The best thing the UCI could do to make pro-cycling safer is to concentrate on making sure the routes are as safe as possible. Pick routes with less "road furniture" and where there are danger zones mark them clearly and put some sort of padding or barriers so riders don't fly off the road. The item they could do to make it less safe is to get rid of or limit race radios. There are probably some riders alive today because when they went off the road a fellow cyclist saw it and reported it on the radio.
I stopped racing not because of the speed but because of the dumb riding of riders in the peleton. Riders riding looking at their power meters, grabbing brakes and swerving. When I started we learned all about the etiquette of group riding and how to read race situations in all conditions. Now we see fit fast riders jump of their trainers straight in to races, they haven’t got the experience to see situations developing and they haven’t got the skills to ride in all conditions. Inexperienced riders, who are disrespectful and powerful is the toxic combination. It’s not the equipment.
Riding with etiquette is not going to solve anything and will get riders less contracts. Everyone wants to win and to do that they need to be in the right position. This isn’t about the mistakes people make where they look over drift a few inches and they crash. It’s the racing for position that gets people crashed out. GC riders and sprinters and everyone in between do it. Lead out trains want to protect their wheels so no one jumps in. Lead outs to mountains same thing. The best team will get their gc rider up at the front away from the rest because of the chances of crashing when 3 riders try to go for the same space around a corner. If you play it safe you won’t win. There are many riders in the lower classifications that would do well in the pro peloton but they don’t have results to back up their watts. It all comes down to money. The team wants results because of the sponsors otherwise no more team.
They are coming into the sport younger these days with a lot of power. Would be interesting to see what the average age is now compared to before at the very top level in the peloton. 🤔👍
Chris, my input is that I think the UCI can do better by improving course selection, dealing with road furniture, and much more scrutiny and preparation of the last 3km of the race, especially sprint stages.
What Chris is talking about had been thoroughly researched by the insurance industry and is called "risk compensation." It is absolutely true that, as people feel safer in an activity, they will take more risks. For example, if road cyclists wore gear that they believed would lessen crash injuries, they will be less fearful of crashing and thus take more risks. It's science. Social science, anyway
I dunno, I bailed on USCF crit racing in '84 after a crash in Northern Virginia. I flipped and bent a steel frame and figured, with no protection, not worth the risk tho' I was just shy of advancing to Cat. 2 and loved the scene. And I had worn gear in BMX and MX. And somehow, roadies were made to wear something more than flimsy hairnets. But I won my first race as an American teen in '75 in West Germany with only the wind parting my hair as I sped solo to the finish. Glad I got to win a few races with that OG style. 😀
Yeah I have to agree the wider tires would just make them go faster and you get so much more control. I have riden my gravel bike on a lot of the classic cols in the Alps and with my 42 mm slick tires I was able to go a lot faster in corners than guys with skinny tires.
About the wider tires incentivizing faster turns. It's not the planned turns that they're worried about. It's the wider tires ability to correct mistakes. Like overcooking a turn on a descent.
I agree with the comments about making the courses safer where they really need to be. Use better barricades with to protrusions,. In tight, high speed turns something softer, right off the course to hit, not forcing a bunch sprint into a narrowing road, or a tight after toward the finish. Very clearly marked traffic furniture and lay a very specific path where there's plenty of it. Just some common sense planning while laying out a course.
I see some comments that imply no changes can or should be made to make riding safer. Hell, I remember when no one wore helmets. A few riders started showing up with them and the debate then raged, should they be mandatory. Helmets are mandatory and there are a number of riders and ex riders currently on this side of the lawn that would have been under it without helmets. Of course more safety is possible. The trick is, every change has unintended consequences that may nullify the actual intention of the change. I think what Chris is saying is spend a little time making more of the unintended consequences intended ones before making a change.
I'm with you on tires. To me the main thing with protective gear is that I have no idea what could reasonably work. I disagree with you somewhat, protective gear works. Helms did save quite a few lives so far and didn't cause lots of additional crashes. But beyond that? What would that protective gear be? Imo there is no common, dangerous injury that can be prevented by a reasonably convenient piece of equipment. What needs to improve is road selection and preparation as well as the rules. Don't run crazy dangerous roads, make them as safe as possible. Do something against reckless cycling, especially in the sprints. Maybe athletes need to be DQ'ed more often. Relegations do nothing against reckless lead-out riders.
I have a set of Zipp road wheels to make an extra road bike out of my cyclocross bike in the summer. I can confirm that once the 33mm grippy mud tires on aluminum rims go back on in the fall, I get a lot less cautious (probably something to do with the fact that the aluminum rims are about 2k cheaper than the Zipps, so the cost of a hitting a tree root or a rock you didn't see is much more acceptable).
I notice the same thing, it's probably because you don't have to search the apex of every corner for that one loose rock that will cause you to washout.
What I would like to see is removable road furniture. If a road or town has too much or dangerous road furniture then it should be excluded from the race. That would force some cities n towns to rethink and plan for removable road furniture in urban settings.
Clean up road furniture on the routes. Certainly near the points that the peloton heats up and blind corners. Whenever I have taken my bike to ride in the south of France on tour routes it’s amazing how much of it there is. And so many drivers in Italy and Spain killing riders on training rides
Interesting observation. Now that I am mostly riding a gravel bike with 35’s on the road I noticed it changes the way I ride. I’m not careless or a risky I just know the bike setup can handle whatever’s in the road. That and if you really want to progress your bike handling skills go on a gravel group ride.
One more comment. Chris, you said that we couldn’t use safety equipment due to the weight. If everyone has to wear it, then it’s a level playing field…..AND…..the manufacturers will pour $ and R&D into making them lighter, cooler, and safer. That trickles down to guys like us. It happened with bikes, clothes, helmets, etc etc.
