2001 Cummins 8.3L ISC CAPs Injection System - Faulty Engine Speed Sensor
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- 2001 Cummins 8.3L ISC CAPs Injection System Faulty Engine Speed Sensor
#1 ID 190 FM 2
This video was filmed 2 years after the algae in the transfer pump video • 2001 RV Cummins 8.3L I...
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I work for Cummins and the CAPS fuel system was a mess when it first came out and I'm glad that it was short lived. I know all too well how terrible those are to work on in an RV. As far as the two speed sensors go, if you noticed in the part where you were filming when using INSITE you'll notice that you had engine speed sensor and engine position sensor. Cummins uses one of those sensors for engine speed and the other is reading directly off of the back of the cam gear and is what is used to determine engine position, IE top dead center of 1 or 6. Cummins engines will run when either of the two goes bad but the engine will have an extended crank until it tries to figure out position with the other sensor not present to check against.
Now we know ha ha. Thank you Bryan.
I am sure that the new owners of this vehicle will always appreciate your efforts, Paul, in making sure that they’re family vacation vehicle is safe and reliable. An honest man is a great man. Thank you, Paul and Caleb (and Mrs. Danner for the cranking assistance)!
That's why I subscribed to him because he's honest. Love his videos.
The most awaited part of this series😍
Can't Thank you Guy's enough for sharing this one😍
Special Thanks to Caleb Dinner😎
Stay Blessed Guy's😍
I'm sorry for your dealings with the dreaded Iniste. I use it daily. This is 1 of the little engines I work on. I recently got a picoscope 4425A-099. It's not easy finding waveforms, especially from a master oscope diagnostic mechanic like yourself. Thanks for the videos!
Thanks so much
tech Ron that pass away many year ago had review on that gauge and how to program it .he was a very good ford diesel tech and good video
Ive only ever used scan gauge on fords, and it was because of rons videos. It is handy with reading ford sensors.
Paul, I’m a former cummins engine tech, worked at cummins mid south in Kenner Louisiana from 2013-2020. The CAPS Fuel system is a ROYAL PAIN when it’s actually malfunctioning and a real PITA to troubleshoot!
That said, you comments about the to engine speed sensors at the end of the video are incorrect. One reads drilled holes in the back of the cam gear, one is used for direct engine speed and the other is used for the 2 injection timing solenoids!
If memory serves me right the CAPS Fuel system used the CM850 ECM engine control! This was cummins first real version of electronic fuel injection and was supposed to be fuel efficiency and cruise control based.
I believe ECM Codes for the CM500 for power output we’re from 280-330 HP and 310-360 HP ranges. The ISC8.3 was known for producing about 800-1200 lb-ft at roughly 2400 rated engine speed.
Great generator engines but, turds in heavy RV’s and garbage trucks! The ISL8.9 CM875 HPCR or “High Pressure Common Rail” fuel management system was the start of the faze out of the ISC8.3 CM850 CAPS or “Cummins Accumulator Pump System” Fuel management system!
Thanks for the info! But the sensor do indeed read the same tone ring, check out the waveforms that I showed. They are simply staggered.
@@ScannerDanner so you had the tone ring timing gears, those aren’t usually on the bus, rv, tow truck and generator engines. Those tone ring timing gears are mostly used in higher HP 350 HP or higher rated engines on emergency vehicles like large 1-2 ton ambulances or large 1-2 ton fire trucks that have a class 7 weight rating. Your rv should’ve been a class 6 weight rating thus using the timing gears with drilled dimples in the gears (less than 350 HP)! Someone “upgraded your engine or installed a long-block that was rated for emergency vehicles!
@@80sfordguy not sure the class but it had a 41000 gvwr and was like 36 or 37k dry weight
@@ScannerDanner Although Paul dry weight and GVWR aren’t the same and are usually thousands of pounds in difference. Classes are separated by Dry Unloaded Empty Weight not Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. That weight of your RV couldn’t have been 41k because, your RV was small when compared to Large Tour Buses which are class 8 rated. The unloaded non-hauling empty weight of your RV 36k-37k has to be incorrect and likely was your GVWR or MAX Load Rating.
For a largely exaggerated example, your RV might’ve been able to be loaded with 50k of stuff but your max weight your suspension to legally transport on the highway would’ve been 36k-37k. Which would’ve made you severely overloaded! Typically, Semi trucks are class 8,
Flatbed tow trucks are class 6 or 7 by weight and RV’s typically are class 6 and larger are class 7! The weight ratings are dry empty load ratings. GVWR is wet or fully loaded maximum ratings for your suspension by the manufacturer of the vehicle or trailer.
