You Can Run A Full X11 Session In Wayland?!?!
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2024
- XWayland is such a useful project to make Wayland in 2022 actually usable offering a compatibility layer or better yet a full Xorg server to run apps managed under Wayland but it can do more than I expected.
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omg that repeating part confused the hell out of me
Same I was wondering if I was crazy
Figured I rewound by accident
Did I make a mistake editing
@@BrodieRobertson At 3:53 the previous section where you spawned a rootful window repeats.
@@zeckma ah my bad
I always enjoy your Wayland coverage. Very entertaining :)
Weird when I keep hearing my name.
I did read about the devs adding rootfull windows in like the last month or two. At first it very much sounded like a "Why would you ever want to do this?" sort of thing. Keeping around old X11 WMs and DEs is not compelling - just run Xorg if that's what you want to do.
But the ability to clean up the driver situation actually makes sense
The driver situation has actually already been cleaned up in x11 with the modeset driver. The x11 modeset driver uses linux kms interface and opengl so it works on intel, amd (and nvidia, technically, with the recent support for wayland). This means that the x11 modeset driver works like wayland. This is actually what xwayland does exactly. All other x11 drivers can be deprecated.
somewhere in 3:40 theres was a editing mistake, i thought i was going crazy
Fun fact: you can run Wayland session as window in Xorg(or inside another wayland)
XDG_SESSION_TYPE=wayland kwin_wayland
this is slightly bloat version of commant,but it should work and start kde wayland
Combining this with Xwayland may ressurect Xzibit
That's part of the reason why you can embed wayland into the Windows environment
nested sessions are kind of a nice feature
Is it just me, or is there a clip twice around 4:20
Glitch in the Matrix. It's a dejavu.
That happens if the agents are hacking the surrounding.
Run.
not just you
3:54 to be more exact
@@guiorgy Exactly.
nah, you just deja vu'd
Now we just need an X11 implementation to run inside it where the root window is a TTY and all X and GL calls (translated through Zink to Vulkan) get rendered as text. Let's see if we can use the most layers of drivers and the most levels of indirection to get the least advanced "graphics" possible.
1st, take a look at void linux btw
you are indeed the first
When the guy saying first is actually the first lol
People are doing this on the Steam Deck to launch desktop mode (Xorg) from game mode (Wayland) without needing to reboot the deck
Why desktop mode on Xorg?
@@s9209122222 probably because Valve didn't trust KDE's Wayland mode to be reliable enough for them. KDE Wayland is still pretty broken
When I switched to sway about 18 months ago, most of my applications were running under XWayland. Nowadays, they are the exception and it would probably take me a long time to notice if XWayland was not there.
Also, in Sway there is an easy way to differentiate X11 and Wayland windows using the 'for_window' command with the 'shell' attribute. For example, in my sway config file I prefix their title bar by X11 or the wayland application id.
for_window [shell="xwayland" ] title_format '[X11] %title'
for_window [shell="xdg"] title_format '[%app_id] %title'
And for the few wayland applications with a long application id such as 'org.pwmt.zathura"' I have specialized rules such as
for_window [shell="xdg" app_id="org.pwmt.zathura"] title_format '[zathura]
I'm running Sway without XWayland and haven't run into any issues yet. That said, I don't run proprietary software on bare metal.
3:14
As an example...
3:54
As an example...
I thought I had a déjà vu for a moment... 🤣
OOPS 😅
Wayland is great!
(If you aren't using a fractional scaled display with KDE because KWayland is the buggiest trash heap in the history of KDE.)
(Or an older NVIDIA card.)
(Or a newer NVIDIA card.)
(Or you want to run HiDPI applications in XWayland (they get scaled up with blur).)
It has potential, but I always turn it off on every computer I use for these reasons.
This is kinda how like XQuartz works. Which is X11 on Quartz Extreme (macOS)
Mesa ZINC is freaking amazing. OpenGL drivers are broken beyond repair in some cards. While their Vulkan counter work nicely.
