Did they Break their Promise?
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- Опубликовано: 3 июн 2024
- This video is brought to you by Magali Villeneuve's Kickstarter, which ends soon - so get involved now:
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People were upset to see Wizards of the Coast hiring a "Principal AI Engineer" as they had said they wouldn't use generative AI in their Magic the Gathering and Dungeons and Dragons products.
Turns out, they are still committed to that promise.
#sponsored #mtg #magicthegathering 
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I started playing because of the Illustrations. If they start using AI for the art on the cards, I will just stop buying their product. Maybe nobody else cares, but I surely can play the game forever with what I already have.....
Thunder Junction has AI art lol
@@ioioioio5997Which cards?
Proxy for life
Only picked some singles, didn't purchase sealed product because the Illustrations are awful.....
@TubbyBubbleLove42 Kambal, Profiteering Mayor is very obvious. Anyone else not seeing it?
Really appreciate how you consistently go above and beyond most content creators to highlight the artists who make this game tick.
I too understand that its important to recognise the creative artists invovled with making the products that we consume. I see the people who have created AI art programs as also creative, just in a different way. So if we did start using AI art in magic cards then we would just need to recognise different people.
How is this an issue?
As a computer engineer who specialized in AI, I'm honestly baffled that companies are even considering using AI "art". It's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
It's not just that they don't learn like a human, but they are also prone to something called overfitting. Which basically means that there's a random chance that the AI will output an almost perfect copy of a copyrighted work.
Every time you use it for commercial purposes, at best, got art that you can't copyright, and at worst, you're playing russian roulette with a plagiarism or copyright infringement lawsuit.
It's taking a while because of how complex and unintuitive AI's are to the average person, but once the legal system catches up, it's gonna be a shitshow.
Its also worse than cheap digital art. I would rather pay a good artist 2,000$ for a piece of art, maybe even a larger piece that i can get two/three cards out of it, than invest 1,000's in an experimental program which may give me something subpar, if i beat it enough with a stick.
That's not a problem. When you think AI you apparently think about the publicly accessible versions. But corporations that have their own vaults of data aren't limited to using those. They can train models on the data they own. My guess is that WotC has quite a bit of documentation on their card-design process, as well as a lot of additional artwork that they contracted, but didn't use on released cards. If they have the patience, they can avoid the legal pitfalls and eliminate a lot of those pesky humans from their payroll without most players noticing.
I don't think that is a given at all. WoTC can train their AI with their own art if they want to. Plus specifically the US is a settling country. If money gain > lawsuit settlements it's a nobrainer. Really how a lot of the system works. Longterm there is no way AI art is going to be copyrighted/illegal indefinitly.
They could train there own model on all there own archive of card art and legally use that.
@@joegaffney8006 I'm no expert, but I think one of the issues with AI training is that you need actual millions of images, to get a versatile model.
There is already more genuine creative art made every week than any human could hope to take part of in a year. Machines that can only produce vast amounts of slop extremely cheaply are incapable of improving this situation. The only people who can possibly stand to benefit from this are people for whom cost is the only concern and who are absolutely apathetic as to the quality of their actual output.
I think the second worst thing that this job posting did was marking a principal engineer as a mid to senior level position, when it's like the second highest IC role.
Yeah, it also requires 7+ years as an engineer in a LEAD capacity. So for total experience this person would need like 10 years at a bare minimum but more likely at least 12-15 years. Hardly a mid-senior role
Shout out to the OG Neverwinter Nights at the 21-minute mark. One of the best games wizards ever been a part of. Still play to this day.
The reason all of this generated media is so strange is because the AI is trying to predict what to do without any amount of understanding. Essentially the AI references it's database (probably scrapped data from google) to guess at what goes where but it won't know that this is a bookshelf or that a human being doesn't have a lovecraftian lump of melted fingernails for a hand.
Honestly, as a computer engineer, I'm baffled that they manage to accomplish so much despite how genuinely stupid they are.
It's all just weighted patterns of pixels all the way down.
Just speaking to the automation point - in the past, creating machines to automate processes in a factory for example did eliminate jobs but it also relieved humans from dangerous and difficult physical labor. Generative AI art doesn't do that and to the extent that it speeds up production of media, this doesn't benefit anyone but shareholders. Just think about how much media it is even possible to consume, how many games you can even play in a given week or year. While I sympathize with those who wish to see their artistic vision produced faster and at higher quality - making more media faster probably doesn't offer any huge benefits to society at this point.
