I Ditched My Marzocchi Z1 Coil Fork - Here's Why
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- Like a new romance, the Z1 wooed me initially. I loved the traction and supple ride, but with time and experience, my initial joy started to fade. I realized that coil forks can have some shortcomings - it may not affect everyone, but it could affect you (like it did me). Tell me your thoughts and where to ride next in the comments below!
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It’s great to be back after a refreshing break - thanks for being here with me and I look forward to seeing you all again soon 🤘🏼 hope you enjoy the vid
Funny how I moved from Zeb to Z1 Coil, put the firm spring first thing and I do not miss my Zeb at all. The reason I got the Z1 was because the Zeb steerer was creaking and wanted to ride while I warrantied my Zeb. Never installed the Zeb on my fork after all. This fork feels superb on very harsh terrain, I rarely feel any hand fatigue(except I'm really tired). Probably does not ride as high as the Zeb, and it's not that stiff but this thing works great for me. I honestly believe I got lucky with the spring rate, but obviously with 4 springs it does not work for everyone.
I think that you can convert from coil back to air using the vorsprung kit since it has a sleeve fully covering the spring. Either way an expensive upgrade but I believe it would be a killer fork.
It looks and sounds like you’re under sprung up front. I’d say the next spring rate up will solve most of your woes with that
It may be harsh because you’re catching bumps too deep in the travel, where you could be floating straight across them and carrying speed with the next rate up. It may lead to more harshness, but I think it will come up and suit your capabilities, and lead to a better ride for sure.
This is possible for sure, but I’ve been oversprung on an MRP ribbon coil fork in the past and that caused some bizarre feedback and even worse deficiencies… almost resulting in a couple crashes. Plus less predictable grip up front. Being at the lowest end of the medium spring, it’d be surprising to me if Marzocchi intended for a rider like me to be one spring firmer.
That said, I’ve always wondered how head angle might play a factor in their spring weight chart - I feel that’s an important variable that is left out because HA can greatly effect how much weight you’re putting over the front. Of course we adapt our body position to account for this, but I’m still curious.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts
@@GlobalTrailGuide yeah thats a good point. You don’t wanna be on the other end of the scale either too stiff. How you getting on with the new Zeb with some time on it now?
I don’t have the new new zeb with the butter cups. My Torque 29 came with the older zeb. But the zeb is an incredible fork and an awesome value, I love the “old” model and have zero complaints. Haven’t had a chance to try the newest version yet
Have you ever experimented with fork oil weights and volumes? Increasing the volume of oil will help hold the fork up in the stroke and decrease bottoming resistance.Decreasing the weight of the oil or increasing the weight will quicken or slow down the action of the fork. IE: fasten or slow down the rebound and compression circuits. The spring rate determines the stiffness.
Theory, volume spacers don’t change the mid stroke but the ramp up
Coil has more mid stoke support as the spring is linear while air is harsher, regressive and then progressive 🧐
I guess with the right spring it would’ve been better ( perhaps a push spring that in theory should fit the marzocchi but have plenty more spring rates )
That ramp up from volume spacers (or additional psi), offers more control to keep the fork out of its mid stroke as often though - no? In this vid you can even see how deep the fork is, quite regularly, and on tame terrain.
Good to know about push springs, may need to look into that
@@GlobalTrailGuide yeah, the z1 seems like a good idea but poorly executed
The Vorsprung Smashpot offers 5lb increments on springs
Push 10 if I’m not mistaken, I think that to be good with the z1 you must be lucky to be perfect for one of the 4 springs available
@@TheMTBRider96 Ive also seen people change to grip2 damper and they say that its much improved
My guess whould be, that your stack is to low. Considering, you are not even bottoming the spring, springrate is probably correct. But, during harder compression, migth feel, that your bars are too low. I had the same feeling, and was always "afradid" of using the travel, because it felt wierd. I raised my bars for cca 3cm and that did the trick. I can suddenly use more travel, without the wierd feeling of handlebars dissapering beneth me. just a guess :)
I heard this idea in one of the vorsprung videos, tried it, and am glad I did :)
I had the same issue with my Z1 on medium spring, went with hard spring (215lbs). Fixed my issue, still felt great but ! HSC and HSR felt not that great , switched to a Grip 2 damper to get the adjustment I need and its been wonderful since
@GlobalTrailGuide I live in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado and ride mostly chunky, hard edged, sharp angled rocks (because of the Rocky Mountains LOL) and I'm wondering if the Z1 Coil would be a good solution for me. I currently ride a Specialized Evo Stumpy and have a Fox 36 Performance (GRIP) fork. I realize the stiction just bounces me off of rocks, I've gone with higher and lower PSIs, etc. to try to make it a softer/smoother ride without making bottom-out a typical reality. So, I've been thinking about getting a coil fork.
