Why Super Saiyan 4 Vs God Isn't Close...
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
- Super Saiyan 4 Vs Super Saiyan God has been a hotly debated topic ever since the Battle of Gods movie was released over ten years ago! I thought it was finally time to answer the question truthfully, and put a halt to the Super Saiyan 4 Downplay!
video intro, outro, and thumbnail by Toxic: / the_homie_toxic
Twitter: / _minuteman_
Discord: / discord
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
1:06 Why God Beats Super Saiyan 4 explained
2:46 Dragon Ball Z Upscaled
5:17 Super Saiyan 4 is Multiversal
6:37 Super Saiyan 4 Vs Vegetto
14:42 Super Saiyan 4 Vs Super Saiyan God Forms
15:30 Base Goku Vs Base Goku
19:01 Who is faster? 
Развлечения
So by far the most contentious point of the video is when I said Kid Boo > Boohan.
Keep in mind that this is such a minor point that it really doesn't even effect the argument as a whole.
My next Dragon Ball Video will be Kid Boo Vs Boohan to explain why Kid Boo is stronger in the anime.
They both have similar feats, it’s just that people like to deny stuff if it doesn’t make much sense at face value.
You yapped for way to long on this you contradicted yourself way too much and didn’t even make a single valid or good point
Kid buu stronger then Buuhan is wild!!
@@KonEl17 yeah the anime scaling for Z is wild
Saying goku became as strong as vegeto with almost no time at all is like saying goten and trunks in ssj are as strong as super buu together without fussing after the first fusion, which isn't the case
Completely unrelated to scaling, but I would have preferred SSB not exist at all or have a much later introduction. SSG wasn’t allowed to be a form used seriously after Battle of Gods, and that’s a shame for such a unique transformation.
I agree. I would never object to Blue existing, but I see why this should be the case! If I had to 'reintroduce' Blue, I'd maybe set it up for the Goku Black Saga. As a way to prove to Zamasu that both divinity and Saiyan potential can mix and that the divine power that Goku and Vegeta have truly belong to them.
@@SoraDonaldGoofy99 it definitely makes sense in the Goku Black arc, as both Goku and Vegeta experience intense anger during the fights and could realistically find a fusion of SSG and Super Saiyan.
Honestly, I've always felt like Blue should be SSJG but if a Saiyan trained for god ki, while red SSJG can only be achieved through the ritual, and Rose is from a Saiyan Kai.
They could all have their own evolutions like ultra instinct being the evolution of SSJG’s calm nature, while ego would be the evolution of rage so blue evolves into purple, and Rose could just evolve like SSJ. Like in SDBH.
@@ginnungagapabyss5639 Never thought of it that way to be fair.
I've always never liked Super Saiyan Blue, I always preferred Super Saiyan God because it felt like a more unique transformation and expanded on the lore of the Saiyans. Blue being just Super Saiyan stacked on top of God just is a meh concept.
I like how the community needs to discover things over years because almost no one watches DB in the DB community. Many things in the series where literally spoon fed to you, but the fandom ignores or doesn't know about it.
Super saiyan 4 is cool, but gets one shot
end of story
@@LavaCreeperPeople
First off, this post is about the community. Not this specific match up.
Secondly, you didn't not watch the video. You can come to whatever conclusion you want. But make sure you are informed on what you talk about or you're gonna get laughed at, again.
Cause I already laughed.
@@menacingpotatoleafthis only makes sense if we just take the anime power scale since there for some reason goku and vegeta are stronger than gotenks and gohan, and kid buu is stronger than buuhan (stupid since he doesn't have anything absorbed), if we talk about manga then anything this talks about doesn't make an ounce of sense (as well as everything in the GT anime)
You don’t understand how happy this comment made me 😂Stuff in Super is explained well in manga and anime but people refuse to pay attention. Ppl Hate SSB but I continue to tell them Blue functionality wise is the best form outside of UI and UE.
the series is about telling a story for kids in japan, but then morons got to "power scaling" which not even the writers give a single fuck about. Thank you Stan Lee.
I just realized that the reason why Buuhan got so powerful when angry was because he was using Gohan's rage boost attribute! 😱😱😱😱😱
Then buuhan said “he won, I lost😢”
inaccessible speed can still be topped best example whis😂
Nope he wasnt angry lol😂
He was confident for the win but lost
What? EVERY character in dragon ball gets stronger when they are angry. Vegeta tells the same thing to Cabba and Broly. So what makes you think its Gohan's boost that made buuhan so strong?
Stopped the video when he said that kid buu is stronger than buuhan.
Dude is an idiot
yea this guy is a moron when clearly in actual manga its directly stated that Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu.
Totally false! 😮
I stopped the video once he said SS3 Vegetto lol... Vegito never transformed into SSJ3
I stopped then too, sorry I wasted time up to that point. I tried to explain to the guy who posted but he’s a total dope…
Kid buu is definitely not stronger than buu han. It’s just he had no conscious and was out of control destroying planets without caring. That’s why they considered him more of a danger
Goku outright stated kid buu is strongest one and simply different level compare to other buus and heavily underestimated.
@om9959 kid Buu is buuhan without anyone absorbed, and when Buu absorbs people he gets stronger, and Buu absorbed piccolo, Gotenks, Gohan, etc. making him so much more powerful than kid Buu, kid Buu is the most DESTRUCTIVE because of his primitive nature, not the strongest
@@om9959 think about it, Goku fought kid buu with ssj3 and were even in power but goku lacked stamina to keep his ssj3 form. When he got revived by the old Kai and used instant transmission to get to earth with the Potara he was about to get killed straight away by buu han even as ssj3 and with Vegeta with him. I don’t know this is even a discussion… Coming from someone who’s watched the dragon ball series at least 10 times over since the 90’s I can tell you that you are completely wrong
Kid buu is stronger than fat buu
So clearly he can get weaker when he absorbs good hearted beings like the supreme Kai that turned him into fat buu
@goku_black0667 Goku literally says Kid Buu is the strongest, he didn't say anything about destructive, your headcanon doesn't matter
Nope. Saying Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan is ridiculous. You just de-railed your entire argument right there.
exactly, it can be argued that is the most dangerous of them since he is pure evil and doesn't flinch before destroying planets but Kid Buu is not the stronger Buu, much less stronger than Buuhan
Yes this is true, Buuhan was way stronger than Kid Buu.
@@jasontoddler7680goku dosent even thought about fighting buuhan one on one
Facts
Db fans dont watch their own show
buu saga was crazy no one questioned how gotenks literally cutting space and a portal make to a different dimension 😂😂
your grammar is so rough it could severely injure ssj4 goku
It's why Vegeta uses the Hyperbolic Time Chamber willy nilly now, there's no limit to using it if the door is never a concern.
I let the guy cook hoping that he'd convice me that ssj4>ssjg but the second he said "kid buu is stronger than buuhan" I stopped the video.
You don't know ball
@@Br0ku believe me I smoked it
@@Br0kuSo is Kid Buu being stronger a retcon? The whole reason Goku and Vegeta decided to fight Buu 1-on-1 was because he was weaker than what he was fused.
@@grifgaming436 that isn’t the whole reason. They fought 1 on 1 because of saiyan pride. Toriyama even stated this.
@@Br0kuYeah you right. I just double checked
"Back in the Day people used to say The top tiers were multi solar system level"
Unfortunately ive run into individuals who say Current goku is Solar system level.
Ikr and they use it to justify why their fav characters can beat Goku lol
Something I forgot to mention:
For the people who don't like the databook statement implying SSJ4 > SSJG...
In the Heroes series, SSJ4 is consistently portrayed to be a higher multiplier than SSJG. On multiple occasions we've seen Xeno Goku fight CC Goku. They were both comparable power in their base forms. When Xeno Goku went SSJ4, he was still comparable to the CC Goku who went Super Saiyan Blue. This would mean that SSJ4 is at least almost as strong as Blue, thus making it far stronger than God. Now, the scaling in Heroes wouldn't apply to GT or Super. But the multipliers of the forms should still hold because it is based on GT and Super.
