The relationship between VO2 max, power output, and endurance | Peter Attia and Olav Aleksander Bu
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- Опубликовано: 19 мар 2024
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This clip is from episode 294 - Peak athletic performance: How to measure it and how to train for it from the coach of the most elite athletes on earth with Olav Aleksander Bu. Olav is an internationally renowned sports scientist acclaimed for his coaching prowess with elite athletes spanning a diverse range of sports disciplines.
In this clip, they discuss:
- Why VO2 max is not the greatest predictor of exceptional human performance
- What is the best proxy surrogate metric for VO2 max when measuring for cylcing performance?
- Is power at VO2 max a more insightful metric than VO2 max alone, for measuring athletic performance?
- And more
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About:
The Peter Attia Drive is a deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing longevity, and all that goes into that from physical to cognitive to emotional health. With over 70 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including exercise, nutritional biochemistry, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more.
Peter Attia is the founder of Early Medical, a medical practice that applies the principles of Medicine 3.0 to patients with the goal of lengthening their lifespan and simultaneously improving their healthspan.
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Runner here! My vo2 Max is now 62. Glad to hear this!
I am 57 with a VO2 max currently at 55. I have had mild hypertension my whole life. It is genetic in my case. I have done everything to get off my medication, but nothing has worked. I exercise and eat right and am in great shape. Maybe it's just genetics in my case.
Saying someone with a high VO2 Max is the best longevity marker is a classic case of confusing causation with correlation. This is especially true as the age of the subject increases.
I.e. any elderly person who has a high VO2 Max would have had to have been healthy for a long enough time to continue to lead a life where they exercised frequently and with intensity.
Your are king to ague something idea. So, please give what is best to predector human sports/life performance. ?
A quick question in the segment portion of VO2Max versus VO2 steady state and that power output in between that determines duration. To me it sounds like VO2max would be the max power you can sustain for the shortest amount of time in the Integral time period of VO2 so say 2 or 3 minutes. While VO2 minimum, might be FTP or just above, but would be in the duration range of 6 to 10 minutes. Would then VO2 Steady state actually be the duration of 4-5 minutes that gets labeled as VO2 max or is this determined more by lactate threshold.
VO2 max measurements measure air volume turnover relative to the person's body weight. VO2 can change by simply losing or gaining weight. Cardiovascular capacity doesn't need to change.
Vo2 max can be measured as an absolute metric
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I've never seen VO2 expressed without the subject's weight being part of the math. Have you?
You talk like its easy to raise🐒 you know whats easy to raise? Static power output like lifting weights.
Improving aerobic capacity is the single hardest thing in sports
@@PKperformanceEU Yes, because increasing absolute VO2max is not a realistic goal for a healthy, well trained person. That would imply that metabolic rate can be increased, which is only true if the subject was either under eating, underperforming in the test, or the test protocol was inadequate. Although all three of those scenarios are probably quite common.
6:35 Bradley Wiggins and Mark Cavendish are track cyclists who have won the Tour De France yellow and green jerseys respectively
Yes and many 4K persuiters have gone on to be successful gc riders. It’s interesting how that 4-5 minute power translates so well to everything else
Add Geraint Thomas to that list. Also Filippo Ganna won multiple global 4km titles and yet podiumed Milan-San Remo (300km). Exercise physiologists often fail to understand the breadth of capabilities of athletes who could be characterised as middle-distance specialists. Many top middle-distance runners can approach international level performances for distance from 400 metres (the longest sprint) up to half marathon. They'll often have Vo2max close to the best marathon runners yet can sprint well.
@@stevenbalderstone709 And let's not forget that G actually won the TdF in 2018!
You missed his point.
They obviously changed their training before going into TDF.
@@dastolh no I don’t think so. Being a good 4K persuiter translates extremely well to riding a grand tour stage. That 4-5 minute power sustain translates to virtually everything in bike racing.
Glad I have a mid 60s vo2 max. I’ll live forever!
I just did my FTP test. I was disappointed but the score is the same. One thing I noticed I was not gasping for air. I can also maintain zone 4 and 5 long than before.
