Regarding fun & playtesting, a direct character controller makes a world of difference. My last 3 month game was kind of a strategy game that wasn't playably "fun" until a lot of separate components were made and set up to work together. My goal wasn't to sell it, but still get it functional to keep learning. It was a slog and as soon as it worked I dropped it, ready to do my next game. This one has a direct character to play and the fun is already viable a few weeks in, despite the environment only white boxed.
How many hours were spent on the 1 month project? For people who get 10 hrs a week that is 40 hrs total. I gave a feeling that 300-400 hours went into upt, but I have no idea.
They've mentioned having other jobs I think. I'm also interested in this and wonder if they tracked it to any extent in this project. I'm always trying to remind myself that while I've been working on something for years, I've only put in a fraction of hours (1-3h daily).
3 months sounds ok on paper, but how about the idea for the game itself? I was thinking of pretty much the same stuff you mention in the video, but the issue I have with my current game projects is that they lack a plan / roadmap, which I'm trying to figure out at the moment. And tbh - it can probably take months to make a decent plan for what kind of game to e en build or at least it feels like that to me 😅 Doing a game in 3 months without any plan sounds more like just throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks or what kind of random ideas somebody from the team might have during those 3 months.
well then just make the plan first, get your character designs nailed down, get your story nailed down, get your level design nail down, etc and then ounce you think you have everthing you'll need start that 3 month working period. keeping in mind that you can't plan for everything and just adapting to what ever problems show up.
For solo dev project, I think it's a good "smell" that you might be dreaming up a project that is too big if the design by itself is overwhelming. For designs that seem big, I would pluck out the interesting mechanics and try to make mini-games as POC. My general guidance on this: #1 - Only work on projects that are no more than 2x your last project. If you haven't released a 1 month project, you probably have no business working on a two year project. #2 - Work on projects where you only have 1 new mechanic to add. If the new project requires multiple new mechanics, set it aside for a bit and come up with another project that uses just one of the new mechanics. Once that is done, revisit your previous idea. You'll have code in hand and lessons learned. This method allows you to make progress on your bigger vision games while protecting you from delivering it right into the bottomless pit of unfinished despair. Those two tips can help keep things closer to your actual capabilities.
I don't see how a three month to develop game would take months to plan haha. I'm just getting started learning game dev but ideas for games pop into my head and I'l flesh out those ideas in like an hour, and then maybe a little bit more will occur to me a bit at a time over several days. Then I think as you start working on it you flesh out the ideas a bit more. A game with only a three month dev scope shouldn't need more than 2-3 days planning and then you make the fine-grained decisions as you work on it and figure out what works and what doesn't. If you're taking months to plan out a game, that's not a 3 month game scope, you're planning a game that will probably take 3+ years to make. The whole point of this video was him saying to not do that, and stick to those small scope games, and you should be able to plan those in at most a few days.
They have a one page game design document that you can fill out in an hour or two to get a decent plan for the general scope of your game, maybe give that a look
Thanks awesome video! So Unicycle Pizza Time released with a single level? How long is it? I'm really scared of people refunding if the game is very short :( Is this a reasonable fear?
The refunds for us are mainly due to the fact that it's a ragegame, not game length. The level can technically be cleared in 3min, but it requires a few hours before you actually get good enough for that. -M
The only “small” games I’d play would be cheap games I could pick up and play coop. I generally don’t play games that seem like phone apps. If you can make money doing it great but as a consumer I just don’t see me buying these games so it’s hard to picture others buying too unless you were a streamer or something. Keep it up though, love the channel. Happy you had some success.
I think the one month duration is more for beginners who just need to do the whole process a couple times. After that, 3-5 months is more than enough to create a solid ~$10 game.
I love playing 2 to 4 hour narrative games. They give satisfaction much quicker than the 100+ monsters like BG3. I can sit down and finish a whole experience in a weeknight. Journey, Gone Home, the Beginner's Guide have all been great hits for me. Same for Slay the Princess but the amount of branching in that game makes it huge even though you technically finish one run in about 4 hours.
@@jakecassar6554 you reminded of a cool game you might like then and it’s free. Short and leaves a lingering effect on you, not a positive one though. Check out “perfect vermin”
What are your thoughts on making a small game, with the intention to continually expand it? I'm an experienced software developer, and this is the model that appears to work best with applications. Make it work, then keep making it work better forever. But I do understand that the gaming market is a bit different than the business market. What are your thoughts on this?