I would even argue against the "higher quality" part. It just makes media generation cheaper and faster
That's a strawman argument. The people who lost their jobs to automation weren't signing it's praises of getting them out of dangerous work. That's something people now say after the fact since the statistics now support it. And what do you mean it's not dangerous or difficult labor? Are you not aware of how over worked, under payed and massively crunched all the developers in the gaming industry are? Or for instance Japanese animators who literally work themselves to death, like the creator of Berserk? AI is coming for them and will alleviate all their suffering so they have nothing to worry about by your logic?
Also to try and make the arrogant blanket statement that "making more media faster doesn't offer any huge benefits to society at this point" Using AI tools is one of the easiest ways for a creative without the tallents to do so to dip their toes into becoming a creative in things they never would have been able to do before. Just like when artists became able to buy a tablet and make unlimited amounts of artwork without having to pay for canvas and paint. It's factually another level of human progression providing a tool to make peoples lives easier.
AI is just a tool. And like any other tool how it's used and how it's regulated will determine how people use it. if you make it illegal for them to mass scrape data without permission then you stop artists having their content stolen. You make laws around replacing labor with AI. Because yes slaving away at a graphic design or a code base for 8+ hours a day is labor even if you don't seem to think it is. It all comes down to regulating the tool and the companies who intend to use it. You'll never stop the technology, you have to embrace and regulate it.
@@russellhumphrey5209yea, for me that's the rub. Kinda what Kenobi said, I don't mind the smaller indies using it since they may not be able to afford artists. But big companies? They just want to churn out stuff faster and cheaper, not better. The big issue with WOTC using ai (to me) is the likely drop in quality control and increased oversaturation of the market. Imagine what would happen. If WOTC was allowed to run rampant with ai. We'd have a new set every other week where half the cards are either banned or errataed due to either rules violations or super powered.
And it's not just WOTC.
@toolittletoolate I'll add several things onto this because it's often understated just how many legal loopholes need to be exploited for AI's like this to even exist.
The scraping is obvious, but I think people don't realise just how insane it is. The amount of information they need to churn through is so insane that even just crediting the authors would be completely impossible.
Same with illegal materials. If laws about them were properly enforced, they'd have to completely retrain the AI from scratch every time one is found to remove its traces.
As if that were not enough, these AI's have actually revolutionised an entire job sector. Except it's not that of artists, it's slavery. Those datasets still need to be tagged, which would be really expensive if it wasn't really easy to exploit people in third world countries for a fraction of a living wage.
Without those things, it's almost impossible for these generative AIs to exist. They are a very interesting development in machine learning, but they aren't useful, not even as tools.
Even a remotely ethically trained AI would be so much worse and insanely more expensive. They are simply not practical, we have plenty of free assets for upcoming artists to use. Just invest on that instead.
And no, it won't get better. We got here precisely by making bigger and more wasteful AIs. The biggest improvement in the field is how good we've gotten at spending those insane amounts of resources.
@@toolittletoolate Ok, first - the creator of berserk wasn't an animator. Second - he died, yes, but not because of overwork, or even because of health issues related to his work. Well, aortic dissection is not usually related to being an animator or mangaka. Third - Kentaro Miura worked at monthly magazine, but mostly released new chapters as they were done, with no real deadlines. The manga was often on long hiatuses. Miura even took breaks from making Berserk to create different side projects. Doesn't really sound like actions of overworked person.
If you want an artist that is known to be destroyed by manga industry look no further than Yoshihiro Togashi, author of Hunter x Hunter. It's well documented that he basically destroyed his back when working on his manga, and the publisher did ignore his attempts at getting rest to heal until it was too late.
Both manga and anime are toxic enough industries that you don't have to make up fake reasons for death of anyone. I'm not disagreeing with your point, I'm only correcting the example.
This could totally be to convert 2D art to 3D through AI to add some production value back in Arena rather than hiring artists to model art from cards individually.
WotC can easily sidestep the "AI art in games" critique by just hiring an AI engineer and set up their own systems that we won't ever see - it's likely that most of what they will use AI for is automating internal processes like employee training videos, customer assistance chatbots, writing copy, producing sketches and mockups for internal testing, transcribing meetings and taking notes, managing documentation, and even generating social media posts or engagement that will likely be impossible to identify. Will it replace jobs? For sure. But it likely won't be the ones we are most worried for (artists, game developers, etc.), since we can vote on these by not buying product that looks or seems AI-generated... and the community has spoken pretty clearly about this. WotC will likely automate jobs though, from coders to comms to interns. Yeah it sucks, but it's also the current cycle of industry hype - we'll need to see how it plays out in the long run, it is possible that the investment will not have good returns and actually harm productivity. I don't think there is much to applaud in WotC's stance on AI art, since they also do that for profit - they want to keep making money, which they wouldn't if people stopped buying cards with AI-generated slop.
