Just to clarify & respond to a few comments about Alduin as a nordic version of Akatosh. Belief =/= Reality If I were to say "X" culture believes in a flat earth, it does not mean I believe in a flat earth or that it is true. I am stating the culture broadly does. So, If I were to say nords believe akatosh and alduin to be one in the same, IT DOES NOT mean that this is the "reality" but rather but their "belief". Beliefs are also subject to change over time - like I state in the video: "I established earlier that Alduin is understood by the nords to be their version of akatosh, and rather than being venerated, he is appeased and the nords wish not to invoke him for fear he may end the world. Now, 4th era imperialised nords, tend to disassociate Alduin with the concept of akatosh, surely because it is hard to reconcile the idea of Alduin’s role with the great dragon god of the empire that is akatosh. But it stands that at least for the majority of Nordic history, and even some until today, understand or understood Alduin to be Akatosh." REMEMBER most nords of 4th era skyrim just worship imperial divines (akatosh and the like). ALSO, I DID STATE THE SOURCES IN THE VIDEO THAT SHOW NORDIC BELIEF THAT ALDUIN = AKATOSH, BUT I WILL SHOW THEM CLEARLY HERE: Variteites of Faith in Tamiel: [Found in ESO, 2nd Era] - Conclusion: Alduin = Akatosh Alduin (The World-Eater): "Alduin is the Nord variation of Akatosh. He only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Imperial Eight Divines. For example, Alduin's sobriquet, "the World Eater," comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one. Nords therefore see the god of time as both creator and harbinger of the apocalypse." Varities of Faith in the Empire: [Found in Morrowind/Skyrim, 3rd Era] - Conclusion: Alduin = Akatosh "Alduin (World Eater): Alduin is the Nordic variation of Akatosh, and only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Nine Divines. For example, Alduin's sobriquet, 'the world eater', comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one. Nords therefore see the god of time as both creator and harbinger of the apocalypse." Divines & the Nords: [Found in ESO, 2nd Era] - Conclusion: Alduin = Akatosh "Probably our biggest difference relates to the head of the pantheon. We Nords consider Kyne as the leader of the gods and find the Imperial fascination with Alduin (who they call Akatosh) to be both perplexing and mildly disturbing. We work diligently to keep Alduin asleep, while our southern neighbors try time and time again to get his attention! Which is why I begin every service in the temple with a prayer to praise Alduin (oh great god of time!), followed by a prayer to keep him at bay (may your slumber stretch on for a thousand generations!)." The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy: [Found in Skyrim, 4th era] - Conclusion: Alduin = Akatosh BUT the 'primitive nords' get things wrong. "And so, it is my conclusion that the Alduin of Nord legend is in fact mighty Akatosh, whose story grew twisted and deformed through centuries of retelling and embellishment. Through no real fault of their own, the primitive peoples of Skyrim failed to understand the goodness and greatness of the Great Dragon, and it was this lack of understanding that formed the basis of what became, ironically, their most impressive creative achievement - "Alduin," the World Eater, phantom of bedtime stories and justification for ancient (if imagined deeds)." OF COURSE THERE IS DIFFERING BELIEFS SUCH AS: Alduin is Real: [Found in Skyrim, 4th era] - Conclusion: Alduin =/=Akatosh "As my da used to say - Imperials are idiutts! That is why I am riting this book. I ent never rote a book before, and I do not reckon to rite one agenn, but sometimes a man must do what a man must do. And what I must do is set the recerd strate about the god called Akatosh and the dragon called Alduin. They ent the same thing, no matter what them Imperials mite say, or how thay mite wish it to be so. My da was never one for the gods, but my ma was. She wershipped all the Divines, and tot me lots of things. So I noe a thing or two about Akatosh. Just as much as any Imperial. I noe he was the first of all the gods to take shape in the Beginning Place. And I noe he has the shape of a dragon. My da even told me the story of Martyn Septim, and the things what happened when the gates to Oblivion opened. Septim turned into the spirit of Akatosh and killed Mehrunes Dagon. Now I dont noe about you, but any dragon that fites the Prince of Destruction is okay by me. Now I hope you understand the problim. Akatosh is good. Everyone, from Nord to Imperial, noes that. But Alduin? He ent good! He's the oposit of good! That Alduin is evil thrue and thrue. So you see, Akatosh and Alduin cant be one and the same. Growing up as a lad in Skyrim, I herd all the stories. Told to me by my da, who was told by his da, who was told by his da, and so on. And one of those stories was about Alduin. But see, he was not Akatosh. He was another dragon and a real wun at that. Akatosh is some kind of spirit dragon I think, wen he bothers to be a dragon at all (and not a god livin in sum kind of god plac like Obliviun). But Alduin is a real dragon, with flesh and teeth and a mean streak longer than the White River. And there was a time when Alduin tried to rool over all of Skyrim with his other dragons. In the end, it took sum mitey strong heroes to finally kill Alduin and be dun with his hole sorry story. So I got to ask - does that sound like Akatosh to you? No, frend. No it do not. And so I, Thromgar Iron-Head do firmly say, with the utmost connvicshun, that Alduin is real, and he ent Akatosh!" Temples of the Dragon Cult [Found in ESO, 2nd era] - Conclusion: Alduin is firstborn of Akatosh (which like I say in vid, could imply incarnation or aspect of Akatosh, which also aligns with the whole AKA-Tusk concept) "While no modern Tamrielan need believe these hopelessly fanciful fables, the Nords' simple-minded veneration for these places betokens their fear of the return of the Dragon Priests. During the worship of Akatosh (the dragon) as god-kings over men, these priests were the conduit through which dragons spoke, made laws, and were honored with grand and elaborate temples. When Alduin, Akatosh's firstborn, was defeated atop the Throat of the World during the mythical Dragon War, the cult that sprang up around these dragon guardians soon receded into the soil, buried among dragon mounds with the remains of these beasts." AT THE END OF THE DAY, I AM NOT SAYING THAT I BELIEVE ALDUIN = AKATOSH because obviously as players we are privy to the quests, dialogue and experiences of the games, as well as lore understanding of the elder scrolls that would be unachievable for most the nords within skyrim. So, in summary I believe there is a wealth of evidence ^ to show that for most of skyrim's history, nords BELIEVED Alduin = Akatosh. However an academic (Temples of Dragon Cult) understanding, or player (skyrim main quest) understanding would give one a very different point of view regarding Alduin. BUT again that is irrelevant when discussing their system of belief.
@@matthewwheeldon668 It's one of the greatest things about the universe. Every single interpretation of the same events is different but in its own fantastic way. In a way it's sort of realistic, show the same event to 6 different people and you'll get 7 different accounts of it.
If you are interested enough you should check out Double Negative. He has several videos on lore and book readings for the elder scrolls games even a discussion with Ted Peterson. He's honestly my favorite elder scrolls lore nerd, but I thought you'd like to see his stuff, if you haven't. :D
Whenever you guys Clarify or Explain an Elder Scrolls Lore, your imagination is more depictive, comprehensive rather than miniscule tidbits sparaticly parceled in Skyrim. How much "out of game" research mush you need to find out there is more than 4 Gods in Skyrim. Lol it's almost like the game didn't care.
I love how nords demonize Akatosh /Auri-el the chief elven god depicting him as Alduin. And on other side elves demonize Shor, chief nord god and depict him as Lorkhan
They don't. Nords worship Alduin and some believe he is an aspect of Akatosh, and that the Dragonborns, blessed by Akatosh, throughout history are the Divine's blessing to the Nords and one who will solve their problems. In fact, they worship Ysmir (or Talos), one who is blessed by Akatosh. They don't demonize Akatosh just like they don't demonize Alduin. For them, Alduin's role as the world eater is just part of a cycle in the universe and Nirn will be created once again. They see Alduin as the creator and destroyer of the world and the Nords revere him for his role in the universe.
@@corneliaaurelli1603 Alduin is not revered at all. He is "worshipped" in the sense that they believe if they please him enough they can keep him from coming to eat the world. It is the worship from fear not veneration.
The way I understand the Alduin/Akatoah relationship is like Jesus of Nazereth, and the God of Abraham in Christianity, Jesus is the son of God, but simultaneously is God. So I’m my mind, Alduin in the firstborn of Akatosh/Bormahu but still IS Akatosh
Hence why I like to headcannon that the dragonborn is the last born of aktosh and aludin's opposite both are huge chunks of akastosh and both are cosmic opposites one wishes to rule the other is destined to save in the end the two are atleast in my headcannon forever destined to either find or fight each other until the godhead wakes up
@@ravindunandirathna1600 there are characters in Oblivion that reference the Nord religion. Even if it is explained, it still makes the world much less interesting this way
What are you on about, both animal totem worship and praise with Nordic names of gods are present in game. They just made it very clear that Imperial influence is getting out of hand.
Alduin is 100% a deity. Whether he's the first born or actually Akatosh... idk. But the facts lie in the way he dies. When you don't absorb his soul it tells me he is truly not your equal. He's truly something greater. Seeing as you can absorb every other dragon soul.
Because you don’t really kill alduin. You banish him for a time but eventually he will end the kalper cycle. It’s why I think the atmorans may actually be from another cycle.
I always thought it was because he was an important part of the culpa cycle and couldn't permanently die, or be absorbed by another shard of the original time god? That, or akatosh absorbed, or saved him instead.