Ofc you are disappointed, your training is trash. Or you are not talented to any degree.
Either way massive amounts of z1-z2 should raise FTP
Blumgartner’s scientist!
Is there a muscle biopsy study that correlates vo2max and the mitochondrial count inside muscle fibres ?
Thank you for your work.
Of course not
I used to work in the biggest pathology lab in Europe and we’ve done muscle biopsies on high level cyclists but we haven’t compared VO2 max to mitochondrial density
@@jimjamthebananaman1 thank you very much ! very appreciated.
Pretty cool question, but you'd need a lot of dead people with a range of VO2 max. Most people never have theirs measured, and if they do the measurement methods aren't the same which creates issues.
You're using energy systems beyond the mitochondria when working at your Vo2 max I believe. Will be correlated I'm sure however
I do my vo2 max on a elliptical and gradually get y heart rate to threshold then I up the power/cadence/work until I get into my vo2 hr zone then hold it there by gradually turning the power/cadence/work down then when it becomes uncomfortable I lower my hr to threshold then repeat. I can and will hit my max heart rate numerous times. I’m doing this for an hour and twice a week. I’m not interested in the power I’m putting out but the time in my Vo2 zone.
What would you do in regards to wanting power?
You “start to feel uncomfortable” around MAX heart rate? Even if you are reaching higher and higher heart rates with multiple cycles, I still doubt you are reaching genuine max if you are quickly backing off upon discomfort.
...Wow. Thanks for telling us what's going on at the center of the universe, Mr. Important.
And how long have you been doing this for? How many weeks. ?
@douglasbootintheass6836, We're all so excited to hear your little remedial workouts. 😁
What is a good VO2 Max for someone in their sixties? My Garmin watch thinks mine is 43.
that's pretty good. Im pretty darn active 37 y/o and my Garmin says mine is 42. However, I mountain bike more than anything. My Garmin Vo2max only seems to go up after I run
@@brettwilliams2290 that's very interesting. I cross country ski in the winter here in Fairbanks Alaska. I mostly bike in the summer on my mountain bike and do hiking too. Garmin estimate went up last summer Briefly to 44. I did a crazy amount of skiing in April. Last ski was on May
5. So I think it was the amount of skiing that did it.
My watch is the forerunner 255 music
Cyclist, age 74, vow max according to Garmin 56
@@NDATasmania That is really excellent.
Initially, many years ago ,I used a turbo to improve leg strength,, which , today we know as power , while using a turbo,, I became accustomed to max output breathing,, & heart rate,which I guess as a swimmer, I was already acutely aware of . Playing around with my output,, modifying my breathing 😮💨, for example ,holding my max heart rate , for 12mins , dripping with sweat 💦, I felt I trained my heart and lungs as much as my legs , as the efficiency ,oxygen transfer , improved .This impacted my swimming , effort per held breath , directly.
Let me guess, now you can beat Michael Phelps! 😅
Curious why the topic of VVO2 doesn't come up in these conversations. High Max VO2 is important in endurance and longevity, but VVO2 is a better performance indicator as it lets you know how well your body can utilize all that Oxygen you can intake.
Because they don't know enough about training and VO2max testing.
at this point in time i feel like these videos are reducing my life span, i might have to stop clicking on this stuff, thanks Dr Attia and all the others. I do 80/20 with some strength and flexibility and eat healthy unprocessed stuff ...
Can u separate VO2 max from muscle strength or not. That's derivative question that remains. Can you reach your vo2 max and potentially never be able to improve it (for us guys over 40) yet have better overall PRs because we work on muscle strength. Guys, you need to keep it simple and practical. Not all your listeners are professional athletes and PhDs
You can separate them. Yes you can improve your PR at an event by other ways than improving vo2 max, depends on the event by how much. Like PR bench press is going to have no relation to VO2 max, but or marathon will have a lot more. Can still improve marathon time without vo2 max improving, that would be a more anaerobic effort near the end I’m guessing
Yes, you improve aerobic endurance with training and experience, but not aerobic capacity. They are two different things.