Also, AI art has no copyright. Even just partially using it might weaken their claims over the whole piece.
@@_Ve_98 false parroted point. Wholesale generated art cannot be copyrighted, but using ai in your art can still allow you to copyright it, no different than using public domain art in your piece.
If they started generating art or cards using AI, why are you so confident that the public would A) know that it's AI and/or B) these AI elements wouldn't be a part of every set released until infinity? Do you really believe that MTG consumers would stop buying product because 30 cards every set are made with AI?
@@smartkaboose3806 because it will look like shit
They don't even need to sidestep it. They will do what they always do: lie. Which in this case is even understandable. It's completely delusional to think that a profit oriented company will not use new tech to boost their margins. And why not? In the end what really matters about Magic is the play experience. Regardless of what tools they use to make their product, people will always have emotional reactions when looking at the cards and playing with them, which will inform their future buying decisions. So in whatever way WotC will produce their cards, they still need to curate the process to make sure the final product clicks with their customers.
Being in this field I wanted to say a couple of things to give perspective of what this role is. A principle engineer is a top level technical leader in a company. It's just like it says in the brief, they expect this person to be the most experienced engineer and leader when it comes to generative AI at the company. They are looking for a golden goose and I'd expect the pay to be in a range of 300-400k. Experience with Game AI is optional meaning that its primary a generative AI role not a games role. They're looking for someone to come in and find ways to produce ai content for whatever project they have going. Principle engineers do not necessarily work at a given project level. They work at product levels are are cross department multipliers, meaning they're role is to find ways to bring profit cross teams and cross projects. So they may be hiring for a particular project atm, but they will be soon defining and applying these tools and procedures cross products. Though finding the right person is rare. They aren't posting a remote position so I'm not applying and they're really just going to get who they can get or who they're going to pay enough to get. I'd be concerned of the person over the position. Odds are they'll flop. Hope you keep an eye out like you always do Kenobi!
Something that often goes overlooked with these AI job listings is that we already have countless stories of companies that tried this and had to fire the people involved and shut it down and never look back because the AI prompt writers couldn't implement feedback. Seldom is your first draft of concept art going to be the final finished product.
That NeverWinter Nights splash screen hit me in the feels
Aventia is still running, lo these many years ..
honestly unless there is the level of push back that would come from it being for magic, it will definitely lead to it, because hasbro has absolutely shown they will slowly weasel stuff people don't want in by degrees if we let them. if this doesn't lead to a loss of profits for WotC, then it will eventually lead to it. Draw your line or else be ready for the coming future.
I think what gets me when wizards cuts so many corners is, this is a hobby, it's a luxury, it's something fun to do with your friends, and the only thing that used to make it feel unique was that wizards had a vision for the game. The less and less they care, the more it's like, we should just play mario kart, because it's about the same experience.
I've played Magic since I was a kid, first being drawn to the cards because of their evocative imagery, and then having the realization that these fantastical and often horrifying creations were all drawn and painted by people. I unlocked a new level of fear when I saw Todd Lockwood's Delraich painting as a kid. Knowing humans could create to that level inspired me to pursue drawing and painting, and it became my life's obsession and pursuit.
I feel like we may face an inevitable future where the artwork on the bulk of Magic cards will be at least heavily AI-assisted, if not fully AI generated, to keep up with product release. Bulk cards are more likely to receive such a treatment, while special chase cards and Secret Lairs would likely retain actual human-crafted artworks. And that to me is still sad, because I've discovered so many artists I love just going through "jank" boxes and looking at the art. The game was always a trove of inspiration for me, and that's the main reason I hold onto so many of my bulk cards.
I spent a few years away from Magic and came back to see it completely changed, now featuring pop culture characters and set releases so fast that I can't track what is supposed to be "standard" now. I love Magic, I'll likely play the game for the rest of my life, but if AI art starts populating the cards, I'm going to be playing with a lot more custom art proxies.
I found Magali's work through you Kenobi! Thank you!
That's amazing! I assume you had seen her art in the game but never realised?
I love the Neverwinter Nights graphic near the end of the video. That's one of my favorite games on all time.
