The Advantages and Disadvantages of the TCG Genre - Featuring Legacy's Allure
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- Опубликовано: 13 авг 2022
- Legacy's Allure is a card game with a lot of interesting things going for it - but it's not a tcg. So what are some of the advantages and disadvantages that come along with publishing a game as a tcg?
legacysallure.com/
This video took way too long to finish - I made the classic rookie mistake of taking a huge topic and trying to create a single video out of it. I nearly did that with the Essential Elements series, and it worked out much better as a series of shorter videos. I really should have done the same here. But, the video is here, it's finally done, and hopefully this gets some interesting conversations going. I also completely missed my 1000 sub milestone while I was working on this video - there are a few things I've wanted to try once I passed that milestone. I have a very small game that I'm planning to try to release on kickstarter, so that should be coming down the pipeline at some point, and also I want to give live-streaming a try - some kind of game-designing live stream. This video proved to be a pretty big time sink, and I've been spending less time at the computer overall with the nice weather lately, so those are still a ways off. For now, the next video will be another how-to-play, for a game that I've always been curious about and have finally got a chance to play. Thanks everyone for sticking with me - 1000 is small potatoes for the bigger youtubers out there, but it's still and incredible amount of people, and I'm deeply grateful to everyone who's found my videos and musings interesting enough to click that subscribe button. Thank you!
Cute Watame art: www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/790...
Wixoss game store: / 546995800736137218
![NOSFERATU - Official Teaser Trailer [HD] - Only In Theaters December 25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/b59rxDB_JRg/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for the praise. Great insight as always. Will post this video in our discord!
Thank you! I'm not sure I did the best job highlighting the game, without any gameplay footage - maybe in a future video! I think the game has a really strong sense of what it wants to be, and what it doesn't want to be, and more than anything that gives me a ton of confidence in the design and direction of the game - I hope if nothing else I was able to highlight that in this video. I'm looking forward to being able to play it physically!
thanks to this video i'm hooked :-D finally a NON TCG which has awesome artworks and an interesting gameplay
@@Zanji1234 I personally am trying to design a CG and was curious what it is you look for in card games and why you prefer them over TCGs? The core "orignal," if you will, aspect of my game is that resources used to play cards increase in their complexity over the course of the game. For example, if A and B were your early game resources, you could spend them individually or combine them to make C. But the most basic resources from which all other resources are made have finite space to exist on the playing field, so you have to decide what basic resources to prioritize in your deck.
That explanation didn't do a justice for what I have in mind for this game, but hopefully you at least got an idea :)
@@sharkybrickfilms5716 I played tcgs since I was 17 until a few years ago. My issue is the rare cards hunting and buying packs were most of the cards are utter trash and will not used at all.
Expandable card games with fixed packs have the benefit that I know what's inside and know if I would buy it or not. Sadly FFG did release the packs so fast that you had to constantly play to see any difference in decks
I believe there is a disadvantage to tcg's that you may have missed.
The distrubutor needs more storage space due to the high number of cards (commons mostly) that need to be printed in order to create rarity.
Yeah - it's not a huge difference, but adding up all that extra product over the numbers tcgs will end up distributing, it does add up - and it makes the genre even more difficult for smaller game publishers/design studios to break into.
Hmm, this is a problem too, so the question is, how do we fix the rarity system or how do we introduce a new system that does not clog you closet with the same card you always get/the same commons that got shipped to your store? Unless those commons are powerful enough that they'll sale out in a week.
@@kagemushashien8394Make products that contain highly desired cards. Yu-Gi-Oh reprints some cards this way and MtG sorta provided this with Commander reprints and their Legacy and Modern packs. It stinks that they charge more money for these alternatives though.
The "collectible" nature of TCGs is that "risk" factor, that part of the "lizard brain" that likes the gamble and the hunt -- that dopamine hit you get when you crack a pack of unknown contents and you look to see if you "won or lost". It's the same reason why regular "trading cards" were (and still are) popular and why "blind bag" collectibles continue to be popular. This is kind of "sense of ownership", but not quite. There's a game element to the randomness of collection that a person can enjoy even if they never play the game. As a collector of "things", I'm happy to fill out my collection of Netrunner LCG packs, but I don't have any need to open them (yet), because I know what's inside. But a box of boosters for some random CCG? Oooo. that's a horrible temptation, because I really want to know "what's in there."