Trucks are also classified more broadly by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA), which groups classes 1 and 2 as light duty, 3 through 6 as medium duty, and 7 and 8 as heavy duty! Then engine, transmission, suspension, axle and frame manufacturers use these load ratings to build, design and power the vehicles we purchase for use on the highways and byways!!! Cummins uses these ratings when designing an engine which is then designated by liter & cubic in size then by HP and torque output rating. Then the vehicle manufacturer uses the engine, trans, suspension and axle ratings to build the vehicle that you purchase and drive!
@@ScannerDanner Although Paul dry weight and GVWR aren’t the same and are usually thousands of pounds in difference. Classes are separated by Dry Unloaded Empty Weight not Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. That weight of your RV couldn’t have been 41k because, your RV was small when compared to Large Tour Buses which are class 8 rated. The unloaded non-hauling empty weight of your RV 36k-37k has to be incorrect and likely was your GVWR or MAX Load Rating.
For a largely exaggerated example, your RV might’ve been able to be loaded with 50k of stuff but your max weight your suspension to legally transport on the highway would’ve been 36k-37k. Which would’ve made you severely overloaded! Typically, Semi trucks are class 8,
Flatbed tow trucks are class 6 or 7 by weight and RV’s typically are class 6 and larger are class 7! The weight ratings are dry empty load ratings. GVWR is wet or fully loaded maximum ratings for your suspension by the manufacturer of the vehicle or trailer.
Trucks are also classified more broadly by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA), which groups classes 1 and 2 as light duty, 3 through 6 as medium duty, and 7 and 8 as heavy duty! Then engine, transmission, suspension, axle and frame manufacturers use these load ratings to build, design and power the vehicles we purchase for use on the highways and byways!!! Cummins uses these ratings when designing an engine which is then designated by liter & cubic in size then by HP and torque output rating. Then the vehicle manufacturer uses the engine, trans, suspension and axle ratings to build the vehicle that you purchase and drive!
Another excellent diagnosis and repair Paul. As for the Scanguage, I have the exact same one in my Dynasty with the ISL. Purchased it about 16 years ago when we bought the coach so I could monitor some of the same PID's and have verification of my analog dash gauges due to having two sensors per.
Mike
GREAT video Danner and Caleb!
As far as wrenching being a thinking man’s game… those of us out here doing both everyday all day already new that! 😂Lol!
When you go from resealing a ‘17 Lincoln mkz 3L twin turbo engine, to pulling a turbo on a ‘10 Audi A3, to trouble shooting a low power condition on a ‘16 Sierra (BTW that turns out to be 1 of the 2 GMlan high speed networks failing to output anything more than the 2.5V bias to the fuel pump control module😮), to replacing a cracked flex plate on a ‘13 caravan…. And so on…. And so on, there’s no doubt it’s a thinking man’s game!😊
But very good on you for saying it, Paul! ✌️
Awesome informative video. Great detail on the verification of diagnostics.
Thank you.
Caterpillar does the same thing with two engine speed sensors reading off the rear of the cam. The ecm uses the time between the readings on the two sensors to manage fuel delivery points throughout the rpm range. You have to remember that newer diesel engines use multiple bursts of fuel from the injector per compression/combustion stroke and the timing of those bursts are critical to the engine performing and meeting emissions. Gasoline engine technology is years behind the diesel world. Emissions are so much more stringent and hard to meet for diesel manufacturers especially on any engine that is on-road, hence why Caterpillar stopped producing on-road engines in 2010 and only produce engines for off-road machines and equipment.
DeoxIT D5 has saved me a few times. That is great stuff and should be in every mechanic's tool box and a couple on the shelf in the shop. That and a couple cans of CRC Electronic Cleaner.
Some great stuff Paul. Very interesting to see 2 crank sensors. One can only imagine that the strategy behind it is for a backup sensor to keep from having a big wheeled monster from dying on the highway over a single sensor messing up. Thanks again brotherman for sharing your knowledge and info.
Cheers my friend
This video was filmed 2 years after the algae in the transfer pump video ruclips.net/video/P3kAcBlky_U/видео.html
RV owners looking for the scan tool I am using? You can find it here www.amazon.com/shop/scannerdanner
Didn't see the scan tool. Are you talking about the Scan gauge D, or one of the professional types of tablets like Maxis, Autel.?