Technically, these characters are Low-Multiversal, not Multiversal. These are just the terms generally used by fandom.
Boohan's feat is Multiversal. It did say it was going to destroy the living universe by destroying the space that separated the different universes of the macrocosm. Destroying a space that stops multiple universes from colliding into each other is multiversal.
Ok
But isn't it the consequence of destroying "that" space? Like, he isn't destroying the whole macrocosm neither with a direct blor or wave like ssjg and neither one by one by one blow whitch is considered a Multiversal feat but universal.
Gt goku is outer
@@luisfernan-s7731 1. There is a space that separates all of the universe within the DB macrocosm.
2. If that space is destroyed, the other universes will collapse into eachother.
3. That means the space barrier is multiversal in power as it stops the universes from collapsing into eachother.
4. Boohan had the power to destroy that barrier.
5. Boohan is Multiversal (low-multiversal but meh)
@@Br0kuohhhh now I get, got you 👍
Something to note is also that SSJG does have a healing factor
only the ritual SSG has a healing factor. Consider that SSB is basically SSG x50. So shouldn't SSB also have the same factor? Well, it doesn't, and if it really does, SSG Goku in TOP DID NOT heal from his injuries (can be scratches or whatever).. And SS4 has the haxs of tanking techniques that you know about so Goku vs Goku who can PERFECTLY counter Goku. It's still not close. Also rmb how Kid Buu who has a significantly faster regen speed than Ritual God Goku got mangled by a weaker spirit bomb (in comparison to Jiren Bomb and Universal Bomb). So even if he had the healing factor, it does not matter anyways..
@@takerusueyoshi6576It wasn't a weaker spirit bomb. The Spirit Bomb against kid Buu used all of the universe energy, simply he could only forcibly take a small portion without the people's consent, that is why he asked for the humans and namekkians consent because as one of the few sentient race and some of the strongest they would boost him more that a tiny bit of energy from any non sentient living being on the universe.
The spirit bomb is also techinque made to cleanse evil. Litterally in the fight vs Vegeta it was explained how a good person could repel it. So kid buu's struggle was simply because he was THE Evil, litterally evil incarnated, so it was the strongest technique in existence against kid buu. Ironically it would have been less effective against fat buu and superbuhan because they had a good side in them.
Jiren being able to repel it is simply a clever way to show the viewers that he wasn't as evil as people initially tought. In fact while his desire was a little selfish you could easily argue that he was more good then Goku who started the whole tournament (that endangered all sentient life) simply for fun.
where do you guys pull this shit out of your ass?
ssj4 has a healing factor AND an adaption hack
@@takerusueyoshi6576having a slight healing factor doesnt mean he still doesnt take damage. it can be overcome by stronger fighters
15:24 I'd say it more implies that SSJG isn't necessarily a Super Saiyan type form unlike SSJ4, which is even named as a direct continuation of the main line of transformations. But rather as the design, and the entire movie hints at, it instead being a secondary god-Ki powered base form.
Kinda like it's the saiyan race's ascending from mortality to divinity
Where as super saiyan is an evolution of the saiyan race to overcome a lack of strength in dire situations
Tho im not sure about this
Yea it is not a form, but simply a saiyan with divine power.
The god forms aren’t like the primal super saiyan forms so I’m assuming neither was considered a form of super saiyan as neither blue or god is an evolution of the original super saiyan form
i don't quite agree with base goku surviving omega shenron being power-based given how everything surrounding goku's departure and mandated use of the spirit bomb was the only way to beat omega at that point
he failed to mention in the vid that Change goku has gojo barrier x10. the daizenshu says it doesnt allow any attack to reach him
The crazy thing is that with SSJG's introduction it became cannonical that the team had a VERY easy way to deal with Super 17 and Omega Shenron that went right under their noses... the funniest part being that they were REALLY close to accidentally unlocking this power during the fight with Omega Shenron when Goku was down for the count.
It's just SSG, there is no J
@@TheRealCatofthe “j” in “ssjg” comes from the Japanese pronunciation of super saiyan, which is “super saiyajin”. It’s why sometimes you’ll see people type “ssj2” instead of just ss2 and so on
@@TheRealCatoffilthy dub watcher located
@@demontiming3234 Yes, but SSJ was never used Canonically, even in Japanese. But officially, Super Saiyan God are called SSG and SSGSS.
Which means the correct abbreviation for Super Saiyan is SS
@@TheRealCatof SSJ is more common and unambiguous, we will maintain the standards we have used for decades.
A lot of these are good arguments but can also come down to interpretation for example the SSJ4 being the ultimate form of Super Saiyan making it a better form than God you could interpret it to be the ultimate form based on just super saiyan instead of super saiyan infused with God Ki as technically Super saiyan Blue is ssj infused with god ki with normal ssg being a form that channels the God Ki rather than it being a traditional super saiyan form like 4 it’s really up to how you perceive it
Good points
Buuhan is obviously the strongest version of Buu, I think most people should know that
Kid Buu: casual wipes out planets
Buuhan: can’t beat a piece of candy
@@charlesman8722 that piece of candy can destroy kid buu easily
@@charlesman8722buu Han almost collapses multiple realties onto themselves by yelling really loud he wipes kid buu
Kid Buu is weaker than Buuhan. Kid Buu was stated to be the most "dangerous" version of Buu but this was later clarified as unpredictable not strongest. Buuhan is the strongest version of Buu.
@@charlesxavier677 Exactly my point
*Personally* i disagree hard with the idea that SSJ4 is stronger than SSG, since i doubt a lot of the evidence, and i believe that SSG is a much better form
However im not a toxic super fan so I'm cool with your logic and take, you always make great videos so it was expected!
You should watch divine or kazi scaling on ssj4
@@BIGHOODPETA Haven't heard of them before, I'll probably check it out later
Thank youuu
But end of gt goku got 100 years of hard core training with gods
@buster3041 That I agree with, end of GT goku is way beyond any other goku (Except maybe CC)
But this is just SSJ4 vs SG
@@frosty5424lol I'm sorry but did you just compare CC Goku to end of GT dragon god Goku? Seriously? CC Vegito was completed dominated by xeno Vegito when they fought Cumber
On the Vegetto statement in the GT Perfect Files, I think it’s stating that the Potara multiplier is above SSJ4, not necessarily that Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Goku. And if it did mean that, at most it would be Baby Arc SSJ4 Goku, not Shadow Dragon Arc. Also with Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku being relative to Vegetto, their statements come after Vegetto no longer existed, so it’s a little hard to bring him into the equation. But I do put them both above Buuhan. I’m a V-Jump scan from 2018, It stated that Buuhan gained a power on par with SSJ3 Goku. One more note, exerting more power doesn’t mean you were going full power.
Goku and kid buu are not relative to vegito at all
You’re right, because they’re stronger
The scaling is there. You don’t have to agree with it, but it’s there.
At least we can all agree that SSJ3 Goku is way stronger than Ultimate Gohan.
@@jschannel6319 any statement about kid buu being the strongest refers to BASE buu’s,buuhan is a fusion not a normal buu,whenever goku is called the strongest it’s not taking about vegito or gogeta
Halfway through this video and Idc about the results much but I love your laying out of the fax. Big fan of the breakdowns.
Thanks for this video I like what you did . There’s more I could say but overall I enjoyed it and I’m glad you cleared that up
7:40 The problem with what you said here is the wording of what they say. Gt Goku isn’t saying “not even Vegito would be enough” he’s saying “This is the strongest ki I’ve ever felt” Goku never felt Vegito’s full ki but he most definitely would know his own full potential. That’s the difference between the two statements.
15:05: Super Saiyan God doesn’t get that same statement because it isn’t the ultimate Super Saiyan form of DBS. There is Super Saiyan Blue after that. Super Saiyan 4 however was the ultimate Super Saiyan form of GT. That’s why it’s stated like that. Why would we assume SS4 is stronger because of some flimsy wording in a single guide book
there is no problem here. I never said that Super Baby must scale above SSJ3 Vegetto because of this, just Super Vegetto.
Also, Goku isn't just saying that it's the strongest ki he's ever felt. He's affirming baby's statement of being the strongest saiyan ever.