@@mr.j7444 absolutely. Alduin was corrupted by power and pride. He chose to rule over men instead of fulfilling his role in ending the Kalpa. The dragonborn needed to destroy Alduin so he can be reborn. Parthunax said that by trying to save the current kalpa you may help it to end faster.
Its good to finally have a fully comprehensive video on the my favourite pantheon and my favourite race. May Jhunal bless with with knowledge for the rest of this series, and so you can avoid the trickery of old Herma Mora.
I watched that ideal Skyrim lore video you made back a couple months or so, I've gotta say that video was great. Real shame that Bethesda did not choose to take Ulfric and the Old Holds in a more harsh and weathered direction in terms of Nord culture. Seeing a return to tradition with the reestablishment of the Tongues would have been way more interesting and a better take on the Nords. Although Ulfric contains some of these elements already it would have been nice if Bethesda made him more similar to a current era Ysmir. Having the Nords be Imperalised in the Fourth Era just makes for a more boring story and less authentic race of Nords. Also this was an interesting deep dive into the Atmoran Pantheon and Nordic gods. Love your work Scott, the Nords would reserve a place in Sovengarde for you.
No, the legend is that the Nord confronting Herma Mora was talking to a rabbit, who was Herma Mora in disguise, who could hear the deer that the Nord hunter was stalking but had lost. The hunter wished to know where the deer had gone and the rabbit told him that if the hunter had his long ears he could easily find his lost game as well as not go hungry in the future with such a better set of ears to work with. The rabbit further tells the man that if only he would wish for such ears he could have them. The man without thinking agrees that having such ears would be very useful and his ears start to change. The fox, or Shor, appeared to stop Herma Mora's trickery and save his people from becoming elves by driving off the rabbit and telling the hunter he is being tricked by the rabbit. The fox drives off the rabbit and then reveals himself to be Shor and warns against trusting rabbits who serve the Woodland man, Old Mora. Which is why you should always kill rabbits in Skyrim if you are a Nord.
I kill the rabbits after finding out there is a entry in the Combat Stats for "Bunnies Killed". I think the RUclips ESO pointed out that stat in one of his videos on "Things you probably didn't know about Skyrim" series.
The whole concept of a Dragonborn literally means for the Nords that Akatosh and Alduin are not the same. Akatosh gifted men a Dragonborn to defeat Alduin for usurping his father's throne. This is why back on Atmora the Dragon Cult was just and honorable. It all changed after the Dragon War when anything Dragon related was considered bad and compared to Alduin, the tyrant of the Dragon Cult. The books: Temples of the Dragon Cult, The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy and Alduin is Real, show us that the Nords see both Alduin and Akatosh as two different deities and it was the early Imperial scholars and scribes who messed it all up, saying that the Nords see both Time Dragons as one. And going by MK's text The Seven Fights of The Aldudagga, the Atmorans also saw a difference between Akatosh and Alduin, and the oversoul Aka-Tusk.
Yeah, people forget they once venerated the Dragons, and even had a bit of respect for the likes of Alduin, or at least accepted the place of his importance and such
@@thalmoragent9344 not really venerated, they were under their iron fist and some nords decided to join them becoming dragon priests. But this is just what Skyrim added and changed, the old lore was so much better.
An idea that popped into my mind during this video. Auri-el and Akatosh are the same god. Auri-el/akatosh lead the fight against Shor and his human armies during the Dawn Era, afterwards we ear tales of the dragons ( creations/ essences/ incarnations of Akatosh aka Auri-el) and how they dominated the nords in a tyrannical fashion. Seeing on how the nords are the human race with the closest realtionship with Shor and how Alduin is able to enter sovgarn and feast on nordic souls. could the dragons be a tool of Auri-el/akatosh to punish/control the armies of shor/lorkhan long after the divines lost the ability to walk on mundus. This would explain on why the Dragons, a species with a domination kink, never tried to dominate any other race besides the nords (all other provinces at the time where dominated by elves, as far as i understand it the Dragon Wars happened before the fall of the Aylieds/ Ra Gada invasion / Fall of Direnni Clan). Since by this theory, The Dragons where a revenge/control tool created by Auri-el against Lorkhan and his armies, it makes sence for the Dragons to not try to dominate elven races. Also, when phatumax whent "against his nature", he sided with Kyne. Kyne is often despicted as an ally of Shor/Lorkhan. He betrayed his creator, auri-el, by not only stoping what he was ment to do but by going directly against what he was MADE to do. In the eyes of his maker Phatumax joined the enemy, aka the followers of Lorkhan/Shor The Dragons are the Jailors of Man sorry for bad english, not a native speaker 😥
@@oDogg0206 Facts, they all ascend and make their own realm. Instead of Aetherius or Mundus or Oblivion, the madlads carve out their own Realm within the Aurbis
Surprised Nocturnal and Namira weren’t part of the ancient Atmoran pantheon considering that they are essentially the twin sisters of Shor, the former made from his blood and the latter formed from his flesh. However the Reachmen honour both Shor and Namira, and many Reachmen are full-blooded Nords, not just Bretons, so I suppose that counts, not to mention the Ancient Nords built a temple to Nocturnal. Though that’s more to do with individual Nordic cults as opposed to a whole collective racial belief.
If the Ancient Nords were building Shrines to the likes of Nocturnal or Namira, as well as Hermaeus Mora... well, maybe this is why the Falmer were getting fed up with Saarthal, who knows
Planned to do a nord warrior(or mage, haven’t decided yet) who worshipped shor & sailed to skyrim to finish his pilgrimage. This video will help alot in regards to fleshing out his backstory & reasons for the decisions he makes.
Fudge muppet, I have been binge consuming your content and I just want to thank you for keeping my imagination fed as well as keeping my love for elder scrolls alive. I hope you put out more videos soon so I can keep consuming them.
It’s a shame you didn’t mention the All Maker, whom the Skaal of Solstheim worship alone. Technically they are a Nordic deity, and I would honestly love to hear more about them. Especially since there isn’t much said about them in Skyrim
17:04 This is my head canon too! In fact, I think it may have played a role in the migration of Atmorans to Skyrim. My head canon history of Atmoran worship goes something like this: In the Merethic Era, some Atmorans worshiped an All-maker (as Fenari Strong Voice says) and others just worshiped animals. Which one came first, I don’t know. In either case, the All-maker (via The Hawk/Kyne) blesses the weather to be habitable as long as they treat the animals with respect and live sustainably. So early on, they all live similar to the Skaal. But even from the beginning, there is a (albeit small) divide in beliefs. Eventually dragons convince a faction of the animal worshipers that if they worship dragons over over animals, they will be given inhuman powers (at least to the leaders) and won't need to live sustainably. They can be as violent and glutinous as they want. This starts the Dragon Cult. I'm time, the dragons want ALL Atmorans to be their slaves and try to force the All-maker worshipers and "balanced" animal worshipers into the Cult. This sparks the Atmoran Civil War that led to Ysgrammor leaving for Skyrim. After the Night of Tears, the only Atmorans who were willing to seek revenge on the snow elves were the Dragon Cultists since the other Atmorans didn't believe in vengeful violence. These 500 companions brought the Dragon Cult flavor of worship to Skyrim and (primarily) their lineage carries on there today. Other migrations from Atmora to Skyrim are said to have happened because it got too cold. I believe this was a result of the wayward Dragon Cult Atmorans not adhering to their covenant with their deity to live sustainably. Either Atmora was always cold and the Dragon Cultists themselves couldn't handle it since they lost the blessing or there were so few faithful Atmorans (to the All-maker/Hawk/Kyne/whatever) that the land used to be nice but turned into a snowy wasteland.
The Khajiit one is the coolest said god manage to infiltrate Meridia's realm which is inaccessible to mortals and steal a ring off her finger too this day he was only capable of pulling it off
Just wanted to point out that the difference between mythology and theology has nothing to do with your own beliefs. Mythology is the collection of stories and myths of a religion and theology is the academic study of mythology. The less faith based version of theology is religious studies but both still study mythology. Mythology is to theology/religious studies what rocks are to geology.
@@rayzas4885 That is literally what it means to study mythology. Mythology is a religions stories of the divine and how it relates to the world around us. Theology doesn't exclusively study mythology but it does study it because studying christian theology without reading the bible (a story about the divine or a mythology) would be stupid.
Playing a Breton Warrior-Scholar at the moment, and these pantheon videos have been a *huge* help in fleshing out the kinds of influences he would learn from or even internalize in his travels, thanks guys!
I have come to look so forward to your uploads! I know you guys have gone into this before, but it just reinforces the idea that Skyrim (the game/plot) would be more impactful if the worship of Shor was outlawed by the Thalmor.
Than you for the video. Its amazing to me that I am still learning things about the lore of Skyrim over a decade after the game was released. Next time I raid a Nordic tomb and turn the dials with animal totems on them, they will have more significance to me than just the animals they appear to be.
Interesting that Drew is the Daedrologist whilst Scott is the Aedric scholar. Their general disposition would point otherwise. Anyway, as always, thanks for another great one Fudgemuppet!
Errrr..... know thy enemy? Perhaps it is simply more interesting to study something that is not of usual character, then again, what is appearance to truth? 🤔
And the nord are right, folks, Alduin is the time god, not that black dragon. That's why the secret working title of Skyrim was "Revenge of the Lusty Argonian Maid".