I had a weird dejavu in the middle of the video
Cool now all I need is a reason to use Wayland
lol right?
I think they changed something in the matrix!
What changed in the matrix?
Yeah I think too.
@@xrafter If only I knew! :)
It is a reference to the movie The Matrix.
Brodie made a mistake when editing this video. A part of it is repeating (after 3:30).
Watching this video made me feel like in the movie in the scene with the cat.
this sounds like it could possibly be used to get around the refresh rate issues on x11, ie not being able to use multiple monitors with differing refresh rates because they all get locked to the lowest common denominator. this could be useful for someone who wants that benefit of wayland but still wants to use a x11-only de/wm. i dont have nvidia but i wonder if this is also usable in nvidia wayland to create a working environment as afaik nvidia wayland is functional but very far from perfect
that's what I hate the most about x11, it is too annoying. Hopefully nvidia supports wayland better. And hopefully the development of wayland gets way faster :/
Btw that's not an issue that xorg has anymore I've been using mixed refresh rate for months
@@BrodieRobertson wow youre actually right, i was under the assumption that it was just a limitation in the design of x11 but i guess thats false. although when i booted an x11 session to test this out i had to change some environment variables and turn off compositing for it to work (im on kde)
@@dylon4906 Most Wayland compositors do handle it considerably better
Your doing a banging job! Keep going! You do a repeat on a clip with the xwayland command, and made me think I had a deja vu. I just wish that we get people to adopt and use wayland instead of having Xwayland be something that is needed. (that said, I need xwayland currently to be able to work with intellij, and some other programs, and I have a feeling that is the only reason I can screenshare certain applications while using wayland).
3:17 - 4:34 don't know if this section is looped for everyone else too
it was looped
It’s always interesting to look at Linux desktop progress (from a distance)
XWayland is very nice. I use a patch for hidpi on archlinux that allows be to get unblurred xwayland. Unfortunately the patch is currently out of date and doesn't compile ATM.
It does seem like it's either slower or has screen tearing issues with games though when using PRIME offloading.
I imagine this is very useful for writing window managers if their is no way to do this in X
There is a program called Xnest, which lets you do the same thing in X
Subtle influence with the whiteboard :D
I remember how amazed i was when i first ran sway from within sway and it just opened up a window with sway in it
I've tinkered around with this before (labwc + fvwm3). It actually worked pretty well - no noticeable performance loss. The only serious downside was that mouse warping doesn't (didn't?) work under Xwayland.
wow I didn't know about rootfull windows that's a really cool option I definitely agree that it'll be more favorable in the future once Wayland gets more popular as a "default" for desktops
I can't wait til they're done. Global shortcuts definitely need to be added.
Running X11 through XWayland through Wayland on WSL is indeed incredibly cursed... Time to traumatize all the windows fanboys/girls/toasters
New linux user here. I was like : "are we even talking the same language!?". Didn't understand anything lol
Very cool info!
Every XWayland app is a chad until fractional scaling comes in and destroys the resolution of the xwayland app and gives us a nice and blurry xwayland app 😂. Been facing blurry apps in case of xwayland apps while using fractional scaling in wayland since a long time now. My laptop's screen scales at 125%.
Check 3:55, seems that a part of the video repeated
Love that ending lol
The same X11 as 1990s, just looked at it and ran xeyes.
This could be useful for multiseat with single gpu
If you use steam you have to install drivers anyways, it's still just waiting till it's fully supported.
Of course it's fine to experiment with stuff like that, especially because OpenSource projects need the Bug reports.
Changing to wayland for me would just mean that I would have to check for Proton issues which will probably not that common.
Incase of Steam Link i would suggest waiting aswell, since it's not fully supported on Wayland just yet.
I go back to Xorg. I really need the kcm-wacomtablet of KDE Plasma. Wayland doesn't have it. Its cool for other apps but can't recommend it as of now for creative works.