@@Br0kuRight so what I’m saying is because Baby doesn’t scale to a hypothetical SS3 Vegito, GT Goku and Baby scale to a suppressed Vegito. God automatically scales above a hypothetical SS3 Vegito as Goku states that “not even fusion would be enough”. That includes all transformations. After God however, he believes he now has the power needed to take on Beerus.
I think you're misunderstanding my point. My point is that Super Vegetto went full power in Z. He just didn't go SSJ2 or SSJ3. People argue that Super Baby isn't even close to Super Vegetto, or they argue he's far weaker than base Vegetto. And that's hypocritical because in the boo saga, there is a time where Vegetto is surprised with his power so you can argue that IF Vegetto was holding back, Goku wouldn't even know what his full power was as Vegetto and thus God is only above a suppressed Vegetto. You can't have it both ways. Both SSJ4 and SSJG scale well above Super Vegetto. That's my point. I'm not saying that Super Baby automatically scales above SSJ3 Vegetto based on this argument. Basically it just means you cannot limit Super Baby to be weaker than Super Vegetto, let alone base Vegetto.
Also, your second claim is wrong because Super saiyan blue.In that databook, super saiyan blue wasn't a thing yet. So yes, it is implying SSJ4 > SSJG. @@PoxFilms
@@Br0ku"the final form of super saiyan" is correct because SSG is not quite a 'super saiyan', its base form using god ki (or absorbing, in the case of BoG)
The argument falls apart when we got Beerus knocked out Goku in SS3 with two small hits (he was like 0% serious), Goku becoming stronger in SSG but not "how much", and how serious got Beerus while fighting (because he's OP). In GT it explains in base Buu's powerlevel but super doesn't, and its even worse because (relatively) weak characters in DBZ become way stronger in Super (A17, Gohan) so we can't scale.
Not even frieza, because he also becomes stronger in his base form
@@Br0ku Is there any evidence supporting the idea of goku not knowing Vegito's full potential? It wouldn't be logical to think this way, so there must be some evidence backing it up.
Also buuhan scales way above kid buu, the whole stament of the ANIME was a mistranslation (it was said it was his most dangerous form, not powerful). And unless you think goku is stronger than ultimate gohan, as he was confident on being able to hold his own against kid buu but not buutenks, kid buu is NOT the strongest form. There's a whole discussion on this stuff, so i'm not gonna try and argue on it, just look it up.
Your whole argument falls apart with just the fact that buuhan scales way above kid buu.
Goku: Nah, I'd win
Kid Buu is scaled as the WEAKEST Buu... not the strongest.
He's just more dangerous since well... he's unpredictable. (Like when he just pops into existence and decides to blow up earth immediately)
Ex: Buuhan kicked SSJ3 Goku's ass with no issue but Kid Buu fought even with him.
Kid Buu is the most dangerous due to his lack of restraint and willingness to end the fight by blowing up the planet basically instantly.
Boohan was fighting SSJ1 Goku and Vegeta, not SSJ3 lol
@@Br0ku Correction. It wasn't buuhan. It was Buutenks.
ruclips.net/video/uYtXj6dfTs0/видео.html
Bro was getting his ass beat.
So, kid buu is STRONGER than I thought.
@@bluephoenixguy1094 and Goku got stronger
@@Br0ku Never disagreed that Goku got stronger... its just by how much and well...
I was just pointing out that by all metrics, Kid Buu is FAR weaker than Buuhan.
We KNOW that Buu gets stronger with each absorption. (The only exception being Fat Buu since it made him too stupid to use his power right, hence why he lost to Evil Buu.)
If we just assume it's additive (Buu's power + Who he absorbed's power)
We can at least scale Buuhan as ~3x SSJ3 Goku.
Super Buu is ~SSJ3 Goku. He's stronger than Fat Buu, but weaker than Gotenks... so even if he's weaker, it's not by too much, otherwise Gotenks would've instantly clapped him.
Gohan fought him even while having SSJ3 Gotenks absorbed, but stamina became an issue and lead to Gohan getting his ass handed to him.
Meaning, Buutenks is at least ~2x SSJ3 Goku, if not a bit stronger... and their fight reflects that Goku has no chance.
And Buuhan, even ignoring everyone else, was Super Buu + Gohan (who was 2x SSJ3 Goku in strength at least)
To say Kid Buu beats that is crazy or to think Goku got 3x stronger just because he fused with Vegeta... especially after training for 7 years to just catch up to where they're equal to Cell Saga Gohan in SSJ2...
That's what I disagree on. Goku got stronger, but to ignore that Buu GAINS strength from fusion and to think he's somehow MORE powerful when stripped of all of his fusions is off, to me.
It may not effect things too much, but you're going a bit far in Goku's favor here.
The ONLY thing Goku did between that fight with Buutenks and Kid Buu showing up was be with Fused with Vegeta.
By making Kid Buu so powerful, you basically break the scaling for literally everything else when the explanation is simple.
Kid Buu isn't the strongest Buu.
He's just the most dangerous Buu, just as the guide books described.
@@bluephoenixguy1094 I’m not ignoring that Boo gains strength from fusion. Goku as a SSJ1 low-Diffs Ultimate Gohan. Which adds proof that he got stronger.
I think you're lowballing the importance of God ki and it's still not erasing the feats in the Beerus fight.
God ki does not mean shit does not mean your going to always be superior than a normal ki user, Golden Frieza had the advantage over ssj blue goku, Android 17 was able to compete with Ssj blue Goku, I could go on and on. And GT has plenty of universal feats too as he stated here and some others he didn't mention, so Beerus fight doesn't indicate anything GT doesn't have. Plus GT Goku has 16 years of training and power development over Super Goku it's not even close to the point if you take both Goku's at the start of the series a ssj gt goku would easily overpower a ssj3 super goku. And with Ssj4 being stronger it's not even a fight between Ssj4 Goku and Ssj God Goku, not just that when you analyze the feats of both Goku's pre and post transformation it's easy to see Ssj4 is much stronger not just with that statement of Ssj4 being the Ultimate form and Ssj God not.
It depends on the context on what they be by universe if boo was gana destroy the universe that could mean the mortal universe and not the microcosm for ssg statement’s it heavily implies the microcosm due to the Kai realm was also going to be destroyed and the Kai realm existed outside of the microcosm which is also stated to be higher dimensional and transcendence of the microcosm which would also put ssg above ss4
The context for Boohan is that he destroyed the space that held the microcosm together and separated the universes causing them to rush forth. Destroying a space that holds off several universes is multiversal
@@Br0ku yes I agree it’s multi verse but not a 5D feat as the Kai realm transcends the microcosm stated in the data books
the Kai realm is included in that. @@igneellinde4123
@@Br0ku no the Kai realm exists out Side the microcosm so it wouldn’t be included unless shown or stated
The Kai realm is inside of the macrocosm this is shown in the multiple diagrams @@igneellinde4123
Omega Shenrons "over time" Universe destruction feat is HEAVILY downplayed, why? It's because Omega was *passively* destroying the Macrocosm as in he was holding back his power, if he really wanted to Omega could've powered up to 100% and his Negative energy would speed up by that much, INSTANTLY destroying the Macrocosm. Some will argue it still doesn't count cause its hax but Super fans forget that Hax in Dragon Ball are powered by Ki so Omega ALWAYS had enough power to destroy the Macrocosm in an instant!
literally.
What omega could've done if he powered up
@@SuperKamiGuruu
The physical clashes that increased in intensity the further away they got, sure
Prove it where does it states that. The corrosion is hax not power
@@mr.knightthedetective7435 they were gonna do it in third until goku canceled the explosion
A reminder that most of the people who've watched super have never watched DBZ. They aren't real dragon Ball fans.
A lot of z fans didn't even watch the original wither
I am happy someone out there does not understimate how ridiculously powerful characters got in GT! Nice vid man, good brrakdown
Super>>>>>>>>>>>>>GT (power wise, but quality wise as well)
@@SpiralSkylinesDefinitely not quality. Both are mid.
@@sinistralhydra I’m not a child, I don’t use such terms and don’t associate with anyone who does.