Sorry to see your rv go, was looking to learn more about diesel pushers. We have a 03 Newmar Dutch Star DP with a Caterpillar 3126E with 51k miles and always looking for info on servicing and trouble shooting these things to keep it running well. I was able to quickly diagnosis trouble with a multiple misfire on my wife's 03 Saturn ion Quad coup years ago using your 04 Saturn misfire video you recorded in your class or at your brother's shop. Thanks again .
Whooooo! ScannerDanner “DrConnectionFix” for the win!
Great video Paul and Caleb for these fine and interesting and educational always. Paul, I am sure the new owners can go on vacation and be sure they will get there safe and back safe. Your are a real blessing to all Paul God has given all of us a true Man of God. To you and your family stay blessed.
Thank you 😊
We had one of these in a water truck that the wheel came off and still worked! But it would randomly act up and not run. It was an interesting one for sure. Thankfully ours was a little easier to get to than your motor home
Good job me doing this kind of work for 30+years cummins is not bad considering volvo or freightliner and I have a good reference voltage to use on my pico
Great video Paul! I remember you suspecting the engine speed sensors when you made the video with the algae in the inlet port. It looks like you were on to something at that point, even though it wasn't the cause of the no start/low power at the time, it was probably a small contributor. It's not the best job to do, you even tried getting another shop to do it and they wouldn't, it's all good, you did it yourself and sometimes the satisfaction is priceless! The new owners are happy I'm sure! Peace and blessings my friend.
No, this was 2 years later! Thanks!
It is like a CMP & CKP, it needs both the sync pulses for timing similar to what Bernie Thompson calls Crank Space to know exactly where to fire the injectors in this diesel case. I am thinking if you scope the injector with only one speed sensor working then I might expect to see injector timing move from one crank space to the other and then the engine starts after a long crank time giving more chances at guessing actual timing with only one sync notch, thanks Paul for this video that I would have otherwise not watched but since it was on an RV, I went for it.
Great effort great work great video. Thanks Danner
Awesome video but had a very good question for you.. in ohms law. It states that if voltage goes up then amperage will go up. It also says that inversely, if amperage goes up, then voltage will come down. Can you explain that? Does it have something to do w power??
Saturday viewing sorted. :)
Nice diag Paul thanks for share
Keep up the great work
WOW! Such a good video.
Crank sensor could be obscured by underpower. Once supply voltage goes beyond the lower limit it doesn't output signal anymore. Today I was installing some software on my laptop when the battery voltage dropped down, the laptop screen dimmed and when plugged it could not restart any more. When windows recovered, I saw battery depletion affects chips on the motherboard. Looks it was short circuit, and then you unintentionally cleared it sensors became functional again!
Paul Danner that was a lot of fun and good work.😊 Deoxit to the rescue. Looks like one of those sensors was broke did you install one new or what. I did hear you say you replaced both of them so scratch that. Looking back I'm not sure you ever had a false engine speed sensor code of any kind due to fuel system. Staggered crank sensors has to be a limp home mode for you.
Fine time for the check light to come on. The vehicle knows his time is up
Nice job! Welcome to heavy duty world, technical infos are non sense sometimes on hd trucks
Wow! Just in time. I'm working on an '05 Ford F750 (Cummins 5.9). What a pain in the .....! Gotta have a Ford manual for the chassis, an Allison manual for the trans, a Cummins' manual for the engine, and a really expensive Cummin's Insight scan tool to talk to the engine. Then the Cummins manual throws a curve ball and say in the troubleshooting the lift pump outpressure should be 78-150 PSI, but in the theory of operation is says lift pump pressure is 11 PSI. Good grief! I finally found a scan tool and checked the fuel rail pressure ... GTG! Now I'm going after the turbo actuator. Scan tool is showing 0 PSI boost pressure even with a brake torque.
Update 26 Jul. Turned out the intake manifold pressure sensor (boost pressure) was dead. Connected lab scope to signal wire, and witnessed 480 mv that stayed constant during brake torque. 5v ref good, ground good. Installed new sensor and KOEO signal voltage jumped to 980 mv with voltage increase during brake torque.
thats how it is bro “ she had a fit for her last time wit you “ i can’t tell you how many times that’s happened to me but when i haven’t did anything to my truck only other family members lol
Wonder how much R and D Cummins did before putting CAPS out
Perfect.