I would say enforce max tire width, yes there is rolling resistance increase, example is CX where there is a rule for 33mm tires, and they still race on more technical terrain nowadays, and mainly would be designing courses better, avoiding parts with islands in the finish, or sharp narrowings of the road, and pros will push the absolute limit of the rules. When I got disc brake bike I was pushing corners alot more, especially in the rail comparing to carbon rims
BMX racing was crashfest city, lots of hitting, ouch, lol. And thanks for this chat, Chris. And I know the esthetic would change, but I'd still prefer that the riders bulk up a bit with protective gear and that bikes be able to bump into each other with fenders or fairings reducing tire touches and all that flippage. And the comparison I'd make is ice hockey. They are suited up to the nines, yet they are still super speedy and nimble on the ice. And wider tires would be a good start for safety and comfort and if they'd add some speedy zest, well, all the better for the duels on asphalt. 😀
@@ChrisHornerCycling Thanks, Chris, no argument tho' I think something, anything would be better than nothing, maybe start with shock-damping hip pads and shoulder cups over rotator cuffs. And maybe start with the roadie/gravel consumer marketplace. I even wore MX shoulder pads for awhile after I tore my right rotator cuff in a fall on heat-buckled asphalt on an afternoon commute in the late '90s. The plastic cups on either end were a comfort.
Everyone should start on dirt. Many, many riders, pros too, are simply terrible bike handlers. Chris, you ride moto, so you know how much you learn from that. It's invaluable.
Are there really more crashes now than 20-30 years ago? Do we have the numbers? Also, you are never going to eliminate all risk, so are we at levels where risk is acceptable?
What you're describing - increased safety measures induce riskier behavior - is known as the *Peltzman effect*. It's worth considering but I believe: gloves are the part of your helmet that you wear on your hands.
If you look back to the history of the Tour de France the following is the year and number of participants: 1947/100, 1957/120, 1967/130, 1972/132, 1977/100, 1982/169, 1987/207. This is a variable. The UCI reduced the number of participants per team from 9 to 8 this reduced the total size of the peloton. I have no idea what kind of road quieting engineering was being instituted in the first two decades after WWII but this certainly has been a fad with city and road engineers since the beginning of the 21st century. One of the oversights of such projects is their permanence and not being able to remove them for special events. Such as moving a building on flatbed trucks. If you look closely the Swiss removed some of their road quieting structures for the World Championships. You can see evidence of this where there is fresh black asphalt in the middle of the road. As far as I am aware of no one has performed an analysis of what is causing accidents in the World Tour events by carefully analyzing the unedited TV coverage and creating a database. The up-heave in turn at the Tour of the Basque Country was one problem. Has anyone thought about tubeless tires coming unseated during corning? There are a myriad reasons for crashes throughout the season and the UCI cannot begin to identify the largest reasons without data.
Good question. I don’t know yet. I know it’s coming soon though. All I know is that every year I start watching Tour Down Under and I think there is no way I’m going to cover this race. 😂👊
Basically I’m waiting to see what race is first that some major riders will all show up for at the same time so that it will make for an exciting video. 🤔👊👊
@@ChrisHornerCycling Chris my man lol not even 24 hours later you’re breaking down TDU! Could’ve given me a wink and a nod tho lol 😉👀🤫 Thanks for the content!!
As a former pro cyclist I totally agree!!! Areas that actually would result in less injuries and less serious ones: small peloton size. Less road furniture. Cancel steep narrow newly surfaced mountainous downhills in rain. One idea that helps would be racing attire that protects by sliding not grabbing. Teaching riders now to fall and minimize injuries helped us when we raced. Please do away with tubeless tires. They cause serious injuries.
I got a surly midnight special steel frame that I built. Can fit fat meats . I put 48mm slicks on. pump em up to 50 psi max. That thing with good disk brakes is down hill death ride. I can come up to a tight corner doing 70kph, pull the brakes hard enough that the rear wheel starts to leave the pavement, think that I am going to die and just lean it in and hope, The thing just sticks no matter how poorly I misjudge. I need to control myself every time I get to the top of a hill and look down! I have scared myself too many times and got away with it. no more .
About the final sprint. Organizers will always want to have them in the spiderweb of town stores. The teams want to have the avantage of their pricy selection and will never agree to loose their advantage. But why not there where possible an intermediate selection, let's say 15 miles from the finish where one has to qualify for the final sprint, so that a relatively small number go into the often dangerous last k's? There is no overall solution, so you have to look for details.
Chris you are right. Because in the Japanese Kieran they wear over size helmets, hip pads, some even have shoulder pads and they do be taking each other out.
Bit of a catch-22. It's similar to American football that the players are basically wearing a suit of armor so now the tackle at greater speeds and less regard. Maybe the way of making riders race safely is greater marshalling and real time and points penalties for reckless cycling.
Smaller peloton is always safer. But of course a smaller peloton would not make for exciting racing as often. And to be sure a smaller peloton does not look impressive on tv or in person. We would just have to watch tour of California with its smaller peloton to see the difference. 🤔👍
I have more experience with motorsport than with pushing the limits on bicycles, so you would definitely know better than me, but... With a bigger contact patch, the loss of traction is a little more gradual - there is more time to react to a perceived loss of traction - than with a smaller contact path. With the smaller contact, the time taken between the perceived loss of traction and the complete loss of traction - laying you and the bike down - is much shorter. What do you think? What's your experience?
The advancements in mountain biking tech and better geometry hasn't made it safer. People are riding more dangerous trails and going faster. I don't see why road biking would be different.
I think the wider tires argument still has merit. Yes they would push them to the limit, but they also push narrow tires to the limit. If you go through the corner on the limit at 33kph is that really any worse than going 31kph but still being at the limit of your control?