Funny enough for a tcg player, opening packs mostly just gives me a sense of dread - since I know generally the value return for opening packs is just worse than spending that same money on singles and actually getting what I want, and watching that disappointment unfold in real time is kind of miserable. I do get the dopamine hit thing, though, and it can feel kind of exploitative in the tcg model (or any lootbox model). I think the trading aspect helps alleviate this a bit - you can get that dopamine hit of getting a card you really wanted without having to go through a financial transaction with the gaming company. It's still not all sunshine and rainbows, but I think in net the good outweighs the bad.
@@tcgacademia I think that's the result of the more recent focus on "collectibles as investments" across social media. I started with MtG back in beta, and there were no real price guides readily available, no social media to watch pack openings that were entirely focused on "lottery tickets". I'd buy packs because that's how I got cards, either adding to my collection, or creating "trade bait". Even into the 2000s, I would crack boxes of SWCCG with a friend of mine on the weekends looking for cards for the collection -- no mind to what they were worth (of course flipping out if we pulled that major character rare). Nowadays, it's hard to open a pack of MtG with that early-days sense of wonder, because by the time I get cards, somebody online has already told me what the "money cards" are. Half the time, I don't even know WHY they're so valued. :P
@@dotdotdotPaul That's definitely part of it. The internet's effect on deckbuilding is part of too, I think. It's hard to get excited about opening one specific card when you know you need a playset to be competitive.
Hmm, this is a problem no? Gambling your money only for to get a piece of cardboard you don't want, how about I introduce a system.
Let's say you want a card(s) of some sort, but you don't want to buy the cheap lottery the designer gives you, but you are informed that the TCG has an online store that sells Card(s) individual or with others that are specific, you look and you see the card(s) you want, but a bit more expensive than the lottery, but not too expensive to be a joke, but the commons and rares are guaranteed in the lottery side so if you needed those you just get a few packs and boom you might get none or doubles of that common or rare, so theirs 2 sides the designer can get money instead of relying on someone getting excited to buy a whole box of the packets only to be disappointed with what they got and quit the game.
How's that strategy? It does not always have to be an online store, but the designer can encourage other stores to use the same system, do you want the lottery to get many cards and a chance of what you want, or do you want to buy it/them separately for what it's/their worth. And how about a system of trading with the store with alot of cards you don't want to the ones you want, that way a supply chain gets to flow between the consumer and who ever is selling them, people might buy the card for the artwork, rarity, the power it has in the game, or because it has a place in you, like, you like trains, well how about this archetype that is about trains, and soon Mabey some of the cards you get will be worth a lot in the future, so you get more money back in the future if you save those mint condition cards that you don't want but are scarce in the near future and collectors want it or it's a good card.
Why do 'you' put 'so many' quotation 'marks'?
The "sense of ownership" provided by TCGs relative to other card games is a point I don't see mentioned much, and is also the most important factor for me personally. I've tried tonnes of card games, some of which have certainly been as enjoyable as a TCG I play, but none of which can maintain a high enough level of investment from me to get into the nitty gritty details or pioneer my own deckbuilding etc. Making a deck for a TCG vs having a full collection at your disposal at all times that you got all at once in a relatively closed system feels almost like building a PC or baking a pie or making art or clothing or games vs just buying one that someone else already made for you. You didn't need to spent the time and effort learning and making the thing, and feel less attached to it or proud of it. At least for me anyways. For a TCG I use my time and creativity to figure out what I want to make, and painstakingly acquire it piecemeal as I'm able to do so, and then finally have this thing I've put so much into that I can play and share with friends that feels like I earned it somehow and that I can somehow strongly identify with, even though all I did was a lot of research and then slowly buy a bunch of cardboard.
I find this tremendously frustrating, because the monetization model of TCGs tends to be somewhat anti-consumer, where the monetization models for other card games are often dramatically more approachable by comparison. And like I said at the start, a lot of these other games are fantastic. I WANT to like these kinds of card games as much as or more than TCGs, and I just don't because I don't get as attached to the game or the decks I'm building, and that attachment seems to be the most important part for me.
Great video, thanks for sharing :)
Yeah, I definitely get that frustration. Even games like Wixoss that are comparatively less expensive are still costly to keep up with - and there's a lot of much less demanding games out there that are also legitimately fantastic. But there's still something uniquely appealing about tcgs, and I think the partial access to cards is a big factor in that. While objectively having full access at a lower price would be better, subjectivity is important to enjoyment as well.
That's a good point you make. I wonder if you've tried CCG, that allow deckbuilding within the system? I think Arkham Horror for example allows me to really try to be creative, while I have access to basically all the same cards as everyone else? Arkham Horror is of course a co-op game, but a competitive game with similar possibilities would be Ivion for example. This might still be too limiting for what you might like, but maybe worth a try if you haven't already?