Tbf the power scaling of dragon ball doesn't really follow a logistical way especially after z (by logistical i mean in a way where they explain why x is stronger than y etc) the writers simply do not care for it and can state and change writings depending on what they want in the moment, so ssj4 will be stronger only when it's relevant to the story, cannon or not.
At some point when GT and super came out I got confused on power scaling
exactly. Toriyama himself ditched power levels, to focus less on numerically leveling characters up and just writing a story he found fun. The fans look into more than the creator himself.
holy shit! Broku!! I did not recognize you i'm an OG fan i remember you're most popular video "What if beerus woke up in GT" it was amazing and i miss youre videos
Yoooo! What’s good
It's a real shame that SS4 was left on the table and essentially replaced by SS God in the canon. SS4 is so much cooler and more interesting both in design and just as a concept imo. Before Super Saiyan transformations, the Saiyan race's most powerful form was the great ape form, but it also caused them to mostly lose themselves to blind rage. SS4 was a form that represented the raw primal power of the Saiyans' roots as a species, but in a refined, controlled form. It made perfect sense as the next step in their collective evolution. SS God is nowhere near as compelling to me
every super saiyan form represents their primal rage in a human form
Facts
Well I actually think there's an important thing to remember here:
All three of the major Saiyans in the series have found their own thing that's sort of replaced SSJ4 and it's not really God or Blue.
It's Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, and Beast.
Goku has never really been in touch with his Saiyan heritage except as a fighter. UI is the culmination of his mastery of martial arts and himself, two things only possible because he was on Earth.
Vegeta has always been a Saiyan 100%. He's the definition of a berserker and takes a beating constantly as a result. UE is him absolutely in his element, beyond the baser instincts of his heritage but still in touch with how he's always fought.
And Gohan's always been very much a human with Saiyan blood, but his Beast mode is something neither Super Saiyan nor Human: It's just Gohan. All that pent up power and aggression he has in combat, finally realized after decades of holding back.
And I think these three forms are MUCH more impactful than the Oozaru in terms of their actual character growth. SSJ4 definitely looks cooler, but these have more weight to them, imo.
@@fennecwolfoxI wouldn't call asspulls something with weight; but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion.
SSJ4 is some shit a second grader would think is cool, furry fanfic.
To say ssj4 is stronger than ssg because its stated to be the ultimate form would make ssj4 stronger than ssb by using the same logic
no because the databook came out before super saiyan blue. So it's not even close to the same logic.
@@Br0kuI think they refer to SSJ4 as the ultimate saiyan form because SSG and above that are forms given to saiyans with *GOD* Ki.
I still agree that SSJ4 is stronger, but you can't compare the godly forms since they require a special requirement, whereas you'd be able to get SSJ4 normally.
Can you make a Part 2 to What If Goku Went Super Saiyan 4 Against Jackie Chun?
Great vid, and I agree with you that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. I might use some of your sources for my own video later on!
You’re finally arguing the perspective I’ve noticed forever. Good job 👍
Db on the main channel now? I like it
1:40 when you realize Frieza jumped from what sun level+ to multiversal+ in 4 months
Frieza be neg diffing if he was actually a protag
sun lvl?
@@cloroxbleach3936he drugged himself while writing this comment
Frieza could destroy multiple suns inthe blink if a eye in base
@JasWinnin-gi2jb but like....which base
Good video my boy
Mental gymnastics fascinate me. Good episode!
Power scaling aside I still think SSJ4 is the coolest transformation, maybe in all of anime. It's certainly my favorite, both from a design perspective and a writing perspective. It felt like a natural evolution to the saiyans, bringing together elements of every form prior. The drastic change in personality from SSJ3 making Goku cold and calculated. The mastered nature similar to grade 4 and SSJ2. The bulking up like we see with grades 2 and 3. And of course, those Osaru elements. Regardless of whether or not it's stronger than god forms I don't really care. I love SSJ4 for more than just the power levels.
Them mentioning Galaxy in terms of omega is just to show how slow the negative energy would be. kais live for dozens of millions of years so shin wanting to dip was completely reasonable and doesnt take away from how Op omega was passively. He just loses to characters who can destroy everything with *punches*
You the goat man. BC and DBGT topics 🔥🔥🔥
Thank you !
Also, the afterlife is not just infinite in size, it's a trancedential realm that has surpassed the concepts of space and time. Traversing it could be argued for infinite speed or even more tbh
You mention briefly that Goku absorbed SSG levels of power into his base and called it a bad argument.
But it’s more of just a fact given the multiple instances shown of Gokus base post BOG being superior to his SSG power in BOG.
Such as when he fought Beerus as Monaka post u6-u7 tournament and made him excited where he couldn’t in BOG.
Fighting final form frieza in base
So take that multiversal level of power and stack a multiplier FAR higher than SSJ3.
There’s nothing to contradict this in the series or statements
whoah, what? I NEVER said that Goku absorbing SSJG into his base was a bad argument. NEVER. I clearly stated in the video that the bad argument was that SSJG was Multiversal and SSJ4 was not, and that Super Vegetto is stronger than SSJ4 Goku.
I mentioned Goku absorbing it because people claim that first saga Base Super Goku can solo GT. I never discredited the part about him absorbing SSJG into his base, he certainly did.
That God in base been retconned since he been scratched a regular bullet and bodied by a laser gun
@@Glenroy64that doesn’t mean it’s been retconned if goku isn’t using any ki when that happens
@@amadujalo8914 There’s so many things wrong with your statement and there’s many other things that prove that it’s been retconned
@@Glenroy64 what’s wrong with my statement
"Super 17 is stated to be the ultimate machine mutant" yeah and Burter is stated to be the fastest in the universe. Also even if that was true, they might not have meant power, just his ability to absorb ki.
Thats some crazy mental gymnastics bud was everywhere making crazy assumptions
Ikr bro was talking about a hypothetical ssj3 vegito. Like what are you on about
Amazing as always, though design wise i like 4 more, better than just simple hair color
(Medaka box pwease(
You did a good video but there's a lot of things I'd like to go over.
1. Buuhan is stronger than Kid Buu. Kid buu is only more dangerous.
2. I was going to mention that the Vegito and Buuhan feat was only universal but your pinned comment explains it better. That said, it's still a lower tier of multiversal than B.O.G SSG Goku.
3. I had a different interpretation of that databook saying ss4 is the ultimate transformation. I interpreted it as Super Saiyan 4 being the ultimate NORMAL Super Saiyan 4 transformation while SSG is something else entirely different. You'd also have to verify the credibility of this databook just like with the GT perfect files.
4. You had good points about SS4 but think of it like this. Base Gt Goku was already a powerhouse while base B.O.G was barely more powerful than Buu Saga base Goku. The form of SSG was able to bring base Goku to a level higher than ss3 Vegito while GT Goku surpassing Vegito had less to do with SS4 being op and more so Base Gt Goku being op.
5. Okay so my arguments may seem like i'm in favor for B.O.G Goku but let me throw a curveball. Base Super Goku is greatly misunderstood. Yes, Goku did absorb SSG but it's more like he could access the power at will as opposed to it just being absorbed into his base. According to Goku, SSGSS is a Saiyan with the powers of an SSG going Super Saiyan. This means when Goku uses his normal Super Saiyan forms, he's not using the power of a Super Saiyan God. This means that Cabba isn't God level and Goku can't make himself 400 times SSG by Going SS3.
6. Alright this will be my final point. SSG Goku was able to bring a Goku around Buu Saga base Goku level to stronger than SS3 Vegito BEFORE he could tap into the true power of the form. Super Saiyan God constantly got stronger in his fight with Beerus until he reached the full power of the form. I guess you could possibly argue that GT SS4 Goku was at this level too, but as alluded to before, the fact that base B.O.G Goku was much weaker than Base GT Goku implies SSG is indeed a stronger form.
1. Many statements that state Kid Boo is the strongest and not just "dangerous".
2. Not a lower form, per say. In a vacuum, yes. But because the BoG feat is a shared feat and it is through multiple clashes it can't be definitively scaled above Boohan's feat in DC.