From your experience, do you think that it would be a solid choice for me, given my terrain and desire for smoothness over super steep, rocky, and rough trails?
Thanks ahead + thank you for this great video!
I’m not certain I’ve experienced stiction bouncing me off of things… I have experienced rebound bouncing me off of things. Have you tried adjusting your rebound? Additionally riding style/form and staying loose can help with staying on a line as well. If you get nervous or lack confidence, your body will become stiff and your bike won’t behave as smoothly as it could otherwise.
If you’re struggling to get pressures set right, you can try volume spacers as well. However, a coil fork can certainly make it feel like you’re front tire is glued to the ground, which can provide more confidence and result in better riding form. Plus the Z1 is crazy cheap right now - so if you want to give it a go, why not!
I ride a Z1 coil and found that I could get it to ride noticeably higher by simply adding preload, without becoming harsh. I am between medium and firm spring but I actually prefer medium spring with max preload. It bottoms out way too easy with any spring so that is not a reason to go up in spring rate, but adding compression damping approx 50-60% adds just enough resistance, so that it won't easily bottom out and still be pretty supple. People who say they never bottom theirs, I gotta wonder how they ride tbh. I'm not a particularly hard hitting rider.
Did you need to do the Grip2 damper conversion perhaps? I've just recently watched a video about it, and understand it's potentially of most use to heavier OR light but above average aggression riders.
This could allow you to keep the small bump response, but damp the bigger movements better.
Edit: oic this has already been discussed.
As you’ve seen in other comments, would love to try but wish grip 2 wasn’t so expensive!
mmhhh...I still feel the coil to be superior, but if you're in between springrates, that may be an issue. Before ditching the Z1 Coil i would test different springs, i.e. the helm springs or Vorsprung or other. I just love coil so much. In my case actually, it is the opposite. Being a heavier rider (220lbs) i have to over token and pressure the ZEB. So it is much harsher (over pressured) or delivers far less mid stroke support( under pressured). At your weight however you are perfect in line fore the air fork designs.
Thanks for sharing your own experience, interesting to hear another take from the other end of the spectrum. I still have my Z1 on standby because the used market for bike parts is whack now 😅
I have a 2013 float fit CTD. I was able to stop diving through my travel by adding some oil to my air chamber. The fork was pre NA2 so no tokens at the time. They have them now but I'd have to dump money into the fork. Sucks cuz it's a factory version. But I'm looking at the Z1 Air. I'm also an aggressive lite rider. So I've had trouble dialing suspension at times
Did you not get much more support from changing the damping and rebound setting to suit? I’m right in the middle of the weight range for the firm spring and find it so much better than the air Z1. and I ran 3 volume spacers in that. The only reason id change is for the 38mm Stantions over the 36, plus the weight saving . Cheers from Aus
Not in my experience, as I’d increase damping the fork would also lose its butteriness off the top, and start feeling harsh in a hurry. I assume some of that is my relative low weight compared to the spring.
Good to know that you prefer it over the air Z1. I haven’t personally been able to try it, but prefer the ability to make small incremental adjustments on the fly. I never minded the weight of the coil due to that ground hugging feel you can’t get with an air fork - that aspect is certainly nice!
Do you think Smashpot on the Z1 could have helped you? Again it’s a $400 upgrade, but could help dial in that coil size better. And eliminate the ramp up air chamber.
I have not used a smashpot so I can’t say, but I’d imagine it would make an improvement.
@@GlobalTrailGuide Fair enough, I might have to call Steve and have a chat 😁
Testing the new Charger 3 upgrade kit could be nice idea.
I would love to feel those buttercups!
At 80Kg I am right at the bottom of the firm coil for the Z1 and it feels perfect (in bike park g-outs too) .
I am thinking on putting one on my e-bike too and probably I would go to the heavy coil due to the added 10Kg of the ebike. I am not sure about the stiffness though for an ebike... I think it would be fine, we were all fine 2 years ago on the Fox 36 after all ..