@@michaelcavalry8379 The only ECG I've dabbled in is Netrunner, which I never got too deeply into since I had no local play group. Ideally, ECGs are the best of both worlds - a deep and complex card pool, but with a lower total cost of entry.
@@tcgacademia Yeah I think so as well. I'm of course a bit biased, as I prefer LCG's myself. Eventually it comes down to preference however.
@@michaelcavalry8379 For my part I'm bizarrely just not nearly as interested in a deckbuilding game as I am a deck construction game, where deckbuilding starts with a baseline that you change over the course of play and deck construction is completely customizable and established before gameplay. I find deck construction better encapsulates the feeling of identifying with or feeling a personal connection for the deck you end up playing with, which is super appealing. Great suggestion though.
ECGs should in theory be the perfect solution for me, but my lizard brain just doesn't get as invested in the deck construction and I find them less fulfilling as a result. Also generally struggle to get any scale of play group going which makes diverse or frequent games more challenging. I'm glad they work so well for you though! :)
To offer another perspective on 'ownership' though. One reason I'm reluctant to get back into TCGs is that with TCGs I often feel like I just own my deck, or I just own my cards instead of actually owning the GAME since I don't really own the deckbuilding aspect of it if I can't frictionlessly build and tweak any deck I want at a whim. Whereas I can easily say that I own Netrunner, AHLCG, LOTRLCG, Ashes Reborn, etc.
I definitely get that, and I think objectively, fixed distribution like Netrunner etc. is just better. Subjectively tcgs can have a different kind of appeal, and a stronger sense of ownership to one individual deck, rather than to the game as a whole.
I would be interested in seeing your other break downs of TCG like resource costs and such but in relation to a game like Legacy Allure.
Another problem with TCG is how the single pricing/secondary market affect sales competitive players almost never buy seal products unlike casuals so the casual who buys seal products can’t compete with those to only buy from secondary market despite paying more and keeping the game afloat
Some tcgs are worse with this than others, but all have this problem at some level - playsets of rares just doesn't happen without opening a ton of product. Meaning singles is the only viable way of building a high-tier competitive deck. The internet has helped with this a lot, but it's still a very real barrier.
Great video, king. Keep the content up. Personally and professionally I am a huge fan of Legacy's Allure and have even had the pleasure of working with Keith and the rest of the team on the game.
Thank you for stopping by - I really appreciate you showing me around the game! Several of my favourite games are tcgs, but many of my favourite games are inspired by tcgs, but not tcgs themselves (deckbuilders, drafting games, etc). So this was a video I'd been thinking of for a while, but the clarity of purpose in Legacy's Allure in being deliberately a non-tcg really set this video in motion. Looking forward to being able to play the game physically!
always looking forward to uploads from you
Thank you!
Indie designer here. Another unspoken disadvantage of the TCG model is how it affects the game's basic design itself, where designers are incentivized to make players use large decks of cards which feeds into making players acquire more cards. It's why TCGs never have deck sizes smaller than 40, while LCGs and LCG-adjacent games like Ashes Reborn or Exceed Fighting System get to have 30-card decks or even 7-card decks like in Sakura Arms or Blade Rondo. I made a board game with TCG-esque gameplay called Enmity Engine, where players use a Poker deck and only 3 "actual" game cards (out of the 50+ included in the game). I think if I pitched a 3-card TCG to a bunch of investors, I'd be laughed out of the room.
Hey - you stream a bunch of Wixoss weeklies! I thought I recognized the Machina avatar! Yeah, that's absolutely right. I've seen at least one tcg try for a smaller deck size, but it died pretty quickly. Tcgs are definitely a more restrictive game model than a lot of people might realize - even most card game ideas are likely better served by stand alone releases, or an ECG model or similar. I'll have to take a look at what you're working on!
@@tcgacademia Yeah, I actually found your channel because one of my Wixoss friends linked to it a few months ago.
Only "TCG" I can think of with a small deck size is Anachronism, but it was basically released under an LCG model, before there was really a term for it.
I can send you a copy of my game if you want to take a look at it. I have a video of it being played on my channel too.
The heavy upfront cost of these bigger TCGs leave an opening for smaller and more affordable TCGs. However the initial cost of the cards in big TCGs is offset by being able to resell those cards to other players when you no longer need them.
Smaller tcgs have tended to struggle in the past, and I think the point about being able to resell the cards in a larger tcg is part of the reason why - it's a lot easier to justify spending a ton of money on a game if you can get some of that money back if you get bored of it. That being said, there's a lot of smaller tcgs working along out there right now, so I think the landscape has changed a bit.
@@tcgacademia It seems more important for the smaller TCGs to have a "Humane product design" so no fetch land like cards in exclusive products.