In game dev, especially steam, there is a lot of weight to your initial release of the game. It’s not impossible but it’s very difficult to generate hype towards an update for a game, paid or not. And early access is risky. And then it’s a question of is it even worth it to continue expanding the game? Idk, maybe there is some type of “chapter” approach that could work for you
Initial release matters quite a lot, unfortunately. A small game with less content than what is intended might give a bad/mediocre first impression of your game. If people have a bad/mediocre impression on the initial release, it's unlikely that they'll remember to come back after the bad/mediocre first impression. You'd basically need to get luck with some Streamer / RUclipsr that picks up the game and covers it after updates are done, with the hope that you'll regain interest. It's just way too risky, in my opinion. I think having a demo and generating hype for a minimum of 3 months might be better before release... but that is just my guess. Chris Zukowski has way better advice on marketing strategies for videogames and you're better off listening to them than me.
It heavily depends. First of all, never expect your first game to go viral or be big, so always make it into a self contained thing with a start and an end. In the rare case it does go viral and blows up, you can just do dlcs or chapters as mentioned or just keep doing free updates like Terraria. In case it does not blow up, you can just make either sequels or similar games with slightly different settings. Look at games like PC Caffe simulator (or whatever it's called). A guy made a small, contained game, it didn't blow up but he wanted to expand on the idea so he just made a sequel which, at its core, is basically the exact same game but with the added ideas and in a different city.
@@maze._ Thank you. That is a good answer. I've seen a couple of games gain momentum this way, and even increase their purchase price over time as content is added. But the sample size is very small and it is hard to draw conclusions from that. I did notice that Steam has a page for 'Recently Updated'. I haven't noticed it before. Perhaps this is new? I saw the imemdiate benefit in this page, in finding games are activelty supported and getting bug fixes and content updates. 'Maybe', is as a good of an answer as any.
I've broken my "big "project down into a series of small ones... but now it feels like I have to break those *SMALL* projects down into even SMALLER ones? 6o.o I still have to set them down before I can build any real momentum behind them, and when I pick them back up after like, 18 months of tireless stacked responsibility, only God knows where I left off, you know?
That sounds like terrible advice. Make games that you like! Not short games just to make as much money as possible and because it's the "meta", that sounds so soulless. Why develop video games? If it's just about the money, you might as well go back to a normal job.
You can still make small games and be passionate about it. I'd argue that it's easier to be passionate about a smaller project because long dev times inevitably lead to burnout
@@Dargaran short cycle games =/= bad games. A very short but well executed game can still be great, and I'm all for it. Did you even try Unicycle Pizza Time?
I cannot back the narrative of this video. And it's not healthy for the gaming industry as a whole. Steam get's flooded with poor games and hobby projects. They run on servers and serious developers don't want a 40% cut for which is now 30%. Not everyone and his mother needs to be a game developer. And a lot out there wants to be one for the wrong reasons.
@@ryuusaisai no its not really useless advice. People don't succeed in gamedev because they don't realize the games they make are not good. It has nothing to do with scope really.
Great tip, this way you build your way forward with smaller potential wins along the way. Plus, if the micro game is super popular you can always do a second installment with more features.
If you try to write your "core" code in a modular un-coupled way (even better if you make it its own Plugin/Module) you can then re-use it in your next game (e.g. Settings Menu, Movement Controller) or even re-using the majority of the codebase for more iterative or art direction different game.
3 months time you are obviously talking about "3 months of Full time work" and with at least some game dev experience. I don't think you can make anything in 3 months if you have only 2 hours a day after work and zero game dev experience. This is at least my case and I was able to make just a solid prototype in one year ;) Ok, it is probably a medium complexity game and not a simple small game, but still...no chance doing anything in 3 months under these circumstances...in my opinion
Okay so what constitutes a single mechanic like if your making a wizard game is each spell a separate mechanic or with a shooting game is each gun a mechanic? Particularly if they do different things.
It’s a bit grey, but I would say a spell casting mechanic is one medium sized mechanic. The spells shouldn’t be _too_ difficult to differentiate while keeping the code changes contained the specific spell implementation (vs the spell cast inputs and unlocking systems). It can balloon to be too large for 3 months, but most mechanics can do that.