Aerobic endurance is the skill factor of delaying muscle fatigue though improved neural function, which can improve enormously with good training.
And Aerobic capacity is your highest level of aerobic metabolism, and doesn't increase if you are already in good health and general fitness.
Aren’t there some crude but 99% easier ways to get at this number? Like 400M in X time at Y weight?
Do people with genetically higher Vo2max live longer than average person when neither exercises? Vo2max is a metric of a physical state which will not be relevant unless you actually use it i.e. exercise at high intensity. Hence the direct correlation of high Vo2max and performance or life expectancy is a bit simplified and partly false statement?
First part is correct, yes it’s largely genetic. It’s not simplified or false though, it’s simple and true.
strong genetic determination of peak vo2max, even without training. however, i'm not aware of studies that longitudinally investigate genetic determination of vo2max over lifetime. and yes, data does strongly suggest that maintaining high vo2max over lifetime is best predictor of lifespan.
@@esgee3829 you’re saying things that agree with what I said but it sounds like you’re not…?
You re trying to get a free meal, there is no free meal.
People with higher untrained vo2max are generally just a touch higher, like 45ml vs 40ml.
What separates people is the degree of adaptations from aerobic exercise.
NO FREE MEAL
Killian Jornet should live to 150 with his 90.2 VO2 max 😃
only if he maintains it over time. lots of examples of elite endurance athletes who "retire" and vo2max drops, for various reason, and they don't live nearly as long as you might think. this is an "area under the curve issue" to have vo2max be very high for 1 or 2 or even 3 decades is not nearly as great as keeping it from decaying over the subsequent decades. of course there seems to be grey area created by the rate of decay issue (hear attia talk about "integral over time").
@@esgee3829he's talking about the area under the curve, that's the definition of the specific integral from "t1-t2. Dodo.😅
Study showed. Human only live until 80 y/o if the people didnt hit by car. 🤣🤣🤣
@@BonaRunNow actually, by 80 they start hitting others with car because nobody takes away license and they have no other option (because uber is actually terrible in every way possible for everyone involved except early investors and maybe some current shareholders).
No. When talking about longevity and Vo2max correlation, it's very strong when you compare for example 25ml/kg/min vs 45ml/kg/min. When comparing 60ml/kg/min vs 80ml/kg/min, It doesn't matter anymore. Only if it's unhealthy low, it correlates strongly. Which is the case for most people. Very few of us are walking around even over 55ml/kg/min.
Perhaps this is a matter of disrupting our body’s natural tendency for equilibrium. Athletes and/or physically active people have bodies that are conditioned for aerobic activity. Could it be said that VO2Max is more challenging for them to attain because their body is anticipating a certain level of exertion?
Is it (initially) easier for a
sedentary person to achieve VO2Max than an athlete?
Quack
Untrained individuals can usually rapidly improve their VO2 Max, to a limit. Athletes are already way down the spectrum of diminishing returns. The best athletes don't always have the highest VO2 Max. I think the nuance was lost here is that when all things are otherwise equal between two athletes, the one with the higher VO2Max should perform better. There are many more factors at play to athletic performance, such as maximum energy output, efficiency, aerodynamics, fatigue resistance, fueling strategy, calories-per-hour an athlete can absorb during long duration endurance events...etc.etc.
Can’t VO2max be changed quickly by losing or gaining weight?
Yes but numerically.
You can gain a higher vo2 max score in your computer when you lose weight, silly because of the calculation however, do you really perform better? Many do but at which level? It’s darn complicated.
This is a limited observation, but I've seen more overweight people transition into being great recreational athletes compared to those who started underweight.
Yes, which is why Peter has stated that ideally VO2 Max should be measured relative to lean mass rather than overall weight, but that's unfortunately not how most do it. It's frustrating for those of us who are bigger but work out regularly, because we don't really know where we stand.
Anyone ever put wealth in as a substitute for vo2 max in determining longevity? Is that a contender?