@@sawderf741 I mean, I agree, but games like Flesh and Blood and Metazoo make a big deal out of how RARE and EXPENSIVE many of their top-rarity cards are. I definitely prefer more affordability for players, and in the long run I think that's much healthier for the game, but 'inhumane product design' can definitely work to give a game a shot in the arm and build hype. (I still don't think it's a good strategy, and agree with you that one of the big advantage of smaller games can often be the lower cost to play.)
@@tcgacademia I like how Yugioh tends to handle it for the most part. Yeah, they have their fair share of expensive cards but they do reprints often. I also like how the card's rarity helps it hold value and has no impact on the game itself. One of Yugioh's strongest suits is having different card rarities. It's weakest suit is how aggressive it is with power creep.
I think the better solution is to have alternate art/higher rarity version of cards but still have the common version of them so it makes both the collector and the player happy.
@@sawderf741 Yugioh's not bad. They do tend to reprint staples, and there's to be plenty of playable low-rarity cards out there - even if you will need higher-rarity cards to finish the deck. But "alternate art/higher rarity version of cards but still have the common version of them" is what Wixoss does, and it's pretty great. Decks are generally affordable by tcg standards, and the most expensive cards in the game are usually super-rare versions of commons. It's definitely my preferred approach.
another great video. i'm personally still torn on how I want to distribute my card game. it feels like the only way to be successful with the TCG model is to have an already existing IP big enough to bootstrap a player base, and even then many still fall victim to the 2 year curse. But without the TCG model, the game feels like its competing against every board game ever made, and the lack of a secondary market makes it hard to sustain an interested customer base. How bad of an idea is it to release a bunch of cheaper non-foil starter decks with guaranteed cards, but then also sell booster packs with randomized foil cards for people who like to gamble/collect?
I've actually thought about the pre-set starters / randomized foils model myself - it's an idea I actually really like. I don't know of any games that do it, but it feels close to a tcg releasing a random set of alt-art promos each month (like Wixoss). So it's definitely not unreasonable. The only issue, as you said in the first bit, is getting a game idea with enough traction to really try this model out - any game on the scale of a tcg is really difficult to get going.
Don't starter decks already come with guaranteed cards and I thought booster packs were already randomized? Maybe I misunderstood, can you explain, I'm so confused 😅
@@LifesAmazingJourney the idea is to guarantee cards because it's more economical, the issue here is the amount of money being spent on essentially gambling us unethical but people are addicts and won't play more ethical amd fair card games, so you still need to sell a variant of booster packs to make actual money.
So you sell foil packs.
I have never played a game like Legacy's Allure, so someone tell me: How does the monetization actually compare to TCGs? So long as you're not trying to be super competitive, TCGs don't have to be very expensive. Obviously getting every single card or just getting the best cards can be extremely pricey, but you don't have to do that. I feel like getting singles would be much less prevalent in ECGs and I have no idea what it would take to play such a game competitively (if that's even a thing).
It's kind of interesting - you can go in for $80+ and treat as a board game - a complete 'game in a box.' Or if you and some friends are interested, you can each jump in for 1 or 2 faction packs each, which are priced closed to starter decks in tcgs. I'm treating it more as a game in a box that occasionally releases expansions, a bit like Dominion, but you can treat it as more of a tcg type of game and only buy the cards you personally want to use and it's still pretty reasonable. It'll be interesting to see how it expands in the future, though - depending on how things develop, it could get a bit expensive, but looking at the design of the game, it doesn't look like anyone would ever need to spend too much to get a game out of it.
Scarcity of resources in TCG's creates secondary market value. It's the most important aspect and it's similar to other collectibles like gemstones, art or artifacts. If people can make money out of something, the product and company will grow. 📈🚀
Most people buy things that give them value in a long time frame: houses, cars, insurance or do workouts, eat healthy, learn. The underlying reason is fear of death and the need to live to "fullest".
Monetary value in tcg acts as incentive for spending time.
I'm not sure how much it affects gameplay, but the financial side definitely does built commitment to the game.
But don’t forget you do need to deny the second hand market exists so as not to fall foul of gambling laws
As a person who creates a card game out of passion. I think the TCG distribution model is wrong way to go. It will be difficult for me to encourage someone to invest money in boosters for a new card game that is made by some "random person". So it needs to be more of an ECG and not a TCG.
The other problem is that most games want to be like MTG. I mean 5 civilizations, races, factions, etc.
As for limit design, how about "feature creep"? E.g. add a sixth faction that is played a little different?