Chris, fundamentally, there are at least two things that can make racing safer: Better designed courses - avoiding signage, traffic circles, and the like, especially within the last 2 or 3 k when racing is at its most frantic. Included in this are appropriately padded safety barriers. Bike handling skills - I am not convinced that bike riders’ skills are a match for modern bikes and the higher speeds at which the peloton races. Even at the highest levels, it’s incredible that pros don’t seem to have appropriate bike handling skills, especially descending. Michael Woods was a terrible descender, and then he finally spent winter training practicing descending and it seems to have paid off. Additionally, it’s widely reported that cyclists no longer train in groups, and hence don’t get enough experience racing in tight formation, at speed. Maybe teams need to focus on this as much as they do on training, and alleged supplements like ketones. I don’t think there’s enough emphasis on this. Otherwise, I agree that if a racer thinks that their gear will be “safer” and allow faster speeds, they’ll go faster and take the additional risk.
The riders would be my 1 place to start for ideas. They need sponsorship to get this done from those who provide the revenue and profit. Good luck, the industries concern about riders got us to where we are today. Unfortunately no one with the money cares enough. And not because they need to protect their assets or business but because it’s people’s lives.
Slow slam down hard crashes can break bones just as much as fast ones can . Maybe any riders helpers or team cars causing crashes that are obvious should get the team point deductions or something like that !.
Upgrading riders based on their bike handling ability would help in the long run. There are too many zwift grown riders that have amazing power but cant handle their bike to save thier life. I grew up bmx so that ability was easy for me.
Make the peloton smaller.. Change the points system for races and spread points evenly over all races except say the big 3(Tours).. Kevlar reinforced clothing for the spine, scapula shoulder, sternum area as well as gloves(compulsory).. Kevlar elbow pads?
As far as protective gear goes, you only need to look at the NFL. As helmets became more robust and padded, players began using their heads as a weapon. Result is now a greater incidence of brain injuries due to continued use of the head. Also, F1 - drivers put their cars into gaps which they never used to because they feel (and are) way more protected.
My steel steerer tube snapped in 40 km/h and I didnt see it happening. What I did see was a small crowd standing around me and telling me to lie calm and wait for the Ambulance. It wasnt very bad. Only broken collarbone and smashed helmet, and some skindamage. I was riding a maybe 20 year old racebike, A DBS buildt by Daccordi. I guess the problem might have been material fatigue. Such fatigue is a known steel-weakness.
Want to slow the race down, forget about changing hardware How about breaking up the full peloton; let’s say 3 teams roll out; give an interval for the next group to go; and so on, this lessens the bunch. You still get the competition but it will slow the speeds. The biggest issue with crashes is a rapid acceleration deflection (up or down) and no time / space to account for it. Ok so it’s a crazy idea. Or simply end close drafting. No wheel can be closer than 3 feet unless overtaking.
Protective gear is a nah from me. These dudes used to rip through races with no helmets. You imagine them with full on MX gear? 😂 (I know it's more like the airbags etc.) Love the content Horners!
Cake and Eat it comes to mind with some of the comments here. On the one hand nobody likes boring and predictable racing. On the other hand pushing the limit of human achievement at high speed on open roads with it's various dangers means exciting racing. Making riders more capable riders and less ftp robots would help a lot. I cannot fathom why the main GC contenders were all lined up on a fast descent last year. It's a total rookie move . Yes add crash protection in key areas for sure - and keep crowds back or face legal consequences, but at the end of the day teaching actual bike handling skills would be your number one defence against most of these crashes.
I not a cycling expert not even a pro but i've seen a lot of crashes in the last 10 years and it was not like that in 80's, 90's, 2000's. I dont know if are the "new guys" with stupid moves, or the equipment, or something else. Remember Lemond 10 year ago saying cycling is not becoming easyer but becoming faster. Maybe lookin for some statistics data we can find out.
I would guess there are more crashes these days but not by some crazy bigger numbers. I believe there is more road furniture on the course and that the peleton is a bit more even in fitness these days, which would make the peloton wider more often. 🤔👍
I understand that protective gear is complicated and that it might not solve the issue, but weren’t this arguments also used for helmets? (overheating, less scared of crashing…). I always thought that some sort of mandatory protection in points vulnerable to crash could avoid some broken bones…
Good evening Chris.....in my opinion it all starts with attitude.....like I said yesterday.....the main issue nowadays seems to be the lack of respect for eachother......
I have been riding with hip-padded shorts for years now (G-Form and other brands); can't even feel them once I start riding. Broken legs and collarbones hurt but usually heal completely. Breaking / dislocating your hip can be career ending or worse. Wearing these "passive safety" shorts has no negative impact on racers or group riding behavior.
Like the comment about "play chess". These guys that race know the risks . Some are more skilled than others . Racing at speed requires great concentration and one small lapse can have serious consequences. No one wants to crash obviously and we do not want to see riders injured but thats the nature of professional cycling. Let common sense prevail.
UCI and USCF could make it safer by not allowing riders to pedal through corners. Seen a few riders catch a pedal and then it gets sketchy after that. But seriously it is bicycle racing and racing has risk. Watching Chris doing the Butterfly Effect and commenting on a nice “safe” Century ride would be a risk to my sanity.
I think there is more crashes because younger riders and weaker teams do not have the respect for the elders the same way as before. In the old days, the top guys would look hard at a young rider coming up to the front and and basicly tell him to drop back. Now that respect is gone and everybody wants to be at the front. The fight for positions is harder and insidents happens more often. The roads they ride on has many unsafe places. Very often I watch a race and think, my lord, what a horrible place to have a race. Soo much road furniture.
Sagan was an epic big handler. I have no trouble believing it’s real. Based on the jersey, it’s 2016 or the later half of 2015. I don’t think it’s the Tour because the jersey is not green.