Wasn't there a priest of Talos in Bruma who mentioned that Nords traditionally prefer to worship Ysmir over Talos? Are they technically the same diety/person or was Ysmir a title that can be bestowed upon someone by the Greybeards. I get that stuff mixed up sometimes lol
From what lore is there to put together the nords associate that ysgramor became tiber septim as he continued on his conquest and became talos when he ascended. Which given the known life span of tiber septim it’s more than possible the atmorans where implied to live far longer than modern races of men.
Ysmir is a title given to several people, including, allegedly, Tiber Septim. However, the first Ysmir (or one of the first) was closed friends with Tiber Septim and helped him establish the empire so I think it's possible that he's the one people refer to when they say Talos was named Ysmir. It's theorized that the true Talos is not just Tiber Septim, but a mixture of Septim, Ysmir and The Underking
What is the general perception RE: the ancient Egyptian aspect of the Nords? I'm struck, not only by the mummification of the dead, but also by their belief in multiple contradictory myths as not being inherently flawed. Additionally, the story of Shor parallels that of Osiris in many respects, as a powerful god, murdered by a jealous rival deity, who subsequently rules in the afterlife.
I think the Nords say Alduin is Akatosh the same way Imperials say Akatosh is Alduin. Neither exactly understands the other so they just assume they're the same being. Magic had only fallen out of Nordic culture recently with the flooding of Winterhold. Worship of Jhunal fell out of favor long before that, already stated in Morrowind, maybe earlier.
Good video, but I feel like Ysmir should have been expanded on. I've seen some comments saying Ysmir is just a title to the Nords, but from my understanding thats not true. Ysmir is a deity, one that has seemingly come back to life multiple times and is considered the Nordic version of Talos.
He's not /supposed/ to be a diety, he was a mortal man who was resurrected by Shor, and has since become heavily involved with Talos. He's "worshiped" the way Dunmer "worship" their ancestors; not literally, but by paying him homage and respect.
I think that Atmorans were given the power of the Thu'um on the Throat of the World by Kyne, and this is where they considered themselves.. changed, into Nords, thus both the Breath of Kyne and Atmora stories are true in a sensible way.
Shor's main goal in Sovngarde is to make sure the party keeps going. If a mortal using his throne ensures that there are enough chairs at the feast, then why would he care? He's not using it at that moment. Plus, the idea that both the souls of Akatosh and Shezzar inhabit the same body seems contradictory to their nature.
@@benbittinger9789 But as Camel said, it's not about contradictions or mishaps In Nord culture it is what they perceive that becomes something in of itself Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh Though the Nords see Alduin as Akatosh himself, so they believe that people who pray to Akatosh are fuelling Alduin And lo and behold that very concept lead to Alduin awakening earlier than expected and springing forward the dragon cult in an attempt to rule Tamriel Now if the Nords didn't believe that then maybe Alduin wouldn't be specifically a dragon, or maybe he'd be represented as something else entirely by the Nords and manifest as a world eating bear or something Maybe if Nords didn't believe prayers to Akatosh went to Alduin instead Alduin would've stayed in his slumber for longer A single god may have many different changes depending on who's viewing it Gods in of themselves are contradictory beings and they are no strangers to working side by side or fighting one another for gain
I hope in a future Elderscrolls game, there's a story arch about Nords who wish to return to the Old Atmoran faith. Not only is it interesting, but also befitting the Nords more than the Imperial Pantheon. They should reclaim their culture.
Ok serious question for all Elder Scroll fans out there. I'm new to the series and I am absolutely loving it! However, I want to know more. What are some authentic Elder Scrolls books with canon lore in them that I can buy? Please provide titles and authors. I've always been interested in real world culture and mythology and this stuff is just fantastic. Thank you.
I wish you had touched more on the relationship betweem the Orcs and the Nords and Morlocke/Malacath. It would seem that the two cultures have a great deal in common and venerate similar concepts of martial prowess, perseverance and oathkeeping.
This is a great series thank you for it. I would also like it if you were to go back to explaining all of the Aedra individually and what they represent philosophically as opposed to the Daedra. I still remember the series though I don't think it was ever completed.
Nords used to be more immune to cold and taller. They lost that blessing. And are now 50% immune to frost, not 100% and aren't immune to cold. Could freeze to death. Not talking about gameplay
There is some mythological credence to the idea of Shor shoring up a fighting force in Sovngard, as the warriors of Norse myth who went to Valhalla (called Einherjar) were expected to fight for Odin at Ragnarok, on Vigrid Field, where they would all die again, as well as Odin and the other gods.
It's a bit weird isn't it the nords consider alduin to be akatosh there a god of their time. But they fought him in battle and banished him it's odd thinking that they would get rid of one of their own gods.
@@fathergascoigne1457 How is Satan still an angel? If I'm not mistaken "Angel" is a reserved name for a holy being of god and it's in of itself a role/creation of ongoing commitment and service to the Lord The Bible does everything to demonize Satan and repel him from the divine discarding his rank of angel and holy status before plunging him into hell Explain to me how Satan is still an angel "Fallen Angel" is a title us humans have given Satan but he is an anti-angelic being by nature To claim that he's "Still an angel" due to the title we gave him is beyond stupid It's like saying the human race are "Fallen Fish/Apes" but we are now obviously a different species entirely from what we once were But one idiot still thinks we are an ape/fish The Bible goes into great lengths to explain the deceit of the devil and his grand illusions To claim he is STILL an angel is beyond laughable and is a pathetic argument because you know that isn't the case
Talos the mighty! Talos the unerring! Talos the unassailable! To you we give praise! We are but maggots writhing in the filth of our own corruption! While you have ascended from the dung of mortality, and now walk among the stars!
I feel like a questline that exemplifies the Nords’ view on creation stories is the one where you retrieve a lost verse about Olaf One-Eye for the Bard’s College. The writer claims that Olaf One-Eye never fought Numinex, yet Olaf’s presence in Sovrngarde says different. Perhaps both are true.
Shor is symbolised by the Fox, which is also a symbol of cunning. We also see Jurgen Windcaller, who swore off violence, so battle is obviously not the only thing Shor values in his mighty Hall.
My interpretation is that they all are equal in term of muscle, but they have different dispositions towards fighting styles. Between the three, the Orcs are the boldest, the Redguards are the most dexterous, and the Nords are the most headstrong.
Redgaurds are more known for thier skill, speed and endurance then thier physically strength. So its a toss up between Orcs and Nords, imo I would say Orcs are physically stronger then Nords though, due to the average Orc having a more hardcore lifestyle up in thier strongholds then your average Nord living in a village and thier was a book in Morrowind that stated that Orc corpses are sought after by necromancers for thier strength, and I remember at least two occasions in game where someone mentioned that a Orc had physically ripped someone apart with thier bare hands.
Its like Meridia and the Golden Knight. Hes an extension of her will...her champion. Alduin was sent by Akatosh and was given a role. Its his destiny bcuz thts what Akatosh wills. Which makes me think.... Daedra and Aedra are timeless. They dont perceive time like we do. They see past present n future all in one.(That or theyre just extremely meticulous on how they use their assets.)
@@Super50ldier like what does the god represent? He’s the dead god who welcomes warriors into Sovngarde. It’s rumored that Shor does this to prepare for the next Kalper and the inevitable war with the elven gods for supremacy over the next world
The Nords worship the Nordic version of Talos, as in Talos the Atmoran, the Ysmir King of the North. Not the same how Imperials would see him. It is no different how all the races see other gods in different perspectives.
@@dersu7417 Ysmir is not a person it is a title, in Nordic it means Dragon of the North. Both Tiber and the Last Dragonborn were bestowed that title by the Greybeards. The Varieties of Faith in the Empire book calls Talos Ysmir too.
@@kingclint2382 Many people were called Ysmir, the Nordic understanding of the word is not a name, it's a title. The Five Songs of King Wulfharth even say that the Nords bestowed that 'title' upon him: "For his zealotry, King Wulfharth was called Shor's Tongue, and Ysmir, Dragon of the North." Likewise both we and Tiber Septim were bestowed this title by the Greybeards: "You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North. Hearken to it."
hey Fudgemuppet yay new video, on 11.11 i was checking youtube refreshing waiting for videos from the gods, fudgemuppet and camelworks hehe, :( anyway bought skyrim anniversary on ps4 pro and series X and enjoying new character play through, cant wait for pod cast and loved the concert too and Lord Camel was featured too, disappointed fudgemuppet weren't featured, sorry to tweet so much hahah leading up to and during Skyrim anniversary just had to thank everyone your channels truly mean a lot and have made my adventures so much more thank you legends :)
Same reason that Jesus is the son of God when both existed before time itself, the roles that they play. Time's end must be born from it's progression.
@@KrausHaus0 Auri-El is the Elven version of the Time God Aka, the original Dragon God of Time just like how Akatosh is the Imperial version of Aka and Alduin is the Nordic version of Aka.
The All maker is Anui-El, the embodiment of Everlasting Light and Soul of all Things, who is the soul of Anu the Everything, embodiment of Order Stasis and Light.
@UCHK9fIOlxrntj7P3zlyyKDw I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense as the Skaal are more of an ancient nordic culture and the nords aren't known for worshipping anuic deities and worship more padomaic deities
@@ComeMoonandStar. The Aedra except Lorkhan are Anuic deities, they embody Anu's sphere. The Daedra are Padomaic, they embody Padomay's sphere of chaos.