BTW great video :)
Thanks! And yeah, I do like tcgs a lot, and I'm glad there's a decent number of them out there, but it's definitely hard to really follow more than one or two at once - it's a lot easier to play a bunch of smaller, less demanding games. Feature creep is an interesting one. All games feature creep to some extent with new mechanics, but major feature creep is really hard to do well, especially without it just feeling like a remix of something that already exists in other factions.
Another advantage of tgs is actually in learning to play if you were given all the cards and had to read all of them to make a deck instead you work with the smaller pool of cards as "new" cards come into your view. Kinda works to not overload players with info or front end work just so they can play the game. hearthstone and mtg arena do this by offering you decks when you start playing. Great video btw that's a sub from me
I think there are definitely ways for other games to do this as well - but given the huge numbers of game pieces in tcgs, it's still neat how the game breaks it down into much more digestible pieces. Purely as a personal anecdote - it's been ages since I've followed an mtg spoiler season or even looked at a card gallery, but I still know most modern cards being released, just from the 3 or 4 drafts I'll do of each set. Thanks for the sub!
6 releases a year leads to burnout
Great TCG channel!
Can you analize the "Culdcept Saga" game mechanics please? It was described as a mix between MtG and Monopoly. Thanks!
For the moment I'll likely stick to physical games, since I've already got a pretty hefty backlog of games to make videos about - but Culdcept Saga does look really interesting, and I'd love to give it a shot at some point in the future. Thanks for the recommendation!
@@tcgacademia: It is the Best TCG Game on Earth! 💎
You won't regret playing it. And once you start playing it, you won't stop soon.
Just look for a review on RUclips first.
Maybe they will release a physical board game in the future! Who knows.
You're welcome! Have a nice Day! 😀
It might be on the list shrewdly but maybe a good topic would be TCG simulators probably official ones like master duel, arena and live
I'm sure something like this exists, but I'm curious about how a cube-like experience would work, wherein each set is released in a fixed amount that players draft and build decks from. You could still have semi-frequent releases and the constant innovation that comes with that, with each different "cube" being a different flavorful and mechanical theme, but it doesn't have the same predatory financial pressure to keep up. The self contained nature of each set acts as a natural rotation but once several sets are out players could make their own cubes too. It does have the problem of being a higher buy-in for new players since it can't have preconstructed decks, and does require a lot of mechanical depth in the environment of each set
That sounds pretty close to the LCG model (living card game). Theoretically it should work, but I think pretty much every card game released under that model has struggled. It can definitely be better for the end player, but it skirts a weird line between tcgs and 'board games' like Dominion, and so far they seem to capture the disadvantages of both models without fully capturing the advantages of either.
Crucify me, but I play TCGs like Magic or Flesh and Blood since years as they were LCGs.
Means: I buy preconstructed decks and no boosters. Why? Because I hate the feeling of incompleteness. In TCGs I have always this urge to have every single card from the set (what is very unrealistic), but in LCGs like Arkham Horror I can realistically own every single card (if I want).
PS: Another disadvantages of TCGs are the pay-to-win mechanics (rare cards are usually stronger and more expansive) and the "lootbox-mechanics", which are very problematic for people with gambling addiction or children in general.
I do the exact same thing with Flesh and Blood, and I (mostly) do the same with most of the JP-only games I've played. If the game is able to competently design starter decks, you can treat them as a stand-alone game and still have a great time with them. Also, fair point on the gambling problem.
@@tcgacademia I've actually been tempted to buy the Blitz precons for FaB and just use them for kitchen table play without ever expanding on them. How balanced would you say the precons are? Both within a set and between sets? If I were to play a precon from a newer set (Uprising?) against one from an older set (Monarch?) would you say they're close yo being evenly matched?
@@XTCyan In my experience the balance is pretty good. There's a few that come across as a little underpowered (Briar), and a few lopsided matchups (Levia vs Prism), but even in those cases the gameplay is still really good, and you never really feel completely shut out of the game. I haven't tried any of the uprising decks yet, but from what I've seen comparing Monarch and Tales of Aria, they're reasonably balanced between sets as well.
Don’t forget the strain on card shops
If you don’t print gold sets will rot for months and with yugioh especially it has lead to card shops dropping events
This is why I'm leaning more into board games, I don't have an advantage over my opponents simply because I spend more money into the game, bu rather, because I focus on my strategy.
I really like tcgs, but I also play a lot of board games. Like you said, it's nice having a game where you don't have to worry about your wallet giving you a defuff, and you can get into way more different games with board games relative to the time and money investment to get into a tcg.
