GROT!
So a primarch returns in the darkest times and all people have to say about him is bitch and moan because he gave orders the time for these games are over guilliman just needs to take the reigns and everybody else needs to step in line or get wrecked especially with the lion back order is needed
Logistically Guilliman is the best for the job. However militarily the Lion is the best, and Diplomatically Sanguinius would be the go to for the loyalists.
If I was going to read the lore I wouldn't watch the videos
1.5x playback speed is the sweet spot.
First AYY