It’s reasons like this that I keep recommending Sorcery Contested Realm . A TCG with 100% hand painted art and giving a lot back to the artists involved in the game and not to mention the game itself is a ton of fun. If people get a chance they should definitely try it!
11:50 These companies are incompetant beyond recognition. There was ALREADY a court case that had the loss go like this. 'IF the definition of what AI was used for fits a JOB and NOT a TOOL?' NOT protected by Copyrights AND IS FAIR USE.
The issue with the idea of jobs being lost to new tools and technologies is that is something that is the aim with labor not with art. The pursuit to create art is a cultural pursuit. It's something done to express thoughts and emotions. Art is transcendent of its physical form and can express things that cannot be expressed otherwise. The pursuit to eliminate mundane labor has always been in service to the pursuit of the arts. A program taking away the jobs of career artists is genuinely soulless immoral and antithetical to human culture on a vast scale. It only is a benefit for those seeking profits and power it is genuinely and undeniably immoral to anyone who's ever genuinely created an artistic work that meant something or any who have dedicated study to anthropology, history, and philosophy.
AI cannot create art. It creates visual products and eliminates actual art. Art is expression and culture and a program cannot create that it can only replicate it without any of the heart.
Thanks for following up on this…
There is no "WOTC", only Hasbro. Of course Hasbro lied. At the same time, the "promise" was so carefully worded that it was meaningless. Anyone who took that at face value was deluding themselves.
I like this response a lot. You are so right, there is no WOTC, only Hasbro.
That's... Not how conglomerates work. Say you don't understand how corporations work without saying it.
Secret Lair is the lesson shouted from the rooftops that the Magic scene is not just competitive vs. casual on the dimension of gameplay. There are many of us who buy product for neither, in other words, we are not “casual” about art or the great artists we admire. The company cannot come off the heels of working with Junji Ito, Brandon Sanderson, etc. only to handshake out of the challenge of creative endeavor.
Here's a novel thought: WotC could use AI to playtest old and new cards within all the different formats. AI playing games with itself can be done, and it could run hundreds of thousands of games in parallel, optimize its decks, and iterate on that until the end of times. This way, an AI could predict if a new card is likely to be banned, allowing it to be tweaked long before it is spoiled. It could also find new combos and synergies, and who knows what else. Art and AI is a terrible combination, but Magic is a combinatorial game where AI can shine and that's not even in the conversation, from what I have seen so far.
But here's the interesting bit: One day, some random dude somewhere is gonna do just that, and they're gonna be way ahead of the rest of the MtG playerbase.
This could also be used for matchmaking algorithms, for example. AI doesn’t necessarily mean art
I think you missed the part where generating 2D and 3D assets is included
Betteridge's law of headlines in motion here.
Incredible video Vince, thanks kindly for bringing this more awareness and for your 2 cents!
Breaking promises when we don’t want them to, and not breaking promises when we do. What will they think of next?
This is going to come full circle with artists making ai art thats actually non- ai art.
I'm not gonna lie I kinda adore I have a place to see stuff about mtg that isn't filled with chud takes and oh my god they made Aragon black the world is gonna end, type of stuff, not only that you're pretty left wing idk if you're a comrade or not but it's super refreshing and I love your channel
A.I. art accidently convinced me that the human soul exists. I can see where it is absent in generated art.
Yes, next question
While a lot of the AI discussion is around art, I feel worried for R&D. AI in game design will also lead to both great people loosing jobs and just bad mechanics. With the level of product being pumped out I can see how AI would be a very tempting to increase and streamline MTG game design processes. I don’t see how this isn’t an issue also in the same way art rendering would be. A huge amount of magic’s value has been built on R&Ds ingenuity too.
If new technology reduces the work that needs to be done it should mean we all work less hours not half of us starve and die and half of us scramble to work 12 hour days to afford to live.
Also i hope that everyone of artistic integrity leaves wizards and makes a spuritual successor to mtg
An AI tool that makes sense is generative architecture tools. You shouldn’t need to pay a human to make carparks if you can make an excellent tool to generate single and multi-story carparks. We are talking about landscaping, EV, handicap, general purpose spots, human safety, stairs/lifts, utilities, etc.
Should there be a few basic prompts, the planner shouldn’t have to make these mundane decisions. However let’s have humans design human spaces (ie gardens/parks, homes, community centres, commercial spaces that feel personal than impersonal).
Maybe AI will develop this far to fully replace humans advocating for humans. Hopefully this never really comes to past. Cause I doubt AI spaces will make sense, especially when the complexity is taken into account fully.