There are two reasons you might be making a game or game(s). One is that you want to be a game developer, and it doesn't matter what in particular you make, just that's what you want to do for a living. In this case, the fast shovelware might be the way to go. But the other is that you have a specific game you really want to make, and in that case making some shovelware you're not interested in does not further your goal except insofar as it gives you some experience. And it may be actively counterproductive because making something you have no passion for can turn you off it altogether, whereas if you'd just focused on a game you have actual passion for that can give you the determination to stick with it through thick and thin until it's done.
This is where breaking your game apart is smart. You know you want to make a grand RGP? Prototype an inventory system and make it into a micro game. You can then do the same for other mechanics or systems until you have all the pieces. Or even prematurely start combining the early systems into games in the meantime. Brands are built on iteration. Start with a scale you have means to complete and keep building on that foundation.
Problem with many small things scope projects is. Say you make on ever 3 months that is 4 a year for 2 years. You as a single dev now have 6 games to provide support updates and bug fixes for. It has a massive downside as well ulesd of course you are a dodgey dev that do not update support or bug fix that us
Here is my idea to make a small scope game. Take an classic game like an atari 2600 game. Then ask a simple question if this game was made today what would it look like. Finally make that game!
there's an old tweet that said something along the lines of "i want smaller games that are uglier made for less money that cost more and i'm not kidding". seems like that might become the meta! and/or, it's the game jam method 🤔
@@metallsnubben yeaaaah that's it! i love it lol and with self-publishing, it's at least a little more possible. other than steam and other storefronts taking their cuts, of course
@@d3monable Literally true for me, I've spent an order of magnitude more on indie than AAA games and the ones I do get would almost always either be on mega sale or in a bundle I think the literal only exceptions to that in the last 5 years are The Great Ace Attorney and Guilty Gear Strive
Even if you don't play them, it's still good to start with small games. If you don't charge some insane amount it shouldn't feel disingenuous to make small games, just because a game is small doesn't mean it can't be really solid.
@dobrx6199 That advice doesn't apply to everyone. It depends on your personality and motivation. I personally have zero interests in making small games because I make games I want to play and small games are games I don't want to play.
Making games as art or as a hobby is totally valid. If you want to consistently make a living, you have to make what people will buy while managing your own expenses. Smaller scope will get most indie devs there faster, if they can make a good game.
@@vaelinalsorna1649 so you'll never create game jam games? A lot of good larger games were originally small game jam games. If you can't shrink your game idea into something small, then you have a scope problem. What are you trying to make? Elden ring? Small games is the way.
Regarding fun & playtesting, a direct character controller makes a world of difference. My last 3 month game was kind of a strategy game that wasn't playably "fun" until a lot of separate components were made and set up to work together. My goal wasn't to sell it, but still get it functional to keep learning. It was a slog and as soon as it worked I dropped it, ready to do my next game. This one has a direct character to play and the fun is already viable a few weeks in, despite the environment only white boxed.
"Don't worry about what we talk about in the feature tier list", I'd watch your take on a micro-game tier list. Do's and don'ts and features.
That's actually a great tier list idea 💡!!!
How many hours were spent on the 1 month project? For people who get 10 hrs a week that is 40 hrs total.
I gave a feeling that 300-400 hours went into upt, but I have no idea.
They've mentioned having other jobs I think. I'm also interested in this and wonder if they tracked it to any extent in this project. I'm always trying to remind myself that while I've been working on something for years, I've only put in a fraction of hours (1-3h daily).
I doubt it was 300 to 400, it was two people working semi part time, and they didn't even have a full month because of gamescon
@@dobrx6199 we'll see. Don't underestimate what a diet of Monster can accomplish :P
30 days at 10 hrs a day is 300 hrs. One person could hit that.
With unreal and experience, less than a month
loving the videos mate! You help people like me a lot!
3 months sounds ok on paper, but how about the idea for the game itself? I was thinking of pretty much the same stuff you mention in the video, but the issue I have with my current game projects is that they lack a plan / roadmap, which I'm trying to figure out at the moment. And tbh - it can probably take months to make a decent plan for what kind of game to e en build or at least it feels like that to me 😅
Doing a game in 3 months without any plan sounds more like just throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks or what kind of random ideas somebody from the team might have during those 3 months.
well then just make the plan first, get your character designs nailed down, get your story nailed down, get your level design nail down, etc and then ounce you think you have everthing you'll need start that 3 month working period. keeping in mind that you can't plan for everything and just adapting to what ever problems show up.