It's like how when F1 got safer cars and safer tracks, the drivers became more aggressive and more dangerous. Same thing will happen with cycling. Pro cyclists are already a little cooked in the head; they are already willing to take risks and "live dangerously," so-to-speak. Give them the perception that the racing is "safer", and 100% they will take more risks and push the limits more.
Love ya Chris but you are stretching this topic. Your basically saying to keep the sport unsafe to make it safer with a lot of hypotheticals. I think adding some basic protective gear might not be a bad idea. Your point about racers taking each other out because they are safer can easily be addressed with some basic rules. It’s worked in American football, dirt bikes etc. Cycling is the only racing with significant speed that is done without basic protective gear. I agree that anything that slows the peloton down will cause more big group racing like on flat stages which can cause more accidents. So keep the speed high and add basic pad protection.
That could be true but we know 100% already that if an athlete knows he’s won’t get hurt badly. Look out because the crashes are coming. Happy you are enjoying the channel. ❤️👊👊
@@AnahiltMGTrue I’m open to discussing but riders need to be personally responsible and paying attention. Seems quite a few accidents are caused by inattentive cyclist
Couldn't you just give more money to the other disciplines and decrease the amount for GC, stage wins? I mean it could be done slightly differently but by increasing the prize money for the king of the mountains and best young rider you would effectively decrease the amount of riders/teams going for the same prize... Maybe economics is the solution.
I never really looked at the prize money as motivation while racing in Europe. I’m sure some riders do and from time to time I counted or looked at the money but only after we were near the finish and already winning a classification, not as reason to go after that classification win. 🤔👍
How did the UCI not come up with nerf tires? Not just wider but energy sucking. hehehe Just pointing out how desperate they are to avoid making the courses better.
That dirt bike rider, now, I know nothing of this sport, but I am guessing he gets DQ-ed a lot, suspended, has inspired rule changes and so on? I watch that and think, if that were me, I'd be ashamed of myself.
Chris. I always enjoy your takes, but I think your point about safety equipment is flawed. Take helmets. Someone could have said exactly what you said before they made helmets mandatory. “Helmets won’t make things better because guys will just push the limit knowing they won’t get a head injury”.
You use the concept of moral hazard- do people drive faster on the snow because they have four wheel drive. I don't really agree with your arguments. If there were a similar invention to the helmet that could be mandated i'd support it but kevlar garments and air bag vests from motorcycles don't make the grade today because of heat and weight etc.. I'm just going to say it, selfishly, i don't want to see them go slower, to see the FKT on a segment have an asterisk. We get on bikes because we want to go fast. The UCI can help by forcing organisers to manage the courses better (obstacles, fans!, tarmac), and not putting forth stupid ideas about removing race radios, and ultimately insuring riders are wearing the proper sock length.
The best thing the UCI could do to make pro-cycling safer is to concentrate on making sure the routes are as safe as possible. Pick routes with less "road furniture" and where there are danger zones mark them clearly and put some sort of padding or barriers so riders don't fly off the road. The item they could do to make it less safe is to get rid of or limit race radios. There are probably some riders alive today because when they went off the road a fellow cyclist saw it and reported it on the radio.
I agree, I have this idea: maybe one radio channel for all riders and no team radio, so just a safety feature and not a tactical benefit
As reading some of the comments yesterday too and I was thinking the same thing Chris you nailed it again
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We just had a Chris & Garrett marathon (binge?!) after being away a few days. We prefer to watch on a big screen 🤓👍 Thanks both of you 👏👊
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I stopped racing not because of the speed but because of the dumb riding of riders in the peleton. Riders riding looking at their power meters, grabbing brakes and swerving. When I started we learned all about the etiquette of group riding and how to read race situations in all conditions. Now we see fit fast riders jump of their trainers straight in to races, they haven’t got the experience to see situations developing and they haven’t got the skills to ride in all conditions. Inexperienced riders, who are disrespectful and powerful is the toxic combination. It’s not the equipment.
I believe there is a lot of truth in this.
Riding with etiquette is not going to solve anything and will get riders less contracts. Everyone wants to win and to do that they need to be in the right position. This isn’t about the mistakes people make where they look over drift a few inches and they crash. It’s the racing for position that gets people crashed out. GC riders and sprinters and everyone in between do it. Lead out trains want to protect their wheels so no one jumps in. Lead outs to mountains same thing. The best team will get their gc rider up at the front away from the rest because of the chances of crashing when 3 riders try to go for the same space around a corner. If you play it safe you won’t win. There are many riders in the lower classifications that would do well in the pro peloton but they don’t have results to back up their watts. It all comes down to money. The team wants results because of the sponsors otherwise no more team.
A lot has changed even in 10 years smh
They are coming into the sport younger these days with a lot of power. Would be interesting to see what the average age is now compared to before at the very top level in the peloton. 🤔👍
*pelo as in velo
Chris, my input is that I think the UCI can do better by improving course selection, dealing with road furniture, and much more scrutiny and preparation of the last 3km of the race, especially sprint stages.
Your knowledge and historical memory is amazing. Love your videos
Thanks 👊👊
What Chris is talking about had been thoroughly researched by the insurance industry and is called "risk compensation." It is absolutely true that, as people feel safer in an activity, they will take more risks. For example, if road cyclists wore gear that they believed would lessen crash injuries, they will be less fearful of crashing and thus take more risks. It's science. Social science, anyway
Keirin in Japan. good protection. Not lower speed. That said, very little tech improvements there other the years. Highly controlled.