Alcuin himself says he is the firstborn of Akatosh. Paarthyrnax also confirm this. So while the Nords are believed to think Alduin is their variation of Akatosh…I’m not convinced the Nords themselves would necessarily agree. Akatosh and Alduin, within their religions, have far too differing attitudes. Alduin was a thing needed to be appeased, lest he “devour the world” as the World Eater. Honestly, I’d like to think of it as if Alduin, Auriel, and Akatosh are all aspects of the same being, then: Auriel is the Beginning of Time, Akatosh is Ongoing Time, and Alduin is the End of Time. The Kalpic Cycle itself.
You know I find it interesting that parthurnaax refers to his inborn nature as evil dragons are the children of akatosh and some could say shards of the aka oversoul but if a dragons nature is evil wouldnt that imply they get this exact nature from there own father
My theory is that Orkey is a combination of Trinimac and Malacath. I also have a side theory, that Arkay is an Imperial interpretation of Trinimac. I came up with these separately, but I think they both work well together.
Doesn’t Akatosh choose the dragonborns? That means Alduin chooses people and bestows them the power to suck up dragon souls and destroy himself… I’ll never understand the lore.
The oversoul of AKA is making a decision. If Alduin wins, then he decides to end the Kalpa right then. If the Dovahkiin wins, then he decides to wait on it longer.
Yeah Talos is an Imperial god of the Imperial Empire. He may or may not have been a Nord, but he still represents the Empire far more than he represents Nords, though it seems the irony is lost on the lot of them who still worship him.
@@GothamandGomorrah well that's the thing, it is unconfirmed if he was in fact a Nord or not. All we do know is he created the 3rd Era Empire, became its key symbol and is revered as an entity of everything the Empire stands for. So his race as a mortal seems rather irrelevant when you consider how more important he is to the Empire postmortem.
So since you can go to sovngarde does that means the Nords are right and that their perspective of Shor is correct, and the perspective of the elves (i.e Lorkhan) is incorrect?
Basically, some random elf was really good at archery back in the day. Some viking folks halfway across the planet hated dragons. Neither of these had anything to do with each other. Then a bunch of cross contact pollution happened, and the two beings became conflated with one another so hard, even the universe thinks they are the same thing.
It makes sense that the telling of Nordic religion is based on song. I mean when on a long march off to war, one of the only things Nord warriors can do to pass the time is to sing songs they know and have heard. Kinda like how much of Greek mythology is told through poems and hymns rather than linear storytelling. Also the whole cyclic world ends in fire -> world starts anew is definitely a reference to Ragnarok.
So are the events of Skyrim the other side of the “future” Alduiin was first thrown into in the first age?(or whenever he was first sent forward by the elder scrolls)
Hey guys, what is Doomcrag from ESO? Is it another tower? It has it's own stone. And if it is, does that mean that there could be other towers on Nirn on different continents, like the one in yasuda, maybe in akavir? Or admora?
So, quick debate: Does Alduin's defeat at the Dragonborn's hand mean the start of the Fifth Era? I mean an event doesn't get much more major than the "death" of the god of Armageddon, right?
@@KrausHaus0 Eras can be declared by anyone or by an end of an event like the Dawn Era began when Mundus was created and ended when the Human-Elven War or War of Manifest Metaphors ended when the Convention took place at the Adamantine Tower when Trinimac killed Shezarr in battle and ripped out his heart from his chest then Auri-El shot across Tamriel and Red Mountain emerged, the Merethic Era began when the Convention after the Convention concluded and ended with the the rising of Humans and the fall of Elves, the First Era began when the Cameron Dynasty declared a new Era and started using dates and ended when the last of Reman Cyrodiil's heirs were assassinated by the Tsaesci, the Second Era began when the Reman Dynasty ended with the second Empire and ended when the Septim Dynasty began with the Third Empire and ended when the Oblivion Crisis ended with the Septim Dynasty and the Fourth Era began after the ended of the Oblivion Crisis and the Septim Dynasty, so the Fourth Era is still going and will ended when the Second Great War begins I think.
Gosh another great lore video as always. But man TES really know how create complex and so vastly such interesting mythology/beliefs than our own I wont lie.
Nords and elves are enemies .Auriel is an ally of elves. Alduin is an enemy of nords. Alduin end of time no more nords. Auriel beginning elves as born again back as gods.
Is it possible that the dragonborns are Shezzarines and so the last dragonborn cannot see Shor's soul in Sovngarde because the last dragonborn is Shor's soul?
Just to clarify & respond to a few comments about Alduin as a nordic version of Akatosh.
Belief =/= Reality
If I were to say "X" culture believes in a flat earth, it does not mean I believe in a flat earth or that it is true. I am stating the culture broadly does. So, If I were to say nords believe akatosh and alduin to be one in the same, IT DOES NOT mean that this is the "reality" but rather but their "belief".
Beliefs are also subject to change over time - like I state in the video:
"I established earlier that Alduin is understood by the nords to be their version of akatosh, and rather than being venerated, he is appeased and the nords wish not to invoke him for fear he may end the world. Now, 4th era imperialised nords, tend to disassociate Alduin with the concept of akatosh, surely because it is hard to reconcile the idea of Alduin’s role with the great dragon god of the empire that is akatosh. But it stands that at least for the majority of Nordic history, and even some until today, understand or understood Alduin to be Akatosh."
REMEMBER most nords of 4th era skyrim just worship imperial divines (akatosh and the like).
ALSO, I DID STATE THE SOURCES IN THE VIDEO THAT SHOW NORDIC BELIEF THAT ALDUIN = AKATOSH, BUT I WILL SHOW THEM CLEARLY HERE:
Variteites of Faith in Tamiel: [Found in ESO, 2nd Era] - Conclusion: Alduin = Akatosh
Alduin (The World-Eater):
"Alduin is the Nord variation of Akatosh. He only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Imperial Eight Divines. For example, Alduin's sobriquet, "the World Eater," comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one. Nords therefore see the god of time as both creator and harbinger of the apocalypse."
Varities of Faith in the Empire: [Found in Morrowind/Skyrim, 3rd Era] - Conclusion: Alduin = Akatosh
"Alduin (World Eater): Alduin is the Nordic variation of Akatosh, and only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Nine Divines. For example, Alduin's sobriquet, 'the world eater', comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one. Nords therefore see the god of time as both creator and harbinger of the apocalypse."
Divines & the Nords: [Found in ESO, 2nd Era] - Conclusion: Alduin = Akatosh
"Probably our biggest difference relates to the head of the pantheon. We Nords consider Kyne as the leader of the gods and find the Imperial fascination with Alduin (who they call Akatosh) to be both perplexing and mildly disturbing. We work diligently to keep Alduin asleep, while our southern neighbors try time and time again to get his attention! Which is why I begin every service in the temple with a prayer to praise Alduin (oh great god of time!), followed by a prayer to keep him at bay (may your slumber stretch on for a thousand generations!)."
The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy: [Found in Skyrim, 4th era] - Conclusion: Alduin = Akatosh BUT the 'primitive nords' get things wrong.
"And so, it is my conclusion that the Alduin of Nord legend is in fact mighty Akatosh, whose story grew twisted and deformed through centuries of retelling and embellishment. Through no real fault of their own, the primitive peoples of Skyrim failed to understand the goodness and greatness of the Great Dragon, and it was this lack of understanding that formed the basis of what became, ironically, their most impressive creative achievement - "Alduin," the World Eater, phantom of bedtime stories and justification for ancient (if imagined deeds)."
OF COURSE THERE IS DIFFERING BELIEFS SUCH AS:
Alduin is Real: [Found in Skyrim, 4th era] - Conclusion: Alduin =/=Akatosh
"As my da used to say - Imperials are idiutts! That is why I am riting this book. I ent never rote a book before, and I do not reckon to rite one agenn, but sometimes a man must do what a man must do. And what I must do is set the recerd strate about the god called Akatosh and the dragon called Alduin. They ent the same thing, no matter what them Imperials mite say, or how thay mite wish it to be so. My da was never one for the gods, but my ma was. She wershipped all the Divines, and tot me lots of things. So I noe a thing or two about Akatosh. Just as much as any Imperial. I noe he was the first of all the gods to take shape in the Beginning Place. And I noe he has the shape of a dragon. My da even told me the story of Martyn Septim, and the things what happened when the gates to Oblivion opened. Septim turned into the spirit of Akatosh and killed Mehrunes Dagon. Now I dont noe about you, but any dragon that fites the Prince of Destruction is okay by me. Now I hope you understand the problim. Akatosh is good. Everyone, from Nord to Imperial, noes that. But Alduin? He ent good! He's the oposit of good! That Alduin is evil thrue and thrue. So you see, Akatosh and Alduin cant be one and the same. Growing up as a lad in Skyrim, I herd all the stories. Told to me by my da, who was told by his da, who was told by his da, and so on. And one of those stories was about Alduin. But see, he was not Akatosh. He was another dragon and a real wun at that. Akatosh is some kind of spirit dragon I think, wen he bothers to be a dragon at all (and not a god livin in sum kind of god plac like Obliviun). But Alduin is a real dragon, with flesh and teeth and a mean streak longer than the White River. And there was a time when Alduin tried to rool over all of Skyrim with his other dragons. In the end, it took sum mitey strong heroes to finally kill Alduin and be dun with his hole sorry story. So I got to ask - does that sound like Akatosh to you? No, frend. No it do not. And so I, Thromgar Iron-Head do firmly say, with the utmost connvicshun, that Alduin is real, and he ent Akatosh!"