For solo dev project, I think it's a good "smell" that you might be dreaming up a project that is too big if the design by itself is overwhelming. For designs that seem big, I would pluck out the interesting mechanics and try to make mini-games as POC.
My general guidance on this:
#1 - Only work on projects that are no more than 2x your last project. If you haven't released a 1 month project, you probably have no business working on a two year project.
#2 - Work on projects where you only have 1 new mechanic to add. If the new project requires multiple new mechanics, set it aside for a bit and come up with another project that uses just one of the new mechanics. Once that is done, revisit your previous idea. You'll have code in hand and lessons learned. This method allows you to make progress on your bigger vision games while protecting you from delivering it right into the bottomless pit of unfinished despair.
Those two tips can help keep things closer to your actual capabilities.
I don't see how a three month to develop game would take months to plan haha. I'm just getting started learning game dev but ideas for games pop into my head and I'l flesh out those ideas in like an hour, and then maybe a little bit more will occur to me a bit at a time over several days. Then I think as you start working on it you flesh out the ideas a bit more. A game with only a three month dev scope shouldn't need more than 2-3 days planning and then you make the fine-grained decisions as you work on it and figure out what works and what doesn't. If you're taking months to plan out a game, that's not a 3 month game scope, you're planning a game that will probably take 3+ years to make. The whole point of this video was him saying to not do that, and stick to those small scope games, and you should be able to plan those in at most a few days.
They have a one page game design document that you can fill out in an hour or two to get a decent plan for the general scope of your game, maybe give that a look
3 Month 2 person.
200 hr x 3 x 2 1200 hr rought❤🎉😮 thats like a number.
Someone been smoking in that room and they just had to put that poster up to let Marnix know who's the boss :O
Thanks awesome video!
So Unicycle Pizza Time released with a single level? How long is it? I'm really scared of people refunding if the game is very short :( Is this a reasonable fear?
The refunds for us are mainly due to the fact that it's a ragegame, not game length. The level can technically be cleared in 3min, but it requires a few hours before you actually get good enough for that. -M
Do you plan to improve the game after launch and add more features/content or is it 3 month release and forget?
Nice another video
One question: How do you manage, update those games? Imagine having like 4-5 games that you have to keep fresh.
A released game doesn't need perpetual updates. A finished game can be just that.. finished.
You just need to get it to a good state and then unless it's super successful there's no need to do future updates
The only “small” games I’d play would be cheap games I could pick up and play coop. I generally don’t play games that seem like phone apps. If you can make money doing it great but as a consumer I just don’t see me buying these games so it’s hard to picture others buying too unless you were a streamer or something. Keep it up though, love the channel. Happy you had some success.
I think the one month duration is more for beginners who just need to do the whole process a couple times. After that, 3-5 months is more than enough to create a solid ~$10 game.
I love playing 2 to 4 hour narrative games. They give satisfaction much quicker than the 100+ monsters like BG3. I can sit down and finish a whole experience in a weeknight. Journey, Gone Home, the Beginner's Guide have all been great hits for me. Same for Slay the Princess but the amount of branching in that game makes it huge even though you technically finish one run in about 4 hours.
@@donkeykong315 I’m in that process now myself which is how I found this channel. It’s not a bad idea and I’m giving it a whack
@@jakecassar6554 you reminded of a cool game you might like then and it’s free. Short and leaves a lingering effect on you, not a positive one though. Check out “perfect vermin”
There is a third way, make a prototype of a small game and expand it later to a medium size, that is also make it longer
Seems good to make small games to build a platform to then go into a large game and be able to afford putting effort into the actual dream game
What are your thoughts on making a small game, with the intention to continually expand it?
I'm an experienced software developer, and this is the model that appears to work best with applications.
Make it work, then keep making it work better forever.
But I do understand that the gaming market is a bit different than the business market.
What are your thoughts on this?
In game dev, especially steam, there is a lot of weight to your initial release of the game. It’s not impossible but it’s very difficult to generate hype towards an update for a game, paid or not. And early access is risky. And then it’s a question of is it even worth it to continue expanding the game?