3. The Databook is very credible. It's the Chozenshuu 4. That's fine if you interpret it like that. I think you could argue equal interpretation but I still think it's leaning more towards power.
4.I don't think that is substantiated in your post. Sure, it made Goku surpass Vegetto levels in SSJG but is it provably above Goku's power growth as SSJ4? Goku went from getting mollywhopped by a suppressed Baby Vegeta, to using "not even a smidgen of his power" as a SSJ4 and tanking a revenge death ball from Super Baby 2. On the other hand the multiplier from Golden Ooazaru alone is insane, as it lets Baby overcome that gap and even tank a x10 kamehameha from SSJ4 Goku.
6. Possible but I don't think it necessitates that.
@@Br0ku
1. The thing about Kid Buu being stronger than Buuhan is that it wouldn't make sense in the context of the story. Goku was much weaker than Super Buu and he was scared of Buutenks if I remember correctly. I'm kind of iffy on this, but didn't Toriyama also state that Gohan was the strongest unfused character? That would put him over Kid Buu and Buuhan was definitely stronger than Ultimate Gohan.
2. Okay, I didn't think of it like that but lets keep in mind that this feat was performed with punches. A ki blast such as a Kamehameha or a Super Kamehameha should be able to perform the same level of power if not more on its own. Beerus was obviously stronger than Goku but he was heavily suppressed to the point of being equal to Goku in this clash.
3. Alright, I couldn't find any proof to deny whether or not it's reliable so i'll take your word for it. My interpretation hasn't changed but I can admit that this guide might have more credibility than I initially thought. I'll look into it more at some point.
4. I won't deny that SS4 is a huge boost but base GT Goku is way stronger than Base B.O.G Goku. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that base Super Goku didn't surpass GT Goku until sometime in the tournament of power. What do we know about Baby? Well we know Super Baby is stronger than Super Vegito and we know Super Baby 2 is basically the SS3 version of Super Baby which automatically puts him above SS3 Vegito. We don't know how much stronger he is than Vegito but the same could be said for SSG Goku and Suppressed Beerus. Heck, even the Golden Great Ape form constantly got stronger which is similar to what SSG was in the anime. How strong is Golde Great Ape? Well I can try to answer that in part 2 of this comment.
How strong is Golden Great ape? Some think it's 500x and others think it's 4000x. I think it's 500x considering Vegeta can do it and there's no evidence of GGA being anything more than a Super Saiyan great ape. HOWEVER, GGA was constantly getting stronger just like SSG was. How much stronger did he get? Well Super Baby was stronger than SS3 Goku and Super Baby 2 was 8 times stronger than Super Baby. SS3 Goku was still able to get some hits on Super Baby but they barely did any damage. I think it's fair to say Baby was roughly 10 times stronger than Goku which means GGA is likely 5000 times base at its full strength.
Goku:1
SS3 Goku: 400
GGA Goku: 500x(5000 at full power)
SS4 Goku: 50,000
Baby:10
Super Baby: 500
Super Baby 2: 4000
GGA Baby: 5000(50,000 at full power)
We know SS4 Goku and GGA Baby were roughly equal and though these numbers may not be accurate, they seem close enough based on how the fight went. The thing is that Base Gt Goku at the very LEAST is 400 times stronger than Base B.O.G Goku and even that's possibly downplayed. Although B.O.G and Gt Goku surpassed ss3 Vegito, Base Gt Goku would need less of a power increase than base B.O.G Goku would. Of course, none of this is actually outright proven, but it does explain why I think the way I do.
@@Ikeai-zv8lvthe same goku in anime beat ultimate gohan while nerfed.
@@om9959 Which anime Goku? If it's Super anime Goku, he was more or less equal to Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan as an SS2 before the tournament of power. I don't think Goku was nerfed either. Ever since B.O.G, we never see SSJ Goku fight god level characters. People say he's just suppressed but considering he always uses his normal SSJ levels to fight characters weaker than Buu, Goku being able to tap into the power of an SSG makes more sense than it just being his base form. Notice how every time Goku has fought God Level opponents, he either fought them in base or went SSGSS after which implies he was using the power of a ssg. In all honesty if we're comparing forms, we should compare TOP Goku to base GT Goku since they should have similar base forms.
who let bro cook☠
I find the argument of "Goku doesn't know Vegito's full power because the fusion was holding back" so completely ridiculous that it's not even funny, just confusing. He didn't just sense Vegito - for a time, he WAS Vegito.
He doesn't need to sense Ki to know how strong Vegito is, because VEGITO knows how strong VEGITO is in his own head; he knows his base, SSJ, SSJ2, and SSJ3 levels, the same way Goku knows his own levels in those forms without needing to specifically power up to max.
But also I do gotta say that Kid Buu being stronger than Fat Buu is weird as hell, since it's just not true. Just weird anime fuckery.
He's more dangerous and feral, but he cannot possibly be stronger logically. Goku at least *_thinks_* he could have beaten Fat Buu as SSJ3, and whether you believe him or not (since he was ALSO sure that if Majin Vegeta couldn't phase Fat Buu, then he couldn't either. But SSJ3 did retroactively make Goku a liar across the Buu arc so we'll ignore that), he also then is sure that he hasn't got a chance in hell against base Super Buu. Who is relative to SSJ3 Gotenks, Piccolo even says they are dead even.
Logically he got twice as powerful when he became Buutenks, and was then above a version of Gohan which could humiliate him previously. He absorbed Gohan, then because far more powerful again.
Vegito was utterly necessary for even just Buutenks, never mind Buuhan. Yet then Goku and Vegeta are both quite confident that on their own, fighting separately even, they could probably beat Kid Buu. No time at all passes for them to get more powerful. In fact only like a handful of minutes passes in-world from Vegito vs Buuhan to Goku vs Kid Buu, and no-one even really implies that Goku is stronger than he was before the fusion.
Logically speaking... Kid Buu's not even quite as powerful as Fat Buu. Not weaker by any large amount, but not quite on the exact same level.
That's what I'm saying, like you don't think Goku knows his own power??? 💀
Couldn't it be true that SS4 is weaker than SSG but still be the ultimate form of SS? Technically, SSG is just Goku imbuing foreign Ki into himself and becoming SSG? Or is God Ki just some linked, but transcendent form of Normal Ki?
In regards to the base GT Goku feat at the end of the Shadow Dragon Arc, it’s heavily implied that Goku at this point has fundamentally changed in the sense that he is no longer “living” but not necessarily “dead.” He makes a vow to Shenron in order to finish the fight and leaves, but the biggest implication that Goku is moving on to another place besides otherworld is the clothes he leaves behind and him vanishing. So there’s potentially the fact that him tanking Omega’s blasts were closer to a sort of Hax rather than raw durability, but everything leading up to that point implies that Goku had immense growth that just didn’t exist in BOGs.
gt aint canon so nothing in gt ever even happened. daima and gt and heroes are all fucking garbage
@@nomercyinc6783 super isn't Canon either, and seeing how Z ended, GT is actually the closest thing to being a sequel so it's far more likely to being Canon than super is
@@nomercyinc6783 I agree that heroes is garbage tho, haven't seen Daima yet to give my opinion of it, but it looks like a terrible idea for the series
@@luckyloser1946 How the f*ck isn´t Super Canon? I do agree that Heroes is just Fan Service trash tho.
@@luckyloser1946You stupid? Super is very canon.
It's been awhile, glad to see you again.
old Broku72 sub?
@@Br0ku Yessir 😎👌
@@danteshollowedgrounds welcome back 💪🏻
About Vegito. The thing is, Vegito is stronger in the old canon than in the modern one. Potara fusion = AxB in the old canon. So, Vegito = Goku x Vegeta (quantillions x quantillions?), which is insane power. So, PERHAPS (like the guidebook says) Vegito is stronger than SSJ 4 Goku (or SSJ 4 Gogeta?). But in the new canon, Potara fusion = (A+B)x100 (or less than 100). So, SSG is PROBABLY (below I'll explain why "probably") stronger than fusion. But if we compare SSG Goku and Vegito from Z, then, without a doubt, Base Vegito >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSG Goku.