Ctrl+shift is bad, but so is crtl+alt which virt-manager uses
imo super+esc on gnome boxes is pretty convenient
3:33
4:23 these repeat or the matrix has broken
By the way, you can do nested display on X with Xephyr, including with multiple monitors, which can be achieved with Xephyr +xinerama
I'll have to give wayland another try, I tried sway (coming from i3) a while back but remember having issues.
True but the benefit of the Wayland solution is the elimination of a set of drivers
can't wait to add an entirely new layer of bloat, for no reason, to my X11 desktop
But you're also losing a set of drivers so is it more or less bloat
Wayland gnome on nvidia doesn't even support glx (x11 opengl) hardware acceleration, so for now this is not a good option
I want to see the Wsl thing tried for the fun of it lol
too bad Wayland still doesn't work good enough to be usable with NVIDIA and KDE... I appreciate that Wayland is the future, but its just not the 'today' for most users.
nvidia's fault.
@@max_im_um doubtfully as NVIDIA on Gnome works perfectly fine... but it doesn't matter whose fault it is, its just not really ready enough with enough DEs
@@AyaWetts You mean it is not ready enough for people who use Nvidia ? Also most of the Linux distros do not work on M1 Macs. Does it mean Linux is not ready enough ? For Mac users...
@@viacheslav1392 It needs to be able to hit almost all users to be ready... this is not simply an nvidia thing, but also a desktop thing. Sure some GPUs on KDE are good... Gnome is pretty much ready to go for most modern GPUs... that leaves a ways to go still.
nivdia and kde are both garbage. I'd go back to Windows.
So rootful Xwayland is basically like Xephyr on xorg?
I was on the fence about watching this older video but it could have been useful this weekend when I was trying to get the D4 beta working. Instead of shutting down sway and launching lxde.
Also when you say rootful does that allow you to run gui apps as root? I have discovered the correct solution for this as VMware network-cfg will not launch. Until I updated the arch wiki the only work around I found was launching an xsession from the TTY.
This is very similar to Xnest, the X11 server window in X11.
Any way to use mouse warping inside that? Some games have serious issues within xwayland and mouse cursor support. Afaik it got something to do with wayland not supporting mouse/cursor warping - and if i understand it correctly that's the mode where the cursor sticks to the center of the screen so you can move/pan a view infinitely with your mouse/trackball.
I just tried running lutris and from that Star Citizen in a full x11 session following your example, and the big issue with rubberbanding cursor is gone - but "on click" the cursor/mouse still jumps to the bottom right corner of the screen, making (in-game) termials and the environmental cursor unusable. There's a solution that uses gamescope, but that one has a whole set of issues on its own (also not working on my machine.. like at all..).
Any pointers would be appreciated. Except stuff like 0x7fffa0757dd4, obviously 😆
Can't wait to see EWWM - Emacs Wayland Window Manager
First you need Emacs on Wayland... And probably it would be a long time to wait
Expected you to show us running awesomewm inside of sway.
The problem is getting the window manager started, starting Xorg without Xinit and getting everything setup is a nightmare
I will use Wayland and I will like it
Say basically you should run xorg in a window in wayland because of a screen locker?😂
I really hope that bspwm will support wayland but at the moment it seems like wayland breaks more stuff than it solves. But time will make wayland better and better
I honestly don’t think it will, iv found the core ideas of wayland to be antithetical to the desktop Linux experience.
X11 has some wonderful properties, like the ability to use it over a network. Or how it is leaky, it’s a good thing that X11 programs can manipulate each other.
In my case I use scripts to control my desktop environment and to manipulate x11 programs. It works with most DEs
In wayland if you want to do something like this you can’t unless you modify or make your own desktop environment.
This basically locks down a lot of tweaking.