I dunno, I bailed on USCF crit racing in '84 after a crash in Northern Virginia. I flipped and bent a steel frame and figured, with no protection, not worth the risk tho' I was just shy of advancing to Cat. 2 and loved the scene. And I had worn gear in BMX and MX. And somehow, roadies were made to wear something more than flimsy hairnets. But I won my first race as an American teen in '75 in West Germany with only the wind parting my hair as I sped solo to the finish. Glad I got to win a few races with that OG style. 😀
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I really admire the quality of this video. Well done 👏 👍
Yeah I have to agree the wider tires would just make them go faster and you get so much more control. I have riden my gravel bike on a lot of the classic cols in the Alps and with my 42 mm slick tires I was able to go a lot faster in corners than guys with skinny tires.
He did say that slowing the peloton down was what causes crashes. So let them ride wider tires and hold better speed through the turns heh.
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as a fellow cyclist that follows dirt bike racing, i love the supercross reference here. spot on and valid.
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Hay Marc Soler and the team had a nice start to the season. Getting excited!
Yes they did 👊👊
About the wider tires incentivizing faster turns. It's not the planned turns that they're worried about. It's the wider tires ability to correct mistakes. Like overcooking a turn on a descent.
Wider tires as I said would have a lot of positives. 🤔👍
Still to Chris's point, they'll push limits regardless
Thanks Chris and Garrett!
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I agree with the comments about making the courses safer where they really need to be. Use better barricades with to protrusions,. In tight, high speed turns something softer, right off the course to hit, not forcing a bunch sprint into a narrowing road, or a tight after toward the finish. Very clearly marked traffic furniture and lay a very specific path where there's plenty of it. Just some common sense planning while laying out a course.
I see some comments that imply no changes can or should be made to make riding safer. Hell, I remember when no one wore helmets. A few riders started showing up with them and the debate then raged, should they be mandatory. Helmets are mandatory and there are a number of riders and ex riders currently on this side of the lawn that would have been under it without helmets. Of course more safety is possible. The trick is, every change has unintended consequences that may nullify the actual intention of the change. I think what Chris is saying is spend a little time making more of the unintended consequences intended ones before making a change.
That sounds right. 👊👊
I'm with you on tires.
To me the main thing with protective gear is that I have no idea what could reasonably work. I disagree with you somewhat, protective gear works. Helms did save quite a few lives so far and didn't cause lots of additional crashes. But beyond that? What would that protective gear be? Imo there is no common, dangerous injury that can be prevented by a reasonably convenient piece of equipment.
What needs to improve is road selection and preparation as well as the rules. Don't run crazy dangerous roads, make them as safe as possible. Do something against reckless cycling, especially in the sprints. Maybe athletes need to be DQ'ed more often. Relegations do nothing against reckless lead-out riders.
I have a set of Zipp road wheels to make an extra road bike out of my cyclocross bike in the summer. I can confirm that once the 33mm grippy mud tires on aluminum rims go back on in the fall, I get a lot less cautious (probably something to do with the fact that the aluminum rims are about 2k cheaper than the Zipps, so the cost of a hitting a tree root or a rock you didn't see is much more acceptable).
I notice the same thing, it's probably because you don't have to search the apex of every corner for that one loose rock that will cause you to washout.
We all do it. 😂👊👊
What I would like to see is removable road furniture. If a road or town has too much or dangerous road furniture then it should be excluded from the race. That would force some cities n towns to rethink and plan for removable road furniture in urban settings.
Clean up road furniture on the routes. Certainly near the points that the peloton heats up and blind corners.
Whenever I have taken my bike to ride in the south of France on tour routes it’s amazing how much of it there is.
And so many drivers in Italy and Spain killing riders on training rides
Agreed. No down side to a safe course. 👊
Interesting observation. Now that I am mostly riding a gravel bike with 35’s on the road I noticed it changes the way I ride. I’m not careless or a risky I just know the bike setup can handle whatever’s in the road. That and if you really want to progress your bike handling skills go on a gravel group ride.
“Pushing the envelope” spot on words
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One more comment. Chris, you said that we couldn’t use safety equipment due to the weight. If everyone has to wear it, then it’s a level playing field…..AND…..the manufacturers will pour $ and R&D into making them lighter, cooler, and safer. That trickles down to guys like us. It happened with bikes, clothes, helmets, etc etc.
I would say enforce max tire width, yes there is rolling resistance increase, example is CX where there is a rule for 33mm tires, and they still race on more technical terrain nowadays, and mainly would be designing courses better, avoiding parts with islands in the finish, or sharp narrowings of the road, and pros will push the absolute limit of the rules.
When I got disc brake bike I was pushing corners alot more, especially in the rail comparing to carbon rims
Yup, wider tires slows you down, might even create mechanicle problems with those elite, light bikes too
Pro CycleRollerballing!
Exactly 👍
It's called Peltzman Effect and Risk Compensation.
BMX racing was crashfest city, lots of hitting, ouch, lol. And thanks for this chat, Chris. And I know the esthetic would change, but I'd still prefer that the riders bulk up a bit with protective gear and that bikes be able to bump into each other with fenders or fairings reducing tire touches and all that flippage. And the comparison I'd make is ice hockey. They are suited up to the nines, yet they are still super speedy and nimble on the ice. And wider tires would be a good start for safety and comfort and if they'd add some speedy zest, well, all the better for the duels on asphalt. 😀
It works in ice hockey because the arena is really cold with tons of time outs taken. In cycling they would over heat immediately. 🤔👍
@@ChrisHornerCycling Thanks, Chris, no argument tho' I think something, anything would be better than nothing, maybe start with shock-damping hip pads and shoulder cups over rotator cuffs. And maybe start with the roadie/gravel consumer marketplace. I even wore MX shoulder pads for awhile after I tore my right rotator cuff in a fall on heat-buckled asphalt on an afternoon commute in the late '90s. The plastic cups on either end were a comfort.
great take
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Everyone should start on dirt. Many, many riders, pros too, are simply terrible bike handlers.
Chris, you ride moto, so you know how much you learn from that. It's invaluable.