Temples of the Dragon Cult [Found in ESO, 2nd era] - Conclusion: Alduin is firstborn of Akatosh (which like I say in vid, could imply incarnation or aspect of Akatosh, which also aligns with the whole AKA-Tusk concept)
"While no modern Tamrielan need believe these hopelessly fanciful fables, the Nords' simple-minded veneration for these places betokens their fear of the return of the Dragon Priests. During the worship of Akatosh (the dragon) as god-kings over men, these priests were the conduit through which dragons spoke, made laws, and were honored with grand and elaborate temples. When Alduin, Akatosh's firstborn, was defeated atop the Throat of the World during the mythical Dragon War, the cult that sprang up around these dragon guardians soon receded into the soil, buried among dragon mounds with the remains of these beasts."
AT THE END OF THE DAY, I AM NOT SAYING THAT I BELIEVE ALDUIN = AKATOSH because obviously as players we are privy to the quests, dialogue and experiences of the games, as well as lore understanding of the elder scrolls that would be unachievable for most the nords within skyrim.
So, in summary I believe there is a wealth of evidence ^ to show that for most of skyrim's history, nords BELIEVED Alduin = Akatosh. However an academic (Temples of Dragon Cult) understanding, or player (skyrim main quest) understanding would give one a very different point of view regarding Alduin. BUT again that is irrelevant when discussing their system of belief.
Dang, I appreciate all that extra explanation ON TOP of the whole freaking video! Keep up the great work, Fudgemuppets!
There's is no definitive lore for the elder scrolls is that what your getting at
@@matthewwheeldon668 It's one of the greatest things about the universe. Every single interpretation of the same events is different but in its own fantastic way. In a way it's sort of realistic, show the same event to 6 different people and you'll get 7 different accounts of it.
If you are interested enough you should check out Double Negative. He has several videos on lore and book readings for the elder scrolls games even a discussion with Ted Peterson. He's honestly my favorite elder scrolls lore nerd, but I thought you'd like to see his stuff, if you haven't. :D
Whenever you guys Clarify or Explain an Elder Scrolls Lore, your imagination is more depictive, comprehensive rather than miniscule tidbits sparaticly parceled in Skyrim. How much "out of game" research mush you need to find out there is more than 4 Gods in Skyrim. Lol it's almost like the game didn't care.
I love how nords demonize Akatosh /Auri-el the chief elven god depicting him as Alduin. And on other side elves demonize Shor, chief nord god and depict him as Lorkhan
They're both wrong. There are only the Hist and Sithis.
They don't. Nords worship Alduin and some believe he is an aspect of Akatosh, and that the Dragonborns, blessed by Akatosh, throughout history are the Divine's blessing to the Nords and one who will solve their problems. In fact, they worship Ysmir (or Talos), one who is blessed by Akatosh. They don't demonize Akatosh just like they don't demonize Alduin. For them, Alduin's role as the world eater is just part of a cycle in the universe and Nirn will be created once again. They see Alduin as the creator and destroyer of the world and the Nords revere him for his role in the universe.
@@corneliaaurelli1603 Alduin is not revered at all. He is "worshipped" in the sense that they believe if they please him enough they can keep him from coming to eat the world. It is the worship from fear not veneration.
@@salkjdfhalsdgfkauhg The only true god is Todd
They revere Akatosh
Kyne: *Breathes*
Nords: So anyway, we started blasting
Snow elves go reeeeeeeee
>blasting
>implying ranged combat
>implying being too afraid to charge the enemy line
Ysgramor: So anyway, I started cleaving
Upon their creation, the Nords woke up and chose violence.
The way I understand the Alduin/Akatoah relationship is like Jesus of Nazereth, and the God of Abraham in Christianity, Jesus is the son of God, but simultaneously is God. So I’m my mind, Alduin in the firstborn of Akatosh/Bormahu but still IS Akatosh
Exactly this I have always thought this.
Yeah
Hence why I like to headcannon that the dragonborn is the last born of aktosh and aludin's opposite both are huge chunks of akastosh and both are cosmic opposites one wishes to rule the other is destined to save in the end the two are atleast in my headcannon forever destined to either find or fight each other until the godhead wakes up
Nothing will ever justify their absence in Skyrim to me
Tbf the Nords adopting the Imperial Pantheon has always been foreshadowed ever since TES Redguard.
@@ravindunandirathna1600 there are characters in Oblivion that reference the Nord religion. Even if it is explained, it still makes the world much less interesting this way
@@ravindunandirathna1600 imperials struggled to convert them within their own province in oblivion.
But it’s so much easier if we just write as if only the 9 divines work guys we don’t wanna have to write more stuff in our 10 year plus dev cycles.
What are you on about, both animal totem worship and praise with Nordic names of gods are present in game. They just made it very clear that Imperial influence is getting out of hand.
Alduin is 100% a deity. Whether he's the first born or actually Akatosh... idk. But the facts lie in the way he dies. When you don't absorb his soul it tells me he is truly not your equal. He's truly something greater. Seeing as you can absorb every other dragon soul.
Because you don’t really kill alduin. You banish him for a time but eventually he will end the kalper cycle. It’s why I think the atmorans may actually be from another cycle.
I always thought it was because he was an important part of the culpa cycle and couldn't permanently die, or be absorbed by another shard of the original time god? That, or akatosh absorbed, or saved him instead.
it's spelled Kalpa. It's a real sanskrit word.
@@mr.j7444 absolutely. Alduin was corrupted by power and pride. He chose to rule over men instead of fulfilling his role in ending the Kalpa. The dragonborn needed to destroy Alduin so he can be reborn.
Parthunax said that by trying to save the current kalpa you may help it to end faster.
Being the first born of Akatosh is some Imperial propaganda. Hail the Stormcloaks!
Its good to finally have a fully comprehensive video on the my favourite pantheon and my favourite race. May Jhunal bless with with knowledge for the rest of this series, and so you can avoid the trickery of old Herma Mora.
@@BabySniff what you want actual depth? That doesn’t sell to the masses.
I watched that ideal Skyrim lore video you made back a couple months or so, I've gotta say that video was great. Real shame that Bethesda did not choose to take Ulfric and the Old Holds in a more harsh and weathered direction in terms of Nord culture. Seeing a return to tradition with the reestablishment of the Tongues would have been way more interesting and a better take on the Nords. Although Ulfric contains some of these elements already it would have been nice if Bethesda made him more similar to a current era Ysmir. Having the Nords be Imperalised in the Fourth Era just makes for a more boring story and less authentic race of Nords.
Also this was an interesting deep dive into the Atmoran Pantheon and Nordic gods. Love your work Scott, the Nords would reserve a place in Sovengarde for you.
As a Nord main this fascinates me, but as an unrepentant Hermaeous Mora Stan this mildly pisses me off.
Herma talk a lot
Nord don’t like talk a lot
Herma boring
Herma bad
Stan
@@fleezyp Me Nord, Me big strong boy! RAGGGGH!
Ooh oh AHH AAH
Seen any elves? HAHAHA
No, the legend is that the Nord confronting Herma Mora was talking to a rabbit, who was Herma Mora in disguise, who could hear the deer that the Nord hunter was stalking but had lost. The hunter wished to know where the deer had gone and the rabbit told him that if the hunter had his long ears he could easily find his lost game as well as not go hungry in the future with such a better set of ears to work with. The rabbit further tells the man that if only he would wish for such ears he could have them. The man without thinking agrees that having such ears would be very useful and his ears start to change. The fox, or Shor, appeared to stop Herma Mora's trickery and save his people from becoming elves by driving off the rabbit and telling the hunter he is being tricked by the rabbit. The fox drives off the rabbit and then reveals himself to be Shor and warns against trusting rabbits who serve the Woodland man, Old Mora.
Which is why you should always kill rabbits in Skyrim if you are a Nord.
I let wolfs do that for me and then I kill the wolves because they attacked me
I kill the rabbits after finding out there is a entry in the Combat Stats for "Bunnies Killed". I think the RUclips ESO pointed out that stat in one of his videos on "Things you probably didn't know about Skyrim" series.
The whole concept of a Dragonborn literally means for the Nords that Akatosh and Alduin are not the same. Akatosh gifted men a Dragonborn to defeat Alduin for usurping his father's throne. This is why back on Atmora the Dragon Cult was just and honorable. It all changed after the Dragon War when anything Dragon related was considered bad and compared to Alduin, the tyrant of the Dragon Cult.
The books: Temples of the Dragon Cult, The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy and Alduin is Real, show us that the Nords see both Alduin and Akatosh as two different deities and it was the early Imperial scholars and scribes who messed it all up, saying that the Nords see both Time Dragons as one.
And going by MK's text The Seven Fights of The Aldudagga, the Atmorans also saw a difference between Akatosh and Alduin, and the oversoul Aka-Tusk.
Yeah, people forget they once venerated the Dragons, and even had a bit of respect for the likes of Alduin, or at least accepted the place of his importance and such
@@thalmoragent9344 not really venerated, they were under their iron fist and some nords decided to join them becoming dragon priests.