Thanks for sharing your experience, you’ll have to let me know how it goes if you try it on your ebike. I’m curious if that will push you over the threshold or not.
For me it wasn’t the g-outs that were problematic, but instead just how deep it sat in its travel under light intensity trail / steeps. Especially in the steeps was my biggest complaint, it dove hard under braking and there’s nothing you can do to increase support.
But I fully understand the 36 vs 38 debacle… I was on the same train as you. Especially as a lightweight tall guy, when 38mm forks were released I was vocal about how silly I thought they were - “no one’s asking for a stiffer fork except maybe the most elite pros, lighter riders will never notice a difference”… but I’ll admit, I was wrong. I’m a big fan, and I can tell a difference. I agree it’s fairly marginal, but it’s there. A 38mm fork holds a line much better and tracks more consistently through corners (that’s the primary benefit I’ve noticed)
@@GlobalTrailGuide I generally prefer a little rougher ride on air, I run 20-22% sag rear and less than 20 front :O ...
With the coil I never blow through travel. I never feel I am sitting too deep into the travel, but it's 180mm travel and it's a Nomad 5 with low chip... so it would take a lot to "un-slacken" that bike to begin with :)
@@denesk2794 yeah, I run pretty stiff with an air spring when I’m trying to go fast too
And I feel you, I’ve been running this 170mm on my 63.5 HA Torque 😅 but I also like REALLY steep trails haha
I very much do agree with the comment section. Compression is your best friend on the Z1 Coil for midstroke support. I even converted mine with a grip 2 damper from a 36 for independant high and low speed adjustments, I gotta admit you almost need to run the compression at maximum to get really good support but its absolutely sick. Highly recommend it as a little project if you still have the Z1 Coil lying around.
Thanks for the input! I’ve heard the Grip 2 is a solid move for the Z1 Coil, but it’s such an expensive upgrade on an otherwise affordable and decent fork. I mentioned it in my initial fork review video, it’s hard for me to justify.
@@GlobalTrailGuide there's no need for any of that. The Grip piston is dished, remove the ring shim and add a couple of 7 or 8 mm OD shims to get rid of the preload. Then setup your stack to have digressive comp. damping. And keep your coil. Total cost is less than $10.
Or you can keep chasing your tail with different forks...
@@gmas135 your knowledge of fork internals is far greater than mine - have any service manuals or videos you can send?
Emailed you with all the info, since my comment somehow disappeared
@@gmas135 hey, thanks man! Much appreciated. I gave your email a quick review and will look more in depth in the future, and I’ll reach out if I need clarification.
I can still see both your comments in my YT app, but I’ll add that I don’t delete comments unless they’re severely inappropriate or hurtful to others - so it wasn’t me
Coil forks need progressive springs similar to coil shocks. Why is this not a thing?
Because air shocks are progressive naturally. Progressive coil spring is much more expensive to make compared to regular spring.
@@dmitryplatonov Makes sense but it seems they could have two springs in series with the second having a higher rate to keep from bottoming out. Similar designs are used in other industries. I guess there are aftermarket kits that do something similar that use an adjustable air spring in combination with linear spring.
@@mtbbiker6401 yes, 2-3 springs are possible. I think they are used in some motorcycle forks. It's increasing price, but hard to market (much easier to sell 5-way adjustments).
Why on earth can’t they simply wind the coil progressively tighter? That doesn’t sound complicated to me from a manufacturing standpoint.
Dude, I've literally just discovered that Marzocchi did a modern coil fork.
Must have been hibernating or something!
Back in the day, I owned a Fox 32 Vanilla and till this day, it was the best fork I have experienced, and it was about as basic as a fork could be!
No compression damping, just rebound and preload.
But the ride feel was just amazing and Fox kindly gave you 3 springs in the box so you could get the perfect setup without having to spend more money on extra springs.
Marzocchi should have done the same given the Fork isn't cheap and because, well you're the perfect example, you absolutely should be able to set up your brand new Fork right immediately out of the box, without having to go back to the retail store!
Personally I think that's a joke and at the very least they should send out a replacement spring if the stock one isn't right for your weight.
But I still can't believe that you'd rather an air Fork over the feel of a quality coil!
Looking at the brief glances of you riding the Marzocchi, it look pretty damn perfect to me in terms of it's movement.