I don’t think the Linux desktop needs sandboxing, we have an ecosystem of foss software, unlike android or iOS it’s not the norm to run borderline spyware apps all the time that the system needs to sandbox you from.
@@jondoe6608 you are absolutely right!
Ty for vid
So basically whether Wayland or Xorg, they control window interface of applications?
Ah yes 3:15 and 3:50, the part where we get the same example twice and I start panicking wondering if I've time traveled
This doesn't solve the issues with XWayland I have had personally, because those were issues where an X11 app wanted/needed information that other X11 apps happily leak like their app names and window titles. Unless you force all apps to run in XWayland... Hopefully we get new APIs to cover for that soon, or the "raise-or-run" app launch behavior is impossible to implement (for example).
I don’t think that info should be called a leak, honestly I don’t like this mentality, it’s destroying the desktop.
I want my clipboard to work correctly, screen shots should work well. And In general it’s fine it the programs can see each other.
We should have a better eco system of non user hostile programs and in foss for the most part we do.
I do not want sandboxed apps that are slow to start, have broken theming and are bloated in size.
It’s not like iOS and android where most apps are proprietary garbage that has to be sandboxes away to not completely screw over the user.
To me it makes sense to have an root-full window per monitor.
And have drag and drop, the root-less windows from one to the other.
As far as I can understand the advantage of these root-less once is that they get rendered faster and are lighter.
I like how he talks about Sway so much as though all Wayland users use tiling window managers Lol 🙃
I use Kwin
there is a glitch in the matrix
This gives me hope that I will be able to use AwesomeWM when the Xorg dies.
The audio starts with a small glitch. The audio first starts with from left and then right afterwards the right track also kicks in. It's a little disorienting
What does this mean for the future of XMonad?
Hey Brodie. You once said (on your video on various kernels) you were gonna make a video on linux zen kernel based on your experience. Any update on that?
I did say that didn't I, it's completely slipped my mind since then. I need to get around to it
how to do this gimp like photoshop user interface layout? its so cool @Brodie Robertson.. Whan will we completely switch to native wayland with all gtk and kwin .?
I used a modified version of the photogimp interface
@@BrodieRobertson Thank you for knowladge 🙂
The video at 03:13 and 03:54 are duplicated.
I use NVIDIA so cant even use Wayland yet
Depends on the compositor you should be able to use it but I know some are quite flaky ard not a good experience
I tried the wayland session on manjaro but it has a problem with my wacom cintiq 16. the pen keys can't be configured. i'll stick with x11 for now.
Manjaro is a sick joke.
Do I need this in my life? Do I really care? What the hell is it in any case? I use Linux because it is built on Unix, old, stable, tested, secure, no surprises, nothing that breaks - what will Wayland do for me that will make anything better without making it slower?
Nothing breaks lol
He needs to disable gestures. But not on his eyefone.
you can start sway in sway, I heard you like sway so I put sway in your sway.
You can start Sway in Xorg, then open Xorg in Xwayland and play a videogame through Proton. Should you do this? God no but it runs
Yeah xwayland is great unless you have a 2K monitor, so you have to set it at 1.25 and half your apps are super blurry
Probably still does not help with my Nvidia GPU and its 390 legacy driver. Still cool solution to the user software issues with Wayland.
Eh, I'm sticking to Xorg until Wayland becomes the new standard and everything is compatible with it. I guess we've got a catch-22 situation here.
If you make that choice and nobody else does then you can grab on later
@@BrodieRobertson True, but it depends on how many people are in my boat; Whether I'm in the majority or minority. Either way, Xorg doesn't give me any problems, so I'm not itching for a new display server.
Is it possible to run Wayland on top of X11?
Yes no need to do anything special
@@BrodieRobertson How? What should I run on top of Xorg to have Wayland compositor available to Wayland clients?
@@johngreen1060 you just run it
One big problem: gaming. Wayland compositors need to be able to let XWayland windows draw to the front buffer for the least latency possible.