I know this video is a year old at this point, but something I don't see mentioned as a Benefit in favor TCG's is that because they get to come in booster packs you get limited formats. Like in magic, draft and sealed are huge reasons why people play, with many having limited be the only reason they play the game. I am personally designing a game and the idea of crafting a fun limited format for players is something I have been really enjoying and a good reason for cards to be set at different rarities for pack randomness. I feel with ECG's you just don't get those players.
Definitely a fair point! I think the reason I didn't include it is that there's plenty of stand-alone games that are built around repeatable drafts - such as Dominion, 7 Wonders, even Sushi Go. The big difference is that in those games, you don't get to take the cards you drafted home with you, which comes back to the points in the video. Draft is really fun, though - definitely one of my favourite formats to play.
I think we need a better way to classify card games, I don't know why ccg must be separate from many "closed set" card games, as often they share the same design principles behind, and games like keyforge already stretch the notion of what is a ccg anyway
I think tcgs/ccgs are enough of a unique game type that it's worth talking about on their own - they have bunch of design considerations other games don't necessarily have to think about (like dividing cards by rarity).
@@tcgacademia yeah, my comment was kinda dumb, less than a week researching tcg's was enough to realize it
@@3_14pie I think your comment was actually pretty fair - especially with how many games there are out there that are 'almost' tcgs - like Keyforge (unique deck game), Netrunner (expanding card game - non-random), or even games like Dominion (card game with multiple expansions). I actually found making this video it was kind of tricky breaking down what was actually unique about trading card games - although, at the end, I think I found a few key differences to other game types.
@@tcgacademia I agree, theres games that play like tcgs and games with models similar to tcgs, but certain elements like deckbuilding outside of game and card rarities are enough to define a distinct genre, I think.
although, i'm toying with a deckbuilder tcg, it still in very early stages, but the basic idea is for every match to start with one terrible starter deck of 12 cards, outside of game you customize your shop deck and your hero. Its only for fun to see if its possible, I don't have the resources to make an actual tcg and I'm not that delusional :v
TCGs have a big problem (?) to them: proxies and cubes. Since I've started making my own Cube I've ceased playing almost anything else. And as long as you don't distribute any proxies, you can't really get into legal trouble for printing proxies.
Cube turns the gambling part of your chosen TCG and takes spending money out of the equation: you can play a cube 50 times and not exhaust the avaliable options. People will start developing techs, grow attachments to certain cards or archetypes, and as long as you keep your cube changing and listening to feedback, you will keep interest in it. Its great.
It's still not quite the same feeling as working on your own personal deck in a tcg, but cubes are honestly fantastic. Most of the Magic I've played in the last 2 years or so has been cube, and even before that, it was one of my favourite ways to play. It also means you don't need to worry about staying on top of MTG's current power creep, which is nice.
@@tcgacademia My and my playgroup really got attached to our cube, and I don't think I've been attached more to another pile of cards. I used to play modern affinity during the Mox Opal days, but even though it was my fav deck it was never like our pile of 720 spicy commander cards.
nice and fun video overall, that usage of ygo's charas and vtubers really got me.
but for the point itself, let's say we are the one that going to release our game and choosing the tcg model. From your disadvantages point it can be said that the upfront cost is the biggest problem. But on the flipside, what about the advantages? while I agree on point 2 and 4, point 1 or 3 is hard sell. I don't think it's wrong, but it's more of the 'payoff' rather than the direct advantage you get from tcg model. If you are new game, obviously your cardpool and variety isn't that big, and if only few people playing it, the financial drive is not really there compared to established tcgs that already get this 'payoff'. To mitigate this, you need to constantly promote and supporting your game which back to upfront cost problem.
tl;dr tcg model cost too much upfront even before your game is stable, so as developer, keep that in mind.
and while at that ECG can lift that upfront cost, but you are also kind of missing on advantage point 2 and 3, so it's not your ideal solution too as it is, at least in the known model.
Yeah, 1 is nice for players, but not really a strong reason to make a game as a tcg as a design choice. I think 3 is a fair point, though - the financial incentives can help build a more robust community around the game, which can help sustain long-term growth. It is still a really challenging game genre to do well with, and the upfront and ongoing costs are definitely intimidating.
yeah after a bit more thinking my points can be shortened to the advantages are true for player side, while from designer side it can be still intimidating
{I'll do a bit of a timeline and commentary on this.}
00:00 Introduction
00:51 BUT...
This is kind of where I feel the plot of focusing on the game flew into what is a TCG. Mentioning how it's an LCG instead and if anything that has its own problems. (I'm not going to quote Kohdok for this but I'll give defining it a shot.)
LCG: A living Card game that has each and every piece required to play the game at the most optional configuration. This will likely cost a higher amount than what a normal TCG but the trade-off of deleting randomness can appeal to certain people.