But this is just what Skyrim added and changed, the old lore was so much better.
Interestingly the gray beards give the last dragonborn the title of Ysmir, who was a champion of Lorkhan and likely one of the Shezzarine.
@@bernardoblanchetramirez6032 I agree. The Dragon Cult shit sucks.
Lol holy shit, this guy elder scrolls
An idea that popped into my mind during this video.
Auri-el and Akatosh are the same god. Auri-el/akatosh lead the fight against Shor and his human armies during the Dawn Era, afterwards we ear tales of the dragons ( creations/ essences/ incarnations of Akatosh aka Auri-el) and how they dominated the nords in a tyrannical fashion. Seeing on how the nords are the human race with the closest realtionship with Shor and how Alduin is able to enter sovgarn and feast on nordic souls. could the dragons be a tool of Auri-el/akatosh to punish/control the armies of shor/lorkhan long after the divines lost the ability to walk on mundus. This would explain on why the Dragons, a species with a domination kink, never tried to dominate any other race besides the nords (all other provinces at the time where dominated by elves, as far as i understand it the Dragon Wars happened before the fall of the Aylieds/ Ra Gada invasion / Fall of Direnni Clan).
Since by this theory, The Dragons where a revenge/control tool created by Auri-el against Lorkhan and his armies, it makes sence for the Dragons to not try to dominate elven races.
Also, when phatumax whent "against his nature", he sided with Kyne. Kyne is often despicted as an ally of Shor/Lorkhan. He betrayed his creator, auri-el, by not only stoping what he was ment to do but by going directly against what he was MADE to do. In the eyes of his maker Phatumax joined the enemy, aka the followers of Lorkhan/Shor
The Dragons are the Jailors of Man
sorry for bad english, not a native speaker 😥
Dwemer Gods EXPLAINED:
"F*** the Gods. We have logic."
Technically the Numidium counts as the brass god 😄
WAIT SPONGEBOB! WE'RE NOT CAVEMEN! we have technology.
Legendary
*WAIT KAGRENAC, WE'RE NOT CAVEMEN, WE HAVE TECHNOLOGY*
*entire dwemer people become gods like a boss*
@@oDogg0206
Facts, they all ascend and make their own realm. Instead of Aetherius or Mundus or Oblivion, the madlads carve out their own Realm within the Aurbis
Gotta love when you open RUclips and the first thing you see is a new Elder Scrolls lore vid. Keep up the great work!
Surprised Nocturnal and Namira weren’t part of the ancient Atmoran pantheon considering that they are essentially the twin sisters of Shor, the former made from his blood and the latter formed from his flesh. However the Reachmen honour both Shor and Namira, and many Reachmen are full-blooded Nords, not just Bretons, so I suppose that counts, not to mention the Ancient Nords built a temple to Nocturnal. Though that’s more to do with individual Nordic cults as opposed to a whole collective racial belief.
I thought a Reachmen genocide of nords prevented the mixing of Nord and Reachmen blood?
If the Ancient Nords were building Shrines to the likes of Nocturnal or Namira, as well as Hermaeus Mora... well, maybe this is why the Falmer were getting fed up with Saarthal, who knows
A cult is still part of the collective
@@fleezyp
But not representative of the whole.
@@Alizudo representation matters even if it’s one person doing it
Planned to do a nord warrior(or mage, haven’t decided yet) who worshipped shor & sailed to skyrim to finish his pilgrimage. This video will help alot in regards to fleshing out his backstory & reasons for the decisions he makes.
Why not both, battle mages are fun.
Comes to Skyrim: well I can tell YOU nord are an outlander.
Fudge muppet,
I have been binge consuming your content and I just want to thank you for keeping my imagination fed as well as keeping my love for elder scrolls alive. I hope you put out more videos soon so I can keep consuming them.
It’s a shame you didn’t mention the All Maker, whom the Skaal of Solstheim worship alone. Technically they are a Nordic deity, and I would honestly love to hear more about them. Especially since there isn’t much said about them in Skyrim
The only good part of my day night time calm and fudge muppet telling me a story about elder scrolls lore. Just perfection
17:04 This is my head canon too! In fact, I think it may have played a role in the migration of Atmorans to Skyrim.
My head canon history of Atmoran worship goes something like this:
In the Merethic Era, some Atmorans worshiped an All-maker (as Fenari Strong Voice says) and others just worshiped animals. Which one came first, I don’t know. In either case, the All-maker (via The Hawk/Kyne) blesses the weather to be habitable as long as they treat the animals with respect and live sustainably. So early on, they all live similar to the Skaal. But even from the beginning, there is a (albeit small) divide in beliefs.
Eventually dragons convince a faction of the animal worshipers that if they worship dragons over over animals, they will be given inhuman powers (at least to the leaders) and won't need to live sustainably. They can be as violent and glutinous as they want. This starts the Dragon Cult.
I'm time, the dragons want ALL Atmorans to be their slaves and try to force the All-maker worshipers and "balanced" animal worshipers into the Cult. This sparks the Atmoran Civil War that led to Ysgrammor leaving for Skyrim.
After the Night of Tears, the only Atmorans who were willing to seek revenge on the snow elves were the Dragon Cultists since the other Atmorans didn't believe in vengeful violence. These 500 companions brought the Dragon Cult flavor of worship to Skyrim and (primarily) their lineage carries on there today.
Other migrations from Atmora to Skyrim are said to have happened because it got too cold. I believe this was a result of the wayward Dragon Cult Atmorans not adhering to their covenant with their deity to live sustainably. Either Atmora was always cold and the Dragon Cultists themselves couldn't handle it since they lost the blessing or there were so few faithful Atmorans (to the All-maker/Hawk/Kyne/whatever) that the land used to be nice but turned into a snowy wasteland.
Unrelated but still curious about: How old does this make Valerica? She swears "By the Maker!" when you bring Serana to the Soul Cairn.
@@jimcalhoun361 well serana her daughter was from before the dwarves disappeared.
The All maker is Anui-El, the embodiment of Everlasting Light and Soul of all Things.
Love to see Atmora getting some love!! Great video as always, fellas
Scott uploading around 5 in the morning by Talos I shall watch !
I hope he does the Argonian God's after the imperial ones. Or the Orcish gods
This is a powerful lore shitpost holy fuck
By the hist
The Khajiit one is the coolest said god manage to infiltrate Meridia's realm which is inaccessible to mortals and steal a ring off her finger too this day he was only capable of pulling it off
Argonian: Tree and Void.
Aren't the orc gods just malacath?
Just wanted to point out that the difference between mythology and theology has nothing to do with your own beliefs. Mythology is the collection of stories and myths of a religion and theology is the academic study of mythology. The less faith based version of theology is religious studies but both still study mythology. Mythology is to theology/religious studies what rocks are to geology.
Thank you.
Theology is the academic study of the divivine and its relation with the universe of humanity not of mythology
@@rayzas4885 That is literally what it means to study mythology. Mythology is a religions stories of the divine and how it relates to the world around us. Theology doesn't exclusively study mythology but it does study it because studying christian theology without reading the bible (a story about the divine or a mythology) would be stupid.
Playing a Breton Warrior-Scholar at the moment, and these pantheon videos have been a *huge* help in fleshing out the kinds of influences he would learn from or even internalize in his travels, thanks guys!
Listening to this while my Arcane Thane character meditates in the shade of the Gildergreen. Thanks for all the great content throughout the years!
Thank you very much for the support! Only just saw this! Massively appreciate it
I have come to look so forward to your uploads! I know you guys have gone into this before, but it just reinforces the idea that Skyrim (the game/plot) would be more impactful if the worship of Shor was outlawed by the Thalmor.
Than you for the video. Its amazing to me that I am still learning things about the lore of Skyrim over a decade after the game was released. Next time I raid a Nordic tomb and turn the dials with animal totems on them, they will have more significance to me than just the animals they appear to be.
Surprised you didn't expand upon Ysmir more, are you planning on making a video on the Underking?
Interesting that Drew is the Daedrologist whilst Scott is the Aedric scholar. Their general disposition would point otherwise. Anyway, as always, thanks for another great one Fudgemuppet!
Errrr..... know thy enemy? Perhaps it is simply more interesting to study something that is not of usual character, then again, what is appearance to truth? 🤔
And the nord are right, folks, Alduin is the time god, not that black dragon. That's why the secret working title of Skyrim was "Revenge of the Lusty Argonian Maid".
Your articulate narrative is always so calming and enriching thank you so much for these series!
Wasn't there a priest of Talos in Bruma who mentioned that Nords traditionally prefer to worship Ysmir over Talos? Are they technically the same diety/person or was Ysmir a title that can be bestowed upon someone by the Greybeards. I get that stuff mixed up sometimes lol
From what lore is there to put together the nords associate that ysgramor became tiber septim as he continued on his conquest and became talos when he ascended. Which given the known life span of tiber septim it’s more than possible the atmorans where implied to live far longer than modern races of men.
Ysmir is a title given to several people, including, allegedly, Tiber Septim. However, the first Ysmir (or one of the first) was closed friends with Tiber Septim and helped him establish the empire so I think it's possible that he's the one people refer to when they say Talos was named Ysmir. It's theorized that the true Talos is not just Tiber Septim, but a mixture of Septim, Ysmir and The Underking
Curious if you’re planning on continuing this series, Scott. I’d be really interested to see a red guard one
It's always when I'm getting the urge to play a TES game you guys post. Drew definitely has some pact with Vile going on to summon us viewers.