Idk, maybe there is some type of “chapter” approach that could work for you
Initial release matters quite a lot, unfortunately.
A small game with less content than what is intended might give a bad/mediocre first impression of your game.
If people have a bad/mediocre impression on the initial release, it's unlikely that they'll remember to come back after the bad/mediocre first impression.
You'd basically need to get luck with some Streamer / RUclipsr that picks up the game and covers it after updates are done, with the hope that you'll regain interest.
It's just way too risky, in my opinion.
I think having a demo and generating hype for a minimum of 3 months might be better before release... but that is just my guess. Chris Zukowski has way better advice on marketing strategies for videogames and you're better off listening to them than me.
It heavily depends. First of all, never expect your first game to go viral or be big, so always make it into a self contained thing with a start and an end. In the rare case it does go viral and blows up, you can just do dlcs or chapters as mentioned or just keep doing free updates like Terraria. In case it does not blow up, you can just make either sequels or similar games with slightly different settings. Look at games like PC Caffe simulator (or whatever it's called). A guy made a small, contained game, it didn't blow up but he wanted to expand on the idea so he just made a sequel which, at its core, is basically the exact same game but with the added ideas and in a different city.
@@maze._ Thank you. That is a good answer.
I've seen a couple of games gain momentum this way, and even increase their purchase price over time as content is added. But the sample size is very small and it is hard to draw conclusions from that.
I did notice that Steam has a page for 'Recently Updated'. I haven't noticed it before.
Perhaps this is new?
I saw the imemdiate benefit in this page, in finding games are activelty supported and getting bug fixes and content updates.
'Maybe', is as a good of an answer as any.
@@suspecm6316 Those are good marketing ideas.
Thank you.
Nice
I've broken my "big "project down into a series of small ones... but now it feels like I have to break those *SMALL* projects down into even SMALLER ones? 6o.o
I still have to set them down before I can build any real momentum behind them, and when I pick them back up after like, 18 months of tireless stacked responsibility, only God knows where I left off, you know?
That sounds like terrible advice. Make games that you like! Not short games just to make as much money as possible and because it's the "meta", that sounds so soulless.
Why develop video games? If it's just about the money, you might as well go back to a normal job.
Yeah, screw devs that want to *checks notes* be able to eat and have a roof over there head! They should just live on passion!
@@ryuusaisai Not everything has to be extreme. I just don't think that either as a game developer or as a player you want these one month games.
Have you _tried_ unicycle pizza time? You knows it's a good game right? Or we wouldn't have 88% positive ratings. -M
You can still make small games and be passionate about it. I'd argue that it's easier to be passionate about a smaller project because long dev times inevitably lead to burnout
@@Dargaran short cycle games =/= bad games. A very short but well executed game can still be great, and I'm all for it.
Did you even try Unicycle Pizza Time?
Nc
I cannot back the narrative of this video. And it's not healthy for the gaming industry as a whole. Steam get's flooded with poor games and hobby projects. They run on servers and serious developers don't want a 40% cut for which is now 30%. Not everyone and his mother needs to be a game developer. And a lot out there wants to be one for the wrong reasons.
This channel is a gold mine for indie developers
Make good games. They can be big small or whatever. Make GOOD games
But making a good games is hard!
Making a small game is much easier to make good, while buildinf experience..
"Just make good gamea" is useless advice.
@@ryuusaisai no its not really useless advice. People don't succeed in gamedev because they don't realize the games they make are not good. It has nothing to do with scope really.
That's the trick isn't it!
It’s so easy! If you’re poor, get money. If you’re sad, just be happy. Don’t make bad games, make good games.
Great tip, this way you build your way forward with smaller potential wins along the way. Plus, if the micro game is super popular you can always do a second installment with more features.
It's also possible to keep adding stuff to the game. See what people are asking for and add stuff that you left out of the initial launch.
If you try to write your "core" code in a modular un-coupled way (even better if you make it its own Plugin/Module) you can then re-use it in your next game (e.g. Settings Menu, Movement Controller) or even re-using the majority of the codebase for more iterative or art direction different game.
Really like your work guys, thanks for the transparency and the way you talk about gamedev in general!