BUT! Is SSG actually stronger than fusion? Goku said: "I don't even think that will give me a chance". So, he does not know for sure, and moreover, he cannot know, because he does not know the power of Beerus. HE CAN'T SENSE GOD KI! We can't use this statement as proof that SSG is stronger than fusion.
P.S. Pure Buu is the strongest Buu.
I think God is stronger, but SS4 is way more cold and badass imo, and that's why it's my favorite form. SS4 Goku just had that dog in him, especially with how Masako voiced him where he often sounded really sinister like her Goku Black voice. I think the only time in Super where Goku had that straight Goon Energy like SS4 would probably be MUI.
GT doesn’t exist, garbage.
@@SpiralSkylines Whatever you say.
@@TheJayspyder Ignore him
it's confirmed ssj4 is comparable to ssjblue and much steonger than god. both base cc goku and time patroller goku were equal until 4th transformation and ssj4 easily cancelled ssjgod and cc goku powers up to ssjblue and ssj4 and blue evenly matched
@@TheJayspyder What 99% of the community says as well.
I would just like to note that in the chouzenshou page it says that super saiyan 4 is the greatest of the SUPER SAIYAN forms and despite SSG's name being "super saiyan" god it is much more akin to a base saiyan that is a god and not a super saiyan form in and of itself. Can't say for entirely sure but just wanted to note that it could slightly change the argument
Don't know about SSG Goku but SSJ Blue Goku from tournament of power solos the whole GT without breaking a sweat.
My dumbass thinking SSJ4 = SSJB
I definitely think SSj God as a multiplier is way above SSj4, so only Goku's base power really plays a role in this equation and can offset the difference.
GT is a clusterfuck in terms of powerlevels though - one time base Goku is said to be above Kid Buu, another time (earlier on) he gets his ass kicked at SSj by a guy who then proceeds to get immediately killed by base Trunks. So yeah, there's that...
It doesn’t matter how strong the multiplier is. Bass GT goku is far above base b.o.g goku it’s really not close, even base gt goku from the start is far above let alone the one from the end, the difference is unmeasurable
@@truepainz4735 base Goku is far above his Z version, and yet somehow he struggles with shit-tier enemies until the writers decide it's time to return to action-based writing huh
I doubt it, like Zeon's video showed, when you examine the feats of both versions of Goku pre and post transformations, it's obvious ssj4 is much stronger. In Super ( Battle Of God's actually, his next video went into Super as that info came out ) Goku wasn't able to land a single hit on Beerus and Beerus was able to drop Goku in 2 hits knocking him out completely. In GT it was a similar situation Goku unleashes a flurry of blows and just from Baby blocking a full force punch sends Goku flying backwards. On the second attempt Goku actually lands the punch but it doesn't even effect Baby, Baby then spins Goku by his tail and smashes him into a rock face so hard it knocks him out of Ssj3 and completely cripples him so similar situations and outcomes. He did admit that Beerus's display was a bit more impressive knocking Goku back with a single finger and leaving him unconscious and in need of a senzu bean with a simple chop to the neck ( or pat to the shoulder in Super), meaning the gap between Beerus and Ssj3 Goku is probably greater than gap between Ssj3 Goku and Baby's but just not by a whole lot due ssj2 rage vegeta being able to close the gap and land hits on Beerus in just ssj2 and force Beerus to use 10% of his power. But when Bog Goku or Super Goku goes Ssj God Beerus ends up being much stronger, in GT when Goku goes Ssj4 his power ended up far surpassing Baby Vegeta (without even pushing Goku to his limits as a ssj4) in strongest form 2. Making Ssj4 even stronger than Ssj Blue as Goku didn't surpass Beerus until he achieved full Ultra Instinct, also in DragonBall Super Broly as Broly was using a very similar power to Ssj4 when he went ssj with his wrathful power and easily overpowered the power of two Ssj Blues.
Personally i always interpreted the super vegito > ssj4 statement as the power boost goku gained with fusion + ssj was equal or stronger than transforming into ssj4. For example if goku went ssj4 against buuhan then he would be close to super vegitos power. Because there is no way that ggoku after 15 years and another form( technically 3 with full power and ultra full power ssj) is still weaker than vegito. The hate boner dragonball fans have for gt is insane.
ruclips.net/user/shortsMslEpi3zx6A?si=6W1sNwdHUZx66b_o
Broke YOURE BACK, I haven’t heard of u in prolly half a decade
Yessir!
You got a sub. I have been trying to debate peope on reddit that GT Goku is not weak but they all seem to think Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 which never made sense to me due to your points.
You know what youre talking about. Good video.
Broku I hope youll be able to powerscale Base Goku at the EoZ but following super's continuity...
Here's a problem I have. Ssj4 has ALWAYS been called the ultimate super saiyan form because it's the strongest natural progression of super saiyan and lacks any noticeable drawbacks. Super saiyan god is not a natrual progression of super saiyan so you can't call it the Ultimate form of a super saiyan.
hard disagreee.
That does make sense it isn't in the natural progression
1 minute in, pure facts. Aight i'm watching that
changed my mind, thank you
the mental gymnastics go crzy on this one
great counter argument!
@@Br0ku we can discuss why if u want
Join the discord or hmu on Twitter. Both linked in discretion.
@@Br0ku done
It says in the GT Perfect Files that Ssj4 draws the battle power out to its utmost. Essentially, Ssj4 is litteraly as strong as the user can get at that point in time. Although the Jump from 3 to 4 initially was insane, I've calced 32,000,000. See, Ssj Baby was bodying Ssj3 Goku. Baby then becomes SB2, an Ssj3 and 8x stronger version of himself. He then goes Golden Oozaru, which is actually a 10,000x amp on top of his SB2 form due to Bulma powering him with 1000x the normal brutz waves required, with a 10x amp being the normal amount. And we know brutz waves grant power in GT, as it is later shown Bulma refueling Baby back to 100% power and energy as an Oozaru via that same brutz waves machine after they knocked eachother out. Goku would have to get 80,000x stronger (ssj3 and oozaru buff) on top of his Ssj3 self to even compete, which comes out to 32,000,000. And of course SFPSJ4 is 10x, which would be a 320,000,000x increase
That was the same statement for ssj3.
Really good video, though I just wanted to point out one thing. Multiversal doesn't just mean multi-universal. A multiverse is an infinite spanse of universes, like a hive of universes. Great work!
i rememer when broku was a small channel this is wild
Ssj blue Goku = Ssj4 Goku > Ssj god Goku > Super Baby 2 > Super Baby 1 > Super Vegetto (Buu Arc) => Rildo > Buuhan
False
I don’t know why a lot of people like to downplay on GT characters but they’re more powerful than previously thought
because they don't like it
@@altreon3608 well, that’s obvious
But that is still not an excuse, though
As someone who got the pleasure of enjoying GT as it came out..I know that the current cannon is ss4 isn't stronger but in my own head cannon SS4 is the true SSG form. The idea of going through thr golden Ozaru and harnessing the power coming out of it was always so sick and fit the origin of the sayians better to me.
well put together but when goku says he couldn't touch beerus even with fusion, then it was clearly another transformation outside of super saiyan.
I would disagree with that god ki is overated by multiple reasons but because it is a very powerful variant and more meaningful than, well, pulling something out of the a- and in multiple sagas it became the center of importance and gets development...
However the thought that even cabba can rival BoG goku is permanent an will haunt me , making me disappointed every time its reminded 💀
I still think I'm correct. It's overrated but still very useful. But the fandom overrates it by arguing that a God Ki user will always beat a non-god ki user, even though the source material heavily contradicts that.
@@Br0kuyeah, that's the other side of the coin when I mentioned cabba since he can damage Vegeta witch is relative to goku who surpasses BoG goku then that's where you're right. But I think I'm also right witch puts me in a neutral position
Idk If I did explained myself clearly that ofc, youre not wrong.
@@luisfernan-s7731ahh the horrible power scaling of the super anime will haunt forever this community, between the saiyan beyond god and the ssjg still being used it's a back and forth in which we don't know what's being used or not
@@jersont.3339 i still think the dragon ball super just couldn't keep up with the power scaling of gt and just decided:"fuck this, let's restart this shit".