That's a fair point. I wonder if these studies are removing/including such variables.
Either way, the data only works at the population level. At the individual level, there's a lot of statistical "noise".
Well put.
That was the longest question ever
If this is true, why don't elite endurance athletes live longer then average?
they do? that's kinda the whole point
@@seth6082 Pick an endurance sport, and look through olympic winners. You will not be impressed with how long they lived
@@zombi3lif3 what would you consider an "impressive" age of death? its all relative. going through wikipedia and seeing some athletes died at 72 doesnt mean anything. here's a meta analysis showing elite athletes live longer than the general population:
Lemez S, Baker J. Do Elite Athletes Live Longer? A Systematic Review of Mortality and Longevity in Elite Athletes. Sports Med Open. 2015;1(1):16. doi: 10.1186/s40798-015-0024-x. Epub 2015 Aug 13. PMID: 26301178; PMCID: PMC4534511.
and another one refuting the j curve hypothesis:
Runacres A, Mackintosh KA, McNarry MA. Health Consequences of an Elite Sporting Career: Long-Term Detriment or Long-Term Gain? A Meta-Analysis of 165,000 Former Athletes. Sports Med. 2021 Feb;51(2):289-301. doi: 10.1007/s40279-020-01379-5. Epub 2020 Dec 24. PMID: 33368029; PMCID: PMC7846545.
differences in healthspan are likely even greater but i dont have an article for you there.
You don’t keep your VO2 max just because you were a great athlete once upon a time, you have to keep it up. An Elite Athlete’s physical advantages can dive steeply during the decades after their prime depending on their choices.
They do if they continue to do sports. If they stop at 25, then the effect is small. As professional sports are not that old, there will not be a visible effect in our populations yet.
I'm too dumb to understand the practical application of this discussion 😂
Basically moving your ass intensely a few times a week is good.
If you want to live a long healthy life do more cardio. And more like a cyclist, not like a bodybuilders cardio
@@HkFinn83 Thank you. I'm on the right track.
@@HkFinn83what’s a Bodybuilder cardio? Like coach Greg’s cardio or Sam Sulak’s cardio?
@@fitwithartin tbf to Greg I think he actually does some real training on swift and outdoors as well. Don’t know about Sam but by bodybuilding cardio I mean…10 minutes waddling on that stepper thing. Or walking on a treadmill. Things like that. There’s a lot of people doing bodybuilding training and a couple minutes of very gentle ‘cardio’ and thinking they have a balanced routine that’s good for their health. There’s nothing wrong with some resistance training but if you’re training for health and longevity, there should be an emphasis on getting into really good cardiovascular and pulmonary condition, like a cyclist or a runner. Pushing your vo2max as high as possible.
Why not counting swimming?
Because VO2 max is all about the amount of oxygen your body can uptake, which is very similar to lung capacity in swimming. So VO2 max is a good performance indicator for swimming and that is why I hope Peter chose to exclude it, as it is very obvious performance metric.
It doesn’t correlate as well in swimming because the ‘efficiency’ of different body types and perhaps skill level in swimmers changes the correlation so much. It’s not irrelevant, but nothing like as well correlated as cycling.
Using swimming to indicate vo2 max is not a good predictor because swimming requires a lot more technique in order to minimize drag through the water.
Attia is showing signs of dementia 😁
Explain the joke?
I'm willing to bet there's a lot of young and high Vo2 individuals in the graveyard. That's the thing about stats, you can make them say just about anything.
Usually like Attia but ths is pseudo-intellectual rubbish. Definitive conclusions like 'best predictor of longevity' followed by 'probably'. Completely vacuous discussion. And an integral of work done over time? Nothing of the sort. It is a point measurement (not an integral): a snapshot of cardiovascular performance obviously linked to ability to work, but work is about power output over time, irrespective of VO2max.
i always like how peter looks disappointed with people's answers 😂
It's because Peter is showing signs of dementia.😅
Cycling is all about vo2max and LT what are you talking about ?🐒
Swimming is takes much less aerobic fitness