3 months time you are obviously talking about "3 months of Full time work" and with at least some game dev experience. I don't think you can make anything in 3 months if you have only 2 hours a day after work and zero game dev experience. This is at least my case and I was able to make just a solid prototype in one year ;) Ok, it is probably a medium complexity game and not a simple small game, but still...no chance doing anything in 3 months under these circumstances...in my opinion
I wonder how BiteMe Games would make a horror game
Okay so what constitutes a single mechanic like if your making a wizard game is each spell a separate mechanic or with a shooting game is each gun a mechanic? Particularly if they do different things.
It’s a bit grey, but I would say a spell casting mechanic is one medium sized mechanic. The spells shouldn’t be _too_ difficult to differentiate while keeping the code changes contained the specific spell implementation (vs the spell cast inputs and unlocking systems). It can balloon to be too large for 3 months, but most mechanics can do that.
Great content value, thank you Marnix!
There are two reasons you might be making a game or game(s). One is that you want to be a game developer, and it doesn't matter what in particular you make, just that's what you want to do for a living. In this case, the fast shovelware might be the way to go. But the other is that you have a specific game you really want to make, and in that case making some shovelware you're not interested in does not further your goal except insofar as it gives you some experience. And it may be actively counterproductive because making something you have no passion for can turn you off it altogether, whereas if you'd just focused on a game you have actual passion for that can give you the determination to stick with it through thick and thin until it's done.
This is where breaking your game apart is smart. You know you want to make a grand RGP? Prototype an inventory system and make it into a micro game. You can then do the same for other mechanics or systems until you have all the pieces. Or even prematurely start combining the early systems into games in the meantime. Brands are built on iteration. Start with a scale you have means to complete and keep building on that foundation.
@@Nobody6146 this is the way 👆
Problem with many small things scope projects is. Say you make on ever 3 months that is 4 a year for 2 years. You as a single dev now have 6 games to provide support updates and bug fixes for. It has a massive downside as well ulesd of course you are a dodgey dev that do not update support or bug fix that us
Being able to make small commercial game really fast, is something you're also able to do if you have a bit of experience.
Glad to see this studio is still chugging along after it's first release. Love your work!
Great info! Thank you!
Really solid advice.
Here is my idea to make a small scope game. Take an classic game like an atari 2600 game. Then ask a simple question if this game was made today what would it look like. Finally make that game!
I'm definitely making smaller games in the future :'D Who said making an RPG was a good idea?
or be lazy and get a template from the marketplace of choice and focus on adding your art/sound/story 😅
there's an old tweet that said something along the lines of "i want smaller games that are uglier made for less money that cost more and i'm not kidding". seems like that might become the meta! and/or, it's the game jam method 🤔
"I want shorter games with worse graphics made by people who are paid more to work less and I'm not kidding"
@@metallsnubben signed, not a buyer
@@metallsnubben yeaaaah that's it! i love it lol and with self-publishing, it's at least a little more possible. other than steam and other storefronts taking their cuts, of course
@@d3monable Literally true for me, I've spent an order of magnitude more on indie than AAA games and the ones I do get would almost always either be on mega sale or in a bundle
I think the literal only exceptions to that in the last 5 years are The Great Ace Attorney and Guilty Gear Strive
I think I've seen similar yt title too. Something like "I want shorter uglier games" or close to that
Micro Games Tier List!
Small game longer than 2 hours, if not - the refunds will be more than wanted...
No. I will make the most massive game ever.
Nah, I don't play small games. It feels disingenuous to make them.
Even if you don't play them, it's still good to start with small games. If you don't charge some insane amount it shouldn't feel disingenuous to make small games, just because a game is small doesn't mean it can't be really solid.
The creator of pong was disingenuous cause they didn’t play pong esq games prior?
@dobrx6199 That advice doesn't apply to everyone. It depends on your personality and motivation.
I personally have zero interests in making small games because I make games I want to play and small games are games I don't want to play.
Making games as art or as a hobby is totally valid. If you want to consistently make a living, you have to make what people will buy while managing your own expenses. Smaller scope will get most indie devs there faster, if they can make a good game.
@@vaelinalsorna1649 so you'll never create game jam games? A lot of good larger games were originally small game jam games. If you can't shrink your game idea into something small, then you have a scope problem. What are you trying to make? Elden ring? Small games is the way.