@@caioroman2379 when gt started using dbz scales saying kid buu was the strongest that was the moment we knew gt didn't make any sense
I can literally never take Kid Buu > Buuhan seriously ever again after Toyama literally just came out and said Buuhan was stronger than just started debunking statments made in the anime himself. At this point its just funny to watch people push their agendas over the literal show runners of the anime when it comes ANIME ONLY statments. Its kinda like a feats over statments thing, but the statment is coming straight from the anime producer's mouth.
What’s funny is that months later Koyama said that Kid Boo was the strongest.
To add on to the base vegetto vs buu thing, in the manga vegetto wastes no time going super saiyan he changes right off the bat
OK, so I don’t know if you’ll see this, but this video inspired me to do my own version of this and some information I just came across that can help you in your future video is in the official battle of gods guide. It’s stated to take place between the events of majin boo and GT and in a message from Akira Toriyama in the beginning, he states Beerus transcends more dimensions in goku’s’s previous opponents toei also comfermed its placement in 2012
Broku...If Buuhan is Low Multiversal, does that Mean current manga Goku should be baseline Multiversal or Multiversal+?
the multiversal boohan might be anime only so..
@@Br0ku so... Still low Multiversal?
@@sonicknuxgames5776it really depends on if you co-sign the idea of linearly upgrading Goku through scaling.
But through feats alone, UI Goku would still be Low-Multiversal. Since after the BoG feat, the best we get is Beerus/Champa threatening to destroy 2 Macrocosms.
@@cantstopbrock Oh yea, I forgot they almost did that...
Would that feat count as Multiversal+?
@@sonicknuxgames5776 nah stillLow-Multiversal just to a higher extent (can destroy 2x the amount of space time continuums as SSG Goku/BoG Beerus/Boohan can). Multiversal+ is literally destroying an infinite number of space time continuums. A Dragon Ball feat that’d line up with that would be for example, Demigra threatening to destroy all of history in Xenoverse (because there’s an infinite amount of histories).
When Goku goes ssj4 against Baby he pretty much just clowns on him with zero difficulty until baby becomes a golden great ape. It's specifically mentioned that baby uses a FAR higher concentration of blutz waves to become stronger than normal; like, thousands of times higher concentration. He does this, and Goku is still able to fight evenly with him after he does so. Now the blutz-wave to power increase isn't flat out told to us, but it should stand to reason that the ratio of waves to power should be consistent unless specifically stated otherwise, since it's stated that Baby used the higher concentration to become stronger than the transformation could otherwise make him.
Which means at a bare minimum, ssj4 Goku was more than 10x super baby 3 and at max, thousands of times stronger.
This is important since GT Goku in BASE is already stronger than kid Buu was, and if Kid Buu is universal already, then GT Goku is already fucking with universal levels of strength right out the gate.
This Goku becomes notably stronger when he gets his tail back, again when he achieves limit breaker in ssj4, and again when he becomes enlightened, to the point that he is able to tank Omega shenron's attacks in base where previously his ssj4 form was getting clowned on.
So by end of GT, base Goku is potentially hundreds of thousands of times stronger than the peak of Buu saga, and in ssj4 should be thousands of times more than even that.
If we wanna argue that super Goku is still stronger based on end of super feats or whatever that's its own discussion, but BASE end of GT Goku would probably be a good fight for start of series God Goku, before he starts mastering the form. ssj4 limit breaker would annihilate him, probably up until the TOP arc where characters started growing unreasonably fast for no reason. This assumes that we aren't lowballing GT, at least.
It's stated to be 1000x the normal amount of brutz waves Bulma gave him. Given that Oozaru normally is a 10x boost, that would naturally make baby get 10,000x stronger on top of his SB2 form. Also the fact Ssj1 baby beat Ssj3 goku, then got 8x stronger as SB2, Ssj4 needs to be at bare minimum 32,000,000x base form (80,000x Ssj3) to even compete
Cap super Goku stronger
@@JACQUEZJOHNSON23 no
@@GooberGlumbus yes
@@JACQUEZJOHNSON23 then prove it
I agree he would beat battle of gods Goku (Except I disagree that God is weaker than SSJ4), until Battle of gods Goku absorbs Super Saiyan God to his base, after that its an easy win for Canon Goku.
"You're a *SAIYAN* trying to immitate a god and im a *SAIYAN* connected our primal roots to what we really are. To think that i had to force you into that godly state just shows how far my training has gotten me a mere mortal"
What are your thoughts about Battle of Gods being canon to GT, since a lot of media actually implies that BoG happened in GT's Timeline
the z movie BOG is probably canon to GT
Its not as akira said they were different timelines
@@dsm2417 That doesn't change the fact that Battle of Gods was placed between GT and the Z Anime by Toei, Shueisha and even Xenoverse
@@chaoticchaos2177it never was got not cannon
@@JACQUEZJOHNSON23 It literally was shown and said and implied to be canon lol. I literally have evidence of Shueisha and Toei putting it between GT and DBZ lmao.
Just wanted to spitball something here.
I think Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta might be in a kind of Super Saiyan God state. That's why he has red hair in that form. While I know it's entirely coincidental, I think it would be a neat thing that fusing two Super Saiyan 4s has the same effect as the Super Saiyan God ritual.
Not only that but notice that earlier Goku goku received power from Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Pan, and you could say Vegeta was the fifth saiyan added to the energy pool when fusing with Goku, which could had made Gogeta an hybrid of ss4 and ssg, just a fun theory
I quite like this theory thank you for sharing@@sc.s3019
@Broku
Okay, heres question, and idk if its even been brought up:
When gt goku was turned into a kid, did he get any weaker physically? It was shown that he did lose stamina and some ki control, not being able to about to use instant transmission unless in ssj4 or had borrowed energy, and he could barely stay in ssj3 cause his child body couldn't keep up with the power outputted.
Unrelated to this video yes but what if we waited for goku to get back in his adult hood or say someone wished he was back to being an adult again. Theoretically, how strong do you think he could be once his body is back to normal? Just a thought.
While I do agree SSJ4 GT Goku is much closer to Super Sayian God Goku in DBS than people would think.
But the power scaling justifications for the end of Buu Saga is a bit strange. Like for example, why would Kid Buu even need to consider absorbing anyone if it made him weaker? Buuhan clearly has to be the strongest form of Buu Shown. Likewise, it is hard to say that Vegitio couldn't use SSJ3 since Goku could use it, and never brought it up. Also since we don't technically see the full power of Vegito or Kid Buu, it makes both of them counter productive as a reference point since it really is unknown.
Goku gt beeing able to shake hell and heaven just by charging his ki is a very impressive feat of its own because it happened in the very beginning of the anime, even frieza who "trained" in hell couldnt do nothing in there
Yeah, base Gt Goku dog walks base Super Goku in the beginning of the story.
@@khulmach9662GT Goku gets one shot in his strongest form by the weakest version of God Goku.
@@SpiralSkylines Feats disprove that.
Base Goku in GT connect Hell in base with Piccolo's help just like the 17s. A multiversal feat.
Goku's base in GT is way stronger than base Goku from both early Super movies.
Full power SSj4 is stonger than God Red.
@@khulmach9662 God shook the Macrosm with punches and risked destroying it. By default he’s way stronger than anything in GT (without using this headcanon shit yall are trying to get over). Don’t even get me started on post BOG SSG, it’s literally a no contest.
@@SpiralSkylines There is no head canon shite, its a fact that base Goku scales above the evil 17s that merged hell and earth.
Goku has not done any universe punches after that, does that mean he got weaker?
No, the reason it was happening in the first place was because Goku was not used to so much power so fast.
Base GT Goku mops Beginning of Super Goku where he just got Red and Blue.
Edit-> GT Goku has 9 years more training time and fought powerful people over the space travel.
To be honest now i really want to know where you would scale comp xeno or cc goku, comp because they have too many Versions and we will be here all day if you did that😂 anyway would make for a fire video
I have no idea myself. I'm not into that side of DB nearly as much.