01:07 What is a TCG
(Added note, you can also get an extra product from various items in relation to boosters such as product tins, competitive boxes, and trial/starter decks.)
02:14 Disadvantage of TCG #1 (Opposing Intrest)
This is where things can get harry since people are like dice. Have fun trying to get all of them within a range to agree on what to get. (How I feel this can be represented: Roll 20d20s and the requirement is to have a count of dice going in a raising or lower count and have a chain of 4 or more. Do this 3 times and you'll likely have how hard it is to TCG for the masses.)
04:10 Disadvantage of TCG #2 (Minimum Size)
In regard to Vanguard, that has changed back to something more standard. Also to note there are even TCG card games that have a slower time span to play with. One such that seems to release 1 set per year in a way is a card game... that follows the bible and religious texts. (NOT name-dropping here but it does exist.)
05:49 Disadvantage of TCG #3 (Balance)
Trust me... balance is MASSIVELY hard. But then again ban hammers are a thing too if needed or even card edits...but use those with care. PLEASE
07:06 Disadvantage of TCG #4 (Design Limitations)
At times limits can be good. I mean some card games can only do so much on a piece of cardboard. At least not without breaking certain details.
09:00 Disadvantage of TCG (Summary)
09:28 Advantage of TCG #1 (Variety & Depth)
It's not easy but yes, this is at times what is what a game is about, the variety of ways to play and while some are more... "Geese Howard" than the rest, there should be plenty to choose from to where the idea of playing "rebroken" will not always be on the mind.
*sees Raid and Keyforge and Netrunner and gets the nope soap.* Let's scrub that KRAP out of here. I would rather be given C-19 than play any of those games.
10:27 Advantage of TCG #2 (Ownership)
I'll admit that it does feel good that in a way the cards in my deck do belong to me and in a way feel like they can be what is desired but keep in mind that can be a bit of a razor's edge since some will sink a LOT into making something theirs. And in Yu-gi-oh's case... might want to add hospital bills to that.
11:20 Advantage of TCG #3 (Financial Alignment)
Questionable here...since the ending part can be put here. This feels more like it should be a different kind of investment that works here.
12:17 Advantage of TCG #4 (Exploring Design Space)
This is where I feel like this is RARELY done in a number of TCGs since they are seemingly trying to be Magic BUT rarely touch the other two of the big three. And yes, a play release of the game can do that. It's a very difficult thing to know how some cards roll if a portion of the cards isn't talked about. It'd be especially true if an archetype is hidden.
13:30 Advantage of TCG (Summary)
*Scrubs metazoo off the field.* Gahh... And yes...but that would be a YMMV moment. *Yelping to see two of the 3 come back as she hoses those.* NO...nononono...get that Trash out of here. And for the record LCGs are also able to become Expanding Card games... ECGs. It's where at times there are updates and new cards are released. And that is likely where extra costs can come in. **scrubs that screen again** I will never see the benefit of two of those games...
15:05: Conclusion
I'll admit that it is quite a task to pick which way a game can go and it is clearly something to think of.
16:12 end!
This is from someone that is doing it as a bit of a deeply personal project that can get quite thick if wanted so I'll say for me the TCG model has its ups and downs but in a way trying to ignore the normal 'rules' of game making and knowing what kind of audience to aim for can be more liberating than restrictive. (JUST keep in mind that if you are going for some if you are going in the harsh direction...think of what a tournament is... or a locals game night and design accordingly.) But then again this is someone who's trying to make a bank of abilities to try to give cards to pick a pool from rather than seemingly give bonk cards (cards with no effect) to be the powerhouse but then again...who knows?
This is fantastic, thanks for the detailed commentary! Glad to see you've stuck around, as well - it's always nice to see a familiar face (or pfp) in the comment section!
01:07 What is a TCG
I didn't go into detail, but random boosters are important as the primary way cards are distributed in a tcg. There's tons of secondary options to distribute cards within that model, though, random or non-random.
02:14 Disadvantage of TCG #1 (Opposing Intrest)
Full agree - designing a tcg to satisfy enough players to keep it afloat is really difficult.
04:10 Disadvantage of TCG #2 (Minimum Size)
Yeah, I was actually tempted to mention how Vanguard fell back into a more standard distribution in it's most recent reboot, but I was already running a bit long in this video, and Vanguard still releases a lot of product.
05:49 Disadvantage of TCG #3 (Balance)
Balance is tricky within one set, but it gets even worse as you make more sets - you need to make each set strong enough to sell, but also weak enough it doesn't invalidate player's collections of older cards. I agree it's one of the hardest parts of tcg design.