Hopefully soon we can build legislation around these terms. Looking to protect human creativity first and foremost.
that is why they want to have big tournaments on Arena... they don't have to worry about judges then
an english speaking youtuber able to pronounce Magali Villeneuve's name right. Stunning
you think that wizards is throwing out that ai stuff and then looks how people reacts to see if they could get away with using it for mtg and dnd? or in other words if people don't aggressively scream at them every time they put an i after an a will they go through with it
Yeah. Thats the conclusion I came to in the video too.
The problem isn't the AI Art, it's the greedy people that choose to use it over paying talented professionals. Obviously for people with limited resources I understand this is difficult but it can't be ok for some and not for others. As always the best way to protest is with your wallet.
Why wouldn't they? Nobody noticed the art on Phelia.
We really should remember to give credit to WotC and similar companies that actually don't use generative AI to create art.
I mean, it will be used more and more and more. That is inevitable.
Gotta love the channel I haven't watched the video yet I hope anyone who may read this has a good day
Art is an abstraction or expression of meaning. Meant to convey emotion. An artist that goes through a sad experience and writes a song about it connects with people.
What does that mean when a machine one does that? How disingenuous would it be for a a person to write a story about struggles he never went through just to make money. That’s the future. Companies using AI to make art that is meant to be consumed only. No real meaning behind it. No real expression. And the worst part is the art will be good enough that you can’t tell. AI generated stories about war hero’s, or slavery, or famine with no one to actually tell the story. Companies would absolutely lie about that if they could get away with it. And they will.
really wild how often they try to sneak any amount of ai into the games, then everyone tells WOTC the promised then they try in a month. But its's also really weird because they have made a promise to players before in the form of the reserve list and they hold tight to the letter of the the promise as if it was an oath made under the threat of death.
@13:40 like with a baby, when they do something right no matter how small, if your trying to reinforce those good behaviors you say good job.
Companies... lying .... to customers 🤯
Generally it is correct to assume that yes, WotC did lie as their corporate overlords see AI as a cost-savings that they will latch onto and never let go, the second they think they can get away with it.
when it comes to companies breaking their word or anything that involves exploitation, I am immediately reminded of the rules of acquisition.
I miss Teresse Nielsen's artwork
The fact that even art has been commoditized is a disgrace. Creatives have been shit on, scorned, exploited, and more, and executives and tech bros have the deepest contempt for artists, so getting rid of them, even by having a neural net plagiarize their fucking creations, is their dream.
If they have it their way, in 10 years there will be thousands of videos asking "why do movies/comics/shows suck now?" Haha, I'm kidding, youtube would be saturated by AI and AI alone.
It’s like the animators being run ragged to create a mediocre marvel movie. Whats even the point?
I can't believe Wizards lied about something!
Did you even watch the video? 🤣
It's also scary because the more AI art that gets used, the more AI art there is for the AI algorithm to look at to "learn" more. Basically, people are using AI art but not being truthful so the AI models will use their own arts to train, and the more AI art used, the higher the reverberation effect will be. I think the AI will get a little better in the near future, and then I predict it will get much worse because it will self reference and lose the uniqueness in each image.
The adobe photoshop generative ai seems to be more ethical, as from what I've heard, the generative ai only takes from Adobe Stock, and only pictures that have had a box ticked to confirm it is allowed to be used for Generative AI
The adobe AI itself has been trained on AI generated images made from other datasets. Adobe Stock has a bunch of untagged AI images it has trained on.
@@Voyajer. Generative AI not feed into each other challenge imposible
7:04 "ai" is just takeing the avrage of everything before it cannot innovate
$25 and a year of "Don't do it again" ? Seems insultingly low.
@1:20 Sure that very particular job was not for D&D and Magic. But the next roles they hire will be (1 to 10 year timeline). Unless WotC can come out and give a markBottomWater guarantee about hiring human artists and refusal to use AI stolen art.
Soooo the crowd overreacted, everyone made money on the reaction videos, and we can go back to business as usual. Another day on youtube.
Oh look, the rational cynic, being all rational and cynical. Powerful stuff.
@@PleasantKenobi hey dude I engaged and updooted and everything, sometimes I don't think it was worth the time. Is that ok to share back or is this only one way?
The abuse that workers suffered during the Industrial Revolution drove the need for worker and work place protections. I view the current Technological Revolution in a similar way. Workers need protections. Especially since there are little if no safety nets for people who lose their jobs in a society that requires people to have a job to survive.