Oddly, I ended up buying the Fox 36 Vanilla after my experience with the 32 and was mildly horrified that it didn't compare at all with the 32 Vanilla.
So, ultimately, who knows, I guess go with whatever you enjoy but I have found in my experience, that the more compression damping tech Forks have on board, the less responsive they become, so I'm typically happy with rebound and preload!
Thanks for sharing your insights! Cool how they used to send multiple springs back in the day. The coil fork certainly has some great qualities, don’t get me wrong at all. I’m very happy both options exist. But for me right now, I’ll stick with air
I Love My 160Z1 😎
Why wouldn't you just raise the bars or get higher rise?
When a fork is deeper in its travel it’s a harsher feeling. Plus bar height changes steering feel and grip
Isn't harsher midstroke an air fork quirk due to ramp up? @@GlobalTrailGuide
It's a fantastic fork until you try something like a well tuned DVO onyx, Zeb Ultimate charger 3.1 or a Formula Selva... It's not even close 😂
180 Enduro „Big Bike“
There are no big bikes anymore, since 27,5/29“ arived. Now a days there obly big wheels 😝😂😂
you forgot to say Z2 Air
I am sure the whole car and motorbike industry will soon shift over to Rock Shox and Fox air suspensions! We cannot be wrong with this stuff.
Fortunately the auto industry has the advantage of economies of scale… unfortunately Marzocchi didn’t see the market for that and didn’t offer enough coil spring options.
@@GlobalTrailGuide True, they have to run a business and thus have to follow the trend. Bad for us. We have less options.
Why buy a $45 spring when you can buy a $1k fork
I explained why a new spring won’t solve my problem. Additionally, I already had the Zeb (came with my bike), and it’s cheaper than $1k - especially in today’s market
@@GlobalTrailGuide but you didn't try it
@@GlobalTrailGuide I weigh 165lbs and run the stiff spring in my z1, You'd be surprised by how plush it still is I think
Konusu saçma olsa da akış güzel
sad
Let me get this straight: A coil fork doesn't have enough mid-stroke, so you change to an air fork. And you do that because you can't bother/afford to try a higher spring rate that costs $45, therefore you slap another fork which only costs 10-20 times more than a new spring. Yeah, it all makes plenty of sense.
Also, you mention that one way to "fix" your problem would be to be off your brakes. If your fork "doesn't have enough mid-stroke support" when you're on your brakes, that is a low-speed compression situation. You need more lsc. The problem with your lsc adjuster is that affects the entire stack, so more lsc will results in higher hsc, giving you a harsher ride. The problem is your damper, not your spring. Although I think you don't really care and this was just a lame excuse to "create more content".
Hey, let’s set the record straight. You’re ignoring everything I said about springs and my body weight - a heavier spring is not the solution for me. Additionally, the Zeb came with my bike… I already had it laying around (as a takeoff) and it cost me nothing additional. Plus, you’re leaving out the additional benefit of improved stiffness. Lastly, now I can sell a fork instead.
Speaking of spending money, grip 2 damper is an absurd $350, If you’d like to make a donation to support the channel, I’ll happily install and give a proper review with all possible upgrades. It’s called doing the best you can with the means you have available. Nonetheless, thank you for your feedback.
Just a thought while I'm low on funds n maybe jealous..when you've got the money is fun to get new shiney thing but broke it's a whole other video bought the stiffer spring and now the fork is sure enough useless and wasted time working on it to check it out. Or..
it's perfect and I go a lot faster saved a thou! If your mind is made up no use trying to change the mind And the WorK involved nope. I'm looking at the Fox 36 e optimized for my Specialized FS with added 2000 w hub and 60 v battery but the coil spring is now an option a coincidence I need the stiffer spring at 175 lbs and the added 45 ebike kit weight and I'm aggressive. I just thought coils were for cheap bikes sounds like the marchozzi z1 at $299 sale save $400+ is fine for me now thanks for the video. The fox 36 is on sale for $480 and I don't think I need it so much now n I'll save $200 but I'd have to get a 27.5 wheel tire tube disk brake. Idk what to do yet but keep watching learning. Thanks again for the video excellent work. For me It's nice not having to pedal ever wsp all hills it's all gas.. unless it breaks down..not yet 800 miles+. Does 41mph.
you should weigh 190. lay off the bike, gain weight, go back to coil. resume biking. be a man