What is the general perception RE: the ancient Egyptian aspect of the Nords? I'm struck, not only by the mummification of the dead, but also by their belief in multiple contradictory myths as not being inherently flawed. Additionally, the story of Shor parallels that of Osiris in many respects, as a powerful god, murdered by a jealous rival deity, who subsequently rules in the afterlife.
Not to resurrect an old comment but I noticed this too. The smaller burial urns in the barrows even resemble canopic jars
I think the Nords say Alduin is Akatosh the same way Imperials say Akatosh is Alduin. Neither exactly understands the other so they just assume they're the same being. Magic had only fallen out of Nordic culture recently with the flooding of Winterhold. Worship of Jhunal fell out of favor long before that, already stated in Morrowind, maybe earlier.
Or it's a Jesus and God situation.
Good video, but I feel like Ysmir should have been expanded on. I've seen some comments saying Ysmir is just a title to the Nords, but from my understanding thats not true. Ysmir is a deity, one that has seemingly come back to life multiple times and is considered the Nordic version of Talos.
He's not /supposed/ to be a diety, he was a mortal man who was resurrected by Shor, and has since become heavily involved with Talos.
He's "worshiped" the way Dunmer "worship" their ancestors; not literally, but by paying him homage and respect.
Due to the games, i think the episodes on the Nords, Dummer and Imperials will be the ones people are most used to, and know most!
That is why I look forward to the Redguard one, because it the one I understand least.
I think that Atmorans were given the power of the Thu'um on the Throat of the World by Kyne, and this is where they considered themselves.. changed, into Nords, thus both the Breath of Kyne and Atmora stories are true in a sensible way.
I was think that the last dragonborn is shor because you sit on shor's throne and you dont get force off the throne
Shor's main goal in Sovngarde is to make sure the party keeps going. If a mortal using his throne ensures that there are enough chairs at the feast, then why would he care? He's not using it at that moment. Plus, the idea that both the souls of Akatosh and Shezzar inhabit the same body seems contradictory to their nature.
@@benbittinger9789
But as Camel said, it's not about contradictions or mishaps
In Nord culture it is what they perceive that becomes something in of itself
Alduin is an aspect of Akatosh
Though the Nords see Alduin as Akatosh himself, so they believe that people who pray to Akatosh are fuelling Alduin
And lo and behold that very concept lead to Alduin awakening earlier than expected and springing forward the dragon cult in an attempt to rule Tamriel
Now if the Nords didn't believe that then maybe Alduin wouldn't be specifically a dragon, or maybe he'd be represented as something else entirely by the Nords and manifest as a world eating bear or something
Maybe if Nords didn't believe prayers to Akatosh went to Alduin instead Alduin would've stayed in his slumber for longer
A single god may have many different changes depending on who's viewing it
Gods in of themselves are contradictory beings and they are no strangers to working side by side or fighting one another for gain
@@benbittinger9789 Shezarr not Shezzar, spelling.
Great video! I love this new series and cannot wait for the next episode.
I hope in a future Elderscrolls game, there's a story arch about Nords who wish to return to the Old Atmoran faith. Not only is it interesting, but also befitting the Nords more than the Imperial Pantheon. They should reclaim their culture.
I dunno they’ve kinda tied them doves to it with the whole Talos worship.
Ok serious question for all Elder Scroll fans out there. I'm new to the series and I am absolutely loving it! However, I want to know more. What are some authentic Elder Scrolls books with canon lore in them that I can buy? Please provide titles and authors. I've always been interested in real world culture and mythology and this stuff is just fantastic. Thank you.
I wish you had touched more on the relationship betweem the Orcs and the Nords and Morlocke/Malacath.
It would seem that the two cultures have a great deal in common and venerate similar concepts of martial prowess, perseverance and oathkeeping.
correction: Herma Mora appeared to Ysgramor as a hare, it was Shor who appeared as a fox and killed the trickster.
This is a great series thank you for it. I would also like it if you were to go back to explaining all of the Aedra individually and what they represent philosophically as opposed to the Daedra. I still remember the series though I don't think it was ever completed.
Nords used to be more immune to cold and taller. They lost that blessing. And are now 50% immune to frost, not 100% and aren't immune to cold. Could freeze to death.
Not talking about gameplay
So dibella is associated with moths maybe just maybe the elder scrolls have something to do with her
Moths are also associated with Talos, the imperial army, and Lorkhan in the sermons of Vivec
I really love the mysticism of the Elder Scrolls universe. It, along with Discworld, strongly influence the softer magic of my own writing.
There is some mythological credence to the idea of Shor shoring up a fighting force in Sovngard, as the warriors of Norse myth who went to Valhalla (called Einherjar) were expected to fight for Odin at Ragnarok, on Vigrid Field, where they would all die again, as well as Odin and the other gods.
Reminds me of some builds, called Atmoran Totems, in Tamrielic Vault.
It's a bit weird isn't it the nords consider alduin to be akatosh there a god of their time.
But they fought him in battle and banished him it's odd thinking that they would get rid of one of their own gods.
That's kind of like saying christians should like satan, because he's an angel in their mythology.
@@jamescarey6263
*Was an angel
@@philswiftdestroyerofworlds1988 Is
@@fathergascoigne1457
How is Satan still an angel?
If I'm not mistaken "Angel" is a reserved name for a holy being of god and it's in of itself a role/creation of ongoing commitment and service to the Lord
The Bible does everything to demonize Satan and repel him from the divine discarding his rank of angel and holy status before plunging him into hell
Explain to me how Satan is still an angel
"Fallen Angel" is a title us humans have given Satan but he is an anti-angelic being by nature
To claim that he's "Still an angel" due to the title we gave him is beyond stupid
It's like saying the human race are "Fallen Fish/Apes" but we are now obviously a different species entirely from what we once were
But one idiot still thinks we are an ape/fish
The Bible goes into great lengths to explain the deceit of the devil and his grand illusions
To claim he is STILL an angel is beyond laughable and is a pathetic argument because you know that isn't the case
@@philswiftdestroyerofworlds1988 Calm down, dude.
Talos the mighty! Talos the unerring! Talos the unassailable! To you we give praise! We are but maggots writhing in the filth of our own corruption! While you have ascended from the dung of mortality, and now walk among the stars!
Heimskr for Highking
Stop peddling the false gods of the southern man Heimskr.
Atmoran master race represent. Where muh Nord brothers at?
NORDs rule 😎
Excited to see Imperial pantheon and see Tiber Septim among the list
I feel like a questline that exemplifies the Nords’ view on creation stories is the one where you retrieve a lost verse about Olaf One-Eye for the Bard’s College. The writer claims that Olaf One-Eye never fought Numinex, yet Olaf’s presence in Sovrngarde says different. Perhaps both are true.
Shor is symbolised by the Fox, which is also a symbol of cunning. We also see Jurgen Windcaller, who swore off violence, so battle is obviously not the only thing Shor values in his mighty Hall.
Who is physically strongest in The Elder Scrolls; Orcs, Redguards, Nords?
My interpretation is that they all are equal in term of muscle, but they have different dispositions towards fighting styles. Between the three, the Orcs are the boldest, the Redguards are the most dexterous, and the Nords are the most headstrong.
Redgaurds are more known for thier skill, speed and endurance then thier physically strength. So its a toss up between Orcs and Nords, imo I would say Orcs are physically stronger then Nords though, due to the average Orc having a more hardcore lifestyle up in thier strongholds then your average Nord living in a village and thier was a book in Morrowind that stated that Orc corpses are sought after by necromancers for thier strength, and I remember at least two occasions in game where someone mentioned that a Orc had physically ripped someone apart with thier bare hands.
I always thought it depends on the individual in this case.
Oh wait! Kyne and Hircine! The Nords call themselves The Children of Kyne. And the Forsworn worship Hircine
Its like Meridia and the Golden Knight. Hes an extension of her will...her champion. Alduin was sent by Akatosh and was given a role. Its his destiny bcuz thts what Akatosh wills. Which makes me think.... Daedra and Aedra are timeless. They dont perceive time like we do. They see past present n future all in one.(That or theyre just extremely meticulous on how they use their assets.)
GOD TIMESTAMPS
Kyne (Hawk) 2:01 , 16:07
Alduin (Dragon) 2:44
Shor (Fox) 14:12
Mara (She-Wolf) 17:59
Dibella (Moth) 19:17
Stun/Tsun (Whale/Bear) 19:50
Junal (Owl) 21:00
Tsun (Bear).
What does Shor say?
@@Super50ldier like what does the god represent? He’s the dead god who welcomes warriors into Sovngarde. It’s rumored that Shor does this to prepare for the next Kalper and the inevitable war with the elven gods for supremacy over the next world
@@aquapb893 What does the Fox say?
@@Super50ldier -_-
The Nords worship the Nordic version of Talos, as in Talos the Atmoran, the Ysmir King of the North. Not the same how Imperials would see him. It is no different how all the races see other gods in different perspectives.
Ysmir is not nordic version of talos as far as i know. He was one of three people who became talos.