I got AI lung and lost a finger to DALL-E.
AI can make a decent assistant to a worker doing the actual work, but work by an AI that hasn’t at minimum been collated/refined by a human person is soulless entirely, imo.
Of course they're going to break their promise. They're a very growth challenged business gasping quarter to quarter. Unless a 'promise' is made in some kind of legal finding it's not even worth the pixels it's printed with.
Butlerian Jihad when?
Is it just me or did the kickstarter end in March?
Nope.
The link sends you to a kickstarter that ended in March. Is there a different one? Really want to support them.
Kickstarter? I hardly know her.
They did (break their promise.) for their extended borders collector commander decks. The eldrazi ones aren’t going to have extended borders, even though it’s on their website.
(But they were able to do one extended border eldrazi…in a commander collectors pack.)
I will start by saying that I don't agree that this is right. I think it's terrible and completely unfair..... but in 10 years AI art will be the norm. No amount of public outcry will change that. I am not saying we shouldn't try to be heard. I'm not saying we should just give up and say, "well it's inevitable so might as well just go along with it". But it IS inevitable. Corporations must keep profits growing. There are 2 ways to do that. More customers or higher profit margins. More and more companies are turning to the 2nd option. It will start with a small compromise (well they're only using it for computer games) then it will only be in advertisements, not in the real game, then they'll release a set that's an AI tribute to all the great magic artists that came before. Hell, they'll even pay the artists full rate to let AI interpret their work.... and we'll all wake up in a decade, maybe 2, and everything will be AI. I'm not condoning it. I'm not for it. I think it's a subtle but powerful evil that is going to cost the livelihood of amazing creators. I also think it's going to happen one little compromise at a time.
WOTC would never lie to us or break a promise, except like they do, almost daily, and have been for at least the last five years.
Something these companies need to understand when they pursue efficiency and increasing profit margins, is that, if their customers don't have jobs or money, they don't have customers. Capitalism can only thrive with a healthy workforce and middle class. If we lose those things, the system will fail.
Remember, they aren't jacking up the cost, we are becoming price sensitive. It's our fault. We made them do it. Wont someone think of the filthy rich shareholders. How will they be able to buy their fourth home if they can't fire everyone and replace them with AI?
AI is digital automation for the creative process; once it's "good enough", any and all companies looking to save a dime (read as all) will switch to a server room, bill and ted to create their new "art".
That's the problem; even now, humans can produce an infinitecimal amount of what the machines can while running themselves (unsustainably) ragged. And the more s*** the machine standard, the less work the few hunans left have to; thus, a downward spiral ensues.
A tool is not comparable to it's user no matter how "smart" it gets; that won't stop the system from gutting artistry to a "cute" hobby in the face of their efficiency engines in the long run- more than likely.
THEY'RE GOING TO PUT AI ART ON THE CARDS!!!!!!!!!!
AI generating art is not something I think they should do. Using it to RECOGNIZE AI use in the art they commission would be fine.
But where I've been a proponent of Wizards using AI/machine learning for a LONG time, is play testing. If you look at machine learning/AI in chess software, they're vastly superior to humans and can play an insane number of games in a very short amount of time. That would allow play testers to see if, for example, the Companion mechanic would be broken and if all of the cards or just some of them would need to be banned or the mechanic adjusted. They might not have had to have a day 0 Lutri, the Spellchaser ban.
Using AI/Machine learning as a tool to improve and polish the cards would be fine.
I’m pretty sure it’s been determined that, at least at this moment in time, AI is not capable of simulating games of magic. It’s not like chess where there’s a set board and set pieces that only move in specific ways. Would be interesting to learn more as to why, im just speaking from what ive heard from some game designers.
I have been playing with proxies for years, I recommend other people start playing with them as well.
WotC doesnt deserve your support.
Really cool to hear your thoughts on this stuff. I very much agree. I think its arguable that AI art isn't really art at all without the element of effort and personal perspective.
AI art struggles with all of those things because it has absolutely no comprehension of what they are. the best highlight of this is that an AI for the game Go beat the best player in the world. that same AI can now be beaten by a novice with a strategy most real people wouldn’t lose too because they understand the game
For the record: I think AI art is fine, but only insofar as it being a legitimate tool for artists to use to make Art - not the end-all-be-all of the process.
Your reference to Photoshop autofill tool is a good example, but I'm more thinking *beyond* even that step: making actual commentary by creating something a human would never be able to do by hand.