09:28 Advantage of TCG #1 (Variety & Depth)
Glad someone's calling me out for including Raid - at this point I'm honestly not even sure it's a game, or just a meme. Although I do actually like Keyforge, although more as a casual game than something to play competatively.
10:27 Advantage of TCG #2 (Ownership)
Definitely a razor's edge - at what point does 'ownership' just become 'pay to win'? It's really tricky and there a lot of overlap.
12:17 Advantage of TCG #4 (Exploring Design Space)
Agree on other games trying to be Magic (or Duel Masters, in Japan). There's a whole world of possible design space for card games out there, but it feels like a lot of them get caught up on 'fixing' some element of a game they already enjoy, and don't really delve into the design space tcgs can really offer. I think Flesh and Blood is a solid example of a tcg that does its own thing.
13:30 Advantage of TCG (Summary)
Metazoo is a great example of using the tcg model to generate hype - regardless of how well the underlying game plays.
15:05: Conclusion
Picking a direction can be really hard, especially since you want to also have things that appeal to a wide range of players. One of my favourite quotes from Mark Rosewater - "If everyone likes your game, but no one loves your game, your game will fail." Yeah, there's a lot of directions you can go, but keeping your own direction, with a strong sense of what audience you're aiming for, can absolutely be more liberating than restrictive.
the issue with MOST TCGs for me... you have a bulk of commons / rares that are unplayable and you basically can put them on fire since they are of no use.
Very few tcgs actually made commons / rares that are playable or made a format that explicity says "play only commons / rares". YGO is especially bad in this regard
That's a good point - even more generous TCGs still leave you with at least half of each pack being nearly unplayable filler, which is really unfortunate.
@@tcgacademia especially If they don't have a pauper Format or Dome draft Play were those cards could be playable
Especially when they decided to put fucking normal monsters in there
@@jmurray1110 even if the put effect monsters or Spells / Traps in there they were mostly trash and unplayable
But what if I agree with the consumer on this notion? 2:15
I mean, most players would. The problem from the producer/designer side is it's really hard to keep a game alive if no one wants to buy your product because they're perfectly satisfied with what they already have. Some tcgs are worse with this than others, but all of them do need some kind of balance between keeping sales chugging along without turning the game into a money pit.
@@tcgacademia I'm not saying I'm never gonna release new stuff for the game, it's just not gonna be as often
@@codenamexelda I like that idea - it feels like a lot of games fall into the trap of releasing more and more sets to try to maximize how much their player base spends, while newer players quickly get stuck looking at a massive wall of new releases and get shut out, while the preexisting players start getting new release fatigue and start losing interest. I definitely prefer a slower release schedule.
Isn't it supposed to be, basically a tabletop miniature wargame except it's useing cards instead of miniatures?
That's basically it - although I think using cards instead of miniatures does introduce several differences in gameplay.
If you made your card game to be laid in a precise pattern and move around that area then it's a board game not a card game.
Debatable - that definition can be applied to a ton of tcgs, like yugioh. I do agree this is a very board-gamey card game, but it's still a game played with cards as the primarily game components, so I think it's fair game.
There's a TCG with bacteria wifeys? Which is that? I want to play it! I want bacteria wifeys! Is it wixoss?
I just googled "yeast salmonella cholera wixoss" and the wixoss wiki says they have the Bacteria SIGNI Class. Are these they? Are these my new best friends?
Yep, it's wixoss. Unfortunately only in the Japanese format before the game came over to English - there's really not much in the bacteria class in the English side of the game :(
@@tcgacademia :c
ECGs always publish new sets far slower.
Yeah - which can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on what the game is trying to be.
Too many tcg atm
Never enough TCGs atm
And yet not enough choices of long-term games. (4 so far that has endured enough to be around for two digits of years. The newest being Cardfight Vanguard.)
This is definitely an interesting time for tcgs. Webcam play and easy online distribution are potential game changers - they allow for a much smaller 'critical mass' of fans to support a tcg. It'll be interesting to see how viable this ends up being long-term.
@@Yinyanyeow ummmmm weiss, Digimon, flesh and blood, Dtagon ball. I don’t think you know tcgs
@@Rayquaza894 Sorry but YOU got that wrong. I said four games that has two digits in existence and still going. Vanguard is barely over 10 years old. Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh are near 30 Years think. And Magic the Gathering is almost in range of 50 years. I mean how old is flesh and blood? The new Digimon? The nearest one if I think of the age of an ongoing game might be Weiss.
Sorry, but Legacy's Allure is actually a board game. It uses a board... The game pieces are cards.
Very good point