Maybe limit the peloton width to four wide in narrow or single lane roads and three wide per traffic lane on double lane and wider roads
Are there really more crashes now than 20-30 years ago? Do we have the numbers?
Also, you are never going to eliminate all risk, so are we at levels where risk is acceptable?
Would be interesting to have a Chris Horer story time on this. Also for MotoGP, VR46 is the goat.
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What you're describing - increased safety measures induce riskier behavior - is known as the *Peltzman effect*. It's worth considering but I believe: gloves are the part of your helmet that you wear on your hands.
More on protective gear. It is a Team event, you might get 'enforcer' domestiques who's job is to take out the other condenders on a sprint.
If you look back to the history of the Tour de France the following is the year and number of participants: 1947/100, 1957/120, 1967/130, 1972/132, 1977/100, 1982/169, 1987/207. This is a variable. The UCI reduced the number of participants per team from 9 to 8 this reduced the total size of the peloton. I have no idea what kind of road quieting engineering was being instituted in the first two decades after WWII but this certainly has been a fad with city and road engineers since the beginning of the 21st century. One of the oversights of such projects is their permanence and not being able to remove them for special events. Such as moving a building on flatbed trucks.
If you look closely the Swiss removed some of their road quieting structures for the World Championships. You can see evidence of this where there is fresh black asphalt in the middle of the road. As far as I am aware of no one has performed an analysis of what is causing accidents in the World Tour events by carefully analyzing the unedited TV coverage and creating a database. The up-heave in turn at the Tour of the Basque Country was one problem. Has anyone thought about tubeless tires coming unseated during corning? There are a myriad reasons for crashes throughout the season and the UCI cannot begin to identify the largest reasons without data.
Amazing pic at the end. I think that is Peter Sagan.
Yep. 👍
Oh hell yeah, drifting corners in the tour de France downhills. Black short track! 😅
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Tubeless and sealant, is that less safe the skinnier the tyre and the higher the pressure?
Great to have you back! What 2025 race will be the first you guys breakdown?
Good question. I don’t know yet. I know it’s coming soon though. All I know is that every year I start watching Tour Down Under and I think there is no way I’m going to cover this race. 😂👊
Basically I’m waiting to see what race is first that some major riders will all show up for at the same time so that it will make for an exciting video. 🤔👊👊
@@ChrisHornerCycling Chris my man lol not even 24 hours later you’re breaking down TDU! Could’ve given me a wink and a nod tho lol 😉👀🤫
Thanks for the content!!
As a former pro cyclist I totally agree!!! Areas that actually would result in less injuries and less serious ones: small peloton size. Less road furniture. Cancel steep narrow newly surfaced mountainous downhills in rain. One idea that helps would be racing attire that protects by sliding not grabbing. Teaching riders now to fall and minimize injuries helped us when we raced. Please do away with tubeless tires. They cause serious injuries.
Get rid of disc brakes, bring back the pro tuck, have more pads on the exits
I got a surly midnight special steel frame that I built. Can fit fat meats . I put 48mm slicks on. pump em up to 50 psi max. That thing with good disk brakes is down hill death ride. I can come up to a tight corner doing 70kph, pull the brakes hard enough that the rear wheel starts to leave the pavement, think that I am going to die and just lean it in and hope, The thing just sticks no matter how poorly I misjudge. I need to control myself every time I get to the top of a hill and look down! I have scared myself too many times and got away with it. no more .
About the final sprint. Organizers will always want to have them in the spiderweb of town stores. The teams want to have the avantage of their pricy selection and will never agree to loose their advantage. But why not there where possible an intermediate selection, let's say 15 miles from the finish where one has to qualify for the final sprint, so that a relatively small number go into the often dangerous last k's? There is no overall solution, so you have to look for details.
Chris you are right. Because in the Japanese Kieran they wear over size helmets, hip pads, some even have shoulder pads and they do be taking each other out.
Add some durable material(kevlar/carbon fiber) to at least protect from road rash
Roller derby all over again. Hopefully we don’t go there. 😬👍
Bit of a catch-22. It's similar to American football that the players are basically wearing a suit of armor so now the tackle at greater speeds and less regard.
Maybe the way of making riders race safely is greater marshalling and real time and points penalties for reckless cycling.
The best thing the UCI could do for safety is hire Chris to do all their thinking for them.
Similar to how F1 moved from slick to grooved tyre: cars were going too fast!
Interesting video! Would reducing the amount of teams on the road help with the safety issue? (While maybe increasing the number of riders/team?)
Smaller peloton is always safer. But of course a smaller peloton would not make for exciting racing as often. And to be sure a smaller peloton does not look impressive on tv or in person. We would just have to watch tour of California with its smaller peloton to see the difference. 🤔👍
I have more experience with motorsport than with pushing the limits on bicycles, so you would definitely know better than me, but...
With a bigger contact patch, the loss of traction is a little more gradual - there is more time to react to a perceived loss of traction - than with a smaller contact path.
With the smaller contact, the time taken between the perceived loss of traction and the complete loss of traction - laying you and the bike down - is much shorter.
What do you think? What's your experience?
The advancements in mountain biking tech and better geometry hasn't made it safer. People are riding more dangerous trails and going faster. I don't see why road biking would be different.
Exactly 👊👊
Thanks Chris for not being the old guy saying, "back in my day, blah, blah..."
I think the wider tires argument still has merit.
Yes they would push them to the limit, but they also push narrow tires to the limit. If you go through the corner on the limit at 33kph is that really any worse than going 31kph but still being at the limit of your control?
Chris, fundamentally, there are at least two things that can make racing safer:
Better designed courses - avoiding signage, traffic circles, and the like, especially within the last 2 or 3 k when racing is at its most frantic. Included in this are appropriately padded safety barriers.