Is the picoscope software free? I bought an RV with the scan gauge tool and I have the same code intermittently.
The software is, but that will do you no good without the lab scope itself which is not free. There are other options for you. A single channel uScope master kit runs about $400 from my friends at AESwave www.aeswave.com/scannerdanner
FASS fuel filter system I installed to push the fuel back to the engine and polish it
I missed you man, has been a long time no video posted
I've been consistently uploading content
Nice !
7:18-7:22 left side of screen in tubing there are air bubbles there but for some reason not visible with the exposed portion of tubing. (might be refresh rate of camera aka shutter speed)
The only bubbles we ever saw in that line was left over from when we installed it
I would add Boost to your ScanGauge in place of volts
I dont remember if that was an option. I sold the RV 😪
@@ScannerDanner I have that same gauge and yes it is an option.👍
I just posted a comment earlier today on your thorough diagnostic process. Very impressive. I have a challenge for you. Perhaps your thought process can help in my situation. I’ve been involved in diesel engine mechanics most all of my life. CAPS is a new animal. I did my research on the system and am very impressed with the new technology for improved combustion. However, with the extreme pressures that this rail system runs at, I’ve never seen an injector line have the connector ferrule blown off. This is where the delivery side connects to the connector line through the valve cover to the injector. Mine was on the #3 line. I’d like to upload a photo to you.
Bob
I wish I could help further. I'm a gas engine specialist and work on very few diesel fuel systems. Yes the electronics and electrical troubleshooting is the same, but when it come to the fuel delivery systems, I'm just not your guy. I had to research for hours, to troubleshoot this CAPs system and our issues never got into the high side and the injectors themselves, so my knowledge is limited. I do have a forum on my website with over 30k global members and 4 hand picked moderators who help me help you guys. It's free to join www.scannerdanner.com
Maybe we can help you there. Thank you!
I have a Mazda system I work on once in a while and it has what looks like a distributor, it's not, but it does drive off the cam in the same way. It has a flat steel plate with two rows of windows, each row with its own hall effect sensor. In the diagram they're called crank and cam sensor. Whatever! Lazy engineering is what that is. I don't know what Cummins deal is but it sure sounds familiar.
What code thing do you have by the camera?
Pretty sure I cover that in this video. I don't remember, sorry. Also check the description and my Amazon Affiliate page (link in description)
is two for redundancy ie limp home because you did limp home
My guess, and this is only a guess, is that 2 crank sensors in that configuration is for redundancy. A long crank time is better than walking !
Algaecide is a good solution for for algae in your tank
You're lovely boxer dogs could have come handy at the end of the video for you with lots of cuddling and such :)
❤
one goes bad still runs lucky you
I thought Danner had a big house in long beach. He lives just me on a 50k family income.
I live modestly my friend. I don't need "stuff"
"Never buy an RV." - Lehto
I’m sad too
Did you negotiate visitation rights when you sold the RV? (or gave it up for adoption)
hehe, poor fella doesn't know what he got himself into. lol, motorhomes BLEAH 🤢🤮🤮🤮
Nah, he does. He's a truck driver!
@@ScannerDanner haha, motorhomes are not trucks, far harder to service and endless money pits! he'll be gouging out his eyes lol.
@@throttlebottle5906 it was a solid rig but yeah there is always the next problem
FYI
fuel pressure testing on some cummins stuff requires u too hook a special setup to the compucheck fittings using a .043 hose
f01.justanswer.com/diesel3153/dbdef012-52ce-4976-8c4f-01a201f85f88_air_in_fuel.pdf
That was the size of the orifice for the bleed right?
@@ScannerDanner thats the size of hose that u stick into a bucket
it simulates the amount of fuel used under load
it allows you to test wide open under load fuel system while the unit is parked
@@jordanboulay3780 so it's the hose itself that's the restriction. Got it. They showed how to build one in the Cummins service info. But I didn't have that size orifice sitting around lol
@@ScannerDanner yes
i sent you screenshot by email of the part of the service info that tells you what I told you
that link I sent has good info also
hopefully you wont need this info anymore seeing as you sold the rv
rvs can be pleasnt to work on
I did one a few weeks ago they told me it needed a starter I went their with a new starter and found an 11Volt drop between engine block and starter ground stud
working threw side compartments and under the bed of the rv is never fun lol