@@dersu7417 Ysmir is not a person it is a title, in Nordic it means Dragon of the North. Both Tiber and the Last Dragonborn were bestowed that title by the Greybeards.
The Varieties of Faith in the Empire book calls Talos Ysmir too.
@@kjaldir1089 usually when people talk about Ysmir it's in reference to Wulfharth. The OG Ysmir
@@kingclint2382 Many people were called Ysmir, the Nordic understanding of the word is not a name, it's a title.
The Five Songs of King Wulfharth even say that the Nords bestowed that 'title' upon him: "For his zealotry, King Wulfharth was called Shor's Tongue, and Ysmir, Dragon of the North."
Likewise both we and Tiber Septim were bestowed this title by the Greybeards: "You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North. Hearken to it."
Your videos are the best to fall asleep to.
hey Fudgemuppet yay new video, on 11.11 i was checking youtube refreshing waiting for videos from the gods, fudgemuppet and camelworks hehe, :( anyway bought skyrim anniversary on ps4 pro and series X and enjoying new character play through, cant wait for pod cast and loved the concert too and Lord Camel was featured too, disappointed fudgemuppet weren't featured, sorry to tweet so much hahah leading up to and during Skyrim anniversary just had to thank everyone your channels truly mean a lot and have made my adventures so much more thank you legends :)
So do the nords think that Alduin commanded the eleven army? And why does Alcuin call himself first born of akatosh if akatosh was created after him?
Same reason that Jesus is the son of God when both existed before time itself, the roles that they play. Time's end must be born from it's progression.
Akatosh was created via Dragon Break, meaning Auri-El is always was the dragon god of time
@@KrausHaus0 Auri-El is the Elven version of the Time God Aka, the original Dragon God of Time just like how Akatosh is the Imperial version of Aka and Alduin is the Nordic version of Aka.
@@benbittinger9789 Exactly.
What about the Skaal? Are they not Nords? I was interested in hearing more about the All-Maker.
Same
The All maker is Anui-El, the embodiment of Everlasting Light and Soul of all Things, who is the soul of Anu the Everything, embodiment of Order Stasis and Light.
@@Super50ldier I personally imagine him being shor as it doesn't really make sense for ancient nordic civilizations to worship anuic deities
@UCHK9fIOlxrntj7P3zlyyKDw I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense as the Skaal are more of an ancient nordic culture and the nords aren't known for worshipping anuic deities and worship more padomaic deities
@@ComeMoonandStar. The Aedra except Lorkhan are Anuic deities, they embody Anu's sphere. The Daedra are Padomaic, they embody Padomay's sphere of chaos.
FINALLY, been waiting for this video for years
Alcuin himself says he is the firstborn of Akatosh. Paarthyrnax also confirm this. So while the Nords are believed to think Alduin is their variation of Akatosh…I’m not convinced the Nords themselves would necessarily agree. Akatosh and Alduin, within their religions, have far too differing attitudes. Alduin was a thing needed to be appeased, lest he “devour the world” as the World Eater. Honestly, I’d like to think of it as if Alduin, Auriel, and Akatosh are all aspects of the same being, then: Auriel is the Beginning of Time, Akatosh is Ongoing Time, and Alduin is the End of Time. The Kalpic Cycle itself.
You know I find it interesting that parthurnaax refers to his inborn nature as evil dragons are the children of akatosh and some could say shards of the aka oversoul but if a dragons nature is evil wouldnt that imply they get this exact nature from there own father
That's an interesting way to see it. I always looked at it as him saying Dragons wanting to dominate equals being evil.
Then again wasn't it akotosh who sent the Dragonborn?
@@cherrycola4476 Depends on whether you believe the theory that the Dragonborn is a Shezzarine or not I suppose.
It is kinda interesting how the imperialisation of the Nords kind mirrors the christianization of Scandinavia between the 8th and the 12th centuries.
My theory is that Orkey is a combination of Trinimac and Malacath.
I also have a side theory, that Arkay is an Imperial interpretation of Trinimac.
I came up with these separately, but I think they both work well together.
Doesn’t Akatosh choose the dragonborns? That means Alduin chooses people and bestows them the power to suck up dragon souls and destroy himself… I’ll never understand the lore.
The oversoul of AKA is making a decision. If Alduin wins, then he decides to end the Kalpa right then. If the Dovahkiin wins, then he decides to wait on it longer.
Ysmir's beard!!! I love all this Nord stuff!
The nords have cool gods
Talos was a nord not a imperial
He was Breton.
@@EnmityTemplar he was Nord ancient writing's said you could be right 😆
@@EnmityTemplar could be both.
What do we know.
Do to "dragon breaks"
@fudgeMuppet are you going to do an overview, podcast or breakdown of the "additional content" from the anniversary edition?
I was 100% positive sure was the snake. Learn something everyday
I always write my nord characters as worshippers of the old gods since it’s way more interesting
Do you have a moment to talk about your lord and savior, Talos?
That's an imperial god which Bethesda confused for Norsic pantheon weird
Yeah Talos is an Imperial god of the Imperial Empire. He may or may not have been a Nord, but he still represents the Empire far more than he represents Nords, though it seems the irony is lost on the lot of them who still worship him.
The story of Skyrim would definitely be better if they replaced Talos with Shor
@@SilverFang2789 Is it ironic if he was Nord?
@@GothamandGomorrah well that's the thing, it is unconfirmed if he was in fact a Nord or not. All we do know is he created the 3rd Era Empire, became its key symbol and is revered as an entity of everything the Empire stands for. So his race as a mortal seems rather irrelevant when you consider how more important he is to the Empire postmortem.
Is this the same Scott from the last video? Do y'all have two Scotts??
Where can I get the preset or the sliders of the character in the thumbnail?
So since you can go to sovngarde does that means the Nords are right and that their perspective of Shor is correct, and the perspective of the elves (i.e Lorkhan) is incorrect?
Basically, some random elf was really good at archery back in the day. Some viking folks halfway across the planet hated dragons. Neither of these had anything to do with each other. Then a bunch of cross contact pollution happened, and the two beings became conflated with one another so hard, even the universe thinks they are the same thing.
It makes sense that the telling of Nordic religion is based on song. I mean when on a long march off to war, one of the only things Nord warriors can do to pass the time is to sing songs they know and have heard.
Kinda like how much of Greek mythology is told through poems and hymns rather than linear storytelling.
Also the whole cyclic world ends in fire -> world starts anew is definitely a reference to Ragnarok.
So are the events of Skyrim the other side of the “future” Alduiin was first thrown into in the first age?(or whenever he was first sent forward by the elder scrolls)
Question: Isn't Ysmir A Twilight God, Or Am I wrong?
Isn’t there a whale bone bridge in Sovngarde? So does the whale totem represent Shor/Lorkhan?
Shor is the fox, because he's quick and clever.
Tsun, the man standing in front of the whale bridge, is the whale.
@@Alizudo No, Tsun is the Bear.
Hey guys, what is Doomcrag from ESO? Is it another tower? It has it's own stone. And if it is, does that mean that there could be other towers on Nirn on different continents, like the one in yasuda, maybe in akavir? Or admora?
Hello Fudgemuppet, my muatra feels stiff what can I do??
Find a silt strider and then look for a hole on the silt strider
@@zhalosupercell2486 then give it a ride
I imagine if the nords where turned into elves they would probably be a more Celtic Elven Race
I know it's been a while since a build was made, but what about a Falmer Slayer build pls?
So, quick debate: Does Alduin's defeat at the Dragonborn's hand mean the start of the Fifth Era? I mean an event doesn't get much more major than the "death" of the god of Armageddon, right?
Eras are defined by who rules the imperial throne, unless a new family replaces the Medes in a meaningful way I don’t think they’ll declare a new era.
@@KrausHaus0 Eras can be declared by anyone or by an end of an event like the Dawn Era began when Mundus was created and ended when the Human-Elven War or War of Manifest Metaphors ended when the Convention took place at the Adamantine Tower when Trinimac killed Shezarr in battle and ripped out his heart from his chest then Auri-El shot across Tamriel and Red Mountain emerged, the Merethic Era began when the Convention after the Convention concluded and ended with the the rising of Humans and the fall of Elves, the First Era began when the Cameron Dynasty declared a new Era and started using dates and ended when the last of Reman Cyrodiil's heirs were assassinated by the Tsaesci, the Second Era began when the Reman Dynasty ended with the second Empire and ended when the Septim Dynasty began with the Third Empire and ended when the Oblivion Crisis ended with the Septim Dynasty and the Fourth Era began after the ended of the Oblivion Crisis and the Septim Dynasty, so the Fourth Era is still going and will ended when the Second Great War begins I think.
I think you meant rabbit for what Hermaeus Mora disguised himself as. If I am wrong please message me. Looking forward to your reply.
Gosh another great lore video as always. But man TES really know how create complex and so vastly such interesting mythology/beliefs than our own I wont lie.
Are you going to continue the series?
Awesome video dude
Any more of these coming?
Nords and elves are enemies .Auriel is an ally of elves. Alduin is an enemy of nords. Alduin end of time no more nords. Auriel beginning elves as born again back as gods.
What are those animals on Claws on doors? In elder scrolls Nordic ruins.
Is it possible that the dragonborns are Shezzarines and so the last dragonborn cannot see Shor's soul in Sovngarde because the last dragonborn is Shor's soul?