Bike handling skills - I am not convinced that bike riders’ skills are a match for modern bikes and the higher speeds at which the peloton races. Even at the highest levels, it’s incredible that pros don’t seem to have appropriate bike handling skills, especially descending. Michael Woods was a terrible descender, and then he finally spent winter training practicing descending and it seems to have paid off. Additionally, it’s widely reported that cyclists no longer train in groups, and hence don’t get enough experience racing in tight formation, at speed. Maybe teams need to focus on this as much as they do on training, and alleged supplements like ketones. I don’t think there’s enough emphasis on this.
Otherwise, I agree that if a racer thinks that their gear will be “safer” and allow faster speeds, they’ll go faster and take the additional risk.
Cross tires are limited at 33mm width max so road tires at 32mm min?
The riders would be my 1 place to start for ideas. They need sponsorship to get this done from those who provide the revenue and profit. Good luck, the industries concern about riders got us to where we are today. Unfortunately no one with the money cares enough. And not because they need to protect their assets or business but because it’s people’s lives.
Slow slam down hard crashes can break bones just as much as fast ones can . Maybe any riders helpers or team cars causing crashes that are obvious should get the team point deductions or something like that !.
Upgrading riders based on their bike handling ability would help in the long run.
There are too many zwift grown riders that have amazing power but cant handle their bike to save thier life.
I grew up bmx so that ability was easy for me.
Who is that rider in the video title leaning in like that?
Make the peloton smaller.. Change the points system for races and spread points evenly over all races except say the big 3(Tours).. Kevlar reinforced clothing for the spine, scapula shoulder, sternum area as well as gloves(compulsory).. Kevlar elbow pads?
As far as protective gear goes, you only need to look at the NFL. As helmets became more robust and padded, players began using their heads as a weapon. Result is now a greater incidence of brain injuries due to continued use of the head.
Also, F1 - drivers put their cars into gaps which they never used to because they feel (and are) way more protected.
i don't think thats true, brain injuries forced the NFL to change the helmets, the couldn't afford the lawsuits with the rate of injury at that time
@Rich-zb7vc no. You are not thinking far enough back to when the NFL didn't even use helmets.
@@rayF4rio I was at the NFL
@@Rich-zb7vc 👍. Ouch. 😂
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How about steel frames? A little less aero to slow things down maybe 0.5 km/hr, and I've never seen a steel steerer tube snap.
My steel steerer tube snapped in 40 km/h and I didnt see it happening. What I did see was a small crowd standing around me and telling me to lie calm and wait for the Ambulance. It wasnt very bad. Only broken collarbone and smashed helmet, and some skindamage. I was riding a maybe 20 year old racebike, A DBS buildt by Daccordi. I guess the problem might have been material fatigue. Such fatigue is a known steel-weakness.
@@erlendsteren9466 I stand corrected. Glad injury wasn't worse. Cheers.
Thanks. I'm hoping you can talk about adding Fomula1 furniture.
Do you think we'll ever see pros drifting in corners? 😂
If the tires got way wider we might. But I don’t believe it will happen in road cycling. 🤔👊
I think smart course design is by far the best safety protocol they can insert going forward...everything else is at the margin.
Agreed. Theres nothing wrong with have a good course. 👊👊
it make sense, may be that's because rim brakes will be considered to be welcome back ;)
Yeah really good points. Racing will always be dangerous.
Always. 🤔👍
Want to slow the race down, forget about changing hardware How about breaking up the full peloton; let’s say 3 teams roll out; give an interval for the next group to go; and so on, this lessens the bunch. You still get the competition but it will slow the speeds. The biggest issue with crashes is a rapid acceleration deflection (up or down) and no time / space to account for it. Ok so it’s a crazy idea. Or simply end close drafting. No wheel can be closer than 3 feet unless overtaking.
Protective gear is a nah from me. These dudes used to rip through races with no helmets. You imagine them with full on MX gear? 😂 (I know it's more like the airbags etc.) Love the content Horners!
I remember those days. 😬👊👊
Cake and Eat it comes to mind with some of the comments here. On the one hand nobody likes boring and predictable racing. On the other hand pushing the limit of human achievement at high speed on open roads with it's various dangers means exciting racing. Making riders more capable riders and less ftp robots would help a lot. I cannot fathom why the main GC contenders were all lined up on a fast descent last year. It's a total rookie move . Yes add crash protection in key areas for sure - and keep crowds back or face legal consequences, but at the end of the day teaching actual bike handling skills would be your number one defence against most of these crashes.
Right again, mi amigo!!!! Why not just use 48's, full pads, and go full Evil Knievel !!!!
A kit made of 100 dollar bills is the only armor that would work.
I not a cycling expert not even a pro but i've seen a lot of crashes in the last 10 years and it was not like that in 80's, 90's, 2000's. I dont know if are the "new guys" with stupid moves, or the equipment, or something else. Remember Lemond 10 year ago saying cycling is not becoming easyer but becoming faster. Maybe lookin for some statistics data we can find out.
I would guess there are more crashes these days but not by some crazy bigger numbers. I believe there is more road furniture on the course and that the peleton is a bit more even in fitness these days, which would make the peloton wider more often. 🤔👍
What if you reduced the number of gears. This would produce tired legs and more people in the groupetto.😂
Yes. That would be safer. 😂👊💪
Back to 19mm tires at 100psi. weve come full circle
Maybe not 19 mm again please. 🤪👊
I understand that protective gear is complicated and that it might not solve the issue, but weren’t this arguments also used for helmets? (overheating, less scared of crashing…). I always thought that some sort of mandatory protection in points vulnerable to crash could avoid some broken bones…
Chris Horner: "The UCI Can't "Solve" Safety, neither DeSolve Safe Tea."
Love a good cup of tea ☕️ 🤪
Good evening Chris.....in my opinion it all starts with attitude.....like I said yesterday.....the main issue nowadays seems to be the lack of respect for eachother......