My experience has been generally fine in that regard, maybe it's been different for you. My bigger problem is games that were already a little flaky in Proton on Xorg straight up not working on Wayland
@@BrodieRobertson Do you not mind having vsync pretty much forced on you in games?
@@LloydLynx it's generally fine but it certainly could be better
@@BrodieRobertson As a Intel HD Graphics user, having v-sync forced on games is really annoying
Dr. Frankenstein, please help me migrate to Wayland.
I have gone full Wayland for the most part and don't care to use X, but your information is still very interesting.
can we game on wayland
my next gpu won't be nvidia - way, s.
looks like a latency nightmare
I guess I better go and find out
does zoom screen share work inside xwsyland?
I believe it should work inside of the rootful context but only to capture other windows in that container
They should have just slowly, simply, and quietly, replaced X's internal machinery with Wayland, and then created a single, unified merger of Xlib with all the various extensions (XCB...) into *one* cohesive API and library for people to target, and call it X12.
The problem with that is none of the Xorg wanted to deal with the Xorg code base so they moved over to Wayland
@@BrodieRobertson That's not a problem with what I am saying, but a problem with the Xorg developers.
Related: why is Posix stagnant? Why has it not ever been updated to include *anything* related to graphics or sound? Why is there not a PThread type standardized graphics or sound API people can target regardless of internal mechanics? Why does and can Gnome dictate the *one* theme with 50 pixel padding to *everything* in all programs? Why are programs now "apps"? I could go on for days....
POSIX is standard created in the time of Unix where you had a ton of different implementations that had nothing to do with each other, nowadays we're left over with Linux and a hand full of BSDs but the vast majority of people are on Linux. It doesn't include anything related to graphics or sound because it's a minimal set of standards for compatible systems.
Gnome can dictate what happens in GTK because it's the biggest contributor and the biggest DE that uses it, they don't control anything that happens in QT or any other framework.
App is a synoym for program, I'm not sure what the problem is.
I could run windows, then wsl, then wayland, then xwayland, then put a vm of windows in it. Oh I forgot to mention the first windows is actually a vm, which is a snap package, running under linux, which runs under xwayland ... %$@*&@# ... which is a docker container running ... &&*@# ... and all of that in your browser :)
Do you see what I am getting at?
I hate all of this. Like what is wrong with people and containers? Just let me run my stuff directly on hardware please. Like what happened to technology? What happened to performance and simplicity?
NO LAYERS PLEASE.
oh... so this how i can run xmonad inside wayland... :) ... though i would rather run wayland inside xorg (xmonad) ... o.O ... or that xmonad ran no wayland... 9:46 ... yap ::: the key combo should be configurable, an option argument... :)
Bro this method is good if you want to do cheating in your test this allows you to changes force from one app to another
Focus
ngl I have no idea what any of this means but I watched some of it anyways.
Wayland + KDE + Nvidia. Pls.
Zzz
having nvidia and not being able to explore wayland is painfull, thats why, for now, dont forget xorg, its all i have lmao
Nvidia has made a public list of the problems so hopefully in time it continues to get better
@@BrodieRobertson i hope
If you're into bad choices like nvidia; you may as well use Windows.
@@madthumbs1564 it was not a bad choice, i used to run windows, and the card is pretty capable, but i regret buying a nvidia card, but i mean amd cards at time were shit and suck up way more
@@madthumbs1564 so you want me going back to windows? right, now i see why the linux community still as small as 2-5% market share
somebody never ran weston in dwm xd
Wayland is made to be embedded in other graphical stacks, it's not as simple the other way round
@@BrodieRobertson that's fair enough yeah, that more meant as a joke btw :P
@@fuseteam i thought you just misunderstood what was being done
@@BrodieRobertson ah nah not really, thanks for the clarification tho
Anyone who has nvidia gpu
Crying in Nvidia card
Running both sounds like a good waste of resources.
lmfao