I always had CC Goku at High Complex Multi.
While Xeno Goku at Outerversal Because of the Big ah Cosmology difference compared to DBS.
@@sonicknuxgames5776 But cc goku literally beat xeno goku in the promotional anime and your scaling is pretty accurate except I think both are at least outer
@@Br0ku If not that the best video idea would be if you could research it (just a request because you guys are the pros) to explain dbh cosmology because I don't think anyone has done a comprehensive explanation of that yet which is why some people underrate or overrate the characters of dbh
@@raviranjan9530 I mean on the games
How I think about it is that the oracle fish would’ve brung up ssj4 or at least hinted it to beerus. Instead he woke up looking to find and fight a ssg.
That logic shoots itself in the foot.z
I hate these thought experiments. They're always SO LITERAL.
Nobody takes into account that Japan OBJECTIVELY, does NOT use the term "stronger" as defined by; "Strength."
They've been PROVEN to show that sometimes when a character says someone is stronger, they're actually meaning that;
(this is the fighter who is most probable to win in majority of fights.)
That being said, you can apply THIS to MMA and popular showings in UFC.
For example; Ronda Rousey is considered to be "stronger" than Miesha Tate because Miesha was never able to defeat Ronda, despite multiple attempts.
However, Frank Mir is on par with Brock Lesnar, because during their first meeting Mir submitted Lesnar, & Lesnar won the 2nd match-up.
If you look at Dragonball through this new lens, things begin to make a LOT more sense! We casually see fighters with a lot less power than their foe, still stand a chance.
Krillin held back a Super Saiyan Blue Kahmehameha (when previously, he was clearly out-matched by normal Super Saiyan.)
My point is that power is NOTHING in these statements from translations. Technique is also a factor. Skill, and successful damage distributed.
There is a plethora of evidence to refer to. Android 17 catching Jiren off guard, and significantly injuring him. Broly overcoming Super Saiyan God "learning as he fights" which was quoted in the movie. Even the scouter's shattering in the Namekian saga was BLATANT foreshadowing that powerscale means NOTHING. You people are SO DENSE.
Especially "Saiyan Scholar" who high balls all the feats uber literally. It's already dumb enough that Japan uses the term "stronger" inappropriately, but then all of you feel the need to ADD on to the stupidity by taking their statements at face value! Super Vegetto is likely STILL stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku, because it's combining the wisdom of TWO fighters, as opposed to the one. And seeing as how Goku & Vegeta are so opposite of each other, it's a great counterbalance. Super Saiyan god is likely far "stronger" because it has forever altered Goku's ki to be "divine." A detail they dropped at several points throughout the progression of Dragonball Super.
You just can't debate this. What I'm saying is FULLPROOF. Any other opinion is just wrong.
Drivel. 😊
It's interesting to see this kind of take because I've always loved the original SS4 transformations and fusion as an older fan. But to see the way this gets broken down really goes to show how the differences in age don't translate well. Granted now it all about the "multiverse" I feel like the thought process behind the GT universe if it was to be remade or updated today(20 years later) would outright obliterate the form that it is currently which would question why super would even be a thing. if not solely for the involvement of the "Gods" Also the really only useful part to the Divine Ki from the SSG base transformation I feel would only be it's regenerative capability. But yea. I've always felt that SS4 would crush SSG hands down.
Yep. I don’t understand why everyone feels, otherwise. In pit ups, I see people decide SS4 loses to SSG. Goku from GT is waaay older and hasn’t been slacking in his training. Super just got finished with the Buu stuff lol.
No he wouldn't ss4 is weak
@@elvangulley3210exactly ssg slaps ssj4
bro said kid buu is stronger than buuhan ur opinions are infact irrelevant
Cool story bro
Bro lost me as soon as he said that lol. No credibility at all.
Hey Broku, or anyone of that matter. Could you guys tell me where he found the statement that super is cannon to Kai and the Z anime is cannon to GT. I’m trying to explain to a friend in a debate.
5:20 Lood being powerful enough to don the title of *_God Of Destruction_* in Beerus' eppy time absence or whatever he would have been doing to prevent him from ever seeing or paying any mind to Goku and the absolute insanitu going on throught the universe...
I'm sure Whis would have gotten a laugh out of that viewing it through his staff..
Man is speaking facts but do you know were I can find the statement from the show runner saying z movies are canon to gt
I’ll be making a video on it
You didn't mention goku absorption of god ki after fighting beerus when comparing base forms, are u leaving that out do to goku not shown being able to access god form at will right after?
Is god absorbed super Saiyan, super Saiyan god? NO
This is super Saiyan 4 vs super Saiyan god.
@@Br0ku ?? What they’re saying is SSG Goku would be stronger after absorbing the power of SSG because Goku’s base is stronger. Of course if we compare the strongest version of SSJ4 to the weakest version of SSG then SSJ4 would win. Literally in the BoG there is a form of SSJ that is stronger than SSG. If you took base Goku from later in the Super manga then he would literally be stronger than the weakest form of SSG. This whole video seems very biased and wrong imo.
LMAO
How in the world is "God-infused SUPER SAIYAN" the same as Super Saiyan God?
You are literally shifting the entire topic of the video to something else and saying that I am wrong.
SUPER SAIYAN GOD Vs Super Saiyan 4.
I state in the video that people think just regular SSJG Goku in Battle of Gods solos GT. I've been around the DB YT scene since 2016 and people would argue that.
I'm debunking the idea that the weakest version of SSJG beats SSJ4.
You literally state: " Of course if we compare the strongest version of SSJ4 to the weakest version of SSG then SSJ4 would win."
You are literally stating in one breath that my video is correct, in the other, saying I'm wrong and biased.
Make it make sense.
@@eye-chan1711
@@Br0ku I’m talking about SSG goku who has SSG absorbed into his base form… so Goku using SSG after the fight with Beerus. He would be exponentially stronger than Goku first using SSG.
If you’re talking about a fight with GT Goku and super Goku(first getting SSG)… I think it’s kind of important to mention Super Goku would get an insane boost in power to his base form if GT Goku didn’t beat him by then. He could then immediately stack SSG on top of that again.
That is unless we’re assuming Super Goku will just never de transform from SSG and has infinite stamina.
I also think bringing in base GT Goku taking the blasts from Omega at the end of GT isn’t really fair for power scaling. I think most people take that as Goku ascending because he died. I could see either way, but wouldn’t consider it reliable.
I’ve also seen pretty convincing evidence that Omega was not trying to actually win against Goku/Vegita. More that he was trying to get everyone to see the error of their ways. He never actually goes for the kill in a fight. Even Mr. Satan was able to tank one of his punches.
Assuming that Goku was ‘tanking’ Omega’s attacks in base is very shaky evidence imo. For both reasons above.
Can we please get a video on why GT Satan beats SSG goku?
You mentioned Goku using SSJ in his god infused base. And then mentioned later versions of GOku using SSJG after absorbing SSJG. Both of these are NOT the SSJG being referenced in this video.
I didn't mention Goku absorbing SSJG because SSJ4 defeats him anyways.
GOku's power ascending because he died makes zero sense. Not only do dead characters have scaling in DBZ (literal afterlife tournaments) but we have statements in the anime that Vegeta came back stronger when he came back to life. There are a bunch of crazy shit like that happens in DBZ franchise. Just because Satan survived doesn't mean anything. Even if he wasn't trying to kill Goku, his AP wasn't enough to stop him without killing.
So nope, actually, its not shakey at all. In fact, it's even more supported by the fact that before that, Goku was able to resist Omega's Negative Energy Ball... in base before this AND him having crazy power progression throughout GT making insane boosts in little time incredibly consistent. . @@eye-chan1711
I'm sure things get even messier when we throw Gogeta into the mix lol, considering that also one of the most debated things among Dragon Ball fans, is Vegeto or Gogeta stronger. Especially with SS4 Gogeta. Sure we see both Gogeta and Vegeto Blue, but even then still harder to measure which is exactly stronger, neither go 3, God, and only Gogeta goes 4.
We need an interview where the current owner of DB just says what's stronger than what