To use an example in another discipline: Immortal Ad Vitam uses CGI in an interesting way - the film only select characters be in live action while the others are entirely (bad) CGI. The live action characters are "pure" and free of genetic modification while the CGI people are all highly modified cyberpunky monstrosities. By leaning into CGI's limitations, the film make artistic social commentary on what it means to be human.
In the same way, I think there is a place for AI art as some sort of capital A 'Art' that makes commentary on the nature of collective perception, or something of that nature.
If Wizards is just hiring this position to do something like that? I think that's neat!
If they're just hiring that position because it's cheaper than hiring artists/writers/designers/etc? Well, my pitchfork is at the ready
Its gonna happen you can try and delay it but it is inevitable. Its likely already ai art in some of the cards but the artists themselves using it and lieing about it.
So if Wotc starts using AI they won't need to hire as many game designers and commission as many artists so Magic cards will be much cheaper to make. Surely this will correlate with a massive rice reduction, right? Surely Wotc wouldn't use something like this to further increase their profit margins.
I have 12,000 points of Imperium, 6,000 points of Orks and 2800 points of Chaos Space Marines.
I was angry about the fenstodes, because of the gaslighting, telling us nothing has changed is why we are boycotting GW products for a while. Has nothing to do with mUh WoOmUn. Like what you said about AI for the most part. I will add it is extremely helpful for making worldbuilding for my D&D world, a picture is worth a thousand words after all
You need to be careful when listening to idiots talk about Warhammer as a cultural battleground and a grift.
There was no gaslighting.
In the same way that when Horus was changed from just some general to a Primarch, or when the Rogal Dorn Battle Tabk was introduced, or Centurions, or the Beast Snagga Boys, or the Drukari, or Guiliman not being a literal pile of bones - all of these things are retroactively changed to "have always been" as opposed to some deep universe changing event.
It's very normal. Super normal.
People need to chill out. They read the word 'AI' and lose their shit. AI is used in development all the time - to create automated tests, on copilot apps, etc. It's not even necessarily about media - they may just want to implement AI into a game development pipeline.
The trouble with the female custodes was the implementation was lazy, no reason why you cant have women space marines or women custodes, but to just say "oh btw they always were" proves its nothing but a marketing exercise and that's perfectly fine to criticise.
Why didn't GW do something like find a ship coming out of the warp being a lost chapter of female marines and RG try to find out why but then have to divert to fight big bad and never know.
They didn't they just said "btw they are women now" which is lazy and stupid.
Does it matter? no not really but it doesnt make it beyond mockery
What is going to replace AI after the bubble bursts?
HASBRO lied to up, and forced WotC to do the same.
I like to think AI generated pictures have difficulty with fingers because of the photos of twisted Eldrazi figures in it's "training."
Art isn't perfect, art needs human failure to be called perfect.
Wat lol
@@kphaxxsorry you no am good undrstan
Basically, Baldur's Gate 4 will be AI Schlop that will sully the legacy left from Larian Studio's Masterwork.
AI is learning like a human artist, but it's dumb. It doesn't know anything other than making art, or whatever it's trained on, and the inferences it made about those things it does know could be wrong. It's just using a computer to automate a task a person can do like a really really long macro. And yeah, if we had a UBI funded by an automation tax, it would just be ugly art.
No amount of AI art is gonna impress me like John Avon, Steve Belledin, or Magali V.
So tbh, I encourage Wotc to try and match their talent with AI. Aint gonna ever happen and the greats will continue to thrive
Pretty much every time daddy #WotC opens their mouth, I figure half is a lie. In all fairness, they clearly said yes they would peruse AI.
Art is a concept. It is irreplaceable. Ai creates digital renderings, for purposes of efficiency and convenience. There is nothing wrong with that. Using AI art for magic cards would be an awful idea, because art on magic cards represents much more than the game ever could without it. Ai is a fine tool for businesses to adapt, but pretending that it is art is kind of blasphemy. Although my arguments hold much less merit now in a world of capitalism, Universes beyond, and product fatigue, so at this point I can hardly view this game as an artistic direction any more, but I still will hold on hope, because magic is an awesome game and I believe its resilience will outlive everything happening
between this, MH3 prices and Saffron Olive defending that it's ok to replace artists and game designers with generative ai i've had enough of wotc and the community. Put my collection up for sale minus the dr who decks
technology replacing people in various jobs is just natural way of progress. but art should be the area that's done by human. cause art is about human expression, not making content for the sake of making content.
if WotC start using AI artwork i wont touch those cards no matter how power crept they be
I wish “slop” AI would be set aside from AI in general. People are judging this book by the cover way too fast. Yes GENERATIVE AI should not be used to ruin the legacy of artists and lore writers of Magic the Gathering, but AI itself can further this game we love. Wizards have screwed up (looking at you stickers) and we have gotten mad. What difference does it make if an AI model does it? A correctly created AI model will actually learn rather than a biased human mind. Our thoughts and opinions could be trained and implemented into future card sets. There needs to be a barrier created somewhere so that AI as a whole is not looked down upon by the common consumer.