That certain would help. 🤔👊👊👊
This sport is like any sport that all about mph. Dangerous! So let’s except safety can never be fixed
I have been riding with hip-padded shorts for years now (G-Form and other brands); can't even feel them once I start riding. Broken legs and collarbones hurt but usually heal completely. Breaking / dislocating your hip can be career ending or worse. Wearing these "passive safety" shorts has no negative impact on racers or group riding behavior.
Protective gear can create a false sense of security like football helmets.
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Like the comment about "play chess". These guys that race know the risks . Some are more skilled than others . Racing at speed requires great concentration and one small lapse can have serious consequences. No one wants to crash obviously and we do not want to see riders injured but thats the nature of professional cycling. Let common sense prevail.
I loved the risk part. 👍
UCI and USCF could make it safer by not allowing riders to pedal through corners. Seen a few riders catch a pedal and then it gets sketchy after that. But seriously it is bicycle racing and racing has risk. Watching Chris doing the Butterfly Effect and commenting on a nice “safe” Century ride would be a risk to my sanity.
I think there is more crashes because younger riders and weaker teams do not have the respect for the elders the same way as before. In the old days, the top guys would look hard at a young rider coming up to the front and and basicly tell him to drop back. Now that respect is gone and everybody wants to be at the front. The fight for positions is harder and insidents happens more often. The roads they ride on has many unsafe places. Very often I watch a race and think, my lord, what a horrible place to have a race. Soo much road furniture.
Ditch the disc brakes and go back to rim brakes
that picture of sagan is photoshopped for sure Lol
Sagan was an epic big handler. I have no trouble believing it’s real. Based on the jersey, it’s 2016 or the later half of 2015. I don’t think it’s the Tour because the jersey is not green.
@@JMcLeodKC711 I found the original, thumbnail is a photoshopped version to increase the cornering lean angle by about 30 degrees.
Probably. 👍
It's like how when F1 got safer cars and safer tracks, the drivers became more aggressive and more dangerous. Same thing will happen with cycling. Pro cyclists are already a little cooked in the head; they are already willing to take risks and "live dangerously," so-to-speak. Give them the perception that the racing is "safer", and 100% they will take more risks and push the limits more.
The UCI banned 19mm tires?
No. Just no one uses them anymore. 🤔👍
@ ah I misunderstood. Appreciate your perspective!
Love ya Chris but you are stretching this topic. Your basically saying to keep the sport unsafe to make it safer with a lot of hypotheticals. I think adding some basic protective gear might not be a bad idea. Your point about racers taking each other out because they are safer can easily be addressed with some basic rules. It’s worked in American football, dirt bikes etc. Cycling is the only racing with significant speed that is done without basic protective gear.
I agree that anything that slows the peloton down will cause more big group racing like on flat stages which can cause more accidents. So keep the speed high and add basic pad protection.
That could be true but we know 100% already that if an athlete knows he’s won’t get hurt badly. Look out because the crashes are coming. Happy you are enjoying the channel. ❤️👊👊
Reducing gear ratios is rediculous
Can’t protect everyone from everything…
True that. 🤔👍
But you can do things to make things safer. Formula 1 did that.
@@AnahiltMGTrue I’m open to discussing but riders need to be personally responsible and paying attention. Seems quite a few accidents are caused by inattentive cyclist
Chris, you mentioned you didn't wear gloves. I don't think they make in your size. Man...your hands are BIG😅
Couldn't you just give more money to the other disciplines and decrease the amount for GC, stage wins? I mean it could be done slightly differently but by increasing the prize money for the king of the mountains and best young rider you would effectively decrease the amount of riders/teams going for the same prize... Maybe economics is the solution.
I never really looked at the prize money as motivation while racing in Europe. I’m sure some riders do and from time to time I counted or looked at the money but only after we were near the finish and already winning a classification, not as reason to go after that classification win. 🤔👍
First 🎉 👊 l🦋❤️
THart 🏆👊👊👊👊❤️👊👊👊👊
How did the UCI not come up with nerf tires? Not just wider but energy sucking. hehehe Just pointing out how desperate they are to avoid making the courses better.
So by your reasoning riders shouldn’t wear helmets either because that makes them ride more recklessly?
I heard on GCN the wider tires are faster. That's why I'm taking my FatBike to the next office park crit. They never know what hit em ; -)
wider tires are faster, but they aren't more comfortable than skinnier tires
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That dirt bike rider, now, I know nothing of this sport, but I am guessing he gets DQ-ed a lot, suspended, has inspired rule changes and so on? I watch that and think, if that were me, I'd be ashamed of myself.
Your pro riders need to be better when racing against amateur cyclocross & mountain bikers like Wout van Aert & Mateiu Van der Poel l.
Chris. I always enjoy your takes, but I think your point about safety equipment is flawed. Take helmets. Someone could have said exactly what you said before they made helmets mandatory. “Helmets won’t make things better because guys will just push the limit knowing they won’t get a head injury”.
You use the concept of moral hazard- do people drive faster on the snow because they have four wheel drive. I don't really agree with your arguments. If there were a similar invention to the helmet that could be mandated i'd support it but kevlar garments and air bag vests from motorcycles don't make the grade today because of heat and weight etc.. I'm just going to say it, selfishly, i don't want to see them go slower, to see the FKT on a segment have an asterisk. We get on bikes because we want to go fast. The UCI can help by forcing organisers to manage the courses better (obstacles, fans!, tarmac), and not putting forth stupid ideas about removing race radios, and ultimately insuring riders are wearing the proper sock length.
I live in Bend Oregon and without a doubt you drive faster with all wheel drive and studded tires while on ice roads. 🤔👍
But I agree 100% about safer courses. 👊👊
Too many wannabees cause hazardous and dangerous situations....
Exactly 👍