What are you on about? This is a nightmare future that would destroy the game. Its also not possible. You'd essentially ask chat gpt to "make a new magic set"- it would return slop, or at best, a jumble of old sets. "AI" isn't a magic wand and it definitely isnt artificial intelligence. It's an algorithm that looks at a a dataset and contructs a frakenstein out of that data. It is by it's own nature incapable of genuine creation or "learning".
"Even though AI learn by aggregating all the art theyve seen like humans do, they are not the same. No, I will not explain or elaborate."
People like to imagine that there is some artistic sanctity to the human element, which I think is nonsense and obviously arguable. For example, the only people who know the Mona Lisa was painted by human hands are the people who watched it with their own two eyes. To everyone else its something were just told, all of the art in all of these museums could have been painted by robots or even just a convenient accident of the way the paint splattered and if you werent told specifically you wouldnt know. Art is almost purely subjective and as long as it makes you feel something there is a credible argument that it has artistic merit.
this techno bro lost 8000 dollars in nfts
Oh also he says ai art is 1 for 1 copying, which is like...laughably wrong. If an ai was only capable of replicating things it had already seen it would defeat the entire purpose of training an ai. It just takes like a minute of thinking through.
@@joplin4434cope and seethe and never provide an argument
I elaborated pretty indepth. If you don't want to listen, I'm not sure what I can do to help you.
Maybe they will invent an AI that will help you with this issue of laziness and inherent bias - and then you can feel superior whilst saying with your whole chest "humanity doesn't matter to art".
Laughable stuff.
@@PleasantKenobi you did not. You just said they were thousands of steps removed without explaining why. And followed it up with a laughable lie that ai reproduces 1 for 1. Just because you don't understand art OR the technology doesn't mean you get to spread misinformation.
Also pot calling the kettle black because acting superior to everyone else is like half of your shtick so idk where you get off lmao.
think its getting close to time people stop pretending to care about artists, you dont care, you never have and probably never will. the average magic play will play the game have fun and not once think about the artist "who in this day in age use AI in every single program they use to make the art" the amount of players who actively search out artists, get signatures and support the game artists by buying prints would be considered a rounding error in terms of the overall playerbase.
You can care without doing those things. You lack a normal range of empathy if you cannot care without monetarily supporting something.
@@TubbyBubbleLove42 we have a term for that its called grifting.
Keep using AI art to screw over creatives. Creatives are no better and are no more deserving of special circumstances than me, a retail worker
lol so “I am getting screwed over by the corporate drive for profits and the soulless business machine, but that’s ok as long as others are too.”
The issue is you are believing WoTC at face value. They say this is for video game development but why di you believe them? They have lied to our faces time and time again. I dont understand why they are getting the benefit of the doubt here? They clearly don’t deserve it.
This is one of those moments that when it becomes obvious WoTC has been using AI art in cards we will all point to this person as the reason it started.
Just a matter of time since we as a community never hold WoTC’s feet to the fire. 🤷🏻♂️
I hope wizards moves to using AI even more
Your so edgy.
From the job description: "Design and develop libraries for teams to easily consume and deploy AI tools and enhancements."
Sounds like an ethical use would be to put the oracle text into it so that they could create cards with standard language/templating easier for newly created cards.
Good luck with that. Have you ever tried to train an AI to do precise work reliably? It's a nightmare.
Seriously it's just way easier to program it manually. Hell, if you use any kind of AI it won't be of the generative type. It would probably be similar to a phone's text prediction or spell check. You don't need high level AI for that.
I can tolerate Universes Beyond, I can tolerate more and more Collectors editions and chase cards and power creep.
I cannot tolerate using AI for Magic cards. Not only does it devalue real artists and their contributions to make Magic as big as it is, but it also gives the consumer a much worse product all so the company can save money. It will not fix any issues you can think Magic has, it will only make things worse.